Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n
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A04208
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A Christian and modest offer of a most indifferent conference, or disputation, about the maine and principall controversies betwixt the prelats, and the late silenced and deprived ministers in England tendered by some of the said ministers to the archbishops, and bishops, and all their adherents.
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Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624.
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1606
(1606)
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STC 14329; ESTC S120767
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28,632
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54
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defectiue and unperfect are true Churches whose willing subjecting themselues unto their Ministerie maketh the very outward calling it selfe of the said Ministers to be such as it is And therefore so long as their consciences being in the meane time vnconvinced of these their errors wherein they stād God taketh not away their Ministeriall gifts frō them and so long as their Churches cleaue unto them though in their entrance continuance they were and are guiltie of much sinne in approving by Conformitie and Subscription the Iurisdiction of Prelats they thinke it not just wholly to separate from them and their Ministerie but are content though with some griefe and sorrow so far forth to joyne with them in the worship of God as they can without their personall Communion with them in those corruptions which in their weaknes they yeeld vnto 3. If the Prelats shall still hold the things in question in such sort as of late they haue done shall vrge them so hotely as they begin both the Ministers many of the people wil be forced to leaue their ordinary standing in these Churches In which regard they humbly pray that they may be exempted from the Prelats may haue liberty granted vnto them by the King to serue God according to his owne will revealed in his word without any Humane Traditions As for that publique Ministerie derived from the Prelats besides that it cannot be entered into without yeelding to corruption sinne it is also very defectiue to speake the truth little more then a halfe Ministerie if it be compared with the Pastorall Office commanded and commended vnto vs by the Holy Ghost Which the Ministers discerning and perceaving plainly that there is litle or no cōfort to be had in the exercising of such a Ministerie as hitherto they haue injoyed they are bold to make their humble Suite to his Maiestie that they may be freed from the Prelats vsurpation over them and may be vnder the guidance Censure of the Civill Magistrats unles by such an indifferent Tryall as is heere Offered the Prelats shall iustify their Callings and Courses to be of God 12. OPPOSITION A vaine thing it is to yeeld to any such Offer For who must iudge on which side the truth is They name none And when they haue been heard to oppose and Answer what they can they will not stand to any mans definitiue sentence but will continue obstinate still ANSWER 1. In desiring that the whole cariage of this intended Conference may be published they make all the world to be Iudges thereof even the Prelats and the Papists them selues all that shall read the same 2. They do not think it lawfull in any matter of Religion much lesse in matters of so great consequence to settle their consciences vpon the definitiue sentence of any person absolutely that is so far as to renounce any thing which they haue believed because such or such iudge it to be otherwise For so they might both headily wilfully betray the truth of Christ and inthrall themselues to error and also detract from Christ and his blessed word their proper right and giue it unto men It should therefore content any Christianly affected man that the Ministers are content to offer their Defence of these poynts to the view of all to skan and to weigh thē and so far forth to judge therof as if their reasons do not satisfie them to giue them leaue to condēne them of error which wil be a Iudgment heavie enough to them if notwithstanding they shall still persist in their former opinions 3. It may please God that by the evidence and force of those Arguments or Answers that shal be propounded both sides may thinke themselues satisfied and one side yeeld If the Prelates haue this grace to yeeld then his Majesty the State know best what they haue to doe in such a Case If the Ministers yeeld then the greatest matter that can be expected of them is Submission and Conformity which if they shall refuse the Law is open so that in this case there needes no Definitiue sentence of a Iudge It both sides rest vnsatisfied and continew perswaded still that the truth is on their side it were impious for either side in such a case to commit the absolute determination therof vnto the will and pleasure of any man or men whomsoeuer And it were vniust for either side to require Iudges either incompetent or not indifferent For as the Prelats might iustly except they would wilfully betray their owne cause refuse such to be Iudges as haue in any degree inclined more to the Ministers then to them so may the Ministers in like maner as iustly refuse to stand to the Iudgment and determination of such as incline more to the Prelats then to them much more of such as haue shewed themselues maine patrons and vpholders of the Prelats and adversaries to the Ministers Sith therfore the Prelats can not set forth any person or persons to whom it is meet to commit the absolute determination of so great a cause it were very vniust and vnequall to binde the Ministers to stand to the judgment of those that are partiall 4. It is needles to name Iudges his Maiestie the Civill Magistrats vnder him and the High Court of Parliament though the Ministers should appeale from them would in this case judge thē and their Cause yea and are bound soe to doe Whose Iudgment if it goe against the Ministers and it appeare to be righteous the more they shall neglect the same and refuse to submit themselues vnto it the more grosse refractary they shall shew themselues to be and with the more honor and credit may the State ioyne with the Prelats in making and executing Lawes for the suppressing of them and their Errors which is as much advantage as any Christian can desyre over any Enemies of the truth And what would the Prelats haue more Prov. 19.21 Many devises are in a mans heart but the Counsell of the Lord shall stand Math 22 21. Giue unto Caesar the thinges which are Caesars and giue unto God those things which are Gods
propouÌ„ded som not at all touched neither was there any one Argument to the purpose followed in the same 5. The Prelats took vnto them selues liberty to interrupt at their pleasure those of the other side insomuch that they were checked for it by his Maiestie 6. The Ministers if his Maiestie will giue them leaue will at any time in one weeks space deliuer to his Maiestie in writing a full answere to any Argument or Assertion propounded in that Conference against them by any Prelate and they do here plainely professe that all and every one of them are most vaine and frivolous 6. OPPOSITION These Ministers by oppugning the Prelats doe openly disgrace the Government of his Maiestie and the whole State and therefore noe such favor is to be yeelded to them ANSWER 1. If the aforesaid Propositions be all of them true such as will be iustifyed by the written word of God theÌ„ the Ministers who heerein seeke nothing but the bare defence of that truth contayned in them which is of so great importance cannot be truly charged with any vndutifull behavior toward King or State if they be not true this tryall will make it manifest to all men and that to the greater shame of these Ministers 2. They doubt not whatsoever the Prelats shall intimate to the contrary but that this Conference will much redound to the Honor of his Maiesties person and GovernmeÌ„t For by it that truth shall appeare which how soever it hath been generally receaved in other Churches abroad hath been hitherto either vnknowen among vs or much obscured by the Prelats their friends albeit it doth indeed concerne and that deeply the true ordinary meanes of saving our soules 3. The Ministers are heerein so far from seeking to disgrace the King or his Gouernment that they would esteeme it a singular blessing of God if they might be so happy as to obtaine that the aforesaid Propositions containing in them the nature of Christs true Visible Church Ministerie and Worship may by his Maiesties speciall order and appointment be examined and determined in such a most reasonable and vnpartiall Conference as before is tendered wherevnto they make no question but they shall finde his Maiestie willing inough if the Prelats do not vnder hand procure him to hinder it 7. OPPOSITION It is not meet that the Governors of the Church should in this maner debase themselues vnto such meane and privat persoÌ„s ANSWER 1. They are no privat persons being publike Ministers of the Gospell and diuers of them of as good estimation in the Schooles for their knowledge in Divinitie and Humanitie and as reverend for their yeares as any of the Prelats are 2. Some of the principall of the Prelats haue already more disgraced themselues in this kinde theÌ„ they should by yeelding to such a Conference as this is The Bishop of Winchester as is well knowen vndertooke the Answer of M. Iacobs last booke The Bishop of London professed openly in his CoÌ„sistory that he would shake out of the raggs that booke which the Ministers of Lincolne Dioces delivered to his Maiestie the Abridgment whereof is published in print Doctor Felton also at the request of the Archbishop vndertooke to answer the Treatise of Divine worship which bookes maintaine and defend in substance the aforesaid propositions And though two years are now allmost past yet noe Answer to any of them appeareth 3. The Prelats may chose whether themselues will personally deale in the Conference or not they may assigne heerevnto their ordinarie Champions who haue for their preferment alreadie put forth themselues in the cause And who for greater hopes wil be ready to vndergoe this service 8. OPPOSITION This very Offer is enough to iustifie the former proceeding of the Reverend Fathers against the Ministers and to manifest how intolerable they are in this state They pretended in their first Petition to his Maiesty no desire of innovation of the Government but only the remouall of a few Ceremonies and some other supposed corruptions Now they haue manifested their hypocrisie to all the world which the Bishops foreseeing thought it needfull to take this course against them For nothing will satisfy these fellowes but either the overthrowe of Bishops or at least wise their freedome from them And therefore can any blame the Bishops if they giue them the same measure that they if they had the power in their hands would mete vnto them ANSWER 1. If the Ministers doe now cut deeper at the roote of the Prelacie theÌ„ heretofore they haue done it is because since their late proceedings they haue seene more into the mysterie of injquitie that worketh in their spirituall Dominion then ever they saw before And therfore they must thanke themselues for it 2. It is now made manifest to the whole world that there is no hope of freedom from the spirituall bondage of Antichristian Traditions so long as the Prelats sit in their Thrones but a more direfull expectation of greater slaverie and servitude then ever before as may appeare by the late Canons and their other proceedings And therefore howsoever some reverend Ministers nourish still many hopes that the Prelats will at length shew mercy and be content to let them in joy the libertie of their consciences and suffer them to exercise a Ministerie under them yet they that make this Offer seeing no likelyhood nor possibilitie of any such matter but of the cleane contrarie the Prelats having in so high a degree blasphemed and persecuted this truth of God they thinke themselues now bound in conscience by all honest good meanes to seeke to be freed froÌ„ that estate which cannot as it appeares now to all the world uphold it selfe G. Powel Adiaph â—…ef but by the ruine of the Gospell and exaltation of Antichristianisme For they that plead for their Government and Traditions are driven to hold these impious and irreligious Absurdities D. Covil â—…ainst the â—…ea of the â—…n pa. 19. * That Christ is not the Law-giver of his Church That it is a vertuous obedience to rest as well in that which the Church commandeth unto us as in that which God commandeth to his Church Hutton 〈◊〉 the Cross â—â—g 3.4 That the Church is ruled by the spirit of Christ who is the truth and therefore her Traditions are true and holy Hooker â—ef pag 28. 〈◊〉 That God alloweth men to doe that which in their private iudgment it seemeth yea and perhaps truely seemeth B. Roch. â—ermon at â—ampton â—ourt p. 31. that the Law doth disallow § That vnwrit ten Ordinances aswell as written are Divine and Apostolike in the constitution of the chiefest Office and Ministerie of the Church 3. They doe no further desire their freedom from the Prelats from that power which they haue then they shall be able to proue that it is lifted up against the Doctrine and Kingdome of Christ our Lord. 4. They leaue their overthowe to God and the King