John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
of the Reign of our said Lord now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly and traiterously devised composed and writ two other Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of the said French King to the intent that he the said Monsieur Le Chese should intreat procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King from the aforesaid French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom of England then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And that the aforesaid Edward Coloman in further prosecution of his Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our said now Lord the King the aforesaid several Letters from the said Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did send into Parts beyond the Seas there to be delivered to the said Monsieur Le Chese And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the First Day of December in the Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord CHARLES the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid one Letter from the aforesaid Mounsieâ—r Lâ— Chesâ— in answer to one of the said Letters so by him the said Edward Coleman writ and to the said Monsieur Lâ— Cheâ—e to be sent first mentioned falsly subtilly and traiterously received and that Letter so in answer received the Day and Year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman the Letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously detained concealed and kept By which said Letter the said Monsieur Le Chese the day and year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid signified and promised to the said Edward Coleman to obtain for him the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the Tenth day of December in the abovesaid Twenty seventh Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous Designs and Purposes aforesaid to one Monsieur Roâ—vigni then Envoy Extraordinary from the French King to our said most Serene King at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid residing to move and excite him the said Envoy Extraordinary with him the said Edward Coleman in his Treasons aforesaid to partake And the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he the said Edward Coleman afterward to wit December 19. in the abovesaid 27 th year of the Reign of our said Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of S. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid advisedly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise compose and write three other Letters to be sent to one Sir William Throgmorton Knt. then a Subject of our now Lord the King of this Kingdom of England and residing in France in Parts beyond the Seas to sollicite him the aforesaid Monsieur Le Chese to procure obtain of the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence aforesaid And those Letters last mentioned afterwards to wit the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid to the same Sir William Throgmorton in France aforesaid falsly and traiterously did send and cause to be delivered against the duty of his Allegiance and against the Peace of our said now Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in such case made and provided Wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the Sheriff of the County aforesaid that he should not omit c but that he should take him if c. to answer c And now to wit on Saturday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edw. Coleman under the Custody of Will. Richardson Gent Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate by vertue of the King 's Writ of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the Marshal c. and presently of the Premisses to him above imposed being asked how he will thereof be acquitted saith that he is in no wise thereof guilty and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the Country Therefore let a Jury thereupon come before our Lord the King at Westminster on Wednesday next after fifteen days of St. Martin and who c. to recognize c. because c. the same day is given to the said Edward Coleman c. under the custody of the said Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until c. At which Wednesday next after fifteen days of St Martin before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edward Coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid by vertue of a Writ of our Lord the King of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid Keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid And the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid by the Sheriff of the County aforesaid hereunto impannelled being called came who being chosen tryed and sworn to speak the Truth upon the Premisses say upon their Oaths that the aforesaid Edward Coleman is guilty of the High Treason aforesaid in the Indictment aforesaid specified in manner and Form as by the said Indictment above against him his supposed and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman at the time of perpetration of the High Treason aforesaid or at any time afterwards had no Goods Chattels Lands or Tenements to the knowledge of the Jurors aforesaid And the aforesaid Edward Coleman
order to this Design Letters came also in June from St. Omers which gave them an account That Father Beddingfield had assured them of the Dukes willingness to comply with them for the advancement of the Catholick Religion My Lords after I had stay'd some time there and had passed through the Country for the business of the Society I found that in the Court of Spain some Ministers of that Court had been very ready to advance Money which Money was returned for England and that the Father Provincial of the Jesuits of Castile by his care and industry had advanced Ten Thousand Pound which was promised to be paid in June following within a Twelvemonth after My Lords in July I received Letters out of England wherein an account was given there to the Fathers in Spain That they were sending them a Mission of Twelve Students Four whereof were to go to Madrid and Eight to Validolid the Conductors of these Twelve Students were one Father Crosse that was his true Name and one Father Mumâ—ord whose true Name was Armstrong These Missioners arrived in December where they had a Sermon preached at their coming by this same Armstrong wherein the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were declared to be Antichristian Heretical and Devillish in which the Kings Legitimacy was vilified and abused and that his Religion did intitle him to nothing but sudden death and destruction in that he appeared an enemy both to God and Man These were the Contents of that Sermon as near as I remember My Lords after the meeting with several Letters there in July August and September in the Kingdom of Spain it was ordered I should return for England and in the month of November I came for England at which time I had Letters from the Provincial of Castile called by the Name of Padre Hieronymo de Corduba who did in his Letter assure the Provincial in England and the Fathers here That the ten thousand Pound should be paid as I said hefore in June following When I came for England at London I was lodged at one Grigson's that lived in Drury-lane near the Sign of the Red-Lyon and there I lay till I went to St. Omers and by the Provincial and the Consultors of the Province I was ordered a maintenance and it was paid to this man for entertaining of me I went and brought these Letters to this Strange and there was Father Keins lying ill upon Strange's Bed and Keins was saying he was mighty sorry for honest William so they called the Russian that was to kill the King that he had missed in his Enterprize But my Lords this I think good to tell your Lordships they were not so zealous for the destruction of the King till the King had refused Coleman the dissolving of the long Parliament Then they were more intent upon it though they had several times attempted it ever since the Fire of London but when Coleman was refused the Dissolution of the Long Parliament then were they more zealous for the Destruction of the King but the Design for the introducing the Popish Religion they have been carrying on some years before the Fire by those instruments some of whom are yet alive My Lords I left England in November old stile and December new stile for when I came to St. Omers it was as near as I can remember the 9. or 10. of December according to the stile of the place I carryed with me a Packet of Letters from Strange the Provincial and other Fathers that were of the Consult for the Province of England to the Fathers at St. Omers wherein Strange did tell them that they had great hopes of their Design taking effect the next year but as yet it would not be effected he said therefore they at London thought it fit to suspend it till they saw what the Parliament would do And he did in the same Letter declare That the Parliament would be about a long Bill that had been brought into the Commons House some Sessions before but he did not Question but that the Catholick Party would evade that Bill And My Lords in that year some time after we had a Letter from our New Provincial whose true Name was Whitebread and his counterfeit Name White This Father writes to the Fathers at St. Omers and therein he does order one Conyers to preach upon St. Thomas of Canterburies Day and he did therein also tell them that he would be as zealous for the carrying on of the Design as his Predecessor had been and a Sermon was accordingly preached at the Sodality Church wherein after he had commended the Saint whose Day they celebrated for his great Vertues declaring how unworthily he was sacrificed he did inveigh against the Tyranny as he called it of temporal Princes and particularly of the King of England and when he came to speak of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy he declared that he looked upon them as Antichristian and Devillish and that it was fit to destroy all such as would countenance them We have done with the year 77. and we come now to January 1678. Lord High Stew. You speak of one Keins who lying upon Stranges Bed said he was sorry honest Will had missed his Enterprize You have not explained who that honest Will was explain that Dr. Oats It was Grove Lord High Steward But about what did he say he was sorry for him Dr. Oats That he had missed his Design Mr. Foley What was that missing of his Design Dr. Oats That he had not killed the King My Lords in January 78. Lord High Steward You mean according to the Foreign stile Dr. Oats Yes according to the Foreign stile My Lords we received Letters out of Ireland and there my Lords we found by the Contents of those Letters that they were as busie in Ireland as we were in England We found there that the Talbots and other persons were very zealous in raising of Forces and were resolved to let in the French King provided that the Parliament should urge the King to break with France My Lords likewise in January as near as I can remember Morgan was sent into Ireland as a Visitor which is something a better place than a Provincial but only it is but temporary for the time he visits and he returns in February or March and gives an account how ready the Irish were to vindicate their freedom and their Religion from the oppression of the English as they called it My Lords in February some were employed to go into some parts of Germany to Liege and to some parts of Flanders to see how the affairs there stood and how their Correspondencies stood to see whether there was not an interruption in the Correspondencies My Lords upon their return they found that the Fathers at Ghent were inclined to take into this business the secular Clergy but the Fathers of St. Omers together with the Provincial did refuse the motion because the secular Clergy were more
when the Collectors came to the Convent of our Fryers in Sligoe all the Fryers gathered together into a room and these Collectors coming in did read their Commission given them from one James Taaffe as they said and I was there personally present though a Novice and upon reading their Commissions they said Forty Shillings was to be paid by the Prior and the Fryers of that Convent and the Provincial of the Order of the Dominicans questioned the Power of the said Reynolds and Berne and so did the Prior and I asked why the money was levyed they gave answer That that levy and several other levyes was to encourage the French King in whose Kingdom were several Bishops of Ireland Clergymen and others whose business it was to provoke the King to bring an Army to invade Ireland when ever time should serve Lord High Stew. Have you done with him now Mr. Treby Yes Lord High Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford My Question is only whether he profess himself of the Church of Rome or a Protestant Mr. Dennis I am a Roman Catholick still my Lord. L. High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis I am my Lords Lord Stafford Then I have no more to say Sir John Trevor Then we call Mr. Jenison Who was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Jenison you have been among the Papists and you have had great confidence among them pray declare what you know of their Designs for the Destruction of the Protestant Religion or the means of doing it whether by the Murder of the King or what other means tell your whole knowledge Mr. Jenison My Lords In the beginning of the year 78. I have heard Mr. Ireland and Mr Thomas Jenison both Jesuits speak of a Design they had to gain a toleration of Conscience for their Party in England and the way then designed to get it was by procuring a great Sum of Money from their Party and by bribing the then Parliament I have heard them likewise discourse of securing the Duke of York's Succession and that they told me was to be done by procuring of Commissions to be granted to those of their Party to be ready to rise upon the Death of the King I likewise have heard them discourse of the necessity and usefulness to their Party of the Alteration of the Government established and that their Religion could never flourish till that was done and this Kingdom altered according to the French Model In the month of June 78 I was at Mr. Ireland's Chamber and there happening a discourse that the Roman Catholick Religion was like to come into England Mr. Ireland did then say there was but one that stood in the way and that it was an easie thing to Poyson the King and that Sir George Wakeman might easily and opportunely do it I asked Mr. Ireland whether Sir George Wakeman was the Kings Physician His answer was No but he was the Queens and so might have an opportunity to do it In the month of August the same year the day that I came from Windsor I went to Mr. Ireland's Chamber and I found he was newly come from Staffordshire and was drawing off his Boots on the frame of a Table he asked me whence I was come I told him from Windsor He inquired of me about the Diversions of the Court I told him I understood His Majesty did take delight in Hawking and Fishing but chiefly in Fishing and that he went accompanied only with two or three early in the morning Then Mr. Ireland replyed He were easily taken off or removed to which I answered God forbid being surprized at that time O said he I say not that it is lawful Then there happened some interruption to our Discourse about Staffordshire then we fell into a Discourse of their Religion that he said was suddenly to come into England and he asked me if I would be one of those that would go to Windsor to assist to take off the King I told him no then he told me he would remit the 20 l. I owed him if I would go to Windsor to be one of those that were to take off the King My Lords I told him I would have no hand in any such matter and that I would not for twenty times 20 l. have any hand in the Death of the King said he Would you do nothing for the bringing in of our Religion I told him I thought it would never come in by blood I told him further God forgive me if the King were taken off so well and good but I would have nothing to do with it He left not the Discourse there but asked me if I knew any Irishmen that were stout and couragious I told him yes I did and named Captain Levallian Mr. Karney Mr. Broghall and Mr. Wilson all Gentlemen of my acquaintance about Grays-Inn When I named these he asked me if I would go along with them to Windsor to assist them in taking off the King I told him I did not think any man of Estate would ingage in such a matter that I was Heir to an Estate my Brother being a Priest and that Captain Levallian was Heir to a very good Estate and therefore I did believe he would not do such a thing unless the Pique which he had to the King or Religion might move him to it My Lords be approved of these persons and said he knew the first two of them Levallian and Karney and he set down as I remember the other two Names in writing He told me he was going to the Club to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Levallian and Mr. Karney at that time and then asked me for the Money the Twenty pounds that I owed him He told me he wanted Fourscoure Pounds and he desired me that I would return it as soon as I came into the Countrey Now my Lords the same day that I received this Twenty pound of Ireland I went with Mr. Thomas Jenison the Jesuit to Harcourts Chamber to give the Fathers thanks for the Loan of the Money and there Mr. Jenison falling into Discourse on that common Topick of their Religion coming into England he did then use that Expression which Dr. Oats hath in his Narrative If C. R. would not be R. C. he should not be long C. R. And he did interpret it thus in Latine Si Carolus Rex non esset Rex Catholicus non foret din Carolus Rex And he did add my Lords upon the Discourse that if the King were Excommunicated or Deposed he was not longer King and it was no sin or no great sin to take him off and if it were discovered who did it two or three might perhaps suffer but denying the Fact the matter soon would be blown over My Lords about two Months after the Mustering the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath Mr. Thomas Jenison did tell me he had a matter of great Consequence to impart to me that there was a Design on foot so laid as that it could not well be
when we come to the particulars Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships favour we have opened our Case first that we would go on with the general while we are upon that head we will only call those that speak to the general but it may happen that one Witness may speak to both but we shall divide his Testimony when we come to observe upon it Mr. Treby My Lords I take leave to acquaint your Lordships that Mr. Dugdale hath but a low voice and your Lordships will not hear him without a Command of Silence which was done by Proclamation and Mr. Dugdale sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale take notice We call you now only to the general part of the Plot what Discourses you have heard from Priests in general concerning any part of the Plot. And you are not to give your particular Evidence against this Noble Lord my Lord Stafford till we call you thereunto Lord High Stew. What say you Sir Mr. Dugdale About fifteen or sixteen Years I have been acquainted that there was a Design carrying on for the bringing in the Romish Religion I have at several times by the means of my Ghostly Father that was Mr. Evers been acquainted that there were several Lords and several Priests in several places in England that were to carry it on that is they were to have Mony and Arms ready for those that wanted against the death of the King I have seen several Letters which have come from Paris Rome and St. Omers all relating to this to incourage Mr. Evers and that he should go on to incourage the rest that were ingaged For that purpose I read some of them and intercepted them because they were all directed to me Mr. Evers hath sent me upon Messages sometimes by Letters and sometimes by word of mouth and all tended for the introducing of their Religion that all should be ready with Money and Arms against the Kings Death For I did hear nothing till of late about the killing of the King In particular there came one Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford to shew that things went on well beyond Sea and hoped they did so here I saw another time some Letters which were also transmitted to my hands by a Messenger that came from Boscobel which did come from Paris and so to St. Omers from whence they came to Harcourt and Harcourt had delivered the Letters to have the opinion of some Lords All which contained advice which they had received from Paris which they counted extraordinary good The purport of these Letters were to shew there was no way could be more likely to do their Work than if any sudden death should happen to the King then to throw it upon the Presbyterians who had killed the old King and were likeliest to be thought to have done this and so they might easily get the Protestants those of the Church of England to join with the Papists against the Presbyterians who would by that become odious and so should weaken the party the more easily to accomplish their design I have of late several times been in company with Priests and other Gentlemen in the Country when they have had Consultations both for the introducing their own Religion aud taking away the Kings life which they did always intend to be about November December or January 78. It was late in the Year but all that Year 78. this was their Consultation I have been sent to the Jesuits some of them particularly to Mr. Vavasor and Mr. Gavan for some Moneys for there was a general Collection and there was the sum of five hundred pounds at one time which I received and gave to Mr. Evers and he returned it to London for the carrying on this design and for discharging an account of Arms and things received from beyond Sea And it was agreed that my Lord Aston Sir James Symons and others should go in October 1678. to dispose of the Arms which they had so received some here and some beyond Sea to the value I heard say of 30000. Moreover I did hear that they were to have men raised there as well as here So I have heard from Mr. Evers and Mr. Gavan and others and I have been also by when it hath been discoursed that the King of France was acquainted with all these Designs and that he would furnish us with men and should not be wanting with all other aid and assistance if there should be any alteration if the King should die or be taken away or to that purpose I have been several times put upon to make Foot-Races to draw people together that they might the better have Discourses together without suspicion I was likewise put in trust by the Jesuits all the while the Plot was carrying on and particularly for two years all the Letters relating to the Plot came to my hand some of which I opened and some I kept in my own hands and particularly I had one that came to my hands which was about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey for when I carried it to Mr. Evers he said There was one of our Enemies taken out of the way and it was contained in the Letter This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched which by the date of it was the 12. of October 1678. I told him that that would prove a discouragement to us and would be the ruine of all the Design he said not so it would rather prove otherwise for he was one that was active in punishing lewd and debauched persons and it would rather be put upon them than us as done out of Revenge Mr. Treby Pray Sir speak the particular time when that Letter came into Staffordshire Mr. Dugdale The 14. of October 1678. which was Monday Mr. Treby The date of it pray tell us Mr. Dugdale The 12. of October 1678. Mr. Treby The very night that it was done Mr. Dugdale Likewise when I did hear there was like to be an alteration in the Government and having such fair promises I was incouraged to it and was very willing to contribute to the Design and I did then make over an Estate which I had of four hundred pound value for that purpose and for the praying for my Soul And when my Lord Aston and I should come to Account as there was money over and above due to me I did likewise promise because I saw money would be wanting I would give them a hundred pound more There were several other Gentlemen as Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons my Lord Aston Mr. Draycott Mr. Howard and Mr. Gerard who did to my knowledge contribute towards the carrying on of this Charge for defraying of Money and raising Arms and paying for them And I have seen Letters from beyond Sea that have been to Mr. Evers that all things have been ready as to the Arms and there only wanted Orders how they should be disposed of and I have been several times brought to the Oath of Secrecy for fear I
being asked if he hath any thing or knows what to say for himself why the Court here ought not to proceed to Judgment and Execution of him upon the Verdict aforesaid saith nothing but as before he had said And hereupon instantly the Attorney General of our said Lord the King according to due form of Law demandeth against him the said Edward Judgment and Execution to be had upon the Verdict aforesaid for our Lord the King Whereupon all and singular the Premisses being viewed and by the Court here understood It is considered That the said Edward Coleman be led by the said Keeper of the Gaol of Newgate aforesaid unto Newgate aforesaid from thence directly be drawn to the Gallows of Tyburn and upon those Gallows there be hanged and be cut down alive to the Earth and his Entrals be taken out of hiâ— Belly and be burned he still living and that the Head of him be cut off and that the Body of him be divided into Four parts and that those Head and Quarters be put where our Lord the King will assign them c. L. Staff I do not hear one word he says my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this does not concern your Lordship any further than as to the generality of the Plot. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have now done with our Proofs for the first general head that we opened which was to make it out that there was a Plot in general We now come to give our particular Evidence against this very Lord and before we do begin we think fit to acquaint your Lordships that our Evidence will take up some time if your Lordships will have the patience to hear it now we will give it but if your Lordships will not sit so long till we can finish it it may be some inconvenience to us to break off in the middle And therefore we humbly offer it to your Lordships consideration whether you will hear it now or no. L. H. Stew. If it cannot be all given and heard now it were better all should be given to morrow Sir Will. Jones If your Lordships please then we will reserve it till to morrow L. Staff My Lords I would only have your directions whether I shall answer this General first or stay till all be said against me That which I have to say to this General will be very short L. H. Stew. My Lord you are to make all your Answer entire and that is best for you L. Staff I am very well contented that I may be the better prepared for it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn into the Parliament Chamber Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chember And the Lords went away in the same Order they came The Commons returned to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and then the House Adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning The Second Day Wednesday December 1. 1680. A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they intend to proceed to the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford at ten of the clock this morning in Westminster-Hall Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the Commons came into Westminster Hall in the new erected Court And the Managers appointed by the Commons went into the Room prepared for them in that Court to proceed to the particular Evidence against William Viscount Stafford About ten of the clock in the morning the Lords came into the said Court in their former Order and Proclamation being made of Silence and for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar they proceeded L. H. Stew. My Lords expect you should go on with your Evidence and proceed in the Tryal of this Noble Lord. L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I humbly desire that my Counsel may be near me for the Arguing of what is fit to them to speak to as to points of Law for points of Fact I do not desire it L. H. Stew. My Lord you have an Order for your Counsel to attend and they must and ought to attend Mr. Serjeant Maynard The Counsel must not suggest any thing to him while the Evidence is giving they are not to be heard as to matter of Fact L. H. Stew. It is not intended to make use of Counsel as to matter of Fact but they may stand by Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords they may stand within hearing but not within prompting L. Staff I assure you if I had all the Counsel in the world I would not make use of them for any matter of Fact Mr. Treby My Lords will you please to order them to stand at a convenient distance that they may not prompt the Prisoner Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hope your Lordships will consider that a man in a Capital Cause ought not to have Counsel to matter of Fact 'T is true he may advise with his Counsel I deny it not but for him in the face of the Court to communicate with his Counsel and by them be told what he shall say as to matters of Fact is that which with submission is not to be allowed If your Lordships order they shall be within hearing I do not oppose it but then I desire they may stand at that distance that there may be no means of intercouse unless points in Law do arise L. H. Stew. You were best make that exception when there is Cause for it in the mean time go on with your Evidence Sir Franc. Winn. We did perceive his Counsel came up towards the Bar and very near him and therefore we thought it our duty to speak before any inconvenience happened This Lord being accused of High Treason the allowing of Counsel is not a matter of Discretion If matters of Law arise all our Books say that Counsel ought to be allowed But we pray that there may be no Counsel to advise him in matter of Fact nor till your Lordships find some Question of Law to arise upon the Evidence L. H. Stew. When there is Cause take the Exception but they do not as yet misbehave themselves Mr. Treby My Lords we presume your Lordships did from the strength and clearness of yesterdays Evidence receive full satisfaction concerning the general Plot and Conspiracy of the Popish Party It being an Evidence apparently invincible not out of the mouths of two or three Witnesses only but of twice that number or more credible persons Upon which we doubt not but your Lordships who hear and Strangers and unborn Posterity when they shall hear will justifie this Prosecution of the Commons and will allow that this Impeachment is the proper voice of the Nation crying out as when the knife is at the throat By the Evidence already given I say it is manifeâ—t that there was a general grand Design to destroy our
he knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago if I be not mistaken he says so Mr. Dugd. My Lords if your Lordships please to give me leave to explain my self further it was not for taking away the life of the King but for making ready against the King died with Men and Arms. L. Staff My Lords he says in the latter end of August or beginning of September I told him such and sucâ— things I desire he may name the day that may be many days and I may prove I was not there and I can prove for all August and a good while in September therefore I desire he may name the day L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford I come thus near on purpose to serve your Lordship that you may not strain your voice too much but I am not so happy as to apprehend what it is you say L. Staff My Lords I say he speaks of the latter end of August or beginning of September which is too great a latitude and I conceive more than ought to be given in such a matter of importance as this is to me I desire he may name the day for he may name days perhaps that I was not there L. H. Steward Look you Mr. Dugdale my Lord does desire if you can you would be a little more particular than about the latter end of August or the beginning of September if you can remember the day tell it us Mr. Dugd. I cannot remember particular days it being a thing I then took no account of only this I do remember by a remarkable circumstance that one time was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. H. Stew. That was the time of your coming into his Chamber and his offering you five hundred pound Mr. Dugd. It was so but other meetings I dare not charge to a day Lord Stafford How then can I make my Defence Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford How my Lords can I be able to give an account of it I shall prove to your Lordships that he once said it was in August now he says it was in August or September I beseech you that he may positively stand to the month if not to the day Mr. Dugdale I speak as neer as I can Lord Stafford But he says the 20. or 21. particularly Mr. Dugdale Thereabouts I am sure it was Lord Stafford Look you he will be positive in nothing Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford If he swears false in one thing I hope upon proof of that your Lordships will believe he may be false in all I pray he may be asked what hour of the day it was whether it was morning or afternoon L. H. Steward He is positive only to the 20. or 21. of September the time when he says you called for him into your Chamber and offered him five hundred pound to kill the King would your Lordship ask him whether it were in the forenoon or afternoon Lord Stafford Yes my Lord I would Lord High Steward Was it in the forenoon or in the afternoon Mr. Dugdale It was in the forenoon for I did formerly speak of that he was dressing himself when I came in L. H. Steward Then that is answered positively Lord Stafford My Lords he says one Sunday morning I came to my Lord Astons to Mass I desire you would please to ask him whether ever he saw Mr. Evers and me in his life alone together L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford and Mr. Evers ever together alone Mr. Dugdale Several times I have seen them walking together in the Garden and in the Walks at my Lord Astons and I have been with them my self when there hath been only them two besides L. H. Stew. That is answered fully will your Lordship ask him any thing else Lord Stafford He says he was to go to London in October with me I stand not upon that till I come to make my Answer but I take it he says the 20. or 21. of September when I offered him five hundred pound in my Chamber to kill the King that he went presently to Evers to speak with him about it Lord High Stew. As doubting the payment of the money and he told him that Harcourt and Ireland would pay it Lord Stafford Was it the same day pray ask him my Lords Mr. Dugdale I do not say it was the same day but it was the next time I could come to speak with him Lord High Steward He tells you it was as soon as he could speak with him Lord Stafford He said before it was presently after he went from me I desire your Lordships would take notice how he contradicts himself in every circumstance Lord High Stew. What say you did you go presently to Mr. Evers after my Lord Stafford had made the offer Or was it the same day or the next day Mr Dugdale To the best of my remembrance it was the same day I can't say positively Lord Stafford My Lords I have no other Questions with Dugdale Sir John Trevor Then my Lords we will call another Witness Lord High Steward Have you no more to say to Dugdale my Lord Lord Stafford Not at present till I come to make my defence Lord High Stew. God forbid but you should have leave to say all that you can for your self Mr. Treby Then set up Dr. Oats Do your Lordships require that he should be sworn again Lord Stafford I desire nothing nor propose it if he will declare upon his Oath that he took yesterday Lord High Stew. Heark you Dr. Oats This is but a continuation of the Proceedings yesterday you are upon the same Oath now that you were then and what you say this morning will be taken to be upon the same Oath Mr. Treby Dr. Oats upon the Oath you have taken yesterday Lord High Stew. Pray swear him again which was done Mr. Treby Dr. Oats Pray speak your knowledge of my Lord Stafford's being ing aged in the Design Dr. Oats I desire I may be left to my own method L. H. Steward Go on in your own method Dr. Oats My Lords in the year 67. there were divers attempts upon the life of the King as the Jesuits told me and in the year 74. there was an attempt upon the account of the Kings withdrawing the Indulgence in 74. and 75. in the year 1677. whilst I was in Spain I met with several letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did assure the Jesuits in Spain that were of the Irish Nation how zealous he should appear in the promoting of the Catholick Design My Lords in the year 77. I went to St. Omers and I came there in December My Lords in that year I being ordered to look over the Papers and put them in order I found several Letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did intimate to the Fathers that whereas there had been some difference betwixt him and the Society for several years
Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw the man before in my life I will ask him one Question since he hath been pleased to swear against me Mr. Turbervile My Lords I had no reason but the truth to do it for I never received any injury from his Lordship in my life L. Stafford It seems I had ill luck to choose this man for an attempt to Kill the King who was such a Coward he ran away from his Colours and was to have been shot to death Mr. Turbervile Ask the Duke of Monmouth what Character he received of me L. Stafford He says in the year 75. he went from London to Doway and staid some time there and then came back to England I beseech your Lordships to ask him what time he went back to Paris L. H. Steward What time was it that you went back to Paris Mr. Turbervile Truly my Lord I cannot be punctual to a fortnight but I believe it was the beginning of June L. H. Steward What year Mr. Turbervile 75. Lord Stafford My Lords I would know who recommended him to me to go over with me into England Lord High Steward Who recommended you to my Lord Stafford to go into England Mr. Turbervile My Lords it was Father Sherborn who was then Prior of the Benedictine Monks in Paris and Father Nelson Sub-prior of those Monks and my Brother who is a Monk in the same Convent Lord High Steward He says that there were three persons that recommended him to your Lordship Lord Stafford I never saw them in my life Mr. Turbervile Your Lordship that says I was a Coward and run away from my Colours will say any thing Lord Stafford I not only say it but will prove it by two Witnesses Mr. Turbervile Do it if you can Lord Stafford He says in the beginning of June 75. he went into France I desire to know of him when it was he spoke to me Mr. Turbervile In November 75. Lord Stafford He says in November Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord about the beginning of November L. Stafford I beseech your Lordship where was it he spoke to me L. H. Steward Turbervile where was it you spoke to my Lord Mr. Turbervile In Paris L. Stafford Whereabouts in Paris Mr. Turbervile It was the Corner-House of the Street which Street faces Luxenburgh House the Prince of Conde lodges on the right hand in that Street I take it to be so and you lodged at the Corner-House I think the Name of the Street was La Rue de Beaufort L. Stafford Which if the Prince of Conde did I will say no more Mr. Turbervile I cannot be upon my Oath in such cases but I think he does I take it so L. Stafford He says he was with me a fortnight what does he mean Mr. Turbervile I came to my Lord several times in the space of a fortnight L. Stafford I desire to know who brought him to me Mr. Turbervile Father Sherborn Father Nelson and my Brother Father Anthony Turbervile and sometimes I came alone L. H. Steward He says those three Fathers recommended him to your Lordship and he came himself several times Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lords it is true L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships did he come directly to my Chamber or where Mr. Turbervile Sometimes to my Lords Chamber and at other times I met him in a lower Room L. Stafford It concerns me much my Lords and though they be foolish Questions yet I hope your Lordships will pardon me if I ask them Where was this Discourse about killing the King L. H. Steward Was this Discourse in the Chamber or in the lower Room Mr. Turbervile In the lower Room L. Stafford He says I think that he hath been in my Chamber L. High Stew. Have you been in my Lords Chamber as well as in the lower Room Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lords I have L. Stafford What kind of Room is it Mr. Turbervile I cannot remember that L. Stafford No I dare sware you can't Mr. Turbervile I can't tell the particulars what Stools and Chairs were in the Room L. Stafford My Lords I have no more to say to him at present L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile How long have you been in England Mr. Turbervile I cannot answer punctually I have been in England near four years L. H. Stew. How came it to pass that you never discovered this sooner Mr. Turbervile I had no Faith to believe that I should be safe if I did it but my brains might be knocked out and that kept me off from doing that service which I might be better able to do if I did deser it L. H. Stew. How came you to discover it now Mr. Turbervile The Kings Proclamation and some Friends that have perswaded me I may do it with safety who will give your Lordships an account of it L. Stafford I desire he may attend when I make my defence Mr. Turbervile Yes I shall But I am sorry that his Lordship hath so ill a memory as to what passed between us I shall be very unwilling to do his Lordship or any body else any injury but I must tell the truth Sir Will. Jones My Lords We shall call no more Witnesses unless my Lord the Prisoner give us an occasion If he shall make any Objections to any of our Witnesses I hope we shall have liberty to call Witnesses to support them but we give over at present and expect his Lordships Answer L. Stafford May it please your Lorships I beseech your Lordships before I say any thing that I may know if they have any more Witnesses to examine Lord High Steward They say they will call no more Evidence unless your Lordships Answer do give them occasion to fortify their Witnesses you except against Lord Stafford My Lords it is now about two years that I have had the misfortune to be accused of this detestable Treason I have been several times in those two years a close prisoner that my Wife and Children were denyed to come neer me and hardly a Servant permitted to ask how I did but at the door of my Prison My Lords This was a great and an heavy affliction to me and my Lords it was so great an affliction to me that truly I did not know how to bear it 'T is true I had that comfort that I did hope I should soon come to my Tryal and before your Lordships make my innocency appear In order to which I did all I could having heard this Hall was provided for it and I did expect in a very few days to clear my self before your Lordships and all the World When I had settled my mind and did not foresee any greater affliction that could befall me I had on the sudden by some of my friends a sad Message sent me That the House of Commons had impeached me of High Treason My Lords I looked upon the House of Commons then as I do now as the great
by the Statute Mr. Serjeant Maynard Express your self my Lord for we do not understand you L. Stafford I cannot say more than I do the time which the Statute limits is six months but this is five years I desire the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. What Statute my Lord L. Stafford The Statute of the 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. If your Lordship pleases you shall have it read But your Lordship does not observe you are prosecuted and impeached of High Treason upon the Statute of the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. not upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King made for the Safety of the Kings Person which limits the Prosecution of some Offences to be within six months but the Prosecution for Treason may be at any time L. Staff Does your Lordship say it may be at any time Lord High Steward Yes my Lord. L. Stafford This truly does very much surprise me though I am wholly ignorant in matters of Law My Lords I have ever heard that no man can be prosecuted by that Statute but within so many days in one part of it Thirty Days in another six months and I desire your Lordships that the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. If your Lordship please the Statute shall be read if your Lordship desires the Clause of the Statute of the 13 th of this King which limits the Prosecution to be within six months that shall be read But I conceive your Lordship is not accused upon that Statute Lord Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may know whether I am prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King or upon what other Statute L. H. Steward What say the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons Is my Lord prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King M. Serj. Maynard Not at all my Lord he is not prosecuted upon that Statute but upon the Common Law and the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. which was only Declarative of the Common Law L. Staff This is a point of Law Sir Will. Jones What is the point of Law L. Staff Whether I can be prosecuted after so many days L. H. Steward The Law is very clear If you were prosecuted upon the 13 th of this King for any less Offence than Treason you could not be prosesecuted after six months but if you be prosecuted for Treason either upon the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. or 13. Car. 2 d. there is no time limited and God forbid there should L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships Judgment whether there be not a Statute I think 't is in the Reign of Edward the 6 th that sets the time after which no man shall be prosecuted for any thing of Treason I desire a quarter of an hours time to look into the Statute L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen L. Stafford Pray my Lord let me read the Statute of Edward the 6 th Mr. Serj. Maynard We know not of any such Statute L. Stafford I will not say there is but I will say I cannot read if there be not L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons my Lord does suppose he hath some kind of Objection in Law to make which he cannot make out of himself will it be amiss to let his Counsel make and propose the Question for him Sir Will. Jones My Lords we rather would have my Lord propose the Objection for your Lordships know till a matter of Law is proposed he cannot be admitted to have Counsel If he desires time to recollect himself about the Objection we can't oppose it But we desire that he may propose the Objection and after if it be any doubt in matter of Law your Lordships will assign him Counsel to be heard to speak to it Sir Franc. Winn. This would be a way for a Prisoner to have the Advantage of Counsel when they ought not to be allowed for 't is but to say he hath some doubt which he cannot propose himself and so let in his Counsel to make Objections for him If any Question of Law do arise and that Question is stated you will allow the Prisoner Counsel to argue it but at this rate he may make the like pretences in every part of his Defence and so obtain that Counsel shall manage his whole Defence for him L. H. Stew. I suppose my Lord does intend an Objection as to the time of the Prosecution but he does not know how to make it He supposes he is prosecuted after the six months which he thinks is the time limited for the Prosecution But I pray my Lord Stafford will your Lordship take time to recollect your self and make an Objection fit for Counsel to be heard upon and you shall have it L. Staff I beseech you I may have the Statute-Book with me for I have none my self my Lord. Sir Will. Jones With all our hearts we do not oppose it Then my Lord withdrew into the Room provided for him and within a quarter of an hour returned L. H. Stew. Say my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords I do confess I have been very much mistaken ever since I was first committed to the Tower For I did conceive that they would have proceeded as I thought I was impeached upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King I humbly desire your Lordships Judgment whether I ought or no to be prosecuted upon that Statute L. H. Stew. The Gentlemen have told you already They prosecute you upon the Statute of 25 th of Edward the 3 d. and upon the Common Law L. Staff And they lay aside that Statute L. H. Stew. What Statute L. Staff The 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen once more Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we have declared already to his Lordship and if my Lord had looked well upon the Articles of Impeachment he could not have put that Question but would have found himself impeached for Treason at the Common Law declared by the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. L. Staff So then they lay that aside of the 13 th of this King Mr. Serj. Maynard We do not mention any Statute but we mention the Crime and that Crime is against the Common Law declared by the Statute to wit The attempting the King's Death and the Subversion of the Government L. Stafford My Lords There is no doubt but the attempting the King's Death is a great and hainous Crime but my Lords I do not find that in the Impeachment there is any Overt Act at all And whether I shall answer to a Treason not proved by any Overt Act sworn by two Witnesses I submit to your Lordships But my Lords because your Lordships and the House of Commons may not think that I propose these things out of a desire of delay if your Lordships please it may be saved to me with all other points of Law I will go on to my proofs L. H. Stew. Yes
all these things shall be saved to you pray let us hear your Evidence L. Staff Since your Lordships hath granted me that be pleased to give me leave to go to my Evidence and I begin with Stephen Dugdale L. H. Stew. Set up Dugdale L. Staff Will your Lordships please I may have Pen Ink and Paper L. H. Stew. By all means my Lord. Which was given him L. Staff May it please your Lordships Stephen Dugdale said if I understand him aright and I ask him again that he knew something of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago L. H. Stew. What say you Mr. Dugdale you hear the Question Did not you say you knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago Mr. Dugdale I did say it and did explain my meaning in it I did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the King died of Arms and Money that neither should be wanting L. Staff I beseech your Lordship to ask what proportion of Arms was to be provided L. H. Stew. What proportion of Arms was to be provided Mr. Dugdale I never heard it nominated how many absolutely I have heard of some Numbers I heard of late of 30000. that were to be raised beyond Sea what the whole number in England was I have forgot but I think I have heard Mr. Gavan and some of the Priests say That if there was occasion they should have at least 200000 to assist them that was of Men and I suppose they had Arms as well as Men. L. Stafford My Lords If this were true which he says Mr. Gavan said that they were 200000 I desire to know what Men he ment what Religion they must be of Lord High Stew. What Religion were they of that were to come in and help Mr. Dugdale He did not name them at that time but I understood them and so I apprehend the Company would that they were Roman Catholicks L. Stafford 'T is a strange thing that there should be 200000 Catholicks raised when there are not 20â—00 in England that can bear Arms. L. H. Stew. Good my Lord They might come from beyond sea and so they might be so many Roman Catholicks though there were not so many in England Mr. Serj. Maynard And he says not they were Roman Catholicks but he heard so Mr. Treby There might be so many Roman Catholicks and such as should be with them L. Staff Did he hear 15 or 16 Years that I was one to be among them L. H. Stew. Answer that Question Did you hear then that my Lord Stafford was to be one among them Mr. Dugdale I cannot remember it that I did my Lord. L. Stafford Then my Lords I make this use of it He tells you of a Plot 16 Years ago that 200000 Men in Arms were ready against the King's death Mr. Dugdale I did not say so my Lords I desire I may be understood aright L. Stafford You say you heard so Mr. Dugdale I speak as to the number of Men what I heard of late at the Consults and Meetings within these two Years L. Stafford But I speak of 16 Years ago what Number of Men was there to be raised Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was a general word that was amongst us That we must be provided against that time against the Death of the King but no Number at all L. Stafford This my Lords under favour I conceive does not concern me He tells you there was such a thing it might be so or it might not be so I am not concerned in it then 't is out of Doors as to what concerns me I conceive otherwise if the Gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so Then my Lords the next thing is How long ago it is since I first spake to him about this Plot and I beseech your Lordships he may mention time and place L. H. Stew. You hear the Question Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugdale The first time to my best remembrance L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords let us have no remembrance but let him swear positively L. H. Stew. There is no mortal Man can swear otherwise than according to his Remembrance L. Stafford When a mans Life and Honour and all he hath is at stake and indeed in Consequence every man in England is concerned if they swear not positively but still say as I remember who can make a Defence L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Go on and say as near as you can and be as particular as you can upon your Oath Mr. Dugdale That which I can positively affirm is It was about August or September 78. L. Stafford He said yesterday it was in the latter end of August or the beginning of September which are two Months I beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of August how long before the end of August L. H. Stew. How long was it before the last day in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I will not be positive but it was either in one Month or the other I did not keep a Diary or else I would give your Lordships satisfaction L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships he may positively say whether in August or nor in August or whether in September or not in September Mr. Dugdale I dare not venture to swear that I dare not do it L. Staff Then saving my Exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards I would ask him what day was it in September that I spoke to him Mr. Dugd. I remember one was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. Staff My Lords he says the 20. or 21. does he say that was the first time he spoke with me Sir Jolm Trevor No no. L. Staff I beseech you my Lords they may not answer the Questions but the Witnesses they cry No no. L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall certainly have an answer to all the Questions you will ask L. Staff But when I ask they answer for them I would know whether that is the Course or no. L. H. Stew. Do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you you shall have a fair hearing L. Stafford But my Lords I cannot but be disquieted when I hear these learned Gentlemen make Answers to my Questions for the Witnesses L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Was the 20. or the 21. of September you speak of the first time you spoke to my Lord Stafford Mr. Dugdale No my Lords it was not L. Stafford Pray my Lords what day was it then I spoke first to him L. H. Stew. What was the day you first spoke to my Lord Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot remember so well as to tell you L. H. Stew. Do you remember when my Lord came to Tixal Mr. Dugdale I remember one Sunday in particular but I cannot tell what day of the month it was L. H. Stew. Do you remember my Lord Stafford at Tixal in company of my Lord Aston and Father Evers Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember that any
out a Priest one Charles Prichard and I think also if I mistake not one Morgan my Lord Powis's Priest I spoke with him before he went I sent Letters down with him I spoke with him afterwards he hath been in my family some time he hath behaved himself very well there and in several other sober families nearly related to me I have not heard a better character of any man from all sorts of people than of him in my life Sir VV. Jones Did he tell you any thing of the Plot Sir Mr. Arnold My Lords I did several times find by him that he knew much having conversed both in France and here with Jesuits and Priests I pressed him oftentimes to discover his knowledge and to come in to the Council but he gave me such Answers why he did not that I could not answer Sir VVilliam Jones What were they Sir Pray tell us Mr. Arnold That the Witnesses that were come in were in danger of their Lives that they were discouraged that they were discountenanced and as long as the Duke of York had that power in the Conncil that he had and my Lady Powis's Brother had that power over those Countreys where he lived which his Lordship is often pleased to call his Province he durst not do it for his Life Then Mr Hobby was sworn Sir Will. Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Hobby My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill near four years L. H. Steward What account can you give of him Mr. Hobby My Lords my first acquaintance with him was at my Brothers House in Glamorganshire When I came there my Brother shew'd him me and told me he was a very worthy man but his Friends had cast him off because he would not take Orders in the Romish Church He lived at my Brothers above a year and when he came thence my Brother writ a Letter of Recommendation to my Father to receive him there and do him all the kindness he could He came to my Father's and stay'd there near half a year or thereabouts I cannot tell to a Month or so Since I have known him often in this Town and been in his company and I never knew nor heard but that he behaved himself like a worthy honest Gentleman but as to any thing of the Plot I know nothing Sir VV. Jones We ask you not to that Where is Mr. Matthews Then Mr. Matthews a Divine was sworn Sir VV. Jones Mr. Matthews pray tell my Lords Whether you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Matthews Yes My Lords I have known Mr. Edward Turbervill for about four years last past L. H. Steward Go on what do you know of him Mr. Matthews My Lords he lived some time in my Neighbourhood I never knew him guilty of any ill action at all but a person of a very fair Reputation He acknowledged himself a Roman Catholick and was pleased to give me the liberty to talk to him I found him inclinable to hearken to me and to those Reasons I offered to him and I found he had a mind to quit that Religion being convinced by the Arguments I gave him and as several times he hath since told me those were some of the great motives of his coming over from the Romish to the Protestant Communion L. H. Stew. What were the Motives Mr. Matthews One was the hazard I told him of in his living in the Roman Communion as to Salvation another was the excellency of the Doctrines of our Church its Principles and Practices L. H. Steward Did he acknowledge to you he knew any thing of the Plot Mr. Matthews No not a syllable of it Sir Will. Jones We don't call him to that purpose Then another Witness was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness William Seys Sir W. Jones Pray will you acquaint my Lords what you know of Mr. Turbervill Mr. Seys I have been acquainted with him this two or three years and I never knew him guilty of any ill action my life I never heard of any body that could asperse him but he hath behaved himself like a very honest civil Gentleman Sir Will. Jones Where were you acquainted with him Mr. Seys Here in London Then Captain Scudamore stood up again Sir Will. Jones He was sworn before we desire he may speak to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation Capt. Scudamore My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill for these three quarters of a year I have been acquainted with him in London he hath been much at my House and all that while I saw nothing in him but that he is a very honest Gentleman Sir William Jones My Lords I think we have but one matter more which we should have mentioned before but that our Witness was not come but I hope we shall have the favour of some Honourable Lords that do know the thing and I think there are many more that can prove it My Lord Stafford who is very ancient it may be may not remember matters exactly I blame him not Oblivion is the great infirmity of old age He was pleased to say Yesterday he had so good health that he had not been lame I think he said for these Forty years but at last his Page said for the last Seven years and I shall confirm our proof to that time My Lords I think there are some Honourable Lords here that have seen this Noble Lord that says he was not Lame in so many years very near about the time he was confined and imprisoned go Lame and come Lame to the House and ease himself by holding up his Legg sometimes My Lords I do not say the Circumstance is very material but only to shew my Lord may forget himself which I shall impute to his old Age. L. Stafford I will acknowlede it if your Lordships please I did say I had not been lame with the Gout so long no more I have not I was troubled with the Sciatica many years but 't is above eight or nine years since that and I took so much Opium that that and my going to the Bath cured me I have often come lame to the House out of weariness and old Age but if ever I put my Foot upon a Stool for the Gout or was ever so lame as to put my Foot upon a Cushion to ease it I will admit what he speaks to I 'll acknowledge thus much to save time Sir Will. Jones Seeing my Lord is pleased to go off from it I 'll call no Witnesses to it L. Stafford I go off from nothing I was lame three or four years when the King came in I went to the Bath and afterwards into Germany and what with Opium and the Bath I was cured and I have not been lame these eight or nine years I have not had the Gout in my Foot for these many years and I never was so lame to put my Foot on a stool to my remembrance Sir VVill. Jones
which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed And the truth of it is as his Brothers prove to your Lordships he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 71 and so he forswears himself in every thing and is in no wise to be believed He swears to your Lordships I writ a Letter to him to acquaint him that I would go by Calice and not by Diep but I have proved I went by Diep and I assure your Lordships I have not been at Calice I think these twelve or fourteen years I conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word He swears that my Lord Powis my Lady Powis and his friends perswaded him to go to Doway to to be a Frier but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them but the Evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my Lord Powis's and was well received that he lay in the House and was not in the least injured by them And for his other Relations his Brother proves he was not ill used by them They gave him Seven Pound to be gone and trouble them no more He says I said he was a Coward and I 'le tell you why I said so because a Captain that is now out of England told his Sister so who told me But that is not very material My Lords there is one Witness more John Porter that swears to your Lordships this one thing That this Turbervill swore to him at such an Alehouse he knew nothing of the Plot. And then my Lords there is Mr. Yalden and he is a Gentleman of Reputation he said in his company there was no Trade good but that of a Discoverer God damn the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it Truly my Lords whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a Discoverer telling what he knew not so many Months ago and therefore I submit it to your Lordships what he is My Lords these people that swear against me there is not one of them a person of any Quality or Condition and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth by things that are known and need no proof I shall observe when I come to it to argue that point in Law Whether a man that swears for gain is a credible Witness or no My Lords I have as well as I can summed up that little Evidence that was given against me I cannot better do it in so short a time for indeed I had but a very short time last night and I have not slept I had the Cramp so much in extremity that my next Neighbour heard me roaring out My Lords I submit my self to your Lordships and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your Lordships sufficiently answered And I beseech your Lordships well to consider that one thing against Dr. Oats his dissembling with God Almighty and his impudent owning of it This I do insist upon and I protest before God Almighty if I were a Judge I would not hang a Dog upon such Evidence My Lords I have many points in Law to offer to your Lordships and when you please I should do it I 'le name them to you L. H. Steward Name them my Lord if you have any Doubts in Law propound them Lord Lovelace My Lords I would not interrupt my Lord but I think indeed it is no interruption since his Lordship broke off and was going on to another point But I think I see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a Court of Justice Whilest we are Trying a Person here for a Popish Plot I do see a prosessed Papist standing in the Body of your House and that is Sir Barnard Gascoyne Who thereupon went out of the Court. L. Stafford My Lords I do conceive I have cleared my self to your ' Lordships of what I am accused of My Lords The Course of my whole Life hath been otherwise I defie any Creature in the World to say That I ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the King or did any such Act. I waited on the King that now is in the Unhappy War that is passed when I was in a low condition enough as to Fortune and my Wife and Family were thereby reduced to great Streights for my Wife and Children lived some five or six years upon some Plate and Jewels that we had whereas if I would have come and been at London and joined with that party I could have saved my Estate and lived quietly as others did But my Conscience told me I ought to wait upon the King and offer him my personal Service when I could do him no other I have shewn how the Witnesses have forsworn themselves I shall now if your Lordships please desire your Opinion in some points of Law And though perhaps I may name to your Lordships many things that are impertinent or not to the purpose I beg your Lordships pardon 't is out of the weakness of my Understanding and I hope you will not think ill neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons if I should through Ignorance move things impertinent The first Point of Law is this First I conceive there is no Example or President for it That Proceedings Criminal ever did continue from Parliament to Parliament and this is continued to three L. H. Steward Speak out my Lord and go on L. Stafford Secondly my Lords I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least but my Lords I know they Impeach when they find Grounds for it without dispute but I question whether any man by the known Laws of this Kingdom in Capital Cases can be proceeded on but by Indictment first found by the Grand Jury and not by Impeachment by any Person or other body of Men. L. H. Steward Say on my Lord. L. Stafford Thirdly my Lords I conceive there are many defects in the Indictment or the Impeachment Indictment there is none There is no Overt Act alledged in the Indictment or Impeachment I know not well what it is called And my Lords by the Act of Parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be Treason but according to the Statute of 25 Edw. 3. which includes an Overt Act. Fourthly my Lords I desire that I may prove that by Law they are not competent Witnesses for they swear for money But my Lords I forgot one thing to say to Your Lordships as to the Evidence that these Gentlemen did endeavour to prove I do not speak whether they did or not a general Plot of the Papists whether they did not I am not concerned in it for I say they have not proved me a Papist which I submit to Your Lordships and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge yet they having not given any
Jesuits You will find them preparing for it by making Sermons to justifie that Doctrine which I confess this Noble Lord denies of the lawfulness of killing Kings You will find the Priests and Jesuits in their Discourses as well as Sermons urging and incouraging their Disciples and Votaries to go on with their Design of killing our King and giving that common Reason for it That He was an Heretick and it were meritorious to take him out of the way My Lords I take notice of these particulars in the general Plot because it may give great light to and add much to the Confirmation of the particular Evidence And my Lords I think I may take leave to say That the Plot in general hath been now sufficiently proved And if we consider what hath been proved at former Tryals upon which many of the Offenders and Traytors have been executed what hath been published in Print and above all Coleman's Letters written all with his own hand and for that reason impossible to be falsified we may justly conclude that there is not a man in England of any understanding but must be fully convinced of the truth of the Plot in general I shall spare to mention the Resolutions and Declarations of Two Parliaments and of both Houses in those Two Parliaments without as I remember one dissenting Voice expressing their full satisfaction of the Reality of the Plot so that I think now none remain that do pretend not to believe it but two sorts of persons the one those that were Conspirators in it and the other those that wish'd it had succeeded and desire it may so still But my Lords I will be the shorter on this part For perhaps it will be objected You have offered a fair Proof of a general Plot here are Records Votes of both Houses Papers and Evidences printed and Witnesses Viva voce to prove it but what is all this to my Lord Stafford My Lords it goes a great way to him I do not say to be a convincing Evidence but to make the particular Evidence against him highly credible Your Lordships cannot imagine That there are such a store of Lords and great Men amongst that Party though there be too many that they should have great Choice for great Offices Your Lordships hear how the other great Offices were disposed of and truly I think the Merit of this Lord amongst that party might very well intitle him to an Office as great as this of Treasurer of War or Pay-Master to the Army But what is the Evidence of the general Plot may some still say to my Lord Stafford what do you mention the raising an Army what do you mention the collecting of Money what do you mention the providing of Arms for Yes my Lords they are very useful for they give a a fair Introduction to prove against this Lord that he was to have this Office If it be proved by other Witnesses than those who swear directly against this Lord That there were Arms provided that there was an Army to be raised and the rest It proves at least that there was Occasion for such an Officer as the particular Witness proves my Lord was to be My Lords For the other matter that relates to the Consultations of the Priests and Jesuits and their Sermons and Discourses I desire your Lordships to observe that also which if you do your Lordships will easily perceive what a great influence even that matter hath upon the particular Evidence and how credible it renders the Testimony of the particular Witnesses Your Lordships will find when my Lord was at Tixal as Dugdale gives you an Accompt there was Evers the Jesuit and other Priests still at my Lords Elbow and egging him on to this business Your Lordships will find where Oats speaks of him it is at Fenwick's Chamber who was a Jesuit giving him ghostly Counsel Your Lordships will find that at Paris where Mr. Turbervill speaks of him there were Father Sherborne Father Nelson and Father Anthony Turbervill Still the Priests are about my Lord and when my Lord is among them or but newly come from them then he utters the Treason of killing the King And doubtless this trayterous purpose of his did arise from their Counsels So that though our Witnesses speak of my Lords Discourses at several times about killing the King yet they make them flow from one and the same Fountain the instigation of the Priests and Jesuits But now my Lords to come to the particular Evidence I think I may say if ever Evidence was convincing this is so We have brought three Witnesses which speak each of them that which is sufficient to prove my Lord Guilty and they speak of Overt Acts too as I shall observe anon His Lordship was pleased at the beginning of our Evidence to desire that the Witnesses might look him in the Face and for that he cited two Statutes I supposed he intended the Statutes of 1. 5. of Edw. 6. which Statutes or at least one of them do say That there shall be in Case of High Treason two Witnesses to accuse and those two Witnesses brought face to face at the time of the Tryal And my Lord hath had the benefit of those Laws he hath had two nay three Witnesses to prove him Guilty brought face to face before your Lordships and if these three or any two of them deserve to be credited my Lord in this Case is Guilty of High Treason My Lords I must beg the favour of looking upon my Paper of Notes for the truth is the Witnesses are so many and the proceeding hath held so long that it is impossible for my weak memory to retain all that was said My Lords the first Witness we began withall was Dugdale And I know your Lordships did take notice what he swore but it will be my Duty to remind your Lordships That he tells you That he had heard of a general Design of making preparations to be ready against the Kings Death and this for several years past But as to the matter of hastening the Death of the King that was but a late Counsel He tells you I think that about the latter end of August or the beginning of September 1678. Evers and other Jesuits were at Tixal That there was a Consult then about the Kings Death and that by the means of Evers who was a very great Man among them but since fled and is mentioned in the Impeachment he was admitted to that Consult and heard particularly what every man said and he does take upon him to say That at that time the matter of taking away the Kings Life was propounded and that my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar did consent to it My Lords He tells you further That upon a Sunday Morning my Lord came from Stafford to Tixal to Masse my Lord was pleased to observe that we do not prove him a Papist but we prove my Lord came to Masse and that I think is one
in a time when that time is so far elapsed The next matter is That this man was never with my Lord how was that proved for 't is a Negative Why my Lord is pleased to call his own Servants Furnese and the Boy Leigh and what say they they never saw any such man My Lords I desire your Lordships to observe That Mr. Turbervill was introduced by greater Confidents than either of these Servants Mr. Turbervill came in the company of the Priests and you hear the Boy deny that he knew Anthony Turbervill but not that he knew Father Turbervill nor doth my Lord himself deny it nor doth either Master or Man deny my Lords correspondency with the other two Fathers And it might be very easie for Mr. Turbervill to come in the company of the Priests and the Boy not take particular notice of him And 't is as little an Objection what my Lord says that Turbervill himself said he did not know the Boy how many are there that come to the Houses of another and unless they Lodge there or dine there often do not remember the Servants of the House And 't is no greater an Objection to say the Servants did not know him The Priests they knew him they were his Guides they were the likeliest to gain him Admittance not only into my Lord's House but into my Lord's Heart My Lords Your Lordships will be pleased likewise to observe They have also gone about in very little matters to disprove Mr. Turbervill as that whereas he says he was not well used by my Lord Powis and his Lady when he returned from Doway that he was very well used and as one Witness I think Minhead says he was permitted to lie in a Room near my Lord's Chamber My Lords Mr. Turbervill does not pretend to say that my Lord Powis shut him out of doors but what Reproaches or unkind Words might pass between them in private Minhead might not hear So that to say that he lay in my Lord's House is no Answer to this Matter And for the other Witness his Brother that speaks of his Kindreds being kind to him that under favour does not at all disprove him for what was the kindness His Brother and Sister were so kind as to give him Seven Pounds never to see him more a great matter when a younger Brother lies upon a Family that the trouble of his stay there is redeemed at the price of Seven Pound This was a very great kindness a kindness indeed that one would scarce deny to a Stranger if in Poverty I mention the least matters I can remember because I would have nothing stick with your Lordships Then Secretary Lydcott the Fellow of Kings Colledge was called again but indeed my Lords he was so out in his Arithmetick so mistaken in the Year and used the New Stile the Romish so much more than ours that it makes me suspect he is not so great a Protestant as he pretends to be He promised us his Book which he was not then prepared to produce but because we do not hear of him nor of his Book since we say no more of him My Lords John Porter my Lord Powis's Butler comes next and what does he tell your Lordships Why that Mr. Turbervill came not to Powis's House it seems he did not appear there but that he came to a Victualling House hard by and he telling Turbervill he must know something of the Plot he denied that he knew any thing To the same purpose or rather to less and more improbably does Yalden the Gentleman of Grays Inn as he calls himself testifie who says that walking in Grays Inn Walks he had discourse with Turbervill and that he then swore there was no Trade good now but that of a Discoverer and damned himself because he could make no Discovery Truly my Lords this looks in it self to be something prepared for the purpose It is not probable that a Man that should use those horrid Oaths and should have such a mind to be a Discoverer should disable himself ever to be so by swearing he knew nothing But I will not only answer that matter with saying 't is improbable but I shall desire Your Lordships to remember that Mr. Powel a Gentleman of the same House and of good Reputation does swear that Turbervill did acquaint him that he could discover a considerable matter and this was above a year since And Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons does confirm it that he did several times acquaint him that he could make an important Discovery and gave him several reasons why he thought not fit to do at that time because of the Dangers which might arise from some Great Men and therefore till he had a more convenient Opportunity he would not discover But as soon as the Parliament sate very early he did begin to discover So that I shall oppose the Testimony of Mr. Powel and Mr. Arnold to the Testimony of my Lord Powis's Butler and Mr. Yalden the latter of whom speaks so improbably and of a Discourse half a year ago whereas Mr. Powel speaks of what Mr. Turbervill said above a year since and Mr. Arnold of a longer time My Lords It hath been sometimes objected that Mr. Turbervill was a Stranger to my Lord and it was too great a Trust to commit to a Stranger too great a Secret for a Stranger to be acquainted with My Lord's design of the King's Death was too great a matter to lodge with one with whom my Lord had no more Acquaintance than he had with Turbervill Your Lordships will be pleased to observe who they were that did introduce him and who probably gave the best Character of him they were the three Priests and I do not wonder when these Priests had brought my Lord up to such a purpose that they should prevail with his Lordship to give Credit to and deal with a Man that was not very unlike in his Circumstances to attempt such a business For your Lordships will observe he was a man that was very stout for against my Lord's reflection upon him as to Cowardise in deserting the Army Mr. Turbervill hath produced the Certificate of his dismission which gives him a very good Character Besides he was a man indigent and therefore I think there could not be a fitter man chosen for the purpose if he had been so void of all Grace as to undertake it And that Priests having gotten a man so qualified as they thought him were not likely to let slip such an opportunity But My Lords to come to that which is the sum of the business and which my Lord lays more weight on than all the rest and that is the Affidavit which Mr. Turbervill swore before the Justices of the Peace which was in effect what he informed the House of Commons and in that Affidavit besides his alteration of Times which I have spoken to already it is objected that he does say that which
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
the King by his great Seal or little Seal command that Justice should be delaid or denied yet however the Judges shall not obey it but proceed So I hope there is no pretence of delay on my part and the benefit of that Statute shall not be denied me And that Statute of the Great Charter which cost so many of your Ancestors their Lives to maintain I hope you will never go from Now your Lordships Noble Ancestors amongst other things took great care that Justice should be denied or delayed to none and this I desire you to take into Consideration I am in your Lordships Judgment either to be Acquitted or Condemned I hope your Lordships will and I know you will lay your Hands upon your Hearts consult your Consciences and your Honours and then you will do what is Just and Equitable I doubt not My Lords Mr. Oats said I came by the name of Mr. Howard of Essingham but that I did to my Letters sign Stafford surely my Lords if I was ashamed to own my Person I should have been as much ashamed to have owned my Name He says he saw me take a Commission and whether that be an Overt Act your Lordships are to determine Upon the whole matter I conceive there is nothing proved against me but words nor pretended to but only by Oats And whether you will credit a man that so dissembles with God as I have told you I appeal to your Lordships and beg you to consider of it That these Witnesses have sworn for Money if you send to the Exchequer Office and see what Money they have received you will find by the great Sums that 't is so and then I hope you will not allow them to be heard nor credit any that swear for gain I had a Suit in Westminster-Hall that had like to have gone expresly against me only because one of my Witnesses was to gain 8 l. if the Suit went for me But pray consider how much these men have had And for the point that there are not two Witnesses I beseech your Lordships give me leave to put you in mind That not many Years ago you passed an Act against Frauds and Perjuries wherein you were so careful to preserve mens Estates that you required three Witnesses to prove a Will of Goods or Lands above 100 l. and will you allow but one Witness to take away a mans Life for Words Though your Lordships will never commit Treason yet no man can preserve himself from the Misfortune that happens to me of being falsly accused 'T is true my Lords the Managers have given an Answer to the Business of the Money by saying The King may give as liberally as he pleases but to give so great Sums whereby Men Poor before are now become Rich I think will be an Objection against their Credit My Lords I have said what I do think convenient though I think much more might be said by an abler man to your Lordships for the clearing of himself I hope I have done it nay I am confident I have and this I have done for the Memory of that Great and Blessed King who first made me a Peer that it may not be said He did me the Honour Forty Years ago to call me up to this Dignity and I should fly in the Face of his Son in so horrible a manner as these men would make me I do owe it to the Honour of my Father and Mother who I think I may safely say were both Honourable and Worthy Persons My Father was a learned man and a wise man as I may appeal to some of your Lordships who knew him well I say I owe it to their Memory and to the Honour of the Family from whence I sprang which all the world knows what it is And I should be an infamous man to dishonour them so much as to bear their Name and commit Treason My Lords I owe it to my Wife who hath been a very kind Wife to me as ever Man had She is Heiress at Law to the great Estate of that great and unfortunate Man Stafford Duke of Buckingham who was cut offin the Reign of King Henry the Eighth and all his Estate if it were not for that Attainder would have come to her I may be impertinent in telling your Lordships what it was but I do not over-say it when I reckon it would have been at this day Two hundred thousand pounds a Year for it was Seventeen thousand pounds a Year in those days Penny Rent besides other Emoluments This is an extravagant thing to say but 't is true something thereof does remain to her which I now enjoy I owe it to all my Children especially to my Eldest Son who is a young Man and I may say of far better Parts and Hopes than his Father and whom I hope will serve his Country I owe it to all my Friends and Relations for I would not have it said after-my Death my Wife was the Widow of a Traytor I owe it to all these but above all I owe it to God Almighty then when I come to be judged by Him I may give a good account of what he hath intrusted me with that I may not appear as an infamous Man who knows he hath a Body but not his own and yet should throw it and his Soul away together And if I should have committed this Execrable Treason I should have been Guilty of my own Murder First in the committing a Crime worthy of Death and then in not Confessing to save my Life I hold Murder an extraordinary Crime the worst next to Treason And I know if I should not prevent my Death by confessing all I knew I should have been guilty of Self-Murder the worst of Murders I know your Lordships will lay to Heart what an execrable thing Murder is and the Blood of Innocents and I hope there is none of the House of Commons but after this Evidence will clear me I am sure none of them would have me punished for that I am not Guilty of I do not blame these Gentlemen of the House of Commons for Prosecuting nor the first for Impeaching for they had without all doubt Reasons great enough for it upon what Evidence they had before them before they knew what the Witnesses were I know your Lordships will not in the least point vary from Justice or the Law of the Land and I desire you to lay the whole matter to your Hearts I have not the least suspicion of the Partiality of any Man in the House nay I profess if I had an Enemy and he were not here I would beg of you that he might come I have cleared my self before your Lordshships and I hope I shall not be run down by the wicked Rabble which where it will end God knows It began in the late times against my Lord of Strafford and so continued till it ended in that most Execrable Fact one of them that ever was done
his right name or addition is likewise a just Cause to arrest the Judgment There is likewise another Question how far it may be valued I know not I submit it as I do all to your Lordships Though I am tried upon the Act of 25 Edw. 3 d. yet there is nothing more in that Act than what is included in the Act of the 13 th of this King And I humbly conceive my Lords by that Act and the last Proviso in it a Peer that is accused and found Guilty of the Crimes therein mentioned is to lose his Seat in Parliament those are the words and since 't is so put down in the Act it is so to be understood and that is all the punishment And I humbly demand your Lordships Judgment upon these points whether it be so or no And humbly demand your Lordships Judgments upon these Points whether it be so or no Lord High Steward Has your Lordship any more to say Lord Stafford No my Lords I submit to your Lordships and desire your Judgment in these Points Then the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Committee of Commons returned to their own House and the Speaker having reassumed the Chair the whole Body of the House went with their Speaker to the Bar of the House of Lords to demand Judgment of High Treason against William Viscount Stafford upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England in Parliament in the name of the Commons in Parliament and of all the Commons of England The Commons with their Speaker went back to their House Then the Lords took into consideration what Judgment was to be given upon William Viscount Stafford and it was moved that he might be beheaded After some debate the Judges were asked whether if any other Judgment than the usual Judgment for High Treason were given upon him it would attaint his Blood The Judges were of opinion that the Judgment for High Treason appointed by Law is to be drawn hanged and quartered and in the Courts and Proceedings below they can take no notice of any Judgment for High Treason but that Then Sir Creswell Levinz the Kings Attorney-General desired to be heard on his Majesties behalf which the House gave leave for him to be who said he knew no other Judgment by Law for High Treason but Drawing Hanging and Quartering if any other Judgment were given it would be prejudicial to His Majesty and be a Question in the inferiour Courts as to his Attainder of High Treason Whereupon their Lordships ordered That the Lord High Steward do pronounce the ordinary Judgment of Death upon the Lord Viscount Stafford as the Law hath appointed in Cases of High Treason And a Message was sent to the House of Commons from their Lordships by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House That their Lordships are going presently into Westminster-Hall to give Judgment against William Viscount Stafford Mr. Speaker left the Chair The Committee of Commons appointed for the Management of the Evidence against the Prisoner with the rest of the Commons went into Westminster-Hall to the Court there erected to be present when the Lords gave Judgment of High Treason against him upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England After a short time their Lordships were adjourned into Westminster-Hall coming in their former Order into the Court there erected where being seated and the Lord High Steward being on the Wool-sack attended by Garter principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Eight of the Serjeants at Arms kneeling with their Maces the Ninth Macer making proclamation for Silence which being done the Lord High Steward gave Judgment upon the Prisoner as followeth Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford THat which your Lordship hath said in Arrest of Judgment hath been found by my Lords upon due Consideration had of it to be of no moment at all It is no Essential part of any Trial That the Prisoner should hold up his Hand at the Bar there is no Record ever made of it when it is done the only use of it is to shew the Court who the Prisoner is when that is apparent the Court does often proceed against him though he refuse to hold up his Hand at the Bar therefore the omission of that Ceremony in this Case is no legal Exception as all the Judges have declared And as to the Proviso's in the Statute of the 13th year of this King their Lordships do find that they are in no sort applicable to this Case forasmuch as the Proceedings against your Lordship are not grounded upon that Statute but upon the Statute of the 25. E. 3. And yet if the Proceedings had been upon the latter Statute the Proviso's therein could have done your Lordship no service at all My part therefore which remains is a very sad one for I never yet gave Sentence of Death upon any man and am extremely sorry that I must begin with your Lordship Who would have thought that a person of your Quality of so Noble an Extraction of so considerable Estate and Fortune so eminent a Sufferer in the late ill Times so interested in the Preservation of the Government so much obliged to the Moderation of it and so personally obliged to the King and his Royal Father for their particular Favours to you should ever have entred into so Infernal a Conspiracy as to contrive the Murder of the King the Ruin of the State the Subversion of Religion and as much as in you lâ—y the Destruction of all the Souls and Bodies in three Christian Nations And yet the Impeachment of the House of Commons amounts to no less a Charge and of this Charge their Lordships have found you Guilty That there hath been a General and Desperate Conspiracy of the Papists and that the Death of the King hath been all along one chief part of the Conspirators Design is now apparent beyond all possibility of doubting What was the meaning of all those Treatises which were publisht about two years since against the Oath of Allegiance in a time when no man dreamt of such a Controversie What was the meaning of Father Conyers's Sermon upon the same Subject but only because there was a Demonstration of Zeal as they call it intended against the Person of the King which the scruples arising from that Oath did somewhat hinder To what purpose were all the Correspondencies with Foreign Nations The Collections of Money among the Fathers abroad and at home What was the meaning of their Governing themselves here by such Advices as came frequently from Paris and Saint Omers And how shall we expound that Letter which came from Ireland to assure the Fathers here that all things were in a readiness there too as soon as the Blow should be given Does any man now begin to doubt how London came to be Burnt Or by what ways and means poor Justice Godfrey fell And is it not