turne them to ioy gladnes though not properly to be glad of them Nay we ought most instantly to pray against them No affliction at all is good in it owne nature and the greatest of all is good to Gods children by his grace So that touching this vse of them therein wee are to reioyce even when we are most bruized and pearced in our soules with the terrours of God Lastlie 〈◊〉 134. l you frame an obiection against your selfe which you neither doe nor can answer Christs soule might feele the tormentes of Hell for the time without any distrust or doubting of his salvation or our redemption You pretend thïs answer The essentiall tormentes of Hell are the absolute losse of Gods kingdom everlastingly and that m Eternall continuance is of the nature and substance of Hell But we shew you â— 53 although the damned are in Hell torments everlastingly and of necessitie so must bee yet eternall continuance in them and to feele them but for a time are indeed but Circumstances not of the essence or nature of Hell tormentes Gods proper and extreame wrath only and his sharpest vengeance for sinne is the essence or nature of Hell paines Which against the Damned indeed is eternall and vnsatisfyable but lighting on Christ it was not eternall because it was satisfyable Wherefore it is plaine that you have answered in effect nothing to your owne obiectioÌ„ Thus far we have gone shewing that we a Pag. 2 neither extende the cause of Christes Agonie to far in affirming it to have com of most bitter extreame Paines which he suffred properly for our sinns neither that we coÌ„tinue it to long in affirming that he felt the same most extreamely on the Crosse Contrariwise that you curtaile it to short when you say it was no more but b Pag. 1 290. Devotion to God and Compassion to men also that Christes Agonie touched him c Pa. 11â— not at all on the Crosse So that d Before 90.91.116 our Maine argument which you would haue frustrated standeth firme and good still that seeing his Agonies Paines and Feares were such so great as the Scripture by the effects signes sheweth that they were both before his death and at his death therefore they were more then meere bodily paines and more then meere bodily death much lesse were his Holy and Religious affections the proper and speciall Cause thereof But of necessity they were the Paines proceeding from the infinit and sharpe Iustice of God which Christ truly suffered in his Spirit and Soule and Body After this a Pag 3â— Touchiâ—â— Death oâ—â—â— Soule you set vehemently against my last argument That Christ suffered in some sorte the death of the Soule First if wee should speake strictly after the maner of Death in the Body then no man is so mad or foolish as to say that any mans Soul can dye at all that is want life and sense as a dead body doth Thus the very damned soules in Hell suffer not death But such a death as immortall soules are subiect subiect vnto is Gods separation froÌ„ them And this is 2. folde The 1. death and the 2. death as the Scripture speaketh The 1. is the separation of them from Gods grace which is in this life by sinne raigning in them The 2. death is Gods leaving them in the feeling of the most sharpe and most vehemeÌ„t paines inflicted by Gods iustice for sinne This last kind of death is so called and named in many places of b Ezek. Gen. 2â— Rom. 6â— 2. Cor. 3.7.5.20 aâ— 1. Ioh. 17. Scripture It hath also a double consideration First ordinarily and commonly it belongeth only to the Damned for their owne inherent sinne where withall are the ordinary Accidents and coÌ„comitants togeather Desperation induration blaspheming vtter darkenes c. with Perpetuitie of punishment and that locally in Hell In this sense the Fathers generally do take it where they deny that Christ suffered the death of the Soule and so likewise do we Secondly The death of the soule or the 2. death may be extraordinarily and singularly considered namely to imply no more but simply the very nature and essense of it 〈◊〉 Death the Soule â—â—rist tasted That is the feeling of most deadly infinit paines inflicted by God himselfe in his proper iustice for sinne all sense also of his comfortable presense being taken away This is a Death to the Soul â—â—g 113. â—ag 135. 6. â—ag 112. 3. as * before we have shewed according to this sense the Scriptures †Fathers before noted may rightly be vnderstood not to deny it in Christ so that this kind of Death in the soule but none other we may safely say Christ did suffer for our sinne imputed to him Moreover let it be observed that if wee had no proofes at all in Scripture for this point yet our Question is fully proved coÌ„firmed notwithstanding by those other sufficient pregnant proofes alleaged iustified before For it is be to noted that no man setteth the questioÌ„ in these termes That Christ dyed in his soule neither doe we at all vse them very much in speaking of this matter We do only when some speciall occasion draweth it from vs neither then do we vtter it in those termes but with vsing some further declaration of our minde The reason of this warynes is because we are not ignorant how ambiguous the phrase is and how apt to be mistaken specially where men list to cavill Also people vntaught and vnsetled in construing the scriptures sense do quickly take offense at thinges which they ought better to digest So that you doe very iniuriously to grate still one this phrase of speach and to straine it to the worst as you do as if by no meanes it could beare any good sense and as if we built our maine Assertion onely heerevpon Which in truth is nothing so The same also doe we affirme touching our vsing in this matter the phrase of Christs suffering Hell paines Both these phrases are but seldome and respectively vsed by vs. Howbeit we deny not but that both these phrases may be well and rightly applyed vnto Christ on occasion â—â—g 16. 52. â—â— 113. as * before is observed may both serve truly and most emphatically to expresse the infinitnes of the paines and sorrowes of his suffering for vs. Yea this very phrase of death extended in Christ further then to his meere bodily dying hath I doubt not expresse ground in the Scripture and therefore may the better be vsed soberly admitted charitably You will aske where is there any scripture Proofes that Christe suffered any other death then that meerely of his body I answer First consider well that to the c Hebr. â—ebr 5.7 Hee offered vp prayers and supplications with strong crying teares to him that was able to save him from death It is not possible that this Death heere should be
the now L. Bishop of Winchester to begin among vs a new matter of faith neuer heard of before in England but only in the dayes of Popery touching the All sufficiency of the meere Bodily Sufferings of Christ and to maintaine an other which was neere worne out of his going downe to Hell in Soule In both which because my conscience assured mee that hee was much mistaken and laboured that others should mistake also I thought it not besides my duty the Lord offering me opportunity to maintaine the truth and that in all plainenes and evidence of the Scripture as God inabled me with This now a while since being published wherein my trust is I caryed my selfe no otherwise then J ought the Author and maintayner of the contrary hath so of late intertayned it as seemeth to mee and to many others wonderfull Wonderfull not for strength of reasons nor for exquisit matter such as neuer before was delivered though his learning J acknowledge and will not but reverence his gifts but wonderfull his answer is and altogeather extraordinary considering that such incomparable bitternes disdaine skoffing reproch and furious rage doth so abundantly com from him therein against my poore selfe being yet by the mercy of God a true Christian a Minister of the Gospel and one I praise the Lorde which euer haue bin carefull to bee free from the scandalls of the World Though heerein J boast not but rather with the Apostle will boast of mine infirmities Verily this now J haue learned by his writing better then euer I conceaued before namely what great oddes he maketh and desireth to be made betweene himselfe a Lord Bishop and an other being but a Preacher of Gods most holy word Well this is the Rhetorike and the ornaments of his Conclusion against my treatise But all this is besides his Matter which nevertheles may haue peradventure som weight in it It may peradventure Wherefore J see a double necessity vrging me to reply therevnto First to the end that his exceptions and reasons that is to say his wholl matter may appeare yet better to be so weake and vnsufficient as indeed they are See that those vncivill reproches I will not say vnchristian revilings being the bewty and forme of his booke may appeare to be but the froth of a distempered stomacke the colour of reason and iust cause which he casteth on it being taken away As touching the matter therefore thus I purpose to deale I will begin with his later writing which he calleth a Conclusion because he mainly directeth it against mee taking in by the way also all such places points in the former Treatise as do rightly concerne our matter in hand Finally as touching his reproches and cruell words I intend wholy to passe ouer them seeing for them neither is he any whit the better nor my selfe the worse The Defence of the Treatise of Christes sufferings against Maister Bilsons Conclusion HIs Conclusion for so he thinketh good to call it beginneth against me in his page 225. Wherein first he doeth change me in generall termes that I flee from the state of the Chiefe question and overskip his Authorities The like saith in Eâ— pag. 9. in his reasons I forget and dissemble what pleaseth my self in the defence of my holy cause as it pleaseth him to mocke I roue as I list neither keeping any order nor bringing any matter of moment coÌ„fusedly powring out the hasty resolutions of mine own braines spiced euery where with ignorant absurd positions proudly despising all authority antiquitie c. Al which words are but wind as I shal make it evident God willing wheÌ„ we com to view his particulars heerafter insuing Among which he * Pag. â— beginneh to iustifie that he mistooke not his Text when hee preached this doctrine But I wil speak thereof anon so that first I satisfie him in the most principal point of his challeÌ„ge against me Which is this “ Episâ— that I haue changed the first questioÌ„ that I set not down the state therof fully nor truly so I offer to prove that which he never denied I coÌ„fute that which he never affirmed Let vs ther fore coÌ„sider advisedly this questioÌ„ which I wil set downe again as exactly as plainly as I can that we may see how far I erred froÌ„ it before We affirme That Christ in his Soul suffered all Gods proper Wrath and vengeance being paines and punishment for sinne no sinne also as touching the essence or nature thereof The suâ— whole out 1. â— and so farre as was due Generally for all mankinde to suffer His contrary opinion we conceaue thus That Christ suffered for our sinnes nothing ells but simply and “ or 〈◊〉 his Hoâ— fectioÌ„s â—â—tio and meerely a Bodily death altogither like as the godlie and holy men do often suffer at the handes of persecutors saving only that God accepted this death of his Sonne as a ransom for sinne but the death of his servants be doth not The Opening of the whole staâ—e of this Question For the better vnderstanding whereof we must note these principall things taine spe I things to â—oted First that All suffering of Paines in man is froÌ„ God either properly from his Iustice or from his Holy Love either froÌ„ him alone or also from his Instruments and inferior meanes Againe Al suffering of Paines is for Sinne either inherent or imputed either as Correction or as Punishment either immediatly or mediatly as anon we shall further see Sec By the Lawe of our Creation as we are men having a Soule besides our Body so our Soule hath in it a 3. fold faculty of Suffering Paines First that which is Proper and immediat iustly so called â—ee kindes 〈◊〉 Soâ—â—es â—â—â—ing of 〈◊〉 Proper because it is proper only to reasonable and immortall Spirites although in men if it grow vehement it affecteth coÌ„sequently the Body also Immediat 2. wayes 1. because it can doth receave an impression of sorrow and Paines made from God only by and in it selfe without any outward bodily meanes therevnto 2. It is also an Immediat Punishment or els Correction of sinne it cometh not for any other cause at all So that thus we meane when we speake of the Soules Proper and Immediat Suffering The Soules second faculty of Suffering paines is not Proper but Common to vs with Beasts namely that which is by Sympathy Communion with and from the Body For which cause also it is not Immediat sith it commeth not to the Soule but by externall bodily meanes A third kind of painful Suffering the Soule hath namely her vehemeÌ„t strong AffectioÌ„s are Painful whether they be good or evill As Zeale Love CoÌ„passion Pity Care c. Neither are these immediatly for Sinne whether Punishmentes or Corrections but they com for and by other immediat causes â—â—tions no â—â—at â—or 〈◊〉 Punish 〈◊〉 5. neither are they Punishments or Corrections at all
by the death and bloud of Christ. So you commend the force and frute of his bodily death as most sufficient â—ag 84. â—â—g 88. And * the bodily death of Christ payeth the price of our Redemption â—ag 335. it removeth all the impediments of our salvation The ioynt sufferings of Christ the Soule feeling what the Body suffered were most avaylable for our salvation â—â—g 336. †The violence was offered to the Body the sense whereof reached vnto the Soule and these are the sufferings of the Crosse and of death which the Scriptures attribute to the Sonne of God for our salvation â—â—g 60. 58. There is no other sacrifice of Christs Soule which can be neither bodily nor bloudy * The iustice of God both temporally and eternally punisheth the Soule only by the Body 〈◊〉 254. 255 Nevertheles contrariwise you seeme some where to yeeld wholly so much as we affirme â—â—g 17. As where you say The same part might indeed suffer in Christ which sinned in man J meane the Soule If you meane as you seeme and as you ought that as every part and faculty of the Soule is in vs sinfull so in Christ it suffered for our sinne then in his Soule he suffered for sinne properly and immediatly that is in his very Mind from the immediat hand of God not only from and by his Body 〈◊〉 87. 4. Againe you allow in Christ * All those afflictions and passions of the Soule which naturally and necessarily follow paine This All reacheth vnto mo and more grievous paines then the meere bodily are it includeth the Soules porper immediat paines also 〈◊〉 138. And yet playner Smart paine and grief of body or mind bee it never so great will commend his obedience and patience 〈◊〉 286. And * the punishment of sinne which proceedeth from the iustice of God and is no sinne that Christ might and did beare Yea he suffered death with all painfull 〈◊〉 87. but no sinfull concomitants and consequents 〈◊〉 76. And * nothing might befall the humane nature of Christ which was vnfitting for his Diuine Whence we gather vnderstanding you in the best sence that whatsoeuer was fitting for his Divine nature to admit of in his Humanity that his humane nature did feele Consequently then he felt all the paines of the damned which were no sinnes neither indeed perpetuall seeing his Divine nature could admitt this in his Manhood aswell as any suffering at all for sinne You will say If hee felt not also desperation as the damned do then hee felt not all the paines which the damned do feele For desperation augmenteth their very paines I answere we say not that Christ suffered simply All the paines of the damned that is He felt not such as are by their very nature sinnes aswell as paines as indeed desperation is But I say Christ suffered none of those paines All other which are by their nature meere paines and onely painfull Christ did suffer them as sharply for the time we doubt not as the very damned do So that if your L. will stand to that which before we obserued in you and not clip it not renounce it we professe this is all that ever we did or do craue wee neede no longer to striue it is the wholl question which you grant vs viz That Christ did beare punishment of sinne as great as any is proceeding from the Justice of God yet being no sinne Whence it must needes follow that the paines of Christes suffering were the same in nature and altogeather as sharpe and as painfull as they are in Hell it self And this is the whol summe of the matter about Christes Hellish sorrowes and paines thus standeth our quaestion with these differences according to which we hold and professe that Christ suffered the Wrath of God or Hell paines If you set the question otherwise you go back from that which you found fault withall in your Sermons you fully ioyne with the Preachers and Catechismes of England yea withall other Protestants in the world and namely with all them whom at first you reproued and traduced openly for this cause There is none of them I assure you that euer spake or meant any more then this issue delivereth If you agree to this I beseech you what wisedom shewed you in your whot confutations exclamations so vehemently to condemne you knewe not what and to reprove you knew not whom Further if any do teach that Christ suffered the paines of Hell in a grosse and locall maner though you most iniuriously do invey at vs for such a matter yet verily it is neerer your owne assertion then ours if you be well observed For seeing you determine simply that Christ might did suffer such punishment of sinne which proceeds from the iustice of God and is no sinne it seemeth by your speech that Christ did suffer Torments even locally in Hell it selfe for that had ben a punishment that is no sinne â—â—â—â—â—icus â—â—â—â—â—st Latiâ—â—â—er Act. â—â—â—â—on that in deed some learned and godly men did hold but erroneouslie As for vs somway we avouch your sentence also that Christ suffered whatsoeuer punishment of sinne which proceeded from the iustice of God is no sinne but yet with expresse limitation froÌ„ Scripture namely in CircuÌ„stances as I shewed viz. in this world only not after his crosse at all nor locally among the damned So that thus we say it is not true that Christ suffered the paines of Hell 〈◊〉 hold not 〈◊〉 at Christ â—â—â—fered simâ—â—y the parâ—â—s of Hell which yet those your fore-noted indefinit wordes doe import Nay speaking exactly wee vse not this terme of Hell neither delight we to vse it ofteÌ„ in any regard about our maine Quaestion because we finde not this word literally and expreslie applied to Christes sufferinges in the Scripture Howbeit sometimes we speake so I graunt and I thinke that wee may well doe so As also 〈◊〉 â—ny other â—â—â—nts of Reâ—â—â—on are â—â—â—yme afâ—â—â—ned vtâ—â—â—ed when we vnderstand it by plaine Consequence froÌ„ Scripture for the extreame paines of Gods proper wrath vengeance for sinne from which euen Hell it selfe is not separated yea Gods very wrath is a parte and the greatest parte of Hell paines Or els Metaphorically when we haue to set out with an emphasis the most dolefull and incomparable paines of Christes sufferinges as they appeared onely to the sense of men not otherwise Which it seemeth your selfe also liketh well enough 〈◊〉 8. â—34 â—â—9 But howe badly then doe you vrge vpon vs and perswade men that we doe must say in maintenance of this our Question â—â—imious â—â—â—tation 〈◊〉 1.8.244 â—â—7 264 â—â—0 34â— * that Christ suffered All the sorrowes of Hell the whole Curse of God his whole wrath and All the very Torments of the damned and that in such sense as you make of those wordes that is including in
them the Locall Hell eternall punishment Diminution of faith Holines c. with Desperation â—reat 1. â—â— 40 Reiection vtter darknes c As for my wordes which you wrest that way they are cleared by my Opening this Question both before and after Wherefore wee plainly tell you that we defie and detest in our heartes as well as you all these blasphemous wicked thoughtes of the Sonne of God our most glorious and gratious Redeemer And yet if you had vnderstoode those Phrases the whole Câ—rse of God His whole Wrath All the sorrowes of Hell onely toâ—ching the sense of Meere paines that Christ feeling the proper wrath and Iustice of God punishing him for our sinnes felt as extreeme sharpnes of paines which had no mixture of sinne as may in any possibilitie be endured yea though in Hell it selfe and so a kinde also of “ As in 〈◊〉 place I 〈◊〉 â—hew forsaking in them a kinde of * Such as 〈◊〉 self explaiâ—â—â— pag. 245 And as 〈◊〉 Curse is nâ— words bâ— deeds pa. Cursing and hatred and condemnation and a sense of burning wrath which he being our high Priest and Sacrifice was appointed vnto and which payment of ours was by God layed vpon him being our Redeemer and Ransompayer Surety and that all this he sustayned and suffered for a time in this life so deeply wofully as was possible for a man any where to suffer which was also wery God I say if this had ben your meaning we would not then hold it blasphemous nor erronious as “ Epiâ—p you obiect it vnto vs but the very truth indeed to say Hee suffered the true paines of Hell and the wholl wrath of God Which verily your own words also in some places do imply yea at least so much and that manifestly enough it seemeth as before I haue observed But to wade further then this and to particularize or to specifie the parts of Gods wrath which Christ felt as * Pa. â—47 you will vs to do or to shew the manner how or the certaine measure how deepely he suffered it what madnes were it in men to attempt and what folly is it in any to requier This sufficeth that we know God is able aswell out of the locall Hell as in it to reveale and inflict spiritually this wrath where he findeth sinne vnsatisfied and in Christ the vnion of his Godhead might admit it in his Manhood his Soule was capeable apt to discerne and feele immediatly the impression thereof in it selfe Now because also God was heere bent to punish all our most horrible sinnes in Christ and he was ordained to receave the same vpon himselfe and God was never to punish them truly any more nor any where ells and because of the proportion of Gods exact Iustice which dispenseth not where there is no necessitie for dispensation because also of Christes taking our wholl nature for no needfull purpose at all without this and lastly by reason of many pregnant texts of Scripture proving by infallible arguments that thus surely it was in this mystery of Christs purchasing our redemption which you in all your writing have no whit defeated therefore we are vndoubtedly perswaded that this is the very truth of God Namely as “ Treat 80.81.7 before I taught as touching the sense of paine and vehemency of sorrow that Christ suffered for vs All and wholly the wrath of God and his bitter Curse That is as I said so far as * Pa. 37. possibillity would admit so far as he being also very God and a man not possible to sinne could suffer Neither is there any peece of reason on your parte for the contrary And this is much more I trust then to suffer in Soule by Sympathy only from and by and with the Body Pag. 13.14 which as before I shewed you plainly do make the only wholl suffering of Christ for our Redemption which kindâ— of suffering all Godly men doe suffer also when the wicked in the world do afflict and persecute them But touching suffering of Martiâ—s and godly men Pag. 8.11 it is not intruth as †before is shewed of that kinde as Christes suffering was and therefore this suffering of the Soule onely by Sympathy commeth nothing neere to the sorrowes of the suffering of Christ which hee suffered from the hand of Gods offended Iustice and pure Holines and Wrathfull power infinitly satisfying it selfe on him for our sinnes which by his office he receaved vpon himselfe to acquite vs from the same This no Martir nor godly man doth who suffer only as from the malice and rage of men â—â—â—d therefore â—â—â—ey are so â—â—â—eerefull at â—â—â—eir Death â—â—â—hen Christe is extremeâ—â—â— sorrowfull from God there proceedeth nothing but fatherly chastenings to them his very wrath indeed for their sinnes appeareth not at all against them which they know Christ hath once borne and for ever dissolved You haue wordes in some places as if you hâ—ld this difference with vs of Christes sufferinges compared with the suffering of Martirs Namely where you say Pag. 248 Christ suffered the wrath of God punishing sinne â—ag 257 not * in his Body only but in his Soule also by some proper punishments of the Soule as by sorrow and feare in his Agony c. Howbeit though these wordes seeme plaine yet I perceave ambiguity and fallacy in them yea also I thinke a great errour First your fallacy is in that you meane sorrow and feare indeed properly in his Soule but not any proper Punishment of sinne nor comming for any paine or smart that he felt inflicted for sinne but it was meere Devotion to God 2 1â—4.23.9 144 290 Love pity compassion towards men Which say you could not be without some feare and zeale and griefe That is true but this is a notable fallacy For many thinke that you meane Christ suffered such sorrow and paine as was both proper to the Soule and was the proper punishment of sinne also But then had you heerein fully agreed with vs. Nowe that Religious Devotion godly and â—â—â—tâ—ous Aâ—â—tions and Pity are properly partes of Christes Holines and righteousnes not of his Sufferings for sinne For these 2. parts of Christes Mediation I trust you will distinguish And surely Christs Agonie was properly a part of his most bitter Passion not of his Obedience and Righteousnes albeit even in suffering also he was perfitly obedient Thus then you are never the neerer to the truth in this point for all your seeming Againe considering what you write of the wrath “ Pa. 130 132.246 of God which the Godly generally do suffer you seeme to me to thinke that every Martiâ—s death and all the crosses and griefes both of body and minde in the godly are very * For yoâ— make Gâ—â— Wrath â—â—â—ferent to men who afflicted punishments of sinne and right effects of Gods Iustice and wrath taking properly vengeance on them
common sense of Gods wrath so in my wholl Treatise I take it for Gods perfit Holynes Iustice Power i Ioh. 3â— Psal 2â— 2. Cor 9. properly executing vengeance punishment whether little or great due to them on whom sinne lyeth But you generally do so cary this phrase as signifying any punishment of sinne whatsoever and namely the Afflictions which the very Godly do suffer which is altogeather an vnproper speach This I observe most specially in one place of your booke above others Where you say l Pag. 1â— All kindes of troubles paines and griefes in our states bodyes and mindes which shorten or sower this present life are degrees of Gods wrath and chasticements of out transgression corruption Which presently you prove by many needeles Scriptures And from this sense of his Fathers wrath you do not exempt the Lord Christ. You meane that this he suffered indeed and that this is all in your opinion It is true All troubles paines griefes in their first Ordinance a were the effects of Gods proper wrath â—â—ou doe 〈◊〉 rightâ—â—â— 275. But in their state and condition now they are b not namely as the Godly do suffer them Which we must heere note and consider well â—â—at 1.14 â— 132 You say right also This †because it seemeth grievous for the present and not ioyous is called somtymes in the Scriptures the rodde and wrath of God True it seemeth But indeed it is not so or it ought not so to be For c it seemeth otherwise to the iudgment of faith and knowledg 〈◊〉 1.2 â— 2.28 〈◊〉 2 Cor. â—0 â—efore pa. â—â— 19. Then Gods wrath in this sense is very vnproperly taken as I have often said Wherfore speaking properly exactly as in this CoÌ„troversy we ought according to the revealed minde of the Holy Ghost it is Chasticement correction it is not in any wise Wrath or punishment properly meant Neyther may it be said properly that his Iustice leadeth him to inflict it on vs as e you affirme but it is his Holynes and Love towards his children which chasteneth them 〈◊〉 132. According to the Scripture which saith 〈◊〉 12.10 f God chasteneth vs for our profit that we might be partakers of his Holynes And g whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth 〈◊〉 6.7 〈◊〉 11.32 he scourgeth every Soune that he receaveth If we indure chastening God offereth himselfe vnto vs as vnto sonnes for what sonne is it whom the Father chasteneth not Therefore to speake properly not Gods Iustice but his Holynes and Fatherly Love doth move him to lay whatsoever Crosses and troubles vpon his children He is not vnto them a Iudge or Revenger but a Father Neyther is it Wrath that cometh from him or Vengeance for sinne properly â—â—r 11. but h amendment in Love towards the godly Now the case with Christ was cleane otherwise He needed no Amendement but that which he suffered was right Punishment He was neyther in case as the wicked nor yet simply as the godly He differed from them both and yet in som pointes did partake of both their conditions He was like the godly in that he was highly beloved of God and had no maner of sinne of his own laid to his charge He was like the wicked and differed from the case of the godly greatly because he was laden charged with sinnes yea with all maner of sinnes sustayned their due punishment there being also none other at all to indure the vengeance of God for them but himselfe As we haue largely shewed before in opening the state of our Question Thus then whatsoever Christ suffered and specially at his death was very wrath and vengeance from God properly taken true punishment and iustice executed against sinne for sinne to the which he was in som sort condemned and appointed also this was the true Curse of the Law which thus he sustayned for vs. Nevertheles in all this his Case was extraordinary his condition in the like punishments vtterly vnlike to the wicked For his owne nature was still for all this most holy faithfull stedfast loving the Lord and beloved of him albeit in his office of Redeeming vs and suretyship for vs he did sustaine truly and not vnproperly as the Godly do the Lordes very wrath against sinne which he tooke vpon him Heere is now the Power of God to be deepely considered togeather with his vnspeakeable Iustice and Love and Holines Even one of the greatest mysteries of Christian Religion which to vnfolde what toung is able yea what heart can conceave it And yet most necessary most comfortable to be vnderstood of all men Namely how the Lord hath assigned to his sonne in the worke of RedemptioÌ„ 2. personnes as it were or countenances or coÌ„ditions His owne naturally which God ever deerely loved our countenance or person or coÌ„dition which he sustayned by his office which condition the Lord truly a As yoâ—â— Gods Câ—â— pag. 26â— in deeds in wordâ— accursed and punished Only the sense of the paine of Gods Vengeance came indeede vnto his most holy nature the Curse the Hatred the wrath and iudgment of God being quenched therewith His owne nature felt the sorrow and paine of the Curse and Hatred But the Hatred Curse was bent against the load of our sinne wherein he stood forth as guilty before God and appeared as it were clothed therewith This was Love and mercy to vs this was Iustice vpon Christ having vndertaken for vs this was infinit power and wisdom both wayes in God to bring it to passe which no creature can comprehend his Holynes and Love still chastening his Redeemed ones but laying no part of true Punishment or proper Vengeance for sinne vpon them which Christ only did for them wholly sustayne Thus also seeing Christ indeed had no sinne in him as the godly have to be corrected neyther could be correctted chasticed for nothing therefore properly he was not chastised nor corrected at all but his Afflictions every one both small and great were true and proper punishments and the effects of Gods very wrath for our sinne lying vpoÌ„ him 〈◊〉 245. Som where a you say Christ might suffer the wrath of God in his body yea in his soule he might suffer it and yet not the paines of the Damned or of Hell We grant you say true Christ suffered not the paines of the damned nor of Hell vnderstanding this for the very same condition state alltogeather b as the Damned are in 〈◊〉 you deâ—â—â—e it pag. â—0 49.50 We abhorre such blasphemy as much as you that Christ so suffered Hell paines Yea albeit I know you are far from thinking so yet I say your words do com neerer vnto it then ours do â—â—g 15.16 as is c before noted But I aske do you graunt that Christ suffered Gods wrath in Spirit as the Apostle d somwhere distinguisheth the Spirit Soul If
doâ—â— fully 〈◊〉 vnto emphasis d Isa 53 Hee susteyned our very sorrows or our sorrowes themselves And this we conclude the rather because the sense of paines and sorrows e Heb. 2â— only was the Ransom ordayned and consecrated by God in Christ that by them his sufferings should be accomplished our sinnes satisfied Whatsoever therefore in this life might be painfull was due to mankind generally for sin in it owne nature was no sin that Christ suffered wholly and alltogeather for vs even the same which els we should Which is your own f pa. 28â— plaine confession also I grant indeed it vtterly impossible that he who was vncapable of sinne yea God himselfe should be really separated from God or Hated or weakened in faith or punished externally Yet it was possible that even he on whom our sinne was laid should feele both properly in Soule and also in Body all the whole vehemency of our due paine and the sharpenes of our smart Paine affliction sorrow is not sinne be it small or great it is indeed properly and originally the Punishment of sinne either in vs or in others Christe suffered Punishment for sinne not in himselfe as others do but by Gods ordinance he suffered punishment extraordinarily for sinne in vs. When God smot him it was possible for him to feele it yea vnpossible it was that he should not feele it and of necessitie his Soule peculiarly properly infinitly did feele the stroke of Gods wrathful iustice The vehemency whereof may wound and pierce no lesse even in this life where God will then in the locall Hell it selfe All these our due sorrowes therefore and all this our sharpest deserved paine even Gods owne immediat hand smiting the Soule for sinne which far exceedeth and comprehendeth as it were all other paine Christ without any dispensation or qualification whatsoever indured for vs. This is that which we say and thus Ierom also expoundeth this very text â—trom in 〈◊〉 53. Saith hee a Quod nos pro nostris debebamus sceleribus sustinere ille pro nobis ' passus est Turne nowe your vaine and frivolous insultation against Ierom for his indefinit speech to whom it pertayneth in this case aswell as to me Pag. 26â— if you be not a respecter of persons Say to him b You may do well St Ierom to go to the Vniversitie againe whence you came afore you were wise and there learne to put quantity to your propositions that we may know when you speak of any thing whether you meane All or Some But Jerom would be wise enough to answer you if he were alive that whersoever he studied he knew so much that in learning and reason an indefinit proposition is to be taken as Vniversall in a necessary matter 〈◊〉 specialâ—â— Satisfying Gods vnâ—â—all Iustice 〈◊〉 * as the vndertaking of a Surety is in his stead whom he is surety for and yet namely but so far as knowen possibility admitteth and indeed no further Now this is apparant in this case of Christes suretyship and suffering in our steed Hee suffered all the whole punishent of sinne due to mankinde whatsoever was possible for him being a sinles man also very God to suffer And further then this none will imagin or thinke that any vnles mad men do affirme You charge meâ— c heereafter that I falsify this place of Ierom 〈◊〉 350. â—â—reat 1. 〈◊〉 85. Curse 〈◊〉 I put it â—â—â—hus Maâ—â—ctum 〈◊〉 a paâ—â—â—nthesis â—â—nod enim â—â—al 3.13 because d I did put in e maledictum with his wordes Which is a silly devise to turne of Jerom without answer For by it I expresse Ieroms meaning f his words have plaine reference to Maledictum in the g Apostle whoÌ„ he cited immediatly before This is theÌ„ none other but an honest falsifying of mine Authour Now that this place of Isay and the whole doctrine which I avovch touching these sufferinges of Christ for vs may the better be receaved let vs note that the publike doctrine appointed by h Authority to be taught through our England expresseth the very same Which Auâ—â—â—tie I have â—â—â—ged exâ—â—sed Treat 〈◊〉 88.89 â—he answereth to iâ— a word Namely Nowells Catechisme where it is thus taught He paid and suffered the paine due to vs and by this meanes delivered vs from the same Neither is it vnvsed among meÌ„ â—ne to promise and to be surety yea sometime to suffer for an other But with Christe as our Surety so suffering for vs God dealt as it were with extremity of law but to vs whose sinnes deserved punishments due paines he laid on Christ he vsed singular lenity gentlenes clemency and mercy Christ therefore suffered and in suffering overcame death the paine appointed by the everliving God for mens offense Againe His will was to suffer All extremitie for vs who had deserved all extremitie All these things being taken vpon himselfe he destroyed them all Where marke also what doctrine the Law of this Realme consonantly publisheth and commandeth in the Homilies of Christs Passion See whether it misliketh yours or no. The b Hom. â— Hom maketh Christs putting himselfe betweene Gods deserved Wrath and our sinne the extreamest part of his Passion If this were the extreamest part of his Passion then it was a further feeling then the sense of Bodily paine only it cannot be any other then his feeling of Gods proper Wrath spiritually which our sinne deserved Therefore by the Homily hee felt Gods proper Wrath spiritually which our sinne deserved Againe he bare All our sinnes sores and infirmities vpon his owne backe No paine did he refuse to suffer in his owne body But as he felt All this in his Body so hee must feele the greatest part primarily and much more deeply in his Soule Ergo hee refused not to suffer All the paines of the Wrath of God both in Body and Soule c Hom. â—â— Hee tooke vpon him the reward of our sinnes the iust reward of sinne But this same Homily saith The reward of our sin was the iust wrath and indignation of God the death both of Body and Soule Therefore by the Homily Christ tooke on him for vs the iust wrath indignation of God the death both of body soule And thus also * 1. Treat pag. 34. my text of Scripture is iustified That d 2. Tim. â—â— Christ gave himselfe the price of redemption for vs which we els should have paid Where e Pa. 261. you except against this text in Timoth that I say The Scripture speaketh heere after the common vse custom of redeeming captives taken in warre wheÌ„ a captive being not able som other friend payeth Antilytron the same price for the captive which els he should You aske who told me that the Scripture speaketh after the common vse of enemies I answer The nature of the word Antilytron a Ransom importeth so much which is properly vsed in such cases
But neither shame nor Death to the holy Martyrs are d accounted by God nor by his servauntes as proper and true Curses Before pag. 9. 50. but the holy men are in trueth most glorious and blessed in them Againe the Saints and Martyrs can not bee properly Cursed and properly Blessed too in any measure Neither their Soules blessed vnles their bodyes be blessed also free from the true Curse although you seeme to denie this point Which strange and vncouth assertioÌ„ both heere and in many places mo you doe at least insinuat that is that the godly in their Soules are blessed but in their bodyes they still retaine Gods true proper Curse till the resurrection Which I leave to the consideration of the godly You say We must call things by those Names which God first allotted them That I deny If God since evidently have altered them and disposed of them otherwise But he hath so don in this case The afflictions and death which originally and naturally were punishments for sinne and are so still to the wicked the same to the godly as I have often said are since changed now are properly Chastisements of sinne and not Punishmentes nor Curses Only Christ hath suffered the whole proper punishment and true Curse or Vengeance of our sinnes and therefore on vs it is not it can not be laid againe in any part thereof You a Pag. 96. avouch some that denie Christ to have bene made a Curse or sinne But you must remember b Pag. 92. your owne place of Austin Maledictum est omne peccatum sive ipsum quod fit sive ipsum supplicium The Curse is all sinne which is twofold either that which we commit against Gods law or els the very Punishment of that sinne Nowe c Pag. 96. your testimonies do meane Christ was not made a Curse or sin the first way that is he was not in him selfe sinfull nor hated they deny not the second that he was made the proper punishment or Sacrifice for our sinne And thus though you lust not to see it yet my d Treâ—â— pag. 45. speach was sound and true If Christ dyed simply but as the Godly dye it might in no sort e Gal. 3. heere be called a Curse The reason is evident because the text heere doeth speak treat of the Curse of the Law against sinne such therefore was Christes Curse which he suâ—layned To conclude then his afflictions and death was neither Wages nor Chastisement nor Curse nor Consequent of any sinne in him Yet as God made him sinne for vs so he truely properly and in very deed laid the paine of his Curse vpon his body and Soule Which Curse of God vpon Christ as you f Pag 26 say truly was not in words but in deedes Wherefore my wordes g Pag. 2â— you openly pervert affirming that I say Death heere that is Christes death noted Galat. 3.13 â—ay in no sorte be called a Curse when I expresly even there and every where doe say the contrary Pag. 263. But a your greatest exception is that this Curse laid on Christ cannot be vnderstood of the whole Curse of God or of the Law Pag. 264. and therefore b you spare me not for c saying that Paul heere in his application out of Moses nameth a part of the iust Curse of the Law for sinne Treat 1. pag. 40. thereby meaning and inferring to his purpose the whole Where you must be so good as to vnderstand me by mine own words in other places Pag 290. For thus d you know e I limited my speach els where As touching the vehemency of paine Christ was as sharply touched as the very reprobats Treat 1. pag 81. And Christes sufferings were equall to the very Hellish torments in vehemency of paine and sharpnes Againe f This price equally in Justice must be kept so far as it is possible Pag. 26. And g Pag. 37. Because there was no impossibility no necessitie no reason but he might feele the full smart of our sinnes as there was that he should not feele the full continuance thereof and seeing Gods strict iustice requireth it to be so therefore it was so he suffered all the smart but not all the continuance of our punishment â— Also Pa. 23. Heeâ—e Pa. 13 Thus then plainly h I signified i those 3 Limitations which now are expressed that Christ suffered our whole Curse only so far as the possibilitie of thinges could admit wherein nothing was dispensed nor pardoned to him for there was no cause as I have often said Which doctrine how vnworthy it is of your strang contempt and outcryes against me I leave it to the godly Wise to consider Nowell Catechis Only marke if our k publike doctrine be not the same Vltima omnia pati voluir pro nobis qui vltima omnia commeriti sumus Diram execrationeÌ„ suscepit coÌ„tumelias etiaÌ„ omnes omnia probra atque supplicia c. But you will say thus we make it not the whole Curse of the Law Yes we cal it rightly the whole Curse for as much as Christ suffered it in his whole manhood See before pag 8. 1. The. 5.28 â— pa. 48. 52 even in l All the powers of his m Spirit Soule Body where that Curse in Deutero being a part was suffered only in the Body quickned by the Soul Also in other respectes this suffering of Christ may bee well called the whole Curse or PunishmeÌ„t of sin Pag. 11 12. â—nâ— 16.17 Pa. 27â— 280 as n before is declared After this o you thinke it strange that I say Christ suffered dyed iustly and was hanged on the tree by the iust sentence of the Law that so hee was by imputation of our state and condition vnto him sinfull 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 51.11 defiled hatefull and accursed All the which I avouch because he vndertooke by Gods ordinance as our Surety to receave our whole condemnation vpon himselfe so far as his owne nature and condicion could possibly admit Christ suffeâ— iustly to the ende that hee might wholly acquit vs. In regard whereof I aske Is it wrong for the Law to lay the penalty on the surety when the debtour can not discharge it Against this my assertion you say a Pag. 27â— By no sentence of the Law he hanged on a tree And a reason you give b Pag. 273 because to be hanged on a tree was no necessary part of the generall Curse of God vpon all sinners I answer to Dy for sinne was a necessary part of the generall Curse vpon all sinners What say you then to his Death Did he dy iustly Sure if Christ dyed by the rule of Gods iustice then he dyed iustly If he dyed not by Gods iustice then Wo and thrice Wo to vs. For it cannot be but Gods Iustice * Luc. 16.1 Deut. 10.1 Rom. 8.32 See before pag. 66. must
lâ—sse to make his Sonne or his Sonne to make him selfe any such Suretie or Redeemer of Rebells as Christ was made and might be made of God for vs. So that also where you would have it to serve that we might perceave by this how Christ was not defiled nor hatefull nor guilty by imputation of our treason it is evidently to weak For you have not shewed neither can shew that this Kings Sonne was or ought to have bene such a Suretie Redeemer as Christ was that is vnto bodily death Therefore this Similitude cannot bee good We have other maner of warrant that Christ was by imputation made Sinne for vs and the Curse for vs and that this ordinance was holy and right and above all reproofe Which you can not bring for your Kings SoÌ„nes Suretiship nor for the Kings fact who kept not the order of iustice when he spared abominable Rebells without their bloudshed or when he slew his guiltles Sonne for them that they might be spared After this c he impugneth another reason of myne with marveylous skorne and detestation Pa. 183.284 That seeing Christ d on the Crosse spoyled principalities and powers Col. 2.15 and made a shew of them openly triumphing over them Therfore I collected that Christ there discerned and felt the Powers of darknes Sathan and his Complices as very instrumentes working the effectes of Gods wrath vpon him selfe Which as I conceave is no such foolish nor impious reason as he vainly pretendeth For doth not the very phrase and maner of speach import some such mightie contention and violent opposition where yet at length an absolut glorious triumphant victorie was obtayned Surely it doeth This then must be conceaved and felt by Christ neither could these be other effectes but onely of Gods proper wrath severitie and indignation against the sinne of the world which was matter of a Of som paine a tormenâ— opposition against Christ at that season it could not be the revealing of anie glorie or comfort which such instruments procured vnto him wrought vpon him Against this you bring not a word Nevertheles your high disdaine towards me breaketh out touching the maner how this might be But what is that to the purpose What if no toung can expresse the maner as neither have I once indeavoured to expresse it shall not therefore the testimonie of the H. Ghost be true that on the Crosse Christ obtayned such a victorie against the Divells which implyeth also such a Conflict first as I have observed Yet because you will needes examine the maner howe possibly this might be let vs see what you make of it The Divells saye you have nothing to doe with the Soules of men but eyther to tempt them or torment them First before I answer you directly this wee may consider Christ might and no doubt he did in his Soule discerne conceave and applie to him selfe all the rage malice How Châ—â—â— might be faulted by than on Crosse and violence of the Iewes tormenting him to death as set on fire by Sathan him selfe and by all the powers of Hell and these also as set on worke by the Iustice and severe Wrath of God now purposely laying punishment on his Sonne thereby to take satisfaction and recompence for all our sinnes Now this feeling and suffering in the Soule of Christ made an other kinde of impression in him and was infinitly more greevous and dolefull as touching the present sense then otherwise the meere outward stripes and woundes of men were or could be These conflictes of Christ on the crosse with Satans rage malice laboring if he could possibly by these meanes to have queÌ„ched the light of our Salvatio may wel be vnderstood by the Apostle in this place yet none of your exceptions do touch this argument Elswhere in your book you speak directly against the maine grouÌ„d of it affirming that God himself did nothing to Christ that is he did not pperly punish him Thus you say b Pag. 3â— God did not any thing vnto him And c Pag. 32. who did Crucifie him I pray you God or the Jewes And d Pag. 7â— He was indeed coÌ„demned by man that gave wrongful sentence of death against him but he was acquitâ—ed of God And e Pag. Christ was no more a Curse then he was Sin who indeed and with God was neither â—roperâ—â—â—hed â—â—st â—â—or 5 21 but with men he was reputed both wicked and accursed Notwithstanding the very trueth and Gods word it selfe is flat contrary to you For it is written a Hes made him Sinne for vs which knew no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Yea b he made his Soule sinne Which is nothing els but that c the Lord layd vpon him or inflicted vpon him the iniquitie of vs all 〈◊〉 53 10. 〈◊〉 6.5.10 â—rem in 〈◊〉 8. 〈◊〉 4 28. â—â—m 8.3 Yea d the Lord delighted to bruise him and afflicted him or slew him And the Apostles doe acknowledge that e both the counsell and the Hand of God was in Christs punishment Finally f God sending his Sonne in the similitude of sinfull flesh and for sinne â—â—iac condemned sinne in * his flesh His CoÌ„demning of sinne in Christ was in deeds and not in words Gods own hand then did smite Christ and inflicted on him whatsoever he suffered as the condemnation of sinne Where yet we imagine not that God was moved with any affection or perturbation â—â—g 245. but as f you acknowledge the punishment or dayned for sin by the Iustice of God and inflicted by the hand of God whatsoever meane it pleased him to vse is called the wrath of God And then howe may we thinke Gods infinite Iustice power punished Christ Surely in all such respectes as he was capable of paines and punishments as from God Wherefore in his spirit certainly he suffered spirituall and incomprehensible punishmentes being no sinnes such as Mens soules are subiect vnto as from God In his Body also he felt bodily afflictions wch our bodyes can apprehend Some God himselfe immediatlie inflicted some hee inflicted by meanes and instrumentes but still it was his Hand principally which did what soever was done vnto him Neither can you say that Christs punishment was Gods meere and bare permission only Nay his punishment was his revealed and written will his expresse and publike ordinance and most holy appointment from the beginning of the world and now at last effected by his owne hand and by other meanes when the fulnes of time was come Wherefore the whole suffering of Christ was Gods owne and most proper action The wicked Iewes and Divells were only his instruments to doe that which he set them on worke to doe though they thought not so Now we come to answer you more directlie touching the text in hand Where you would intimate that Christ on the Crosse was not tempted by the powers of Hell because
Properly in them selves Accidentally they may be when they growe so strong that they paine and grieve the Soule These 2. later kinds of the Soules Suffering you acknowledg to have ben in Christ the 1. kinde you vtterly deny â—â—g 5. 6. 16 〈◊〉 253. â— 255. 335 Now I affirme that Christ tasted also the 1st kinde For how could the Proper and principall Humane Suffering be not in him â—â—â—br 2.10 a Man made of God to * Suffer for all our Sinnes So this in a maner is the point of our CoÌ„troversie And verily how you can deny the same by the Scripture yet acknowledging withall a true and perfit Humaine Soule in Christ I cannot see Namely seeing iust occasion heereof was giuen him from God as afterward shall further appeare You * pa. 248. seeme to sticke at those termes which I vse The Soules proper and immediat suffering you call them “ pa. 257. 336. vnsalted and vnsetled But any may see how easy they are to bee vnderstood and also that wee must in this quaestion necessarily thus distinguish the same from that which is by sympathy is comon to vs with other creatures Thirdly wee must also note that God himselfe is alwayes and evermore the principall and proper punisher then when the Soule suffereth paines after the first maner that is in her proper and immediat faculty of suffering And that is alwayes immediatly for sinne also not for any other cause at all Gods owne almighty power armed with iustice in burning wrath thus punisheth sinne somtime more somtime lesse when and how it pleaseth him Fourthly God himself therfore was thus the principall and only proper Punisher of Christ as hee sustayned the punishment of our sinnes The Divells and wicked men his Persecutours did their parts also indeed for other ends but yet they were all as Instruments only vsed by God vnto his owne end namely that Christ might pay heereby a iust price and full satisfaction for our sinnes It was then the Almighty and most iust God himselfe in his severe wrath against our sin that principally properly inflicted on Christ the paines and punishments which he as our Surety suffered for the paying of our Ransom As it is written “ Isa 53. â— The Lord laid vpon him the punishment of vs all Whatsoever you have against this afterward we shall consider it in due place Fiftly we meane not that in God was is or can be any †As youâ— serve wâ— pag. 24â— perturbatioÌ„ at all and therefore consequently no Wrath nor Hatred as is in vs. But because Wee painfully afflict others with whom commonly wee are Angry and we discerne somtime and see paines inflicted on men by God therefore we say he sheweth his anger and wrath vpon them whom hee punisheth Nevertheles wee must note especially that to suffer as the Godly doe Chastisements and corrections is not to suffer or feele Gods Wrath nor indeed the pumishment of sinne except it bee in a very vnproper speach To suffer the true punishment satisfaction proper payment wages of sinne only that is to suffer properly and truly the Wrath and Curse of God Now then seeing the paines which Christ for vs did feele were indeed properly the Punishment and Paiment and vengeance for sinn such as the Godly do in no wise suffer Christ only having wholly suffered that for vs all Therefore indeed his sufferings proceeded from Gods proper wrath and were the true effects of Gods meere Iustice bent to take recompence on him for out offences the Godly never suffering any thing at all in such respect Sixt These paines which Christ suffered as the proper Punishment and Price of sinne and inflicted on him even by Gods own hand did not make smart and anguish only in his flesh or onely in the sensitive part of the Soule by mutuall coniuction sympathy with the body but of necessity must also be deepely conceaved felt in the vnderstanding and Mind of Christ Now how deepe this was as we neither do nor can precisely affirme so we are well assured that the sense of paine was not lessened nor abated in Christ needlesly Hee suffered doubtles according as sinne deserved in every point except only in such respects as were flatly impossible For the better vnderstanding whereof wee are heere to note another principalll distinction â—â—â—fering of â—aines for sin 〈◊〉 fold â—or sinne inâ—â—eâ—ent and â—â—puted that there are 3. divers and severall sortes of suffering paines directly for sinne 1. As the wicked and damned do that is by suffering the proper wrath of God truly punishing in them that is properly in their Soules aswell as in their Bodies their sinnes in whom togeather with their paines there is also inherent sinne abiding and imputed the cause of all their punishments with the the adiuncts and consequents thereof desperation induration blaspheming reiection malediction hatred and finall dereliction with such like These are certain proper and right conditions of the reprobat heere of the damned in Hell â—â—r sinne inâ—â—â—ent but 〈◊〉 imputed which Christ never tasted 2. The godly in this world do suffer paines for their sinnes But these whatsoever they be yea though death it selfe are improperly called Punishments as was before noted â—â—ch 12.5 â— 7 8 9 10 â— they are * Chastisements of sinne Yea they are partly remembrances to cause repentance of sinne past presently inherent partly Chastisements to humble vs and to mortifie sinne in vs more and more hereafter And thus they are in no sort inflicted on vs as very Curses by Gods Wrath and Iustice properly so called but properly by Gods Holynes and Love as after wee shall further see These are the ordinary wayes of suffering for sinne but nothing appertayning to Christ neither 3. 3 Suffering sinne not haerent yet impuâ—â—â— There is another peculiar and extraordinary way belonging onely to Christ according to which Christ suffered for sinne distinct and greatly differing from both the former and yet in some speciall points agreeing with both 1. Christ suffered for sinne being sinles indeed How Châ—st sufferings those of thâ— Godly dâ—gree Hoâ— they diffeâ—â— as the Godly also are sinles “ Rom. 4. by imputation Againe their sufferings are temporary and in this life only such also were his But Christes sufferings were exceeding much differing from ours 1 in that his sufferings were for our sinnes now made his by Gods accoumpt and ours are for our owne Also his were the true and proper Punishment or iust vengeance of God for sinne ours onely Chastisements and remembrances which belonged nothing at all to him His the true effects of Gods severe and iust Wrath properly taken ours are from his iustice wrath improperly so called Touching the Reprobats and damned How the sufâ—â—rings of Châ—â—â—â— and of thâ—â— Damned 〈◊〉 differ 1. their sufferings are for sinnes inhaerent Christes were for sinnes only imputed So that Gods Anger
was not against Christes owne person but against the sinnes which by his office in his own person he sustayned the sorrow and paines whereof touched his very person 2. Their punishments are partly in this life and partly eternall in the life to come but Christes were temporary and only in this life 3. Their sinne being inherent not forgiuen and iustly punished they haue all the properties and Concomitants of sinne inherent never forgiuen but in wrapped in eternall punishments as these Desperation the stinge of Conscience Induration Reiection Malediction Dereliction c. But in Christ where no sinne was inhaerent nor eternally punished there could vtterly be none of these 4. They are pumished heere chiefly in Hell the proper place of the damned heereafter but Christ suffered onely heere in this life Lastly their tormeÌ„ts though euerlasting deserue nothing at Gods hands but Christ though suffering but for a while deserued infinitly favour and grace for them for whom he suffered Howbeit as I said the sufferings of the damned are all one with Christes How the suâ—â—â—rings of Châ—â—â—â— and of thâ—â—â— Damned 〈◊〉 the same as touching the Nature of the punishments and as touching the chiefest causes thereof First God himselfe was the proper and principall Ordayner Author and Executor of his punishment Gods owne hand did it to Christ no lesse then to the damned Sec Christ having most horrible sinnes imputed to him as the damned haue also therefore he suffered for them from Gods hand euen as the damned do namely in these points which are both possible and reasonable that is paines inflicted immediatly and properly in the Soule and not only by outward meanes in the Body For it is most reasonable and possible that the Soule of Christ should haue our sinne imputed to it yea principally to it and not to the Body only even as wee commit sinne in our wholl manhood but yet principally in by our Soule Which being true that Christes reasonable Soule had sinne imputed principally to it according to that of the Prophet He made his Soule sinne Isa 53.10 therefore his Soule principally peculiarly did suffer for it Also his Soule by nature being capable of suffering from Gods very hand an occasion now serving therevnto because of all our sinnes wholly imputed to him lastly God himselfe standing now disposed to punish and revenge sinne in him so far as he was capable thereof therefore his punishment for that sinne was a true proper full punishment as theirs is namely as touching meere paines and was the effect of Gods proper Wrath iustice and vengeance as well on his Soule as on his Body thus for the time it was even like as the sufferings of the damned are â—a 53.134 For * continuance of time in paines is not of the nature of Hel paines or of Gods Wrath Pag. 341. nor yet to be in Hell locally as you wrongly imagin but meere circuÌ„stances ther of only Thus the very nature of punishment for sinne being but the feeling of extreamest paines from Gods hand whether for a time or for ever whether locally in Hell or ells where that neither altereth nor lesseneth the present paines which Gods owne infinit wrathfull power iustice can inflict for satisfaction where and how it pleaseth him These paines then to this end and in this very manner inflicted Christ felt Indeed not being in the locall Hell yet those being as wee see the self same paines for their nature which are in Hell â—ag 247. yea which are * sharpest in Hell And he discerned and receaved them properly yea only in his very Soule as then was manefest when his body was so brused with sorrowes and sufferings yet none at all then touching him without that there strayned out from him much sweat of clotted blood c. These things being thus now let vs see wherein you agree with vs 〈◊〉 248. and wherein you disagree We all agree in termes That Christ suffered in soule Gods Wrath howbeit touching the sense we disagree in 2. maine pointes The iâ—â—â— the qâ—â—â— I affirme that Christ suffered Gods Proper Wrath and vengeance you meane hee suffered only such afflictions as other godly men do suffer at the handes of the wicked and cruell world For “ Pa. 1â— you thinke all Afflictions whatsoever small or great towards whomsoever are the effects of Gods Wrath. But that is not so except in a most vnproper speach To the godly their Afflictions both small and great are Gods Fatherly and gracious Chastisements and no effects of his proper Wrath as shall appeare further heereafter Howbeit you must observe heere my 3. limitations which I set down in the * Beforâ— Quaestion 1. I meane he suffered only that proper Wrath of God which was meerely Punishment for sinne and no sinne 2. This also hee suffered as touching the Substance and Nature of the Paines not as touching the Circumstances either of of Place or Continuance c. 3. I meane hee suffered not every particular Punishment of sinne nor that which every particular sinner meeteth with all but the Generall Curse and Punishment of God for sinne namely that which belongeth in Gods Iustice to All men in Common and Generally who abide in sinne Now after these necessary limitations the maine point wherein we further disagree is this I affirme that Christ Suffered All Gods proper Wrath and vengeance for sinne namely so described and limited as is above said I say All that which the very Damned doe suffer Christ thus did suffer for vs and therefore even a Proper and immediat sense in his Soule of Gods Proper most painfull Wrath his infinit and vntolerable burning Wrath. Which what toung is it that can expresse or hearte conceaue Yet Christs Humane Soule was apt and able to feele it though not to sustaine it A iust occasion in him was offered therevnto for then he stood foorth as the only and absolute Ransompayer of all our debt And Gods vnpartiall Iustice dispenseth not without necessitie Yea where he cometh to Punish he layeth it on finding sinne vnsatisfied as he doth inhaerent in the wicked and as he did imputed in Christ our surety till he had by †Heb â—â— Sufferings accomplished finished perfitly his RedemptioÌ„ for vs. Your Aâ—â— on wâ—â—â—â—gain saâ—â— Christ â—â—red iâ—â—â— only 〈◊〉 froÌ„ hiâ— But this is far greater then as you hold that He suffered no more but meere Bodily paines that is in his Soule by froÌ„ his Body This is your drift every where but I note these expresse places â—â—g 16. * Sin which should have wrought in vs an eternall destruction both of Body and Soule could not farther prevaile in him but to the wounding of his flesh and sheding of his bloud for the iust full satisfactioÌ„ of all our sinnes even in the righteous and syncere iudgment of God Likewise your generall Title is The Full redemtion of mankind
for sinne in such maner as he doth on the Reprobat though not in such measure and that such likewise were Christs sufferings But then I deny that therein yow have the truth or have rightly expressed the sufferinges of Christ or of his Saintes Because the sufferings of the Saintes are properly not punishmeÌ„ts for sinnes nor effects of Gods wrath properly but are indeed fatherly profitable chastisements purposely inflicted by God for their good as before is said But Christes were altogeather of another nature and condition they were the only true and proper punishment price Satisfaction and Ransom for sinnes as hath ben also noted before after shal be further shewed If you vnderstand Christes suffering Gods Wrath to be such as the godly feele viz improperly and largely as the Scriptures †In your 13â— there do meane and not as the very price and punishment for sinne but only as Chastisements then that is likewise manefestly vntrue Also then againe for your words you are ambiguous and deceiptfull in this issue which kinde of vanity you commonly vse in all other your handling of controversies since you left writing against the Papistes as who so looketh shall see For wee affirming that Christ felt the wrath of God doe meane it properly as it inflicteth properly the punishment and Wages of sinne Your Equâ—cation in terme Gâ—â— Wrath. and you tell vs that he suffered Gods wrath as the Saints and Godly men doe suffer it That is altogeather vnproperly beeing sometime so called for a certain seeming that it hath to bee so as you acknowledge in the sense of flesh and bloud Then what is this to our purpose What ells do you worke heerein but deceipt mistaking to the Reader through the ambiguity of this word the Wrath of God Which palpable fallacy of yours is so plaine that I need not stand to open it any further and yet I assure my selfe that this is the very ground and refuge of the errour in this Question Which if a man marke well distinguish as he ought and may easily do he shall quickly drive you either to shift into this corner Your Equiocation or ells to deny much of that which you affirme in your booke elswhere Therefore lett the wise consider it Neverthelesse if happily you meane otherwise that is Pas you seeme 〈◊〉 meâ—â—â— paâ—â—â—01 105 that Christes very * outward sufferings and bodily death were in a peculiar sort the effects of Gods proper wrath thus truly punishing our sinnes on him then in effect you come to vs againe of yow will sticke but to this For there is no reason in the worlde to make Christes flesh subiect to Gods Curse for sinne and not his Minde and soule likewise Also wee must note that such outward bodily sufferings beeing indeede punishments and not chastisements for sinne that is proper effects of Gods very wrath and iustice comming to take vengeance for sinne they cannot be meere bodily sufferings nor meerly felt by sympathy in the Soule which is the proper effect of the outward sensitive facultie only but they must of necessity be conceaved discerned applyed in the inward feeling of the Minde of Christ â—â—d 〈◊〉 deny at â—â—â—nce that Mens â—â—â—ules haue â—â—â—ny sense in yeâ—â—he â—inde beâ—â—â—des the Comâ—â—â—â— sense deâ—â—nding on â—â—â—e Body and will make a singular and secret impression of sorrow in the Soule far above all meere bodily griefes beyond all measure and proportion of things in ordinary experience so exceedingly differing from all other sufferings in this life Which therefore may iustly bee termed the proper and immediat sufferings of his Soule And this sense the Lord doubtles revealeth vpon men somtime more somtime lesse in this life even as it pleaseth him Which also befell vnto Christ Againe Pag. 257. if the Agonie and sorrow which you grant Christ suffered simply in his minde be meant by you to have ben as it were a foretast of such sufferings and a feare or dread of them as very iustly it may be considering the weake disability of a Creature to stand vp against the Creator Propathia namely now shooting or preparing to shoote presently the sharpe arrowes of his wrath vpon him for our sinnes in which case and condition Christ now stood for that while then I say also I see in effect no difference betwene vs then againe this Question is as it were at an end For doubtles he suffered at one time or other the same thing which he so feared Yea such a kind of fearing cannot be but a mighty suffering thereof Neither doe wee contend to expresse what iust measure of Gods wrath nor precisely in what manner it was revealed and executed on Christ Onely wee know that whatsoever it were Gods very wrath and proper vengeance for sinnes though outwardly executed on the Body yet it could not but sinke in deeper even into the deapth of the Soule and be discerned by Christ and conceaved to be such and so sustayned as proceeding from God and so wound the Soule properly yea chiefly though the anguish thereof bruized his body iointly also Againe whatsoever you wil call it All or * Such 〈◊〉 as waâ— nothinâ— whol 〈◊〉 sinfull 〈◊〉 rents oâ—â— part of Gods proper Wrath and vengeance as it proceeded from him was incomprehensible vnspeakeable infinit and vntolerable to any creature therefore so it was vnto the very Manhood of Christ namely when the Godhead for a season concealed it self of purpose and with held his wonted supportation and comfort from him to the end that his bitter Passion ordayned of God and most voluntarily vndertaken by himselfe might bee in suffering the “ The 〈◊〉 Paines rowes 〈◊〉 sin werâ—â—â— Christ foâ—â— time no qualifye◠〈◊〉 lessened sorrows and paines which were due to vs nothing qualified but in all severity accomplished As indeed when his Hower was come and gon it was As touching that terme The death of his Soule which you stumble at we shall speake thereof heereafter in due place Thus far I have proceeded in opening the true state of this Quaestion which whether you who have begon to avouch the contrary will now acknowledge and approve or not I know not Overthrow it I trust you shall never with all the cunning and strength you have For vndoubtedly it is and so will appeare by the word to be a manefest truth and therefore “ Act. 5â— will prevaile besides that it is expresly the doctrine taught and established by authority in England as heereafter God willing I shall plainly shew notwithstanding all your strange coÌ„tradicting traducing thereof Lastly whether I did set down this very state of the quaestion in full effect in my former Treatise or whether I changed it though indeed I graunt I was there much shorter then I am heere I pray you looke consider againe in that my †Pag. 5 33. and first booke This being well considered and marked will
you meane not thus 〈◊〉 The. 5.23 then you againe vse sophistry deceaving vs with the worde Soule For wee meane thereby in this Question onely the Spirit or Minde as it is also called in exact and distinct speach Howbeit speaking vulgarly and ordinarily we calle it the Soule Which yet sometime is vnderstood onely for the Sensitive parts quickning the body and depending thereon But this indeede is not it which we haue heere in quaestion If you meane in Soule to be properly and immediatly in his immortall Spirit as the ordinary phrase intendeth and that so he suffered directly punishment for sin in his Soule not Devotion Piety zealous Care only as I doubt e you meane then you differ not frō vs 〈◊〉 observe 〈◊〉 18. but we al agree And thus my wordes shal be true Christ suffered a sense of Gods wrath f equall to Hell it selfe and all the torments thereof For as touching Gods wrath punishing his Spirite Which you 〈◊〉 s o blame 〈◊〉 244.247 who can say but that this was as hoat and skorching as Hell fire it selfe Who can limit or measure the fury of Gods severe Iustice when he cometh in iudgment against sinne as now he did vnto Christ This therefore being well pondered we may preceave that Christs sorrow anguish which he indured for sinne might very well be and was no doubt infinit yea even in those bodily stripes woundes and bloudshed whose paines otherwise were finite His soule not only discerning sensitively the bodily paine smart but chiefly in the vnderstanding he conceaved and in his faculty of immediat suffering he felt the fury of that hand which principally strooke those blowes vpon his Humane nature not Pilats nor the Iewes who were but instruments but the originall and chiefe imploying them which was Gods Justice armed with vengeance for his sinne His I may call it for he paid for it Now this could not but make an vnspeakeable impression of paine sorrowes which stacke in the depth of his soule Who then can say how litle or how small this was Nay who can declare or comprehend the infinit greatnes of it Finally your self doth grant expresly that a Pag. 2. the Wrath of God is Hell indeed only it b Isa 30 causeth Hell to be cruell Yea you grant it to be sharper then Hell So that we see heereby how vainly you say c Pag. 2◠Out of this proposition Christ suffered for vs the wrath of God for sinne I shall never conclude Ergo he suffered the true paines of Hell I have heere shewed you I trust that this followeth well seeing the wrath of God which Christ felt in his Spirit was his right and proper wrath albeit he suffered not all nor the wholl wrath of God nor Hell locally nor every part thereof iust as the Damned do Which you without all colour of reason or likelyhood would make men imagine to be the question betweene vs. You d Pag. 24 would make a Contradition in my wordes for saying e Treat 1. Christ suffered in his wholl manhood and afterward f Treat 1. Christ suffered Gods wrath properly and immediatly in his Soule Where I say not as you vntruly charge me that He suffered all that he suffered in his whole manhood Wherefore this is a niew contrariety Againe granting him to suffer all that he suffered in his wholl manhood yet he must suffer Gods wrath as God wrath properly and immediatly in his Soule in his Body mediatly and by coniunction only with his Soule And thus my reason g Treat 1. there framed is yet still wholly good and sound Then I am charged with absurdityes I know not how many nor how great 1. h Pag. 34◠Because I say i Treat ◠pag. 17. Christ assumed not our nature nor any part of it but only to suffer in it properly and immediatly As if I had meant heere that he became man not to reveale to vs by his owne mouth his Fathers will not to worke righteousnes for vs not to quicken and sanctify vs but only to suffer for vs and nothing els Wherein who would have shewed himselfe so vniust an Adversary so vnreasonable Were it not reason and iust dealing to consider whereof we dispute and so weighing the whole matter of our talke not to stretch and racke my words further then that All men may see it to be manefest that k Treat ◠pag. 16. heere I speake only of Christs suffering for our redemptiō having not one word about his other benefits which he wrought for vs. Pag. 17. a And after speaking of Christs Soules suffering I shew that although there were 2 sortes thereof one immediat and proper an other by Sympathy from and with the flesh yet Christ tooke our Humane Soule only to suffer in it properly immediatly that is his maine end was not that he should suffer in it by Sympathy from and with the body and onely so which you very strangely affirme So that my meaning is no more but to exclude that which you affirme That Christ tooke his Humane Soule to suffer in it only from and by his Body This heere I denyed and nothing els For I grant that Christ intended that his Humane Soule should suffer by Sympathy but yet also this he intended not directly nor primarily in taking the 2 distinct partes of our Humane nature our Soule and our Body He intended it by consequence because Natures right state was such in vs therefore determining to be in nature like vs he would also that his Soule should feele the Bodyes outward harmes as it doth with vs. Howbeit in comparison of the Soules most principall disposition of that which is proper to Reasonable Creatures he did not respect the inferiour part that which is common to vs with Beastes even this sensitive suffering by Sympathy with and from the Body I say in comparison of the other Christ respected not this yet he did respect this also as I said secondarily consequently that is because he intended to have our nature in whole and full perfection as we have it only except sinne Now I beseech you would any vpright adversary obiect against me that in this speach I exclude Christes doing righteousnes in his Soule for vs c. I appeale to all indifferent Readers Rather hence we are to gather to conclude that each part in Christ ought to have the proper and immediat vse as is incident to the nature thereof aswell in suffering as it is cleere that it hath in working righteousnes In Christes working of righteousnes and obedience to God his Soule had a proper and immediat part to do which it executed without the Body as to conceave meditate on the will of God revealed to him to love and wholly to imbrace it and to purpose the full performing of it c. His Body also had a proper and externall vse not onely to follow
be executed it cannot be made voyd So that if Christ in Gods proper iustice dyed not for vs then in his Iustice without mercy we must and shall dy Which God forbid But Christ therefore indeed suffered dyed most iustly according to the rule of Gods strict Iustice in all points possible Yet you say His hanging on a tree was no necessary part of the generall Curse of God vpon all sinners What if that were no necessary part of the generall Curse It was nevertheles iust from God vpon him aswell as his Death No particular Punishments are necessary but accidentall in their own nature The generall Curse c Gen. 2 1â— Thou shalt dy the Death comprehending them all not as necessary but as accidentall parts Yet wheresoever by Gods providence they happen they are iust Punishmentes no lesse then the Generall Curse And thus Christ answering for sinne not only Dyed generally but also was hanged on the tree particularly by the iust sentence of the Law Still I meane iustly in respect of God alone for men vsed meere violence wrong and no Law towards him For they persecuted him as a malefactour as they said yet indeed hee being in himselfe altogeather faultles and without blame You seeme to mislike that Christ should suffer iustly because he suffered willingly for vs. Which hindereth not at all for the voluntary surety beareth his penaltie iustly when he sustayneth that which the debtour by Law should sustaine You say d Pag. 27â— No Lawe you are sure not Gods Law alloweth that when a murderer or such like offendour transgresseth he should be spared and an other that is willing hanged in his steed And therefore you mislike the similitude of a Surety in the worke of Christes Redemption I answere in Gods Law that is not true which you say Vnderstanding heere by Gods revealed Will and his most holy and gracious Ordinance for vs. Though indeed this is not his Law properly but his Gospel the most blessed glad tydings of peace and health to our Soules Now by this Law of God I am sure that Murderers Adulterers Theeves and worse then these are spared in Gods presense and an other that is their most willing surety executed by the iustice of God in their steed Pag. 280. But a no similitude can prove Christ in taking ouâ— person on him to be sinfull defiled hatefull and accursed I deny this saying vtterly b How could he be by God properly and truly punished and Cursed for sinne Fâ—ee 18.20 Gen. 18.25 but that he was sinfull and hatefull And it is written c God sent his Sonne in the likenes and forme of sinfull flesh for sinne Rom 8.3 Synac bebâ—sich and condemned sinne in d his flesh In which likenes he stood before God indeed before the world he was reputed so 2. Cor. 5.21 but falsly And e God made him sinne for vs that we might be made the righteousnes of God in him As also he was made f a Curse for vs. Gal 3.13 Though you â—y nay p 280 Calv in Gal. â— 13 Heb. 9. vlt. Pag. 11 12. â—â—d 50.51 Wherevpon Mr Calvin g warily enough saith h Vt personam nostram suscepit peccator erat maledictionis reus And the i Apostle saith Ek deutérou The second time he shall appeare without sinne meaning that the first time he appeared with sin Yet this is k not inhaerently but by imputation the Lorde translating by his ordinance the sinne of men vpon him reckoning them vnto him Even as by Gods true and reall imputation not by any inhaesion we now in this life are iust holy and blameles before God so was he sinnefull and defiled by imputation not inhraenetly Thus by this reckoning he suffered at Gods hands iustly yet in his own nature in respect meerely thereof he suffered both at the Iewes handes and before God the iust for the vniust Pag. 280. l You say where the Apostle saith m he was made sin for vs 2. Cor. 5.21 the Fathers have 2 good and approved senses differing froÌ„ ours 1 That God made him a sacrifice for sinne 2 that he vsed him as he doth sinners What is there in both these that wee acknowledge not Yea what is this later but the very same point which we vrge It is nothing els in all this quaestion that we hold but that God vsed Christ our Redeemer and Surety as he doth sinners so far as possibilitie admitteth that he could and might be so vsed And for this the Fathers are not silent if I were so ambitious as you in producing multitudes of men Cypr. de Pasâ— Only Cyprian and Athanasius and Austin shall content me in this The first n He sustayned suffered himself to be called Sinne and a Curse by Moses and the Apostle because he had the like punishment as we should have had but not the like fault a Pag. Your slight answere that it was like in part not in all salveth not the matter For Cyprian meaneth Christs punishment for vs was so like ours as was possible and that sufficeth vs. Also by this your weake answer you are contrary to your selfe heere in that you acknowledge that God in punishing Christ making him sinne for vs hee vsed him as he doth sinners Athanasius saith * Pag. â—â— De â—nea Ipse per se sententiam solvit sub specie condemnati Hee himselfe satis fied and abrogated the sentence of the Law vnder the appearance of a Damned man Did not God then vse him as he doth sinners in all extremity of punishment so far as was possible And that it was altogeather possible to inflict the sense of his wrath immediatly and properly in his Soul aswel as in his Body no reasonable man caÌ„deny Aust we saw a little b Before 71.73 before Thus also your former good sense of this that Christ was made sinne that is a sacrifice or punishment for sinne how differeth it from your second as you seeme to make them to differ Or how differ they both from our maine Assertion that Christ in himselfe sinlesse was by God reputed sinfull in our steed Nay this directly and necessarily proveth thesame For as I said how could he be truly punished for sinne by God but that he must be indeede sinfull by imputation The Iewes Sacrifices the expresse figures of Christe doe also most lively set out this thing When they were c Lev. â—â— brought vnto God the people must lay on their hands vpon the heads of the Beastes shewing thereby that their d Lev. â—â— sinnes were put vpon the sacrifice that God so accounted them indeed to be Wherefore what cause have you so to exclame as you do against this comparison of Christ our Redeemer with a Surety Christe truely Surety who among men by the ordinance of Lawe and iustice must and doth pay the debt when the debtour cannot It is neither a simple similitude as e
Pag. 2â— you simply call it neither is it f Pag. 2â— vncleane nor irreverent nor irreligious but a holy most fit representation of Christs paying our debt for vs and of our acquitting from the iustice of God by him The very word is vsed in Scripture it selfe g Heb. â—â— Hee was made a Surety of a better covenant Which also expresly you grant h Pag. â—â— That Christe is made a Surety wee finde it once mentioned in the Scripture Is not that sufficient then to warrant the goodnesse and aptnes of the similitude against your vndutyfull reproofes of it But you say he was not as a Surety bound to the Law but of a better Covenant even of grace Verily a Surety to vs of both Yea this latter implyeth necessarily the former vnles you imagine Gods Iustice needed not exact satisfaction so far as was possible or that there might be 2 Sureties to bring vs into grace and favour with God For he could not assure vs of remission of sinnes but by assuring vs that he had exactly paid all our debts Yea none could pay them for vs throughly acquit himself also but only he Therefore by being a Surety to vs of grace it must needes bee also that he and none other was our Surety to the Law and to the iustice of God 〈◊〉 4.4 Thus also it is written that a He was made hyponomon subiect to the Law 〈◊〉 277. or vnder the Law Which b you mightily deny against expresse Scripture But by what reason Because he was a Mediatour to God for vs. â—â—ns honeâ—vtia â—st conâ—â— 14.6 Now Sureties that stand bound must pay the debt may not looke to be Mediatours Yes forsooth such a Surety as he was might worthily be a gracious Mediatour also Though he were a Surety and stood bound yet he was no ordinary Surety Though the debt were infinit yet hee was more infinit in grace and power both to pay it and to overcome it and by his obedience and righteousnes to merit for vs yea even in his suffering What letteth then that such a person as he might be a Mediatour to purchase also grace and favour even in and besides his satisfaction for vs. c You say he could not be bound to the Law because he was above the Law 〈◊〉 276. He was above the Lawe in his Godhead but in his Manhood hee became for vs d vnder the Law Againe 〈◊〉 4 4. he was not of him self in his Manhood bound to the Law for us but freely and voluntarily vndertaking and by Gods gracious eternall Decree appointing him so he became bound to the Law Wherefore though e he who ordinarily redeemeth a prisoner from the enemie 〈◊〉 â—77 be not bound but content so to doe yet a Suretie being content 〈◊〉 became the Law â—unde to â—â—w for vs â—â—ds Deâ—â—d Ordiâ—â— and by â—ne free will becommeth bound And so Christ our Redeemer became bound as a Surety to pay our debt for vs by the most stedfast and immutable Decree of God and yet also by his owne most free good will Yea Gods Decree and his owne good will was that he should satisfie and pay none otherwise for vs then so as hee did Therefore those Sentences of f your Authours Gregorie Augustin and Ambrose if they bee spoken simply 〈◊〉 277. seeme very harsh where they saye That Christ could have saved vs otherwayes then by suffering and dying for vs. For heerein they oppose Gods absolut Omnipotencie against his expresse and revealed will Which how it may be liked in Divinitie I know not Wherefore still all these similitudes of Mediator Redeemer and Suretie may stand very well togeather in the Office of Christ though a Pag. you would perswade vs the contrary yea rather they confirme each other Certainly these Similitudes of a Suertie and a Mediatour are very approved excellent to set out most heavenly his great Grace and Iustice by earthly things Our publike Churches doctrine also avoncheth that hee was b Nowâ— techis fore paâ— our Suretie With Christ as our Suretie so suffering God dealt as it were in extremitie of Law c. Also Cyprian c Cypriâ— passioâ— In saying why hast thou for saken me he sheweth the sorrowes of that his complayning to be the wordes Delictorum suorum or Dilectorum suorum of his sinnes or if you so thinke rather of his beloved ones whose person case he tooke vpon him And this he would have vs to know that it was for them or in their steed who by reason of their sinnes deserved to be for saken of God You d Pag. 3â— answer that these wordes of Cyprian I neyther vnderstand nor like I pray why so Because Augustin saieth Illa vox membrorumerat non capitis That Cry was of his Members not of the Head Whatsoever Austins meaning is herein yet Cyprians wordes are plaine and can not beare any other sense then as I make of them that Christ was a very Surety for his people and suffered such a forsaking of God touching sense of paine and want of present feeling of comfort in the paines as the damned doe And touching Austin also I suppose you mis-vnderstand him but of his minde touching this speach of Christ on the Crosse we shall see further heereafter I adde vnto all this last of all your owne grant where you fully yeeld and acknowledge that Christ was our very Suertie to the Law and that he did suffer iustly or in Gods iustice The vengeance of the Law say e Pag. 9â—â— you once executed on our Suretie can no more in Gods iustice be exacted on vs. * Pag. 13â— Elswhere also you allow of this Similitude which yet f Pag. 27â— 276. 279. manie times you reiect most disdainfully Yea in that your sentence you overthrow g Pag. 27â— your owne chiefe exception which you make against it that he was not our Surety to the Law to pay our debtes If the vengeance of the Lawe lighted on him as on a Suretie then he was our Suretie to the Law and if this vengeance of the Law caÌ„ not now in Gods iustice be exacted on vs then he as our Suretie to the Law by suffering it hath cleered vs from it And to conclude that which he suffered as being our Suertie the same before God he suffered in iustice as is before proved And in vaine you exclaime that this is a against the Scriptures Pag. 272. against the faith against the Fathers against the Consciences of Gods people seeing it appeareth not to be against Pag. 182. but with all these b Your Similitude of a Kings sonne intreating for his Fathers Rebells is very weake and overthroweth if it were good a confessed point of Christes Redemption For by this similitude Christ should not have suffered bodily death for vs seeing no King hath lawfull power by anie meanes to lay bodily death on any such Surety much
against vs so consequently yea chiefly against Christ him selfe as our Ransom-payer and Surety in our steed If you meane that thus Christ with SubmissioÌ„ beholding his Father in iudgement at this time was cast into this Agonie it is the verie trueth and the same that we maintayne For this denyeth not but that he had real paines inflicted froÌ„ the Father as from a iust iudge against vs in him who were thus acquitted by him And thus if Aust and others a Pag. 3â— sentences be vnderstood that the Compaint on the Crosse was not Christs in respect of him selfe but in respect of his Church for whom then there he answered before God comming now to execute iudgement for their sinne so they are wel rightly vnderstood otherwise there is no trueth in them namely as you seeme to vse them Second God might be considered now as iudging Satan the prince of this world and overcomming him for vs by the victorie of Christes sufferings which he was nowe about to vndergoe that thus the Divell as b Pag. you note out of c Aug. Austin might be vanquished in our Cause not by Gods absolut and meere power but also by doeing iustice so we deliuered Thus where d Pag. you apply e Ioh. 32. Now even at hand is the iudgement of this world Now eveÌ„ shortly shall the prince of this world be cast out and I if I were lift vp from the earth will draw all men vnto me If you meane it in this sense as you seeme to doe it serveth well But that in this respect as God proceeded against Satan and for this cause Christ should bee cast into these dreadfull scates sorrowes and bloudy Agonies what man of iudgement would imagine What colour of likelihood is there in it Rather this were properly cause of great ioy and triumph indeed as sufficiently I have shewed in my f Ph. 5. former treatise wherevnto you answere not Your testimonies touching g Ioel Heb. Psal men sinfull wherevnto may be adioyned h Lucâ— an other of the like somewhat opening those places make nothing to the purpose at al. For these could not by reason of their Sinnes induce the very presence of Gods Maiesty beeing in anie measure revealed vnto them but Christ in him selfe being free from all sinne could be in no such case No better also is i Isa â— that of the Angells meere Creatures vayling their faces at the glorious presence of God the Creatour of all but Christ the Mediator was not a meere Creature but alwayes personally vnited with a greater power then the Angells were and alwayes sustayned by it vnles only in case of his Iudgement and Passion proceeding vpon him from God as is before noted when purposely the Godhead hid him selfe as it were and withdrew his wonted Comfort that the manhood might be subiect â—o full Punishment for vs as was appointed by God Although even nowe also the Godhead did sustaine his manhood thus being overloaden with paines otherwise it could not a â—efore â— 42 but have ben quite overwhelmed Third Gods Maiestie and iustice may be considered sitting in iudgement meerely against sinfull men If you meane heere against the sinnes of the Elect Christ knew the eternall and sure decree of God which had turned the Cup of vengeance alreadie from them vpon himselfe as being their Suretie so that this commeth to our Assertion as is aforesaid Or touching the Reprobates doe you think that Christ heere so vehemently wished them better whom he knew God hated or that for pity of them he fell into this Agonie and sorrowful prayers First Christ saith a little b 〈◊〉 17. â— before He would not so much as pray for them Yea it is certaine Christ rather would have greatly reioyced to see the due execution of Gods most holy and deserved iustice which is a speciall part of his high glory According to that which is written c 〈◊〉 58.10 The righteous shall reioyce when he seeth the vengeance he shal wash his feet in the bloud of the wicked And men shall say verily there is fruit for the righteous doubtles there is a God that iudgeth the earth Againe if Christes mournfull prayers were to wish better to the Reprobat how can that stand where he saith Let this Cup passe from me he should have saide from them Neither this also might he say from them as knowing perfectly his Fathers and his owne will directly to the contrary Your next supposed Cause d 290. Compassion towards men coÌ„tayneth 3. severall causes e 18.19 heere 1. for the Reiection of the Iewes 2. for the Dispersion of his Church 3. His zealous griefe generally for the sins of the world All these I grant were alwayes in Christ and caused no doubt alwayes heavines in him yet no more then a godly and heavenly minde could and would cheerefully digest and beare Wherefore you strangely deceave your selfe if you thinke that these any or all of them did so far exceede in him as to procure his most dreadfull and bloudy Agonie For the Reiection of the Iewes what reasons bring you a Luke 〈◊〉 Christ wept over their City Ergo Now at his Passion he was driven into his dreadfull Agonie for this cause and that rather now then when hee so wept expresly for them I deny this argument how will you doe to prove it I b Treat 〈◊〉 pa. 6. â—7 have shewed from hence the contrary wherevnto nothing is answered that seeing when a little before hee throughly intended expressed his affection about that matter yet therby he fell into no such Agonie but only wept and mourned for them therefore now in his Passion where he speaketh not a worde of them it is strange to say that his Pity of his CouÌ„try men the Iewes should drive him to sweat bloud and thrice to pray with teares and strong cryes that this Cup of grief might passe from him and thrice to yeeld him selfe againe to Gods will saying Not my will but thy will be done This verily cannot stand with any reason Again that his expresse Compassion towardes the Iewes a little c Luk. 19. Mat. 24. before he prepared him to his Passion plainly sheweth that now in the Garden and so still forward he gave him selfe wholy to other thoughtes matters Namely such as coÌ„cerned his great work in hand that is to be are the Paines which now chiefly he was to suffer for mans redemption at Gods hands Wherefore this work of Christ at this time performed and wrought by him Note is by a proper and peculiar Name iustly called his Passion not not his Compassion Againe you say For their sakes Moses desired to be wiped out of Gods booke and Paul could have wished him selfe to bee separated from Christ for his brethren the Israelites Ergo Christ at his Passion was cast into that strange Agonie for the griefe of their reiection This also
is the proper principall cause of his Agonie But what can bee meant by This Hower vnles the Paines of his suffering set and appointed by God for him to beare at this determined time from Gods Iustice for sinne What is this Cup but the bitter tast of the same Paines aforesaid This I hope was not his Holines and sanctification which so troubled and molested him not his Piety nor his Pity Nay finally he himselfe expresseth the true Cause even his excessive Paines his overabounding Sorrowes and anguish saying My Soule is full of paines or full of sorrowes even vnto death Heere hee nameth the Cause For which Cause also even of intolerable and vnsupportable sorrowes and paines it must needes be that he cryed at his end My God my God why hast thou for saken me This then manefestly was the only proper and principall cause of Christes most dreadfull Agonies and perplexity in his Passion even excessive Paines and the intire want of feeling of Gods comfort Pag. 17. and nothing els How hard soever b you make it I c know not why to shew the proper principall cause thereof Treat 1. Pag. 72. And heere wee will remember againe what is taught by Authority in England The rather for that you take on as a man impatient because I doe affirme that our doctrine not yours hath the publike Authorie for it Pag. 334. You d call it an egregiously an insolent and impudent speach well becomming an alehouse c. And yet in the verie next b Pag. â—â— page in plaine termes you graunt the same to bee taught in our Homily of Christes Passion for you say thus the Hom teacheth The Justice of God pursued Christe with most paynefull smart and anguish even vnto death and forced the weaknes of his humane flesh to cry My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Heere I am sure you think not that our Homelie maketh Christs Pietie or Pitie nor yet his meere Bodily paine to force him thus farre Nor in those wordes next following there c Hom â— Pass 2. O that Mankinde should put the everlasting Sonne of God in such paines for the grievousnes of our sinnes And in trueth that the Homily is farre from both these your meanings I have plainly shewed d Pag. 6 before Adde heerevnto the full and large declaration heereof in the authorised Catechisme e Nowe techisâ—â— Christ suffered not only a common death in sight of men but à lso was thoroughly touched with the horror of eternall death he fought and wrastled as it were hand to hand with the whole army of Hell before Gods iudgement seat he put him selfe vnder the heavy and grievous severitie of Gods punishment he was driven to most hard straights hee suffered for vs and went through horrible feares and moct bitter sorrowes of the minde that he might in all things satisfye the iust iudgement of God appease his wrath For to sinners whose person Christ did heere beare not only the sorrowes and tormentes of present death are due but also of death to come and everlasting So when hee did take vpon him and beare both the guiltines and iust paine of Mankinde damned and lost he was affected with so grievous feare trouble and sorrowe of the minde or soule that he cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Finally the Annotation of our great f Bibl. 1591. â— Bible authorized and appointed to be read in our Churches iustifyeth all this saying g Annoâ— Luk. 2â— Christ here felt the horror of Gods wrath and iudgement against sinne I pray who is that Egregious lyar now I hope for my part I have spoken the truth in avouching my doctrine that forenoted Proposition Assumption also by you denyed to be our publike doctrine and fully authorized in England Wherefore you may meane some other to be h Pag. â—â— a giddy Spirit lately buzzing in the peoples eares the coÌ„trary I hope I am clear from it And thus it remayneth that we conclude even our whole Reason to be firme true which is i Pag. 9â— before delivered The paines of Christes Passion which now he felt and feared were the principall and proper cause of those his Agonies But his meere Bodily Paines and death or the feare of them caused no such things and lamentable effectes in Christ much lesse did his Pietie and Pitie Therefore Christ felt and feared Paines more and infinitly greater then meere Bodily paine and death which were the principall and proper Cause of this strange plight in him Which consequently can be none other by necessary reason then the Paines and sense of Gods wrath in his spirite properly Therefore Christ suffered that also and not only in Body as you hold Howbeit you have yet heere and there some exceptions against this our doctrine which are not to be cleane neglected First you say â—ag 290. a I extend Châ—istes Agonie too farre because I will have it proceed from b the intollerable sorrowes and horrors of Gods fyrie wrath equall to Hell Treat 1. â—â—g 80. I shew not there the Cause of Christes Agonie and Feare I shewed it of purpose in the c beginning Why did you not refuse that Treat 1. â—ag 6 7 You ought to have dealt directly against that which I expresly mention to have ben the cause Thus I said His Sorrowes and sufferings for the redemptioÌ„ of sinnes The Cup of Affliction and sorrowe which now he felt and was to feele yet further Caused him to mourne and feare Say then plainly that this Cause is mistaken and too farre extended or els you say nothing to vs but by indirect and pâ—aeposterous collectioÌ„ Now if this Cause which we gave and doe give be true and right as I hope it is before proved more then sufficiently then I doubt not it is as true also by invincible reason that Christ suffered the intollerable sorrowes horrors of Gods fyrie wrath equall to Hell Which I hope also is as fully proved â—â—g 91. 117 being the effect of our d Assumption before Seeing it could not be his meere Bodily paines much lesse his Holy Affections as you hold that brought him to this miraculous miserie and distresse wherein wee see by the Text hee was Therefore they were the intollerable and incomprehensible dolours of his Spirit questionles which wrought the same There is no other sorrow in the world to be found which can be imagined to be the Cause possibly â—ag 290. And then my other wordes also which e heere you cruelly coÌ„demne shall stand well enough * That Christ as touching the vehemency of paine was as sharply touched as the Reprobats themselves â—reat 1. â—â—g 81. yea if it may be more extraordinarily Though you labour with might and maine to make them amount to Haeresie open blasphemie But why do you not bend your odious outcryes and accusations against that Authority before truly cited
determine the measure and depth of sorrowes which Christ in his Passion suffered as also it is not possible to define that glorie which hee tasted of for the time in the mount Only graunt this plainly that Christ suffered in his soule the true effects of Gods proper Iustice or wrath and we seeke no more Graunt this I say and then we will see further if you will make it a question whether the sense of payne in Christ was lesser for the time then that which is eternall in the damned and whether the true and proper wrath of God taking full vengeance of sinne heere in this world might not be as sharpe and violent as the sharpest torment in Hell yea the very shame which is in Hell the sharpest Truely though Christ suffered all which hee did suffer heere in this world yet for any thing I can see there is cause why Christ should be an Extraordinarie person in the case of Suffering for sinne in this life and that therfore as touching sorrow and paine he might feele more then ever any els hath or could feele for the time You seeme to graunt vnto Christ b Pag. 2 all naturall sorrowe and feare Neither doe wee seeke any more But you trust the payne of the Damned is more then a naturall oppressing and afflicting of the heart with humane feare sorrow Forsooth it is not It is no more then a very natural humane sorrow feare It proceedeth immediatly and principally from God him selfe who is the Nature of natures Also Humane nature is apt to receyue such sorrow fear from him Thus the very paynes of the Damnedare meerely naturall Yet supernaturall I graunt they are if we meane this that they are aboue our natures state to beare or to coÌ„prehend them This therefore hitherto is a very slight exception against our doctrine before delivered The next is as vaine Pag. 296. where a you thinke it not tolerable that I say Treat 1. â—ag 59. Christ b in playne words prayed contrary to Gods knowen will I pray haue patience I saye no harme nor meane no ill Did not Christ in plaine wordes pray â—â—aek 14.35 c That if it were possible this Hower might passe from him Ioh. 1â— 27 and before d Father save me froÌ„ this hower By this Hower he meaneth this his paine punishment appointed him by God for to suffer at that time And this Christe knew well seeing he saith presently But therfore I came into this hower Doeth he not then pray in plaine words coÌ„trary to Gods knowne will Therefore never skoffe at it nor reproch it nor wrest it We ought not to bee ashamed to acknowledge that weaknes of Humane nature in Christ which Christ was not ashamed of for our sakes to vndergo If this could not be possibly in Christes Manhood without sin then I were a wretch to affirme so much of him especially stil to affirm it But if it be possible by any means thorow the meere instinct of mans Nature as it is Gods creature and free from all sinne thus to speake and to wish suddainly and suddainly to controll it againe as Christ did then what minde beare you and how may we iudge of this your striving which is not to cleare Christ from all sinne in his Agonie For that we doe all and Nature it selfe witnesseth with vs that in such a case as he now was in this was nothing strang to be thus perplexed moved But your striving seemeth to be altogither to exempt Christ-man from our meere naturall affections and infirmities and to give him Humane flesh indeed but not such as ours is in all and every point except onely sinne You will say If hee knew it to be Gods will and prayed against it how could he want sinne I answer He knew it but at this instaÌ„t he coÌ„sidered it not he thought not on it and so his suddaine desire may bee cleere from sinne But why thought hee not on it or how could hee choose but think on that which he well knew and did so greatly concerne him I answer His Paines and sorrowes being so great and so infinit as they were not in his Body onely but chiefly in his very Spirit and Minde and these more extreamely revealed vpon him now at these instant times then they were otherwise or continually as by the effects of them in him we may perceave I say these things acknowledged wel wayghed as they ought to be then it is easy to shew why how Christ came thus affected yet without sin First he was now a Ekthamb isthaâ— is to astonished vâ—â—eare Maâ— 1â— 33 astonished as the text saith and you b Pag 124. acknowledge that he might be Sec these incoÌ„prehensible sorrowes incomparable paines astonished him yea impossible it was but his meere humane nature must be astonished with them And it is vtterly vntrue which you say c Pag. 196. Many things might astonish our Saviour for the time besides such paines In these instant times of his Passion nothing could astonish him but Paines and Sorrowes which before d Pa. 115 1â— I have proved or at least that Paines Sorrowes now did chiefly that nothing could possibly without such Sorrowes and Paines as these which I speake of even spirituall and infinit and incomprehensible paines proceeding from Gods Iustice vpon him for our sinnes Thirdly Adde heerevnto that which you rightly grant c Pag. 12â— It is true that a mighty feare may so affect a man for the time that it shall hinder the senses from recovering themselves and stop the faculties from informing one the other But this must be some suddain obiect astonishing the heart and so terrible that it suffereth vs not presently to gather our wits togither and to consider of it Likewise very fully afterward f Pag. 29â— Astonishment draweth the minde so wholy to think on some speciall thing above our reach that during the time we turne not our selves to any other cogitation Even as the eye if it be bent intentively to behold any thing for that present it discerneth nothing els So fareth it with the Soule if she wholy addict her selfe to think on any matter she is amused if it be more them she conceaveth or more fearfull then she well indureth she is amazed or astonished but not of necessity so that she looseth either sense or memorie only for that time she converteth neither to any other obiect Now thus Christ being astonished with sorrows and feare lost not either sense memory or vnderstanding much lesse his vertues and graces being cast into an infernall confusion as you vntruly g Pag. 289. charg me that I say But I say as you say He now on the suddaine might turne neither sense nor memory to any other obiect and so not think on any thing ells but only on this terrible and mighty sorrow feare which now smote him bruized him to pieces And thus
now in Hell seeing you seeme to belieue no torments for Damned soules save only at the Resurrection For thus you reason b Pag. 25 As the Body hath ben the instrument of the Soules pleasure in sinne so it shal be of hir paine c Pag. 20â— But all provocations and pleasures of sinne the soule taketh from her body all acts of sinne she committeth by her body Therefore the iustice of God both temporally and eternally punisheth the Soule only by the Body Or Therefore all the Soules paine for sinne both temporally eternally is by the Body This is your owne reason which being true why should you care for corporall fire in Hell before the last iudgment Your striving to a Pag. 34â— confute my allegations of Fathers I hope I have refuted sufficiently before And then b Pag. 35 Sir Refuter endeth as be began with egregious lyes What lyes began he with and with what doth he end In the begining our lyes have proved tales of truth and in the end your wordes will prove iniurious at least I said that not som or the most or best but even all every one both Churches Writers in the world who are Protestants teach as we do except only your selfe or happily som after you since the year 1597. What ly is there in al this Why name you not in al the world one man of those whom we call Protestants of your minde that it may appeare who deserveth such rebukes Nay in this being the very point of the matter you are silent in revilings outcryes and accusations you exceed Where I avouch that c Treat â— pag 8â— only the hoatest and cunningest Papists Iesuits Priests Fryars have alwayes vntill this day had this controversie with all Protestants and all Protestants against them namely Bellarmin Campian English Rhemists c. To al this scanalous suspicious argument you reply not a syllable What shall we thinke of such doctrine which in this learned age hath none but such defenders And yet among the Papists I noted 2 Cusanus and Ferus as liking of the Protestants doctrine heerein which also they do in some other matters Now these 2. and only these though more there are c you cite at large 〈◊〉 140.141 whose wordes indeede especially the Fryars seeme excessive But our owne most worthy and learned Teachers d M. Fulke â—rea 1. p. 88 M. Deering M. Whitakers which against you I alleaged you vouchsafe not a looke towards them Nor to M. Nowels Catechisme nor to the Synod authorising it â—efore pag. 42. nor to the Archb great * approbation thereof Not to our Common Bibles note authorised publikly to be read thorough out England Only against my alleaging of our Homilyes e you take exception Pag 355. but I trust I have before fully and cleerely defended them to bee for vs and against you Neither doeth any such matter appeare in them as f you avouch Pag. 136. Thus then I end our 1. Question being sorry that I have ben so long But I trust the friendly Reader will pardon me considering how I have ben occasioned therevnto A brief Collection containing the whole effect of our Doctrine before delivered brought into 4. Assertions God himselfe in his Iustice properly punished Christ for our sinnes See pag. 8. 9. 75. 82. Christ even as other men consisted of a perfit Humane immortall Spirit and a mortall living Body and so was by nature capable of suffering sorrows for sinne from Gods hand aswell in his Spirit peculiarly and properly as also in his Soule and Body togeather sith other men do thus suffer for sinne pag. 8. 48 52. 61. 74. Gods exact and immutable Iustice spared his Sonne in nothing but did punish him in all severity as he punisheth sinners I meane Hee punished him in All his partes of nature apt to suffer that is in his Spirit peculiarly and properly and in his Soule and Body togeather also Againe God punished him with all the Whole Generall Curse not with all the particular Curses and punishments with the Generall Curse in all the whole Nature and substance of it not with all the Circumstances with all the meere Paine and Sorrow thereof not with the sinfull Adherents and concomitants in it pag. 8 13 74 86. Gods exact immutable Iustice spared not Christe in these Circumstances of Punishment with he suffered not For either in exact Iustice he could not or necessarily hee needed not to punish him so In exact Iustice he could not punish Christ in such respects as were simply and absolutly impossible It was simply impossible that any touch of Sinne should once come neere his person or Eternall suffering or all the Particular punishments in the world All which come not to any one man though Damned neither can come Finally that Christ should necessarily have suffered after this life or locally in Hell there was no cause seeing these are but meerâ— Circumstances of Gods Iust PunishmeÌ„t of sinne whether now or then whether heere or there These alter not the nature of Gods wrath which is the strength of Hell The whole substance nature of that Punishment he might feele in this life aswell as any parte God is able to inflict it aswel heere as heereafter The rather seeing Christ came and was sent of God Extraordinarily of purpose to suffer for sin all that he might suffer Thus then only in this life Christ might and did suffer all For so was Gods ordinance and will as it is plainly expressed vnto vs in his word Therefore so we professe and so we believe by the certaine rule of Gods word and the proportion of faith Christ shunned for our sake nothing which the Damned suffer except only Circumstances and Accidents impossible or vnnecessary not any Substantiall point of Gods Punishment decreed against sinue pag 13. 14. 16. 43. 66. 75. 87. 134. 135. That Christ after his death on the Crosse went not downe into Hell in his Soule THe 2. part of our Controversie is this That Christ after his death on the Crosse went not downe into Hell in his Soule Where note first Notes that we vnderstand Hell properly and locally as our common speach in English doth vsually take it for the very place of the Damned after this life Now against them that belieue Christes Soule did go down locally into Hell thus I reason Reasons gainst Châ—â— Descendiâ—â— locally is Hell First If there be a good and sound generall reason in Christian faith that Christes Soule leaving his Body ascended vp to Heaven and there remained till his Resurrection and if there be no speciall reason of authority to the contrary that his Soul now descended downward then surely every good Christian ought to believe that his Soule ascended to Heaven and descended not locally into Hell Two maâ—â— points to noted But both those former pointes are most true First There is a good sound generall reason in Christian