Table-Talk BEING THE DISCOURSES OF John Selden Esq OR HIS SENSE of various MATTERS of Weight and high Consequence Relating especially to Religion and State Distingue Tempora The Second Edition LONDON Printed for Jacob Tonson at the Judge's Head near the Inner-Temple Gate in Fleetstreet and Awnsham and John Churchill at the Black Swan in Pater-Noster-Row 1696. To the Honourable Mr. Justice Hales One of the JUDGES OF THE Common-Pleas And to the much Honoured Edward Heywood John Vaughan AND Rowland Jewks Esquiers Most worthy Gentlemen WEre you not Executors to that Person who while he liv'd was the Glory of the Nation yet I am Confident any thing of his would find Acceptance with you and truly the Sense and Notion here is wholly his and most of the Words I had the opportunity to hear his Discourse twenty Years together and lest all those Excellent things that usually fell from him might be lost some of them from time to time I faithfully committed to Writing which here digested into this Method I humbly present to your Hands you will quickly perceive them to be his by the familiar Illustrations wherewith they are set off and in which way you know he was so happy that with a marvelous delight to those that heard him he would presently convey the highest Points of Religion and the most important Affairs of State to an ordinary apprehension In reading be pleas'd to distinguish Times and in your Fancy carry along with you the When and the Why many of these things were spoken this will give them the more Life and the smarter Relish 'T is possible the Entertainment you find in them may render you the more inclinable to pardon the Presumption of Your most Obliged and most Humble Servant RI. MILWARD THE TABLE ABbies Priories page 1 Articles 3 Baptism 4 Bastard 5 Bible Scripture 6 Bishops before the Parliament 11 Bishops in the Parliament 13 Bishops out of the Parliament 19 Books Authors 25 Canon-Law Ceremony 27 Chancellour 28 Changing Sides 29 Chrismas 30 Christians 31 Church 32 Church of Rome 34 Churches City 35 Clergy 36 High Commission House of Commons 38 Confession 39 Competency 40 Great Conjunction Conscience 41 Consecrated Places 43 Contracts 44 Council 45 Convocation Creed 46 Damnation 47 Devils 48 Self-Denial 51 Duel 52 Epitaph 53 Equity 54 Evil Speaking 55 Excommunication 56 Faith and Works 59 Fasting-Days 60 Fathers and Sons Fines 61 Free-will Fryers 62 Friends Genealogy of Christ 63 Gentlemen 64 Gold Hall 65 Hell 66 Holy-Days 67 Humility 68 Idolatry Jews 69 Invincible Ignorance Images 70 Imperial Constitutions Imprisonment 72 Incendiaries Independency 73 Things Indifferent Publick Interest 75 Humane Invention Judgments 76 Judge 77 Juggling Jurisdiction 78 Jus Divinum King 79 King of England 81 The King 84 Knights Service 86 Land Language 87 Law 88 Law of Nature 90 Learning 91 Lecturers Libels 93 Liturgy Lords in the Parliament 94 Lords before the Parliament 95 Marriage 97 Marriage of Cosin Germans 98 Measure of things 99 Difference of Men Minister Divine 100 Money 107 Moral Honesty 108 Mortage Number 109 Oaths 110 Oracles 113 Opinion 114 Parity Parliament 116 Parson 119 Patience Peace 120 Penance People 121 Pleasure 122 Philosophy 124 Poetry 125 Pope 127 Popery 130 Power State 131 Prayer 134 Preaching 137 Predestination 144 Preferment 145 Praemunire Prerogative 148 Presbytery 149 Priest of Rome 151 Prophecies 152 Proverbs Question 153 Reason 154 Retaliation Reverence 155 Non Residency 156 Religion 157 Sabboth 163 Sacrament Salvation 164 State 165 Superstition Subsidies 166 Simony Ship-Money 167 Synod Assembly 158 Thanksgiving Tythes 171 Trade 174 Tradition Transubstantiation 175 Traitor Trinity 176 Truth 177 Trial 178 University 179 Vows 180 Usury Pious Uses 181 War 182 Witches Wife 186 Wisdom 187 Wit 188 Women 189 Year 190 Zelots 192 THE DISCOURSES OF John Selden Esq Abbies Priories c. 1. THE unwillingness of the Monks to part with their Land will fall out to be just nothing because they were yielded up to the King by a Supream Hand viz. a Parliament If a King conquer another Country the People are loath to lose their Lands yet no Divine will deny but the King may give them to whom he please If a Parliament make a Law concerning Leather or any other Commodity you and I for Example are Parliament-Men perhaps in respect to our own private Interest we are against it yet the major Part conclude it we are then in volv'd and the Law is good 2. When the Founder of Abbies laid a Curse upon those that should take away those Lands I would fain know what Power they had to curse me 'T is not the Curses that come from the Poor or from any Body that hurt me because they come from them but because I do something ill against them that deserves God should curse me for it On the other side 't is not a Man's blessing me that makes me blessed he only declares me to be so and if I do well I shall be blessed whether any bless me or not 3. At the time of Dissolution they were tender in taking from the Abbots and Priors their Lands and their Houses till they surrendred them as most of them did indeed the Prior of St. John's Sir Richard Weston being a stout Man got into France and stood out a whole Year at last submitted and the King took in that Priory also to which the Temple belonged and many other Houses in England they did not then cry no Abbots no Priors as we do now no Bishops no Bishops 4. Henry the Fifth put away the Friars Aliens and seized to himself 100000 l. a Year and therefore they were not the Protestants only that took away Church Lands 5. In Queen Elizabeths time when all the Abbies were pulled down all good Works defaced then the Preachers must cry up Justification by Faith not by good Works Articles 1. THE nine and thirty Articles are much another thing in Latin in which Tongue they were made than they are translated into English they were made at three several Convocations and confirmed by Act of Parliament six or seven Times after There is a Secret concerning them Of late Ministers have subscribed to all of them but by Act of Parliament that confirm'd them they ought only to subscribe to those Articles which contain matter of Faith and the Doctrine of the Sacraments as appears by the first Subscriptions But Bishoâ— Bancroft in the Convocation held in King Jame's days he began it that Ministers should subscribe to three Things to the King's Supremacy to the Common-Prayer and to the Thirty Nine Articles many of them do not contain matter of Faith Is it matter of Faith how the Church should be govern'd Whether Infants should be baptized Whether we have any Property in our Goods c. Baptism 1. 'T Was a good way to persuade Men to be christned to tell them that they had a Foulness about them viz. Original Sin that could not be washed away but by
to be taken off and offer'd any Preferment in the Church that he would make choice of Luther answered if he had offer'd half as much at first he would have accepted it but now he had gone so far he could not come back In Truth he had made himself a greater thing than they could make him the German Princes courted him he was become the Author of a Sect ever after to be call'd Lutherans So have our Preachers done that are against the Bishops they have made themselves greater with the People than they can be made the other way and therefore there is the less Charity probably in bringing them off Charity to Strangers is enjoyn'd in the Text by Strangers is there understood those that are not of our own Kin Strangers to your Blood not those you cannot tell whence they come that is to be charitable to your Neighbours whom you know to be honest poor People Christmass 1. CHristmass succeeds the Saturnalia the same time the same number of Holy-days then the Master waited upon the Servant like the Lord of Misrule 2. Our Meats and our Sports much of them have Relation to Church-works The Coffin of our Christmass-Pies in shape long is in Imitation of the Cratch our chusing Kings and Queens on Twelfth-Night hath reference to the three Kings So likewise our eating of Fritters whipping of Tops roasting of Herrings Jack of Lents c. they were all in Imitation of Church-works Emblems of Martyrdom Our Tansies at Easter have reference to the bitter Herbs tho' at the same time 't was always the Fashion for a Man to have a Gammon of Bacon to shew himself to be no Jew Christians 1. IN the High-Church of Jerusalem the Christians were but another Sect of Jews that did believe the Messias was come To be called was nothing else but to become a Christian to have the Name of a Christian it being their own Language For among the Jews when they made a Doctor of Law 't was said he was called 2. The Turks tell their People of a Heaven where there is sensible Pleasure but of a Hell where they shall suffer they don't know what The Christians quite invert this Order they tell us of a Hell where we shall feel sensible Pain but of a Heaven where we shall enjoy we can't tell what 3. Why did the Heathens object to the Christians that they worship an Asses Head You must know that to a Heathen a Jew and a Christian were all one that they regarded him not so he was not one of them Now that of the Asses Head might proceed from such a Mistake as this by the Jews Law all the Firstlings of Cattle were to be offered to God except a young Ass which was to be redeemed a Heathen being present and seeing young Calves and young Lambs kill'd at their Sacrifices only young Asses redeem'd might very well think they had that silly Beast in some high Estimation and thence might imagine they worshipped it as a God Church 1. HEretofore the Kingdom let the Church alone let them do what they would because they had something else to think of viz. Wars but now in time of Peace we begin to examine all things will have nothing but what we like grow dainty and wanton just as in a Family the Heir uses to go a hunting he never considers how his Meal is drest takes a bit and away but when he stays within then he grows curious he does not like this nor he does not like that he will have his Meat drest his own way or peradventure he will dress it himself 2. It hath ever been the Gain of the Church when the King will let the Church have no Power to cry down the King and cry up the Church But when the Church can make use of the King's Power then to bring all under the King's Prerogative the Catholicks of England go one way and the Court-Clergy another 3. A glorious Church is like a magnificent Feast there is all the Variety that may be but every one chuses out a Dish or two that he likes and lets the rest alone how glorious soever the Church is every one chuses out of it his own Religion by which he governs himself and lets the rest alone 4. The Laws of the Church are most favourable to the Church because they were the Church's own making as the Heralds are the best Gentlemen because they make their own Pedigree 5. There is a Question about that Article concerning the Power of the Church whether these Words of having Power in Controversies of Faith were not stoln in but 't is most certain they were in the Book of Articles that was confirm'd though in some Editions they have been left out But the Article before tells you who the Church is not the Clergy but Coetus sidelium Church of Rome 1. BEfore a Juglar's Tricks are discover'd we admire him and give him Money but afterwards we care not for them so 't was before the Discovery of the Juggling of the Church of Rome 2. Catholicks say we out of our Charity believe they of the Church of Rome may be saved But they do not believe so of us Therefore their Church is better according to our selves First some of them no doubt believe as well of us as we do of them but they must not say so Besides is that an Argument their Church is better than ours because it has less Charity 3. One of the Church of Rome will not come to our Prayers does that agree he doth not like them I would fain see a Catholick leave his Dinner because a Nobleman's Chaplain says Grace nor haply would he leave the Prayers of the Church if going to Church were not made a Mark of Distinction between a Protestant and a Papist Churches 1. THE Way coming into our great Churches was anciently at the West-Door that Men might see the Altar and all the Church before them the other Doors were but Posterns City 1. WHat makes a City Whether a Bishoprick or any of that Nature Answer 'T is according to the first Charter which made them a Corporation If they are incorporated by Name of Civitas they are a City if by the Name of Burgum then they are a Burrough 2. The Lord Mayor of London by their first Charter was to be presented to the King in his Absence to the Lord Chief Justiciary of England afterwards to the Lord Chancellor now to the Barons of the Exchequer but still there was a Reservation that for their Honour they should come once a Year to the King as they do still Clergy 1. THough a Clergy-man have no Faults of his own yet the Faults of the whole Tribe shall be laid upon him so that he shall be sure not to lack 2. The Clergy would have us believe them against our own Reason as the Woman would have had her Husband against his own Eyes What! will you believe your own Eyes before your own sweet
and both are Humane For Example suppose the Word Egg were in the Text I say 't is meant an Hen-Egg you say a Goose-Egg neither of these are exprest therefore they are Humane Inventions and I am sure the newer the Invention the worse old Inventions are best 2. If we must admit nothing but what we read in the Bible what will become of the Parliament for we do not read of that there Iudgments 1. WE cannot tell what is a Judgment of God 't is presumption to take upon us to know In time of Plague we know we want Health and therefore we pray to God to give us Health in time of War we know we want Peace and therefore we pray to God to give us Peace Commonly we say a Judgment falls upon a Man for something in him we cannot abide An Example we have in King James concerning the Death of Henry the Fourth of France one said he was kill'd for his Wenching another said he was kill'd for turning his Religion No says King James who could not abide fighting he was kill'd for permitting Duels in his Kingdom Judge 1. WE see the Pageants in Cheapside the Lions and the Elephants but we do not see the Men that carry them we see the Judges look big look like Lions but we do not see who moves them 2. Little things do great works when the great things will not If I should take a Pin from the Ground a little pair of Tongues will do it when a great Pair will not Go to a Judge to do a Business for you by no means he will not hear of it but go to some small Servant about him and he will dispatch it according to your hearts desire 3. There could be no Mischief in the Common-Wealth without a Judge Tho' there be false Dice brought in at the Groom-Porters and cheating offer'd yet unless he allow the Cheating and judge the Dice to be good there may be hopes of fair Play Juggling 1. 'T IS not Juggling that is to be blam'd but much Juggling for the World cannot be Govern'd without it All your Rhetorick and all your Elench's in Logick come within the compass of Juggling Jurisdiction 1. THere 's no such Thing as Spiritual Jurisdiction all is Civil the Churche's is the same with the Lord Mayors Suppose a Christian came into a Pagan Country how can you fancy he shall have any Power there he finds faults with the Gods of the Country well they will put him to Death for it when he is a Martyr what follows Does that argue he has any spiritual Jurisdiction If the Clergy say the Church ought to be govern'd thus and thus by the Word of God that is Doctrine all that is not Discipline 2. The Pope he challenges Jurisdiction over all the Bishops they pretend to it as well as he the Presbyterians they would have it to themselves but over whom is all this the poor Laymen Jus Divinum 1. ALL things are held by Jus Divinum either immediately or mediately 2. Nothing has lost the Pope so much in his Supremacy as not acknowledging what Princes gave him 'T is a scorn upon the Civil Power and an unthankfulness in the Priest But the Church runs to Jus divinum lest if they should acknowledge what they have by positive Law it might be as well taken from them as given to them King 1. A King is a thing Men have made for their own Sakes for quietness-sake Just as in a Family one Man is appointed to buy the Meat if every Man should buy what the other lik'd not or what the other had bought before so there would be a confusion But that Charge being committed to one he according to his Discretion pleases all if they have not what they would have one day they shall have it the next or something as good 2. The word King directs our Eyes suppose it had been Consul or Dictator to think all Kings alike is the same folly as if a Consul of Aleppo or Smyrna should claim to himself the same Power that a Consul at Rome What am not I a Consul or a Duke of England should think himself like the Duke of Florence nor can it be imagin'd that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie the same in Greek as the Hebrew Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did with the Jews Besides let the Divines in their Pulpits say what they will they in their practice deny that all is the Kings They sue him and so does all the Nation whereof they are a part What matter is it then what they Preach or Teach in the Schools 3. Kings are all individual this or that King there is no Species of Kings 4. A King that claims Priviledges in his own Country because they have them in another is just as a Cook that claims Fees in one Lord's House because they are allowed in another If the Master of the House will yield them well and good 5. The Text Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's makes as much against Kings as for them for it says plainly that some things are not Caesars But Divines make choice of it first in Flattery and then because of the other part adjoyn'd to it Render unto God the things that are Gods where they bring in the Church 6. A King outed of his Country that takes as much upon him as he did at home in his own Court is as if a Man on high and I being upon the Ground us'd to lift up my voice to him that he might hear me at length should come down and then expects I should speak as loud to him as I did before King of England 1. THE King can do no wrong that is no Process can be granted against him What must be done then Petition him and the King writes upon the Petition soit droit fait and sends it to the Chancery and then the business is heard His Confessor will not tell him he can do no wrong 2. There 's a great deal of difference between Head of the Church and Supream Governour as our Canons call the King Conceive it thus there is in the Kingdom of England a Colledge of Physicians the King is Supream Governour of those but not Head of them nor President of the Colledge nor the best Physician 3. After the Dissolution of Abbies they did not much advance the King's Supremacy for they only car'd to exclude the Pope hence have we had several Translations of the Bible upon us But now we must look to it otherwise the King may put upon us what Religion he pleases 4. 'T was the old way when the King of England had his House there were Canons to sing Service in his Chappel so at Westminster in St. Stephen's Chappel where the House of Commons sits from which Canons the Street call'd Canon-row has its Name because they liv'd there and he had also the Abbot and his Monks and all these the King's House 5. The
Sentence Salus populi suprema Lex esto for we apply it as if we ought to forsake the known Law when it may be most for the advantage of the People when it means no such thing For first 't is not Salus populi suprema Lex est but esto it being one of the Laws of the Twelve Tables and after divers Laws made some for Punishment some for Reward then follows this Salus populi suprema Lex esto That is in all the Laws you make have a special Eye to the Good of the People and then what does this concern the way they now go 2. Objection He that makes one is greater than he that is made the People make the King ergo c. Answer This does not hold for if I have 1000 l. per Annum and give it you and leave my self ne'er a Penny I made you but when you have my Land you are greater than I. The Parish makes the Constable and when the Constable is made he governs the Parish The Answer to all these Doubts is Have you agreed so if you have then it must remain till you have alter'd it Pleasure 1. PLeasure is nothing else but the intermission of Pain the enjoying of some thing I am in great trouble for 'till I have it 2. 'T is a wrong way to proportion other Mens Pleasures to our selves 't is like a Childs using a little Bird O poor Bird thou shalt sleep with me so lays it in his Bosome and stifles it with his hot â—reath the Bird had rather be in the cold Air And yet too 't is the most pleasing Flattery to like what other Men like 3. 'T is most undoubtedly true that all Men are equally given to their Pleasure only thus one Mans Pleasure lies one way and anothers another Pleasures are all alike simply considered in themselves he that hunts or he that governs the Common-Wealth they both please themselves alike only we commend that whereby we our selves receive some Benefit As if a Man place his Delight in things that tend to the common Good he that takes Pleasure to hear Sermons enjoys himself as much as he that hears Plays and could he that loves Plays endeavour to love Sermons possibly he might bring himself to it as well as to any other Pleasure As first it may seem harsh and tedious but afterwards 't would be pleasing and delightful So it falls out in that which is the great Pleasure of some Men Tobacco at first they could not abide it and now they cannot be without it 4. Whilst you are upon Earth enjoy the good Things that are here to that end were they given and be not melancholly and wish your self in Heaven If a King should give you the keeping of a Castle with all things belonging to it Orchards Gardens c. and bid you use them withal promise you that after twenty Years to remove you to the Court and to make you a Privy Councellor If you should neglect your Castle and refuse to eat of those Fruits and sit down and whine and wish you were a Privy Councellor do you think the King would be pleas'd with you 5. Pleasures of Meat Drink Cloaths c. are forbidden those that know not how to use them just as Nurses cry pah when they see a Knife in a Child's Hand they will never say any thing to a Man Philosophy 1. WHen Men comfort themselves with Philosophy 't is not because they have got two or three Sentences but because they have digested those Sentences and made them their own So upon the Matter Philosophy is nothing but Discretion Poetry 1. OVid was not only a fine Poet but as a Man may speak a great Canon Lawyer as appears in his Fasti where we have more of the Festivals of the old Romans than any where else 't is pity the rest are lost 2. There is no reason Plays should be in Verse either in Blank or Rhime only the Poet has to say for himself that he makes something like that which somebody made before him The old Poets had no other reason but this their Verse was sung to Musick otherwise it had been a senseless thing to have fetter'd up themselves 3. I never converted but two the one was Mr. Crashaw from writing against Plays by telling him a way how to understand that Place of putting on Womens Apparel which has nothing to do in the Business as neither has it that the Fathers speak against Plays in their Time with reason enough for they had real Idolatries mix'd with their Plays having three Altars perpetually upon the Stage The other was a Doctor of Divinity from preaching against Painting which simply in it self is no more hurtful than putting on my Cloaths or doing any thing to make my self like other Folks that I may not be odious nor offensive to the Company Indeed if I do it with an ill Intention it alters the Case so if I put on my Gloves with an intention to do a mischief I am a Villain 4. 'T is a fine thing for Children to learn to make Verse but when they come to be Men they must speak like other Men or else they will be laugh'd at 'T is ridiculous to speak or write or preach in Verse As 't is good to learn to dance a Man may learn his Leg learn to go handsomely but 't is ridiculous for him to dance when he should go 5. 'T is ridiculous for a Lord to print Verses 't is well enough to make them to please himself but to make them publick is foolish If a Man in a private Chamber twirls his Band-strings or plays with a Rush to please himself 't is well enough but if he should go into Fleetstreet and sit upon a Stall and twirl a Band-string or play with a Rush then all the Boys in the Street would laugh at him 6. Verse proves nothing but the quantity of Syllables they are not meant for Logick Pope 1. A Pope's Bull and a Pope's Brief differ very much as with us the Great Seal and Privy Seal The Bull being the highest Authority the King can give the Brief is of less The Bull has a Leaden Seal upon Silk hanging upon the Instrument the Brief has sub Annulo Piscatoris upon the side 2. He was a wise Pope that when one that used to be merry with him before he was advanc'd to the Popedom refrain'd afterwards to come at him presuming he was busie in governing the Christian World the Pope sends for him bids him come again and says he we will be merry as as we were before for thou little thinkest what a little Foolery governs the whole World 3. The Pope in sending Relicks to Princes does as Wenches do by their Wassels at New-years-tide they present you with a Cup and you must drink of a slabby stuff but the meaning is you must give them Moneys ten times more than it is worth 4. the Pope is Infallible where he hath Power