from this corruptyble body must nedys haue an infynyte beynge as thou hast proucd in thy seconde dyaloge which must be than infynyte sorowe or infynyte ioy and thaÌ„ as sone as it is separate from the corruptyble body god must than of his iustyce iudge that soule other to the place where is infynyte ioy or to that place where is infinyte sorw accordynge as it hath deserued So thaÌ„ yt shulde seâ—e in vayne to put any purgatory where the soule shulde haue any sorowe y t shuld haue an ende or to put any other place of ioye where the soule shuld haue ioy whyche ioy shulde haue an ende ¶ The solucyon as there be degrees in synne as some synne is more and some lesse so there be degrees in repentauÌ„ce as some may be more and some lesse and also degrees of pardon forgy uenes therfore maÌ„ for lak of sufficieÌ„t repentaunce muste be purged Laput. v. Gyngemyn ¶ To satysfye thy mynde in that poynt thou must consy der that god of his goodnes hathe create the worlde and all thynge therin conteyned in a conuenyent order of degree And thus of all the kynde of thynges that euer god made some be more and some lesse some be small and some smaller As of corporall thynges some be harde some more harde and some be softe and some be more softe some be hote some be more hote and some be colde and some be more cold lyke wyse of thynges incorporall some be great and some be greater As of vertue some is good and some better and of vyce some is euyll some is worse how sayst thou thynkest not thou that this pryncyple is reasonable and trew ¶ Comyngo ¶ I thynke yt is trewe that thou sayst ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ Than thus is not some syn offence that a man coÌ„mytteth somtyme more and somtyme lesse ¶ Comyn ¶ I thynke so Gyn. ¶ And doth not euery offence deserue punyshment ¶ Comyn ¶ yes ¶ Gyng ¶ Than is there no degrees in punyshment as well as there is degrees in synne offence so that some punyshment is more and some is lesse and is there not also degrees in repentaunce and some repentaunce is great some greater and also degrees in forgyuenes pardone as some forgyuenes and pardone great and some greater ¶ Comyn ¶ what than ¶ Gynge ¶ ThaÌ„ ought not euery offence synne be punysshed by y e iustyce of god in order and degree accordyng as it is so y t yf y e offence synne be great it ought to haue a great punyshment and yf it be small it ought to haue smal punyshment ¶ Co. ¶ Iuste ¶ Gyn. ¶ Than I say whaÌ„ that a man here in yerth hath coÌ„mytted a great synne and offence and taken repentauÌ„ce wherby the synne is forgyuen and yet hath not takeÌ„ such sufficient repentaunce therfore nor had any suffycyent punyshment whych shulde make a full payment and satisfaccyoÌ„ for that synne and dyeth before any coÌ„dygne or full satysfaccion made god must nedys than of his ryghteous nes ordeyne a place of purgatory where hys soule shall haue a forther pu nyshment to make a condygne and full satysfaccyoÌ„ for that synne and so to be purged and puryfyed before yt shall be able worthy to be admytted to receyue the eternall ioy in heuen As by example yf a man coÌ„myt a treason agaynste his prynce wherfore he ought by order of the lawe to lese his goodes and to haue imprysonment and also to be put to detche and when he is conuycted there vppon than because he seeyth he can not auoyde from the punyshment of the lawe he is repentaunt and sory for his offence and prayeth hys prynce of forgyuenes yet this repentaunce sorowe that he taketh for his offence 〈◊〉 can neuer be so great but that yet this prynce by iustyce may take his good and inpryson hys body and af ter that put hym to dethe for the sayde offence by order of his lawes do hym iustyce And so at his pleasure execute y e extremyte of hys law wyth out doyng any wronge to hym But yet this prynce may yf he wyl by his mercy pardon his lyfe take hys goodes impryson his body for a tyme and season or as longe as he wyll at hys pleasure and accordyng to the degre and qualyte of the same offence tyll he haue made a full satysfaccyon to hys prynce for that treasoÌ„ done to hym but yet yf y â— prynce shuld punyshe euery offender to thexstremyte of deth wythoute any mercy it shuld seme a thynge so wnyng to cruelte and also clerely agayns y â— prerogatyue of hys mercyfull power and auctoryte And also yf a prynce in suche case shulde forgyue euery suche offender for suche a great offence whyche hath taken but a small repentaunce and soro we therfore it shuld bothe be an example to all suche offenders and to gyue theÌ„ and all other comfort and boldnes to do lyke offences whyche were a thynge y t shulde 〈◊〉 to the subuersyon of his lawe and derogacion of iustyee Therfore yf such a prynce wold be reputed for a dyscret prynce a mercyfull prince he must somtyme forgyue the hole offence and somtyme execute iustyce accordyng to hys lawes and also somtyme pardone parte of the punyshment condigne for the offence and gyue but a temporall punâ—shment for a tyme and season accordynge to the degre and qualyte of the oâ—fence of the repentaunce And so lyke wyse whan that a man hath commytted a synne an offence and taketh some repentaunce therfore but not suffy cyent and than dyeth thaÌ„ god of hys goodnes by y â— order of his iustyce mercy muste somtyme pardone that offence from the eternall deth and yet gyue hym some punyshment which shuld not be to the extremyte as to condemâ—ne hys soule to eternall sorowe and payne but to haue some 〈◊〉 for a tyme and season to puryfye to purge the soule of that offence accordynge to degree and qualyte of the offence for as I sayde before as there is degeees in repentaunce as some is more and some is 〈◊〉 â—o god of hâ—s iustyce must vse degrees in forgyuenes and in pardon so that though he forgyue the eternall payne and sorowe whych is coÌ„dygne for the great offence and synne whych the man dyd coÌ„myt yet it ston deth wyth the great dyscreat wysdom of god to punysh the soule for that offence for a season to puryfye and purge it that yt may be able to be admytted to come to the eternall ioy for the which he was made and create For yf that men coÌ„myttynge dyuers synnes or offences agayns god in dyuers orders and degrees as some more some lesse and dyuers of theÌ„ take repentaunce dyuersly some more and some lesse and than yf god shulde not vse dyuers degrees of forgyuenes and pardon but punysshe euery of them eternally therfore yt shuld sown than to the subuersyon of hys owne
lackynge execucyon of his iustyce whyche can not be for as we haue bothe agreed the mercy of god and the iustice of god be euer correlatyue and must nedys be alwaye concurrant to geder And yet to satysfye thy mynde forther in this poynt thou wylt graunt me that the iustice of god muste gâ—ue to euery creature his owne and not to take awaye froâ—e no creature that thynge whiche is his as by example yf so be that I do bete thy seruaunte whiche is thyne apprentyse or reteyned seruaunt and do 〈◊〉 hym as cut of his hand or hurt some other member of hym wher by thou dost lese his seruyce and also that this seruaunt therby is not ablâ— well durâ—ng his lyfe to get his lyuynge yf so be that thou do forgyue and release to me that offence that I haue done to the for hurtyng of thy 〈◊〉 wherby thou haste loste his seruyce yet not withstandynge thy â—uenes thy release made to me yet I am bounde to make a nother 〈◊〉 to thy seruaunt for the hurte that I haue done to hym which is y â— cause of the hynderauÌ„ce of his lyuyng But yet yf I do the a trespace so y â— no man is hurted by y t trespace but onely thou thy selfe in that case yf thou forgyue me that trespace I am neuer bounde to make other satisfaccioÌ„ to no nother man for y t trespace done only to the. So say I lyke wyse a man maye coÌ„mytte here in erth dyuers synnes some agayns god alone and some both agayns god and his neyghbour as when a man is negligeÌ„t to serue god or proud dysdeynous and vseth slouth or gloteny yet hurteth not his neyghbour Also a man may do some synne whych is bothe agayns god and yet so hurteth his neyghbour as whan I take myne neyghbours good wrongfully or hurte his body In that case yf I take repentaunce for that synne so done by me agayns god my neyghbour though god pardone me for that offence whrche I haue coÌ„mytted both agayns god and also my neyghbour yet god by his iustyce may not clerely release and discharge me without recompence satysfaccion made to my neyghbour therfore for iustice must gyue to euery man his owne ergo than that wronge done to my neyghbour or that thynge by wroÌ„ge take in from my neyghbour muste be restored or some recompence made therfore but yf that repentauÌ„ce which I haue takeÌ„ for that synne done to god and my neyghbour shuld be a clere dyscharge to me without any satysfaccioÌ„ made than my neyghbour in that case shuld not haue his own and so iustyce not mynystred to hym wherfore in that case thoughe god forgyue me yet I am bouÌ„de to make restitucioÌ„ to my neyghbour ¶ Co. ¶ Than I put cause I haue no goodes lest nor other thynge wherwith all to make restytucion or satysfaccyon to my neyghbour but y t I dâ—e be fore any suche satisfaccion made or I put case I haue ynough to make sa tyssaccion to my neyghbour But when I am repentaunt therfore aske forgyuenes of god and yet I am not in wyll to make satysfaccioÌ„ to myn neyghbour what shall be thaÌ„ done now to me by y â— iustice of god ¶ Gyn. ¶ In that laste case whiche thou hast put where thou art not willinge to make satysfaccion to thy neyghbour in that case it appereth thou art not repentaunte for as a payment or redelyuere of the goodes is a satisfaccyon for the goodes wrongefully taken so repentaunce is a satisfaccyon in the mynde wyll for the synne which thou dedest for the synne is euer done with thy wyll than the repentaunce for thy synne to put the synne away must be a coÌ„trary wyll for as thou haddest a wyllwroÌ„gfully to take thy neyghbours goodes so in the repentaunce thou moste haue a wyll to restore theÌ„ whych is a good mynd wyl contrary to y â— other euyll mynde and wyll whych thou haddest in the wroÌ„gfull takyng of theÌ„ so I say it is impossyble for the to haue repeÌ„tauÌ„ce excepte thou haue a wyll to restore to make satysfaccion of the thyng wrongfully taken So then as I sayd to the before syth that god by hys iustyce can not graunt the hys mercy forgyuenes for the synne except thou be repentaunt it foloweth thaÌ„ that thou canst neuer be forgyuen of god excepte thou haue a wyll to make restytucion and satysfaccyon for these wronges done by the to thy neygh bour But to consyder forther in the other case whyche thou dydest put yf thou be repentaunt and askest mercy of god and wyllynge to make satysfaccyon and hast not wherwyth all yet than there is a satysfaccyon be hynde which thou oughtest to do to thy neyghbour and than yf thou dye because thou canst not make a satysfaccyon to hym in yerth by the coÌ„ue nyent iustyce of god thou must make a satysfaccyon to hym in a nother place whyche must nedys be in purgatory by some punyshment whyche thou must suffer therfore ¶ Comyngo ¶ why what is my neyghbour the better for that punyshment that I haue in purgatorye or what restytucyon or satysfaccyon hath he therby ¶ Gyn. ¶ That punyshment whyche thou shalt haue in purgatory therfore shall be to the releasynge of other paynes and punyshmentes that thy neyghbour ought to haue for other offencys whych he hath done agayns god or ellys yt shalbe to the augmeÌ„ tynge of y â— â—oy that he ought to haue for other merytoryous dedes which he hath done for the loue of god and this doth stande wyth conuenyent reason for when thou dost an offence to thy neyghbour there is not only a wyll to do euyll but there is also an â—uyll acte though that â—uyll wyll were dyscharged by an other contrary wyll whiche was that other good wyll whych thou haddest in the tyme of thy repentaunce coÌ„trycyoÌ„ yet y t â—uyll acte is not dyscharged tyll there be an other acte done y t is coÌ„trary to y t acte And all this standeth with y â— iustyce of god y t in the forsayd case that thy neyghbour to whom the wronge was so done must be restored satysfyed because as I shewed the before the iustyce of god is alwaye to gyue euery thynge his owne and than yf thy neyghbour be not satysfyed restored for that wronge done vnto hym than he hath not yet his own and therfore by the order of iustyce he ought to be restored ¶ An obiâ—ccyon that when god forgyueth it nede no satysfaccyon to thy neyghbour because god is very owner of all thy neyghbonr hath no ê“perte but as a seruauÌ„t to god as but to make â— counte to god Caput xiiii COmyngo ¶ That reason me thynketh maketh not agayns mynâ— opynyon nor prouyth not that yf god haue ons forgyuen me y t I ought to make any forther satisfaccion as I shall proue it to the by an euydent example which is this I
and a nother vnpure and vnclene nor y t one soule shulde be fayre pleasauÌ„t and goodly to beholde and a nother to be foule and deformed and vglye nor y t one soule there shuld suffer ioy and a nother to suffer sorow So now it foloweth that when y t a man hath commytted a mortall synne and after taken repentaunce and dyeth by the whych he is heled of that foule infyrmyte but yet the spottys and tokens therof do re mayne for lack of full satysfaccyon god of his iustyce may not condeÌ„pne hys soule to eternall payne in hell for that offence whych is purged put away and the soule therof clerely discharged and made hole and yet god by his iustyce nor by hys dyscrete wysdome goodnes ought not immediatly to receyue that soule in to that clene and most pure place in heuen to accompany wyth those pure auÌ„gelles and sayntes that be there in that place where there can be no thyng but that whych is all puryfyed clene vntyll such tyme that y t soule be clensed and puryfyed of those tokeÌ„s and spottes of synne whych remayne in that soule which tokeÌ„s and spottes is euer a great deformyte to y â— soule as longe as they do therin remayne Therfore by all coÌ„uenyent reason it must nedys folowe that besyde that gloryous and ioyfull place of heuen and also besyde that myserable sorowfull place of hell there muste nedys be a thyrde place of purgacyon where the soule must be puryfyed and made clene of suche spottys and to kens of synne whych remayne in it before that yt shalbe able to be receyued in to that gloryous place in heuen in whyche place there can be nothynge suffered to be but that whyche is all pure and clene wythout any tokens or spottes of synne or vnclennes ¶ An obieccyon that yf there shuld be any place of puâ— gacyon than that place shuld be here in yerth or ellys yf there be any other place where is that place of purgatory Caput x. COmyngo ¶ This is a meruelous sore hye reason that thou haste made but yet me thynketh though that besyde heuen and hell ther shuld be a thyrde place of purgatyon yt shuld seme conuenyeÌ„t that that place shulde be here in yerth and that man whych hath so offended whom god wolde haue to be purged therfore and after that to be receyued and admytted to ioye wyâ—h hym in heuen may be most conuenyent ly purged therof here in yerth and whyle his soule is ioyned with his bo dy because that the soule offendeth beyng with the body therfore it were most conuenient that that soule shuld be purged and punysshed with the body And also because that god hath ordeyned heuen to be a place of infynyte ioye hell to be a place of infynyte payne and yerth to be a place â—yxte somtyme of ioye and somtyme of payne whyche neuer endureth but for a tyme that shall haue an ende Therfore it is most conuenyent y â— the place of purgatorye shulde be here in yerth because it is the place ordeyned for payne whyche shall haue an ende And also that purgatorye punyshment here in yerth shuld be a great good example to all other meÌ„ here lyuynge to put them in fere to do any lyke offence and shulde cause many men the rather to absteyne from the doynge and commyttynge of any such lyke offence and synne ¶ The solucyon that yf god shuld be compelled to make purgatory here in yerth that than god y t is the hye iudge shulde be restrayned from his lyberte and auctoryte more than any other yerthly iudge and also that it is a folysh questyon to aske where purgatory is Caput xi Gynge ¶ That sayenge me semeth is not to be alowed for thy fyrst reason proued not only that there shulde be no purgatory but only here in yerth but that reason proueth as well that there shuld be no ther heuen nor hell but only here in yerth For yf a man haue lyued so vet tuously in yerth wherby he ought to be saued and go to the ioyes of heueÌ„ because he dyd neuer merytoryous acte but only when his soule was ioyned here with the body then he shuld neuer be rewarded therfore but only here in yerth whyle his soule was ioyned wyth the bodye And also euery synue whyche a man coÌ„mytteth is done whyle the soule is ioyned wyth the body ergo than he shulde neuer haue any punyshment therfore but only here in yerth whyle the soule is ioyned wyth the body so that fyrste reason that thou hast made shulde proue that there is nother heuen nor hell prepared for man but here in yerth whych is clere contrary to all the grounde and pryncyples whych thou hast grauÌ„ted to me before And also where thou sayst that of coÌ„uenyence that y â— yf there shulde be any pur gatory the place shuld be no where elles but here in yerth whyle the soule is beynge wyth the body me seâ—eth that therin thou woldest clerely take away the liberte prerogatyue and authorite of god and bynde god to be in more bondage and seruytude than any temporall iudge whyche hath power to gyue sentence here in yerth in any cyuyll or teÌ„porall causys For a iudge here in yerth which by the order of the lawe may gyue sentence iudgement vpon any traytour or felon is not so bounde nor restrayned but that he may iudge hym to be put in execucion in what place that this iudge shall thynke conuenyent and also in what daye and tyme that he wyll Than god myche more by his prerogatyue and authoryte ought to haue lyberte to gyue his iudgemeÌ„t and sentence y t the punyshmeÌ„t whych is condygne for the synne and offence whych a man here in yerth coÌ„mytteth shalbe had in such place where god hym selfe shall thynk moost coÌ„ue nyent other in yerth or in some other place at his pleasure lyberte and in what tyme and season that he shall thynke conuenyent therfore ¶ Comyn ¶ Than I demaunde of the yf purgatory be not here in yerth in what place shuld yt be ¶ Gyng ¶ As to that I say that purgatory is that that is ordeyned to purge meÌ„nes soules when they be separate from the body And a soule whych is no corporall substaunce but a spyrytuall doth occupye no place no more than thy thought or mynde doth whiche occupyeth no place And as touchyng that questyon where and in what place purgatory is me thynketh it is great folyshnes to demaunde that questyon For I may aske the agayne where is heuen whether ouer thy hed as thou standest or elles vnder thy fote or ellys before thy face or elles behynd thy backe or ellys vpon thy ryght hand or vpon thy left hand or elles yf I aske where is the place where the glorious trone of god is or I aske y â— where is the hyest parte of henâ— what thyng is aboue the hyest
to be purged there is y â— place lymytatyue of the soule and there is the purgatorye of that soule For there can be no purgatory but there where the soule is purged and where so euer god doth lymyt y â— soule to be purged there is y â— lymytatyue place of purgatory Also where the vertuous operacyon of god is and where hys vertuouse worke doth appere there is the operatyue place of god and there god hym selfe is in hys place operatyue and therfore because the meruelous operacyon and worke of god appereth in euery place of the worlde therfore god is in euery place and parte of the worlde accordynge as I haue proued to the here before in our fyrst dyaloge And also because that purgatory where meâ—nys soules be purged is that where god worketh hys vertuous operation in execucioÌ„ of his iustyce therfore that purgatory is the very place operatyue of god whych is in no certayne place contynentyue but there where pleaseth god and there in such tyme or tymes where wheÌ„ and how his pleasure is that it shall be Therfore to thy questyon I say y â— pur gatory is no place contynentyue of it selfe because yt conteyneth no reall nor corporall thynges within it because it is ordeyned only for purgyng of soules whych be thynges racyonall and incorporall Nor also purgato ry is within no place contynentyue because it is no suche reall thynge of it selfe that may be perceyued by any of our fyue senses and wyttes ¶ An obieccyon because the mercy of god caÌ„ not be with out his iustyce and remyssyon is incydent to repentauÌ„ce therfore as sone as repentaunce is taken god of his iustyce must gyue remyssyon and therfore there ought to be no purgatory Caput xii COmyngo ¶ Thou arte so subtyll in thy solucyon that I wote not well how to reply vnto the but yet I pray the let me see howe thou canste satysfye my mynde in one poynte Thou dydest proue to me but late in our fyrst dyaloge and dysputacyon that two thynges of neces syte be belongynge and be incydent to the goodnes of god that was iustyce and mercy and that the one can not be wythout the other ¶ Gyng ¶ That is truthe ¶ Comyngo ¶ And the very dyffynycyon of iustyce is thus Iustice is a constant and a perpetuall wyll gyuyng to euery thyng hys owne And mercy is no more but the mynde of a pytefull affecte and meryte is the execucyon of iustyce and remyssyon is y e execucyon of mercy and meryte is alwaye incydent to iustyce so that god by the order of iustice must gyue to euery creature his own meryte accordyng as it doth deserue to haue that is to say for synne and offence to gyue punyshment of payne or sorowe and for vertue to gyue rewarde of ioye or pleasure And that as meryte is of necessyte incydent to the iustyce of god so is re myssyon incydent to the mercy of god so that god can not mynyster hys mercy to no creature without remyssyon And euery synne that is coÌ„myt ted by y â— iustyce of god it must haue punyshmeÌ„t and by the mercy of god remyssyon And as thou dydest grauÌ„t me ere whyle y â— synne is alway put away expelled and destroyed by the only medecyne of repentaunce and than as punyshment by the iustyce of god is incydent to the repentaunce which taketh a way y e synne so as god by y â— order of iustyce ought to gyue punyshment for the synne whyche remayneth so lyke wyse he ought by y â— order of iustyce to gyue remissyon for that medecyn of repentauÌ„ce which hath taken away the synne And because the iustyce of god and the mercy of god be so correlatyue that the one can not be wythout the other than god can neuer mynyster his iustyce wyth hys mercy excepte that he grue remissyon as sone as the repentaunce is taken Therfore yt standeth not only with y â— mercy of god but also wâ—th y â— iustice of god y â— as sone as repeÌ„ taunce is taken that god must gyue remissyon and than whan god hath remytted that synne god hath than fully executed both hys iustyce his mercy but yf he shuld after that gyue a ferther punyshmeÌ„t for that synne so remytted other in purgatory or elles where yt shuld folow then y â— god dâ—de not execute hys iustyce before and so than the mercy of god and the iustyce of god cowde not be correlatyue but that hys mercy myght be w tout hys iustyce whyche is coÌ„trary to that pryncyple that we bothe fyrste agreed that hys iustyce mercy can not be the one wythoute the other therfore yt semeth there ought to be no purgatory ¶ The solucyon yf god shuld gyue full remyssyon for euery synne wythout other satisfaccyon than god shuld my â—ster hys mercy wythout iustyce And as a man may offende to god alone and also to god to hys neyghboure therfore satysfaccyon must be made both to god to hys neyghbour or elles hys neyghbour is not restored to hys owne Caput xiii Gyngemyn ¶ Thou dost ymagyn so many subtyll obteccions in thys mater that I can not well tell howe to satysâ—ye thy mynde but yet thys reason that thou haste laste made dothe make agayns the as me semeth for we bothe agree that the iustyce of god and the mercy of god be euermore correlatyue and concurrant to geder and that god doth neuer punysh any synne but that the punâ—shment is lesse than yt doth deserue and therin he sheweth hys mercy And also god dothe neuer rewarde no creature for any vertue but that his rewarde is greater than he doth dedeserue to haue and therin also god dothe execute hys mercy and dothe gyue remyssyon for his remyssioÌ„ is nothyng elles but a gyft of his grace and goodnes but he neuer gyueth hys remyssyon but for a conuenyent cause whyche is accordynge to hys iustyce because hys iustyce and mercy must euermore go to geder and therfore forgofen in your douch toÌ„ge is a very proper word for remyssyon because it is a gyft for a cawse But than to answere thyne obieccyon I saye yf that god shulde gyue remyssyon for euery synne that is commytted as sone as he hath taken repentaunce therfore without any other satysfaccyon or ferther punyshmeÌ„t to be had therfore thaÌ„ god shuld minyster his mercy without iustyce for by his iustyce he must gyue to euery thing his owne which owne is y e thyng whych it deserueth to haue so that yf the repentaunce whych a man hath taken here for his synne be not suffycyent sorowe to counterpeyle y e pleasure whyche he toke in doynge that synne god must by hys iustyce gyue hym a ferther punyshmeÌ„t whyche must be to suffer payne or sorowe suffy cent to purge hym of y â— synne or elles y â— remyssyon whych god doth gyue for the onely repentaunce of synne shuld be an execucyon of his mercy and
wylt bynde god to be in a maner in bondage to haue lesse liberte auctorite than prynces and kynges haue in thys world for thou knowest well that a prynce or a kyng may by his power remitte ê‘done any traytour mor derer â—rer felon â—in hys realme though he haue deserued therfore to dye 〈◊〉 yet there is no such traytour inâ—rderer nor felon that can coÌ„pell that prynce to pardone hym al though that he aske hym forgyuenes but that that pâ—ynce may execute hys ordynary power vpon hym at hys lyberte to put hym to deth by y â— order of hys lawes or elles to ydone hym of deth â—ue hym some other punyshmeÌ„t for hys offence as prysonmeÌ„t or some other payne by hys dyscrâ—yoÌ„ so thy repentauÌ„ce may be such so great y t god by hys orâ—ynary power maye and wyll forgyue the clerely bothe the synne â— y â— satysfaccioÌ„ therfore it may be so small a repentauÌ„ce that god wyl forgyue the y â— synne and not clerely expulse the out of his fauour but yet wyll that thou shalt haue a forther punyshment to make the as pure and clere as thou wast before and so than able to be receyued in to his fâ— uour and to be pertyner of his glory so these thynges coÌ„sydered it must folowe necessarely that there must nedes be a purgatory ¶ A nother reason for a conclusyon of thys mater I shall shewe the because I can nat tary myche longer wyth the yf thou or ony other shulde hold thys opynyon chat god for a lytyll repentauÌ„ce had be thy for thyne offences and synnes shulde so ê‘done and forgyue the so y t thou shuldest not nede to make any other satysfaccyoÌ„ or restitucyon to thy neyghbour whom thou haste so wronged and after thy dethe thou shuldest haue no nother punyshment in purgatory therfore and to beleue that there is no purgatory ordeyned therfore thys thyng shuld put away y â— drede of god from the most parte of the people in the worlde and gyue them boldnes to do and commytte offences and synnes and yf the people shuld beleue that they neuer neded to make any satysfaccion nor restytucion to theyr neyghbours for the wronges that they haue done to theyr neyghbours and that suche a lyght repentauÌ„ce shuld be suffycyent for ony other satys faccyon to be made yt shulde gyue to the people suche boldnes that they wolde neuer force nor care what wronges eâ—ons theftes roberyesâ— nor morders that they dyd and so in conclusyon shuld destroy all vertue and increase vyce and synne and also vtterly destroy the comen welthe quiete lyuynge of the people ¶ â—go ¶ Thy reasons and solucyon to all my questyons and obieccions be so good that thou hast meruelous well satysfyed my mynde in euery thyng yt shuld seme a great meruel how thou shuldest come to so hye lernynge knowlege saue y t I meruell mych the lesse because I herde the say that thou hast be brought vp some parte of thy youth in crystendome and ben a student in dyuers â—rsytes in crysteÌ„dome where thou saydest thou dydest ierne and rede â—ych phylosophye wherby as I sayd thou hastnow satysfyed my mynde right well and that now I must nedys consente vnto the that there must nedâ— be a purgatory for y â— purgyng of meÌ„nes soules after that they be separat from the body and also by the same last reason whych thou hast shewed yt ê“ueth well that yt shuld be a great folyshnes for y â— people to beleue the contrary therof that is to say y t there shuld be no purgatory for y t folysh beleue shuld be meruelous hurtfull to y â— peple for fyrst as thou saydest it shuld bryng theÌ„ from the drede of god whych drede of god is the begynnyng of all wysdom And we know well y t y â— fraylte of maÌ„kynde is such y â— it is euermore more ê“ne redy to vice thaÌ„ to vertue wherfore maÌ„ hath nede to haue both a brydel of law which is to punysh vyce in this world also a brydell of y â— drede of god whych is a drede to offende for y â— loue of god and a drede to be punysshed in an other world for offence done here in thys transytory lyfe But yf men shulde beleue that there is no purga tory but that immediatly the soule of man for a lytell small repentaunce takeÌ„ shuld go streyght to heuen yt shulde as thou saydest gyue theÌ„ suche a boldnes that many men wold lytell regarde what hurte or wrong they dyd to theyr neyghbours and so shuld be the cause to brynge the peple to lyue to geder contynually in trouble vexacyon vnquietnesse of mynde to the destruccion of theyr own comeÌ„ welth in this world It shuld also cause the vtter losse and dampnacion in hell of many thousand soules be cause they wold euer trust that yf they lyued neuer so vyciously that yet they wolde or they dyed take some repentaunce wherin peraduenturâ— many shuld be deceyued For we se by experyence that there be many pe ple in the worlde whyche dye sodeynly some be sodeynly drowned some sodeynly slaynâ— and some dye sodeynly of some other sekenes peradueÌ„ ture haue no tyme to remember god or thynke of any repentaunce and than yf such people that so dye haue offended god and commytted some great mortall synne for the whyche god by his iustyce must condempne hym to eternall dampnacyon in hell thys boldnes of trust to take repen taunce or ther dye where they be deceyued for lacke of tyme shuld caâ— many thousandes of peple to be eternally dampned in hell And an other thynge yet there is to be consydered whych I haue gederd vpon thy reâ— sons argumentes that yf a man offende and commytte some small venyall synne for the whych god wyll that by hys iustyce he must haue som punyshment therfore but yet not eternall dampnacyon yf such a synnet dye sodenly and before he haue had any tyme to take any repentaunceâ— hys soule as yt is prouyd by all thy forsayd argumeÌ„tys reasons ought neyther immedyatly to come in to y â— gloryous place of heuen because yt is somwhat defouled wyth synne nor also ought not to go to hell to etet nall dampnacy on but by all good order of iustyce must go to a place to be purged there to be made clene that yt may be receyued after that in to the gloryous place of heuen Therfore vpon these reasons whych thou hast shewed these premysses consydered he shall be proued a very stark fole that wyll beleue that there is no purgatory ¶ Gynge ¶ I am very glad now that thy mynde is satysfyed in this mater and therfore now be cause I haue a lytel besynes to do touchyng y â— fete of my marchaundyse I wyll departe byd the farewell ¶ Comyn ¶ Now I thanke the wyth all â—yn hart and I shall loue the whyle