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judgement_n	authority_n	church_n	person_n	1,479	5	5.0691	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92173	A most grave, and modest confutation of the errors of the sect, commonly called Brownists, or: Seperatists. Agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry, godly, and learned ministers of this kingdome, then standing out and suffering in the cause of inconformity; and now published in a time of need, for the good of Gods Church, and the better setling of mens unstable mindes in the truth against, the subtile insinuations, and plausible pretences of that pernicious evill. Published by W. Rathband, minister of the Gospell.	Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1644 (1644)	Wing R299; Wing M2893; Thomason E31_11; ESTC R209828	84,262	92

unlawfull for us to yeeld some kinde of obedience to Bishops so doe we performe it in our whole administration by going to their Courts by standing and falling at their commandement Whereunto we answer First that so long as the Christian Magistrate requireth we should yield obedience to the Bishops and that with this limitation viz. only in things lawfull and honest wee thinke it not unlawfull for us to give obedience to them in those things they doe by civill authoritie though neither themselves nor the Magistrate might well require us to doe for even our Saviour Himselfe yeelded obedience to Cesar in such a thing wherein Caesar could not lawfully exact obedience of him as for the excommunication and suspentions Mat. 17.24 27 and such other censures as are meerely Ecclesiasticall We answer As the true Church of God which from the Lord Iesus hath received these keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven did though unadvisedly and unlawfully deliver them over into the hands of the Bishops And the Bishops being Preachers of the Word though they should not have this power wholly committed unto them yet are they capable of it We see not how it should be utterly unlawfull to reverence and yeeld to the censures of Christs Church being exercised and administred even by them unlesse wee will say that the Church presently looseth her right and power to censure Offenders when she committeth it unto any such men as unto whom of right either not at all or not of right only it belongeth Secondly Secondly Not bind our selves thereto by oath so far as we doe Now as wee may lawfully yeeld some obedience to the Bishops in these things so wee may lawfully binde our selves by oath to doe it if our oathes be required or us by the Christian Magistrates anthoririe especially seeing we doe by oath binde our selves to obey in regard of the civill authoritie which is committed to them by the Christian Magistrate Thirdly For our going to their Courts this we answer That seeing we doe testifie in our callings our dislike to the vile and odious corruptions of their Courts And doe also utterly refuse to yeeld obedience to any o● their unlawfull decrees we cannot justly bee condemned for appearing intheir Courts or any other place whereunto we are by His Majesties authoritie summoned And whereas the persons before whom wee appeare are judged usually corrupt and enemies to that Reformation which wee desire and some of them also such as being no ministers themselves do by all meanes seeke the disgrace of our calling and the utter discoutagement of such Christians as in whom they perceive any sparkes of true zeale wee account this our appeating at their Courts not onely for an abridgment of our libertie but also for such a burthen as wee have just cause to groane under and to pray that God would in His good time move His Majesties heart to eate us of it And yet as the Apostle being free was content for the Churches sake not onely to become bound in serving it with the labour of his hands but also by subjecting himselse to those Ceremonies which in Christ were abolished so may and ought we for the Churches sake to beare this burden rather than to forsake or refuse the ministerie when the Lord hath called and fitted us unto it For our yeelding to the suspentions and deprivations wee answer That so long as the Bishops suspend and deprive according to the Law of the Land wee account of the action herein Fourthly To cease from the execution of our ministerie when they suspend or deprive us as of the act of the Church which wee may and ought to reverence and yeeld unto if they doe otherwise wee have liberty given us by the Law to appeale from them if it bee said that the Church is not to bee obeyed when it suspends and deprives us for such causes as wee in our Consciences know to be insufficient We answer That it lyeth in them to depose that may ordaine and they may shut that may open And that as he may with a good conscience execute a ministerie by the ordination and calling of the Church who is privie to himselfe of some unfitnesse if the Church will presse him to it so may he who is privie to himselfe of no fault that deserveth deprivation cease from the execution of his ministery when he is pressed thereunto by the Church And if a guiltlesse person put out of his charge by the Churches authoritie may yet continue in it what proceedings can there bee against guiltie persons who in their owne conceit are alwaies guiltlesse or will at least pretend so to be Seeing they also will bee readie alwayes to object against the Churches judgment that they are called of God and may not therefore give over the execution of their ministerie at the will of man And yet admitting it were meerely unlawfull Fourthly If this obedience wee yeeld to them were utterly unlawfull yet may we be true Ministers of Christ notwithstanding upon any respect to yeeld any new obedience at all to the censures of the Bishops yet how will it follow that this our unlawfull yeelding hath force sufficient to make us ipso fasto no true Ministers unlesse you will say that the High Priests who were in Christs time that took and left their offices at the will of tyrants and heathen Princes Were therefore not to be accounted Priests for further answer hereunto we referre the Reader to that which wee have above said to the fourth thing which they object against the whole body of our Assemblies And to that also which wee have already answered unto the fourth reason which they bring against our office The speech of the Apostls The speech of the Apostles Acts 4.19 20 15. most unskilfully alleaged against us 1 Tim. 6.2 which they are wont to object against us in this case may easily appeare how unskilfully it is alleadged to them that will consider these three differences betweene their case and ours First they that inhibited the Apostles were knowne and professed enemies to the Gospell Secondly the Apostles were charged not to teach in the name of Christ nor to publish any part of the Doctrine of the Gospell which commandement might more hardly bee yeelded unto then this of our Bishops who though they cannot indure them which teach that part of the truth that concerneth the good government and reformation of the Church yet are they not only content that the Gospell should bee preached but are also preachers of it themselves Thirdly The Apostles received not their calling and authority from men (c) Galath 2.1 nor by the hands of men but immediately from God Himselfe and therefore also might not bee restrained or deposed by men whereas wee though we exercise a function whereof God is the Author and we are also called of God to it yet are we called and ordeined by the hand and ministerie of men and may therefore by men

Magistrates so to doe whereas indeed we ought the rather to doe good things that are agreeable unto the Word when wee know them to be also commanded by the Christian Magistrate Though we are perswaded by the former reason Yet we doe grant that in some cases conceived prayers are more fit then other to think that stinted formes are so farre from being simply unlawfull as in that in the ordinary and generall occasions of the whole Church they are many times more fit then those that are called conceived prayers Yet it is well knowne that our Law alloweth and our preachers also doe use prayers conceived which we in some cases doe judge more fit to stirre up and expresse the groanes and sighes of the spirit then those prayers doe wherein we tie our selves to prescript words But why doe wee seeke to justifie our prescript Lyturgie before these men who speake as scornefully and profanely of our conceived prayers as they can possibly doe of those which wee read For when Henry Barrow had derided and flouted those that use onely read prayers hee breaketh out into these speeches in the 37. page of his discovery that other smooth hypocrites yet as grosse Idolaters use this viz. the Lords prayer as a clause or supply to their long and prolix prayers conceived before whereby it should seeme that their hatred to us rather then to our corruptions is so great as that whatsoever wee doe will displease them Concerning Homilies this answer wee give The reasons they bring against us for Homilies is of no force That though wee thinke it is not simply unlawfull to reade in our Assemblies such Homilies as are for the matter sound and good yet in regard of the dangerous inconveniences that may come by using them by so many Ministers and Congregations in the Land doe utterly dislike all publike use of them as that we wonder that these men are not ashamed to use this as a reason of their separation from the whole Church But what if all this were granted that the use of our stinted prayers If to have a Drescript form of Lyturgie were Idolatrous yet might we be the true Church for all that Catechismes and Homilies were Idolatrous which yet wee have proved to be otherwise will it from thence follow that we are not that true Church Is this a greater corruption in the worship of God then the retaining of hie places against which there is so expresse a commandement a Deut. 12.2 1 King 11.8 9 1 King 15.14 2 King 15.4 2 King 18.4 2 King 13.6 or then the burning Incense to the Brazen Serpent b and yet it is evident that the one of these was retained in the dayes of Asa and Azariah Kings of Iudah and the other even till Hezekiahs Reigne in which time notwithstanding it is manifest there was a true Church in Judah The testimony of Scripture which they quote in the page 68. of the collection of Letters and Conferences and in the 144. page of their resutations against our prescript Lyturgie are such as either tend generally to the condemning of Idolatrie f Deut. 5.8 9. 1 Chro. 28.10 Revel 22 19. Prov. 30.5 6. Deut. 4.32 Revel 22.18 19 Matth. 15.9 Col. 2.20 23. or such as forbid us to add any thing to the Word of God To the first sort we answer that they have not yet proved our Lyturgie Idolatrie Secondly if they had yet cannot they by these testimonies conclude that therefore they that use it are not the true Church To the other sort of Testimonies this we say that we adde not our Lyturgie unto the Word of God nor make it of equall authoritie with it neither doe we use it to the same ends and purposes that we doe the Scripture Secondly Wee doe wonder with what judgment or Conscience they can blame us for adding to the word by our Lyturgie who will at no hand allow us to use as prayers any of the formes that are set down in the Scripture The reasons also against all formes of Lyturgie The reasons against all formes of Lyturgie are weake and set downe in the 43. page of the collection of slanderous Articles are fond and weake though they seeme to collect them from the Scriptures for wee have above proved that God may be worshipped spiritually and fervently even in that prayer wherein a set and prescript forme of words are used Secondly That this is no good reason the Apostles are not read to have used any set forme of prayer themselves or to have prescribed any to the Churches Ergo they did not use or prescribe any or Ergo the Church might not Thirdly Iohn 4.23 Rom. 8.26 1 Iohn 2.17 1 Cor. 3.11 12 We see not why they may not as strongly reason the spirit helpeth our infirmities and wee have received that anointing and therefore we need not nor may not use any outward helps for our consolation and instruction or for the subduing of our corruptions as this the spirit helps our infirmities c. and we have received that anointing Ergo we need not nor may not use any prescript formes of words as helps in our prayers OBJECT III. The third thing they object against the whole bodie of the Church Object The third Objection against the whole body of our Church is that we want Christs Discipline is this That we want that discipline and order which Christ in his Testament hath appointed for the government of the Church for neither have we say they the power to binde or to loose nor those officers by whom the censures of Christ should be exercised Yea saith Henry Barrow in the 160. page of his discoverie You have not any one thing order or administration according to his Testament And in the 188. page such places of Scripture as make expresse mention of Christs discipline as Rom. 12. 1 Cor. 15. and 12. 2 Cor. 2 Ephes 4. 2 Thes 3. and 1 Tim. 5.1 are not saith he suffered so much as to be read in the Church much lesse to be sincerely expounded from these premises see what a conclusion he in the 27. page of his discovery inferreth without the power saith hee and practise of the diligent watch of every Member but especially of the Elders the Word of God is made an Idoll the Sacraments sacriledge unto us and all things we do odious and abominable unto the Lord. To this third Objection this answer we give Answ The first part of Christs Discipline which is most subst intiall we have 1. For the works and duties which hee would have performed in the governmēt of his Church are all one in our assemblies Discipline not exercised rightly First whereas the discipline of Christ consisteth in two things viz. what works and duties Christ would have performed for the ordering and government of his Church and by what persons and Officers hee would have these duties exercised We affirme that for as much as all these

1 Cor. 2.2 Eph. s 2.19 22. and therefore when the Apostle saith that the Church is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles his meaning is not to call every thing contained in their writings the foundation of the Church But that this foundation wee have spoken of is there to be found and hath witnesses from thence and that all the writings and doctrines of the Apostles and Prophets doe bend unto stay and rest upon this one truth as the walls in the building upon the chiefe corner stone Lastly Arg. 4. All reformed Churches give the Testimony to us All the knowne Churches in the world acknowledge our Church for their Sister and give unto us the right hand of fellow-ship This Henry Barrow and Iohn Greene-wood denie in their 14. page of their refutation but they name not any one Church that maketh question of us whether wee were the true Church or no never yet was there any reformed Church made that question They are well acquainted with our Church by the report of them that have travelled from bence and sundry other wayes with our doctrine and Lyturgie our wants and corruptions every one Neither doe they only forbeare to shew their dislike to us or are content to preserve society with us which happily through humane infirmitie they might doe upon sinister respects though they approved not of us in judgment but they doe also hold and teach that what people soever hath so much as we is the true Church though the wants and corruptions are as great as ours are Now when we alledge for our selves the testimonies of the Churches Which strongly argueth that we are the true Church we doe not thereby as these men fondly conclude in the 14. page of their refutation make the word of men the foundation of our Church Nor doe we use these as our only and chiefe defence whereby we seeke to approve our selves either unto the Lord or to the Consciences of his people but such an argument wee take this to bee as in his due place hath much force in it and as God Himselfe hath sanctified for a principall help in deciding of controversies in this kinde the Apostles use to alleadge it as a matter of comfort to them whom they write unto that the Churches of Christ salute them (a) Rom. 16.16 1 Pet. 5 13. that they were famous and had the good report of the Churches (b) Rom. 16.19 2 Cor. 8 18 19 23.24 Galah 1.2 Saint Paul though hee received not his calling either from men or by men c nor was any whit inferior to the chiefe Apostles (d) 2 Cor. 12.11 yet doth he alleadge for the credit of his ministery that the chiefest Apostles approved him and gave to him the right hand of fellowship (e) Gal. 2.9 Yea (f) Gal. 2.2 he sought also their approbation and feared that without it he should have runne in vaine And which is yet more he seeketh to win commendation and credit even to those which he by his Apostolicall authoritie might have established by the example and judgment of other churches If those Churches which were planted by the Apostles themseltes might take comfort in the good opinion that other Churches had of them May not we much more If the Ministery of Paul and orders he prescribed to the Church received further credit by the approbation of the Churches Then their approbations give some credit to the ministerie and orders of the Church now The doctrine and word of God though to speake properly it received authoritie onely from it selfe and the Spirit of God yet hath it ever beene the rather received by men for the testimony the Church hath given unto it So our Saviour Christ saith That Wisdome is justified of her Children Matth. 11.19 Iohn 5.34 and although he affirmeth that he received not the record of men Yet in respect of the salvation and good it men he judgeth it necessary John 1.7 8 5 33 34. that Iohn Baptist should give Testimony unto him Now if this one thing furthered the damnation of the unbelieving Iewes that they would not heare nor receive Christ though testimony were given of him by one whom they knew to be sent of God shall not this further the condemnation of these men that they refuse to heare and receive us though we be commended unto them by the testimony of so many Churches of God Some cases there bee wherein wee are commanded to seeke for the judgment of the Churches and to account it the judgment of God else why did the Church at Antioch in a question that could not be debated at home seeke to the Church at Jerusalem for helpe especially seeing they had two such excellent men with them as Paul and Barnabas whose judgments they might safely have trusted unto (d) Acts 15.2 saith our Saviour that whatsoever they binde on earth shall be bound also in heaven (e) Matth. 18 18. and saith he not also to Churches of other Nations Shall he be accounted as an heathen or a Publican that will not regard the judgment and censure of the particular Congregation whereof hee is a member (f) Matth 18.17 and shall they not be much more accounted so that despise the judgment of all the Churches Must the spirits of the Prophets be subject to the Prophets amongst whom we live (g) 1 Cor. 14.32 and must not both people and Prophets be subject to all the Prophets and Churches in the world The abilitie to trie and discerne the spirits and doctrines of such teachers as arise in the Church is such a gift as the true Church never wanted (h) 1 Ioh. 4.1 Revel 2.2 neither could it bee the pillar and ground of truth (i) 1 Tim 3.15 if it should be ignorant of a truth so necessary to the salvation of men as this is viz. What people is accounted to be the true Church of God if God hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce a particular man that he is in the state of salvation and that so infallibly that he hath promised to ratifie in heaven the judgment which the Church shall in this case give upon earth (k) Matth. 18 18. may it not bee said that hee hath much more made the Church able to discerne and pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true visible Church which is a matter of no such difficultie as the other So that to conclude though those men make so light of the judgment and testimony of other Churches 1 Cor. 14 36. as if the Word of God had come out from them onely or as if themselves were able to judge of us better than all the godly learned besides Yet doe wee take much comfort and assurance from hence that we are the true Church of God Now it remaines that we answer such reasons as are objected against our Church bythem Objections answered THe first thing that they

in the Reformation of their lives because partly for that they knew it not and partly for that they are hindred by authoritie they practise not the whole discipline of Christ And this rash judgment which they give of our people is so much the more blame-worthy because they cannot be ignorant with what care our people have sought by all good and dutifull meanes the Reformation of the Church And how much they have be wailed and mourned for the want thereof for which matter also wee referre the Reader to the answer we have above given to their fourth and fifth objections against the whole body of our Assemblies Secondly Our people deserve not to be blamed for that they erect not the discipline for First They esteeme both our Prince to be a most lawfull and a Christian Magistrate and our Ministers to bee true Ministers of Christ by whose meanes seeing they have received from God and do still enjoy not those blessings only that belong to the comfort of this life but the meanes of eternall happinesse and the effectuall assurance of it also they are justlie afraid that by enterprising a publike Reformation not only without but contrary to the direction and liking of them who by Gods Word ought to have if not the only yet the principall hand in that worke they should highly offend God 2. They cannot finde any warrant in holy Scripture for them that are private Members of the Church to erect the discipline no not though the Magistrate and Ministers who should deale in this worke were altogether profane and ungodlie in deviding the Land of Canaan which was a type of Heaven and of the Church under the Gospell and in all the Church causes that were dealt in under the government of Iosua which was a type of Christs government neither private persons nor the whole multitude had the managing of matters Iosh 19.51 21 1. 22 14 but the people did all by the Elders and chiefe Fathers a which also was commanded b Numb 34.16.28 So in publike Church causes under the Gospell the Lord hath ordained certaine speciall men chosen out from among the people by their consent to rule and governe the rest c 1 Tim. 5.17 4.14 And where God hath sanctified and separated a speciall sort of men to any office or the administration thereunto belonging there hath hee restrained all others that are not of the same sort from doing the actions properly belonging to that office as may well appeare by comparing these places of holy Scripture together d Numbr 4.15 with the first Chron 13.7 10 Num. 4.20 with 1 Sam. 6.19 Num. 16.40 3.10 Heb. 5.4 with 2 Chron. 26.16 19. Acts 14.23 Therefore also wee see the faithfull at Listra ●conium and Antiochiah l ad no Elders till the Apostles by their consent ordained them No more had they at Creta till Ti●us was sent to that purpose To the places of holy Scripture which they alleadge for this their second Objection against our people we answer First That some of them a Ier. 31.34 Ezech. 44.8 9. Cant. 4.7 1 Pet. 2.9 Acts 15.9 concerne the invisible Church and therfore are ignorantly applyed to the description of them that are members of the Church visible As if no measure of faith and holinesse were to be allowed by men in the judging of the members of the Church visible but that onely which the Lord Himselfe alloweth of in juding of the elect Members of the visible Church Whereas it is evident that to the making of the Members of the visible Church an outward obedience and profession of faith is sufficient though there be no inward grace nor truth in the heart Secondly That some of them require indeed that every Christian should seeke the Kingdome of God and the place where God is worshipped according to his Word submit themselves to the Yoke of Christ and to obey him in all his Ordinances but that the people without either the Magistrate or Ministers helpe or consent should reform the Church and erect the discipline they are so farre from commanding that if they be well compared with that wee have above said they will be found to command the contrarie The third thing they object against our people Is That though some of them had once beene faithfull yet by tollerating in their Assemblies the open prophane by wanting power to cast them out and communicateing with them in their worship of God they are now become not ue Church of Christ Whereunto we answer First that the godly which are in our Assemblies do not at all tollerate the wicked profane but doe as much as in them lieth shew their dislike to them mourning also for their profanenesse and for the want of Christian discipline whereby they might be separated Yea the very Lawes of our Church as hath beene above said doe separate from our Assemblies the open prophane Secondly admit they did not at all shut out the prophanie either because they know not their right or for that they are hindred and restrained to doe it or that they sin in not using their right in this case or if it were granted that the people even the private members of the assemblies had full authoritie given them by Christ without the Ministers or Magistrates consent to cast out and excommunicate the open profane the contrary whereof hath been before sufficiently proved yet might they as lawfully for want of power or for such inconveniences tollerate the prophanie amongst them and so forbeare the execution of their authoritie in this case as either David did spare Joab 2 Sam 3 39. 2. Kings 14 5. or Amaziah those rebels that slew his father because they were not strong enough doe justice upon them Thirdly the communicating in Gods service with these open sinners Thirdly they may be true members of the Church though they doe communicate in Gods worship with the open profane as may appeare by the example of the godly that lived under the law whom the godly in some of our assemblies are enforced to communicate with or to want the benefit of Gods publike worship is not sufficient either to make him profane or pollute unto them the holy things of God for proofe whereof we alleadge First the examples of the godly that lived under the Ceremoniall law The Prophets either served not God at all in the Temple or else they joyned in Gods service with many that were notoriously stained with grosse sinnes for who are they whose sinnes the Prophets so mightily cry out upon (d) Esay 1.10 Jer. 5.1.9 and 7 8.11 Ezek. 16 4●.52 and 22 25.26 but such as were admitted to the publike worship of God If the Babylonians and the Caldeans should violently have included themselves into the Church assemblies of Gods people in the time of their captivitie should the godly Jewes by such presence of the wicked which they wanted power to hinder either have beene perswaded to cease