extreme confusion souvent advient que deux pasteurs d'une mesme Eglise s'entrequerellent divisent le troupeau en deux factions contraires En ce cas il faut par necessitè avoir recours a une compagnie puissance superieure que si l'Eglise nà qu'un Pasteur que ce Pasteur soit vitieux vive à 'une vie scandaleuse soit supporté par le Consistoire entier ou que le Consistoire soit divisé il n'y a point de remede a ce mal que par les Colloques Synodes ayants puissance de suspendre ou deposer un tel Pasteur n'y ayant qu'un Pasteur en ceste Eglise iceluy meritant d'estre depose qui est ce qui le deposera Les Anciens du Consistoire seuls prononceront ils contre luy sentence de deposition Que si quelcun du peuple est injustement suspendu de la Saincte Cene ou excommunié a qui aura il recours pour estre restabli a qui formera il ses plainctes si le Consistoire qui l'a injustement condamnè a une Authorité Independante irrefragable Que si une nouvelle Heresie s'espand que quelques Pasteurs Eglises en soyent infectées quel moyen d'obvier a un si grand mal que par un Synode qui puisse deposer les Pasteurs obstinés en leur erreur Insectants le troupeau sans le Synode de Dordrect l'Arminianisme sespandroit par tout le pays si chaque Consistoire eust esté absolu Independant il eust peu mespriser la decision du Synode en disant nous ne sommes subjects a aucun Synode avons une authorité absolue Independante L'es Synodes sont principalement occupès a ouyr les plainctes des Eglises particulieres a juger des appels si vous ostez cela aux Synodes ils nont plus rien a faire leur Convocation sera inutile Car aussi eu vain prononceroient ils des jugements dont l'Execution ne seroit en leur puissance Chasque Consistoireise gouvernezoit a sa fautasie comme si en un grand pays de chaque village on faisoit une Souverainetè Cela est vouloir introduire vn ordre qui depuis le temps des Apostres jusques a maintenant n'a jamais esté practiqué Il y a plusieurs petites Eglises Champestres dont le Consistoire est composè d'un Pasteur qui na pas beaucoup de capacité de quatre ou cinq paysans qui sont Ancicus de l'Eglise donner a on a une telle Eglise ou Consistoire une authoritè Independante ce Pasteur venant a mourir ees payisans auront ils le pouvoir d'èn choisir un autre ou de luy imposer les mains sont ls Juges suffisants de la capacitè d'un Ministre Que si a cause de l'affliction de l'Eglise il est besoin de celebrer un jeusue par toutes les Eglises du Royaume qui ordonnerace jusne qui assignera le jour S'il faut representer au Prince Souverain les plaintes de toutes les Eglises qui esce qui deputera qui est ce qui presentera les requestes de tout le corps des Eglises du Royaume Si pour quelques occasions survenues il est besoiug de changer quelque chose en la Discipline Ecclesiastique faire des nouveaux reglements qui obligent toutes les Eglises cela se pourra il faire par des Consistoires Independants nm subjects a aucun reglement general Bref faut tenir pour constant que la Dependance des Compagnies inferieures subjectes aux Superieures est le lien qui entretient l'Vnion de l'Eglise le quelestant couppê il ny auroit plus de correspondance on verroit une horrible confusion Nul ne peut estre Juge eu sa propre cause s'il y a de la contention entre deux Eglises Particulieres comme cela advient fort souvent pas une de ces Eglises ne peut estre Iuge faut avoir recours a quelque authorité superieure Ie ne veux croire que ces Independants ayent Intelligence avec les Adversaires que leur but soit soubs ombre de Reformation de nous jecter en vne confusion qui nous expose en risee a ceux qui nous sont contraires I'aime mieux croire qu'ils errent par faute d'experience de cognoissance de ce qui est possible ou profitable a l'Eglise de Dieu P. D. M. The Iudgement of a great Divine in France concerning Independency declared in a Letter directed to Master Buchanan A Friend of mine a vertuous man and fearing God has advertised me that certaine persons finde fault with the Order established in our Churches by the which the Consistories are subject unto Colloques and the Colloques unto Provinciall Synods and the Provinciall Synods unto Nationall Synods They would have every Consistory to have an absolute authority and not to depend upon any superiour Assembly My Friend askes me thereupon my judgement The thing is of such a nature and of such weight that I could not deny him his request I say then That those that make such Propositions ought not to be believed if men followed their advice there could nothing follow but a turning of the Church upside down and an utter confusion It fals out often that two Pastors of one and the same Church fall out amongst themselves and divide the flock into two contrary Factions in this case of necessity we must have recourse unto a Company and Power Superiour But if the Church have but one Pastor and he be a vicious man and of a scandalous life and be supported by the whole Consistory or that the Consistory be divided there is no remedie for this evil but by Colloques and Synods that have power to suspend and Depose such a Pastor There being but one Pastor in this Church and he deserving to be deposed who is he that shall depose him The Elders of the Consistorie alone Shall they pronounce Sentence of Deposition against him What if any one among the People be suspended from the holy Supper or excommunicated To whom shall he have his recourse to be received again into the Church And to whom shall he make his Complaint if the Consistorie which hath unjustly condemned him have an Independant and irrefragable Authority What if a new Heresic be sowen abroad and that certaine Pastors and Churches be infected with it what means is there to meet with such an evil but by a Synode that hath power to depose Pastors that are obstinate in their Error and infect the Flocks Had it not been for the Synod of Dordrecht Arminianisme had spread it self over the whole country If every Consistory had been Independant it had contemned the Decision of the Synod
of private or particular mens Iudgements The first binds and obliges them who are subject unto them the second cannot oblige any man to obedience and so I say 1. That in Questions already determined in Gods Word by his Church every man may determine as God and the Church have determined 1. Because God obliges us to determine our judgements according to the Determinations of his Word especially in things that are necessary to Salvation for the very publication of the Gospell obligeth us to assent 2. If every man determineth not according to Gods Word he sinneth 3. If particular men determine not their Iudgement according to Gods Word and because the thing beleeved is conforme to Gods Word it is not an Act of Divine Faith In these Determinations according to the Word I say that the Church Determination is publick 1. Because God hath endowed her with publick Authority to determine according to the Determination of his Word 2. Because she Iudges not by private authority as private men 3. Because Suspension from the Lords Table c. are not Acts of private but of publick Iudgement and authority This Authority of the Church is not Imperiall or Magisteriall but Ministeriall because the Ministers of the Church be nothing else but Gods Ministers or Servants and not Lords in the Church The Determinations and Iudgements of particular Persons are only particular and a Iudgement of Discretion 1. Because they proceed not from publick but from private and particular persons even when they proceed from a Minister 2. Because they have not publick authority to oblige Congregations but themselves alone 3. Their principall and intrinsecall ayme is not to be directions for others but for themselves and they doe not helpe to direct others in particular This M. S. objecteth that if A. S. determine it he anticipates upon the Assemblies Iudgement but that he must not doe so Answ I deny the Consequence 1. for the Assemblies Iudgement is publick and mine particular 2. It is already Iudged by the Church of this Kingdom that Presbyterian Discipline is not contrary to Gods Word for if it were it had never permitted it to be practised or approved in England as I have already shewed 2. To the Minor I answer That either by anticipating upon the Synods Iudgement he understandeth an anticipation by a publick Iudgement and that is impossible to me for my Iudgement is not publick but particular or by a particular Iudgement and then it is not properly an Anticipation or if he will needs have it to be so I answer that if I or any other Christian have learned any truth in Gods Word we are all bound to determine our particular Iudgements according to it Neither can the long Examination of businesses in Synods which proceedeth from Hereticks Sectaries and others their crafts malice or infirmities hinder us from determining the truths according to our particular Iudgements for if it could then whensoever any Heretick should start up and dogmatize against the first Articles of our Faith denying Gods Infinity Simplicity Perfection Eternity Immutability his Wisdome Decrees Power or Providence and his opinion were to be examined in a Synod we must begin to doubt and suspend our Iudgements as so many Pyrrhonians about all those points which already we beleeved by Faith and stand gaping for some new Determination of the Articles of our faith from Synods And so Synods should be most pernicious in making us to lose our Faith which before we had In a word we have received already the Determination and Resolution of the Independents questions in Gods Word in other Protestant Churches and the approbation of those Determinations here by the Church of England And the Discussion of them in the Synod is not to change Gods Ordinance but to give contentment unto weake Consciences if they can receive it Again If this Argument be strong I retort it against his Sect If the Quinque Ecclesian Ministers M. S. and C. C. determine these Questions as they doe in their printed Bookes here and Sermons also as we are credibly informed they also anticipate upon the Assemblies Iudgement But the First is true Ergo so must the Second also be Again Either this man with the rest of the Sectaries are minded to acquiesce to the Determination of the Synod or not If the first it is well it is more then I expect of them I pray God they deceive me if not what needeth he to sight so much for the Determination of the Synod which he is determined not to stand unto would not this seeme to be said in derifion of the Synod 2. Obj. A. S. In determining the Question taketh it out of the Assemblies hands Answ I deny the Consequence for it is in their hands by way of publick Authority publicke Iudgement and publicke Determination Now A. S. or any other particular Determination taketh not away the publick and Authoritative Determination Iudgement or Authority As for the stating of the Question this man will not permit me and consequently no particular man so much as to state it in particular and that for the same reason But if we may according to our particular Iudgement Determine it how much more may we state it since it can no waiess be Determined unlesse first it be stated Can the Synods stating and Determining the question free us of the obligation whereby we are bound to state it and Determine it according to Gods Word QUEST 4. Whether the Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers publish this their Apologeticall Narration seasonably yea or not against M. S. p. 24 25. c. that affirmes it I Maintaine the Negative part of the Question his Reasons are 1. Because before the publication thereof the Calumnies mistakes misapprehensions of their Opinions and many of those mists that were gathered about them or rather cast upon their Persons in their absence began by their presence againe and the blessing of God upon them in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for themselves and cause as the five Ministers say in their Apologeticall Narration M. S. p. 24. of his Booke Answereth 1. That that scattering of mists doth but relate to the people and onely to some of them viz. Those that professe or pretend the power of godlinesse as appeareth by the precedent period A. S. Reply 1. The precedent period hath no relation to this for it endeth with a full point 2. It is not the precedent period that should interpret the subsequent but rather the subsequent that should serve for interpretation to the precedent unlesse yee put the Explication before the Text. 3. Because it is said absolutely 4. They themselves beleeve now at this present that this relateth to others as yee may see p. 15. where they speak of those who incited the State not to allow them a peaceable practise of their Conscience and of some others who did write Bookes against them whom they accuse also of mis-apprehensions and mistakes
saying We are not subject to any Synode We have an absolute and Independant Authority Synods are chiefly busied about hearing of the Complaints of particular Churches and to judge of Appellations If you deny that Power unto Synods they have no more to do and their Convocation shall be to no use for in vain should they pronounce Iudgements which were not in their power to put in Execution Every Consistory should governe it self after its own fancy as if in a great Country one should make of every Village a Soveraignty that were to introduce an Order which since the dayes of the Apostles was never practised untill this time There are many little Country Churches whereof the Consistory is composed of one Pastor who is of no deep understanding and of four or five Persons that are Elders of the Church shall we give to such a Church or Consistory an Independant Authority And that Pastor hapning to die these Persons shall they have power to choose another or give him Imposition of Hands Are they competent Judges of a Ministers sulficiency What if because of the Affliction of the Church it be necessary to Celebrate a Fast throughout all the Churches of the Kingdom who shall ordaine this Fast Who shall appoint the Day If the Complaints of all the Churches must be represented to the Soveraigne Prince who shall Depute Who shall present the Requests of the whole Body of the Churches of the Kingdom If for certain Emergent Occasions it be necessary to change something in the Discipline of the Church and to make new Ordinances to binde all the Churches can that be done by Independant Consistories not subject to any generall Rule Briefly we must hold constantly that the Dependence of Inferiour Companies being subject to Superious is the Band that entertains the Union of the Church which being cut asunder there should be no more Correspondence and we should see a horrible confusion No man can be Iudge in his own Cause If there be a strife betwixt two particular Churches as it fals out very often not one of these Churches can be Iudge They must addresse themselves to some superiour Authority I will not believe that these Independants have intelligence with the Adversaries and that their Aime is under colour of Reformation to cast us into a Confusion which might expose us to be laught at by those who are our Opposites I would rather believe that they erre for want of Experience and knowledge of that which is pessible and profitable for the Church of God Sentiment d'un grand Theologien de Hollande touchant l'Independence declarè en une Lettre addressée a Mr. Buchanan VN voyage que j'ay faict au nom de nostre Academie est cause du retardement de ma Responce a celle que vous m'aves faict la faveur de m'escrire Ie vous suis obligè des tesmoignages de vostre affection et vous prie de faire estat reciproquement de la mienne Ie ne vous seaures asses representer comme nous gemissons pour les confusions de vos Royaumes Ie souhaite avec passion que la Reformation de l'Eglise d'Escosse soit suivie de celle d'Angleterre et que vos Ordres aussi bien que vos Armées leur soient rendues salutaires ie ne hesite nullement ains crois que ceux qui veulent introduire l'Independ des Eglises introduiront l'Anarchie confusion et toutes sortes de licence a remplir les Chaires de Fanatiques vos Eglises de Schismes Ie ne doute point que nombre de personnes ne soient portées a ce parti de bon Zele ne croient bien faire Mais la consequence de ceste Indep ne se pouroit jamais suffisamment descouvrir qu'apres quelle auroit esté establie autant presque que vous auriez d'Eglises autant auriez vous dautel contre autels et l'un seroit pour Paul et l'autre pour Cephas le 3 pour Apollos Dieu vous garde de ces horribles confusions on veroit un beau mesnage si chaque Famille estoit Independ sans police et sans dependence d'un ordre public et que seroit ce del Eglise Iaurois mis la main a la plume pour en faire une dissertation estendue si je neusse estimé quil seroit plus a propos que ce jugement soit demandé a nostre faculte il auroit par a moyen plus de pards que procedent dun particulier Aoust 1. 1644. The Iudgement of a great Divine in Holland concerning Independency declared in a Letter directed to Master Buchanan Sir A Iourney that I was put upon by our University is the cause why I had not answered sooner those Letters you were pleased to write unto me I am much beholding to you for the testimony of your Affection and I pray you reciprocally to make account you have mine I cannot sufficiently represent unto you how much we take to heart the confusions of your Kingdom Learnestly wish that the Reformation of Scotland may be imitated by the Church of England and that your Church-Government as well as your Brotherly Assistance by Armes may be serviceable unto them I doubt nothing but firmely believe that they that would introduce Independency of Churches would bring in an Anarchie a confusion and all sorts of Licence to furnish all Pulpits with men of Fanatick Spirits as also your Churches with Schismes I make no question but many of them are carried to these opinions with a good meaning that they think therein they do wel But the dangerous consequence of such an Independence should it be established would discover more then we believe can ever sufficiently be discovered till it be established As many Altars should you then have erected one against another as you have Churches One Church would side it selfe with Paul another with Cephas a third with Apollos God preserve you from these horrid confusions you should see a sweet Oconomie if every particular family should once come to be Independant without any Policy or Dependance upon the publike and what then would become of the poor Church of God I should have been much larger in handling the point more accurately had I not thought it had been more expedient for you to have had the Iudgement of the Divines of this University jointly being that it would have carried more authority with it then possibly any thing can do that proceeds from a private man onely Quod foelix faustumque sit THe first period of this Book is a manifest untruth There is no such thing in all my Book as that my heart with discontent is rent in two pieces to hear the innocent bleatings of that wronged Lamb the Apologie So as I may here use your admirative Interrogation Is this the use men make of pressing Sermons Your following Injuries non sunt dignae irâ Caesaris I must be fain to beare with this Epidemicall Disease of you Independents and
in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the
gift that is in thee which was given thee by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Item That which is said c. 5. v. 21.22 About laying on of hands and drinking of wine But all this should be ridiculous and superfluous The truth is that here as in other Epistles many Duties are commanded but not all to all but some to Publick persons as to Pastours to Church-Rulers Some to particular Persons And others are common to all And this here is commanded to Timothy a Pastour and in his name to all other Pastours as the same common Dutie of them all After Scripture they bring Reason but against both Scripture and Reason 1. VVhat concerneth all ought to be done by the consent of all But the Government of the Church concernes all E. A. If by the word Consent bee here meant Formall and Actuall explicit Consent it is false 1. Because our Brethren crave not the consent of VVomen and young Men and yet the Preaching of Gods word the Administration of the Sacraments and the Government of the Church concernes them all 2. Because scarsly is it possible or at least it falls rarely out that every one whom every Act of Ecclesiasticall Government concernes consents thereunto for Voyces and suffrages sometimes are divided yea among our Brethren in their voycing So that this is against themselves 3. In our Churches it is done by the consent of all either Formall or Virtuall since our Ecclesisticall Discipline and Government is established by all and our Church Rulers have the Power to rule according to Gods word by consent of the People so far forth as they actually consent thereunto or contradict it not 4. Either they understand here the generall Forme of Government and the power of Jurisdiction or the exercise thereof in actuall judging or the execution thereof after the matter is judged which they will to be done with the consent of all The first is established by God without our consent as they avow The second we deny it for in the Politicall Government the Judges doe Voyce and judge without the consent of all whom it concerneth As for the third if it concerne all particularly as Excommunication then it is published and if none contradict the Judgement they are thought to consent at least interpretativè since they contradict it not or if any man dissent his Reasons are to be heard which if they be just the proceeding is to be hindred if not he is to rest contented according to Gods word And if after sufficient satisfaction he acquiesces not he is to be punished according to the quality of his Fault Ob. If your Ecclesiasticall Senate judge alone as the Representative Church as ye call it then must it judge according to the Judgement of the People or Reall Church otherwise it shall no more represent the People or the whole Congregation then an Assent represents a Dissent or Black represents White But that can it not unlesse it know the Judgement of the People which cannot be known but by their Voycing and hearing of them E. R. I answer 1. to the Major it must be conforme to their actuall Judgement formall I deny it for the reason here alleadged to their vertuall Judgement I grant it for they professe actually that they will follow Gods word wherein vertually is conteined and they may be deduce if they will that the Representative Church judges not according to their erronious formall and actuall judgement and so the Assumption is false R. 2. To their actuall Judgement whatsoever it be I deny it To that whereby they will judge truly according to Gods word I grant it and then the Assumption is false R. 3. To all their Judgement I deny the Major for it is impossible to follow the Judgement contradictory of divers Persons or those of one man which actually and formally or virtually may be contradictory to themselves R. 4. I answer the Representative Church must judge according to the actuall Judgement of the Reall Church or People it is false For what if the People be infected with Heresie Shall the Ministers and Rulers of the Church in that case become Hereticks or judge in favour of Hereticks according to the Judgement Such as it should be according to Gods word it is true for the Representative Church is not so called as if it represented the Churches Judgement such as it is but such as it should be according to Gods word that rules them both yea if that should represent this actuall Judgement it should doe more then 20. divers Judgements which oftentimes are to be found amongst the People upon one subject And so we deny the Assumption of the Syllogisme To the confirmation thereof I answer that it should no more represent their actuall Judgement I grant it but it should represent their Potentiall Judgement such as they are bound to have howsoever their actuall Judgements be contradictory Ob. But what if the Judgement of your Ecclesiasticall Senate or Representative Church be wrong and that of the Reall Church sound A. That Case is extraordinary in respect of the order established in Gods Church for when it is said Tell it unto the Church and if hee heare not the Church c. It is supposed that the Church will judge the judgements of the Lord or according to his Law neither hath Shee any other order from God but in that extraordinarie Case supposed I answer that neither the People nor any particular man is bound to obey the Representative Church but every one hath power of God to contest lawfully the Judgement of the Representative Church and Shee is bound to admit them in their contestations and to heare them according to the Scripture and to amend their Judgement And if all the Church or the greater part of the Reall Church or Congregation oppose it selfe to their Judgement it cannot stand nor be put in execution yea I dare say that the Representative Church shewing her selfe pertinacious in her errour after sufficient conviction or refusing to heare her conviction is really Schismaticall or Hereticall according to the matter contested in Gods account And howsoever particular men cannot right themselves but are bound to suffer injustice so long as they stay in such Churches since they are not Ecclesiasticall Judges or to retire themselves out of the societie of such Oppressors to the end they may more easily defend themselves neverthelesse the Collective Body of the Reall Church or the greater part thereof if it have the Abilitie is bound to refute them to make them ashamed yea to contemne their Judgement and by all lawfull meanes oppresse such Oppressors And this is the Doctrine of our first Reformers oppressed by the Roman Antichristianisme against Papists which holds also in Reformed Churches For it is all one to me to find Antichristian Tyranny at Rome or at Edinburgh London Paris or Amsterdam It is not the place but Antichristian Tyranny or Doctrine that makes an Antichrist And to be quit with them here I aske againe what if the Judgement of the Consistorie be right and that of the People which ordinarily falls out wrong or if the Judgement of the greater part of the People be wrong and that of the lesser part right what then is to be done or followed Here they shall find themselves in no lesse straights then they think to draw us unto Ob. They say it is a thing never heard nor seene in any Kingdome of the world or in any Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie before Calvin and Beza that all the People should be secretly as it were in a Chamber of Meditation judged out of all mens presence by six or ten Ecclesiasticall Persons A. They that say so have not seen nor heard much of that which passes in the Christian world it is a thing very ordinary to see some civill Causes in civill Judicatories Pleaded with the doors shut by the consent of the Parties yea sometimes by the will of the Judges 2. And I would pray them to go no farther to tell me if every man hath libertie to enter in at the Parliament here at home They cannot deny but that the door is kept close and that ordinarily only the Members of the House have entry 3. And neverthelesse if the Parties desire to plead their Causes in the presence of so many as may enter I doubt not but the Reformed Church will grant it them yea there is an Act of the French Discipline to that purpose commanding that the Parties desiring their Causes to be discussed openly the doores cast open it should be granted Yea wee maintain that in such Cases when parties complaine of such secret Ecclesiasticall oppression the Church is bound by law and Conscience to proceed publickly and to justifie to the world her Proceedings otherwise shee is no wayes to be believed And this Argument I had willingly passed over if it had not been urged against me and that I had beene prayed to answer it by some of our Brethren that thought it so strong that it could not be answered But to answer ad hominem may not such faults fall out amongst them that object this Argument as we have Examples of it Our Question is not so much what is done as what should be done How to establish a Law against Abuses in the Churches and not How men abuse their owne Authoritie FINIS
yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding
But they permit not every man to discourse as was ordained by the old fashion of Rome whereby every one of the Senators had power to tell out his opinion by word of mouth Senatoribus quibusque in Senatu sententiā dicere jus esto Aulus Gellius lib. 3. cap. 8. Neither to give their voice in writing because of the weaknesse of their memories and to avoid all dispute and contention which falls out in discourse which they call deliberare ex libello ex pugillaribus but holding their peace and assenting to two three or foure of the wisest who discusse it in the beginning which the Romans called per Discessionem and therefore they were called Agipedes by Lucilius because they went on foot towards one of them whose Judgement they followed The French call it opiner en Bonnet because in assenting they only take off their Bonnet Sometimes they say nothing but Idem or Et moy or de mesme or as the old Romans did by little stones writing on them C.A. or N. to signifie Condemned Absolved or Nonliquet I know not such almost as the French use in some Cases and in some places Par Balotes Buletins en l'Election des Officiers Beneficiers by Bills or Tickets in the Election of Officers and Incumbents or beneficed men So did the Areopagites and now the Venetians or per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the stretching out of their hand as the Athenians did and sometimes the Romans A. 1. I approve the Answer in not permitting all to speak for many of them cānot speak to the purpose nor by writing for many of them cānot write at all If the third way be used then you must choose a certain number to speak whose voyces must be followed and 1. that is no lesse to tie them to an implicite Faith then a Consistorie does 2. It is to diminish their power in speaking for their tongues are their own 3. It is to contemne them and judge that some have more authority then others 4. What if some of the people be of an other judgement then any of the rest how shall they discover it The Suffrages cannot be given by little stones or Ballots for Writing cannot be used because many of the people cannot write and yet all this would take up much time and if there should fall in many incidents there should never be an end No more that external Signe in stretching out the hand or touching the Bonnet for so great a multitude should breed confusion and besides that howbeit it might be usefull in a Simple Affirmation or Negation yet in a great diversity of judgements it cannot hold 11. Besides this the Discipline of the Church may be exercised in all times yea in times of Persecution as in the Primative Church But this Democraticall sort of Discipline cannot be exercised in all times and specially in time of Persecution which is most ordinary to the Militant Church for if all the People should so meet together it could not be without great danger under an Antichristian Prince and principally in consulting about her own conservation her Counsell might easily be discovered and the Church of God betrayed by some mens wickednesse and others folly and imprudence whereas 10. or 12. or 50. of the most wise and prudent may easily meet together without any eminent danger 12. If a Congregation were great as of 20000. or 30000. there could not be found a commodious Place to containe them and this I say by experience for being at one of their Conferences there were so many that we were like to be smothered And there happened such a confusion such partiality and jangling by reason of the pretended equality that we could reap no profit thereby 13. Againe I pray Is it fit that for all particular businesses peradventure some of them very idle and of small importance that such a great Congregation should be gathered together and taken away from their Callings or that every particular fault should be made known to every particular man in the Congregation Should all the particularities or circumstances of most wicked and vile crimes be examined discussed and voyced by so many of the people what should that be but to teach them most execrable sinnes whereof they had never heard before for it is certain that many sins are learned in hearing them God forbid that in the Christian Church wherein any Uncleannesse should not be once named Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth Eph. 4.29 Let not uncleannesse be once named amongst you Eph. 5.4 Neither filthinesse ver 4. Children in their tender age should heare of such odious Sinnes from which their very nature abhorres And that young people before they know well what is vertue should heare all sort of vice That were worse then the Jesuits Auricular Confession and abominable Cases of Conscience In reading or hearing whereof the Conscience is either offended or infected It may be answered that it is not needfull to admit them in these Assemblies Reply But the Assembly say they is open to all to the end that all may learne how to exercise the power of Ecclesiasticall government If it be open to all how shall they be kept out If to the end all may learne how shall they obtain this end if they be kept out It may yet be answered that there is no lesse publication of odious Sinnes in white sheets at the Pillar of Repentance in Scotland A. That paine is only inflicted on some sins 2. Neither are the particularities or circumstances of the sins declared which should be scandalous 3. Only the pain is published in generall but the particularities that may give offence are concealed 14. In no Societie neither in the Government of a Familie nor of Schooles or Academies nor in Kingdoms or Armies is it permitted to every man promiscuously without distinction to judge and vote but only to the Overseers in their Societies Wherefore then should that be permitted yea ordained in the Church of God which is Gods house Christs Schoole Shall there be no place for foolish and impertinent fellowes to judge in but only in Gods house and Kingdome the holy City and his Kingdome For what inconvenience and Absurdities presses the one the same followes on the other This Argument so proposed ab Exemplo must hold because of the paritie of Reason in both It may be proposed in Forme of Syllogisme thus There is no Societie ruled by Law wherein every man exercises the power of Judge The Church of God is a Societie ruled by Law E. In the Church of God every man cannot exercise the power of Judge The Minor will be granted The Major may be proved by Induction for so is it not in Academies Armies Republicks Kingdomes c. E. It may be excepted that it is not so in the Church But it is unreasonable after a perfect Induction and Enumeration of all other Societies that you should except only against that which is in