Blood is so great a Crime and I know every man is careful of giving his Voice in the Case of Blood I should be very cautious my self and if I were a Judge I would rather save twenty Guilty than condemn one Innocent I bless God I have not the least desire of the Death of any man and would not for all the world have the innocent Blood of all the word lye upon me I beg your Lordships pardon that I have troubled you thus long I shall now as well as I can apply my self to my particular Defence I do my Lords before I can go on to it desire I may have such Depositions as have been taken against me and the liberty to look on your Journal Book when I have occasion I do particularly desire the Depositions of Oats upon which I was committed by my Lord Chief Justice the two Depositions of Stephen Dugdale taken at Stafford before two Justices of the Peace Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon I desire the Depositions taken before I think it was Mr. Warcup and Sir William Poultney or some other two Justices which was made by Turbervile and then I shall compare their Testimonies together And I hope shall give you a clear account that they are perjured persons How without these to go on to my just Defence I cannot well tell Lord High Steward What do you say to it Gentlemen you hear what my Lord prays Sir Franc. Winnington The Witnesse are here and have been heard viva voce As we cannot use any of the Depositions of which he speaks so no more can they be used by him Lord High Steward If I understand my Lord aright this is the thing he desires says he You have brought Witnesses against me viva voce they have been examined here and they have been examined elsewhere and their Depositions are upon Record I desire to confront what they have said here with what they have said contrary in other places Mr. Serj. Maynard If there be any thing expressed by my Lord wherein they have contradicted themselves and produce that Deposition he may do that but to desire to have all the Depositions that have been made by our Witnesses is a strange request When there is occasion to use them upon any particular point he may produce them if he can Lord High Steward Can you object why my Lord should not have Copies of any thing that is upon the Journal and Depositions that are sworn before a Magistrate which may be of use to him Sir William Jones My Lords We do not object against it but my Lords I think it is out of time of to desire it What was sworn and is entred in your Lordships Journal was sworn above two years since My Lord or any man else might repair to them they are matters of Record and for ought we know were never denyed to any especially if they desired it in the House but after two years time and after three weeks time given to prepare for this Tryal when my Lord could not but know what Witnesses would be examined before your Lordships for him to come now and desire such and such Depositions may be produced which if by Law he might be allowed to do he might have done before is to no other purpose under favour but to gain time and to cause our Evidence to be forgotten And therefore we must humbly pray it may not be admitted My Lords I think it is an unusual thing My Lords the Judges are neer your Lordships I suppose they will inform your Lordships If a man be tryed at the Assizes for him to desire a Coppy of the Informations remaining in Court by which he may except against the Witnesses is what the Court does not use to grant But if your Lordships proceedings vary from the common proceedings of other Courts then I resort to what I said before Whether your Lordships will think this a proper time when he might have had it in the Parliament that was first Dissolved and then in the Parliament that was last Dissolved Now to desire those Copies at this time is to put off the Cause for that which perhaps he cannot be furnished with in a day or two Sir Fr. VVin. I would add but one word if your Lordships please to give me leave My Lords you have the Learned Judges near you who will inform you Whether ever when a man was accused of a Capital Offence and the Evidence against him had been fully heard by the Court and by himself he was admitted to require from the Prosecutors the Copies of Examinations formerly taken before other Persons Does my Lord intend to have time to peruse those Examinations and to have the Copies of them that he may consult in private with his Counsel to find out Exceptions and with his Witnesses to make them good My Lords I must say that in my short Experience and I have attended a considerable time upon the greatest Court for Trial of Offenders I never heard such a thing asked by a Prisoner either at the Bar of the Kings Bench or at the Assizes I speak with all the tenderness imaginable because we are in a matter of Blood and God-forbid but the Lord at the Bar should have true and equal Justice done him But if I take my Lord right this seems but an Artifice to delay the Trial of which it is our duty to be very cautious Indeed I have seen the Judges upon trial of a Criminal call for the Depositions or Informations from the Clerk or the Justice of the Peace who took them and caused them to be read but for a Prisoner to call for Examinations at the Bar from the Prosecutors Et ex Debita Justitia to demand them is a thing which as it never has been so I think will not be admitted at this time especially when we are now almost at the end of the Cause and with all Modesty and Submission to your Lordships I look upon it as a very strange and unreasonable Demand L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford What is the reason your Lordship had not all this while Copies of the Journal which is that you now ask L. Stafford I shall not undertake that I am able to give your Lordships a reason for it because I think wherein I have been mistaken as to point of Time your Lordships will not tie me up to that But this Gentleman that spoke last is not acquainted with me and does not know me for I have no desire to go back or to put off this Trial But if it cannot be done to Day I am as guilty to Morrow as I am to Day and I desire no more than what he says hath been done in the like Cases I do desire my Lord the Informations and Depositions of Dugdale Oates and Turbervile may be produced and read and I will make Observations upon them in my Defence I desire those Affidavits may be brought L. H. Stew. Affidavits taken When and where
L. Stafford Of Dr. Oats that was read in your Lordships House I heard it L. H. Stew. Let us understand your Lordships demands that when my Lords are withdrawn I may know what Questions to put to them and acquaint them with your desires The one is the Journal of the Lords House which is always before their Lordships and you might have had Copies long since The next thing you ask is an Affidavit of Dugdale if this Affidavit is entred into the Journal that supplies your Demands if it be not entred there where shall we find it L. Stafford I do not know L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose Affidavit that we know not where 't is filed L. Stafford I know it was before the Council and I believe my Accusers have it I desire the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may produce it Sir John Trevor I have seen none nor have none L. Stafford The one was taken the 24. of December this time two year and the other the 29. L. H. Stew. My Lord will your Lordship give me leave to tell you you ought to be provided with some particular exception and not to make your demand in general If your Lordship will say Dugdale did swear such and such things which are contrary to what he now affirms we know what to make of it but to hunt after an Affidavit that we know not where to find to pick something out of it that I do not understand L. Stafford I appeal to my Lord of Essex and my Lord Bridgewater whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two Affidavits of Dugdale L. H. Stew. Suppose it be not to be found my Lord L. Stafford Then I must have patience and submit L. H. Stew. Can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now L. Stafford My Lord I conceive it was never denied before but your Lordships may do what you please L. H. Stew. Well my Lord let us go on to the next The Affidavits of Dugdale if they be entred on the Journal may be ready if not thenâ— shall acquaint their Lordships and they will direct what is fit in the case L. Stafford Then there is the Affidavit of Oats before my Lord Chief Justice upon which I was committed the next day which was Friday it was read in your Lordships House L. H. Stew. I believe that is entred upon the Journal and so will be ready to be used L. Staff I do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn I desire two Affidavits more that were taken before the Justices of the Peace of Middlesex who examined Mr. Turbervile twice L. H. Stew. What Justice of the Peace L. Staff Mr. Warcupp Sir William Poultney and Sir Thomas Stringer I desire I may not be misunderstood I do not desire to have them to instruct my Counsel or advise with them upon them but I cannot make my Defence without them L. H. Stew. Those are voluntary extrajudicial Affidavits that no body is bound to keep L. Staff They were spoken of in the Votes of the House of Commons L. H. Steward What say you Gentlemen to it Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords because my Lord at the Bar is pleased to insinuate as if we knew where those Affidavits are which he seems to desire and because your Lordship was pleased to say that the Commons in Parliament are the Grand-Jury of the Kingdom I desire to say one thing That certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several Facts and Circumstances that induced us to impeach him if it shall be demanded by the Prisoner at the Bar. L. H. Steward I wish you would answer the Question and not argue upon it whether those Affidavits of Turbervile may not be produced for 't is my Lords Exception against your Witnesses that he swears several ways and by those Affidavits of Turbervile he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day Sir Fr. Win. My Lords the House of Commons never administer an Oath and therefore it is not to be said to us but my Lord Stafford must go to the particular Offices where they are to be found L. H. Stew. I do not ask you where my Lord should find them but whether if they can be found you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read Mr. Serj. Maynard When they are produced we will give an Answer L. Stafford My Lords I am informed this is the substance of the Affidavit That Turbervile did swear before two Justices of the Peace whether they be of the House of Commons or no I cann't tell that he spoke with me at Doway and in Paris in the years 73. and 77. and now he says 72. and 75. I am informed my Lords and I appeal to the House of Commons they are all Persons of Honour and Worth if my Information be mistaken I beg their Pardon and yours for 't whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it L. H. Stew. Are these all you do demand L. Stafford Yes my Lords Whether this was true or no I don't know â— is what I have been told I appeal to the House of Commons who are all worthy persons I do not believe I have an Enemy among them they know whether I speak true or no. L. H. Stew. When will your Lordship be ready to make your Defence L. Stafford As soon as ever I have them I will not stay a minute a moment an instant I desire not to shew my Counsel nor any one for my Tryal is a thing that I have long desired Therefore I would not be mistaken as if I would put off the Cause I am innocent and shall be so while I live and hope I shall make it appear so I beg if this be a matter of Law whether I may have them or not that my Counsel be heard to it L. H. Stew. This is a matter of Fact L. Stafford I insist upon it as things without which I cannot make my Defence I am innocent and I suppose not one of the House of Commons nor one of your Lordships will debar me of that by which I may make my Innocency appear Lord High Steward You cannot know my Lords pleasure till they are withdrawn Sir William Jones Before your Lordships withdraw I hope you will please to hear us a few words which we think may be for the Service of this Court. My Lords what Evidence is before your Lordships 't is in your Lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my Lord Stafford but for this Evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for admits of another consideration My Lords if we were conscious of any thing in these Affidavits that were for my Lords Advantage and knew where they were we would
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
Have you done with Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom will you proceed against next L. Stafford Dr. Oats L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats L. Stafford Only give me leave to say one thing my Lords that you were pleased to say I should have Copies of the two Depositions of the Twenty fourth and Twenty ninth of December And I had one to inquire but can't find that of the Twenty ninth Then Dr. Oats stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Dr. Oats my Lord Lord Stafford This Dr. Oats if your Lordships please I desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life L. H. Steward When was the first time Dr Oats you saw my Lord Stafford Dr. Oats My Lords the first time I saw this Gentleman at the Bar was as near as I remember at Mr. Fenwicks L. H. Stew. That was in Drury lane Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When was that Dr. Oats That was as near as I remember in June L. H. Stew. Was it that time the Commission you spoke of was delivered Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you see that Commission Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you read it Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. From whom was it Dr. Oats I cannot be positive as to that but as near as I remember it was signed as the rest was signed L. H. Stew. How was that Dr. Oats Johannes Paulus Oliva L. H. Stew. You read it Dr. Oats Yes I did my Lords L. H. Stew. It was a Commission to be Pay-Master of the Army was it not Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. And it was delivered to my Lord Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. By the Name of Mr. Howard of Effingham Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What says your Lordship to this L. Stafford What is it possible for me to say against this I declare to your Lordships in the presence of God I never saw the man in my life I never went by any Name since I had the Honour of being a Peer but by the name of Stafford I never heard of Mr. Fenwick the Jesuit nor by the name Thompson till this Plot was discovered and he taken This you may believe or not if you please but this is as true as I am alive My Lords I desire I may have out of the Journals the Deposition on which I was committed L. H. Stew. Turn to the Journal L. Stafford It was read as I remember Friday 25. Octob. 78. Then the Clerk turned to the Journal and read Die Veneris 25. die Octobris 1678. THe Lord Viscount Stafford acquainted the House That he was informed that there was a Warrant issued out from the Lord Chief Justice of England to apprehend him which he thought fit to acquaint their Lordships with and submitted himself their Lordships Judgment The Lord Chief Justice being present was commanded to give the House an account of the business who said That last night about nine of the clock he received a Letter from the Speaker of the House of Commons dated from the Speakers Chair to come to the House of Commons about business of great concernment Accordingly he attended the House of Commons where the Speaker told him that the House of Commons had receiv'd Accusations of High Treason against five Lords and some Gentlemen and desired him to issue out his Warrants for their Apprehension The Persons were the Earl of Powis Viscount Stafford the Lord Arundel of Wardour the Lord Petres and the Lord Bellasis And upon this he issued out his Warrants for their Apprehension having taken the Examination of Titus Oats upon Oath That the Earl of Powis and the Lord Arundel were brought to him this morning in custody and he advised them to render themselves to the Gatehouse where now they are Upon this the Examination of Oats was read whereby it did appear That the Lord Viscount Stafford was charged to be in a Conspiracy of Treason against the King The Lord Viscount Stafford denyed the Fact and after this withdrew And after a while the House was informed that his Lordship would render himself to the Lord Chief Justice L. H. Stew. This is all that is in the Journal L. Stafford Then my Lords if your Lordships please to remember all of you that were there that I was accused by Dr. Oats whose Depositions I desire to see taken before my Lord Chief Justice that he had seen Letters of mine written to Fenwick Harcourt and some others three or four Jesuits in which I was consenting to the Plot that I had sent my Son to Lisbon yet I would be as kind to the Jesuits as before though there was some difference between us These Affidavits I desire to see which as I take it were read before your Lordships that day L. H. Stew. The Affidavit was taken by my Lord Chief Justice in the House of Commons where he did attend them upon their Summons I know not if the Original were read in the House of Lords or the Copy but it seems it is not entred into the Lords Journal but your Lordship had an Order to take Copies of all things you would have demanded and if you would not I cannot tell what to say to it L. Stafford Truly I could not take a Copy because I did not know where it was I desire my Lord Chief Justice may be asked where it is that is all I desire and I will then go on L. H. Stew. I think Dr. Oats does say at this time that he had seen Letters of your Lordships offering your Correspondence and Assistance L. Stafford If Dr. Oats will own he said no more than is in that Affidavit I am content Lord High Steward Have you any Copy of your own Examination Doctor Oats Dr. Oats Yes my Lords I think I have it here L. H. Stew. Marry that is very well produce it then Do you oppose it Gentlemen Managers No we agree we desire the Truth may come out Then Dr. Oats looking amongst his Papers drew out one and offered it to the Court. L. H. Stew. Is that a true Copy of your first Examination Dr. Oates My Lords I will not swear it but it was given me for a true Copy L. H. Stew. By whom was it given you Dr. Oates I can't remember now 't is two years ago Sir W. Jones Unless we know whence it comes or what authority it hath we cannot consent it should be read L. H. Steward Had you it from my Lord Cheif Justice or any servant of his Dr. Oates I can't tell whether Sir Charles Harbord gave it me or no. Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Sir Charles Harbord might be of the Committee of Examinations but the Examination for which my Lord asked was not in the Committee nor before the house My Lord chief Justice retired out of the house Virtute Officii took it Now it was very fair in Mr.
told you of it M. Hanson Old Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips the Parson of Tixall L. H. Steward Were they in the House at that time Mr. Hanson Yes L. H. Stew. Were they by when the discourse was Mr. Hanson Mr Sambidge was going to drink a Bottle of Ale as he said at my Lords Bowling Green and for a while he sits down and presently Mr. Philips comes in and sits down and Mr. Dugdale came out of the Parlour into the Room where we were come said I What News said he They say there is a Justice of Peace murdered at Westminster Sir Fr. Winn. Was Philips in the Room Mr. Hanson Yes he hath forgot it but he was there L. H. Steward Did Philips hear it Mr. Hanson He might have heard it if he would L. H. Stew. Had you any discourse with Philips about this since Mr. Hanson No my Lords Sir Fr. VVinn He is positive both as to the day of the month and as to the week and that both of them were present Sir W. Jones My Lords â—e shall prove to you now That the Post which comes out of London on Saturday comes to this place on Munday morning and those which goes out of Tuesday come there on Thursday morning and the Post which goes out of London on Thursday comes to this place on Saturday morning L. Stafford He says the Post comes such and such days I own it and in the morning too Sir Will. Jones Then I go on my Lords to another point which will be a farther Confirmation of the matter For my Lords we will prove to you and that by men of Quality that the noise of the Murder was in that Countrey the Wednesday and Thursday following the Murder Your Lordships please to observe Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was killed the Twelfth of October he was found the Thursday following which was as I take it the 16. or 17. of October We will prove now that the noise and knowledge of the Murder was in the Countrey about Tixal before he was found here near London Now we only bring this as a Confirmation of this matter that it was revealed at the Alehouse and so it went about the Countrey And for this we call Edward Birch Esquire and John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. VVinn Before we examine them I would state the time Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was missing on Saturday which was the 12. of October his Murder was not discovered till Thursday We call these persons to a double purpose the one to fortifie what our Witnesses have said and the other to shew that this man was dispatched by these Mens Confederates because they knew it so soon which could not have been but that they were in the Conspiracy themselves L. Staff I desire only that he may say whether he means me among the rest Sir Fr. Winn. My Lord I will do you no wrong I speak of those at Tixal Then Mr. Birch was sworn L. H. Steward When did you hear of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey Mr. Birch Mr. Birch My Lords I did not hear any thing of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey till the Saturday-Post but I presume that which these Gentlemen call me for is this I did hear before Thursday I think Tuesday was the first day that there was a Justice of Peace of Middlesex killed and it was thought the Papists murdered him and this on Tuesday and Wednesday was all over the Countrey that is Tuesday after his death for I 'll tell your Lordships how I came to take notice of it for hearing such a report in the Countrey I did not so much take notice of it but being at the Kings Bench Bar at the Tryal of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey I found upon the Evidence that the Body was not found till the Thursday after he was killed that made me recollect my self as to what I had heard in the Countrey and as I stood at the Bar I told several Gentlemen that I did perfectly remember before Thursday it was discoursed of in the Countrey by several Gentlemen where I lived Sir Will. Jones Call John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. Winn. Some of my Lords here I perceive desire he should be asked a more particular Question L. H. Steward I desire to ask him this You heard of it you say on Tuesday that a Justice of Peace of Middlesex was killed I desire to know who you heard it from Mr. Birch Truly my Lords I can't tell For I 'll tell your Lordships I have some certain days that I constantly appoint to be at home in when people come about business to me Among these people several came that asked me what news I had from London I told them I had received a Letter or two by the Post and I shewed them those Letters there was little or nothing in them Thereupon they asked me if I did not hear of a Justice of Middlesex that was killed No said I. How come you to hear it says one I come through Cank which is within half a mile of mine own house and as I came through there came a person from Heywood that said 't is all the news about Tixal and Heywood and that part of the Countrey And this was said to me in my own House Sir Fr. Winn. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Birch About a mile Sir Fr. Winn. Now my Lords I would ask Mr. Turton to the fame business Mr. Turton was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Turton pray hear When did you first hear in Staffordshire of the death of a Justice of Peace of Middlesex Mr. Turton My Lords there are two Races in that Countrey at a place near Lichfield and they are about the middle of October the one that year was the 15. the other the 18. the one the Tuesday and the other the Friday I was at both of them and one of the days which I cannot be positive in there was one Mr. Whitehall a Justice of Peace in Staffordshire called me from the company and desired to speak with me by my self Said he Do you hear any news No said I. Do you hear nothing said he of a Justice of Peace that is murdered I then had not heard of Sir Edmundbury Godfreys being missing No says he don't you hear he is murdered Do you know him Yes said I how do you hear it says he 't is a report about us but I did not then believe it but the next Post-day which was Munday I did hear it it was either Tuesday or Friday one of those days Sir Will. Jones If it were either one or 'tother 't is as strange and the Evidence as strong for his Body was not found till Thursday Sir Fr. VVin. And will your Lordships please to observe that by that time the report had got the name of Godfrey too when at that same time we in London did not know what was become of him Mr. Turton He asked me if I knew Sir Edmundbury
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
Death of the King For the Party is indicted upon one particular Overt Act but he is indicted for Treason in Conspiring the Death of the King and each of thâ— Witnesses being to prove that though they speak to several Acts they are good Witnesses according to the Law Mr. Baron Weston My Lords I am of the same Opinion with my Reverend Brethren who have spoke before me Mr. Justice Charlton My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to Commit Treason and escape without questioning if it should be otherwise But this is the first time that I have heard it hath been made a Question that to the same Treason there must be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. It hath been adjudged always according to the Law that to prove Treason there must be two Witnesses but to any Overt Act there needs but onâ— Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford By the uniform Opinion of all my Lords the Judges there is no colour to doubt the Law in that point which you desire to argue So that as to that point you must rest satisfied you are not to have Counsel to speak to it For the rest I have no Commission yet from my Lords to say any thing Lord Stafford Will your Lordships give me leave to say one thing to what I have heard I would answer if I might only to one Judge I think they call him Judge Atkins Lord High Steward Your Lordship may say what you please Lord Stafford My Lords I hear a strange Position I never heard the like before in my life and 't is what he said if I am in the wrong I beg your Lordships pardon and his too He told your Lordships the Reason why the Law should be so was because else a great many of those persons that have already been Executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to Death that is an Argument I hope will not weigh with your Lordships or any body for 't is better that a Thousand persons that are Guilty should escape than that one Innocent person should die much more then that it should not be declared that such a Judgment was not well given Lord High Steward Look you my Lord where many Reasons are given 't is easie to make a Reply to one of the least among many that was one Reason given but the true Reason is this if the Law were otherwise there would be great safety in Conspiring the Death of the King Lord Stafford My Lords I say nothing further as to the rest but this stuck with me I am sorry to hear a Judge should say any such thing and though I am in such a weak and disturbed Condition I assure your Lordships my Blood rises at it Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber The Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to the Bar in Westminster-Hall on Munday morning next at Ten of the Clock After which the House of Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock on Munday morning The Sixth Day Munday December 6. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven in the morning the Lords being Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there Erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were Seated as before The Court being Sate Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant Commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began Lord High Steward Read my Lord Stafford's Petition To the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament Assembled The humble Petition of William Viscount of Stafford Humbly shewing unto your Lordships that he hath some things to offer unto your Lordships in order to clear himself which he hopeth to do Your Petitioner doth therefore with all humility most humbly beseech your Lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your Lordships Consideration And your Petitioner shall ever pray c. Stafford Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford my Lords have been willing upon your Petition to come and hear what that is that your Lordship hath to offer And they would know whether it be matter of Fact or matter of Law For your Lordship must know that as to Witnesses the Process is closed Lord Stafford I do not pretend any more Witnesses my Lords Lord High Steward Then my Lord what is it that you would say Lord Stafford My Lords I did Yesterday receive an Order from your Lordships and upon that and some other things that I have to trouble your Lordships with I did petition for this favour which I humbly thank your Lordships for granting If I be impertinent I shall beg your Lordships pardon and I hope you will be pleased to consider my Weakness at all times especially in this condition I am now in but I hope by your Lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly For the matters of proof I shall offer not a tittle but my Lords this Order which I received does say That the Lords Assembled in Parliament have ordered that my Counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament but I hope my Lords you will please without Offence to let me offer to your Lordships my own Conceptions about it which I shall do as briefly as I can My Lords I do not conceive by this Order That your Lordships say it does or it does not continue You have given no Judgment as I know of in it when you have I shall acquiesce but I hope your Lordships will resolve that it does not And my Lords my reasons for it are two the first is because one of the Managers for the House of Commons as I take it Sir William Jones said these words and your Lordships may remember them That if there were no such President your Lordships would make a President whether you will or no that I must submit to your Lordships but then there is none yet The next thing is my Lords this whether an Impeachment be to be prosecuted in Parliament without an Indictment this my Lords I humbly hope your Lordships are resolved it ought not For I see not how truely my Lords it can be by the little reading which I have had in the Law I never found any man prosecuted in a Legal way but by an Indictment I may be mistaken and I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes but I never read of any that were prosecuted upon an Impeachment so then the Legal usual word being Indictment
apparent by these Instances that such is the frantick Zeal of some Bigotted Papists that they resolve No means to advance the Catholick Cause shall be left unattempted though it be by Fire and Sword My Lord As the Plot in General is most manifest so your Lordships part in it hath been too too plain What you did at Paris and continued to do at Tixal in Staffordshire shews a settled purpose of mind against the King and what you said at London touching Honest Will shews you were acquainted with that Conspiracy against the Kings Life which was carrying on here too And in all this there was a great Degree of Malice for your Lordship at one time called the King Heretick and Traytor to God and at another time you revil'd him for misplacing his Bounty and rewarding none but Traytors and Rebels And thus you see that which the Wise man forewarn'd you of is come upon you Curse not the King no not in thy heart for the Birds of the Air shall reveal and that which hath wings will declare the matter Three things I shall presume to recommend to your Lordships consideration In the first place Your Lordship now sees how it hath pleased God to leave you so far to your self that you are fallen into the snare and into the pit into that very pit which you were digging for others Consider therefore that God Almighty never yet left any man who did not first leave him In the next place Think a little better of it than hitherto you have done what kind of Religion that is in which the Blind Guides have been able to lead you on into so much ruin and destruction as is now like to befall you In the last place I pray your Lordship to consider That true Repentance is never too late A devout penitential sorrow joyn'd with an humble and hearty Confession is of mighty power and efficacy both with God and man There have been some of late who have refus'd to give God the Glory of his Justice by acknowledging the Crimes for which they were condemned nay who have been taught to believe that 't is a mortal Sin to confess that Crime in publick for which they have been absolv'd in private and so have not dar'd to give God that Glory which otherwise they would have done God forbid your Lordship should rest upon Forms God forbid your Lordship should be found among the number of those poor mistaken souls whom the first thing that undeceives is Death it self Perhaps your Lordship may not much esteem the Prayers of those whom you have long been taught to miscal Hereticks But whether you do or no I am to assure your Lordship That all my Lords here even they that have condemned you will never cease to pray for you that the end of your life may be Christian and Pious how Tragical soever the means are that must bring you thither And now my Lord this is the last time that I can call you My Lord for the next words I am to speak will Attaint you The Judgment of the Law is and this Court doth Award That YOU go to the place from whence you came from thence you must be drawn upon a Hurdle to the place of Execution When you come there you must be hang'd by the Neck but not till you are dead for you must be cut down alive your Privy-Members must be cut off and your Bowels ript up before your Face and thrown into the Fire Then your Head must be severed from your Body and your Body divided into four Quarters and these must be at the disposal of the King And God Almighty be merciful to your Soul Prisoner My Lords I humbly beseech you give me leave to speak a few words I do give your Lordships hearty Thanks for all your Favours to me I do here in the presence of God Almighty declare I have no Malice in my Heart to them that have condemned me I know not who they are nor desire to know I forgive them all and beseech your Lordships all to pray for me My Lords I have one humble Request to make to your Lordships and that is my Lords That the little short time I have to live a Prisoner I may not be a close Prisoner as I have been of late but that Mr. Lieutenant may have an Order that my Wife and Children and Friends may come at me I do humbly beg this Favour of your Lordships which I hope you will be pleased to give me Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I believe I may with my Lords leave tell you one thing further That my Lords as they proceed with Rigour of Justice so they proceed with all the Mercy and Compassion that may be And therefore my Lords will be humble Suitors to the King that He will remit all the Punishment but the taking off your Head Prisoner Weeping My Lords your Justice does not make me cry but your Goodness Then the Lord High Steward broke his Staff and the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Commons returned to their House and the Prisoner with the Ax born before him with the Edg towards him it being carried contrarily during his Trial was sent back to the Tower His Majesty afterwards ordered the Lord High Chancellor to issue out under the Great Seal of England the following Writs for Executing the said late Viscount Stafford the first being to the Lieutenant of the Tower to deliver him on the Twenty ninth of December 1680. between Nine and Eleven a Clock in the Forenoon at the usual place without the Tower-Gate to the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex and the other being for them then and there to receive him into their Custody and to lead him to the usual place upon Tower-Hill and there to cause his Head to be cut off and severed from his Body Which Writs were in Form following CAROLUS Secundus Dei gratia Angliae Scotiae Franciae Hiberniae Rex fidei defensor c. Locumtenenti Turris nostrae London salutem Cum Willus Vicecomes Stafford per Communes Regni nostri Angliae in Parliamento assemblat ' de alta proditione necnon diversis aliis criminibus offensis per ipsum perpetrat ' commissis impetit ' fuit Ac superinde per Dominos Temporales in praesenti Parliamento nostro convent ' triat ' convict ' debita juris forma attinct ' fuit morti adjucat ' existit Cujus quidem Judicii executio adhuc restat facienda Cumque praedictus Vicecomes Stafford in Turri nostra London sub custodia tua detent ' existit Precipimus tibi per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus quod in super vicesimum nonum diem instantis mensis Decembris inter horas nonam undecimam ante Meridiem ejusdem diei ipsum Vicecomitem Stafford usque locum usualem extra portam Turris predictae ducas ac ipsum Vicecomitibus Civitatis nostrae London Middlesex adtunc
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
that Resolution Mr. Dugdale Yes I heard every one give their particular full assent At which there was a great Hum L. H. Steward What is the meaning of this For the Honour and Dignity of publick Justice let us not carry it as if we were in a Theatre Mr. Dugdale My Lords Some times in September my Lord Stafford being at Mr. Abnets House in Stafford came once upon a Sunday morning to hear Mass I meeting him at the outward Gate of my Lord Aston's House when he alighted off his Horse after some Discourse he turned to me and told me It was a sad thing we could not say our Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long if things took effect we should have the Romish Religion established And I at that time did seem to be and really was as glad as any person could be After some time I think it was about the 20. or 21. of September my Lord Stafford sent for me into his lodging Room I think it was by his page or him that waited upon him in his Chamber and he told me I must come to my Lord and I immediately went to his Lordship he was just then arising and dressing he sent his men out and told me he had had a good Accompt from Mr. Evers and other Genlemen that I would be faithful and true to their Intentions about the introducing their Religion He told me he was likewise concerned himself and that in a very high degree and for taking away the Life of the King he offered me at that time for my Charges and Encouragement 500 l. and that I should go in October after to London with him my Lord Stafford and that I should be with him sometimes at London and sometimes at an House of my Lord Aston's about twenty five miles from London and that I should be under the care of him in London and Mr. Ireland and in the Countrey of one Mr. Parsons that knew of the Design I did then shew as much resolution to be faithful to my Lord as I could and that I would be true to what my Lord then engaged me I after went to Mr. Evers and communicated to him what my Lord Stafford said and was something in admiration at my Lord 's offering me such a Sum of Money for I doubted of my Lords Ability to make good Payment He told me that I need not sear it for Mr. Harcourt and Mr. Ireland had Money enough in their hands to defâ—ay that and other Charges and I should not want Money for the carrying it on My Lords I remember that at another time there was a meeting wherein there was a Debate about my going up and other businesses my Lord Stafford was present and there were several there besides I did not knâ—w them all then but in the first place they told me I should be made equal with one Captain Adderly that is since dead and that I should have a Reward in London I understood that the Duke of York my Lord Arundel and my Lord Bellasis and others were to give me it and speaking of the Rewards to those that were ingaged they said there would be Land enough from the Protestants to satisfie all that acted in the Design Another time my Lord Stafford discoursing in a Dining Room in my Lord Aston's House did express his great Zeal and the reason why he was such an Enemy against the King he said both he and my Lord Aston had been great Sufferers for the King and for his Father and that my Lord in particular his Grandfather or his Father had spent 30000 l. in the Kings Service and had no Recompence that he had always shewed himself Loyal to the King but whenever there came any place of Preferment to be disposed of it was rather given to such as had been Traytors and Rebels to the old King and likewise to the King himself than to any that had been had Loyal He said this was his chief Motive if there were not Religion in the Case which was of an higher nature or to that purpose L. H. Stew. When was this last Discourse Mr. Dugdale In September 78. as near as I remember for we had several Discourses L. H. Stew. This was not the time you were at my Lords Chamber Mr. Dugdale No it was in my Lord Aston's Dining Room L. H. Stew. No nor when he sent for you to offer you the 500 l. Mr. Dugdale No not at that time it was another time L. H. Stew. What Month and Year Mr. Dugdale September 78. my Lord. Mr. Foley I desire he may give your Lordships an account what assurance he had of Pardon if he did succeed Mr. Dugdale I was told I need not fear and particularly my Lord Stafford told me I should have a free Pardon for it for the King had been Excommunicated and was likewise a Traytor and a Rebel and an Enemy to Jesus Christ L. H. Steward But how could you be Pardoned From whom were you to have that Pardon Mr. Dugdale I was to be Pardoned by the Pope L. H. Stew. That was for your Sins Mr. Dugdale Yes I expected no other if I had gone on Mr. Treby Were you promised nothing else but a Pardon from the Pope Mr. Dugdale Yes I was to be Sainted Sir Will. Jones Will his Lordship please to ask him any Questions we ask him no more Mr. Foley Yes I desire another Question may be asked him that he would give an account of the Letters my Lord Stafford writ to Evers about the Design L. H. Stew. What say you to that Question Mr. Dugdale There came a Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford I knew it to be my Lords hand some might counterfeit his hand but as near as a man can swear to the hand of another in a Paper he did not see written that was my Lords-hand That things went all well beyond Sea and so he did hope they did here for the carrying on of the Design it was to this purpose expresly Mr. Treby We have done my Lords with him Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford will you ask him any Questions L. Staff My Lords I have divers Questions to ask him very many but I humbly crave your Lordships Directions if I ask him any Questions now whether I may not ask him some afterwards L. H. Steward My Lord you may ask Questions of the Witnesses as often as you please and when ever you find it useful to you God forbid there should be any time to foreclose a man from asking a Question that may save his life L. Staff I pray he may be asked how long before this time he knew of the Plot. L. H. Steward How long have you known this Plot Mr. Dugd. In general for the introducing of the Popish Religion and the incouragement to it by the Duke of Yorks being Successor I have known it 15 or 16 years by the means of Mr. Evers L. Staff My Lords I understand him he says
the King by his great Seal or little Seal command that Justice should be delaid or denied yet however the Judges shall not obey it but proceed So I hope there is no pretence of delay on my part and the benefit of that Statute shall not be denied me And that Statute of the Great Charter which cost so many of your Ancestors their Lives to maintain I hope you will never go from Now your Lordships Noble Ancestors amongst other things took great care that Justice should be denied or delayed to none and this I desire you to take into Consideration I am in your Lordships Judgment either to be Acquitted or Condemned I hope your Lordships will and I know you will lay your Hands upon your Hearts consult your Consciences and your Honours and then you will do what is Just and Equitable I doubt not My Lords Mr. Oats said I came by the name of Mr. Howard of Essingham but that I did to my Letters sign Stafford surely my Lords if I was ashamed to own my Person I should have been as much ashamed to have owned my Name He says he saw me take a Commission and whether that be an Overt Act your Lordships are to determine Upon the whole matter I conceive there is nothing proved against me but words nor pretended to but only by Oats And whether you will credit a man that so dissembles with God as I have told you I appeal to your Lordships and beg you to consider of it That these Witnesses have sworn for Money if you send to the Exchequer Office and see what Money they have received you will find by the great Sums that 't is so and then I hope you will not allow them to be heard nor credit any that swear for gain I had a Suit in Westminster-Hall that had like to have gone expresly against me only because one of my Witnesses was to gain 8 l. if the Suit went for me But pray consider how much these men have had And for the point that there are not two Witnesses I beseech your Lordships give me leave to put you in mind That not many Years ago you passed an Act against Frauds and Perjuries wherein you were so careful to preserve mens Estates that you required three Witnesses to prove a Will of Goods or Lands above 100 l. and will you allow but one Witness to take away a mans Life for Words Though your Lordships will never commit Treason yet no man can preserve himself from the Misfortune that happens to me of being falsly accused 'T is true my Lords the Managers have given an Answer to the Business of the Money by saying The King may give as liberally as he pleases but to give so great Sums whereby Men Poor before are now become Rich I think will be an Objection against their Credit My Lords I have said what I do think convenient though I think much more might be said by an abler man to your Lordships for the clearing of himself I hope I have done it nay I am confident I have and this I have done for the Memory of that Great and Blessed King who first made me a Peer that it may not be said He did me the Honour Forty Years ago to call me up to this Dignity and I should fly in the Face of his Son in so horrible a manner as these men would make me I do owe it to the Honour of my Father and Mother who I think I may safely say were both Honourable and Worthy Persons My Father was a learned man and a wise man as I may appeal to some of your Lordships who knew him well I say I owe it to their Memory and to the Honour of the Family from whence I sprang which all the world knows what it is And I should be an infamous man to dishonour them so much as to bear their Name and commit Treason My Lords I owe it to my Wife who hath been a very kind Wife to me as ever Man had She is Heiress at Law to the great Estate of that great and unfortunate Man Stafford Duke of Buckingham who was cut offin the Reign of King Henry the Eighth and all his Estate if it were not for that Attainder would have come to her I may be impertinent in telling your Lordships what it was but I do not over-say it when I reckon it would have been at this day Two hundred thousand pounds a Year for it was Seventeen thousand pounds a Year in those days Penny Rent besides other Emoluments This is an extravagant thing to say but 't is true something thereof does remain to her which I now enjoy I owe it to all my Children especially to my Eldest Son who is a young Man and I may say of far better Parts and Hopes than his Father and whom I hope will serve his Country I owe it to all my Friends and Relations for I would not have it said after-my Death my Wife was the Widow of a Traytor I owe it to all these but above all I owe it to God Almighty then when I come to be judged by Him I may give a good account of what he hath intrusted me with that I may not appear as an infamous Man who knows he hath a Body but not his own and yet should throw it and his Soul away together And if I should have committed this Execrable Treason I should have been Guilty of my own Murder First in the committing a Crime worthy of Death and then in not Confessing to save my Life I hold Murder an extraordinary Crime the worst next to Treason And I know if I should not prevent my Death by confessing all I knew I should have been guilty of Self-Murder the worst of Murders I know your Lordships will lay to Heart what an execrable thing Murder is and the Blood of Innocents and I hope there is none of the House of Commons but after this Evidence will clear me I am sure none of them would have me punished for that I am not Guilty of I do not blame these Gentlemen of the House of Commons for Prosecuting nor the first for Impeaching for they had without all doubt Reasons great enough for it upon what Evidence they had before them before they knew what the Witnesses were I know your Lordships will not in the least point vary from Justice or the Law of the Land and I desire you to lay the whole matter to your Hearts I have not the least suspicion of the Partiality of any Man in the House nay I profess if I had an Enemy and he were not here I would beg of you that he might come I have cleared my self before your Lordshships and I hope I shall not be run down by the wicked Rabble which where it will end God knows It began in the late times against my Lord of Strafford and so continued till it ended in that most Execrable Fact one of them that ever was done
therefore if you are so speak You have the Protection of the Court for the Counsel you give in matter of Law and whatever Advice you give you should maintain by Law Mr. VVallop Truly my Lords it is a Point that has as I said before received some Settlement but whether ever in this Court or no I cannot tell Therefore I did discharge my thoughts of providing any Argument till your Lordships should have determined whether you will take the Point upon the Resolutions in the Courts below to be finally settled and determined Sir William Jones So then it is agreed to be settled in the ordinary Courts Lord Stafford I desire also it may be argued whether words are an Overt Act. Sir Francis Winnington It seems the Law is with us in case of a Commoner but whether it be so for a Lord is the Question Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford How comes it to pass that your Lordship came prepared with Objections but not with Counsel ready to argue them Lord Stafford Mr. Wallop has given you an Answer I must stand by that Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned to their House in their Order and the Committee of Commons staid in their Places to attend their Resolutions In one hours time the Lords returned and my Lord High Steward being seated upon the Woolpack Silence was proclaimed Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford My Lords since they have been withdrawn have considered of one Point of that point chiefly which your Lordship did move touching the necessity of two Witnesses to every Overt Act alledged as Evidence of High Treason that is the point you have desired Counsel to speak to and that is the point your Counsel desired to know whether it was a doubtful or debateable point before they would argue it and hereupon my Lords did withdraw to consider it And my Lords have directed that all the Judges that assist them and are here in your Lordships presence and hearing should deliver their Opinions whether it be doubtful and disputable or no. Then all the Judges consulted privately together and afterwards gave their Opinion Seriatim beginning with the Lord Cbief Justice North the Lord Chief Justice Scroggs being absent Lord Chief Justice North. My Lords I do here deliver my Opinion and I am cleà r in it That if there be several Overt Acts or Facts which are Evidences of the same Treason if there be one Witness to prove one such Overt Act at one time and another Witness to prove another Overt Act at another time both the Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are two sufficient Witnesses of that Treason and will maintain an Indictment or an Impeachment of Treason I never knew any doubt made of it in any Inferiour Court of Justice and I have known it often resolved Lord Chief Baron Montague My Lords where ever Treason is to be proved to every Overt Act two Witnesses as I conceive are not required If so be there are two Witnesses to several Overt Acts conducing to a proof of the same Treason I think they are Witnesses in the Judgment of the Law such as the Statute requires Mr. Justice Windham I am of the same Opinion with my Lord Chief Justice North and my Lord Chief Baron That if there be several Overt Acts done at several times tending to the same Treason these several Acts being severally proved by several credible Witnesses though but by one Witness at each time to each Act the said several Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are sufficient Witnesses of that Treason so proved and will maintain an Indictment or as I conceive an Impeachment Mr. Justice Jones My Lords if several Witnesses speak to the same kind of Treason although they speak to several Overt Acts and give Evidence of several times the one of them speaking to one time and the other to another time yet keeping still to the same kind of Treason they are such two Witnesses as are required by the Statute of Edward the 6 th and this I do take to be the constant Opinion of the Courts below Mr. Justice Dolben My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I know it hath been many times so resolved I have been present when Sentence hath passed upon Persons by whom the same Case hath been urged and it hath been so resolved And it hath been moved in Westminster-Hall and that was the constant Opinion of the Judges there particularly in the Case of Sir Henry Vane It was upon solemn Debate resolved and divers times it hath been held that the same Treason may be proved by two Witnesses to several Overt Acts though one speak of Words or Actions that were spoken or done at one time and in one place and another speak of Words or Actions at another time and in another place those are two good Witnesses in Treason within the intent of the Law and if the Law were otherwise 't were scarce possible to convict any man of Treason and therefore I take it to be very clear Mr. Justice Raymond I am of the same Opinion That where several Cirstances are brought to prove the same Treason one Witness to each of the several Circumstances is sufficient and this I conceive hath been always the Opinion of the Judges Mr. Baron Atkins My Lords I am of the same Opinion That there must be two Witnesses in the Case of Treason is a matter without Question but there are several Overt Acts that may contribute to the effecting of that Treason If a man designs to kill the King and buyes Powder at one place at one time and a Pistol at another place at another time and promises a Reward to one to assist him to do the thing at a third place and a third time these are several Overt Acts but if the Law requires that each be proved by two Witnesses I do not well see how any man can be Convicted of Treason In the Case of Sir Henry Vane and others this very Question was started but was not thought worthy of Debate if it should be otherwise it would touch the Judgments which have been given upon this kind of Proof and what would the Consequence of that be but that those persons who were Executed upon those Judgments have suffered illegally And therefore I am of Opinion that it is not requisite there should be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. Mr. Baron Gregory My Lords I am of the same Opinion it is Treason to Conspire the Death of the King Now each of the Witnesses is a Witness to prove that Treason the one says he offered him such a Reward in such a place that is one Witness to prove that he Conspired the Death of the King and another says that he offered him such a Reward in another place that is another Witness that he Conspired the
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though