so much that it is briefly and playnely so set foorth in the worde of God as I haue shewed in the eyght chapter answering all the textes that you peruert for Onely Scripture namely that text of an Angel from heauen pag. 110. And the place also of Saint Augustine chapter 9. pag. 181. Pur. 333. In so much that where you say therevpon He will not allowe Myracles and Visions for sufficient proofes without the authoritie of the Scriptures you do shamefully abuse your Reader for he saith expresly that whatsoeuer such things are done in the Catholike Church as he there also mentioneth many generally and some particularly therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church And you graunt that these of S. Augustines reporting were done in the Catholike Church Ergo by S. Augustine euen in that place you must allow them and so condemne your owne Religion Motiue 26. 13.15 Honour of Crosses and of Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and of Saintes 17. Exorcismes 18. Destroying of Idolatrie In the next fiue Demaundes I report certaine argumentes made of the old Doctors in their bookes against the Paynims to proue that Christ is God and not their Idolles by certaine pointes of our Religion as the Soueraigne Honor both of his Crosse and of his Saintes and the miraculouse power not onely of them two but also of his Church in her ordinarie exorcismes requiring the Protestantes to helpe here the Paynims if they be eyther able or not ashamed and also in the next Demaund bidding them open their eyes at length and beholde that our Religion hath bene and is the bane of Idolatrie yea and those very pointes of our Religion which their peruerse blindnes counteth and calleth Idolatry it selfe To all this Fulke had nothing but like a Cuckow You haue not saith he destroyed Idolatry Pur. 460. but set vp Idolatrie Not waying what I tell him according to the prophets that we haue so throughly conuerted al Nations from Idolatrie that we haue made them forget also the names of their Idolles Motiue 41. Article 10. 19 Kinges My 19. Demaund is of the Christian Emperours and Kinges of whose conuersion together the Scripture speaketh expresly and of the conuersion of Nations The chiefe of them Fulke nameth here cap. 2. and confesseth with vs and for vs that they were of the true Church in the first 600. yeares yea and chalengeth them to haue bene of his Religion no lesse then we doe But what proufes doth he bring thereof Not one Neither doth he answere so much as any one of our proufes no not that which D. Allen alleageth Pur. 429. how Constantinus honored the Sentence of the Priestes Councell at Nice tanquam a deo prolatam as pronounced of God Pur. 313. Ruff. li. 1. ca. 5. yea he is faine to confesse that in the burial of Constantinus him selfe the very first Christian Emperour Eus in vita Const li. 4 c. 58.59.60.66.71 there was prayer for his soule according to the errour of the time being the time of the first Nicen Counsell In Eusebius is much more Sacrifice also for his soule with the intercession of the Apostles in whose honor it was offered at their Relikes in their Temple Pur. 312. and all by the procurement of ConstaÌ„tinus him self Again That the Emperour Theodosius Iunior prayed for his fathers and mothers soules Arcadius and Eudoria But the storie saith not quoth he that he prayed to S. Chrysostome for them as M. Allen thinketh The storie is Theodorets and his words are these Hist Trip. li. 10. c. 26. ex Theo. l. 5. c. 35.36 Pur. 222.226 Amb. super obitum Theod. And he setting his face and eyes vpon the shrine of that holy man made supplications for his parentes and prayed him vt veniam illis tribueret that he would pardon them the iniuries which of ignorance they had done him in working his death Againe as touching Honorius of the west brother to the said Arcadius of the East wher S. Ambrose saith Eius principis Theodosij Senioris et proximè conclamauimus Obitum et nunc quadragesimum diem celebramus assistente sacris Altaribus Honorio Principe We finished of late vpon the seuenth day this Princes Obite Theodotius Senior their father and now we celebrate his fourtyth day our Prince Honorius standing by the sacred Altares To this Fulke had nothing but partly to reprehend the thing as superstitious both in the Bishop and in the Emperour partely to inueigh blindly against D. Allens translation For Ambrose speaketh not he saith of his fortyth dayes minde but of the solemnitie of his funerall kept 40. dayes togeather As though the fortyth day is not one of the fortie and yet also how playnly he expresseth the singulare solemnitie of the fortyth day as of the Obite before saying And now we celebrate his fortyth day whereas others vse to kepe the Thirde day and the Thirtith which was and is the vse of the Romane Church But the Church of Millaine kept the seuenth day and the fortyth Al this considered who seeth not that aswel the Catholike Emperours within the first 600. yeres be against him as the others of later tymes and therefore that it is but a cast of his facing deceiuing arte that he saith Ar. 33.51 Before the generall Defection and Reuelation of Antichrist it is an easye matter to name you the Emperours and Princes of our Church as Constantine the great See the impudent Heretike them vvhâ—m he condemned before Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Arcadius Honorius Martianus Iustinianus Mauritius diuers other But when the Kings of the earth had coÌ„mitted fornicatioÌ„ with the great Whore of BabyloÌ„ as the holy ghost foresheweth Apo. 17. 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we cannot shew any of them that haue maintained our Religion Your malicious and ignoraÌ„t setting of the Defection Antichrists reuealing at the yere 607 I haue coÌ„futed cap. 8. pag. 126. by the Scriptures most manifestly But that you poynt the same time for the Kinges of the earth to haue fornicated with her your ignorance and malice surmounteth it selfe as it is euideÌ„t by that which I say there pag. 126. that Babylon is this world froÌ„ the beginning to the ending thereof and called a Whore for that it hath such alluremeÌ„ts wherevpon the same S. Iohn exhorteth vs in his Epistle 1. Ioan 2. and saith Loue not the world nor the thinges that are in the world The world is transitorie and also the coÌ„cupiscence of it And therefore in his Apocalipse he maketh her to sit vpon all the earthly worldly Kinges that euer tooke or shall take her parte against Gods Church But your blindnes could finde no earthly Kinges in the world but within these last 900. yeares yea none to be the Kinges of the Earth but those that be the Kinges of the Church and their fornicatioÌ„ to consist In humbly
passing similitude betwene you them in the smoke in the horses in the whole Anatomie of the Locustes and aboue all in the like destroying and sacrilegious wast of Gods Churches and their sacred vessell and holy ornamentes which they shall make in all places as vnto you is permitted of God onely in some places The desolation The like is séene in the Desolation made by you to be made hereafter by Antichrist him selfe it is euen al one and the same but that he shall do vniuersally that which you may not doe but here there he in all the Churches of the world casting out the holy Sacrifice of the Masse with all diuine seruice therevnto belonging as you haue done in all the Churches of Englande and wheresoeuer els you are permitted to set Sedem Satanae your Satanicall seate As he also shall in place of the foresaid dayly Sacrifice bring in his Abomination Abhomination euen him selfe and his Image to be in all Churches adored aboue all Diuinitie O most abhominable desolation So haue you likewise not only made desolation of the Sacrifice but also in stead therof set vp euery where your abhomination of Luthers Caluines inuention the Images also of kings armes in the very place of the most swéete and most glorious Roode yea the Image of a vile Grashopper in a Church that is well knowen in the very place where afore did stande Gods Crucifixe I say not that this is the very selfe Abomination of Antichrist but I say and I say boldly that none other of the olde figures thereof was euer more liuely more nigh more like vnto it not the Idols or Statuees of Iupiter set vp in the Temple by Antiochus in the vmbraticall desolation of that time béeing the time of the Machabées nor the like of certaine Romane Emperours in the vmbratical desolation of their time nor any thing in the sundry vmbraticall desolations by diuerse heresies which S. Basil and other of the holy Fathers haue as it were Ieremies lamentation again pitifully recorded You haue I say in this your vmbraticall desolation pricked beyonde them al approching in the very kind of desolation so much nearer then any to the desolation of Antichrist as you do in time so ioyntly so identically that you haue represented vnto vs a plaine example how a thing it selfe may be a shadow or a figure of the same thing it selfe onely differing in some maner And therefore séeing it hath bene Prophecied that one certayne heresie and that towards the end should so farre pricke beyond all other heresies Apoc. 8. according also to the fourth Trumpet béeing compared with the third that it should be not onely an heresie but also a playne Apostasie whether the same be not this present heresie of yours let the world iudge I do not charge you as you do vs by bare wordes vayne crakes yea and falsifications of the text but I alleage playne Scriptures and I alleage them truly and I conferre diuers places together that one may expoūd another which you are wont to talke so much of but you in talke onely and we in déede Besides much more that I haue if I were the opponent here and not the answerer to proue your Apostasie and that in all the thrée species of Apostasie béeing these Apostasie from Religion Monasticall Apostasie from holy Orders Apostasie from our Christian faith Chalenging you otherwise to ioyne with me vpon my last Demaund in my booke of 51. Demaundes which concerneth your said Apostasie Therfore such being your Newinuented Gospell in this time of the fourth Trumpet no doubt they that embrace the same A Gospell paedagogue to Antichrist wil as readily embrace the next in the time of the fifth Trumpet and againe as readily much more readily embrace Antichrist him selfe in the time of the Churches sixth Trumpet Angelicall For whom and what will not they beléeue which without all proofe yea against so euident Scriptures onely vpon your bold and impudent asseuerations being men so impotent so vnlearned euen in the Scriptures also and so notorious and confessed wicked liuers haue beleued that Christes Vicar and therfore in effect that Christ himselfe is Antichrist that Christes Church the woman clothed with the sunne the new and glorious citie of Hierusalem cōming downe from heauen is the (a) Fulke Ar. 33.38.57.100.102.106 and Pur. 287.298.336.391.409.460 Synagogue of Antichrist the great whore and citie of Babylon No my masters no it wil neuer be Gods elect do to wel know the piller that alwais hath and still must hold them vp in truth euen agaynst the mightie seductions of Antichrist himself of his (b) Apo. 13.16 singular falseprophet and of his thrée lesser and all his other inferiour falseprophetes much more against you And therefore it is not your ignorant and absurd detorting deprauing as the (c) 2. Pet. 3. first of Christes Vicars did tearme it when he gaue vs warning of such felowes of the womans gorgeous garments nor of the seuen hills that can deceiue them no more then the false deprauing of the womans flight whereof I haue already spoken for they know to distinguish the Gorgeous garments vsed always in Gods diuine seruice which your king Abaddon maketh wast and hauocke of The gorgeous garments from the gorgeous prophane garmentes and infinite vayne pompe that the world of the wicked triumpheth in Infra ca. 10 Dema. 21. They know also by the commentarie which the Scripture it selfe maketh what are both the Seuen heades Apo. .17 or Seuen hilles and also the Tenne hornes to wit that they all be kings not the Catholike kings which haue and do so humbly adore our Sion and licke the very dust of her feete knowing that the nation kingdom which serueth not her shal surely perish Esay 49. and 60. but the kings that are with the world against the said Church and people of God So saith the Scripture The seuen heades and hilles The Seauen heades are seuen hilles vpon which the woman sitteth and they are seuen Kings And marke the diuision of them quinque ceciderunt Fiue of them are fallen Who therefore are all the persecuting kings in the time of the Olde Testament before the comming of Christ before the time when this was spoken Vnus est One presently is Who therfore is meant of the Romaine Emperours and al other kings persecuting with them Alius nondum venit c. The other is not yet come and when he commeth he must remayne not a long season as the fiue and as the one but a short season onely thrée yeres and a halfe Who euidently is Antichrist in proper person There haue you playnly the Seuen Now touching the other Tenne this saith the Scripture The ten hornes And the tenne hornes are tenne kings which like as hath bene said of Antichrist haue not yet taken kingdome but they shal take power as kings vna hora post
sense but because his death was so long before preordeined of God and prefigured as the Apostles do often say to stop the mouthes of them that obiected newnesse to our Religion of saluation by a dead man As the like would be a iustification of your new Gospell if you could shew out of Scripture that Luther was preordeined for that purpose Againe in the same place you alleage that Esay speaking of the righteous that are departed out of this life saith that ther is peace and that they shall rest in their beds Esa 57. Like as he affirmeth that Tophoth which is Gehinnone or hell is prepared of old for the wicked Esai 30. Esai speaketh not of his owne time but as a Prophet of the time now since the comming of Christ who is our peace There is peace say you but he saith There shal come peace or as the Churches translation hath no lesse agreably to the Hebrew Let peace come I pray Moreouer if it were graunted that then also they did rest in their beds because the death of the Iust is but a sléepe for the assurāce of their resurrection what were this to their soules Also if their soules did rest must euery rest néedes be the blisse of heauen We say not that Limbus patrum was Purgatory but that it was a place of rest because without poena sensus though not without poena damni for the time Suppose a kings sonne and heire that by some crime deserued disheriting but the king his father of grace will let him inhirite mary not at the time he otherwise should but certayne yeres after yet during those yeres also he shall be well and honorably prouided for may we not say that this man is at ease considering his prouision and yet in punishment also considering his losse for the time Such was their case in Limbo It was not hell you say because it was not Tophet or Gehenna Why our Créede and the Scripture saith that Christes Soule was in hell Infra ca. 12. and yet no man so wicked except it were Caluine him selfe I thinke to say it was in Gehenna Therefore Gehenna or Tophet the place for the wicked was not the onely hell As vaynly and more falsely you argue that it was not hell because Luc. 16. Lazarus was caried by Angels not downe to hell but vp to Abrahams bosome Caried vp is that portari or apenechthinai But the riche man is in hell you say and he looketh vp and seeth a farre of Lazarus in the bosome of Abraham The same wise argument againe In this place this is called hel therfore no other may be called hell although the Scripture it selfe els where nameth to vs another hell The places might in situation at least in respect of the heauenly mantions being so far distant from them both be nigh together although one were vpward and also farr of both in state situation purgatorie peraduenture being betwéene them Againe if it were graunted that they were no way nigh together yet it would not follow that Abrahams bosome was heauen As neyther if Lazarus were caried vpward 4. Reg 2. For so was Elias who yet was not caried into heauen that now we speake of Another of your manifest argumentes being the last in that place If righteousnes belongeth to Abrahams children the reward of righteousnes also pertaineth vnto them Therefore Abrahams bosome was open to receiue all the children of Abrahā euen as Ioan. 1. the bosome of God was ready to receiue Abraham because he was his sonne through faith Nay you should haue said because he was That vvhich is proper to vnigenitus he maketh common to Abraham vnigenitus qui est in sinu patris The onely begotten sonne who is in the bosome of the Father and then you had saide somewhat But these your grosse ignorances in the scripture I must reserue to their own proper Chapter To your argument I say Infra ca. 12. that the reward of righteousnes may belong to one and yet not paide him as soone as he dyeth S. Paule naming both Abraham him selfe and many children of his saith expresly According to faith all these departed Heb. 11. not receiuing the promises but beholding them a farre of And againe And all these renowned by faith receiued not the promise that is the inheritance the reward of righteousnes Pur. 441.451 In two other places also you prate against Limbus but you alleage no other Scripture against it Well then you haue not proued that afore Christes comming any one went to heauen nor that all went straight to Limbus and therefore none to Purgatorie Now whether since Christes comming they all goe straight to heauen and therefore none to Purgatorie let vs likewise examine Whether since Christ all go straight to heauen There is no prayer for the dead nor Purgatory after this life you say because they that liue vnto Christ dye vnto him Pur. 451. and being dissolued are with him Ioa. 17. And in another place more distinctly Pur. 276. We beleue that the soules of the faithful the repentāt are where Christ is as he prayeth Ioa. 17. Father I will that those whom thou hast giuen me where I am they also may be with me that they may see my glory And euen so he saith to the Theefe no perfect iust man but a sinner repentant This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise Luc. 23. And S. Paul desireth to be dissolued and to be with Christ Philip. 1. That to be with Christ is to sée his Godheades glory and not onely his manheades glory would hardly be proued out of the Scripture Yet because it maketh with the foresaid definition of the Church I graunt it So then the example of the Apostle S. Paule declareth that a perfect iust man goeth straight to Christ The example of the Theefe declareth that likewise a penitent sinner goeth straight to Christ if either his penance be full and perfect or his pardon which is a remission of his penance be a plenary And the saying Ioan. 17. specially béeing illustrate with these two examples declareth as much howbeit by it self alone it declareth no more but that they which are Christes may and shall be with Christ but when it sayth not You allude there to one place more which is Rom. 14. We liue to our Lord and we dye to our Lord Whereby he meaneth not that we be with our Lorde when we dye no more then he meaneth that we be with our Lorde when we liue but that both in our life and at our death from the beginning to the end we be not our owne men but seruantes to another and that he therefore is my Iudge if I do not well and not thou also to him I my selfe must make my count and not thou for me This béeing the sense of that place you had forsooth great reason to conferre it with Apoc. 14. to controll S. Augustines sense Pur. 436.446
of faith in time of Heresie and also of communion in time of Schisme S. Hierome was readie to be ruled by the B. of Rome and that all others by his iudgement and expositiō of Scripture must likewise do in so muche that he saith further to Damasus in the same Epistle Whosoeuer gathereth not with thee he scattereth hoc est that is to say Qui Christi non est Leo Epist 89. ad Epis vien proui Antichristi est Whoso is not Christes he is Antichristes because as S. Leo the great saith Petrum in consortium indiuiduae vnitatis assumpsit Christus Christ tooke Peter into the participation of vndiuided vnitie so that it should be all one to be Peters and to be Christes to be in vnitie with Peter and his Successor and to be in vnitie with Christ One more expositor yet you alleage saying Pur. 320. Which of your Prelates will folow Ambrose in his Commentary vpon the Apocalypse where he interpreteth the whore of Babylon to be the citie of Rome I will recite his wordes for you Amdro in Apoc. 17. This whore doth betoken in some places Rome in speciall quae tunc ecclesiam Dei persequebatur which then in S. Iohns time did persecute the Church of God In some places in generall the citie of the Diuell that is to say the whole bodie of the Reprobate Is not this now a perilous point with our Prelates so to touch the citie of Rome in S. Iohns time which did persecute the Church of Rome that is the Clargie and other Christians of Rome But of the Church of Rome the vndoubted Ambrose saith if you remember Ambro. de Sacramen lib. 3. ca. 1. In all thinges I couet to folow the Romane Church so protesting because he had occasion there to defende a certaine custome of his owne Church at Millaine which the Romane Church had not cuius typum in omnibus sequimur et formam whose paterne and samplar we follw in all thinges which notwithstanding he there declareth that other Churches may vpon good cause haue some ceremonie that the Church of Rome hath not Likewise he calleth Peter primum and fundamentum the first and the foundation in the very same place where say you he affirmeth Pur. 320. Ambro. de Inc. d. c. 4.5 that Peter is not the foūdation So faithfully you deale with your Reader He doth there excellently cōfute by Peters confession the Heresies that were against Christes Diuinitie Incarnation While other mens opinions were in rehearsing Peter though alwaies most forward held his peace But when he once heard Vos autē now what do your selues say of me statim loci non immemor sui Primatum egit Immediately being not vnmindefull of his place he exercised the Primacie The Primacie of confession pardie not of worldly honor the Primacie of faith non ordinis not of worldly degree And beneath Faith is the foundation of the Church Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est For it was not said of Peters flesh but of his faith Mat. 16. that the gates of death shal not preuaile against it his confession ouercommeth hel Al which we say in the same maner Heretikes and other ministers of the diuel may preuaile against the flesh of a Pope but his faith but his confession aswell in the articles that be now in controuersie as in those at that time will stand when they shall all be sunke downe into their due place The rest of the Popes Supremacie Ar. 36.37 Pur. 287.373.374 And here by the waye because the place is most conuenient and because it is sone done to answer vnto that you say Ireneus Polycrates Dionysius Alexandrinus Cyprianus the Councell of Africa and Socrates the Historiographer did preach or write against the Popes authoritie when it first began to aduance it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastasius Innocētius Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus I say first that all those Popes were of the true Church by your owne confession here cap. 2. and therefore you are contrarie to your selfe in making other Popes to be Antichrist for claiming suche authoritie as these did Secondly that all those writers did communicate with those Popes And therefore your Schismaticall separation hath no helpe of them Thirdly that no one of them wrot against the Popes authoritie as you pretend What did they then of Ireneus Polycrates and Dionysius touching S. Victor and of Cyprianus touching S. Stephanus I report the trueth here ca. 10. in the 28. demaund Cyp. ep 55 68. seu li. 1. Ep. 3.4 The same S. Cyprian doth exhort S. Cornelius to be as stout in not loosing certaine Africane heretikes vnder the degrée of Bishops as their owne Bishop had bene in binding them He also noteth in S. Stephanus some litle negligence but much more wilfull obreption in those two lapsed Bishops of Spaine Basilides and Martialis who had cōcealed from him the truth that in their supplication they should haue expressed which because they did not he sayth wel that their restitution by the Pope could not stand them in stéede against their former deposition by the Bishops of their owne prouince This which so plainely maketh for the Popes authoritie you are so blinde to bring against it As concerning the Councels of Africa Milenis the question betwene them those other fiue Popes was not about the matters of the vniuersal Church as for example matters of the faith quoties fidei ratio ventilatur for such matters they also them selues did referre to the Apostolike iudgement of those Popes antiquae scilicet regulae et traditionis formam secuti quam toto semper ab orbe mecum nostis esse seruatam Apud Aug Epi. 94.93 Innocē ad Con. Cart. Milenit Aug. e. 106. Con. Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. De pec ori con Pelag. cap. 8. following the forme of the old tradition and Canon which saith Pope Innocentius vnto them in those Epistles which S. Augustin being one of them doth often commend most highly as very answerable to the Sea Apostolike you as well as I do know to haue bene kept alwaies of all the world but about matters of perticuler persons as Appeales of Bishops And that question also was not about the Popes authoritie therin but what order the Nicene Councel which first was confirmed and always afterward most exactly obserued of S. Peters Sée as Municipall lawes are of good kings had taken therein And of the inferior Cleargie there was no such question but they should holde them selues quiet with the iudgement of theyr owne prouince if not of their owne Bishop without appealing further according to Con. Aphric cap. 92. which you alleage and according to Concil Sardicen Can. 17. which is alleaged Concil Carthag 6· cap. 6. 7. But that Bishops might so appeale the Popes auouched both by the old continual custome Con. Cart. 6. ca. 2. wherof no man can denie but there
adoring her Esa 49.60 licking the very dust of her feete which they are cōmaunded by the Prophet to do vnder paine of Damnation Ar. 17. Discipline And thereupon D. Allen told you that to be the true Church Which exerciseth Discipline vpon offenders in all degrees And that al true the Christian Kings haue and doe obey her accordingly which is an vnuincible argument for vs against you in this Demaund And yet you haue Kings on your side also since the Reuelation of Antichrist Ar. 33.34.32 The Grecian Emperours that were Image-breakers Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images and called Bertrame to declare his mind vpon the Real presence and transubstantiation and those Princes that defended their maried Priests But least we should obiect that it was but in one or two poynts that these did fauour you Edward the third defended Wickleue Also Zisca Procopius defended the Bohemians and George king of Bohemia was depriued of his kingdome by the Pope for defending the Protestants An. 1466. Which is wel towards an hundred yeres before the name of Protestants by your own confession here Dem. 8. and much more before the religion of the Protestants was coyned For though you say Wickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion yet you may sée in my 40. Dem. that in déede he was not neither also the Bohemians or Hussits But that Edward the third was a Wickleuist who euer heard though I denie not but that Catholike Princes are often times passing negligent in their office and othe to extirpate Heresies vntill by God and his Churches admonition on the one side and by the wast on thother side that Heretikes in time doe make both spiritually and temporally of all Common wealthes they be spurred therevnto The like absurd ignoraunce in stories or rather malice you and your brethren declare in saying that fonde booke against Images to be Charles the greates who was cleane contrarie Cop. Dial. 4. c. 18.19 Sander de Imag. li. 2. ca. 5. an enimie of the Image-breakers as is at large learnedly declared in M. Copes Dialogues Neither is it Carolus Magnus but Carolus rex brother to Lotharius the Emperor An. 840. by Trithemius to whō Bertrame wrote De corpore sanguine Domini Neither was that as the learned thinke for good causes this Hereticall booke which Oecolampadius set foorth vnder Bertrames name And is not this a substantiall reason He declared that he liked not the Real presence and Transubstantiation in that he called Bertrame to declare his mind of that matter How much better may I reason that both the Emperour or King and all Christendome held the Real presence and transubstantiation because this Bertrame durst not but so timerously about the bush after the maner of all heretikes in the beginning go against it as we sée in that booke No no syr As I said before of Nations so I say of Princes If any were euerted he might in some thing fall on your side But those Princes in al countries that were cōuerted from Paganisme also their Successors that continued in their steppes were in no poynt yours but ours in all things 20 In all Persecutions Motiue 15. Article 7. My 20. Dem. is of the persecutions both before the Emperours became Christians also afterwards whē some of thē were peruerted againe with Apostasie or Heresie saying that the Religion which we reade of in those times béeing the Religion of all Martyrs and by Fulkes confession here cap. 2. pag. 4. Pur. 258.312 Ar. 23.24.25 of the true Church is in al poynts ours and in no one poynt the Protestants And to this he hath nothing but only this that all true saints held the foundation Iesus Christ which we do in his sense he doth not in the true sense as I shewed cap. 5. and therefore forsooth it is proued that they all were of his Church notwithstanding he is fayne to say that some of them buylded straw and stubble vpon the foundation they were ours so playnly in many things as he confesseth cap. 3. yea and in all things as I shew cap. 9. In so much as they haue scraped most of their names out of the Callender wherof I shall speake more Dem. 46. Motiue 33. Article 14. 21. Churches In the 21. Demaund I chalenge for ours the auncient Christian churches with their furniture both afore and after the conuersion of the Romane Emperours also in our country namely as in all others And Fulke no lesse chalengeth them to his side here cap. 2. pag. 6. But before we come to the particulers let vs see his answere to D. Allens argument What if it were graunted that all Churches that now remayne Ar. 53. Pur. 339.340 that he addeth whereas D. Allen speaketh generally were buylded by Papists and for Popish vses what haue you wonne thereby As much as néedeth I thinke Why not For the same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a Temple in all the world that was not buylded by Idolaters and to mainteine Idolatrie Were that the same chalenge I pray you The Apostles renounced both those Temples and that Religion you renounce Popish religion but do you also renounce al Churches that now remayne If you do then you renounce also the Churches of the first 600. yeres for innumerable of them as at Rome c. now also remaine But because you may not leaue to vs the Churches of that time also for feare of afterclaps you thinke good to come to the matter and to say But for all your bragges we are able to shew that such Churches as were buylded by true Christians were not buylded to such end as yours are Constātinus Magnus was a true Christian with you also and of him I told you erewhile in the 19. Dem. out of Eusebius that he builded Apostolorum templum A temple of the twelue Apostles in his citie of Constantinople appoynting his owne body to lye in the midle of their 12. shrines Vt defunctus queque precationum quae ibidem essent ad Apostolorum gloriam offerendae particeps efficeretur That also after his death he might be partaker of the prayers whiche there should be offered to the Apostles glory And at his burial accordingly Much people with the Priests preces pro anima Imperatoris Deo fundebant made prayers to God for his soule And likewise to this day we sée saith Eusebius that he enioyeth there the diuine Ceremonies and the Mysticall Sacrifice the societie of the holy prayers This was his end among others and the same was the end of al our Church founders a Pur. 338. to 347. saith D. Allen. Not so saith Fulke for b Pur. 339. Ar. 52.57 Fulk is no babe you may see our Stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this Land to Christianitie the Temples of the Pagane Britons and of the Idolatrous
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So