Selected quad for the lemma: justice_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
justice_n	bench_n	common_a	king_n	3,582	5	3.6483	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A26173	Jus Anglorum ab antiquo, or, A confutation of an impotent libel against the government by king, lords, and commons under pretence of answering Mr. Petyt, and the author of Jani Anglorum facies nova : with a speech, according to the answerer's principles, made for the Parliament at Oxford.	Atwood, William, d. 1705?; Brady, Robert, 1627?-1700. Full and clear answer to a book.; Petyt, William, 1636-1707. Antient right of the Commons of England asserted.; Atwood, William, d. 1705? Jani Anglorum facies nova.	1681 (1681)	Wing A4175; ESTC R9859	138,988	352

of granting Aid and Escuage which onely is mentioned in that part of the Charter which relates to the Curia whether ordinary or extraordinary I say continued to the 34. th of Ed. 1. at least Jan. c. p. 192. of Right it should unless swallow'd up in Parliaments But whenever the Court which granted such Aid as the Charter means ceas'd to be held pro more thrice a year it ceas'd to be an ordinary Curia This might have been either by the pleasure of the King who needed not to summon his Tenants but when he pleased Or else it might have been in the 49th of Henry the Third Against Mr. Petyt p. 110. when our Author says there was a new Government I agree with him that the King 's ordinary Court continued in the several Kings Reigns Against Ian. c. p. 53. in all its branches and divisions and derivative Jurisdictions and yet not the same any more than a man is the same with his Executor that represents his Person and is the same in Law The House of Lords had the Jurisdiction of the ordinary Curia most properly being as he himself yields 't was ex ta●tâ multitudine of men holding in Capite that some had the special Writs which made them of the upper House and coming in the Degree and Circumstances of Tenants in Chief they had the same Power The Justices and Officers that were not Tenants in Chief must needs have been but Assistants in the Ordinary Curia as they have ever been in the House of Lords and the inferiour Tenants without doubt were to serve on Juries as the Knights were Jurors in Berklay's Case before the House of Lords nor do I find that these inferiour Tenants had any other Power or Interest except that of giving Taxes which is the only Power which our Author seems to yield to the greatest Council The Power of the Justices Itenerant or of them that were setled at Westminster-hall was derived from the King and his Curia either ordinary or when it cas'd to be ordinary yet in effect continued the same Court. And thus as late as the time of Edward the Second you shall find the Curia then not only to have Writs of Error brought thither or to impower the Barons of the Exchequer who were properly under it to determine matters concerning the King's Revenue or concerning Tithes but for Causes of all Natures to be tryed before any Judges they awarded the Writs and appointed the Judges sometimes mandetur Justiciariis de utroque Banco Rot. Parl. 8 Ed. 2. r. 209. These Benches were very anciently fix'd at Westminster-●all but still they were so dependant upon the King 's more immediate Curia that often they were only to hear the Cause and certifie to the higher Court what appear'd to them as was usually done by those who were assign'd to hear the Petitions delivered in Parliament Sometimes Judges were impowered Ad audiendum terminandum matters tam ad 〈◊〉 Regis quam aliorum But certain it is that where an Estate was deriv'd from the King's Grant or the King 's Right and Title might be affected by any matter in Question 't was usual for the Curia to order that Judgment should be stay'd till there was a new Power had after Certificate how the matter stood Thomas de Multon and Anthony de Lucy Rot. Parl. 9 Ed. 2. n. 65. pray that there being need of inspecting the Rolls of Chancery in order to the clearing their Title to certain Lands there might be a view of the Records and Remembrances Part of the Answer is as follows Mittatur ista Petitio sub pede sigilli Willielmo Inge sociis suis Justicia●iis Regis ad placita Regis coram Rege te●enda assignatis unà cum processu super ●egotio in dictâ Peitione contento coram Rogero de Brabanzon sociis suis pri●s habito quem quidem processum idem Rogerus per breve Regis consilio Regis apud Lincolnum liberavit mandetur eis per ●reve quod examinato diligenter toto nego●io praedicto vocatis servientibus Regis aliis qui fuerint evocandi in negotio illo ●rocedant prout de Jure fuerit faciendum Ita tamen quod Rex super Recordo processu dicti negotii certioretur antequam super hoc ad redditionem judicii procedatur serutendum insuper in Cancellaria in Scaccario si necesse fuerit rationes evidentiae siquae pro jure Regis in hac parte poterint inveniri Si necesse s●erit It seems the Justices of the Common Pleas Brabanzon and his Fellows not being particularly commission'd could not proceed to Judgment for want of Power to look into the Rolls of Chancery nor could the Judges of the King's Bench though they had Power of Inspection then given them proceed with effect till they had certified the King in his more immediate Curia The Heirs of Bartholomew Redman ●●t Par● 8 Ed. 2. n. 114. petition that whereas they held Lands of the Abbot of St. Bennet by certain Services which Land they had let to the Queen she obliging her self to discharge the Services but had not they might have Grace and Remedy This was to be examined in Chancery Responsa 〈◊〉 per Co●ci i●m but the Judgment was referred to the Curia Reseratur Regi Rex saciet justitiam To this Curia all manner of Justices were accountable for their Actions So the Judges of Assize in Cornwal● being complained against for acting irregularly Rot. Parl 8 Ed. 2. two are appointed to examine the matter and to certifie the Council who had reserved the Judgment to themselves In short the supream Judicature over all Causes was in this Curia the House of Lords the very same which the Court of Tenants in Chief with such others as us'd to come pro more had before and yet there was a common or ordinary Administration in the Judges But our Author who is by Fits the kindest hearted man in the World proves my Notion to my hand out of Britton Against Jan. c. p. 28. 29. Nous voluns quae nostre Jurisdiction soit sur touts jurisdictions en nostre Royalme which where it relates to Judicature must be meant of the King in his Curia or House of Lords and there as Judge the King has Power in all Felonies Trespasses Contracts and in all other Actions personal or real But because it would be too great a Trouble for the King in that Court to hear and determine in all plaints c. Therefore En primes en droit de nous mesm de nostre Court avouns issint ordyne que pur ceo que nous ne sufficens my en nostre proprie person à oyer terminer touts quereles del people avant dit avouns party nostre charge ex plusieurs parties sicome icy est ordyne Can any thing be more plain than that all inferiour Courts were deriv'd

Parliament But there is yet a farther Evidence in that as the same Matters were handled in the one and the other sometimes in conjunction with the great Council sometimes separate from it so 't was in the same manner And thus Thomas de Berkley who was a Lord in the 4th of Edw. 3. was Tryed in Parliament by a Common Jur● Rot. Parl. 4 Edw. 3. De bono malo ponit se super Patriam upon which a Jury of Knights was returned And this to be sure was according to the Common-Law the way of Tryal in the ordinary Curia which doubtless Glanvil lib. 2. c. 7. was that Assize mentioned by Glanvil Clementiâ Principis de Concilio Procerum populis indultum Where there alwayes was a Jury of twelve at the least Farther Before the Itinerant Judges were setled and before the Courts fixed at Westminster Pleas must needs ordinarily have been coram ipso Rege he being personally present And that the Tenants in Chief 〈…〉 appears by the Constitution of Clarendon which requires it in affirmance of the Common Law Archiepiscopi Episcopi universi personae regni qui de Rege tenent in Capite debent interesse Judiciis Curiae Regis c. Our Adventurer in Antiquities who treats the Author of Jani Anglorum Facies nova with much contempt has this passage p. 26. Notwithstanding he sayes it is agreed on all hands the ordinary Curia was held thrice a year I never heard of any one of his opinion but himself He would make the great Court held at these times he mentions and the great Confluence of Nobility then to the Kings Court to be the King 's ordinary Court for this Dispatch of ordinary Business and Controversies between the King and his Subjects or between man and man I will not deny but often Petitions might be put up and Complaints made to them about private matters such as alwayes have been to the House of Lords and many more of antient times than have been for a Century or two of years And that they did determine and pass Judgment in those Cases But that they were therefore the King 's Ordinary Court I think no body will say but such as never read antient History or Lawyers or at least never intend to understand them Truly he has an excellent Faculty to bring men's Arguments into the shape of his own and then 't is easie even for him to expose them He would have it that according to my Notion the House of Lords is the King 's ordinary Court because of determining in matters of ordinary Justice whereas I make the Notion of Ordinary not to consist in that onely unless it be at ordinary or stated times Nor do I say that the House of Lords is an Ordinary Court but succeeded into the Jurisdiction of the ordinary But he does well to serve my Hypothesis in making the Comparison between these two Courts The one of which as I before observed succeeded to and gives an Idea of the other though it agree not in every particular And as the House of Lords divided from the Commons never could make Laws so neither could the ordinary Curia unless when joyned to the greater though both the House of Lords and the Curia before were the Supreme Courts of Judicature And if the Curia was held thrice a year and confin'd to Matters of ordinary Justice which I think I have proved in shewing that the Legislative Power was vested in more than the King and his Tenants and Officers then I find not that our Champion so much as blunders upon any thing against what I say But to prove more particularly my Assertion which he would have to be my singular Opinion Knighton to instance in an Author of the best eredit tells us of King William the First Knighton f. 2354. In praecipuis Festis profusè convivabat natale Domini apud Gloverniam Pasche apud Wintoniam Pentecosten apud Westmonasterium quando in Anglia foret tenere consuevit On the chief Feasts he used to make great Entertainments when he was in England He used to keep his Christmas at Glocester Easter at Winchester Whitsontide at Westminster Besides at these times when the height of the Feasting was over Causes us'd to be heard Ea●merus f. 37. as Eadmerus who might well know informs us Peractis igitur festivioribus diebus diversorum negotiorum Causae in medium duci ex more caeperunt When therefore the most Festival dayes were over they began to treat of divers Causes as was the usual manner To these Feasts there us'd to come onely Tenants and the King 's great Officers which I need not go to prove since our Author would have Tenants onely even exclusive of Officers that were not T●nants to have come to the greatest Councils So that the Court being held thrice a year the Members of it the same which I have shewn and their Business ordinary Tryals here is that Ordinary Court which I have contended for And thus having given some reason for my confidence p. 49. I may expect to be believed This might serve upon this Head but I thank him he generally gives me occasion by reason of his Exceptions to confirm the Rules which I take He fancies he has a great Advantage over me Jan. c. p. 191. by my saying that the Administration of Justice which I mean of the common or ordinary Administration was taken from the ordinary Curia and fix'd at the Courts in Westminster Hall Communia placita non sequantur Curiam nostram And not observing that there was the same Clause in King John's Charter I had plac'd it some three years too late according to him though in truth Glanvil lib. 2. c. 6. there were Justices in Banco sedentes which seems to be meant of a fix'd place in the time of H. 2. And so it must have been since King John's Charter was not introductory of any new Law But I understand not the force of his Argument that if this Council summoned p. 46 47. as is there were the Curia Regis Ordinaria and went off by reason of this Clause it certainly went off before it began Unless he acknowledge that the Curia there provided for be it ordinary or extraordinary was not in Being before And truly I shall not quarrel with him for this But I appeal to any man that will consider without Byass Whether ' t is manifestly prov'd in the Answer ib. that after the granting of this Charter by King John there were many general and great Councils or Colloquiums summon'd by Edict according to the Form which he would have to be there prescribed However it seems by him that there was no such Form for general and great Councils before But how well do's he understand what I say I make but part of the Power of the Curia to have been taken away by Magna Charta or be it by the Law there affirmed but that

ow'd him in Gratitude for his delivering him from the unmerciful Norman Wido Contigit ut Heraldus filius Godwini de Angliâ navigare vellet in Normaniam sed in terram quae vocatur Pont●ium devenit quem Wido comes ejusdem patriae cepit in Custodiâ tenuit donec industria Willielmi sapientissimi Comitis Normannorum eum liberavit c. Brevis Relat. de Willielmo 1 o per Sil. Taylor that had detained him in Prison Yet he would not follow the wholsome Advice of his Brother Gurth who foretold that Flight or Death would be the Reward of his Perjury while they fighting for their Country M. Par. f. 3. M. West f. 223. might expect a better Fate Tir'd and his Army scatter'd with a bloody though successful Battel against his Brother and the Norwegian Harold breathing nothing but Victory upon News of the Normans coming he hastens from Stanford Bridge to Sussex and nine Miles from Hastings before he could put his Army into Array and as some say before half of it came up he eargerly encounters the fortunate Norman and there was his last Scene of Action Rad. de dicet so 480. So Mat. Par. f. 3. The People thought that he deserved to be their King who though by Artifice and a dissembled Flight could conquer the great Harold William Nec diutius verò ibi immoratus versus Lundonia● principalem civitatem Angliae cepit ire sic ipsam terram Anglorum conquirere Brevis Relat. per S. Taylor fo 193. with great Wisdom hastened to London where doubtless he had many Friends of those Normans that were in favour under the Confessor besides those which they and the Slaves and Mercenaries to the Roman See could whedle to his side and then the Feuds between the Saxon and Danish Nobility and People made one Party for him if it were only out of Faction and opposition to the other He well knew if the City declared for him he did his Business in great Measure that being the Heart of the Nation from whence the Life of Power diffuses it self Many who had true English Blood in ●eir Veins and were against the Reign ●f a Foreigner had been lab'ring an In●erest there Florentius Wig. f. 634. for the setting up Edgar Etheling the Nephew of Edmund Iron-●de and lineal Heir to the Crown But there was so short a time from the Death of Harold to William's sudden ●oming up to London that they could ●ot bring it to any Head and there●ore they that engaged in it and the ●hole City of London Army enough 〈◊〉 have drove Duke William to his Country or his Grave uncrown'd ●ame out to meet him as far as Berkamstead in Hertfordshire where the for●unate Duke Sim. Dunelmensis f. 195. sic Hoveden f. 450. Foedus poepigit made a ●eague or entred into Terms with ●hem they giving Hostages for the ●erforming the Fealty or Allegiance which they promis'd him but like ge●erous Englishmen who were never ●ood at Treaty rely'd at that time ●pon his Word for that reciprocal Fe●ty which if we believe Sir Henry ●pelman Kings used to swear to their subjects Glos. p. 271. Jurabat aliquando Rex ipsubditis suis fidelitatem mitto exteros sic autem de Canuto Rege Flor. Vig. in anno 1016. Fidelitatem illi juravere quibus ille juravit quod 〈◊〉 secundum Deum secundum saeculum fidelis esse vellet eis Dominus The Agreement as Florentius acquaints us was made with Prince Edgar amongst others and admit that al● Pactions with the People were voidable sure he was bound by what he mad● with him who if any one had the Title to the Crown He fought with Harold on the 11●● of Nov. and on Christmas was crown'd at Westminster upon his own desire to come in like a natural Prince either by Choice or by Succession His Coronation Oath was taken before the Altar which was supposed to add to the sacred Tye and this was coram clero populo The Clergy and Laity without distinction by Honours were Parties as well as Witnesses and the form as is agreed both by Simeo● of Durham Sim. Dunelm f. 195. Flor. Wig. f. 634. Hoveden f. 450. Rex dicitur à regendo Bracton Florentius and Hoveden was Velle se sanctas Dei Ecclesias ac Rectores illarum defendere nec non cunctum populum sibi subjectum justè ac rega●● providentiâ regere rectam legem Statue● tenere Rapinas injustaque judicia penitus interdicere That he would defend the holy Churches of God and their Rectors and likewise rule all his Subjects with Justice Viz. According to Law and that Care which befits a King that he would both make and himself keep right Law Viz. Give his Assent and wholly interdict Rapines and unjust Judgments The Solemnities which used to be per●ormed by the Arch-bishop of Canterbury ●ell to the care of the other Arch-bishop ●ome give the reason because the Pope ●ad declared Stigand who was then in ●he See of Canterbury a Schismatick and ●hat he was suspended from his Office ●y Ecclesiastical Censure Bromton f. 962. But Bromton ●ells us and puts it in the first place ●hat 't was said by some that Stigand reused to do it because he look'd upon William as a bloody man and an Usur●er And William of Newberry is positive 〈◊〉 it Newbergensis p. 1. Cumque peractâ Victoriâ tyranni no●en exhorrescens legitimi Principis ●ersonam inducere gestiens à Stigando tunc ●emporis Cantuariensi Archiepis Episcopo in Regem solemniter consecrari deposueret ille ●iro So Bromton supra ut aiebat cruento alieni juris inva●ri manus imponere nullatenus adquievit And when after the Victory gain'd he being afraid of the name of Tyrant and desirous to assume the Person of a lawful Prince entreated to be solemnly consecrated King by Stigand then Arch-bishop of Canterbury Stigand would by no means lay his hands upon a man as he said bloody and an Invader of anothers Right or that took what was none of his own I conceive it most probable that this Prince who according to his Character could not easily forgive them that caus'd him any Trouble being mindful of the Check which Stigand gave him even after London had taken Terms purposely wav'd taking the Crown from one that rival'd the Pope in Spiritual and him in temporal Power and had bid open defiance to both Wherefore his being crown'd by the other Arch-bishop Et potissimè Stigandum Bromton fo 962. and the Jealousie he had of Stigand which made him take particular Care to have him with him into Normandy Quia quidam laborarunt utpote Tho. Sprot alii c. Prologus Willielmi Thorne fo 1758. lest his Authority in England should unsettle his new got Kingdom gives a strong Inducement to the Belief of what William Thorne who wrote in the time of

Rich. 2. tells us out of Sprot and others though some would have us think that he took it only out of Sprot He himself tells us that even where he follows Sprot Quaedam superflua à compilatione dicti Thomae resecans quaedam notabilia suis in locis eidem addens ib. he not only cut off many things but added many remarkable Passages Thorne gives us a particular Account of Stigand's raising the men of Kent to ●ight for their old Laws and Liberties Thorne fol. 1786. which many others not being Kentish ●en would not mention lest their Magnanimity should upbraid the sud●en yielding of the rest This I take to have been between October and Christmas when he was ●rowned and that having entred into Treaty and concluded on Terms at London which however they tell us that ●e broke he went towards Dover Vt ●llam cum caeteris partibus comitatûs suae ●ubjiceret potestati It seems Dover was then the Strength of Kent and he thought by the get●ing of that he should be able to keep all that Country under Upon this Arch-bishop Stigand and Abbot Egelsine and all the great men of Kent perceiving that an ill Fate lay upon the whole Kingdom and that whereas before none of the English were Servants now Nobles as well as Plebeians were brought under the Yoke of Slavery represented to the People assembled together the misery of their Neighbours the Insolence of the Normans and the hardship of a servile Condition and animated them all as one man to a resolution of dying or maintaining their Liberties I know many learned men look upon this part as suspicious taking the Sense to be that there were no Villains in England Sylas Taylor of Gavel p. 167. in Kent especially before that time which they are at pains to shew that there were But I conceive the meaning of the words is no more than that there had ever been in England a Distinction between Free-men and Slaves and therefore that none of the English that is the People of the Land which the Law has ever confin'd to Free-holders they that depend upon the Will of others Villains or Servants being no Cives any part of the Nation in that sense ought to bear that Slavery which the Violence of the Normans threatned to all in common Nor wants there Authority for the Freedom of all the Kentish-men in the largest Extent for in an ancient Roll of the Customs of Kent Lambert's Perambulation of Kent 21 Ed. 1. 't is said to have been allowed in Eire before John of Berwick and his Companions the Justices in Eire in Kent the 21 of King Edward the Son of Henry that is to say that all the Bodies of Kentish men be free as well as the other free-bodies of England Lambert's Perambulation p. 632. And this confess'd to be true 30. Ed. 1. in the Title of Villenage 46 in Fitzherbert where it is holden sufficient for a man to avoid the Subjection of Bondage to say that his Father was born in the Shire of Kent The just value of this Freedom Thorne made all the Free-holders of Kent with all that depended upon them resolve to put a stop to William's Depredations At Swanscomb was their general Randezvouz and their numbers were so great that as the Norman Prince advanc'd he found himself hem'd in with an armed Wood for that they might secure themselves of his making no Escape so confident were they of Victory or forcing their own Terms every man by Agreement took a Bough in his hand to block up the way The Arch-bishop and the Abbot in the name of the rest told him that the whole People of Kent were come out to meet him and to acknowledge him their Leige Lord if they might enjoy their Liberties and Laws otherwise they denounc'd War and bid him Defiance Upon this William calls a Council of War and he finds it expedient to give them their Terms they knowing how he had used those who trusted to his Generosity or Justice took Hostages as well as gave and then in full Assurance of his Performance yielded him their County or the Government of it not all the Land and Property there and as what would secure the Government there to him resigned up the Castle of Dover To this Relation Perambulation of Kent p. 25. the great and faithful Antiquary Mr. Lambart gives sufficient Reputation Mr. Camden says Camden ' s Brit. Ut verè quamvis minùs purè in antiquo libro sit scriptum that no man before Sprot has told these Circumstances but he cites an ancient Authority which was a Plea not oppos'd and which could not be taken from Sprot in which he confesses the Substance of this to be contained and though not elegantly writ yet with Truth So that Mr. Camden is on our side being convinc'd by the truth of his own quotation Dicit Cantii Comitatus quod in Comitatu ipso de jure debet de ejusmodi gravamine esse liber quia dicit quod Comitatus iste ut residuum Angliae nunquam fuit conquestus sed pace facta se reddidit Conquestoris dominatui salvis sibi omnibus libertatibus liberis consuetudinibus primò habitis usitatis The County of Kent says that in that County of right it ought to be free from such a Grievance because it sayes that that County was never conquered like the rest of England But having made a Peace yielded its self to the Conquerour's Dominion saving to themselves all their Liberties and free Customes at first had and from that time us'd It seems in standing up for their own Rights they reflected upon the rest as an humble conquer'd People And indeed whereas it has past into a Maxim Nemo miser nisi comparatus No man's condition is unhappy thought But when into the Scales with happier men he 's brought On the other side men are apt to think their Happiness incompleat without comparing themselves with those whom they look upon as deprived of the Advantages which they enjoy Thus our late Author enhances the value he puts upon himself by the Contempt which he thinks his Adversaries deserve though in truth how low soever they lye he rises no higher but it may be disgraces his Mastership by the comparison But to return to the Men of Kent the generality of which how free soever they were Against Mr. Petyt p. 39. were by his Rule no Freemen of the Kingdom for all the Freemen of the Kingdom were Tenants in Military Service Feudalibus Legibus non 〈…〉 Spel. Glos. tit Gavel kind Which was of the Feudal Law whereas their Gavel-kind was exempt from it I can imagine no other Reason why they above others constantly maintained their old Laws and Customes than that they were a sturdy People more than ordinary tenacious of their Rights and sensible of the least Violation And possibly for a long time they retained the Power of taking Satisfaction upon

If a man holding of the King in Capite by the Service of two Knights alien'd one or two Knights Fees with Licence without particular Exemption from the King's Duty in this Case the Burden went along with the Land but if he had according to Licence made sufficient Provision for the King's Service the rest he might have rais'd for his own use and though the Service continued to be reserved to the King yet the Alienee before the Statute of Quia emptores terrarum which was introductory of a new Law was Tenant to the immediate Feoff●r this Tenant had no Right to be at the King's Council of Tenants and yet was to answer Escuage and all manner of Charges as assest by the Tenants in Chief who were the only Council for the purposes of such Tenure Si quid novisti rectius istis Candidus imp●rti si non his utere mecum If our wise Author greater Truths have taught Shew me wherein or take what I have brought To go on with Great and General Councils 21 H. 3. we find at a Great Council Comites Barones Milites liberi homines Whereas 't is said on the other side that none under the Degree of Knights came At another Jani c. p. 244. Barones Proceres Magnates ac Nobiles Portuum Maris habitatores nec non Clerus Populus universus 'T is a ridiculous Answer to this that all these are put together only to make an Impression upon the Pope as if the Sense of the whole Nations Representative whatever it were were not as much to move a Foreign Prince as the whole Nations 45 Hen. 3. Three are chosen out of every County to represent the Body of the County An Agreement was made between King and People 48. H 3. Jan. c. p. 246. A Domino Rege Domino Ed. filio suo Prelatis Proceribus omnibus et communitate regni Angliae To all this p. 265. may be added that long before where the ingenuitas regni were consulted Here are Instances enough of greater Councils than such as King John's Charter settles as I have observed those there were made a Council only for the matters of their Feud they met ordinarily three times a Year and in that were ordinarily a Court of Justice and he betrays his Ignorance not to say more who affi●ms the contrary 'T is no Objection to this that sometimes we find Regnum Angliae at it for still 't was ad Curiam pro more Not that the Kingdom used to come of Course but then came to that Court which was ordinary or of Course That the Kings great Officers and Ministers of Justice were there I have always yielded and that 't was no Grievance to the Tenants to have Justice administred without them at other times and therefore it makes not against my Sense that these often sat without the Tenants Yet their sitting was not at stated times and therefore they were not Curia pro more Either way there was a great Council distinct from the less 1. As to the persons composing the one and the other The Great Council had the whole Nation of Propriet●rs or of Representatives of their Choice in the other at the most the King had only his Tenants in Chief and Officers and Ministers of Justice 2. As to the matters treated of the one treated of matters of extraordinary Justice the other but ordinary 3. For time the great Council was summon'd as often as the State of the Kingdom required it the other as a Court of Tenants and Officers had times ascertain'd not but that as occasion might offer it self they might be summon'd according to King John's Charter Nay may be after that they never met but upon Summons the lesser Court of Officers and Ministers of Justice met oftner than either but not of Course And thus have I answered his Arguments from King John's Charter by which he labours to prove That Tenants in Chief only composed the Great Council or were all the Nobility of England and have given a clear Account of that unintelligible piece as he is pleased to represent it leaving out what I offer'd upon the Question of the Bishops Voting in Capital Cases since he had no other way of answering it than by calling it impertinent Rhapsody Tho if 't is no better to be answer'd 't is not Rhapsody and fancyful Stuff and if the first ground from our Laws to dispute their Right mentions it in relation to the Curia Regis 't was not surely impertinent to consider their Right the Curia from whence 't was excluded being so directly to my purpose There are other things incidentally coming in which I divide not into Heads being they serve but to explain those which I have rais'd To which may be added That our Author by the Exercise of his Faculty of Story-telling and setting forth the Power of the great rebellious Barons Against Mr. Petyt p. 210. has given us to understand That the Commons were not first brought into the Great Councils in the 49 of Hen. 3. unless we believe that the great men would co●sent to ballance and weaken their own Power I may put the Question in his own words upon another Occasion Can it be reasonably imagined Against Mr. Petyt p. 234. 235. that they should give way to or establish such Laws as would undoe and destroy their own Settlement in Power Wherefore the Argument is strong that till then the Commons came in their own Person but that then the Great men having the Power in their hands clip'd their Wings But let us see his weighty Arguments against my sense of this Charter In Answer to my third Head he puts me off with the Fallibility of a Parlialiament but if moral Certainty without Infallibility will not satisfie him in matters of the greatest Concern we may know what he would be at But forsooth this was not a full Court of Tenants because as was usual only some few attested the Fact In Opposition to my Fifth p. 10. 11. he tells us that even voluntary Gifts to the Crown are called auxilia nay even such as were more than Advances upon Services But what proof is there that such were here meant when not only Services because of Tenure with the Advances upon them but what came from more than Tenants are called Auxilia too As general Objections against my Sense 1. If Tenants in Capite were a great Council of the Kingdom p. 12. for Aids and Escuage only which is hardly reconcileable to Sense Why so good Dr. May there not be a great Council especially a Common-Council to a particular Purpose Nay you your self confine it's Power to the raising of Taxes Why was the Cause of Summons to be declared Because of the occasion requiring greater or less Aid 2. Lastly If all Free-men or as our Author saith in other places all Proprietors were Members of the Great and General

Council of the Nation p. 13. 'T is strange there should not have been the same Care taken that they might be summoned as well as the Tenants in Capite Certainly they came not to them by instinct nor is it scarce probable that they would leave their Ploughs and Country Business to travel from one remote part of England to another to these great Councils which seldome continued above three or four days if they had had Right so to do This is as trifling as the rest for if the Common Law took care for their Coming and for their general Summons nor had their Right been denied them there was no need of special Provision by that Charter Upon my seventh Head of the Distinction between the Great Council and the Curia pro more he attacks me very vigorously and having before tax'd me with new modelling the Government wild p. 1. extravagant and confus'd Notions unintelligible Vagaries p. 47. impertinent Rhapsodies p. 32. 41. 53. 62. 63. perverse Interpretations Ignorance and Confidence to say no more monstrous abusing of History cheating and abusing my Readers and wresting Records and Histories with a long Et caetera out comes this gentle Rebuke And indeed as he deals with Sir Henry Spelman's Glossary p. 96. in saying the second part was not his own so doth he shuffle off all Records and Histories which are directly against him by saying the Curia or Great Councils there mention'd were but an ordinary Curia or Council and such as in his own Judgment contain any thing that makes for him The Councils there spoken of are Great and General Councils to be sure 'T is doubtless an hainous thing to call that a Great or General Council which is so in my own Judgment But if I prove and that out of himself too that there came more to the King 's Great Councils than his Tenants in Chief and Officers such as compos'd the Curia held pro more thrice a year surely it lies upon him to shew that at any one Council where more than Tenants were charged Tenants only were present And I affirm that he neither has nor can produce one Authority which upon Examination can signifie any thing And to retort his last Charge as he deals with Sir Henry Spelman in putting upon him his own or his Friends Sense So he doth shuffle over Records which are directly against him and supplants them by History seemingly for him And if the last contain any thing which in his own Judgment makes for him the Council there spoken of is a Great and General Council of Tenants in Chief only to be sure though the Record mention more Our Author says of the Curia which I contend to have been pro more or ordinary If he can make the Court holden coram Rege Consilio before the King and Councel which he hath made his Instance for his ordinary Court and be the same with the Common Council of the Kingdom establish'd by that Charter meaning King John ' s he gains the point but if it cannot be done he may very well blush at his own Confidence to say no more Truely I should rather blush at the want of Sense in that Paragraph if it were mine for I cannot well answer for making the Court and be the same But since he has informed me where the point lies I can easily gain it by proving that the Court holden coram Rege Consilio became the Court of which our Dispute is as it had the same Power whether held by the same persons or at the same times is not material so that it be the Kings Curia or Magnum Concilium as the Court held pro more was In Order to the clearing this he may please to understand that the King's Court had the only Cognizance of the Kings Grants or Charters agreeable to which Bracton lib. 2. cap. 16. p. 34. Bracton says De chartis verò regiis factis regum non debent nec possunt justiciarii nec privatae personae disputare nec etiam si in illâ Dubitatio oriatur possunt eam interpretari et in dubiis et obscuris vel si aliqua dictio duos contineat intellectus Domini Regis erit expectanda interpretatio et voluntas cum ejus sit interpretari cujus est concedere et etiam si omnino sit falsa propter rasuram vel quia fortè signum appositum est adulterinum melius et tutius est quod coram ipso Rege procedatur ad judicium Curia coram Rege Cons. But of the King's Charters and of the Deeds of Kings the Justices or private Persons neither ought nor can dispute nor if any doubt arises therein can they interpret it and in doubtful and obscure things or if any word contain two meanings the King's Interpretation and Will is to be expected since it belongs to him to interpret who made the Grant and also if it be wholly false by reason of Rasure or because perhaps a counterfeit Seal is put to it 't is best and safest that Judgment should be proceeded to before the King himself Here was a 〈…〉 Court for these matters held before the King that is before him and his Council And thus 18 Ed. 1. The Bishop of Carlisle produces the Charter of Richard the First Ryley placita Parl. f. 20. about the Advowson of the Church of Burgh this was before Thomas de Weyland and his Companions Justices of the King's Bench but because they did not do them Right he Petitions that the King would do him Remedy and Grace upon it because none but Kings themselves ought to judge of Kings Charters This is received before the King and his Counsel in Parliament and because there was need of a Certificate to be made in the Case 't is referred to the next Parliament that is when it relates to any Judgment to be given Counsel then to sit But the Business as I find many of the like kind upon the Parliament Rolls was properly brought before the Kings Counsel in Parliament who Jani Anglorum facies nova p. 190. as I before observed succeeded into the places of the Tenants in the Curia and indeed I see not what other Account can be given of the Lords Jurisdiction As this Counsel acted in Parliament with the same Power which the Tenants had exercised before so we find them sometimes acting like the Tenants in the Curia in the Intervals of Parliament as in the 33. of Ed. 1. after the Parliament was dissolved and all sent home Ryley f. 241. f. 256. but the Bishops Earls and Barons Justices and others of the Kings Counsel Several things are transacted coram toto Consilio and Judgments given secundum consuetudinem Curiae Indeed we often find that when Matters of Publick Concern or which as they say concern'd the Treaty came before them they never undertook to determine upon them but left them to the next