a mean to continue unity and order in the Kirk without which it cannot be long kept They tell us that this is the very argument and language of the Advocats of the Sea of Rome and the thing that set up the Man of Sin to sit in the Temple of God as God c. So pag. 112. arg 14. They call it a Tenet purely Popish and Antichristian and cite a sentence of Duvallius concerning the duty of an Excommunicate man albeit innocent to abstain from holy things And pag. 111. arg 13. They urge the Canon of Prelates ordaining Non-submitters to the Sentences of Suspension or Deposition to be Excommunicate And generally throughout this Pamphlet they traduce it as an absolute arbitrary unlimitted Submission that is required and a tyrannicall Imposition Of all which it concerns them to see how they if they be kindly children will clear the Doctrine of their Mother-church above expressed But to give a more particular answer so far as is necessary at this time to these things 1. It is indeed too true and sadly felt that the schismaticall and turbulent carriage of such as the Authors of this Pamphlet hath given but too great advantage to all the enemies of truth and of Presbyteriall Government in particular while Popish Seminarie Priests take advantage to perswade people to the obedience of Rome since we cannot agree among our selves while prelates and their faction have occasion to boast that shortly after they were outed we run all into confusion and while Independents see no such beauty unity and order in a National Church as was given out to be under Presbyteriall Government and while they hear them traduce one of the best Reformed Churches as corrupt both in the generality of her Church-members and Ministers But that this assertion can be a stumbling to any is to us incredible For 2. If we look upon all Governments Civil or Ecelesiasticall under heaven albeit there be different judgements concerning the subject of the Authority as in a State whether the Government should be Democraticall and the Auhority in the body of the People or Aristrocraticall in the Nobles and better part or Monarchicall in one person or mixed and made up of two or all of these So in a Church whether the Authority should be in a Congregation or Congregationall Eldership in Presbyteries and Synods in Bishops or Popes of Rome Yet all agree that Subordination and Submission is due to the Authority in their persons whom they hold ought to be invested with it And particularly as for Independents we assert with Mr. Rutherfurd Peac. Plea pag. 246. that we require no other subjection than they do For they make ten to be subject to five hundreth in an Independent Congregation In so much that either these ten must submit to the determinations of the rest let them judge them never so sinfull if they cannot perswade the rest to be of their mind or else they must resolve to be cast out by Excommunication or to go out and renounce communion with that Society and make up a Church of their own But abiding in that Society the Submission is unavoidable So Mr. George Gillespie in the Assert of the Govern of the Church of Scotland part 2. chap. 4. pag. 152 153. in answer to that Objection That it is contrary to Christian liberty and the use of the private judgement of discretion to inflict Censures upon any who professe that after examination of the decrees they cannot be perswaded of the lawfulnesse of the same among other things saith This Objection doth militat no less against Ecclesiasticall Censures in a particular Congregation than in a National Synod And they who do at all approve of Church Censures to be inflicted upon the contemptuous and obstinate shall put in our mouthes an Answer to Objections of this kind Yea our Writers against the Independents and particularly the Assembly of Divines in their Answer to the Reasons of the Dissenting Brethren pag. 253 254 255. follow the charge so home that the charge of Tyranny or Injurious Independency laid by Independents at the door of National Assemblies where there is not the remedy of a General Council is most justly retorted upon themselves who take upon them to inflict the highest Censure of Excommunication without any remedy under Heaven to any grieved person it not being reversible by any on Earth but by themselves Whereas in this Government after a grieved person hath followed-up his Appeal even to a National Assembly there is yet a further possible help by a well constituted Occumencal Assembly if it may be had By all all which it appears that Independents need not take advantage of this Assertion though we and they differ about the Subject invested with the Authority The words subjoyned by these Reverend Divines pag. 255. are worthy to be marked to our purpose But say they If a person conceiving himself to be injured in a National Assembly cannot obtain redress either from another succeeding National Assembly or from a superiour Assembly he must commit his cause to God as having indeed exonered his own Conscience and pursued a remedy in the use of all lawfull means And so must he that may conceive himself wronged by Classical or Provincial Assemblies if he cannot have the opportunity of appealing further in like manner as he that thinketh himself civilly injured by the Parliament or Supream Power in a State and hath no other way to obtain redress As these are expressions beseeming the piety wisdom and moderation of men of God lovers of true Order and Government in Christs House So they clearly homologate the opinion of the worthy Presbyterians in England before them and the judgement of this Church expressed in the former Articles and do fully evince that in their judgment a party though conceiving himself injured and possibly really injured as is supposed in his liberty of appealing as was cleared before ought yet to submit to the Sentence not only till his Appeal be discussed but after also if his Appeal be decided against him even as privat men do submit to injuries from the Supream Power in a State To which purpose also we have the testimony of Mr. Henderson in his Government and Order of the Church of Scotland pag. 34 35. where agreeable to the Doctrine of ancient Presbyterians he asserteth it lawfull for a person wronged by an inferiour Assembly to seek relief of the greater providing it be done in an humble and peaceable way So also Beza Epist 68. One may appeal if he do it without tumult and publick scandal 3. As to the imputation of Popery and Prelacy cast upon us in this They are not ignorant that many before them have charged this on Presbyterial Government and have been as often answered Had they consulted with what our Divines say in this matter and among the rest with Mr. Rutherfurd in the place before cited Peac. Plea pag. 246. concerning the many differences betwixt our and
Covenant or a dividing from it although the Offender in his conscience believe it to be no sin Yea peradventure believe it to be a duty Otherwise it had been tyranny over the conscience to punish those who killed the Apostles because they thought they were doing God good service Joh. 16.2 2. But seing all men and even Church-judicatories are fallible let it be supposed that a Sentence is unjust and be it still remembred that it is but supposed and not yeelded For as it can hardly be imagined that a Judge will pronounce a Sentence which he accounteth unjust So we desire that our supposing the injustice of their Sentence be understood without any prejudice to Judicatories right in maintaining the justice of their own Sentences And let the Question be of a Church so constituted and sound and orthodox as is before expressed and of Sentences such as we have qualified for the matter of them And we do hold that they ought to be submitted unto and suffered under without counteracting and that the former considerations pressing Submission in generall do take place even in this case This we might easily confirm from the generall practice of the Godly in all ages and particularly of the Non-conformists who as they put a vast difference between subjection and obedience so in their practice they did chearfully suffer under unjust Sentences and did vindicate the aspersions cast upon their non-obedience by their readinesse to submit and suffer Who so will be pleased to peruse Parker on the Crosse Chap. 4. Sect. 12 14 15. will find they were so far from owning Non-submission to these unjust Sentences of Bishops for their non-conformity that they did owne Submission and vindicate their practice in submitting from the aspersions cast upon them for it and did encourage themselves and the Church by believing that the losse of their Ministry should be the Lords gain and the Churches It is the positive judgement of Beza as we heard before from his Epist 12. that godly men in England should not continue to preach against the Queen and Bishops will where he addeth that having in these cases attested their own innocencie and essayed all remedies in the fear of the Lord they should yeeld to manifest violence The Provinciall Assembly of South-holland met at Delph go a further length against the Remonstrants Act. Synod Dordr pag. 86 87. where having spoken severall things in answer to the Arminians argument against a Synod and their Submission thereunto because the Members thereof are all fallible men and having asserted that there is ground of confidence that Christ according to His promise will be present and direct a lawfull Synod gathered together in His fear to judge in matters according to the Word of God that nothing shall be decreed therein to the prejudice of His Truth and Kingdom They expresly adde Sed fac aliquid ejusmodi decretum iri c. But let it be supposed that some such thing be decreed yet truth will not therefore still be kept at under but will in due time break forth again But in the mean time order quietnesse and peace ought to be kept in the Church of Christ For God is not the God of confusion or disorder but of peace and therefore will have all things to be done in His Church orderly peaceably and quietly Now there can be no order nor peace in the Church of God if every man be permitted to teach what he will and be not obliged to give an account of his Doctrine nor submit himself to the judgement of any Synod according to the precept of the Apostle 1 Cor. 14.29.32 Another instance in stead of many is the judgement and practice of these Authors of the Treatise formerly mentioned against the Brownists suffering for the cause of Non-conformity They being challenged by the Brownists for going to the Bishops Courts for standing and falling at their commandment or yeelding to their suspensions and deprivations After they have given their reasons for their going to these Courts and reverencing and yeelding to their Censures according to the Law of the Land whâ—ch did establish conformity They adde pag. 41. If it be said That the Church is not to be obeyed when it suâ—pendeth and depriveth us for such causes as we in our consciences know to be insufficient We answer That it lieth in them to Depose that may Ordain and they may shut that may open And that as he may with a good conscience execute a Ministery by the Ordinance and calling of the Church who is privy to himselfe of some uâ—…fitnesse if the Church will presse him to it so may he who is privy to himselfe of no fault that deserveth Deprivation cease from the execution of his Ministery when he is pressed thereunto by the Church And if a guiltlesse person put out of his charge by the Churches Authority may yet continue in it What proceedings can there be against guilty persons who in their own conceit are alwayes guiltlesse or will at least pretend to be so Seing they also will be ready alwayes to object against the Churches judgement that they are called of God and may not therefore give over the execution of their Ministery at the will of man By which it evidently appeareth that the judgement and practice of these ancient Worthies and suffering Presbyterians hath been point-blank opposit to the Doctrine of these new Teachers and modellers of Government and that the strength of the Arguments in this Pamphlet were not unknown to them when they thus determined and practised as may appear from the very last words above cited and from what we have elswhere cited of their Answer to the Objection taken from Act. 4.19 20. But that we may make this truth appear more distinctly we premit these generall considerations 1. That the wise Lord hath been pleased to intrust the Government of His House into the hands of fallible men who not only may but sometime actually do erre 2. That no judge either Civil or Ecclesiasticall hath any Commission or Authority from God to sin or enact an unjust Sentence And that this is not to be restricted to Church-judicatories only cannot be doubted by any Christian who holdeth the Magistrats Authority and Commission to be from God who doth not authorize any to sin For as power is given to the Church to edification and not to destruction So Magistrates ought not to be a terrour to good works but to the evil Rom. 13.3 3. That every particular wrong act or acts do not divest a Judge of his Authority though it be granted he hath no Commission or Authority to do these acts as they assert p. 96. praecog 5. but he remaineth the Judge and lawfull Authority of the Church or Nation as is clear in right reason and by Scripture Rules For if it be asserted that an unjust Sentence one or moe do make void the Authority of the Judge this will overthrow all Government Ecclesiasticall Civill or
cast in our teeth Act. Synod pag. 87 c. These and many the like passages recorded in that Preface and rejected and refuted in the Synod may shew that it is not without cause we are suspicious of their wayes whom we find to walk in these paths which had well nigh ruined that Church And who so desireth further satisfaction in this matter we intreat that beside the Preface they will ponder the Remonstrants Conditiones habendae Synodi with the Answer of the Synod of Delph thereunto and the judgement of the forreign Divines upon their Declinatour especially of those of Geneva All which are recorded in the Acts of that Synod But we come to the particulars I. They vindicate their Protestations against the two last Assemblies as not being destructive to the Government because they professe the contrary in these very Protestations and these Protestations were only made against undue qualifications of and prelimitations made by persons assuming the exercise of Government which the duty they owe to the Government and preservation thereof constrained them to testifie against after the example of our fathers of old And they think it strange that the Authors of the Declaration should wrap up the authority of those two Assemblies and of that part of the ministeriall Church which is of their judgement in the very being of the Government as if the Government could not be owned nor subsist the authority of these meetings being denied and the corruptions of men discovered and acknowledged So pag. 17 18. Answ This would have been judged strange doctrine in the Generall Assembly 1638. where it is put in the Sentences of severall of the Prelates that declining and protesting against the Assembly is censurable with summar Excommunication and yet these Prelates did pretend reasons of their deed no lesse valid themselves being Judges than they think their own to be in their judgement Yea we are not forgetfull how it was asserted also before our differences by a leading man of that party acquainted with the Acts of this Church That protesting against an Act of a Generall Assembly or of Delegats having their power did deserve the same censure But as to these their Protestations seing they do here not only endeavour to vindicate themselves as doing no wrong to the Government thereby but all along lay the corrupt constitution of these Assemblies as a crime to our charge and do pretend it as a warrant for their irregular actings and a great obstruction to unity as may be seen throughout the Pamphlet We must once for all put them in minde that this matter hath been spoken to already the nullity of their proceeding in these Protestations discovered their exceptions against these Assemblies again repeated in this Pamphlet answered and the practice of our fore-fathers cleared and vindicated partly in the Observations upon our differences and partly in the late Representation which are unanswered to this day And therefore it doth concern them to satisfie unbyassed men with more solid arguments than naked assertions especially in a matter of such importance against which so much hath been argued and upon which they lay so much weight and which if it prove to be wrong they must undoubtedly conclude themselves among the most turbulent men that have lived in a true reformed Church In the mean time till they bethink themselves of this we must tell them 1. Their fair Professions in their Protestations will not blind the eyes of discerning men to make them believe that they did not wrong the Government thereby but had a care of the preservation thereof Experience teacheth that worst of courses do usually lay claim to fairest of pretences and that Innovators do ordinarily intend the quite contrary to what they pretend though we shall be far from judging so of many who followed that course in the simplicity of their heart 2. As to their quarrelling that we wrap the Authority of these Meetings and the plurality of other Judicatories which is the ministeriall Church of our judgement as themselves confesse all-along in the very being of the Government Though we confesse Presbyteriall Government is an Ordinance of Christ and might be owned and subsist albeit there were not a Church in Scotland Yet we are sure it is not mens respect to the abstract notion of Church-government or to the exercise thereof in Vtopia that will prove them friends to it while in the mean time they oppose it as it is exercised in the Reformed Churches And therefore as we are far from judging the discovering of mens corruptions to be destructive to the Government provided the matter be orderly pursued and judicially made out not alleaged only So we do constantly maintain that their rejecting of the Judicatories of this Church as not worthy of their trust upon the account of the corruption of the plurality thereof doth in effect overturn the Government in this Church and striketh against it in all Reformed Churches also there being through the mercie of God generally as fit Officers among us as else where And as to their Protestations we fear not to assert that thereby they have given the saddest blow to the Government of this Church of any it hath met with since the Prelats were removed For hereby they have opened a door to all confusion And as they have striken at the being of two Assemblies So their Reasons if of any weight will conclude as strongly against others before these and their example may teach others as well as themselves to decline all Church-judicatories so often as they please 3. We wonder how they can alleage prelimitations of these Assemblies as a proof of their nullity suppose the charge were true as it hath elsewhere been proven to be a calumnie when yet they will admit of no Assembly as lawfull without prelimitations enow yea where we are the plurality as they expresse themselves pag. 91 93. and elsewhere This is indeed to give out with one measure and take-in with another II. As to the charge of their planting Congregations in a disorderly way and counteracting to the determination of Judicatories in that matter They do upon the matter confesse the thing and indeed the world knoweth they have acted in a tumultuous and disorderly way which themselves acknowledge to be a fault great enough pag. 19. only they strive to mollifie it diverse wayes First by giving an account of the causes moving them so to do which are at length deduced pag. 19 20 21 22. Namely That by the Publick Resolutions and the Constitution and Acts of the late Assemblies malignant men have got up their head in Congregations and Presbyteries to bring-in others like themselves and hold-out able and godly men All which they think might perswade them to a preterition of some things otherwise fit to be observed in the course of formality and order Answ 1. This is indeed a very notable testimony they give their Mother-church in the day of her reproach from adversaries
Prelates tenet to that effect and consequently do not speak to the case of passive submission which is the matter in debate betwixt us and for which we hope to give relevant grounds these principles being all granted II. As to the persons or Judicatories to whom this Submission is due We do not urge Subordination or Submission to any Judge incompetent or which is not Ecclesiasticall Nor to any Ecclesiastcal Officer or Judicatory that is not of Christs institution Nor to any corrupt society calling themselves a Church or Judicatory of Christ while they are a Synagogue of Satan standing in opposition to the Doctrine of Christ But we plead for Subordination and Submission in a true Church and to Christs own Courts and Officers in her such as we hold the Church of Scotland now constituted to be For further clearing their mistakes in this matter we shall branch-out this Assertion in these 1. We plead not for Submission to an incompetent Judicatorie or a Judicatory not Ecclesiastical Upon this account among other reasons to be after mentioned as they might have spared Amos his not submitting to Amaziah pag. 100. who was not his Judge and the Apostles not submitting to the Council at Jerusalem pag. 101. which was no Judge-competent to any Officer of the Church of the New Testament there being other Courts appointed for the Government thereof as they conveened a Synod for judging of Doctrine and censuring of Offenders Act. 15. So all their instances of Non-submission of Church-officers in the matters of their Office to Civil Authority in the first instance fall to the ground For we hope it is agreed that Erastianism is contrary to the Word of God and condemned in this Church Though as to this matter we know not what to say of the judgment of these Witnesses For on the one hand they seem to magnifie Osianders observation though none of the most Orthodox Divines nor yet the most moderate of his party concerning the liberty of fleeing to the Magistrate pag. 58 59. and yet pag. 100. they put Civil and Ecclesiastical Authority in one Classe as to the matter of Submission We are sure whatever hath been their practice of application to the Civil Power it hath not been to preserve them from persecution but that they might obtain power to persecute And if they will turn Erastians we can say no further but the more wrongs the worse and omne Schisma parit Errorem as we have too much proof of their many new principles Though indeed whatever their pretences be for their own ends they are known to be alike respective both of Civil and Ecclesiastical Authority and that the overturning of either or both is alike to them before they reach not their ends 2. We plead not for Submission to Officers and Judicatories not of Christs own institution such as not only Popes but Prelates who drew all things in subjection to their Cathedral Church as is cleared by Divines destinguishing betwixt Presbyterial and Episcopal Government and Synods and were no lawful Church-Officers So that here their arguments conclude not taken from the practice of Ministers not submitting to the Sentences of Prelates in this Church pag. 55. For 1 It is not clear to us that they did not submit to the Censures inflicted We do find the contrary supposed in the Writings of these times both of one side and other that upon these Sentences they were to be put out of their places as is insinuated in a Treatise published anno 1620. by an opposer of Conformity bearing the Title of A Dialogue betwixt Cosmophilus and Theophilus As also in Mr. Struthers Letter to the Earl of Airth in the year 1630. printed 1635. It is true some of them preached after their Sentences But it is to be remembred that whatever was the after-strictnesse of Prelats in their Canons published anno 1636. of which mention is made by these Witnesses pag. 111. Yet at their first dealling with honest men so far as they can remember who suffered by them they did not depose them simpliciter from the Ministery but only desposed or removed them from their Ministery at the Kirk where they served and from the Benefice And this they all submitted unto having by their Protestations and Declinators born testimony against them as incompetent Judges though they preached elsewhere And this is the more probable to us in that never any of these sufferers were pursued so far as we can remember with any Censure by them for their preaching after the Sentence and in that when some of them were permitted to return to their charges there was not any re-admission of them thereunto which had been necessary if they had been simpliciter deposed but a simple returning to their work 2. But suppose they did not submit and let it be yeelded also that their Non-submission was nothing the weaker that the cause for which they were Sentenced was unjust as they urge pag. 55 56. and particularly that they were Sentenced for not conforming to Popish Innovations introduced in the Church or not acknowledging Prelatical Authority which is far from our case as we shall after hear yet they laid the weight of their Non-submission upon their Judges being no Officers appointed by Christ to rule His House which some if not all of them witnessed by their Declinatures in the time of their being Sentenced For they can bring no instance of any one of them Sentenced by Presbyteries only and they not submitting And however they alleage pag. 55. that the Prelats did sometime associate to themselves the Ministery of those bounds where the supposed Delinquent served that is the Presbyterie whereof he was a member which was a lawfull Authority Yet we cannot learn that de facto they did associat these unto them in censuring such as did not submit whatever was their practice in censuring some others for grosse scandals but did proceed in these in their High Commission Court Nor do we think these Witnesses believe they did associate or call these unto them that they might act authoritatively with them as a Presbyterie but they did all by their own Authority 3. Withall it is to be remarked that however some Ministers did not give Submission to the Sentences of Prelats in this Church where Prelacy was but in introducing and was not fully setled to the divesting of Presbyteries of their power Yet the practice of Non-conformists in England where that had been the only Government from the beginning of Reformation was different where they not only submitted to the unjust Sentences of Prelats yea of their Commissaries and Officials but being quarrelled therefore by the Brownists they wrote a Treatise in defence of the Church of England and themselves since published by Mr. Rathband anno 1644. under the tittle of A most grave and modest Confutation of the Brownists wherein they assert That the Church of England being a true Church and Episcopall Government the only Church-government established by Authority though
their evil courses though we know nothing done but the naked testimonies of Judicatories against them they ought not to repine IV. As to their vindication of their endeavours to set up extra-judiciall Committees of equal numbers for managing of the affairs of this Church to which they speak pag. 31. 39. We cannot but observe a notable piece of nimblenesse in their managing of this defence For they bring-in this challenge mentioned in the Declaration only as it is complained of that the not granting of that Overture of extrajudiciall Committees of equal numbers of both judgements to be chosen by the respective parties was a cause of breaking-up the Conference for Union without mentioning that other part of the complaint that they endeavoured and with much eagernesse prosecuted that design imploying all their credit with all sort of persons for that effect to have the same imposed upon us when they were at London Only they huddle-up what is said of that as a resuming and prosecuting that same point As if the Authors of the Declaration were complaining in both places of their breaking off the Conference only upon this matter And so all-along they hold us to the Article as propounded to us Only they give an hint of an Overture the same for substance as it was propounded to us without speaking to what an Overture it was and when or how given-in This is indeed an handsom or rather unhandsom conveyance or shifting of what they had no will to meet with For to say no more any unbyassed person will see a vast difference betwixt a desire to have an extraordinary Overture take place in a Church by the common consent of those who are concerned and some privat persons endeavouring and that after other designes to the great prejudice if not ruin of this Church had miscarried in their hand to have such things imposed upon the Church by the Civil Power when they had no Commission from the Church for that effect and knew it was dessented from in a former Conference by the Ministers of the Church upon whom they would have it imposed This is an usurpation upon a Church and her Government which we believe no sound Presbyterian will justifie nor any others who are not Erastians as was judged by godly Presbyterians upon the place when these Proposals were made to whom the Churches of Christ owe thanks for their testimonie to the Truth against such projects But to consider what they say leaving that distinction betwixt the essentials and circumstantials of Government pag. 33 34. to which we have spoken before They confesse it is an Overture out of the common road of ordinary procedure pag. 37. and therefore they are but in petitorio with it and had need to make their arguments for perswading us to run out of the way which we believe to be of God very pungent and pressing before we can yeeld to their desire We conceive their discourse on this subject may be reduced to these heads First That the decaying and distempered estate of the Church calleth for and alloweth such an Overture otherwise they professe they would be as far from pressing it as any other pag. 32 33. Which is upon the matter as we may hear more fully afterward that were they once the plurality and in power they would be loath to let it out of their hands or let any such Committee be set over them or any party presume to nominate an equall half of these Committees This we do very easily believe but now so long as they are out and cannot be content of their lot and share in Government as their number in Judicatories alloweth all must be corrupt and all the Judicatories cast loose and trod upon as unwilling and unable to do a good turn But to the matter As we know no other distemper nor unpeaceableness of this Church but what themselves have made and continued and therefore may cure it whenever they please to weary of these courses So for the supposed corruption thereof we have already considered how they have made it out Only we blesse God they will find no unsound Doctrine or Worship nor scandals in conversation approven in this Church nor yet that this Church is upon the declining hand since our differences as to the planting of able and honest Ministers And we do again assert That whatever corruption there be in Members of this Church yet this remedie once admitted of turning the Government out of the channel which we believe to be of God would be far worse than the disease and a preparative of most dangerous consequence whenever any party should be pleased to make use of the same Yea if upon the supposall of our corruption they infer the necessity of extrajudicial Commitees may not others gather much more from such premises Were it even a seperation from us or a prelacy as their Commitees are in effect in some honest hands to controul us in our actings They again inculcate pag. 33. That General Assemblies conceived extraordinary visitations needfull when the Church was in a better condition than now and when not a few in Presbyteries and Synods did say it was a foundation for an imputation upon Synods and Presbyteries Answ But to repeat nothing of what hath been said of the present case of this Church any body with half an eye may see a difference betwixt a General Assembly the Supream Nationall Church-judicatory their appointing their own Delegats chosen without respect to factions by plurality of Suffrages for going about a work and this extrajudicial Committee chosen by parties to do the affairs of Presbyteries and Synods Must it not be strange arguing That because General Assemblies appointed Visitations to try and censure therefore they should conclude guilt is found on the plurality of Ministers whereas themselves have found it otherwise where they have power and made trial of men and where they made as great a clamour of the corruption of men of our judgment as now they raise of them in other places And therefore also either must they who are a dividing party have matters tried in an extrajudiciall way without order otherwise they will do what they can to overturn the Church They retort pag. 37 38. That though they have not the same power the Generall Assembly had so to do yet the Assemblies ground and reason moving them to appoint these Visitations doth yet remain viz. that Presbyteries and Synods were not so healthy as to do these things of themselves which is much more true now when malignant men are got above hatches and sundry of them set to the helm Answ But 1. Is it not great presumption to parallel Visitations appointed by Assemblies and chosen by themselves according to Order and these Committees chosen by parties Did Synods choose such Visitations according to Order as they do upon occasion within their own bounds who would condemn it but for parties to impose a Nomination on a Synod is another matter
2. Is it not as great presumption in them to judge that to have been the Assemblies moving cause in appointing Visitations which they have not given-out themselves but only of some few Presbyteries here and there especially in the remotest corners as if they could appoint none but where their Delegats must find guilt whether it be or not Might they not well enough appoint Visitations to try and know the estate of the Church in severall corners and to censure where they found ought amiss without concluding that Synods and Presbyteries were unhealthy to do their work We can instruct they appointed places to be visited where our Brethren themselves would be loath to say Judicatories were not able nor willing either to do that work themselves yea their mentioning the miscarriages only of some Presbyteries as the cause why they appoint them to be visited doth clearly assoil other places appointed also to be visited where there is no mention of any such thing as may be seen from the Commissions themselves But to clear this matter a little it seems these Witnesses have a faculty of forgetting any thing that is not to their purpose For others who were at the Assembly 1648. at which time these Visitations first began those of the Isles and Highlands only excepted and the Assemblies following do very well remember that albeit the enormities of some few Presbyteries did call-for such Visitations and albeit all these Commissions were drawn up in the general and ordinary form giving power to try and censure any faults that should be found and that in some of them in any Presbyterie within a Province as well as another Yet the Assemblies were moved to appoint most of these Visitations neither upon the account of the generall corruption or aversness of the greater part of the Presbyteries to do that work nor yet mainly for cognoscing upon other scandals But chiefly for the trial and censure of such as had accession to the sinfull courses and defections of the time to the prejudice of the work of Reformation Wherein the Judicatories were like to meet with difficulties from persons within the several bounds who were either actually carrying-on or censured for these courses and not as yet reconciled to the Church And therefore the Assemblies did fall upon that way as the most effectual in that exigent for carrying-on the work notwithstanding these difficulties and did choose rather to take that matter into the hands of their own Delegats than let Presbyteries wrestle therein with much disadvantage in several places Which being well remembred will commend much the prudence of the Assemblies but not at all reflect upon the Presbyteries 3. We have already cleared that there is no cause to assert that this Church is in a worse condition now than when many of these were in who are now purged out or that there is any malignant faction among us except they will call them so who do oppose their irregularities and therefore they would first prove that there is a faction standing in opposition to the work of Reformation before they so often cast it upon us 4. As we are not bound to maintain the language of any particular persons against the proceedings of Assemblies who it may be were afterward for just causes put to the door nor yet to believe all that they assert of this kind So that they dare not fasten this upon any Presbyteries or Synods though they are pleased to speak of not a few in them is to us a proof that Presbyteries and Synods were not unwilling to have that work done as they alleage And withall the carpings of some men at the regular and orderly proceedings of their superiour Judicatories who had they been in these times might have learned not to submit to them since they judged not their Sentences just should not stop our mouthes from challenging the usurpations of others They tell us also pag. 38 39. that to avoid this Overture they did offer that the Commission and Visitations of the Assembly 1650. might sit if not by Authority derived from that Assembly yet by the mutual condescendencie and approbation of Presbyteries whereby also they might have power to compose differences Ans But they having before that time approven their own Protestations and condemned two General Assemblies and upon that account sitten in that Commission without so much as a copie of their Commission as a Judicatory to continue so long as they were pleased to protest against any subsequent General Assemblies and to manage all the publick affairs of the Church In that case it was not lawfull for us to accord the Overture of setting up Courts whose Commissions were long ago expired and some of which they had striven to keep up upon the ruines of the Assemblies Nor do we see that Presbyteries except conveened in a Generall Assembly and by giving a new Commission could authorize men to act in so universall and large a capacity where themselves had no jurisdiction or authorize men in no other Provinces to exercise jurisdiction over themselves Secondly That our exceptions against this extrajudiciall Committee are irrelevant To this purpose they speak several things pag. 34 35 36 37. whereof we give this brief account 1. They tell us that they desire none to be in these Visitations but members of the respective Synods Answ But then sure the Committee in whole being of equall numbers will be but a small number if any at all in some Synods where few or none of their judgement are 2. They tell us that no power is desired to be given them but what is Ecclesiasticall and that they are not to proceed by any rule but by the Word of God and Acts of uncontroverted Assemblies where we must at all occasions lay by other Assemblies because they are pleased to controvert and question them Answ But they should first have cleared to us that such a Court so chosen is a Court of Christs institution and that to be equally divided of different judgements and these chosen not by the Synods but the respective parties are Scripturall qualifications of a Church-judicatory 3. They tell us that they desire not their power to be derived from any fountain but from the Synod it self Answ But yet they endeavoured to have it imposed upon the Synods that they should give them that power and the Synods may justly question if they be bound by the Word of God to give their power to persons whom they have not the credit to choice whose election qualifications that they be of both judgements in equal numbers work and way of their calling them to an account are all imposed upon them and prescribed to their hand 4. They tell us the nomination is made by no forinsick persons party or power but by intrinsick members of the Synod it self Answ But they well know that this is not the way of Church-government where nominations go by the suffrages of the Judicatories 5. They tell us we wrong
any ill that is done without needing to call for a meeting of Delegats from all the parts of the Country and waiting their leasure to advise and consent while in the mean time their Committees may put the matter past remedy one way or other And how can a Synod out the ratification of their proceedings to the question If the not ratification of them be not the other member of the Question And if not ratification import a reversing do not the Synods make too bold with their Masters and Tutors to hazard that upon a Question Or if it import not a reversing then we must learn this new principle of Government that a Synod may not only refuse to ratifie but by a judiciall sentence pronounce the non-ratification of the determination of a Committee subordinate and countable to them and yet these determinations stand unreversed But they assure us further that not only is the Synod free to ratifie but they are not simply tied by the Overture to follow the advice of these Delegats in case of their advising them to reverse the deeds of these Committees Answ But we are sure they are so tied by the Overture that suppose they themselves judge the most part yea all of their Committees deeds to be not only simply worthy to be reversed but most horrid and blasphemous yet they may not without the consent foresaid reverse any of them And if they will allow the corrupt Synods so much as a libertie not to hearken to their Tutors advising them to reverse what they think amisse why will they not also allow them as much on the other hand as libertie to reverse what themselves think amisse though their Counsellers differ from them in that also The truth is we hardly think that indeed they do allow them any such liberty and that there may be a safe glosse were the matter once practicable put upon the Synods not being simply tied by the Overture which would teach them better manners than to sleight the advice of their betters But we professe we are weary and grieved to see men so ludere in re seria and think to please judicious and conscientious men with complements 10. They tell us further that we wrong them in saying this Overture was propounded as a perpetuall standing way alwayes to be followed to perpetuate difference and contentions Answ And yet they have not answered the argument which was propounded in the Declaration for proof of this viz. that yoking of parties of equal numbers together in debates as must be in these Committees will rather widen a breach than heal it seing they will not probably cede to other Sure we are we may lose hope of some of them who in our Judicatories can by no reasoning be drawn to quit the conclusion which they had in all appearance instilled into them before they came in Withall they had done well to answer another argument insinuated for proving this viz. that their power continuing till the present differences be healed the composing whereof with all future divisions is put in their hands and not at all to be meddled with by the Judicatories Are not all the Judicatories then at their mercy to continue them short or long yea perpetually if they please It is true they make an alternative of another better way to be ministred in providence for settling peace upon which their power is to expire But the Judicatories are at a losse about that also being sure our Brethren or their Delegats have a negative voice whether that be a better way indeed or not And we are so much the more afraid of this better way since in case this present way shall not please them they give us no hope of recurring to Christs own Institutions but they will have us look for some better way to be ministred in providence for setling peace which for ought we know may be ten times worse This also being hinted in that short Declaration with other considerations against those Proposals we leave to others to judge why they lost it with other two above repeated in their so large Answer to a short Paper wherein but a few prejudices of many were-mentioned as might be easily made-out by a large addition were it needfull V. As to our challenging of the Order procured by some of them putting the power of giving testimonie to Intrants which is due to Presbyteries only in the hands of some select persons of their own choosing They say pag 61 62. 1. That they wonder this should be mentioned seing the Protesting Party did not imbrace nor make use of that Order Answ But if they did not imbrace nor make use of it because it was prejudicial to the right of Church-judicatories then they confirm all that is said of it viz. That it was an endeavour of some of their party to enervate the power of Church-judicatories though it pleased the Lord to break that snare For their making use of it is not spoken to in the Declaration Yet we must adde that some will tell them That even those who pretended not to imbrace that Order yet dealt with others who were for it to let them have the benefit of it in their particulars which will hardly amount to a serious testimonie and opposition 2. They say that he who is blamed in this matter did but give his advice in that matter being required and when he saw the Order was not accepted he laid it aside and did not prosecute it any further Answ But who authorized him or others if any others of them did joyn with him in it to give advice in matters concerning the whole Kirk without the consent of or Commission from the Kirk which was the crime laid of old in the Prelats dish as a breach of these Caveats whereby their power was at first restrained after they had crept into this Church What warrant had he to lay aside the Presbyteries in that matter as not worthy to be intrusted with testifying concerning those whom they are authorized by Christ to try and ordain and put it in the hand of a Juncto Was it to teach those in power to sleight Church-judicatories With what face can they assert that he thought it fit Certificates should be granted by a select number of both judgements as if this had been a Committee of equal numbers when the quite contrary is clear from that Order For therein Scotland being divided in five Circuits or Provinces and no Intrant being to have maintenance without the Testimonie of four at least of these persons authorized for that effect in the respective Provinces The matter is so conveyed as in no one Circuit there are a competent number to give a Certificate named of our judgement as there is of theirs in every one of them and only here one and there another of ours added and yet there are a sufficient number of Independents named for one of these Provinces which containeth so much bounds as made
we love to jest in our speaking of what some Presbyteries required of men of whatsoever judgement enquiring if they laid bonds on men of their own judgement that they should not debate for the Protestation and who gave them power to lay bonds on men of their own judgement seing the Assemblies Act speaks only of men of the other judgement To which we shall only answer with silence seing the matter is plain enough to themselves when they are pleased to come to it at last and Presbyteries might do all that had there been no Act of Assemblies in these matters confessing that indeed this is no matter of sport and if we be very merry we have not so much cause as some of our neighbours if we reckon by outward advantages 3. They break high upon us That some Presbyteries should impose silence upon men of their own judgement and yet we give them so ill example in our Representation and Declaration pag. 79. And what doth all this amount to but that we would be peaceable but they would not let us but either we must let them run all down or say somewhat for our own defence And yet the scope of all that is said in these Papers is to draw them and with them our selves to lay by the debate 4. As to what they deny of their activity for strengthning their Party and do insinuate of a reflection upon the Expectants of our judgement The particulars being so notoure through the Church both what they have done and what many of these Expectants of our judgement are we shall rest confident that such assertions as these will gain them but little credit where the truth of things is known 6. They take it ill that any thing is said in behalf of the Assemblies proceeding to censure any of their number which yet they cannot condemn till they make good their charge against these Resolutions and Assemblies and that we should lay any weight upon their Non-submission Seing we are not to thank that they did not submit they having suffered so many things at our hands and with our connivance But it proceeded only from the conscience of their own innocency and the iniquity and nullity of these Sentences pag. 80 81. Answ But as we are sure many others do not judge of these Sentences as they do nor it may be will they so look upon them themselves when they are brought to think seriously of making an account for their carriage both before and since these Censures So it is true notwithstanding all they say that they have not submitted And it is no great wonder if their not submitting and not hearkening to tearms of Peace have bred themselves and us both some trouble or that many in the Land do look upon them as turbulent and implacable men Yet all they can truly complain of amounteth to no more but this That a Synod did not to refuse to admit but take time to deliberate if they should admit one of them for a Correspondent seing it would import their condemning of a Sentence inflicted by a lawfull Judicatory though his spirit could neither submit to such delay nor suffer him to go away without such a carriage toward a Judicatory of Christ as we believe himself may find cause to be ashamed of That Judicatories of which some of them formerly were members could not owne them as Ministers who had been deposed by a lawfull General Assembly but did intimate their Sentence when they found they would not hearken to tearms of Union And that some of their Congregations who could not owne them for their Ministers when they could not be rid of them did seek to themselves a lawfull Pastor to whom they might submit And for what hath been between some of their Congregations and them we believe their pursuing of their people criminally though they were assoiled in Law and it was found they had pursued them unjustly will speak who exposeth others to suffer most However all these inconveniences might easily be helped by an Union if they had not the humour to force themselves upon the consciences of Ministers and People whether they will or not 7. Albeit whatever might be said of these Sentences we were content they should be taken-off in such a way as might not bind upon them the acknowledgement of the two late Assemblies or of the lawfulness and justice of these Censures Yet that doth not please them seing the Censures are not to be declared void and null Which as themselves interpret the meaning pag. 81 and 82. importeth that they should be declared not only unjust Sentences upon the matter but no real Sentences as proceeding from those who had no Authority And if this be an equal mean of Union without imposing upon our judgments to condemn that Authority let indifferent men judge 8. Albeit it was offered to them as to the Acts concerning the Publick Resolutions that they shall be rendered of none effect as to Censure and that they shall never be alleaged against them as the definitive judgment of this Kirk to any effect And albeit it was offered as to the constitution of the two late Assemblies That though we for a salvo of our judgement asserted that no unwarrantable prelimitations were put upon the election of Commissioners to these Assemblies no unwarrantable prelimitations should be put upon future Elections but that these matters should be carried-on as in former Assemblies proceeding our differences Yet this doth not satisfie them pag 82 83 84 85. They count it insufficient that there be a cessation from executing Acts relating to Censure till they be made void and null by the next General Assembly Answ And yet we know no Judicatories far less privat Ministers who have power to repeal their Acts but themselves They count it a mock-remedy that the Question concerning the Publick Resolutions be remitted to the Determination of a Generall Assembly Answ And yet they are the only competent Judges in that matter But they alleage it is a mock-remedy because by the Acts they are secluded from being members Answ And yet it is expresly provided in the Overtures for Union at our Conference That none of the particulars of our late differences shall be alleaged on either part against the sitting of persons as Commissioners in ensuing General Assemblies They alleage further that it is a mock-remedy because we will be the plurality in an Assembly Answ And we desire a remedy for this unless they will have us renounce our judgment or cast the constitution of the Church as corrupt and gather a new one out of the rubbish And yet it is offered and assured in the Conference that upon an Union we shall in our judicial actings abstract from these by-gone differences They think it strange we should judge it a quitting of our judgement to condescend that the Publick Resolutions should not be looked-on as the publick definitive judgment of this Kirk And that seing we agree to repeal Acts
concerning Censures without quitting our own judgment we may as well repeal these Acts that declare these Resolutions to be the definitive judgment of the Kirk without altering our judgment concerning the things themselves Answ But as we know no such Acts declaratory that the Resolutions are the definitive judgment of this Kirk save only the Act of Assemblie approving them as sound and orthodox So there is no such need of piercing judgments to take up a difference betwixt what we concede and what we cannot yeeld For an ordinary capacity will discern that particular Conclusions concerning Censures may well be repealed and declared of none effect as to execution without encroaching upon mens judgments concerning the lawfulnesse thereof or of the Authority establishing the same And yet a dogmatick Conclusion determined in an Assembly cannot be declared not to be the definitive judgement of a Church in her representative Judicatory unlesse men will either lie against their knowledge and say it was not determined there or against their light and say it was not a lawfull Authority or Representative that did determine it There is but too much Sophistry in asserting we may take off the Synodicall eye without quitting or altering our judgements concerning the things themselves For who Questions but men may be of such an opinion had the matter never been determined or should the contrary be determined but they know this was never urged as the reason or our refusall of that desire but only that we could not condemn the Authority that determined in these matters And however they are pleased to twit us again with our holding these things to be extrinsecall to our Doctrine c. Yet we hope were they of never so small moment they will not have us lie or condemn our own judgements in them And as to their apprehensions concerning our designs which we know not why they repeat so often As we do not readily expect that this or any Reformed Church will be put to the resolution of any such case So we nothing doubt that where-ever there is occasion their judgement will be condemned by all but themselves and we are sure themselves will not allow of it in all cases 9. They make a great noise of the insufficiency of our Overtures concerning purging pag. 86 87 88. though we have better cause to complain that this being no cause of the Rent should therefore not keep up the quarrell Asserting 1. That for all our good words yet we have purged few these seven years bygone Answ But not to insist on what is said before how few of their own judgement they have either censured or so much as put to a triall notwithstanding clamours and flagrant scandals upon diverse of them and how much their division and irregularities obstruct that work in our hands we thought the Question had been not how few or how many we had removed but how diligent or negligent we had been since we must not put out men whether we find cause or not We say it as before the Lord that for any thing we know if there hath been any excesse in this matter it hath rather been in laying aside men upon small causes than in sparing Delinquents 2. They assert that in one Synod more have been brought-in who were formerly censured than have been put out by us all beside these who having been formerly twice deposed are connived at to Preach and Administer the Ordinances Answ It seems they have been unwilling their Pamphlet should want bulk and therefore when they have told us this already where we have considered it they must now tell us it over again yea we look for it the third time in a new dresse where we shall take a new look of it In the mean time if these proceedings of that one Synod which is the sum of all they can say though they will not be so ingenuous but leave the matter so as if possibly the like were done in every Synod have been according to Order and they are ready to give an account to their Judge competent what further can be said of them but that they have done what was the constant practice of this Chutch since the late Reformation And as to these they say are connived at we hope it cannot be charged on us as guilt that deposed men having the countenance of the Civil power do intrude upon Congregations against our heart 3. They assert we are become so backward and slow in this businesse that in the Processes of some we exercise our wits to raise notionall debates to hinder their purging out Ans As to this charge we are content to take their own course of committing the matter to God who knoweth who they are that are faulty in this matter of employing their wits for such ends and who do bend their wits to cast iniquity upon some men while they are no lesse industrious to obstruct the triall of others As we dare say that we are not conscious to our selves of any such sinistrous courses taken by us to obstruct the triall of persons brought upon the Stage So we can truly affirm and they cannot deny it that they have very much exercised their wits in such notionall debates when some of their judgement were brought to triall We are content our whole procedour in these particulars they reflect upon were laid open to the world that they might see what our carriage was in admitting of Witnesses and judging of their depositions And we dare yet again confidently assert that it is a malicious calumnie that any of these are kept in against whom any grosse scandals under which they say some lye are proven or that we have neglected to try scandals under which they lye were it even to continue them under Processe for severall years and to examine so many scores of Witnesses And for the issue of any Processes we know of in suspending of some and removing of others from their present station we know nothing done but what these of their judgment joyning with us did approve of 10. Whereas from the experience we had of their endless contentions in taking waves to prosecute some Ministers which when the case came to befall some of their judgment they said it was out of the way of judiciall Processes it was offered that they should agree upon the strictest rules of purging could be desired in justice provided they be binding to all and to which all will submit This they reject pag. 88 89 90. 1. Because we do not adhere to nor practise rules already agreed upon and say they why then should new rules be agreed upon This which is as easily denied as asserted they offer to make-out partly in that Synodical Visitations formerly agreed upon are now out of use save in very few Synods partly that now we dissent from the Kirk-judicatories their trying of Ministers by way of Inquisition and without a Libell yea and an Accuser too and partly that many of us
do now so extenuate the faults of drunkenness swearing c. as not to censure men for them with Suspension and Deposition as formerly unless the habits or many continued reiterated Acts of these things can be proven Answ All these quarrellings might easily be ended by reviving and renewing whatsoever of these hath been formerly agreed on and put it to trial if either Judicatories or many of our judgment whatever be the thoughts of some particular person which yet they have not made-out will not be content to engage to observe them on the tearms offered For present we answer 1. That Visitations have been kept not only by Presbyteries as is the usuall practice but by some of our Synods they deny not and we are ready to renew and continue them as either matters come to Synods by Reference or Appeals or Presbyteries are found negligent which yet must not be holden as proven because these Witnesses say so 2. Albeit we think it a very hard case for Ministers or others to have Libels and Informations given in against them under-boord possibly by them who sit as their Judges and that any should give-in a Libell openly against them and yet incur no Censure if he succumb in his Probation or that any and particularly a Minister should be suddenly put upon the Stage as a Delinquent where there is no probability of making-out any thing and he is sure to be a loser thereby Yet they know that the way of triall which they are pleased to call Inquisition practised in this Church is still in force and practice and that Presbyteries beside their private trials one of another before the meeting of the Synod twice every year do usually once a year visit Congregations where the Eldership are put in mind of their Oath to declare if they know any thing against their Minister and the Congregation are likewise called to for the same effect where if any thing be informed it is put to triall and probation And in case there be any fama clamosa of a scandall extraordinary Visitations are kept by Presbyteries or Synods and enquiry made into that matter And what other Inquisition they would have we know not except it be the Spanish Inquisition or super inquirendis 3. As to the matter of drunkennesse and swearing and what else they are pleased to comprehend under that c. we trust never to be left to our selves to approve or connive at such ills especially in Ministers We hope through the mercy of God we have a witnesse in heaven of our detestation of and sincerity of zeal against such abominations And we wish the Lord may lay it indeed to the Conscience but not to the charge of these Witnesses that they suggest such foul aspersions to defame us Nor shall we dip into an enquiry what hath been the practâ—ce of this Church in censuring these faults in all the kinds and degrees thereof and considered in all their circumstances which will not be found we are sure to amount to what they say nor yet shall we need to debate upon the particular opinions of any concerning the Censure of one rash oath or rather a minced oath as it is commonly termed which is the thing they make so much noise of or some degree of excesse in a man not known to be given to such evils and that Admonition is a Church-censure to be sisted at in some faults and in some cases Only for the Judicatories part we can instruct where some of these faults have been censured by us with Suspension where there were not many continued reiterated Acts proven 2. They except against this Overture upon this account that these rules must be applied by us who are the plurality from whom they expect no purging To this we have already spoken as also to that of our being the plurality Only this puts us in mind that a new Question is often hinted to us whether the Church of Scotland be furnished with Judicatories worthy to be entrusted with the managing of Christs affairs Wherein we wish they would give 〈◊〉 some more convincing light that we may all quit it and put them in who are the honest men if we take their own testimony 11. They professe they cannot accord to these Overtures because it is not provided that the plurality shall be laid aside in Congregations in the matter of calling of Ministers pag. 90. Which is in effect to lay by the body of the People as incapable of Church-priviledges when yet they are admitted to Church-ordinances and put them in the hands of some few And is not this a fine way to draw in to Congregations of an Independent Constitution Though we know Independents themselves will not deny the liberty of giving a Call to them who are their Church-members and partake of the Ordinances with them For our part we offered and do offer to observe the Acts of this Church in that matter and particularly the Act of the Assembly 1649. and are content to have a speciall respect to the most Judicious and Godly in that matter though not to prejudge others of their priviledge 12. They make it another obstruction to Union that there is no remedy provided for putting out of those Ministers Expectants and School-masters who being deposed have intruded themselves or are reponed again since our Differences pag. 90 91. Answ And yet were all they say of them true which hath been spoken to before they are not so many as to cause men keep up a Rent because of them And withall it was offered in the Conference for Union that since a Generall Assembly did not meet an account should be given of these matters by those who had acted therein to Correspondents of neighbouring Synods or Presbyteries respectivè who if they find any thing done amiss by these Synods and Presbyteries they shall labour with them to rectifie the same As also that we shall do our endeavours that Intruders be censured and removed 13. They complain also that nothing is offered about the way of calling a General Assembly the electing of Commissioners thereto and handling of matters therein pag. 91. Answ And are not here Prelimitations enow sought to be upon a future General Assembly seing they are not content that we promised to follow the ordinary Rules in these matters observed before our Differences and are content it be so called by a meeting of Correspondents as may not involve them in the approbation of the two last Assemblies The truth is these things do justly stumble us that they have raised such a confusion about alleaged Prelimitations in the election of Members of the two late Assemblies which in effect were not and yet will not hear of another Assembly if God grant the opportunity without both Prelimitations and Preingagements as to the way of Elections and handling of matters in it 14. They are pleased to alleage further pag. 91. That it is an impediment to Union that no mutual evidence and
assurance is given in matters concerning our Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government and the enemies of Truth and Godlinesse and the work of Reformation for adhering to these Articles of our Covenants our Engagement and Acts of uncontroverted Assemblies relating thereunto in the literall and genuine sense and meaning thereof as they desired in the Conference Answ But if by what they foist-in here beside what was propounded in that Conference as they set it down pag. 40. they mean we should engage to condemn the Publick Resolutions as Contrary to our Covenants Engagements or Acts of Assemblies we think they will not soon obtain that But as to the matter of our adherence to the Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government of this Kirk to which we are tied by Covenants and Engagements and was the thing required in the Conference Such satisfaction hath been offered therein in the Conference according to their explication of their own desire as we wonder with what confidence they call it as they do pag. 40. a shy answer Or how they can expect that the world who knoweth them and us will believe that they are the men adhering to these things and the principles of this Kirk concerning them while we are giving cause of jealousie that we do not or will not stand firm 15. They would make the world believe we impose upon their judgments in the matter of their Protestations pag. 91 92 93. When yet we neither bid them renounce them nor acknowledge the lawfulness of the Assemblies against which they were Only we desired they should not in any Judicatory of this Kirk make use thereof to call in question and annul the Constitution and Authority of these Assemblies Withall declaring that this did not import their passing from them as standing Testimonies of their judgment nor hinder them to make use thereof as a legal defence if the Constitution and Acts of these Assemblies were urged against them Yea nor to make use of them in so far as they related to the Publick Resolutions if they think fit to offer their Reasons against them in an Assembly though we judge they would succumb in that cause Is not this far from imposing on their judgments in this matter To make this Assertion out beside their constant clamour against Subordination which is to be considered in due time they offer 1. That this were a passing from these Protestations as a remedy against the corrupt constitution of these two Assemblies Answ And do they not by our concession stand as a testimony of their judgment against them And what other remedy would they have unless to draw us to condemn these Assemblies 2. That it should make way for the future Constitution and Authority of these two Assemblies Ans If they mean the Constitution of future Assemblies as these were to this whatever our own judgments be there is a sufficient remedy provided in our Offers concerning the future Constitution of Assemblies above mentioned If they mean the future approbation of the Constitution and Authority of these Assemblies in a subsequent Assembly It is also provided that they are free to make use of their Protestations as a legal defence if any such thing be urged against them 3. That it is unequall to submit these things to a Generall Assembly where we will be the plurality and are many wayes engaged for the Resolutions which are contrary to the Covenant and Acts and Declarations of uncontroverted Assemblies Answ That these Resolutions are contrary to the Covenant c. is oftener said than proven and though they say it hath been already declared yet we have not seen it proven nor we believe any body else But this is plain language that they will refer nothing to a Church-judicatory either where we are the plurality or are engaged for the Resolutions and is not this an imposing on our judgments ere there be an Union And is it not fine language for a party because their Mother-church is not of their judgment in what she believeth and is able to prove to be an errour therefore they will submit nothing to her Determination When Prelats excepted this against the General Assembly 1638. they had their Answer and we believe they would not bear this of us were they the plurality Nor did it rellish from the Remonstrants at the Synod of Dort Nay upon this account it is impossible for any Church ever to compose a difference unless they will cede to every party that pleaseth to contradict them And yet we must adde that all this is an unjust clamour as to the matter of Union seing as hath been often told all rational satisfaction and security is offered that they shall not be troubled with those bygone Questions 16. They shut-up their thoughts in these things with a sad reflection pag. 93 94. That it smelleth rankly of a carnall politick spirit to half and divide the things of God for making peace among men though we do not come up to our own professions in that matter of offering equal conditions Answ This we do very easily understand by what they give out of our condescensions among their followers That we are men who do not adhere to these things out of conscience otherwise we would not concede so much We leave so rigid a frame of spirit before Him who knoweth what we are put to suffer in desiring to heal the breaches of a sinking Church And as none but men of Donatus's temper will judge it an halfing of the things of God to lay aside debates concerning things removed out of our way and to forbear the execution of some Acts of Discipline if thereby we may bind-up the breaches of a bleeding Church So this giveth us a compendious account of all this debate about Union viz. That they will neither halve nor abate an ace of these things they hold for peaces sake And indeed upon a serious review of all their Overtures however to allure us to quit the way of administring the affairs of Christ by His own Courts they will allow us an equal number in their extrajudicial Committees whereas now we are granted to be the plurality and however they have of late not acted in the capacity of a Commission 1650. upon the reasons formerly mentioned though we have no assurance how soon they may usurp it again if they find it may serve their turn Yet it will be found they never recede a jot not only from their judgments but even from any of their actings in reference to the Resolutions and their Protestations And so we leave the case of this poor Church in His hands who knoweth how to prove a Physician to her Having now gone through these toilsome passages which cannot but be unpleasant to judicious Readers as it hath been indeed to us to dwell so much on stories and bitter reflections We proceed in the last place to take a view of their judgement in a very materiall Question concerning Subordination to Judicatories and