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A20000 Dialogicall discourses of spirits and divels declaring their proper essence, natures, dispositions, and operations, their possessions and dispossessions : with other the appendantes, peculiarly appertaining to those speciall points, verie conducent, and pertinent to the timely procuring of some Christian conformitie in iudgement, for the peaceable compounding of the late sprong controuersies concerning all such intricate and difficult doubts / by [brace] Iohn Deacon, Iohn Walker... Deacon, John, fl. 1585-1616.; Walker, John, preacher. 1601 (1601) STC 6439; ESTC S323 312,434 405

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DIALOGICALL Discourses of SPIRITS and DIVELS Declaring their proper essence natures dispositions and operations their possessions and dispossessions with other the appendantes peculiarly appertaining to those speciall points Verie conducent and pertinent to the timely procuring of some Christian conformitie in iudgement for the peaceable compounding of the late sprong controuersies concerning all such intricate and difficult doubts By IOHN DEACON IOHN WALKER Preachers If there shall arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreames giue thee a signe or woonder and the signe or woonder which he haue tolde thee come to passe saying Let vs go after other gods which thou knowest not and let vs serue them Thou shalt not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams for the Lord your God prooueth you to know whether ye loue the Lord your God with all your hart and with all your soule Deut. 13. 1. 2. 3. If any shall say vnto you Lo heere is Christ or there is Christ Beleeue them not therefore for there shall arise false Christes and false Prophets and shall shew great signes and woonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect Matth. 24. 23. 24. Aug. De Trinitate Quisquis audit vel legit vbi pariter certus est pergat mecum vbi pariter haesitat quaerat mecum vbi errorem suum cognoscit redeat mecum vbi meum reuocet me Ita ingrediamur simul charitatis viam tendentes ad eum de quo scriptum est quaerite faciem eius semper That is Whosoeuer heareth or readeth where he is perswaded with me let him proceede with me where he is doubtfull let him inquire with me where he acknowledgeth his errour let him returne with me where he espieth mine let him recall me So shall we walke ioyntly togither in the way of charitie going foreward towards him of whom it is written Seeke yee his face euermore Propugnaculum vitae patientia LONDINI Impensis Geor. Bishop 1601. TO THE RIGHT Honorable and righteous Iudges Sir THOMAS EGERTON knight Lord Keeper of the great Seale of England Sir IOHN POPHAM knight Lord cheefe Iustice of England Sir EDMVND ANDERSON knight Lord cheefe Iustice of the common Pleas and Sir WILLIAM PERIAM knight Lord cheefe Baron of the Exchequer with other the most reuerend Iudges of the common Lawes of England I. D. and I. W. do hartily wish all sauing knowledge in Iesus Christ. RIGHT Honorable Lords you may not possiblie be ignorant of the late-bred broyles not long since brewed broached at Nottingham by meanes of Sommers his supposed possession and dispossession especially those selfesame broyles being eftsoones reuiued since and now also by what priuiledge we wotte not so publikely reported in Print as their flying rumours doe mightilie ouer-runne the whole Realme yea euen to the vttermost borders thereof We two did vndoubtedly assure our selues that the holie regard of Religion of loyall obedience to her Maiesties Princely prerogatiue of the publike peace of the Church of due reuerence to her Maiesties positiue Lawes of dutifull submission to the definitiue sentence of Iustice of common humanitie towards the persons of men yea and of a carefull continuance of their honest reputations woulde something haue restrained if not vtterly inhibited the parties especially conuicted from the vntimely attempting of any such vnorderly course as now by their newly published Pamphletes they haue most vndutifully blazed abroad And therefore the Christian care of that their hoped moderate cariage hath caused vs hitherto euen purposely to suppresse this folowing Treatise which almost three yeeres since we had euen carefully ●ompyled as a christian counter-checke to al such vnwoonted occurrents yea and this our former suppressing thereof proceeded we assure you from a felow-like feare of procuring vntimely disgrace and of adding affliction to the principall parties themselues Esteeming it much better to burie our precedent labours in the graue of forgetfulnes then by any their needlesse publishing to procure a present disturbance or to hatch a subsequent broyle in the Church by pestering the same with such impertinent obscure and needlesse paradoxes as in their books are broched abroad Howbeit perceiuing the principall parties with other their vnder-hand fauorites as it were in a setled pertinacie not onely to hold all those their former phantasticall toies with tooth and naile but which more is thus preposterously and perhaps also with the secret support of their vnder-hand Fauorites thus vndutifully to pursue the same with such publike disgrace of publike persons notwithstanding any the precedent countermaunds or definitiue determinations of publike authoritie we verily thought and our owne conscience did witnes against vs in the presence of God that we might iustly be deemed too too irreligious towards the Lord disloyall to her Maiesties Princely prerogatiue ouer-much carelesse of publike peace exceeding remisse concerning the positiue Lawes of our land most derogatorious to the definitiue sentence of iustice monstrous inhumane towards the persons of men yea altogither carelesse of our honest reputations if that light which the Lord in mercie we hope hath reuealed vnto vs should now any longer Lie buried vnder a bushell and not rather be set on a candlesticke for the better enlightning of all in the house concerning these intricate and hidden mysteries More especially now at this present when the fearefull infection of those their factious proceedings so vniuersally and so dangerously ouer spreadeth it selfe not vnlike to the fretting Gangrena or incurable Canker Experienced Antiquaries right honorable Lords doe verie well know to what dangerous heads such si●ly beginnings haue by carelesse negligence growen in continuance of time and therefore euen the verie primarie appearances of euerie such fearefull occurrent would be the more warelie and more wisely nipt in the head yea and the streaming courses thereof the more heedfully intercepted and stopped in time for feare of ouerflowing the yoong buds of our holy Religion For these speciall respects wee haue now proffered our labours to publike view and doe verie humblie importune your Honors patronage and fauourable protection for them so farre foorth especially as they fully accord with the infallible truth of the Scriptures We protest right Honorable Lords that we our selues in penning this Treatise did euen purposely resolue with our soules to banish all partiall and priuate respects from out of our brests as may by the matter and method thereof verie plainely appeere to any indifferent Reader Yea wee wholie deuoted our selues to penne onely such speciall points as other writers report and record in their seuerall workes and which in our owne consciences before the presence of God we are hitherto perswaded are vndoubtedly true desiring with all our harts to be better and more fully informed wherein we haply may erre by the holie endeuours of such as the Lord hath in mercie enlightened with a more syncere and sanctified knowledge concerning these points The speciall motiues for our thus
What manner of waies are those Physiologus First the manner of corporall substances is to be in a place circumscriptiuely commensuratiuely dimensiuely or locally that is euen so and in such sort as the interiour superficies or parts of the place containing doe yeeld place to the magnitude or exteriour parts of the thing placed therein Secondly the manner of spirituall substances is to be in a place imaginarily determinately or definitiuely For although spirituall essences are no corporall matters stretched out by dimensions yet notwithstanding being finite and circumscriptible substances they may determinately or definitiuely and by proprietie of substance be saide to be so in a place as for that selfesame instant they cannot possibly be said to be any where else Because one finite substance situate in sundrie and diuers places at once cannot be one and the same Thirdly and lastly the maner of God his being alone is to be in euerie place indefinitiuely repletiuely or replenishingly Both because his almightie power is euerie where effectually working and for that also his diuine essence or substance is at all times and for euer in euery place present Now then by all the premisses you may plainly perceiue after what maner of sort the diuel if any at al hath a possession or place in man Not circumscriptiuely commensuratiuely dimensiuely not locally for that manner of placing appertaineth especially to corporall substances and the diuell hath onely a spirituall essence Neither yet indefinitiuely repletiuely or replenishingly for that manner of placing doth properly and peculiarly belong vnto God who is onely of an infinite and incomprehensible being whereas the diuell is a finite and circumscriptible creature And therefore the diuell himselfe consisting of a circumscriptible and finite substance must needes be but determinately or definitiuely in one only place at once and so by consequence must haue onely an imaginarie possession or place in man and not any substantiall possession in him at all Physiologus Lycanthropus so farre as I can perceiue this our conceited opinion concerning the supposed mentall possession of diuels will fall flat to the ground Lycanthropus I feare me euen so Howbeit good master Orthodoxus let me aske you this question If it be true indeed that diuels do not essentially enter into the possessed mens mindes howe then shoulde they possibly hurt them Orthodoxus I will answere this question by asking you another thus If it be certeinly true that good Angels doe not essentially enter into godly mens mindes how then should they possiblie helpe them Lycanthropus I know not what to answere I assure you Orthodoxus I thinke euen so and yet the reason of both is one and the same For howsoeuer the good and euill Angels doe propound to themselues quite contrarie ends in all their operations yet their manner of working is alwaies alike Namely whether they helpe vs or hurt vs they doe euermore worke after an inuisible insensible and spirituall manner Now then that good Angels doe vndoubtedly helpe men it is apparantly euident For they are all ministring spirits sent foorth for their sakes who shall bee heires of saluation That Abraham Isaak Iaacob Israel the virgin Marie and many others were sundrie waies succoured by Angels the scriptures record but that the Angels entred substantially into the mindes of any one whom they helped is no where to be found Neither is it to be doubted at all but that the Lord God as largely imploieth the ministerie of good Angels in comforting the godly by the manifestation of his mercies as he vseth the ministerie of euill Angels in afflicting the vngodly by the declaration of his iustice And yet can it not be found throughout all the whole Bible that the Lord euer helped any one of the godly by the ministerie of his good Angels essentially entring into their mindes and therefore it were meere madnes to imagine that he should afflict anie the vngodlie by the ministerie of euill Angels really and substantially inherent in their mindes Verie true it is that the almightie creatour of spirits he being onely of power to penetrate the spirits of men and of Angels can and doth himselfe inwardly comfort the godlie euen in that selfesame eternall loue wherewith he created them all and in whom alone they do liue mooue and haue also their being but that therefore any his Angels should be also inuested with such an absolute internall power of helping or hurting through an essentiall entring into the verie harts and mindes of his people that may iustly be doubted the same being no where reuealed vnto vs throughout the scriptures Lycanthropus Yes Augustine verie flatlie affirmeth that the good Angels of God so oft as they are willing to help and to comfort the godlie they do essentiallie mingle then selues with their minds And this also he proueth from Zacharie saying the Angel that spake in me Which argueth plainelie that the good Angel was reallie in Zacharie els how should he speake in him at al Orthodoxus Augustine he affirmeth no such thing for certeine but onelie supposeth it so Whereupon it is euident that this your affirmation being builded vpon bare supposals supposeth no certeintie in that which you say And as for the place of zacharie your Augustine I assure you he doth ouer curiouslie vnfold the perspicious manner of speaking among the Hebrews them selues who eftsoones for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say in me do translate it mecum or ad me that is with me or to me And therefore for the Angel that spake in me they read it thus the Angel that spake with me or to me Howbeit ignorance in the Hehrewe toong hath caused manie of the old fathers verie fowlie to erre and to decline from the true sence of the scriptures Lycanthropus If it be in the original thus the Angel that spake in me Why translate you it thus the Angel that spake with me or to me Orthodoxus Because as wel the elegancy as the propriety of the language it selfe must be dulie respected Although yet such a prouident respect must be vsed in both as the true sense and purpose of the place according to the proportion of faith be warelie and wiselie obserued Otherwise if you so stricktlie relie on the letter how then vnderstand you the Apostle Paul speaking thus you seeke experience of Christ that speaketh in mee Dare you auouch that Christ spake euer essentiallie in the person of Paul Or spake he not rather ministeriallie in him And therefore whereas the Apostle saith you seeke experience of Christ who speaketh in me that must be expounded thus of Christ who speaketh by me or thorough me So then by this you may plainelie perceiue that Augustine from that place of Zacharie hath litle or no helpe to support your idle supposal And to the end you may the better consider how authentically he auoucheth that vncertaine conceit it shall not be amisse
together that man may not truely be termed a liuing man And which more is the soule and body are so inseparably conioyned by the creation of God as no one creature in heauen or in earth may possibly disioyne them before the finall separation of life according to the determinate councell appointment of God Briefly be it supposed that the diuell could in deed assume to himselfe some liuing mans bodie and could also for the present extenuate the same and transforme the substance thereof into spirituall congellations as Tatianus affirmeth yet this is verie certaine and a generall rule that two substantiall formes cannot possibly be inherent together and at once in one and the selfe same subiect And therefore to bring the substantiall forme of a diuell without feeling into the substantiall body of a man without either killing or hurting and which more is to transforme the same into such a slender and impalpable substance as cannot of the possessed him selfe be sensibly perceiued or felt no not at the first entrance into him it may well be vnlikely but very certaine I am the same is vtterly impossible for all the diuels in hell to accomplish such hard hap they haue in assuming a liuing mans body Pneumatomachus For my part I rather suppose that the Diuel doth assume to himselfe some deads mans bodie Physiologus This your supposall is no lesse absurd then the orher before For first if that bodie which the Diuel doth assume be the body of a dead man departed long since then surely it is an hundred to one that that selfesame assumed bodie is either eaten with wormes and so vnfit for the seruice or is else so putrified with filthie corruption as the Diuel by entring into any therwith must needes poyson the possessed man vnto death Againe if that assumed bodie be the bodie of a dead man but lately departed this life the Diuel then by assuming such a newly departed bodie must be supposed to appeere in a white winding sheete as he was heretofore thought to appeere vnto Saul in Samuels supposed bodie with a mantel about him must so for the present forsake that his supposed forme which the Poets and Painters doe hold to be griesly and blacke Besides that in supposing the Diuel can assume to himselfe the bodie of a man you doe therein very grosly oppose your selfe to the blessed Apostle who saith most confidently that mens bodies are created for the Lord himselfe and not for infernall Spirits That they are the members of Christ not the mansions of Belial the temples of the holy Ghost not a dungeon for Diuels a stie for Satan not an habitation for Helhounds Briefly if the Diuel doth assume to himselfe some dead mans bodie whether long since or but lately departed we must by this your supposall imagine a resurrection of bodies before to the generall iudgement and therein also must attribute to the Diuel that absolute power of raising the dead which only is due and proper to God and so by consequence conclude that the Diuel can accomplish and worke true miracles Whereas the Lord only is able to take life from the dead and to restore them againe vnto life which is such a miraculous worke of the omnipotent God as by an infallible consequence approoueth the Deitie Seeing therefore that by this your supposal you doe in effect but Deifie the Diuel bee foorthwith ashamed to hold that Spirits haue power to assume to themselues the bodie of a man alreadie created whether dead or aliue Lycanthropus You grant then that the Diuels doe assume to themselues some vncreated bodie Physiologus I grant no such thing For how is it possible either Diuel or Angel should assume that which is not at all or that they should take to themselues a bodie not yet existing in nature Philologus Very true But after the creation of such an essentiall bodie you doe then confesse the Diuel may assume such a bodie Physiologus I confesse no such matter vnlesse you first shew me by whom those selfesame supposed bodies should be essentially created whether by God or the Diuel Exorcistes They are surely created by God or not at all for the Lord onely alone is the creator of all things Physiologus Though the Lord in deed be the Creator of all things yet doth it not necessarily folow and your selfe shal neuer be able to proue that he is also the Creator of these things And how dare you then so confidently auouch that these your supposed bodies for the seruice of diuels are essentially created by God Exorcistes God is of infinite power and therefore may doe it Physiologus Your may be concludeth nothing at all Neither doe we dispute what God either may or is able to doe but what in deed and in truth he doth certainly accomplish And albeit the Lord I confesse be of infinit power yet is his said power restrainde to his will for whatsoeuer the Lord willeth that doth he in heauen and in earth So then vnlesse you can shew the Lords word to witnesse his will concerning such extraordinarie creation of bodies for the seruice of Satan whatsoeuer your selfe shall haplie imagine that God may doe therein you must yet giue vs leaue to doubt of the doing there of in deed Lycanthropus But why may not the Lord for the execution of iustice create them such bodies Physiologus First because the Lord hath infinite meanes besides and those also of more excellent maiestie for the execution of iustice and therefore he stands in no maner of neede to haue such a patched supplie Secondly for that the Lord will neuer do that which may any waies witnes against himselfe But for him to create such essential bodies afresh at the pleasure of the diuell and so oft as he pleaseth doth derogate greatly from the certaintie of that sacred truth which sealeth vnto vs the certaine accomplishment of all his workes whatsoeuer in sixe daies space and the vndoubted ceasing from all his labors the folowing day Moreouer to hold for infallible truth that those your supposed bodies for the seruice of Satan must in any case be created of God what doe you else in effect but thereby conclude the Lord him selfe to be slauishly subiect vnto Satan his accursed commaund in creating him bodies afresh and so oft as seemeth him good Briefly sith the glory of God is the maine end of all his creation what one glory may possibly redounde to the Lord by creating such your supposed bodies as being altogether by Satan abused are prepared neither to destruction nor glorie And therefore it is grosse impietie or rather an horrible blasphemie for any to hold that the Lord alone must be the Creator of any such essentiall bodies as your selfe and some others suppose the diuell doth assume to his seruice Lycanthropus It is certaine then that those assumed bodies are created by Satan him selfe Physiologus It is euen as