against Iesus Christ 10. They as they pretended for the liberty and service of the Israel of God vers 3.13 You as your selves do know and acknowledge many of you for * Rev. 13.16 17.4.5.6 18.3 the slaverie and abominations of the Whore of Babylon Of which see before Pag. 63. c. Now your case being thus Mr Iacob it is high tyme for you to lay it to heart and to look vnto it betymes Or if you will not yet let such among you as feare God and tremble at his word be warned by this example of Corah and his partakers that they do with speed depart from the tents of such vngodlie men and that they towch nothing of yours least they perish in all your sinnes Numb 16.26 with Rev. 18.4 Neither need you or anie among you flatter your selves in this as it seemeth you do that the punishements of sinne are not now vnder the Gospell so outward and miraculous with Gods hand from heaven as they were then vnder the Law For first this argueth the more clearenes of the word now revealed as lesse needing such outward work to be joined withall for help thereof Which is contrary to that you spake before of greater darkenes in the word for our vnderstanding and vse now then for theirs then Secondly the judgements that then came vpon them were for ensamples and are written to admonish vs vpon whom the ends of the world are come 1 Cor. 10.11 with Num. 26.10 Thirdly even since the tyme of the Gospell there are some examples in the Scripture though not so manie as in the tyme of the Law of Gods miraculous hand smiting both †Act. 5 1-11 hypocrites in the Church and ‡ Act. 13 6-11 oppugners of the truth without Which should teach all men to take heed to their wayes aswell as if there were a thousand mo besides Not to speak here of such examples as the Elclesiasticall storyes in all ages older ond later do abundantlie afford Fourthlie the lesse outward punishment is now in this life brought vpon Idolaters persecutors despisers of the truth c. the greater is reserved for them in the world to come Els the Papists and the most prophane might pretend this for themselves aswell as you And yet too In the yeare 1593. c. take heed you forget not * the great plague and famine by which God hath pleaded against England alreadie Neither do you know what other judgement he hath in store for you even in this life if you still persist in your Antichristian estate and will not be reclaymed Finally for full aunswer of all you say here read and mynd well that which is written Eccles 8.11.12.13 9.1.2.3 12.13.14 Towching the estate of Ieroboam and the Israelites compared with yours I have spoken ynough before Pag. 110. c. I wish your case were not in divers respects worse then theirs Where I said this cause hath ben made manifest to the consciences of men to the high Court of Parliament c. you graunt in this I say well If so then your self have done ill in resisting it so long But now it is well you yeeld it at length Yet behold as if you feared to yeeld to much to the truth at once you do by and by except that it is not made manifest to the consciences of all men or the most no not of them that know and feare God among you c. 1. If it be not where is the fault In the maner of conviction or in your selves That it is not in the conviction your self testify seing you graunt it is such as thereby to some mens consciēces the cause is made manifest Why then should it not be likewise to the rest if your owne blyndnes or wilfulnes through the just judgement of God were not the hindrance When Paul at Rome testifyed to the Iewes the kingdome of God c. some were perswaded with the things that were spoken but some beleeved not Act. 28.24.25 c. Had it now ben any exception of waight to have said as you do here it is made manifest to the consciences of some but not of all c. Nay the Apostle so rests telling such as were not perswaded that this came to passe through their owne wilfull blindnes and hardnes of heart by the just hand of God vpon them And to this end he alledged against them that saying of Esay the Prophet Esay 6.9.10 Which you in this case of yours may fitlie also applie vnto your selues 2. Further you can not deny but it hath to the Parliament ben made manifest Now that being gathered out of all the parts of the Land and representing the whole body thereof as I noted in my former aunswer by this is evident that the whole body of the Land have had it manifested vnto them Exod 3.16.18 Deut. 21.2.6.7.8 2 Sam. 5.1.3 1 Chron. 13.1 2.4 28.1 2. Act. 28.17 And this in such cases is sufficient yea the best course that can be taken for the generall State Of which the question is In the place before alledged we fynd that Paul judged it the best course and sufficient to call together but the chief of the Iewes and to testify his cause vnto them Act. 28.17 c. And otherwise how will you prove the Religion now mainteined among you to be the profession and consent of the whole Land Do all and every one that is member of your Assemblies so professe Nay do they so much as know what it or anie Religion is As then it stands for your profession so must it for your conviction that what is done by or to the Parliament it is reputed as done by or to the whole Land 3. The books also that are published and our testimony otherwise not onely by word and practise of vs all but as is come to passe in many even by death exise imprisonment c. are offred to all alike and knowen so to be throughout the Land If anie then be ignorant or vnconvinced it lyeth vpō themselves who either beleev not what they know or might know further if they would Ier. 9.6 But we may feare it is with you as Ieremy said that in deceit you refuse to know the Lord and his truth Beware therefore least that come vpon you which is spoken of in the Prophets Behold ye despisers and wonder and vanish away for I worke a worke in your dayes a worke which ye will not beleev if any declare it vnto you Hab. 1.5 with Act. 13.40.41 4. Finallie can you give vs a rule or instance of such conuiction as you insinuate Would you have vs go to all your parishes and Assemblies one after another yea to every Prelate and Priest man and womā old and young high and low bond and free throughout the Land and conuince them in particular If you meane so all men surelie will eyther pitty your simplicity or laugh at your follie I omit that
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
sinnes not to rest in any of his vnrighteousnes neyther to towch any vncleane thing at all 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4.5.6 Isa 52.11 2 Cor. 6.17 Yea in that very * Iudg. 2.3 Scripture which is here quoted by himself the Angel of the Lord joyneth with thorne to their sides destruction by there Gods that is by their worship and religion But they hope God vvill in tyme abolish them And so do we have too Yet we must remember that the Scripture sayth this abolition of them shal be by the Spirit of the Lords mouth a I 〈◊〉 of his Gospell in the testimony of his servants 2 Thes 2 8. Rev. 12.11 14.6.7.8.12 It is not then the yeelding vnto them but the witnessing against them by which we can hope it faith for the abolishment of them Neyther do we doubt but they being thus discovered God will also stirre vp the hearts of Kings and Rulers of the earth as already in part he hath begun to hate that whore of Babylon with her abominations and to make her desolate and naked Rev 17 16. Yet too before they come to do this they have given theyr power and authority to the Beast aÌ„d have also fought but not prevayled against the Lambe Iesus Christ and them that are on his side his called and chosen and faithfull witnesses Rev. 17.13.14 Therefore dare not we runne into theyr extremityes to allow eyther by word or deed the corruptions of Antichrist that Man of sinne to receyve in our forehead or hand the print of his Nauie or marke of his ordinances to pursue to death the witnesses of Christ or any way to approve thereof c. But we wayte the appoynted tyme of the Lord for the full abolition and redresse of all these impietyes And in the meanetyme through the grace of Christ we witnes against them Yet being both thankfull to God for any truth they hold and sory also that with it they joyne the abominations of the Man of sinne and do so set a wall between the Lord and themselues 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.5 Ezech. 43.8 Where he sayth they hold most excellent truths and doctrines of salvation as soundly as any Church vpoÌ„ the face of the earth albeit by this it might seem they have very yll neighbours and for so large comparison due proof also may well be desired yet for the present I will but aske how this speach of his agreeth with the testimony of others among them men of far riper iudgement and better discerning who have testifyed of theyr estate and published that * DemoÌ„stration in the Preface to the Reader Albeit many nations vvhich have renounced the vvhore of Rome are heynously sinfull against the glorious Maiesty of Iesus Christ yet there is none in the vvorld so far out of square as is England in retayning the Popish Hierarchy first coyned in the mystery of iniquity and that filthy sinke of the Canon Lavv vvhich vvas first invented and patched together for the confirmation and increasing of the Kingdome of Antichrist Also that with them “ Mr Gilbyes book Pa. 29 many religions are mixed together off Christ and Antichrist of God and the Divell That †Letter to Mr Hooker Pag. 4 vnder the shevv of inveighing against Puritanes the chiefest poynts of Popish blasphemy are many tymes and in many places by divers meâ— not obscurely broached both in Sermons and in VVriting That ♣ 2 Ad non to Parliam Pag 6. although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout great daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth coÌ„prised in the book of God * Ibid. That theyr ovvne Iniunctions Articles Canons c. may not be broken or offended against but vvith more danger then to offend against the Bible That ‡ Ibid. the Bible must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned That * Demonstr in the Prefa to the Gover they give leave to a man to be any thing sauing a sound Christian That †Admon to Parliam Pag 21. theyr publik Baptisme is fâ—ll of childish and superstitious toyes That “ Mr Gibâ—yes book Pag. 2. they eat not the Lords supper but play a pageant of theyr ovvne to blynd the people and keep them still in superstition to make the silly soules beleev that they have an English Masse and so put no difference betvvixt truth and falsehood betvvixt Christ and Antichrist betvvixt God and the Divell Thus do the best of them professe and testify of theyr estate Shall we then think as D.B. would perswade that there is not any Church vpon the face of the earth vvhich doth more soundly retayne the truth and doctrine of saluation God forbid Or doth he meane as Mr Hooker a rare conceyted man of the Prelates crew speaketh of the Church of Rome ♣ Hookers Ecclesiast Policy Book 3. Pag. 130. that it doth still constantly persist in mayne parts of the Christian truth and is of the family of Iesus Christ Yea * Ibid. Book 5. Pag. 188. that it is doe vnto her to be held and reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible Church of Christ If such be D. B. his meaning here for theyr Church yet this doth but verify the Proverbe which sayth As is the Mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 But no matter so long as he can with an hard forehead pretend that theyr errors do not simply ouerthrovv the truth neyther are held of obstinacy but are also for the most part off great controversy and disputation among the learned Yet marke that he saith for the most part Of them all belike he will not speak it Or if he should might he not likewise plead for the holding or intertayning agayne of Auricular Confession Seven Sacraments Setting vp off candels Reservation of the Sacrament Denying of the Cup to the common people Images in Temples for ornament or remembrance Monks Fryers Nunnes c. Or will not the Lutherans when they are driven to a straite thus alledge for themselves Yea doth not * P. Maâ—t Loc. com Epist ad Pereg Lond. Pag. 1128. c 〈◊〉 against whom Peter Martyr did therefore write very sharpely thus plead for the very Anabaptists And will not Hooker think you pretend as much for his Romish Bethal Or doth he it not in deed when he sayth even of Transubstantiation ‡ Hoâ—k Ecclesiast pol. book 5. Pag. 1â—6 that it is a thing vvhich no vvay can eyther further or hinder vs hovvsoever it stand And “ Ibid. Pag. 186. that the very thing vvhich separateth vtterly and cutâ—eth of cleane from the visible Curch of Christ is playne apostasy direct deny all vtter rejection of the VVHOLE ChristiaÌ„ faith as far as the Sonne is professedly different from infidelity Now compare with this also Mr Iacobs Replyes following Pag. 57. 101. 105. 109. 141. 156. 192. And see if theyr plea for the
Auricular confession such like greeuous errors And yet notwithstāding dyed constantly for the truthes they saw some for one and some for another as God made manifest vnto them But may we now therefore so professe and practise in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errors a sufficient defence for vs Yet thus would you beare vs in hand Furthermore tell vs if M. Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacy and functions they had before time received And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had ben so earnest for the remnants of Popery in his time retained Besides who knoweth not that when M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. died Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had them selves nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for And not that onely but were members of that persecuted Church in Queene Maries dayes which was seperated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned in covenaunt by voluntary profession to obey the truth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did vnto death in the truth they saw though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wants and errors Yet who is so blind or besotted as not to see that their errors may not be our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for whatsoever trueth God revealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs shall rise in iudgment against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath given vs “ Psal 119.105.128 Gal. 1.8.9 6.16 Deut. 12.32 Rev. 22.18.19.20 his vvord to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane you to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoever Should not ‡ Esa 8.19 all people enquier at God or would you have vs go from the liuing to the dead From God and his word to men and their errors This doubtlesse is that wherevnto you would bring vs and whereby you mislead your favorites as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say you next Secondly you tell vs and wish it to be noted as we also do That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely These say you are writtten The second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward governement and ceremonies These you say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus you say you hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it For aunswer hereof First we aske what Scripture you have for it Secōdly we alledg against it these Scriptures and the like 1 Tim. 3.15 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. chap. 14.23 15. chap. 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephe. 4.11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 1 Cor. 4.17 5. ◠11. 12. 14. Chap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6.1.6 2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18.15.16.17 28.18.19.20 Thirdly let it be observed that your self here graunt and cannot deny but all the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies of your Church are invented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not vvritten in the vvord of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned to at all Fourthly see how neare you are driven that are glad to run back into the Papists tentes where yet you know there is no succour Before you pleaded possession time out of mind now you tell vs of ordināces vnwritten c. Are not these meere popish shiftes even the old worne arguments of Antiquity and Vnvvritten verities so often and so much stood vpon by the Papists Alas that you should plead to be true Christians and yet thus openly take part with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and wil verifie his word That they which receiue not the loue of the trueth 2 Thes 2.10.11.12 that they may be saued he vvill send them strong delusion to beleeue lyes that they may be damned Fifthly you make the ordinances touching outward gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither vvritten at all This is very strange divinity And thus I shew it It is an ordinance not only concerning the inward but also the outward governemēt of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof Is it therefore no matter of faith It concerneth the outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the Church or no Doth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the vvord and hearing of it preached administration and receiuing of the Sacraments are matters cōcerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church Doe they not therefore touch fayth Admonition and excommunication concerne also the outward governement of the Church Do they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this Divinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper being Ceremonies shall with you be no matters of faith at all Yet here you stay not but adde moreover That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church be arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate not vvritten nor certaine c. Wherevpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the Scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or Canterbury be head and Archbishop of the Church of God 2. Whether Iewes onely of the Tribe of Leui may now minister the holy things of God in his Church 3. Whether Christ hath given any giftes and set any Offices in his Church for the Ministery and guidance thereof 4. Whether prayer must be in a knowen or vnknowen toung 5. Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored 6. Whether the Church may excomunitate 7. Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunicatiō be to be regarded 8. Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacraments 9. Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other Ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Lavv be now to be vsed 10. Whether the Heathenish sacrifices and vvorship be to be ioyned withall 11. Whether creame oyle salt spittle crossing and coniuring may be vsed in Baptisme 12. Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to be given to the lay people as you cal them 13. Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the Church 14. Whether the Iewish and the Popish Vestments Fasts and holy dayes are to be observed And a
against it the estate of such to be damnable It is high time then for you M. Iacob and for D. B. who made the preface to your book and for all such whose consciences are convicted of the Antichristianitie of your Prelates and the rest of your abominations as divers times in this book your self accknowledge it is high time I say for you and all such to be warned by Corahs destruction And we now have as good warrant by your owne graunt to separate from you and all such as the Israelites had from Corah and his companie Except peradventure you thinke the Ministerie and ordinances of Christ to be of lesse moment then those of Moses or Christ the Sonne to be worthy lesse honour then Moses the servant But see more yet hereof in the 6. Reason following After this you turne back to somewhat handled in the entrance of this Exception Thus you runne in and out a man cannot tell where to have you For the point you speak of I leave it to the Reader to iudge comparing your writing and mine togeather whether I have not iustly charged you for going about to iustifie your estate by the example of Cranmer Ridley c. Now I am glad to see you acknowledge the matters controverted betweene vs to be your errours For by this it followeth that you see the contrarie truth which discovereth these to be errours And then your self I trust will not denie but that you are bound vtterlie to forsake these and to walke in the truth revealed vnto you vnles you had rather erre with Antichrist to destruction then follow Christ to salvation But you trust it is sound to iustifie by the example of the Martyrs that these corruptions abolish not you from Christ as theirs did not them Nay Mr. Iacob it is very vnsound for you or any the like to reason thus For besides the many differences betwene you and the Martyrs alreadie declared tell me your self if the Hussites so called should at this day reason after this manner viz. Although we retaine the Masse transubstantiation seven Sacraments Auricular confession and such like yet these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ any more then they did Iohn Hus and the other Martyrs that held and vsed them If I say they should now reason thus for themselves would not your self say their reason were vnsound But further if the Martyrs you speak of had seen these things to be errors and continewed in them pursued those that reproved them and against the knowen truth sought to have dawbed vp their erroneous building as you Mr. Iacob and the like among you do at this day we could not then have so esteemed them as now we do This therefore will help you nothing at all We have better hope in this respect of such in England as to this day have not discerned the Antichristian abominations among you then of you and the like strugling Pharisees for whome we feare it will be harder in the day of iudgment then for them At length you come to look at my severall aūswers To look at them I say For finding them all to heavie to lift you leave them as you found them that is firme and strong against your Churches estate For the first you would in it deceaue the Reader thus In your former Replie to this Exception you said * Pag. 28. you held Christs ordinances to be of two sorts written or vnvvritten the first necessary the second arbitrary c. and that you thought no Scripture vvas against this but rather for it In my aunswer herevnto first I asked ‡ Pag. 30. vvhat Scripture you had for this that is for this opinion of yours touching Christs ordinances Now so besides that you bring no Scripture for it you would make the Reader beleev that I asked for Scriptures to approve those orders vvhich you expresly called errors But who seeth not that I demaunded Scripture for that opinion of your Church against which you were perswaded there was not any And how then will those two stand together vnles you would have vs thinke you are so sottish as to beleeve there is no Scriptures against errors The like follie and evill dealing you shew againe in your Reply to the second When you said you thought no Scripture vvas against your foresayd opinion of Christs ordinances but rather for it was it not meet that of so many as are against it I should at least mention some Now it had ben your part either to have renoūced that false opinion with acknowledgment that the Scripture is against it or els to have aunswered the Scriptures by me alleadged But I easily beleev they load you and are to heavie for you to beare or withstand I◠your Reply to the third let all men iudge if you deale not exceeding vnconscionably Are not these your owne words which you vse in your first Reply to this Exceptio◠‡ Before in pag. 28. This we generally professe and practise We hold Christs ordināces to be of two sorts Such we hold all outward governement and ceremonies to be Thus we hold and thus we practise c. When you do so often say We professe We hold We practise Will not the Reader vnderstand your self to be one with the rest that do so hold professe and practise Againe when you say Thus we practise is it your meaning that the State doth practise thus but not your self How is it then that you preach by vertue of your Priesthood receyued from the Prelates that you are silent at their pleasure that you appeare before them at their Courts and appoyntment that you administer and receive the Sacraments with them according to their book c. Or if your meaning be in these words thus we practise to include your self with the rest why should we not also take you to be included in the other when you say thus we hold thus we professe c. Would you have vs think that in these things your iudgement is one and your practtse another Fy of such halting Howsoeuer you blind the eyes of men be sure God is not mocked He seeth and will bring vpon you that wretched hypocrisy if you still persist Further it is to be mynded that now you disclayme your Churches opinion towching Christs ordinances and consequently towching his Prophecy Priesthood Kingdome as he is there receyved Why can you not then endure that we should do likewise Or how is it that you have pleaded for it all this tyme and now leave it without help when it needeth most But by this is evident that your Churches estate is a ‡ Mat. 12.25 Kingdome divided against it self and therefore ruinous not like long to endure The state holdeth one thing you another a third sort agrees with neither Babylon †Rev. 16.19 the great city when it is readie to fall shall be devided in three parts To conclude by this opinion and practise you make your state to stand
you for these things is such as damnatory sentence may be threatned against them take you heed Mr. Iacob that God being it not vpon your head for one if you proceed in those sinnes still as hitherto you have done And let your disciple D. B. that Apostate take heed of it for another and likewise all the rest whomsoever you meane to be of those some you speak of It is the word of God that doth and must judge both now and in the great day Ioh. 12.48 Psal 149.9 2 Chrō 19.6 1 Cor. 5.3.4.12.13 The judgement that is done according vnto it by whomsoever it be is not mans but the Lords Your hearts and consciences I leave them to the Lord. It is your constitution and practise I speake of and of the sundrie meanes of knowledge and conviction in these things vouchsafed to you which the Martyrs in former times had not This you knew I doubt not though you would not see it because you know not how to aunswer it And thus the two differences between you and the Martyrs excepted against do both of them stand firme against you But why say you nothing at all to the other differences which in the same places I noted aswell as these Can you not bring so much as colour of exception against them Why then do you not yeeld vnto them Or will you that we take your silence for a consent Also why aunswer you not that obiection when I said ‡ Pag. 67. you might thus justify the callings and estate of the Monks Fryers c. and the having of spirituall communion vvith them because divers such have ben Martyrs giving their lives for the truth they saw vvho never doubted of the lawfulnes of their callngs and estate Do you therefore hold their offices and functiōs to be lawfull Or will you deny that this hath ben the case of such If you do then I alledge for proof Eckhardus a Dominican fryer Thomas Rhedonensis a Carmelite frier Henry Voes Iohn Esch William Neel Doctor Cacalla Augustine friers Ioannes Mollius a gray frier Ierome Savonarola Dominicus Siluester c. All of them being Fryers and Monks yet Martyrs of Iesus faithfullie witnessing the truth which they saw even vnto death Act. Monum 5. edit Pag. 387. 613. 672. 799. 829. 850. 854. 4. For the fourth point it is so very playne and pregnant as you can say nothing against it but refer vs to that you have said before which I have shewed to be nothing at all to the purpose So it remaineth firme against you And so also do the reasons mentioned 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Against which you neither have said nor can say any thing to serve your turne Say but yourself and speak plainly whether that general clause Towch no vncleane thing include not both your and all other abominations of Antichrist breaking the second commandement One of your selves “ Triall of Subscriptiō Pag. 7. alledging this scripture but against the ceremonies reteined in your Church reasoneth thus from it and ānexeth that note in the Margent which I have here set downe withall †2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 This forbiddeth the vvhole corruptiō in religiō of heathen or Antichrist although principally their false doctrin What communion saith he hath the light of the word vvith the darknes of mans inventions What concord hath Christ our Saviour vvith Belial the Antichrist of Rome And vvhere greement hath the Temple of God vvhich is our selves vvith Idols of humane traditions Wherefore ♣ Rev. 18.2.3.4 come out of Babylon that is the confusion or confused vvorship and gouernment of Rome and tovvch no vncleane thing These are his words Now tell me I pray you is this Scripture and reason strong against your ceremonies And is it not much more against your confusion Leiturgie Hierarchie c. which are meerly the inventions of man even of Antichrist that man of sinne Or will you be like the Papists also in this to limit the bounds of the Scripture that it may be applied no further nor othervvise but as pleaseth you That the place of Ezechiel is directly of the breach of the Second commaundement Ezec. 43.8 is as cleare as the Sunne at noone day Beside the reasons which I alledged before those so many clauses My thres holds theirs My posts and theirs Me and them Myne holy Name with their abominations these I say so many concurring in this one verse make it without all question that he speaketh directly of ioyning their inventions with Gods ordinances in the worship of the true God Which is the direct breach of the Second not of the First cōmandement The First is directlie towching Gods inward worship as to have love trust feare him onely as God c. The Secōd is directlie of outward worship For Images and bowing downe to them “ Exo. 20.4.5 there mentioned are outward things If this distinction be not observed the first and second cōmaundement will be confounded as the Papists whom you follow would have it But if it be observed it confoundeth both you and them M. Iacob and all your vayne pretences By this also it is evident that the Idolatrie of Ahas Manasses Amon c. whereof you speak was directlie against the Second cōmādement Ahaz to give an instance in one of the grossest is said to have * 2 Chrō 28 23. sacrificed to the Gods of Damascus because he †2 King 16 10-15 made an altar like the altar of Damascus though yet notwithstanding he offered thereon to the true God both such offerings and at such seasons as the Lord had appointed His sinne then was against the Second commandement directlie in that he made and vsed another altar then God had prescribed But your ignorance of the Scripture-phrase deceiveth you For when you read that Ahaz Manasses or others sacrificed to the Gods of the Nations you vnderstand that they worshipped some other then the true God against the First cōmandement whereas the Scripture meaneth they worshipped the true God after the … er as those nations served their Idols and so brake the Second cōmaundement You may see it in that example of Ahaz before and most plainly in Deut. 12.30.31.32 And likewise if Naaman worshipping God had bowed downe before the Idoll in Rimmons Temple but in heart honored the God of Israell he had broken the Secōd not the First cōmandement and might be said to have worshipped the Idoll Rimmon 2 King 5.17.18 The reason of all these is because God accounteth them to be served whose ordinances are observed and himself not to be had as God when his true vvorship is not had Now so must we esteeme things and so the Scripture speaketh not as men judge but as God esteemeth Minde this well Mr. Iacob for your worship of Antichrist But of these things more hereafter when wee come to speak of the third Scripture 2 King 17. in the sixt Reason following 2 King 17.
erected visible Idols 1 Kin. 12.28 and very filthy ones even calves and brute beasts The same you might alledge of the Israelites with Aaron Exod. 32.4 whose sinne notwithstanding was directlie against the Second commandement as you confesse yours also is Besides Mr Iacob have not you and your Church too your visible Idols What els I pray you are your Service book your books of Canons and Homilies your Book of ordering Priests and Prelates taken out of the Popes pontificall your Idoll-shepheards Zach. 11.17 even the Prelates and Priests themselves such as to whom for any sound knowledge they have in themselves or good instruction they give or receive of others may fitly be applied that saying of the Prophet concerning Idols They have a mouth and speak not they have eyes and see not Psal 115.5.6 they have eares and heare not c. Where in the next place to lessen your sinne in respect of Ieroboās you say you professe your Ecclesiasticall orders to be but indifferent things for order and comelines onely how absurd againe and shameles is your pretence Do you in deed professe that your Book of common prayer with the other aforsaid are but indifferēt things for order and comelines only If so then are they not the true worship and service of God commāded in his word to be observed of his Church For that is not an indifferent thing but straitlie enjoined to be kept without spot or chaunge vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Exod. 20.4.5.6 1 Tim. 6.13.14 Col. 2.8.22.23 Rev. 22.18.19 Againe do you professe the confusion of all maner people in the body of your Church to be an indifferent thing for order and comelines onely If so then you might aswell tell vs you professe darkenes to be light disorder and confusion to be order and comelines c. Or do you professe that your Archbishops and other Prelates and Priests with their offices and callings taken out of the cup of Babylon your forbidding of meats and mariage called by the Apostle doctrines of Divels your retaining the Apocrypha Books in your publik worship Pag 63. c which have many lyes and great blasphemy in them Do you I say professe that these with the rest of your abominations ‡ before rehearsed are but indifferent things onely for order and comelines And is this in deed the profession of your generall State as ‡ here you note in the margent Then sure you are not far behind Ieroboam Pag. 110. if not far worse in some respects And by this it is evident to note it by the way that your generall State is conuinced of great impietie inasmuch as howsoever it stood for the controversy otherwise yet none can be so grosse as to deny but thus far you are convinced that these are not indifferent things c. You had need also look well about you what to aunswer for speaking in such maner of your generall State Now for Ieroboam what will you say if he also held this as the chief and mayne thing ♣ that the true God who is infinite and every where present be worshipped but whether at Ierusalem or at Dan Ioseph Antiq Iud. lib. 8. cap. 3. whether in Salomons Temple or at the Calves which he had now made whether by the Levites or by others consecrated to that service c. that these and the like he accounted and vsed as indifferent things as might seem best to serve for the opportunity of their dwelling for that estate c. See Iosephus Antiquityes if he do not testify thus much concerning him affirming further that by these meanes he deceyved the people and drew them from the true worship of God which in the end was the cause of their vtter ruine Lo here the fruit and yssue of such pretences Further you alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 Where Ieroboam is said to appoint Priests for the high places and for Divels and for the Calves he had made So have you also appointed Priests such as God never ordeined and that for your high places and Calves that is for your Idols Temples and Service the places and maner of your publik worship to this day Of which three points viz your Priesthood Idoll-temples A treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England and false worship I have written in another treatise to which I refer you Where it is said Ieroboā appointed Priests for Divels you are to know if already you do not that this is spoken mystically in respect of Gods account and as it was in deed not that Ieroboam and the people did so think and esteem it themselves And that you may have lesse preiudice of this which I say heare it of Peter Martyr who writeth thus of it Ieroboam and his complices said they worshipped not the Calves but Iehovah in that figure visible signe but the Scripture in the Chronicles witnesseth their imagination to be frustrate because in deed they did that service not to Iehovah but to Divels P. M. Lo. com p. 1130. Epist ad Eccles peregrin Lond. I will also help you to vnderstand this point by a like example to which I suppose you will yeeld The Papists in Gods account are worshippers of Divels Rev. 9.20 Yet in their owne judgement they do not so but pretend to worship God himself Even so it was with Ieroboam Further for the more clearing of this matter see what it is in deed thus to worship Divels And heare it of Mr Iunius whose judgement I know in this case you will judge lesse partiall He in his notes vpon Lev. 17.7 saith thus Men sacrifice to Divels if they sacrifice eyther in other place or after other rite and maner then the Lord hath prescribed See Deut. 32.17 1 Cor. 10.20 And this he sheweth was the sinne of the Iewes both in Egypt and in the wildernes first by Exod. 32. chapter then by ‡ Lev. 17.7 this verse where the word hereafter or no more is vsed and lastly by Stephens testimony Act. 7.42 Ieroboam then worshipped Divels not in his owne purpose and judgement but in Gods account because his worship of God was in other place and after other maner then the Lord had apppointed Now seing you graunt this here to be true of Ieroboam how will you denie it either for the Papists from whom you have borrowed your worship or for your selves the children of their fornications And that you may see it is a thing needfull to be mynded in your Church-constitution note for your selves that * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 the erroneous doctrines of Antichrist are by the Lord accounted and in the Scripture called doctrines of Divels †Rev. 9.20 the worship of Antichrist the worship of Divels ♣ Rev. 16.13.14 the Ministers of Antichrist the spirits of Divels ‡ Rev. 18.2 the confusion of all prophane people and abomination in the body of Antichrists Church and religion the habitation of Divels c.
and therefore the Argument strong and of force Thirdlie the particulars before mentioned being found in your Church of England will testifie it also to be verified of you Lastly although many of the abominations of the “ vvhores cup of Babylon be now cast out of England for which we prayse God yet so long as you reteine the Hierarchy Leiturgie confusion of people Canons Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 Excommunications c. derived vnto you from that mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth we must needs beleeve and alleadge against you the Scripture and common proverbe which saith As is the mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 For a conclusion let it heer be observed how to defend your estate you are glad to runne into the Papists Tentes and to take vp their worne and rustie weapons which have ben of no force to defend themselves but have often and justly ben turned into their owne bowels Rhemes Annot vpon 1 Tim. 4.3 Read the †Rhemes Annotations vpon this place and see if heer you would not avoyd the evidence of this Scripture against you by the verie same shift and answer as the wretched Iesuites there would turne it from their mother of Rome that is by posting it over from themselves to Martion and Tatianus Read it and note it well H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 7. Reason TO this your defence of your Seuenth Reason I say Though euery where you are very vnreasonable yet no where you seeme more vnconscionable and wilfull then here A strange vntrueth First doe I say No to the Apostles Yea 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 That they who forbid Mariage and Meates doe fall from the faith Doe I say noe Is this your conscience Say I not expresly They doe in these points departe from the faith but not Absolutly and wholy Secondly doeth it follow by my words as you affirme That none departe from the faith but those that departe totally wholy and absolutely whereby all the vildest Heretikes should be iustified as Arrians Nestorians Anabaptists c. Doe I say so Is this also your conscience Againe doe I say The text doth not reproue all the Papists in their forbidding of Mariage and Meates but only Martion and Tatianus of old Doe I say any such thing Nay say I not expreslie the contrarie Are you then a man of conscience Doe you suffer for conscience Know therefore that this I say and my wordes before doe import so much That whosoever doe forbid mariage or meates doe depart from the faith But note some doe more some lesse There are some that doe simply and fundamentally and others in some sorte Men departe from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes First they which doe erre in such maine poincts as doe vtterly abolish vs from Christ and destroy the Foūdation thus doe Arrians Manichees Seruetus Papistes c. Secondly such as holding the Foundation in doctrine sound doe desperatly professe and teach some what els against the manifest light that is in them so Martion and Tatianus doe Fundamentally and simply fall from the faith because they simply forbid those good ordinances of God Marriage and Meates euen against the light of conscience nature togeather wherewith a liuely saving faith cannot possibly stand Now the Papists in this do departe from the faith also but that is only in some sorte or in parte because they forbid these things not absolutly but vnto some sometimes They that depart thus from the faith may bee true Christians notwithstanding yea they are certenly if they be no worse in any thing els albeit you deny it here most fondly without all sence To which end you most vnlernedly and vngodly apply those scriptures A litle leauen leueneth the lump A few dead flyes make the oyntment to stinke Scriptures abused and a litle poyson bringeth death Will you haue no tainte of euil in a Christian but it quencheth the life of God in vs needes Is it not possible your selves might hold some such errors yet remayne true Christians notwithstanding Then if Papists vvere no vvorse but in those errors only they might be true Christians notwithstanding But Martion and Tatianus doe wholy departe from the faith not but that they beleued some truthes but in that they †The same did Corah Dathan and Abiram likewise See before in āswer to the 2. Exception the 2. Reply presumptuously quenched the instinct of nature conscience as I haue said Here then it appeareth how wicked a sclaunder it is that you say I runne into the Papistes tents and fight with their weapons doe iump with the Remists annotations on 1 Tim. 4.1 2 3. Iudge now by this that I haue said whether I doe or no. And note that I save that they be either Apostates or departers from the faith not onely who fall totally as you sclaunder me that I saye but also who fall fundameneally that is eyther the first way or second as I haue afore saide And so doe these grosse Heretikes whom you mention 1 Arius Servetus Papists c. 2. Martion Tatianus Iudas Corah Balaam the Apostate Israelites c. Thus then your questions and demaundes about the Papists their errors I passe by as more vaine then pertinent Onelie note vvithall if this reason of yours vvere good it maketh Mr Cranmer Ridley c. to be departers from the faith and no true Christians Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reason LEt others iudge Mr Iacob whether in your self this be not in deed found true and vndenyable which you do vainelie charge me withall Though every vvhere you are very vnreasonable yet no vvhere more vnconscionable and vvilfull then here You have contradicted the Apostle and yet have neither conscience nor will to acknowledge it no not when it is told you I proved my Assumption by the Apostles Yea 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Your denyall thereof then must needs be as much as to say No to his Yea. Neither is there anie help for it in your vaine additions of totally simply fundamentally absolutely c. They are rather so many witnesses against your self as anie men of vnderstanding may and will discerne Pag. 136. c But for this see further in my former aunswer Against which you cannot say a word but in stead of replying fall to plaine railing For the conclusions I gathered from your words about Departers from the faith the Papists and other Hereticks let the iudgement be the Readers whether they follow not necessarilie vpon your erroneous and most absurd assertions and distinctions Yea see both for them and for your contradiction of the Apostle if even here where you seek to colour and avoide them you fall not into them againe Here you would haue me know that this you say That whosoever do forbid mariage and meats do depart from the faith Well I heare you say so But a while after I heare you say this too Pag.
thus in deed you do still shew your brasen forhead and seared conscience Towching Corah Dathan Abiram c. besides that I have aunswered to your Reply in the Second exception Pag. 53. I have also purposely in many particulars compared their case and yours together in the Sixt Reason Pag. 130. Which if you can you may refute in your next or by silence give place to the truth Where I proved by sundry other Scriptures compared with this to Timothy Pag. 139. 140 that the Romish harlot and her children are here properly and specially deciphered you aunswer not one word vnto it Nay you are so turned out of all your shifts as even now when you would shift it of to Martion and Tacianus you giue more evidēce that it resteth on your owne heads rather then on theirs And this I prove by comparing together your saying here with the Apostles there You say here that Martion and Tatianus did Fundamentally fall from the faith because they simply forbad those good ordinances of God Mariage and meats even against the light of conscience and nature presumptuously quenching the instinct thereof Now if this were so Mr Iacob then by your owne saying they did not speak falsehood in hypocrisy but in open and presumptuous blasphemie Whereas the Apostle noteth such expresselie as speak lyes in hypocrisy 1 Tim. 4.2.3 And such in very deed I proved your case and the Papists to be in my former aunswer Pag. 137. c. Against which you can bring nothing at all Yet you blush not to say you passe by my puestions and demaunds about the Papists and their errors as more vayne then pertinent Whereas in deed the truth is that the questions and reasons do so nearly concerne both the Papists and your selves as you dare not medle with them Otherwise if you could you should at least not onely have said but some way proued them to be vaine But this labour it may be your reserve to your next Reply If so then examine them in particular and shew the vanity of them from point to point Els know they are so pertinēt as here againe you are brought to a playne Non plus And because in my former aunswer I did but brieflie towch that point of your speaking lyes through hypocrisy I will for further evidence of this Scripture against you mention here some few particulars mo 1. It cannot be denyed but you worship God by a Service book taken out of the Popes portuis and by many other the inventions af men Yet you pretend that you worship God in spirit and truth according to his word A lye in hypocrisy 2. Your Churches Ministers and people stand subiect to other Archbishops and Lordbishops then Iesus Christ and to their Courts Canons Excommunications c. Yet you beare men in hād that you receive Christ only as Lord and King of the Church and obey his Lawes and ordinances Another lye in hypocrisy 3. Your Hierarchy and whole Ministery from the highest Archbishop to the lowest Priest is Antichristian in you offices entrance administration maintenance Yet who knoweth not that in all these you perswade the world you are the Ministers of Iesus Christ Falsehood in hypocrisy 4. You still banish and imprison vs because we separate from your Antichristian estate and endevour to keep the faith and ordinance of Christ Yet you give out that we suffer more then we need that we are iustlie punished as ennemyes to the State as Schismaticks Hereticks seditious c. Another lye in hypocrisy 5. Finallie even the truths which you teach and professe what are they els in your estate but the sheeps clothing of your wolvish Hierarchy and Priesthood by meanes whereof you deceive and devoure the more Lo here a tast of your speaking lyes in hypocrisy and if you will also of your consciences burnt vvith an hote yron Besides these in your Church note also in your self in particular how even here you do sclaunder me and yet pretend that it is I which sclaunder you Neither sufficeth it you in this one place to do it once as I shewed before Pag. 149. But here againe you will needs double it that we might the better note this propertie in your self which yet you shame not falsely to lay vpon me And because you will not seem to want colour for it you pretend this that I say the words of your first Reply imported such onely to depart from the faith as fall from it totally To depart from the faith I say so as in that estate they cannot by the word of God be estemed true Christians Reason 7. Pag. 135. For this was the point which I proved and you denyed Now towching this matter the case is so verie plaine as I neither need nor will do anie more for your conviction therein but set downe your owne words as they were at first and then with a note concerning your dealing synce leave the iudgement thereof to the Reader when he shall have compared together the words of your Reply and of my Aunsvver Neither of which you love to keep vnto For your words then thus it was When against your Church I had proved by the Apostles testimonie that forasmuch as all such depart from the faith as forbid Mariage and Meats therefore also your Church so doth vvhich not only forbiddeth these things the true Ministery vvorship of God vvithall but also commaundeth a false c. You did then answer thus word for word The Popish forbidding of Mariage and of Meats if they vvere no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy ceremonies simply Neither do they make vs the Protestans to be such The Papists fall from Christ in other points namely The Papall supremacy c. These were your words then The other clauses which now you have annexed in the Margent and Reply it self though they help you no whit neither yet were they added synce you receyved my Answer as I noted before Pag. 141. Let the Reader mynd this And withall these two things 1. That now you note in the margent both “ here and in the Eight Reason following Pag. 136. that you think the vvord fundamentally fitter to be here vsed then the word totally And why fitter I pray you but because this word totally implyeth that directlie which I inferred therevpon in my Answer Pag. 136. c. 2. That whereas you did at first annexe a clause concerning the Apostles meaning that in these points they depart from the faith not absolutly and vvholy this also is so far from helping you as it maketh altogether against you howsoever you would perswade otherwise in this your latter Reply both in the beginning and end thereof Pag. 141. 142. Which will yet more fully appeare even to the most simple whensoever you shall answer the particular questiōs and obiectiōs which I propounded in my former Answer concerning the Papists and your selves For which
Church in their Masse and Ministery as with yours in your worship and Hierarchy But further by this aunswer you yeeld that the Martyrs spake and wrote against your Church estate Which being so whether do you or we I pray you the better You in following the error of their practise Or we in receyving the truth of their testimonie And then if all that you say be graunted is it ought but this that you have the weaknes and sinne of their practise for a cloke of your standing in evill whereas we have the truth and soundnes of their iudgement for our walking in that which is good Now let others iudge which of vs follow them best and have the best interest in them And let it also be mynded that they then comming newlie out of the darknes of Poperie and being exercised also with other points of that religion neither did nor could so consider of this matter as synce their tyme in this clearer light it hath in our dayes ben discussed Lastlie if you will have this answer of yours go for currant then will I by like reason prove that you may also submit to the Popes authority and receive all the corruptions of the Romish Church And albeit that which I have alreadie said of the auncient Martyrs before be sufficient for proof hereof yet will I shew it you further thus The Protestants you know do vsually alledg against the Popes Antichristian authority and other corruptions of that Church the sayings of Bernard Beda c. Suppose now the Papists should answer as you do here This maketh stronger against you seing for all that yet they themselues refused not to yeeld to the Popes supremacy and to partake with this Church as being Christs c. What would you reply againe Either you must say as the truth is that this answer is wandring and frivolous or els you must needs confesse that by this reason of yours you may also receive the Pope and all that popery which is alreadie cast out of England and communicate therewith Which I pray God be not the issue of this your pleading for and partaking with the remnants of Antichrist yet held in your Church To that where I demaunded If it were so that the reformed Churches we our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme had given allowance of your present estate and Church-constitution what would this help you when as the word of God condemneth you c. You aunswer that those witnesses are sufficient for this that we hold a Paradox So the testimony of Man if you had it is of more force with you then the warrant of Gods word And whatsoever the Scripture saith yet to you it is a Paradox if it be gainsaid by the reformed Churches c. Blush for shame Mr Iacob and fear any more to publish such godles assertions and shameles Paradoxes All your clipping and perverting of my words will not help you Neyther your new supply of the whole Churches iudgement practise with all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300 or 1400 yeares Chrisostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom Austen Ambrose c. As if they had knowen and practised the Antichristian abominations now had in your Church But when you bring proof of this your lavish speach it will then be tyme ynough to aunswer it In the meane tyme heare what Mr Tindall that faithfull Martyr sayd speaking of the Prelates and Priests in his age for their so alledging the Fathers as you do As for the holy Doctors saith he as Augustine Hierome Cyprian Chrysostomus and Bede will they not heare If they wrote any thing negligently as they were men that draw they cleane contrary to their meaning and thereof triumphe they Those Doctors knew of none authority that one Bishop should have above another neyther thought or once dreamed that ever any such should be This is Mr Tindall his speach and observation Which you may mynd I note it now for this that you may see how your Forefathers alledged the Doctors and how it stands you vpon well to mynd what proof is brought from them whether it be for this point which here he nameth or for anie other corruptions of Antichrist retayned among you Some of which I have rehearsed * before in particular Pag. 63. c. for which I will expect your proof from such antiquity as you speak of ad Kalendas Graecas in deed never And yet I know that both 1400 yeares synce and before also they began to declyne very much But Antichrist notwithstanding came not of a long tyme after to that height and impiety wherein now he is to be seen and felt both in your Church and in your mother of Rome Note also that when all is said that can be in this matter it is but a Popish shift to fly from the Scriptures to the Fathers and an impious Paradox to exalt their sayings who are knowen to have erred in manie things above the word of God which alone is the rule of truth and can not lye at all Finally you say that to try you I propound a many of questions Yet they are but seven in all In deed I think it doth and will try both you and your fellow Priests to aunswer them Such superfluous stuffe they are And have you not read too Iob. 32.3 how ‡ Iobs frends condemned him and yet could fynd no answer Apply it to your selves and your dealing with vs. But you say you would first have vs cleare this present question and our reasons thereabout Well besides that is already done the deciding of these few questions will fully and plainly do it Let others iudge if it would not And mynd you then what you have answered To shut vp all you tell vs aforehand you have no leysure to meddle further Very like so You have leysure ynough to write book after book to no purpose yet you have not so much as to aunswer a few short questions which may end all the controversie between vs. He that can not see how you would shift of the matter and yet labour to withold the truth in vnrighteousnes what doth he see The Lord open your eyes Mr Iacob that your self may see and mynd it As for others that be seduced by you and the rest of your Prophets teaching lyes let them in tyme afore it be to late apply vnto you and themselves in such estate that which is written The leaders of the people cause them to erre and they that are led by them are devoured Esa 9.16 Therefore also let them all even whosoever feare God and will be assured of his mercy give no rest to their soules vntill with the Prophet they can say in truth of heart and shew it forth in their practise My portion O Lord I have said to keep thy words I have considered my wayes turned my feet into thy testimonyes I made hast delayed not to keep thy commaundements I have refrayned my feet from every evill way
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
intolerable blame and foule error whereof you speak As for example you professe the forbidding of meats and mariage at certaine tymes the worship prescribed in your Service-book and other the like by read prayer devised Homilyes Saints dayes Communion to one alone women to baptize Ministery of Priests and Prelates Apocrypha and the rest before mētioned Pag. 63. c. Are these after the rule of the written Law Next followed the Assumption to be aunswered which was this Such is the ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblyes of England as they worship God after a false maner Pag. 106. never appointed by him self nor allowed in his vvord This was proved by your confusion of People counterfet Ministery Service c. Now neyther this Assumption nor proof thereof did or do you denie So here againe you yeeld the cause And whereas you were told of hiding the fowle heap of your Abominations vnder the terme of Ceremonies you neither denie it nor amend it but do still vse the same fraude Mind it and amend it hereafter Now where you say it is a iust defence of your Ministery vvorship estate to be as tovvching the substance and foundation of Christianity sound and acceptable to God if your Assemblies throughout the Land have not their consciences convicted therein You may blush for shame to speak so sencelesslie If you meane that your Ministerie worship and estate is not in truth of the substance and foundation of Christianitie then by your owne words you stand in a straunge and fearfull estate besides that you speak not to the point in hand and so there is in your speach no sence at all Or if you meane that howsoever your Ministery worship and estate be whether approved of God or not whether Antichristian or whatsoever els yet your Church-constitution is for substance and foundation of Christianitie sound and acceptable to God then is your speach againe most senceles and absurd For how is it possible that your Ministerie worship and estate should be condemned by God Antichristian or the like and yet your Church-constitution either have the substance and foundation of Christianitie or be in such a way sound and acceptable to God To be disallowed of God and to be acceptable to him are contraries Finally howsoever your meaning be yet still your speach is senceles and vntrue For * Luk. 12.47.48 Hos 4 1-6 2 Thes 1.8 Rev. 14.9.10.11 sinne is sinne before God and so to be estemed of vs though not so grievous before as after conviccion And mens consciences often are convinced when they will not acknowledge it but withstand the truth notwithstanding ‡ Esa 6.9.10 Act. 14.2 28 23-27 Ier. 17.9.10 For both which see the Scriptures here quoted Which refute your assertion sufficientlie Besides that you have without all sence fancyed to your self such a maner of conviction as cannot eyther be knowen or expected Of which point I have spoken before Pag 42.43 How straunge is it also that you say next you knovv this is no iust defence of your vvhole Ministery estate and maner of vvorship vvhich you never intended you say much lesse professed to iustify How agrees this with the title of your book which you call A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Or will you seem to plead for that which you know can not be iustifyed Or will you have vs admit of an vnjust defence For your self confesse this is not a iust one Or is the Office Entrance Administration and Maintenance of some of your Ministers lawfull of others vnlawful and so likewise some parts of your estate and worship For you say here this defends not the vvhole Deale plainelie then Mr Iacob and shew which you hold lawfull which vnlawfull and your proof of both So will appeare I doubt not even by your self both that our separation is just and of necessity to be made from your Ministery vvorship c. and that your defence of them is most silly and senceles That which you speak of Aarons line I said before was a mistaking now I say it is a grosse error And you may be ashamed thus to hide it whenas you should rather acknowledge it when it is shewed you As for the meaning Pag. 105. which you have now coined and newlie added in the margent your words will not beare it Let others judge Thus the defence you make for your self is as absurd as that which you make for your Church After this you are earnest to perswade vs that the vvord of God though it be as plaine and full in it self yet is not so plaine for our vnderstanding vse novv as it vvas for the Ievves vnder the Lavv. An assertion most false most impious such as the very Papists I think would be ashamed of Was it ever heard afore that the Gospell of Christ should be more obscure for our vnderstanding and vse now then the Law of Moses was for the Iewes then Was not Christ think you as willing as able as carefull to explane it for our vnderstanding and vse as Moses was for theirs Or doth not Christ give his Spirit to his people now aswel as he did then Or hath he taken away those dimme shadowes and ceremonies to bring now a cloud of darkenes in stead thereof Or is it false which the Prophets foretold and the Apostles testify to be accomplished for abundance of knowledge and vnderstāding in the tyme of the Gospell far above that which was in the tyme of the Law Compare together these Scriptures following and see if the contrary to that you say be not most true Esa 11.9 Ier. 31.33.34 with 2 Cor. 3. cap. 4.3.4 Heb. 8.10.11 Ioel. 2.28.29 vvith Act. 2.17.18 Hab. 2.2 2 Pet. 1.19 1 Ioh. 5.20 Rev. 1.3 22.18.19 But you pretend three reasons of this your assertion So also did Saul of his action 1 Sam. 13.11.12 Neither was Ieroboam himself without colour for his devised worship as I noted before But this is the auncient cloke of sinne with which it hath ben woont alway to hide it self even from the tyme of our first parents Gen. 3.6.12.13 And tell me your self If pretences would serve what Schismatickes Hereticks Apostates factious or contentious men ever was there that had not store of such so both deceiuing others and being deceived themselves Yet let vs now examine yours You pretend 1 discontinuance a long season of the simple offices of Pastors Teachers Elders and continuance of the Prelacy all that vvhile So might Israell have alledged 2. Chron. 15.3 Had it therefore ben of waight And this pretence might far better serve the Papist then it can you who confesse Rome to be Babylon and know that your Prelacy Priesthood and worship came from thence not from Ierusalem Besides how will you prove this cōtinuance and discontinuance to have ben so manie thousand yeares as you speak of Yet if it were the word of God is still as plaine to
discover error as it was at first to reveale the truth You pretend also 2 the opinion of many auncient and late learned godly Christiās and 3 their expositiō of the Scriptures so as herein they cary ambiguity in infinite Thousands iudgment To both which I answer 1. That great antiquity was alledged by the Samaritans Ezra 4.2 Ioh. 4.20 and is also by the Papists at this day for their Prelacy Priesthood worship and other their errors of Purgatory Masse Prayer for the dead mixing water and wine in the Cup Iustification by works Extreme vnction Transubstantiation c. And the Scriptures too are so expoūded as they carry no small ambiguity in these points in the judgement of infinite Thousands Pag. 44. 45. 2. I have also shewed before how even some of the Martyrs learned and godly Christians held divers of these popish errors vnto death And therefore doubtles so took and expounded the Scriptures as vpholding them 3. And be sure whensoeuer you bring the many auncient and late learned and godly Christians you speak of for your assertion that as many such if not far mo both auncient and new may he brought to the contrary And what then are you the nearer 4. But in deed I deny this which you say There is not testimony from such antiquity as you speak of for your Prelacy and the rest of your abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. If you can therefore shew it in your next And mynd as for the rest so for the Prelacy in particular that you shew it to be such as yours in office entrance administration maintenance c. For although ♣ the mystery of iniquity began to work betimes yet it was both withheld a while from being revealed 2 Thes 2.3.6 7.8 with Rev. 13.11 and coming vp out of the earth it appeared and was exalted not all at once but by degrees So as it was a long season in this rising of Antichrist ere the Prelacy came to that height which now it hath with you and in Rome the mother thereof Search and see if it be not thus And in the meane tyme because I know you haue a prejudice of whatsoever I say heare a litle what Mr Cartwright one of your selves hath written of your Prelacy against D. Whitgift now Archb. of Canterbury Our Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. saith he besides the names have almost nothing common vvith those of elder tymes Againe If those Bishops vvere alive they vvould not knovv ech other For that they vvould think ours Princes and ours would esteeme them as hedge Priests not vvorthy of their acquaintance or fellovvship T. C. first Rep. Pag. 124. c. and his 2. Rep. Pag. 660. And in the same place comparing them togeather he sheweth vnanswerably in many particulars how farre they differ the one from the other So as your Archbishop in this poynt also hath ever since ben at a Non plus Now if you please you may take your Archbishops quarrell in hand and strive with as good successe as he for these and the rest of your Romish traditions 5. Finallie remember on the one hand how our grandmother Eue at the first entring of sinne into the world insinuated ambiguity in the word of God which yet in deed was most cleare and plaine Gen. 3.3 with Gen. 2.17 And mynd well on the other hand if at this day the Papists themselves bring not greater show of Scripture for their grossest heresies of “ Iam. 2.21.24.25 Dan. 4.24 Mat. 25 35.36 Iustification by works †Mat. 26.26 Ioh. 6.51.53 Trāsubstantiation “ Iam. 5.14 Extreem vnction * 1 Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 14.26 16.13 Impossibilitie of the Church to erre c. then you or any other either have brought or can bring for your Prelacy and other impietyes before mentioned Shall we therefore conclude as you do that they are not easily convicted though they be mistaken in these things God having so disposed in his providence to suffer this among Christians so long and so vniversally God forbid Or shall we think that Ieroboam and the Iewes of whō you speak had not their pretences and excuses aswell as you and the Papists I have shewed before that they had Besides also as Moses and the Prophets were plaine against their corruptions so are both they and the Apostles as playne against yours As for example that there should be no forbidding of meats or mariage no read or stinted prayer no mens inventions to worship God by no Priests in office of Ministery neither any Lord Bishops but Christ onely no baptizing by women no Idoll Temples no Apocrypha books or prescribed Homilyes for the worship of God no Popes Canon Lavv or Prelates decrees to rule the Church by c. Compare now with these the Calves Images Priests and places whereof you speak and see if the word of God condemne not the one aswell as the other Mind also how against these Gods voice hath sounded in your eares by the testimony of his seruants from tyme to tyme and how his hand hath fearfully smitten you with hardnes of heart and given you over to false worship and persecution of the truth besides all other impietyes raigning among you Then which what greater judgement can there be in this life Consider also the example of Corah and his companions whom the earth swallowed vp and fyer devoured from heaven Num. 16. chap. 26.9.10 Whose case although it be handled and compared with yours in the Second Exception before Pag. 33. 52. 55. 3. yet because of the childish excuses which you shame not still to plead vnder pretence of vvant of conviction darkenes of the vvord vnto you c. and because ‡ Before Pag. 37. your self also do judge their case to be most wretched and altogeather inexcusable therefore will I here againe put you in mynd to consider well with your selves and to examine by the word of God whether your sinne may not be esteemed in some respects greater then theirs 1. The Office and function which they vsurped was a true one Numb 16.10 Yours false 2. The things which they took and offred were such as God had cōmanded vers 18. Yours such as man prescribeth 3. The people to whom they would administer were a true Church vers 2.3 Yours a false 4. The reasons which they alledged divers of them were more seeming-good then any you bring vers 3.14 5. They thought they did well and as was meet vers 3.13.14.18.19 You at least manie of you know and have professed that your Ministery and worship is Antichristian and therefore evill and abominable 6. They had not the written word so as you have vers 5.7.9.10.28 c. Lev. 8. 9. chap. wiih Heb. 1.1.2 2.2.3 7. They sinned in one thing vers 10. You in an hundred 8. They were twise or thrice admonished and reproved vers 4.5.8 c. You ten tymes 9. They stood vp against Moses and Aaron vers 3 You