Selected quad for the lemma: justice_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
justice_n	great_a	king_n	lord_n	8,214	5	3.8032	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63190	The tryal of Roger Earl of Castlemaine for high treason in conspiring the death of the King, the subversion of the government, and introducing of popery and arbitrary power : before the Lord Chief Justice Scroggs &c. at the King's Bench Bar at Westminster the 23th of June 1680 where he was acquitted.	Castlemaine, Roger Palmer, Earl of, 1634-1705.; England and Wales. Court of King's Bench.	1681 (1681)	Wing T2214; ESTC R27542	45,091	76

it does not set a Man as if he had neuer Offended It cannot in reason be said a Man guilty of Perjury is as Innocent as if he had never been Perjured Att. General I say if a Man be Pardoned he is as if he were not Guilty L. C. J. If I were in my Lord Castlemain's Case I would submit it but when he hath given his Testimony my Lord shall have liberty to give in the Records against him of what Crimes he hath committed J. Jones I do confess indeed that my Lord Hales in his little Book of the Pleas of the Crown saith That a Man that hath had the benefit of his Clergy is restored to his Credit J. Raymond If that case be allowed it is a plain case for there is no Man can wage Battle but he that is Liber legalis homo Recorder A Man broke Prison and therefore he could not wage Battle he replies the King hath Pardoned me that Felony and thereupon he is admitted to wage Battle J. Jones Where there is no Judgment given in the Case and the King doth Pardon a Man that doth make a very great difference Recorder In the Case of Witherington my Lord Chief Justice did look upon the Records and afterwards said he was a good Witness and was Admitted Prisoner If you have Law by you I must consent L. C. J. Then you must consent Recorder There are several Persons who have had Pardons after Robberies and we are forced to make use of some of these Fellows L. C. J. Before Conviction Recorder No after Conviction my Lord I have known a Prisoner at the Bar when my Lords the Judges have been there to be a Witness And if the Court had made any doubt it would have been a Question before this time of day Att. General My Lord if you please Mr. Dangerfield may be Sworn If your Lordship pleases L. C. J. My Lord shall have the benefit of excepting against his credibility Then Mr. Justice Raymond went down to the Court of Common Pleas to know their Opinion J. Jones Have you any other Witness in the mean time Att. General No my Lord he is a principal Witness Sir F. W. Besides the common Practice here is a Book that says he shall wage Battle J. Jones That is when there is a Pardon before Conviction Sol. General But here my Lord he says the Reatum is taken away and then it takes away his disabilities too The difference can be nothing here before Conviction and after because before Conviction there is a disability before Conviction he is disabled from waging Battle So that that makes no difference before Conviction and other Cases after Conviction and the disability is taken away by the Pardon and he is restored to be a Freeman L. C. J. There is a disability upon Presumption tho not upon Conviction Sol. General There is the same legal impediment in the one as in the other but his Credit is left to the Breast of the Jury Recorder When a Pardon comes it takes away not only Poenam but Reatum and the Reason my Lord Hobart gives L. C. J. Nay give your Reason Recorder For Felony is Contra Coronam Dignitatem is a Fault against the King and when the King Pardons it it ceases and in another place it is said It Pardons all disabilities incident to him J. Jones That is before Conviction still L. C. J. Don't my Lord Cook tell you expresly That the taking a Pardon doth not prove any Offence You take a Pardon it ought not to be concluded that you are Guilty but the proper conclusion of a Wise Man is that you would be safe It can't be thought that every Man that hath a Pardon in England is guilty of all those Offences that are there Pardoned J. Jones There is a difference between a General Pardon and a particular Pardon when a Man doth accept of a special Pardon it must be intended that he hath some Consciousness of Guilt or else he would not take it but he that is Included in a general Pardon may be clear because all Men are Included in it unless some Persons particularly excepted and the difference is taken in that very point from accepting a General and a Special Pardon L. C. J. That the Acceptance of a General Pardon doth not barely of it self intend Men to be Guilty of the Crimes is plain and the reason is most apparent for besides that Men be safe so there be times that give a Reason why Men should have a Pardon because no man knows when he is safe Perjury so abounds that no man can say he is safe and that is a Reason why Men should be very willing to accept of Pardons Clerk of the Crown Here 's my Lord Hales's Book about the Pleas of the Crown Recorder He says when the King hath discharged and pardoned him he hath cleared the Person of the Crime and Infamy J. Jones It is so no doubt Sir F. W. May we pass upon these Authorities J. Jones Sir Francis We are not willing to go about it till it be concluded for that purpose we have desired my Brother Raymond to know the Judges Opinions of the Common Pleas. Recorder He doth expresly say it hath restored him to his Credit and in Witherington's Case he did call for the very Records Att. General If it restore him to his Credit I hope it shall not blemish him so much when he is Sworn that he shall not be believed L. C. J. We won't have any prepossession in that Case his Crimes shall be all taken notice of Is it fit to have Men Guilty of all sorts of Villanies and not to observe it J. Jones In that very Case my Lord Hobart says A Man may say of a Pardoned Man he was a Felon though he cannot say now he is a Felon and now what can be objected to this Case Recorder Things may be objected against a Person and his Credit left to the Jury but the Question now is Whether he shall be a Witness or no L. C. J. We have Men grown so Insolent they behave themselves with that vile Insolence that now they take upon them to speak against whole Societies of Men as if so be there were any thing in them that should render them better then their former Lives or Natures Humility becomes penitents and no wicked Man is supposed to be penitent that hath not that but these carry it with that Insolency as if they were not concern'd themselves when God knows the best of them discover what they do by being but parties themselves Mr. Justice Raymond return'd from the Court of Common Pleas. L. C. J. I will tell you what my Brethrens Opinions are he hath put it to them on both Accounts That he was convicted of Felony and Burnt in the Hand for it that he was outlawed for Felony and hath a General Pardon They say they are of Opinion That a General Pardon would not restore him to

I did not see you there I only went to wait upon a Gentleman that was a Priest afterwards that went to take orders Prisoner Did you not see me at Liege D. Oates No my Lord. Prisoner You were at Liege did you stay there D. Oates I lay there one Night Att. General Have you any thing to ask my Lord Prisoner Presently my Lord. J. Jones It is very reasonable my Lord should question you You own him to be the Lord Castlemain When was it you did first discover this business concern●●g my Lord Castlemain D. Oates My Lord I did discover my Lord Castlemain to be in the Plot the Last Sessions of the Long ●arliament and I accused my Lord Castlemain this ●rinity Term was Twelve Months and my Lord Castlemain was committed for when Mr. Dangerfield came in and accused my Lord Castlemain I brought a Charge a second time against my Lord Castlemain J. Jones Did you discover all this then D. Oates I did charge him for having an hand in the Design in general J. Jones To the Parliament D. Oates Yes to the Parliament Prisoner You say when I assented to the Kings Death in Fenwick's Chamber that I said I should now find a time to be reveng'd D. Oates Pray my Lord don't put me to mention such reflecting Evidence Prisoner When you were before the King you did in pursuance of this speak of a Divorce D. Oates My Lord I will give Evidence as to that if that my Lord comes to be Indicted for his Priesthood L. C. J. My Lord may ask what Questions he shall think fit Att. General My Lord says he has said it and what he said in another place he is not to treat now of Prisoner Suppose I can prove him an Ill Man in any place is not that fit to be spoken of here Since he hath brought the King upon the Stage and since he hath accused me before the King and your Lordships of a Devorce I ask him whether he saw it D. Oates I will tell your Lordship what I said as to the Divorce I heard it discours'd of generally among the Fathers beyond Sea and this was some other part of the Discourse at Wild-house and I heard my Lord Castlemain say that he had been at great charg to carry on that business of the Divorce Prisoner At Wild-house D. Oates At Wild-house Now my Lord I took no notice of it because it was not my business But my Lord after that there was a Priests Chamber that was searched and there was the whole Case stated now what is become of the State of that Case my Lord I cannot tell L. C. J. By whom was that Case stated D. Oates There was a Letter found whereby my Lord Castlemain should have the matter directed in order to the carrying on the Divorce that was to be between him and his Wise Barbara Prisoner Did not you tell the King that you saw the Divorce in Strange's hand D. Oates My Lord I will tell you this I gave an Account to the King that I saw in Strange's hand an Acconnt of a Divorce that was between my Lord Castlemain and Barbara Dutcheis of Cleaveland Recorder My Lord if he ask too many Questions that don't relate to this matter it is impossible to give an Account of every particular Prisoner My Lords I humbly submit this Case Recorder Ask him what you said to such a man upon the Ninth of August was Twelve Month must he give an Account L. C. J. He must say he does not know Recorder Indeed it is reasonable that my Lord Castlemain should ask him some questions and that Mr. Oates should give him an Account Att. General My Lord will you give me leave to speak If he may ask questions about such forreign matters as this no man can justify himself L. C. J. This is not so mighty remote but use may be made of it Att. General If he should ask whether he were such a day at such an house and tell him yes and mistake the day any man may be catch'd thus Prisoner How can a man be catch'd in the Truth Att. General My Lord Castlemain may if he can catch him in any thing he gives in Evidence here Prisoner My Lord if your Lordship over-rule me I will say no more Mr. Atturney says I come to catch him I confess I do Att. General You should not ask him Forreign Questions L. C. J. He asks a plain Question why do you labour so much that he should not ask Whether he had seen the Divorce My Lord Castlemain I have askt the question for you Whether or no he said he had seen the Divorce and he does not remember whether he said so or no. Att. General My Lord I think with your Lordships leave that he is not bound to answer Questions that are not to the Evidence L. C. J. If so be he would come to make Application it may be well enough Att. General I say it for the Method of the Evidence my Lord that I would not have these Excursions Prisoner I desire your Lordship that I may say out what I have to say I say this that no man in the World that speaks truth can be catch'd neither will Mr. Atturney suffer me to catch him Att. General I say you have liberty to catch him in any thing that doth belong to the Evidence Prisoner I come to shew you the fitness of it to this Affair He comes and tells you among other Consults of Wild-house and my meeting him in Lincolns-Inn-Fields the recommendations of Mr. Langworth and going to Fenwicks Chamber where we talk'd of altering the Government and my assenting to kill the King and since you have brought the King upon the Stage I will refresh your Memory a little since you talk of revenging my self look you if you did not mention a Divorce to the King and also to my Lord Chief Justice Att. General My Lord you are under a mistake Prisoner Pray give me leave Mr. Atturney Att. General You make such Excursions into Forreign Matters Prisoner Mr. Oates you did say you saw a Divorce I ask you whether you saw a Divorce and where or whether you said so L. C. J. He says he does not remember he said so D. Oates I do not remember whether I said so or no my Lord I have it down but indeed I did not set my thoughts a-work Att. General He hath given you an Answer that may satisfie you J. ●aymond He hath Papers wherein he hath entred Memorandums to refresh his Memory but these Papers he hath not by him L. C. J. Then he may say he hath not Att. General That he hath already my Lord. L. C. J. Have you any more to say Prisoner I have my Lord if you will give me leave to write down two words Prisoner Mr. Oates You told my Lords the Judges that I did say I was at great expence about a Divorce Dr. Oates Yes Prisoner That is very well Mr. Oates Att.

matter if you had any body to prove that this Gentleman came alone but that is still but one mans testimony Prisoner But here is Confirmation to his Evidence that he could not invent it Att. Gen. You had Sixteen once but the contrary was proved and believed and so it may be again Prisoner Call Mr. Gregson and Rigby Mr. Gregson were not you Landlord to Mr. Oates before the Plot was discovered How long before the Plot did he lie at your House L. C. J. What time Gregson A Week before Easter 77. J. Raymond When did he go away from you Sir Gregson The Sunday after Easter day J. Raymond When did you see him again Gregson He came to me about All Saints J. Raymond The same year Gregson Yes Dr. Oates Who paid for my Quarters Pray ask him that my Lord. Gregson He paid for it himself Dr. Oates Did not Mr. Fenwick pay for it Gregson He did after you came from St. Omers Dr. Oates My Lord when I came last from St. Omers I went directly to his House Prisoner Was not he in a poor condition Gregson He was then indifferently poor Prisoner My Lord This is only to prove his condition Dr. Oates My Lord I had only what the Jesuits allow'd me L. C. J. You had nothing but what they allow'd you Dr. Oates Nothing else my Lord. J. Jones They allow'd you a very scanty living Prisoner Call Mr. Littcott Mr. Littcott Do you know any thing about a Divorce L. C. J. What should he know Prisoner Pray my Lord don't discourage me J. Raymond But you must not ask things that are not to the purpose Littcott My Lord It was morally impossible there should be a Divorce L. C. J. Was there any endeavour by my Lord concerning it Littcott There was no such Design L. C. J. How was that But pray mind you will be morally not believed else Do you know my Lord used any endeavours in order to obtain a Divorce Recorder That is all that he says He never knew any thing Prisoner I only say this my Lord Mr. Oates comes here and says That he heard me say That I did spend a great deal of money Now if I satisfie the Court that I never spent a Farthing towards a Divorce L. C. J. If he had said Your Lordship laid out Sums of money then it had been an Answer to that if you could prove you had not Prisoner You know I stand here accused for a great Crime pray give me leave J. Raymond If it were a matter of moment we would Prisoner Pray my Lord hear me here is a Man says I spent a great deal of money about a Divorce I come to tell your Lordship That this very man before your Lordships and also before the King and if your Lordships have forgot it I will shew you Witnesses that he spake it before the King and before the House of Commons that I did actually sue out a Divorce Now I will shew my Lord that I neither could nor did go about it L. C. J. We are not to take notice of that now If he did say a false thing before the House of Commons we cannot take notice of it now For we cannot go to try whether he said so and whether that be true or false Prisoner I humbly begg my Lord If this man that is upon his Oath hath sworn before the King that he did actually see the Divorce and I prove that it was impossithat he should see the Divorce because it was impossible to get a Divorce L. C. J. What then J. Raymond You must not be permitted to prove that it is not pertinent to the Question Prisoner My Lords with humble submission to you he hath told me this before your Lordships that I spent a great deal of money about a Divorce L. C. J. My Lord You will be satisfied when we have acquainted you what the ordinary Proceedings of a Court of Justice are in this Nature what is and what is not to be admitted If you should come to prove Mr. Oates had falsly sworn a thing in another Court and five or six Witnesses shall come and say it is not true we are not to hearken to it The reason is this first you must have him perjured and we are not now to try Whether that thing sworn in another place be true or false Because that is the way to accuse whom you please and that may make a man a Liar that cann't imagine this will be put to him and so no mans testimony that comes to be a Witness shall leave himself safe And this is another Case If he swore in another place what is contradictory to what he says now then it is proper If you could prove that he had sworn in another place that he never saw you it is very proper but now to us he says That he doth not remember whether ever he had seen a Divorce or that you had sued out a Divorce All that he remembers is That you said you had expended a great deal of money about a Divorce and that is all he testifies here Prisoner My Lord my Evidence against Mr. Oates is this That he waves what he said before when I came to ask him and says I don't remember Now my Lord if he lies in one thing he may in another J. Raymond No man can remember all the things that ever he did in his life Prisoner I have Witnesses to appeal to to witness every thing and I represent it here to you that I would with all my heart have Indicted him of Perjury but for Mr. Atturney General for I Imploy'd Two to Attend the Clerk of the Peace for Copies of the Indictments against Mr. Langborn and Mr. Ireland they did come to the Clerk of the Peace saith the Clerk of the Peace I can't do it without Mr. Atturney's Authority My Lord saith he I would give them you with all my heart but I must have leave from the Table Att. General No my Lord I told you I would not give it you without you had an Order from the King and the Council did not think fit to give it you Prisoner I think this is a little pertinent J. Jones How doth any thing that your Lordship excepts against in this Gentleman's Testimony contradict it self All that you accuse him of is That Mr Oates had said he heard you say you had spent a great deal of Money about a Divorce Prisoner I only shew if you are pleased to hear it that he reported to the King that he actually saw the Divorce J. Jones That agrees well enough with what he says now Prisoner He said so in your Lordships hearing L. C. J. I don't remember it If I did I would speak of it I don't remember it upon my word J. Raymond I protest I don't remember a word J. Jones In the Court did he say it J. Raymond Here we are all three that were present I protest I don't remember it but