3. N. 96. It is there specified How in the Parliament before one Hugh Staffolk had been accused of divers Extortions and that a Commission was then granted to the Earl of Suffolk and Sir John Cavendish to inquire into it who so had done and had found him guiltless by 18 Enquests which Sir John Cavendish did in that present Parliament witness to be true By all this it appears that the Authority of the House of Peers ends not with the Parliament but their Judgements still continue in full force and power And they may appoint Persons to see them executed if they please And whereas the House of Commons doth not deny them a power of Judicature upon Writs of Error and upon Appeales Will not the same objection lye as well against their Judgements in those Cases For seldome that they be put in execution before the Parliament rise so it takes away their whole Judicature as in truth all the other objections would do could they be made good And whereas it was said That none of the Kings Courts can give remedy where the Kings Writ can not run And where his Majesties Soveraignty doth not come the Jurisdiction of the Peers can have no place It was Answered that there Chiefly the Power of the House of Peers is to give remedy because it only can As for Treasons till the Statutes of 26 H. 8. C. 13.32 H. 8. C. 2. and 5 E. 6. C. 11. which have made them tryable within the Realm and all Misdemeanors committed in Forrein parts which never were nor yet are tryable at the Common Law Of this there are multitudes of Presidents Gomeniz Weston Segrave Hall Richill c. And here within the Kingdome the the Kings Writ doth not originally run in all places as for example in the Counties Palatine yet no man will deny the Authotity of the Lords in Parliament taking place there 9 R. 2. N. 13. The Duke of Lancaster Complaines of Sir John Stanley for not suing out his Livery for the Mannor of Latham in the Dukes Court of Chancery and yet entring upon it They declare his Entry unlawful and Order him to sue out his livery in the Dukes Court. The Kings Writ did not run there but the Authority of the Lords did Another Objection was That all Proceedings ought to be in Latin and nâ— Record to be in English But the Lords had thought That none had ever yet doubted but the House of Peers had been a Court of Record where all the Proceedings Orders Judgements have been in English ever since H. 6â—… time All Acts of Parliament in English All impeachments even those brought up by the House of Commons the Proceedings and the Sentence all in English The Ancient Records were in French and the Pleadings likewise till the Statute of 36 E. 3. Which appoints Pleadings to be in English and to be entred and enrolled in Latin so the Print saith but in Sir Robert Cottons Abridgement of the Records it is observed that the Record it self warrants no such thing Then the Chancery Proceedings are all in English The Pleadings Orders and Decrees Yet it will not be denied but that is a Court of Record Sir Edward Coke who alone is of an other Opinion concerning the Chancery and upon that ground because the Proceeding is in English yet makes the House of Commons it self a Court of Record where every body knowes all is in English Jnst 4. part p. 23. so he doth not sibi constare The last Objection and indeed the the Chief one if true was That it deprives the Subject of the benefit of Magna Charta which will have all men to be tryed by their Peers or by the Law of the Land And the 25 of Ed. 3. C. 4. that none shall be apprehended upon Petition to the King or Counsel and Counsel here they interpreted to be the House of Lords but upon inditement or presentment or by Writ Original And the 42. of E. 3. which is to the same purpose It was urged further that no Writ was ever made returnable Coram Dominis Spiritualibus et Temporalibus And it was said in Regard of the Island being in a Forrein Princes Jurisdiction that it ought to have been done by Act of Parliament for that no Court of his Majestie can give remedy where his Majesties Writ can not run nor can the Jurisdiction of the House of Peers have place there An other observation they had upon Lex Terrae in Magna Charta That in the Arguments of the Kings learned Counsel 3. Car. They made Lex Terrae to be the pleasure of the King And the Lords were desired to consider upon this if by arguing that the Proceedings of their House were maintained to be Secundum Legem Terrae it may not as well be said that Magna Charta will have men to be tryed Per Judicium Parium aut per Legem Terrae That is by the will of the Lords This is the substance of what was most materially urged against the Lords at that Conference Some other things were said rather to entertain the By-standers then for any thing else as the question asked How the Lords should see further beyond sea then other men Indeed the Lords thought they might see as farr as other men and as farr as the Court of Chancery or any other Court but never undertook to see further But they think if some may have their wills they may be laid so low that they shall then see but a very little way but that is not yet And another pretty Dilemma was made which was this Are the Lords bound to recieve all Petitions or not if bound they may refuse none for Magna Charta saith Nulli negabimus and the King is Debitor Justitiae to all his subjects If they be not bound then they must be partial to receive some and dismiss others But this Argumentum bicorne hurts with neither horne For the Lords in these very Presidents brought by the House of Commons in Ed. 1. Ed. 2. time did not deny Justice when they sent the Petitioners unto those several Courts where they should receive it one to the Chancery an other to the Common Law and directed one to bring such an Action another a differing one according to their several Cases And in those multitudes of Presidents brought by the Lords where Causes have been retained and determined in that House they can not justly be charged with Partiality when they are moved thereunto by some thing extraordinary in those Cases which requires their Relief and that it can not be had else where And a Question may be put on the other side whither it can be believed that Partiality was imputed to all the Parliaments heretofore which at their first sitting appointed Committees Tryers of Petitions for England for Ireland for Gascony nay for Flanders where the King had no Dominion and sometimes in general for all places beyond the Seas to examine which were fit to be received
Pasch le Conseil qil moy averont donnez et fray envers vous ceque fere deveray Sir I am your liege man for the Kingdome of Scotland and do pray that as to what you have proposed unto me which concernes the People of my Kingdome as well as my self you will have patience till I can speak with them that I be not surprised for want of Counsel seeing those who are here with me will not nor dare not give me their advice without the rest of the Kingdome And when I shall have advised with them I shall give you for Answer at your first Parliament after Easter that which they shall counsel me and shall do unto you that which I ought to do This request of his did King Edward grant the Record saith Et Dominus Rex habito super hoc Consilio ad Rogatum praedictum praedicti Regis Scotiae et etiam ad Instantiam Procerum et Magnatum de Consilio suo et Gratia sua speciali et similiter de Consensu praedicti Magdulphi concessit ipsi Regi Scotiae supplicationem suam et diem ei dedit ad Parliamentum suum post Pascha viz. in Crastino Sanctae Trinitatis c in omnibus in eodem statu quo nunc Idem dies datus est praefato Magdulpho Et per ipsum dominum Regem dictum est praefato Regi Scotiae et injunctum quod habeat ad praefatum terminum praedicta Brevia quae cognovit se recepisse ut supra dictum est He must not forget to bring the Writs with him 1 R. 2. n. 29. A Scire facias is awarded against the Earl of March to appear before the Lords at the next Parliament and to abide further Order And 2 R. 2. n. 33. the Sheriff of Shropshire makes his return that the same Earl was not found in his Bayliwick it seemes he was dead for there was then an other Scire facias ordered to warne his Son who was then Earl to be and Answer at the next Parliament after 13 R. 2. n. 12. Upon a complaint of the Bishop and Dean and Chapter of Lincolne against the Mayor and Townesmen for some wrongs done them in Execution of their Charter by order of Parliament a Writ was directed to the Mayor and Bayliffs of the Town to appear at a certain day before the Lords with Authority from their commonalty for abiding their Lordships determination they appear but not coming with full Power they are adjudged in Contempt By the same Parliament such a Writ is directed likewise to the Mayor and Bayliffs of Cambridge upon 〈◊〉 Petition and Complaint from the Vice-Chancellor and Scholars and they run the like fortune to be adjudged in Contempt for the like cause So then there are Writs made returnable in Parliament And many other examples may be given and some more will be given in this Discourse and Presidents cited upon other occasions where Writs have been Issued so returnable Which shall be observed as we go along And these few shall in this place suffice to disprove that Assertion Nor indeed was there any thing said on that side that did not receive a full and satisfactory Answer For what was said of an Act of Parliament to give Skinner relief for his Island doth in truth deserve no Answer for it were ridiculous to think an Act of Parliament or any thing else but an Army could put him into Possession of his Island again And it would be altogether useless unto him could he so obtaine it his Plantation there being utterly destroyed and all his goods spoiled and lost both there and at Jamby so as it would be impossible for him to carry on his trade to any advantage Therefore it is Reparation and Satisfaction for his Damage which he must have And that is not the work of an Act of Parliament but of a Court of Judicature That advice then is not to be followed and so we will leave it It now remaines but to set forth the Presidents which the Lords did on their part alledge with some few more Antient ones which shall be added for the Vindicating and Asserting of their Right unto this never before controverted point of their Judicature in all Cases of what nature soever when some thing extraordinary in those Cases did induce them to exercise it Of which they were the sole Judges that being a Trust lodged in them by the very Frame and constitution of the Government In the black Book in the Tower which is Printed by the Name of Placita Parliamentaria 30 E 1. F. 231. is the Case of Sir VVilliam Paynell and Margaret his Wife suing for Dower upon the Lands of John Cameys who had been Margarets former Husband and whom she had left he yet living And they now desiring tobe tryed by their Country upon the point of Adultery and the Lords not allowing of it This hath been at large expressed before therefore I only mention it now In the same Book p. 266.33 Ed. 1. The Case of Nicholas Segrave who was tryed in Parliament for leaving the Kings Army then in Scotland and goeing over into France to fight with one John de Crumbwell upon a falling out between them they being together in the Kings Army This was a case not tryable in VVestminster-Hall nor punishable in any ordinary Court of Justice by the Common Law of England yet the House of Lords could try him and adjudge him worthy of death And one thing more is observable in that Record That a Writ is Issued to the Sheriff of the County to take foure Knights with him and in their presence to Summon Segrave Quod esset Coram Domino Rege in proximo Parliamento suo apud VVestm ad audiendum voluntatem ipsius Regis et ad faciendum et recipiendum ulterius quod Curia Domini Regis consideraret in Praemissis So here is a Writ returnable in Parliament and the Sheriff did accordingly make his returne that he had Summoned and charged him Quod esset coram Domino Rege in isto Parliamento nunc juxta formam et Tenorem Mandati praedicti c. It was therefore a gross mistake to say That never any Writ was made returnable in Parliament as it was likewise one to say That the House of Peers could give no remedy where there was not remedy at Law this President proving the Contrary to both 21. Ed. 1. p. 135 136 c. The Arch-bishop of York is questioned in Parliament for excommunicating the Bishop of Duresme The ground of the Excommunication was For that the Bishop of Duresme had imprisoned two Persons employed by the Arch Bishop to cite the Bishop to appear before him The Arch Bishop appeals Et dicit quod de sententia a Canone lata per ipsum declarata in Curia Domini Regis non debet respondere The House of Lords goes on The other side alleadging That the Bishop in his Temporal Capacity as Count Palatin had committed those men
and it pertained to the King and not to the Arch-Bishop to take cognisance of the Imprisonment if or no it was lawful The Judgement is Videtur Domino Regi in pleno Parlamento praedictis Comitibus Baronibus c. Quod praedictus Archiepiscopus quantum in ipso fuit nitebatur usurpare super Coronam Dignitatem Regiam c. Propter quod per Comites Barones Justiciarios omnes alios de Consilio ipsius Domini Regis unanimiter concordatum est quod praedictus Archiepiscopus committatur Prisonae pro Offensa Transgressione praedictis Et super hoc ante Judicium pronunciatum licet unanimiter de Consilio praedict Magnatum aliorum concordatum fuisset tenendum in hoc Casu similiter in Casibus consimilibus in perpetuum praedictus Archiepiscopus Magnates alios de Consilio ipsius Domini Regis rogavit quod pro eo Dominum Regem requirerent ut ante pronunciationem Judicii ipsum ad gratiam suam admitteret voluntatem suam They interceded for him and he made Fine to the King of 4000 Marks and was received to favour They did not only give a Judgment in this particular Case which being Contra Coronam Dignitatem was tryable in Westminster-hall but they declare it to be a Standing Rule for the Judging of all Cases of like nature which shews the absoluteness of that Power of Judicature which is lodged in that House It was said That the Lords could not take a Cause to themselves per Saltum and before it had passed all the formalities below That a Writ of Error did not lie from the Common Pleas to the Lords House but must first be brought to the Kings Bench And the Case of the Bishop of Norwich was urged 50. Ed. 3. And it is acknowledged The Lords would not receive that Bishops Complaint but sent him away with that Answer nor could they give him any other For Writs of Error have their Walk and their gradual Proceeding chalked out and setled by several Statutes and by the Common Law of the Land But what doth that signifie against the Judicature of the House of Peers No man saith the Lords can either take Cognisance of Causes or judge Causes against the Law of the Land and take them per saltum when the Law prohibits it But they do say and affirm That by all the Examples and Presidents of former times it hath been the usage of that House to receive Complaints and give remedy in all Cases where the Law hath not expresly otherwise determined and if there be any thing in the Case which merits or requires and needs something above the ordinary Power and Proceeding of the Inferior Courts of Justice to administer that Relief which is just and due As in Cases of difficulty where a Court cannot or of delay where it will not proceed the Lords who have a general inspection into the Administration of the Justice of the Kingdom and into the Proceedings of all other Courts have ever upon Application made to them assumed to themselves the Cognisance of such Causes 14. Ed. 3. Sir John Stanton and his Wife had passed a Fine of certain Lands to Thomas Cranthorn who reverts them back and by that means setled them upon the Wife Sir Jeffry Stanton as next Heir brings his Formedon en le descender in the Common Pleas where after some Proceedings upon a Demurrer in Law Sir Jeffry could not get the Judges to proceed to Judgement Upon which he Petitions the King in Parliament which no man will deny to have been in the House of Peers They examine the Matter And afterward order a Writ under the Great Seal containing the whole Matter to be sent to the Judges there willing them thereby if the Matter so stood to proceed to Judgment without delay They not doing it an Alias is sent And the Judges doing nothing then neither and Sir Jeffrey renewing his Petition The Lords commanded the Clerk of the Parliament Sir Thomas de Drayton to go to Sir John Stoner and the rest of the Judges of the Common Pleas and to require them according to the Plea pleaded to proceed to Judgment or else to come into the House with the whole Record so as in Parliament Judgement might be given for one or the other of the Parties The Judges come at the day and the business was heard and it was adjudged That Sir Jeffrey should recover And a Writ under the Great Seal was sent to the Judges to give Judgment accordingly Here then the King in Parliament that is the House of Peers upon a Petition assumes the Cognisance of a Cause depending in the Court of Common Pleas which was so far from having passed all the formalities below that is to say an Appeal to the Kings Bench and Chancery that it was as yet undetermined in the Common Pleas. Nor did it appear unto them upon what ground it was that the Judges gave not Judgment So they might have answered Sir Jeffrey Stantons Petition with saying that they would first see what the Court would determine and what the Kings Bench afterwards But they apply themselves to give him relief And yet no Votes past against that House for so doing as now hath been in the Case of Skinner against this So in the Parliament of 18. E. 1. p. 16. of the Placita Parlamentaria William de Wasthul complains of Matthew del Exchequer for cosening him upon the levying of a Fine before the Judges of the Common Pleas by procuring an Atturney to slip in other Lands unknown to Wasthul and which be intended not to pass in the Fine This is returned back to those Judges because the Fine had been levied before them Et dictum est iisdem Justiciariis quod Recordum istud in Rotulis suis faciant irrotulare tam super Recordo isto quam super aliis ipsum Matthaeum coram eis contingentibus procedant ad Judicium debitum festinum faciant Justitiae Complementum True the House of Lords is not so bound up to forms but that it may when it thinks good vary and retain a Cause at one time which it will not do at any other time Yet we see they were proper Judges in this Cause for they order Wasthulls Complaint and the Proceedings before them to be entred as a Record in the Common Pleas and those Judges to proceed upon it which if they had not had Cognisance of the Matter had been all Coram non Judice and could have signified nothing And I must observe one thing which I think will not be denyed That all those Placita Parlamentaria whatever is said to be done Coram Rege in Parlamento is to be understood of the House of Peers where the King was in those times commonly present and alwayes understood to be there representatively So as his Name was ever mentioned in the Proceedings even when his Person was absent being sometimes out of the Kingdom sometimes detained away
THE GRAND QUESTION Concerning the IVDICATVRE Of the HOVSE of PEERS Stated and Argued And the Case of THOMAS SKINNER Merchant complaining of the East India Company with the proceedings thereupon which gave occasion to that Question faithfully related By a true Well-wisher to the Peace and good Government of the Kingdom and to the Dignity and Authority of Parliaments by Denril Lord Hollis who dyed Feb 17th 1 0 1679 80 Judicium Dominorum Spiritualium TemporaliuÌ„ est SecunduÌ„Vsum Consuetudinem Parlamenti Vsus Consuetudo Parlamenti est Lex Parlamenti Lex Parlamenti est Lex Angliae Lex Angliae est Lex Terrae Lex Terrae est Secundum Magnam Chartam Ergo Judicium Dominorum Spiritualium Temporalium est secundum Magnam Chartam London Printed for Richard Chiswel at the two Angels and Crown in Little Brittain 1669. THE JURISDIC-TION OF THE House of Peers ASSERTED THe Power of the House of Peers in Point of their Judicature having been lately called in question upon occasion of a â—udgement given by them in a particuâ—ar Case which they conceived not â—…yable elsewhere in the Ordinary Course of Law It will not be amiss â—or the removing of all prejudice out of â—…ens minds to make a clear Narrative â—f the matter of Fact with some Observations upon it and the Additions of â—ome Presidents and Arguments Such 〈◊〉 may serve to evince and set forth the ancient way of Proceeding in that House as to their Judicial Capacity even the same which they have continued to practice in succeeding times and so leave it to the Judgement and conscience of every unbiassed indifferent man to satisfie himself If now there hath been any Innovation any new Incrochment of Power any Variation from the constant usage and Priviledge of the Peerage in all times Ancient and Moderne The business was sincerely thus Soon after his Majesties happy Restauration one Thomas Skinner preferred a Petition to him in Council purporting great Oppressions and Spoils Sustained by him in the Indies from the East-India Company robbing him of a ship and goods of a great value dispossessing him of a Plantation he had there a dwelling House ware-House at Iamby and an Iland called Barella which he had bought of that King assaulting his person to the danger of his life and several other Injuries done him For which he prayed the Kings Justice to appoint a Court Constable and Marshall to Heare and Determine those matters they not being otherwise Determinable by the ordinary Course of Law or to put it into any other way for Just Relief After some years Attendance and Sollicitation and several Petitions of this poor mans the King at last referrs it to certain Lords viz. The Lord Arch-Bishop of Canterbury the Lord Chancellor the Lord Privy Seal and the Lord Ashley to call all Parties before them and compose the matter if they could The Order of Reference runs thus Whereas upon the Petition of Thomas Skinner Merchant Setting forth his Sufferings under the barbarous oppressions of the East-India Company His Majesty was Gratiously pleased by Order of the 27. of August last to deferre theclearing of the matter for erecting a Court to determine affaires of this nature till the second meeting of this Board at White-Hall and in regard the said Company have Slighted the Orders of this Board and not complyed with any References or Mediations designing to we are out the Petitioners Life in tedious Attendances He did by his Petition this day read at the Board humbly pray that the said Court may be now Erected to relieve the Petitioner according to Justice put a Period to his grievances Whereupon his Majestie present in Council did Order That his Grace the Lord Arch-Bishop of Canterbury the Lord Chancellor Lord Privy Seal and the Lord Ashley do send for the Governor and some of the Members of the East-India Company to treat with them and to induce them to give the said Mr. Skinner such reasonable satisfaction as may in some measure be answerable to the loss and damage he hath suffered under them Signed John Nicholas These Lords Referrees met took much pains in it spent several dayes Ordered Mr. Ayloff of Counsel with Skinner to give them under his Hand a true State of the business whose report I will here set down in Terminis The Case of Thomas Skinner Merchant and his demands against the East-India Company for damages done him in the year 1659. in India IN the year 1657. was a general Liberty of Trade into the East Indies Then Thomas Skinner furnished and set forth his Ship called the Thomas from London on a trading voyage to the Indies and arrived there in 1658. The Compan by their Letters the 7o. Maij 1658 which arrived in India in November following commanded their Agents to Seize all ships and goods of English trading there and dispose half to the Common-wealth and half to the Company The Agents of Bantam direct those of Iamby to seize the Estate of Frederick Skinner in the hands of Thomas saying Thomas had nothing there of his own and that Thomas Leaver chiefe of Jamby should secure in his hands what Estate he had of Fredericks for a Debt suggested owing by him to the Company upon which pretences they seized Thomas Skinners Ship and Goods broke open his Ware-House assaulted him in his House and dispossest him of his I stand Barella for which Injuries he hopes satisfaction and therefore in particular demands For 128 Peculls of Pepper 24 Peculls of Nutmegs and for Beef strong Waters and other Provisions and Merchandizes taken out of his Ship by the Agents of Jamby and the Crew of the Ship Dragon then in the Companies service Ryals  3355 The Company agree the Value 3160 Ryalls brought to their Account but it being proved That the rest was laden on Board Skinners Ship this imbezlement or subduction by the Agents is just to lie upon the Company  Ryals For his Ship and Furniture sworn by two Witnesses to be worth when set out five or six and twenty thousand pounds sterling and that she was worth as much or more in India when taken yet abate a fist for ware and tare rests 8000. For eleven small Copper Ordnances and their Field Carriages 350 Ryals and two Quoyles of Ropes 80 Ryals in all 0430.  Ryalls For 10 Barrels of English Powder at 25 Ryals per Barrel and Sword Blades Spectacles Prospective Glasses Boxes Knives Cisors and other small Merchandizes Iron Works Nails Pistols Pictures Looking Glasses with Ebony Frames on board Ship-planks and other Wood on shore and in the Ware-House valued by Marmaduke Grimston and Peter de Barrier Purser of the Ship at 1730. For Moneys owing by Thomas Leaver to Frederick Skinner assigned to Thomas and accepted by Leaver with promise to pay but detained by Order of the Company who have in their hands a greater Summe of Leavers to indemnifie them against this Demand 1521. For his Charges at
a desire to relieve them But secondly we must distinguish between a Fact not being a Crime in the eye of the Law which is neither Malum in se nor Malum prohibitum and when the Fact it self being odious and punishable by all Laws of God and Man only a Circumstance as the Place where it was Committe dputs it out of the Power of the ordinary Courts of Justice to take Cognizance of it which are kept to formes and may not trangresse them In the first Case the House of Lords can not punish that for a Crime which the Law doth not make a a Crime but in the second Case God forbid there should be such a failer of Justice in a Kingdome that fellow subjects should robb and worry and destroy one an other though in Forrein parts and there should be no punishment for the wrong doer nor Relief for the party wronged when they come home For then the King might be deprived of many a good subject the Land loose many of her people Trading receive much prejudice and so King and Kingdome suffer great loss and all without remedy But then say the House of Commons Where the Law hath provided and there is an ordinary remedy an extraordinary ought not to be tryed to this the Lords Answer that their House is not an extraordinary remedy but the ordinary remedy in extraordinary Cases and this of Skinners was so both in point of difficulty and point of Compassion And to what is said That it is the Interest of all men in England to be tryed by Juries and there is remedy against willful Juries by Attaint but here is no remedy nor no Appeal It is Answered That the Court of Chancery disposeth of mens Estates without a Jury Every Court of Justice Every Judge in his Circuit sets Fines on mens heads upon several occasions without a Jury Many are tryed for their lives and their Liberties which is more then Estate in the House of Peers upon an impeachment of the House of Commons who are not a Jury nor are sworn therefore that Assertion holds not That all men in all cases are tryed by Juries And for matters of Appeal there doth lye one to the next Parliament or the next Session But it will be said That is to the same Persons And what hopes of any remedy For they wil make good their own Act To this is Answered It is what the Law of the Land hath established We must not be wiser then the Law It is what our Ancestors thought sufficient what hath been the practice of all time And if we leave Posterity in as good a Condition as our Ancestors left us they will have no Cause to Complain Then we must presume that Courts of Justice will do Justice and will do Right that upon better reason shewed upon the Appeal they will alter their minds and give an other Judgement They have done so heretofore How many Judgements of Parliament have been reversed by succeeding Parliaments And where there is Cause for it we must hope they will do so again Then where as it is said That the greatness of the Charge and the Inconveniencies of attending Causes in the Lords House is an Argument against their Judicature They Answer That it is not the House of Lords that appoints such great Fees to Counsel it being left to their Consciences that take them and to the will and discretion of their Clients who give them and who without an Act of Parliament to restraine it may give what they will or rather what they must However The Lords say that the charge in Chancery is greater there having been some times forty fifty Orders made in one Cause and the delay much greater so as some Causes have lasted there very many years And even at the Common Law how many Verdicts have been given in one Cause contrary Verdicts one for the Plaintiff an other for the Defendant Contrary Rules of Court the Judges give a Rule one day and three daies after give an other clean contrary As an Instance of it can be given but of last Trinity Term in the Kings Bench. These are Inconveniences that lye not in the House of Peers But admit there were Inconveniences Many Laws are found inconvenient which yet are put in execution and all obedience given to them whilest they stand unrepealed And the Question is not now of Convenient or Inconvenient but matter of Right Is it the Right of the House of Peers hath it still been the Custome and Usage of Parliaments and consequently the Law of Parliament that they should exercise such a Power of Judicature If it be so as it is and will be sufficiently proved then the point of Conveniency or Inconveniency is out of doors Well may it be a motive to alter it by the Law But we will play with them at their own Weapon and joyn Issue upon that point that the Inconveniency is but imaginary and so farr from an Inconvenience that it is the great advantage of the subject that it should be so As well to give relief in Cases otherwise unrelievable as to assist and help on the administration of Justice when sometimes the greatness and power of some persons would else bear down or much obstruct and hinder the Proceedings of Inferior Courts An objection also was raised How shall the Lords Judgements be executed after the Rising of the Parliament For so the subject may be deceived And when he thinks that with much Charge he hath made an end of his business he is never the nearer And it is Answered that the House of Peers is not as the House of Commons whose Orders are only of force whilest they are sitting they have power sufficient to require Obedience to their Judgements Nor hath it been knowen that ever any Judgement of the House of Peers was not submitted unto and obeyed till now in this Case of Skinners that the East-India Company stands out in defiance and refuseth all Obedience to it In 15 R. 2. N. 17. in the Case of the Abbot of St Oseches complaining against John Rokell for divers Embraceries and for not obeying an Order of the Duke of Lancasters made therein the Lords Confirme that Order and charge the Lord Chancellor to see Rokell perform it Why may not the Lords do the same still if they doubt of Obedience to their Orders But there was never question made of it before And there are many Presidents of Orders given to persons to act some thing in the Intervalls of Parliaments to give an account of it to the Lords at the next ensueing Parliament which shewes that their Authority stil continues to empower those persons to act and to execute their Orders even when the Parliament is risen 15 E. 3. N. 48. The Bishops of Duresme and Salisbury the Earl of Northamton Warwick Arundell and Salisbury are appointed to take the Answer of the Archbishop of Canterbury and to report it to the next Parliament And 51 E.
which they look'd upon as deeply trenching upon the Priviledges of their House all Judgments properly and solely belonging to them Thereupon they sent a Message to the House of Commons and desired a Conference At which Conference the Commons confessed That out of their Zeal they had censured Flood But they left him now to their Lordships and hoped their Lordships would censure him In order to which they sent up a Trunk of Writings concerning his Case Then the Lords proceeded to the hearing of it examined several Witnesses and heard all Flood could say for himself which done they adjudged him Not to bear longer the Arms of a Gentleman To ride with his face to the Horse tayl to stand upon the Pillory with his Ears nailed to be whipped at a Carts tayl to be fined Five thousand pounds and to be imprisoned in Newgate during life 21. Jac. Thomas Morley was convented before the Lords for delivering a Scandalous Petition to the House of Commons as himself affirmed against the Lord-Keeper Coventry Upon examination it appeared that it had not been presented to the House of Commons only to their Committee of Grievances that he had published very many Copies of it even since his being convented before their Lordships They adjudge him to be imprisoned in the Fleet to pay 1000 l Fine to stand with his neck in the Pillory to make his Submission and Acknowledgment at the Barr. 22 Jac. Mary Brocas petitioned the Lords to be relieved for a Debt of 1000 l due unto her by Bond from the Muscovia Company Upon hearing both sides their Lordships order the Company to pay the Debt with 5 l per cent Interest out of the Leviations which the said Company had made among themselves for the payment of their Debts The same Parliament May 28. Thomas Pynckney petitions the House in the behalf of himself and other Creditors of Sir John Kennedy to be relieved for Debts owing to them from Sir John by the sale of Barn-Elms Lands in the possession of his Heir John Kennedy The Lords upon examination of the business find cause and so they order it That Barn Elms should be sold to the best value and the Profits to be sequestred in the mean time into indifferent hands And that a Recognizance of 2000 l in which Pinckney stood bound in Chancery should be withdrawn and cancelled The same Parliament again Grizell Rogers Widow petitions the Lords for the setling her Title to certain Lands in Heygrove in the County of Somerset and for quieting and ending divers Suits and Differences between her and Sir Arthur Ingram Sir William Whitmore c. They order her Satisfaction out of particular Lands And all Suits to cease between them And appointed Releases of all differences on both sides to be drawn and sealed 4. Car. 31. Jan. The Lords Committees for Petitions make report to the House of a Petition of Benjamin Crokey against John Smith in behalf of a Grammar-School at Wotton-Underedge in the County of Glocester which School was endowed with great Possessions by the Widow of the Lord Berkly in Richard the 2 ds time which were now much abated and brought to an undervalue by the cunning practices of the said Smith Upon which the Lords awarded a Commission to issue out of the Chancery to survey all the said Lands And ordered also a special Habeas Corpus to be directed to the Warden of the Fleet where Crokey was a Prisoner to bring the Body of the said Crokey before the Lord-Keeper to the intent he might attend the said Commission And ordered further That if Crokey did make it appear the value of the Lands to be so as be said and that to be approved by the Lords Committees for Petitions then Smith to repay to the said Crokey such Charges as he shall disburse in the Prosecution In the Parliament of 1640 Decemb. 16. Upon report from the Lords Committees for Petitions That Mistris James complained against Sir Edmond Sawyer for sheltring himself under a Royal Protection which he had procured by which means she could not sue him upon a Bond of 500 l for so much Money borrowed of her and two years Interest and so was debarred from helping her self by any Legal course The Lords ordered that the said Mris James should proceed against the said Sir Edmond Sawyer for the recovering of her Debt in any Court where she thought best notwithstanding his Protection December 21. The Lords Committees report a Petition of Katherine Hadley complaining that she had been kept a long time a Prisoner in the Common-Gaol in the Old Bridewell without any cause shewn the Lords ordered her Release The 22th of Decemb. Upon a Report from the Lords Committees of Sir Robert Howard's Case complaining that he had been committed Close-Prisoner to the Fleet by the High Commission Court and kept there three months till he was fain for his enlargement to enter into several Bonds with Sureties in the sum of 3500 l For which he desired Reparations and his Bonds to be cancelled The parties interessed were summoned and heard And after due consideration the Lords ordered a thousand pound damages to Sir Robert Howard of which 500 l to be paid by the Archbishop of Canterbury 250 l by Sir Hen. Martin and 250 l by Sir John Lambe the Bonds to be forthwith cancelled and delivered to Sir Robert Howard The 23d of Decemb. They reported the Case of William Dudley that he having arrested the Lord Wentworth son to the Earl of Cleveland for a Debt of 400 l entred a Caution in Mr. Justice Bartley's Chamber for good Bayl to be taken yet Justice Bartley had released the said Lo. Wentworth upon such Bayl as the said Dudley was utterly disabled to recover his debt Justice Bartley being called made no good Answer thereunto The Lords thereupon order that the said Justice Bertley should forthwith assure unto the said Dudley his House and Land near Barnet for securing the said Debt with Interest and Damages The same day they report likewise the Case of Mris Mary Stanhope Widow daughter-in-Daughter-in-law to the Earl of Chesterfield complaining that the said Earle refused to assure unto her 40 l per Annum during her Widowhood according to a former Agreement made between them which appeared to be true by a Letter produced under the Earl's hand And his counsel being heard and no good cause shewn why the Petitioner should not be relieved The Lords ordered the Earl of Chesterfield forthwith to assure to the said Mris Mary Stanhope his Daughter-in-law 40 l per Annum during her Widdowhood and to pay unto her such money as was in arrear of the 40 l per Annum due to her for the space of two years The 30th of December the Lords Committees for examining Abuses in Courts of Justice report the Complainâ—… of John Turner a Prisoner in the Gate-house committed thither by the High-Commission Court where he had lain fourteen years for refusing to take the Oath Ex
any body else perhaps I say even some of them should they prevail now may hereafter repent it and wish they had not removed an Ancient Land Mark which heretofore was in Veneration and looked upon as that which bounds both power and Liberty and is a guard to both by keeping both within their due limits and hath ever been held most necessary to the Constitution the Government of this Kingdome for the Preservation of it and as servicable to Monarchy for the keeping up of Regal Dignity and Authority as usefull to the subject for the maintaining of his just Liberty and Freedome But let us go on with the Conference and see what was said by the Lords to the Presidents cited by the Commons To the first of John de Insula against the Bishop of Winchester the Lords said it was no dismission of the Bishop for want of Jurisdiction for then it would not have been said Eat inde ad praesens but rather ad perpetuum This is but a Temporary dismission no more but as if they had said Well the Bishop saith he was seised of that advowson in Right of his Church Let the King for whom John de Insula prosecutes take his Writ out of the Chancery and try for that And for the Ejection Complained of let that be tryed by a Jury of the Country and see if things can be so ended If not come again then and we will hear you But for the Present we dismiss you So the Lords concluded That this President made nothing against their Jurisdiction To the 2d of Hugh de Louther and the Heire of Edelyngthorp upon which the Commons did so much insist and particularly upon the expression Nec est Juri Consonum nec hactenus in ista Curia usitatum c. The Lords said That neither this President well examined would make much against them For that Adam concerning whom and upon whose occasion that was said was not at all before the Lords as a Partie in the Cause before them but came in of himself unsent for unlooked for layes in a claime which the Lords of that Parliament had not heard of before nor did at all then question So as it cannot be said that there was any dismission of him or of his business But the Lords say Let him pursue and recover his Land by a Writ out of the Chancery if he will and that he sees it convenient for him si sibi Viderit expedire and they go on to determine the business which was before them The Case was thus Thomas de Normanvil an Escheator had order concerning Hugh de Louther for certain Lands then in his Possession which had been seised into the Kings hands as held of him in Capite formerly by Henry de Edelyngthorp to whom one Eston had granted them and to the Heirs of his body lawfully begotten and having none to returne to Eston under whom now Louther claimed The order was That Louther should give Pledge to come and Answer at that Parliament for the profits of those Lands to the King Louther comes as he was bound and at the same time one Adam comes also pretends himself to be Son and Heire to Edelyngthorp and demands the Land Louther said he is a Bastard and the Lands belong not to him And the Lords they say they have nothing to do with him let him sue for his Land where he thinks best and so send him away But Louther they adjudge to do his homage and to be Answerable to the King for the Rent And for the Title of the Land What do they do they let it alone and meddle no more with it as a thing not at all within their Cognizance or Jurisdistion Nothing less They Command the Escheator Normanvil to make enquiry upon Oath if Edelyngthorp had any Heire lawfully begotten who he was and upon what Title he claimed and to give on account of it at the next Parliament Ita quod idem Escaetor ad proximum Parlamentum post Festum Sancti Michaelis Domino Regi distinctè et apertè inde respondeat So as the Lords then were farr from thinking they must not meddle with such things And for that expression of Non est consonum c. rendred as the ground of that Judgment of dismission First it is answered it was no Judgment at all not only of dismission for Adam was no party in the Cause Then it is no part of the Judgment if there were a Judgment but precedes it The Judgment such as it is or rather the Answer to Adams demand followes in these words Dictum est praedicto Adae quod sibi perquirat per Breve de Cancellaria si sibi viderit expedire So as the preceding words may perhaps have been but inserted by the Clerk that entred the Order But take it at the strongest Admit that the Lords then present in the House had inserted those words as their sence at that time Is that binding to the House that it may not be of an other opinion at an other time In that very Parliament of 18 E. 1. How many times have they been of an other mind How many examples are there of Particular Causes Judged and determined by them And shall one Swallow make a Summer one single President overballance multitudes of Presidents to the Contrary In the last place it was said That this President did not Quadrare sure with this present Case of Skinners fort at was meerely concerning a Liberum Tenementum and within the Realm where the Law had free Course here is Rapine Oppression Spoiling of goods dispossessing one of an Island in Fortein parts extra potestatem Legis assaulting the Person of a fellow Subject a violent Interruption of the trade and commerce of the Nation Which concernes the Government of the Kingdome is a matter of State and highly entrenches upon the Authority of the King which will suffer much if he suffer one subject to exercise a Tyrannicall Dominion over an other though in an other Country And is against the profit of the King which is much concerned That no violence be used in the management of trade to bring a Scandal upon the Nation make it stinke in Forrein parts that none will have to do with us which must needs become the ruine of our trade and so of all His Customes If one Merchant do that which is prejudicial to an other or to a Company let them Complain of him to the King who will command him home and punish him And if he will not come for that may be objected being so farr off out of reach then the King will give them leave that are wronged and grieved by him to right themselves But that they should do it of themselves and in their own Case be Judges Witnesses and Executioners against all reason and Justice So the Lords were not at all convinced with this President neither but still thought they had done very well in Censuring the East-India Company for
Chanceler e ceux Ke tuchent Justices v ley veynent a Justices e ceux Ke tuchent Juerie veynent a Justices de le Juerie Et si les besoings seent si grans v si de graces Ke le Chanceler e ces autres ne le pussent fere sans le Rey dunk Ils les porterunt par lur meins de meine devant le Roy pur saver ent sa volentè Ensique nulle Peticion ne veigne devant le Roy e son Conseil fo rs par les majns des avaunt ditz Chanceler e les autres Chef Ministres Ensike le Rey e sun Consail pussent Sanz charge de autre busoignes entendre a grosses busoignes de sun Reaume e de ses Foreines Terres Thus in English In regard the People who come to the Kings Parliament are oft delayed and disturbed to the great grievance of themselves and of the Court by the multitude of Petitions exhibited before the King of which most could be dispatched by the Chancellor and Justices It is provided That all Petitions that concerne the Seal shall come first to the Chancellor and those that concerne the Exchequer to the Exchequer and those that concerne the Justices or the Law shall come to the Justices and those that concerne the Jewes to the Justices appointed for the Jewes And if the businesses be so great or so of Grace as the Chancellor and the rest can not end them without the King then they shall with their own hands bring them before the King to know his pleasure therein So as no Petition shall come to the King and his Counsel but brought by the Chancellor and those Chiefe Ministers that so the King and his Counsel may without the trouble of other busines attend the great businesses of his Kingdome and of his forrein Dominions This is the Order in which two reasons are expressed for their not receiving particular Petitions one in the beginning the other in the end First the ease of the Petitioners and of the House it self which for their multitudes could not give every one his dispatch and secondly that freed of them it might attend the Publick business of the Kingdome Not for want of Jurisdiction And yet be all manner of businesses so put by No! Great ones and such as need grace and favor are still reserved But take it at the strongest admit they had put all out of their own power yet it will be granted they had power till they did in this manner divest themselves of it It appears they had by the Order it self which mentions such multitudes of Petitions I then aske if such resolution of the House at that time could be binding to perpetuity The Houses of Parliament we know are masters of their own Orders and themselves when they please alter the Orders they have made much less then be they binding to succeeding Parliaments And it is obvious to every man who will either look into the Records of Ancient Parliaments or will but recollect his Memory and call to mind what hath passed in our late Parliaments that in all times the House of Peers hath acted contrary to this Order Taking Cognizanceeven of smaller matters which the ordinary Courts of Justice do every day dispatch And no House of Peers did ever do it less then this which in truth hath not done it at all though it be now so quarrelled with for having relieved one poor man from the oppression of the mighty when no inferior Court could do it And this too the only Cause of this Nature that they have medled with during this whole Parliament which hath lasted so many years and hath had so many Sessions And a Cause particularly recommended unto them by the King who is the Fountaine of all Justice not one taken up by themselves which makes not their Case the worse as it may well be hoped But suppose there had been no Reservation at all in that Order of 8 E. 1. of any Cause or any business but that the King and Lords had at that time bound up themselves absolutely from medling with any of those Petitioners Cases and for the Present waved the exercise of their Jurisdiction in all such matters had this been a Renouncing of their Jurisdiction and quitting it for ever No Court but may upon some particular occasion suspende and wave it's Jurisdiction it doth not therefore follow that it must never make use of it again The Court of Chancery doth sometimes appoint a Tryall at Law of points in a Cause which it might have determined it self if it had pleased And at an other time it will determine things of the same nature The House of Peers may do the same and wave their Jurisdiction when they please It did it 13 R. 2. N. 10. in Changeours Case Adam Changeour So is his Name in the Record though the Exact Abridgement call him John petitions the King and Lords against Sir Robert Knolls Setts forth how owing 2000 l to Sir Robert and his Wife Constance he had let him have Lands to receive the Rent till he was Satisfied his debt That Sir Robert had received more then his money due yet kept the Land so prayes remedy The Answer is indorsed upon the Petition Let a Writ be directed to Sir Robert Knolls to appear in Parliament the Friday after Candlemas next to Answer the things contained in the Petition Upon hearing the business the Lords leave it to be tryed at the Common Law This seemes a stronger President for trying all at Law and not in Parliament then any which the Gentlemen of the House of Commons urged at the Conference For here was an absolute dismission of the Cause and not ad praesens only as was in their Presidents But I believe such wise and knowing men could not but see that this President would not so much have helpt one way as done prejudice to their Case an other way The Prejudice it would have done had been this that themselves by their own shewing had overthrown one of their maine Arguments which was That all Proceedings in cases of Freehold should be by the Kings Writ and that no Writ was ever made Returnble Coram Dominis Spiritualibus et Temporalibus Whereas here had been in their own President mention of a Writ returnable in Parliament which is Tantamount and signifies the same thing But I have in this Discourse given Examples of several others in the same kind where Writs are issued by Order of Parliament returnable in Parliament and many more there are if it were necessary and worth the trouble to set them down And then what had they gotten by telling us That the Lords once would not retaine a Cause which was tryable at Law and would for once wave their Jurisdiction in such Matters When it was shewed to them by multitudes of Presidents That the Lords had most frequently done otherwise at other times in Cases of the same Nature And Presidents in the Affirmative are those that prove
a jurisdiction especially when many in number are produced and some of all times and in every Kings Reign of which the Records can be had which shewes a Continuance of and so an unquestionable Right to such a power One or two or twenty then in the Negative that the Lords did not do so in such and such Cases Nay I say more were the Number equall as many in the Negative as in the Affirmative yet it could not disprove their Jurisdiction It would only shew that their Lordships were free Agents to do it or not do it as they saw Cause But their Jurisdict on remained still enure to do it whensoever they would And when all is done I may say all this is Nihil ad rem and concernes not the point in question which is If the Lords have done well or ill in relieving Skinner against the East-India Company for he was not relievable aâ— the Common Law as hath been shewed And if he had not been relieved there had been a failer of Justice So as there was a necessity of their Lordships acting in that particular to keep up the publick Justice of the Kingdome And all Presidents and all that can be said and urged to shew that the House of Peers ought not to meddle with matters determinable at Law are in truth out of doors and can not concerne this House of Peers which never did it but the contrary For whensoever it appeared that any business before them was proper to be tryed at Law they presently dismissed it Yet since their Right is questioned they must defend it though they gave no Occasion for it having not at all put that Right in execution nor as it may well be presumed by their proceeding hereto ever intending it As to the 6 other Presidents oâ— Petitions Answered in the Parliament of the 14 of E. 2. which the Gentlemen of the House of Commons themselves seemed not to lay so much weight upon The Lords thought they did wisely in it for they were not such as would bear weight to build upon The Lords of that Parliament according to the several natures of the businesses Petitioned for dismissed the Petitioners with several directions Which shewes they took Cognizance of those matters One was directed to take out his Writ novaedisseisinae and an other to bring his action of Trespass the third they send to the Common Law the fourth into the Chancery the fifth they Order to bring his action of debt the sixth who complained of several things to him they gave particular Answers and particular Directions to every point One of which they said pertained not to the King that is to his Laws so they could give no Order in it it was concerning the Resignation of a living which was to be tryed by the Laws of the Church For the other points they disposed them into their proper Channells Was this to be done by a Court that had no Jurisdiction in these matters No rational man can think so But it would be considered that in this Case of Skinners the Lords could give none of those Answers neither sibi perquir at per Breve de Cancellaria not Sequatur ad Legem Communem or tobring this or the other Action For neither Law nor Equity in the Ordinary way of the Inferior Courts could relieve him for the loss of his real Estate in the Indies the Judges said he was not relievable for his House and Island So as none of those Presidents are applicable to the point in question Not that the Law even in the ordinary execution of it provides not for the punishment of all Crimes It declares against and condemns the Fact but can not reach the person to punish him when he hath committed that Fact in a Forrein Country Ubi lex Angliae non currit And the House of Peers hath but helpt the Law to inflict such punishment upon Offenders as by the Law was due to them which otherwise they had escaped And were it but this it sufficiently justifies the Proceedings of the Lords in that particular Case Then as to the Jurisdiction of that House in the generall it will be made as apparent as the Sun at Noone how they have in all times exercised it to the relief of all persons who stood in need of their relief even for things done within the Kingdome Where the Law had provided a remedy they applyed it Some times themselves would take the pains in Cases that deserved it where there was some thing extraordinary to move them to it and when they were at leisure from the more weighty and important Affaires of the Kingdom Some times they would send it down to the Inferior Courts to do it for them and give them Authority for it which they could not have done if they had not had it themselves for Nemo dat id quod non habet as in the Case of certaine Rioters 11 H. 4. N. 38. in the Exact Abridgement Whom they turned over to the Kings Bench and gave those Judges Authority to the end the busines where the Law had not provided there they would not meddle themselves and declared it so That none else neither should presume to meddle As upon the Petition of Martin Chamberlain in that 14 E. 2. p. 409. Who upon the suppression of the Knights Templers desired to be put into the possession of a mannor which the Templers whilest they stood had held of him The Answer is Quod non est Lex ordinata there was no Law ordained in the Case And because the Law had not determined how those Lands should be disposed of the Lords would say nothing to it But will it not be said that this makes good what the Commons objected against the Lords retaining this Cause of Skinners because some parts of it were not determinable in Westminster-Hall Whereas there being no Law concerning those points till there had been one made their Lordships should not have meddled with them As the Lords in that Parliament of E. 2. would do nothing in Chamberlains Case because the Law had not provided for it And as in those two Cases mentioned by the House of Commons That of an Inheritrix Forfeiting by her husbands default where as the Statute of Westminster the second expressed it a Durum est was in the Case And that of the Hospitall of St. Leonards 2 H. 6. N. 37. which had a clear Right to a Corn Rent Yet the Lords could not relieve them but both were faine to have Acts of Parliament This receives a twofold Answer One That there are other Motives in this Case to make the Lords retain it and give Skinner Relief Here is a poor man oppressed by a rich Company with whom he was no waies able to wage Law And that Consideration hath in all times prevailed with that House which is composed of Persons of generous and noble Spirits who can not see poor men oppressed without feeling in their hearts an Inclination and
which not And those Parliaments that the Modus Parliamenti speakes of when a little before the rising of the Parliament Proclamation was made in Publick places to know if any had business to the Parliament if any had Petitioned the Parliament their Petition had not been answered Certainly those Parliaments then did not apprehend to be reproached either with Partiality or deniall of Justice And I would aske this further If they can think that such a Committee of Tryers would have rejected Skinners Petition and have said The Lords can take no Cognizance of your business because it is concerning things done beyond Sea when themselves were a Committee appointed only for such businesses But to let these Sarcasmes pass and see rather what was said and may be said to the more solid objections concerning Magna Charta and those other Statutes which they will have to condemne the Proceedings of the Lords First it may be observed as a thing very strange that in above 400 years since Magna Charta was first made a Law it was never till now found out that the Lords had broken that Law by the exercise of this Jurisdiction nor were they ever charged with it before But besides do they by this any more break it then the Court of Chancery which by a Decree disposes of a mans Lands or the Court of the Constable and Marshall which takes away a mans life or any other Court where the Judge for a Contempt presently sends a man to Prison or claps a Fine on his head so takes both person and Estate or the same House of Lords when it Commits a man upon an Impeachment of the House of Commons Judges and Condemnes him Here is no Judicium Parium that is most certain nor Lex Terrae if you take it for an Original Writ And yet no man will say any of this is contrary to Magna Charta Why then may not the Proceedings of the House of Peers when it punisheth a man for robbing and assaulting his fellow subject in as strange Country which puts the busines out of the Cognizance of the ordinary Courts of Justice receive as favourable a Construction It can not be said that the House of Commons by their taking Cognizance of a Fact by their previous examination of it and declaration upon it giving it the Denomination of Treason or of any other lesser Crime can create a Jurisdiction in the House of Peers which it had not before and give it new power and Authority to pass a condemnation upon the guilty Person yet is it the Ordinary practice of the House of Commons who have a Grand Committee of Grievances for that purpose to impeach men so before the Lords They could receive not long since a Petition of one Taylor complaining against the Lord Mordant for oppression and falss imprisonment and the injurious taking away of an Office from him at Windsor All which were properly tryable in Westminster-Hall yet they could bring this up to the Lords and crave Reparations and Damages in the Name of the Commons of England And the Lords must not though at the Kings recommendation receive a Petition from Skinner and give him relief for his whole Estate by violence and with a strong hand taken from him part at Sea part upon Land in a strange Country in neither of which the Courts of Westminister can afford him any help For this must be against Magna Charta So rather then the Lords shall do it this must be a Failer of Justice in the Land the King shall not be able to protect his subjects the oppressor shall go free and the cry of the oppressed shall go up to heaven for Judgment upon the Land because he finds not Justice in it for his Relief But I remember what the Gentlemen of the House of Commons said at the Conference That therefore the Lords should not have given Relief in this Case because there was no remedy at all at Law This Objection hath been already answered therefore I shall not repeat it here only use one Argument more ad hominum that they forget what themselves have done this very Parliament entertaining a Complaint of one Farmer against the Lord Willoughby who is since dead for dispossessing him of his Estate and other wrongs done him in the Barbadoes which could not be tryed in Westminster-Hall which yet they were preparing to bring up to the Lords by way of Impeachment if the Lord Willoughby had not dyed And there is reason to believe that if Skinner had in the like manner applied himself to them there had been no breach of Magna Charta nor no exceptions taken at the great charge of the Subject appealing to the House of Commons and prosecution there though the charge be every whit as great and becomes much greater to the party that prosecutes for when he hath done there then he must begin again in the House of Lords so the charge is double and the Judgement when it comes is never a whit more in Latin to make it a Record then if the business had begun first in the Lords House as much is it without Jury or Appeal and no less danger of the non-execution of the Judgement after the rising of the Parliament In Fine all that is said against the Lords Proceedings now might as well be said against them then And to say the truth if it be well considered it wil be found that the consequence of this opposition should it work it's effect and prevail would be the overturning of the very foundation of all Authority of Parliament that it might then well be said of the whole Parliament that it did sit only to make Laws and give Subsidies But all this proves not the exercise of the Lords Judicature to be warranted by Magna Charta it only saith that other Courts and the House of Commons it self do as bad Which is no Justification of the Lords For to erre with Company is not to be free from fault Let us then see what may be said to clear them all but principally and Chiefly this Judicature of the House of Peers which is the mark shot at And to do this we must examine the Disjunctive proposition in Magna Charta which saith that every man shal be tryed Per Legale Judicium Parium suorum vel per Legem Terrae For if the Lords judge by either of these they are well enough And Sir Ed. Coke shall determine the question whom no man can suspect of partiality for the House of Lords He tells us in his 2. Inst F. 51. That Lex Terrae is Lex Angliae not Voluntas Regis as the Commons said the Kings Counsel would have it to be 3 Car. And less voluntas Dominorum Fot it is not in an arbitrary way the Lords proceed but according to the Law of the Land to punish nothing but what the Law makes punishable and Judge every thing according to Right secundum aequum et bonum So