Selected quad for the lemma: justice_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
justice_n	king_n	law_n	lord_n	10,591	5	4.0028	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A31642	Treason's master-piece, or, A conference held at Whitehall between Oliver, the late usurper, and a committee of the then pretended Parliament who desired him to take upon him the title of King of England ... : wherein many of the leading-men of those times did, by unanswerable arguments, assert and prove monarchy to be the only legal ancient, and necessary form of government in these kingdoms / collected by a faithful hand.; Monarchy asserted to be the best, most ancient and legall form of government	Fiennes, Nathaniel, 1607 or 8-1669.; Whitlocke, Bulstrode, 1605-1675 or 6.	1680 (1680)	Wing C19; ESTC R14983	78,281	128

otherwise I am concluded before I speak and therefore it will behoove me to say what I have why they are not necessary conclusions not that they are nor that it is I should say so interwoven in the Laws but that the Laws may not possibly be executed to equal to justice and equal satisfaction of the people and equally to answer all objections as well without it as with it and then when I have done that I shall onely take the liberty to say a word or two for my own grounds and when I have said what I can say as to that I hope you will think a great deal more then I say Truly though Kingship be not a Title but a name of Office that runs through the Law yet it is not so ratione nominis but from what is signified it is a name of Office plainly implying a Supream Authority is it more or can it be stretcht to more I say it is a name of Office plainly implying the Supream Authority and if it be so why then I would suppose I am not peremptory in any thing that is matter of deduction or inference of my own Why then I should suppose that whatsoever name hath been or shall be the name in which the Supream Authority shall act why I say if it had been those four or five Letters or whatsoever or whatsoever else it had been that signification goes to the thing certainly it does and not to the name why then there can be no more said but this why this hath been fixt so it may have been unfixt and certainly in the right of the Authority I mean as a legislative power in the right of the legislative power I think the Authority that could Christen it with such a name could have called it by another name and therefore it was but derived from that And certainly they had the disposal of it and might have had it they might have detracted or changed and I hope it will be no offence to you to say as the case now stands so may you and if it be so that you may why then I say there is nothing of necessity in your Argument but consideration of expedience of it I had rather if I were to chuse if it were the natural question which I hope is altogether out of the question But I had rather have any name from this Parliament than any name without it so much do I value the Authority of the Parliament and I believe all men are of my mind in that I believe the Nation is very much of my mind though that be an uncertain way of arguing what mind they are of I think we may say it without offence for I would give none though the Parliament be the truest way to know what the mind of the Nation is yet if the Parliament will be pleased to give me a liberty to reason for my self and that that be made one Argument I hope I may urge against that else I can freely give a reason of my own mind but I say undoubtingly let us think what we will what the Parliament settles in that which will run through the Law and will lead the thread of Government through the Land as well as what hath been considering that what hath been upon the same account save that there hath been some long continuance of the thing it is but upon the same account it had its original somewhere and it was in consent of the whole there was the original of it and consent of the whole will I say be the needle that will lead the thread through all and I think no man will pretend right against it or wrong and if so then under favour to me I think all those arguments from the Law are as I said before not necessary but are to be understood upon the account of conveniency it is in your power to dispose and settle and before we can have confidence that what you do settle will be as authentick as those things that were before especially as to the individual thing the name or Title upon Parliamentary account upon Parliamentary why then I say there will be way made with leave for me to offer a reason or two to all that hath else been said otherwise I say my mouth is stopt there are very many inforcements to carry on this thing I suppose it will stand upon a way of expedience and fitness truly I should have urged one consideration more that I had forgotten and that is not onely to urge the things for reason but for experience perhaps it is a short one but it is a true one under favour and is known to you all in the fact of it under favour although there hath been no Parliamentary declarations that the Suprcam Authority going in another name and under another Title than King why it hath been complyed with twice without it That is under the Custodes Libertatis Angliae it hath since I exercised the place and truly I may say that almost universal obedience hath been given to all the ranks and sorts of men to both and to begin with the highest degree of Magistracy at the first alteration and when that was the name and though it was the name of an invisible thing yet the very name though a new name was obeyed did pass for currant and was received and did carry on the justice of the Nation I remember very well that my Lords the Judges were somewhat startled and yet upon consideration if I mistake not I believe so there being of them without reflection as able and as learned as have sat there though they did I confess at first demur a little yet they did receive satisfaction and did act as I said before I profess it for my own part I think I may say it since the beginning of that change I would be loath to speak any thing vainly but since the beginning of that change unto this day I do not think in so many years those that were called and worthily so accounted Halcyon days of peace in 20 Eliz. and King James and King Charles time I do not think but that the Laws did proceed with as much freedom and justice with less private sollicitation either from that that was called then so or since I came to the Government I do not think under favour that the Laws have had a more free exercise more uninterrupted by any hand of power the Judge less solicited by Letters or private interpositions either of my own or other mens in double so many years in all those times of peace and if more of my Lords the Judges were here than now are they could tell what to say to what had been done since and therefore I say under favour these two experiences do manifestly shew that it is not a Title though so interwoven with the Laws that makes the Law to have its free passage and do its office without interruption as we think but that if a

suffrage you have ever trusted us with all your Votes and we will justifie it but besides we have not done it neither we have but setled it upon the old Foundations then the Kingship however some may pretend a King's Prerogative is so large that we know it not it is not bounded but the Parliament are not of that opinion The Kings Prerogative is known by Law he did expatiate it beyond the duty that 's the evil of the man but in Westminster-Hall the Kings Prerogative was under the Courts of Justice and is bounded as well as any Acre of Land or any thing a man hath as much as any controversie between party and party And therefore the Office being lawful in its nature known to the Nation certain in it self and confined and regulated by the Law and the other Office being not so that was a great ground of the reason why the Parliament did so much insist upon this Office and Title not as circumstantial but as essential yea it is the head from whence all the Nerves and Sinews of the Government do proceed as was well said by the Master of the Rolls If we put a new head it s a question whether those Nerves and Sinews will grow and be nourished and strengthned with that head I had something in my thoughts which I had forgot something of an objection Why are you so pertinacious or insist so much upon this Title you may not apply all the Powers and Authorities unto the Office of Protector and then you will give satisfaction I must needs say he that makes this objection makes it but meerely but a Name If any shall say I am content the Protector shall have the Office but not the Name I think this man is very strait laced then he puts it meerly upon the word and truly if there be no more in it if there be nothing but that word you have in the ballance with it the desires of the Parliament I beseech you do not break with your Parliament for a word Another objection is we have been under the Protector and the Judges have taken their Office under that Government and the Judges have taken their measure by the Authority of the King and have taken it to be the same with that of King and so go on I confess that the Judges have gone very far that way and I may not speak my own opinion of this case in this place but yet it is very well known that there hath been variety of opinions and judgments in this case even from those that have been Judges of the Nation and I do not take the people upon a very good establishment when there shall be no doubtings in those that should be best knowing I would never make a doubt that tends to the shaking of foundations if I should avoid it The taking of this Office will avoid a doubt the continuing of the other Office may be more uncertain I would never make a doubt where it may be dear perhaps the taking of the other would reduce men to satisfaction there is but a perhaps in the one and a certainty in the other 11 Of April Sir Charles Woolesley NOt onely we that are here but many honest hearts in England rejoyce to see this day wherein your Highness and the Parliament are with so much nearness and affection debating the settlement of the Nation One reason why your Highness should take this title offered you by the Parliament is because as you stand in relation to the old Government you are obliged to the Law yet have not the advantage of the Law which the chief Magistrate ought to have The Law knows not a Protector and requires no obedience from the people to him The Parliament desires to settle one so that the people may know your duty to them and they their duty to you The Parliament find the minds of the people of these Nations much set upon this Office and Title God hath by his providence put a general desire of it in the Nation and they think in things not unlawful they ought to hearken and to be much inclined by the desires of them that sent them and in such things as are for their good as this is to be much provoked thereby to the doing of them Truly Sir it hath been much in the thoughts of the Parliament that the reason why things of late have been so unsetled throughout in the Nations hath been because that to the body of this people there hath not been a legal head The well-being of the head is not more necessary to the wholsome constitution of the body natural than a right head is necessary to the body politick I may humbly tell your Highness this Nation hath ever been a lover of Monarchy and of Monarchy under the Title of a King the Name and Office hath for above a thousand years been in this Nation though they have often changed their Princes yet never the Name nor Office 'T is the great Common Law that is the Custome of the Nation approved good by many ages to have the Office and Name of a King no new Law that makes any other can have that validity which the Custom of so many ages hath Sir the Parliament doth judge the safety of your person much concerned to take this Title and 't is not your self they look to though their hearts are full of honour I may say it to your Highness as can be but to you as chief Magistrate representing the people and being head of the Law and all Magistracy the people hath a share and concernment in you We see this hath been the great encouragements of these attempts against your person that the Law did not take notice of you as chief Magistrate and that Juries were generally backward to find any guilty for Treason for attempting against you the Parliament cannot think it fit to have their chief Magistrate in such a condition Your Highness hath been pleased to call your self as when you speak to the Parliament a servant you are so indeed to the people and 't is your greatest honour so to be I hope then Sir you will give the people leave to name their own servant that is a due you cannot you will not certainly deny them their Representatives desire you will serve the People under this Title and were there no other reason therefore it is the best I beseech your Highness consider if you should refuse this Title the Parliament presents you with you do not only deny your self the honour they put upon you but you deny the Nation you deny the people their honour which by right they ought to have 'T is the honour and their just birth-right to have a Supream Magistrate with the Title of a King I know Sir though you can deny your self yet you will not deny the Nation their due when their Representative challenge it from you The Parliament have highly engaged all the good people of this

particulars no question I might easily offer something particular for debate if I thought that that would answer the end for truely I know my end and yours is the same that is to bring things to an issue one way or other that we may know where we are that we may attain that general end that is Settlement the end is in us both and I durst contend with any one person in the world that it is not more in his heart than in mine I could go to some particulars to ask a Question or ask a Reason of the Alteration which would well enough let you into the business that it might yet I say it doth not answer me I confess I did not so strictly examine that Order of reference or whether I read it or no I cannot tell you If you will have it that way I shall as well as I can make such an Objection as may occasion some answer to it though perhaps I shall object weak enough I shall very freely submit to you Lord chief-Chief-Justice THe Parliament hath commanded us for that end to give your Highness satisfaction Lord Commissioner Fines MAy it please your Highness Looking upon the Order I finde that we are impowred to offer any Reasons that we think fit either for the satisfaction of your Highness or maintenance of what the Parliament hath given you their advice in and I think we are rather to offer to your Highness the Reasons of the Parliament if your Highness Dissatisfaction be to the Alteration of Government in general or in particular Lord Protector I Am very ready to say I have no Dissatisfaction that it hath pleased the Parliament to finde out a way though it be of alteration to bring these Nations into a good Settlement and perhaps you may have judged the Settlement we were in was not so much for the great End of Government the Liberty and Good of the Nations and the preservation of all those honest Interests that have been engaged in this Cause I say I have no exception to the general that the Parliament hath thought fit to take consideration of a new Settlement or Government but you having done it as you have and made me so far interested in as to make such an Overture to me I shall be very glad if you so please to let me know it that besides the pleasure of the Parliament may be somewhat of the Reason of the Parliament for interesting me in this thing and for making the alteration such as it is Truly I think I shall as to the other particulars swallow this I shall be very ready to assign particular Objections to clear that to you that may be either better to clear or to help me at least to a clearer understanding of the things for better good for that I know is in your hearts as well as mine Though I cannot presume that I have any thing to offer to you that may convince you But if you will take in good part I shall offer somewhat to every particular If you please as to the first of the thing I am clear as to the ground of the thing being so put to me as it hath been put I think that some of the grounds upon which it is done will very well lead into such Objections or Doubts as I may offer and will be a very great help to me in it and if you will have me offer this or that or the other doubt that may arise methodically I shall do it Lord Whitlock I Am very much assured that all this company is come with the same Affection and faithful Respect to the Publick Settlement as your Highness hath pleased to express For my part I do with a great deal of Clearness and Faithfulness and in my particular apprehension I conceive that the Method that your Highness mentioned to proceed in we may answer and if any Gentleman be of another opinion he will be pleased to correct me in it The Parliament taking consideration of the present Government and the Instrument that doth establish it seemeth to my apprehension to be of opinion that it was very fit there should be some course taken for a Settlement in the Government of the Nation by the Supream Legislative Power your Highness and the Parliament concurring together in it they found the Instrument of Government in the Original and Foundation of it to require this Settlement by the Supream Legislative Power in regard of the Original of the other which they did as I apprehended by some Gentlemens Debates upon it might be an occasion of some doubts and of less stability if it were left to continue upon the same foundation it is That it will not be so clear a Settlement and Foundation for the Preservation of the Rights and Liberties of the Nation as if we came to a Settlement by the Supreme Legislative Power upon that ground it was taken into Consideration and a Settlement brought to effect upon very solemn full and candid Debates among themselves in Parliament Their Intentions I suppose were only these To provide for the Safety and Peace of the Nations hereafter to provide for the Rights and Liberties both Spiritual and Civil of the People of these Nations and in order to make the best provision they could for these great Concernments of the People the Petition and Advice which they have humbly presented to your Highness was brought to a determination by them For that particular which your Highness did formerly intimate when the Parliament did attend upon you the Committee of the Parliament and which you are now pleased to intimate concerning the Title I do humbly apprehend the grounds of that to be these The foundation of that Title of Protector being not known by the Law being a new Title it was thought that the Title which is known by the Law of England for many Ages many hundred of years together received and the Law fitted to it and that to the Law that it might be of more certainty and clear Establishment and more conformable to the Laws of the Nation that that Title should be that of King rather than that other of Protector There is very much as to the essence of the business as some Gentlemen did apprehend That the Title should be a known Title that hath been in all these Times and Ages received and every particular person hath occasion of knowing of it and of his Rights applied to it And likewise of the general Rights of the People and their Liberties have an application to that Name which application cannot be so clear and so certain to a new Title the Title of Protector Some Gentlemen I heard reason it that the Title of Protector is only upon the Original and Foundation as it now stands but the Title of King besides the Constitutions by which it shall be made will likewise have a Foundation upon the old and known Laws of the Nation So that there will be both the present

Parliament so that I may conclude they were not engaged for that Government by King It hath been indeed the honour of the Souldiery that in all these changes they have still followed providence and have acquiesced acting and living in practical conformity but I wish they would be satisfied for their love sake to us and their labours for us High should his reward be in Heaven and happy hsi remembrance on earth that would be the means of such an accord but to satisfie all men so divided as we are would be no less that a wonder I shall speak in a parable in the 37. Chap. of Ezekiel vers 16. the Lord said to the Prophet Take two sticks write upon one stick for Judah and the children of Israel companions and take the other stick and write upon it for Joseph the stick of Ephraim for all the House of Israel his Companions and join these two sticks in one stick and they shall become one in thy hand these are the two Nations of Israel and Judah two distant and differing names but they shall come under one King and David shall be their King thus they were united 5. Objection Justice hath been as well administred and as free from solicitations under these changes as before Answer you were pleased to say to undertook that charge to preserve from confusion which indeed is the worst of evil and the same reason might prevail with judges and other Magistrates to execute Justice and give to men their rights which is so desirable to all men and of absolute necessity Justice may be compared to the water in the spring if kept from his natural channel will break his way through the bowels of the Earth nature sometimes may suffer violence there is a peace in a cessation to war and their is a peace in the regard of the distraction may be termed but an intermitting peace for your Highness is pleased to acknowledge that the people call for a subsistery and cry aloud for settlement from which under favour I may infer that as yet there is no settlement so well settled as to be accounted perfect and good Your Highness is pleased to declare you had rather take a Title from this Parliament than any title from any other place or without it The Parliament of England is the Womb of the Commonwealth and in the Womb there hath been a conception and shape and proportion and form and life and groweth as far as the navel could nourish there hath been also a delivery and a name given there hath been conceptu conceptus partus opus and it hath been a great work to bring us to this delivery it is therefore the humble advice of the Parliament that your Highness would be pleased to make it speak the English tongue April the 16. Lord Com. Fines YOur Highness the other day laid down as a ground of your ensuing discourse this position that there was no necessity of the Name and Title of King upon which foundation your Highness seemed to build the arguments and reasons of your Highness dissatisfaction as to that Name and Title and that in such sort as the matter is now circumstantiated and stated by your Highness own self that there is a necessity either in the affirmative or negative if it be not necessary that the name be assumed it is of necessity to be declined and if no necessity to decline it then there is a necessity to assume it for although the nature of the thing be it self such as possibly may admit a latitude of argument upon the point of expediency and conveniency and that we are not shut up under an absolute necessity either the one way or the other yet the Parliament having given their judgement upon it and their advice to your Highness in it your Highness seemeth to admit that there lye the kind of necessity upon you to assume it if there be not a necessity to wave it for you will not without necessity decline the advice of the Parliament having said that you should rather chuse any name which they should six than any name whatsoever without Then it holdeth out thus much that you will not put expediency and conveniency but onely necessity in ballance with their judgement who are the proper Judges of things in that nature and what is most expedient and convenient therein for the three Nations which they represent and thought a name might otherwise be inconvenient yet accompanied with judgement of the Parliament it would become more acceptable to your Highnesse than any other name without as your Highness hath said and admitted and besides the grounds of dissatisfaction held forth by your Highnesse relating to conscience they must be such as are grounded upon a necessity in the negative through the reasons alledged by the Committee should not of themselves conclude but only in expedience in the Affirmative yet they are so far from concluding a necessity in the Negative that they do it by accident in the Affirmative because there is not onely no necessitie of the Negative but an expediency in the Affirmative which notwithstanding is more than lay upon the Committee to make out it being sufficient as this case is to shew that there is not a necessity to decline it is to conclude a kind of necessitie to take it and whether or no if the position laid down by your Highnesse were admitted the reasons give by your Highnesse do upon supposition conclude a necessitie of declining this Name is the question in the second place when first position hath been considered how far it must or need not to be admitted there is a double necessity in a natural and a moral necessitie a paternal necessitie falleth not under consideration rules if it be one respect because their is a kind of impossibilitie at once to enumerate all particular cases and circumstances wherein the chief Magistrate shall or shall not have power or right which many hundred of years hath done and fitted the Laws in all particulars to the Name and Title of King but to the Name of Protector or any new Name either all cases and circumstances must by particular enumeration be applied which would be the work of an age as it hath been of many ages in that Name of a King or it must be left at least in what is not enumerated boundlesse and Lawlesse which that it should not be there is a moral that is to say a politick necessitie or else to suit a particular enumeration there must be a general clause that in all things not particularly specified they shall be defined by the Laws and Rights belonging to the Name King and then the question will be meerly nominal and consequently not be put in ballance with the judgment of the Parliament for that a necessity in the Negative cannot arise out a meer nominal difference of the thing and the definition thereof being Identically the very same and there being no difference but only