Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	authority_n	church_n	person_n	1,479	5	5.0691	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A29530	An answer to a book, entituled, Reason and authority, or, The motives of a late Protestant's reconciliation to the Catholick Church together with a brief account of Augustine the monk, and conversion of the English : in a letter to a friend.	Bainbrigg, Thomas, 1636-1703.	1687 (1687)	Wing B473; ESTC R12971	67,547	99

this could be done and would not have us to pretend to derive Authority from the Church of Rome when she was in her purity and perfection Now this is wonderfully wise to inquire by what Authority we presume to obey God to amend our ways to throw off Errours to follow Truth Let him be assured that we shall not pretend to have derived Authority from Rome neither in her corruption nor in her purity to doe this And our Authour in the next Paragraph owns that we need not in case the one be an Errour and the other be a Truth But he adds we are now seeking for that Authority which shall declare this Truth and set forth this Errour Now this is honestly said that he is seeking for that Authority I am sure he has made no discovery of it as yet He undertook pag. 21 22. to shew that and the Infallibility of the Church of Rome and has talkt out eight Pages and has not given us the least Argument for either of them now he says he is seeking for it and he may seek all his days at this rate for he seeks just as one did for the Hare in the top of the Steeple If there were any such Authority and Infallibility as he pretends it must be as apparent and as visible as the Church it self there would need no long seeking for it He must be blind or fool or mad that did not see it or know it I rather think that our Authour is seeking for Arguments to prove it and in this he is unhappy for he finds none But Pag. 28 29 30. he endeavours for one and that is to this purpose that there are Errours and Heresies in the World He tells us of Socinians of Luther and Calvin and Beza and I know not how many more of late days And from thence P. 30. p. 30. he talks in these words Fathers if these instances be not sufficient to require a Supreme Judge to determine the right Faith and silence the wrong then and then and I know not what but at last then pray excuse me if my reason and piety and the reverent notion which I have of a Just God and a mercifull Saviour totally force my Judgment and Conscience to dissent from you in this particular Now this is no Argument that there is such an Authority in the Church either Eastern or Western Roman or Graecian but a wheedling Discourse to persuade weak Persons that there may be such an one because in our Authour's Opinion it would be fit or requisite or proper for God Almighty in this method to direct the interests of his Church And to bring People on to this belief here is an audacious and presumptuous intimation that God would neither be wise nor good in case he did it not Here we beg our Authour's pardon we will believe God to be wise and good and mercifull whether he sets up such an Authority or no He knows what is fit and requisite and proper much better than such pert confident men He permits sins great and most enormous in the World though he could as easily give a stop to them as to Errours and Heresies There are Errours amongst Protestants and there are Errours amongst Romanists and if the Temporal Authority did not doe more than the Spiritual they themselves would complain of many more than now they do There are Errours and Heresies of late days and there were so from the first beginnings of Christianity in all times and places St. Paul tells of some in his days and Ignatius of others and Irenaeus of others and those most gross and vile and filthy Now if God had made provision of the pretended Authority and Infallibility to give stop to them it were most improbable if not impossible that ever these should have been Their existence therefore is plain argument and demonstration that there are no such powerfull means set up and appoionted by God to prevent hinder stop or silence them He has done enough against them as he has done against all sins it is presumption not to acquiesce in his Wisedom or to challenge that he must doe that which we cannot prove that he has done But our Authour leaves this and says he must proceed P. 30. p. 30. and that he does yet not to evidence the Authority and Infallibility of the Roman Church by better Arguments but to plead the interest of it in general from the performances of Augustine the Monk This is an Argument that pleases him he had been nibling at it three times before p. 18. p. 21. p. 27. There he intimates that this Augustine first taught the English Nation Christianity and that he taught them those very Doctrines as Christian Truths which we at this day oppose He says p. 21. That all the Controverted Points particularly and by name were declared by some of your selves to have been brought into England by Augustine the Monk above a thousand years since I suppose he means that his Friend the famous Napper or some of his Apocalyptical Acquaintance had declared this But after all he comes to treat more closely upon this Argument pag. 30 31 32. I shall consider what he says and then give a full accompt of the whole matter But before I begin I must complain for it is a grief that I have an Adversary so weak and yet so consident For those two learned Men their Mr. Cressey and our Reverend Dean of St. Paul's have accurately considered and weighed all the particulars of this Dispute and made the best advantages of it But the man knows nothing of their Writings Pope Gregory he names and Bede he names but gives us not any ground to think that ever he has read over Bede's History or consulted Pope Gregory's Epistles and both these ought to have been well studied by a Writer upon this Subject if he had due regard for Truth or his own Credit 1. First he says If you tell me a Story of the Abbat of Bangor I answer that the particular ground of it is evidently false and forged Now Bede is the man that tells us a Story of the Abbat of Bangor and the numbers of Monks in that Abbey Bede l. 2. c. 2. And the Story as it lies in Bede gives all the advantage to Protestants that they can wish lib. 2. cap. 2. And if there be something added to that Story from an Ancient Record found and published by Sir Henry Spelman the skill and integrity of that excellent Person would persuade an indifferent man not presently to damn it for a forgery for he was not likely either to contrive one or to be cheated with one But be this what it will the Story that Bede gives is sufficient for our uses and that I hope he will not say is false or forged 2. P. 30. He says that the Britains received the Christian Faith in the Apostles days but being persecuted by Romans Picts and Saxons Religion fled to the Mountains

he pleased he might have given us the Bread without the Cup or the Cup without the Bread and if he had pleased he might have omitted both But since he has given the same order for both Christians are under the same obligation and have the same right to both as to one and that all Christians as well Laity as Priests for there is but one order given and a Council may as well debar the Priests from the Cup as the Laity and they may as well null the whole Sacrament as halve it But since our Authour has mentioned the Council of Constance I will presume to recommend unto him a late ingenious and discreet Discourse published by a Person of quality of the Authority of Councils and Rule of Faith He may there find some remarks concerning this Council of Constance that may doe him more good than all the Councils that ever he read 6. The next thing our Authour mentions is Purgatory P. 21. and the Council of Florence establishing the truth of the Doctrine concerning it Now as to this enough has been written already I 'll be kind to our Authour and for his sake say nothing against it And that because I know not what profit or advantage to himself a New Convert may expect from it For it is the trade of Indulgences and Masses that keeps up the talk of it as it is a point of speculation Rome is no more concerned to defend it than we The Doctrine derives from Heathens especially the Poets and it may give fine entertain to Wits and idle Persons He that has nothing to doe may transcribe half a score Legends which may possibly make our Authour blush and be wiser than to alledge Councils in defence of Purgatory 7. P. 21. The last Point which our Authour gives us is the Doctrine of Transubstantiation which he says was confirmed in the great Council of Lateran in which near thirteen hundred Fathers assisted and in seven or eight other Councils before that of Trent and all the controverted Points particularly and by name declared by some of your selves to have been brought into England by Augustine the Monk above a thousand years since Here our Authour is unhappy in every thing he says First He calls the Lateran Council Great He means General for that is the name which must guide its Authority and make it considerable and so some have called it but with the meanest appearance of reason that ever was offered For the Saracens then gave too much business to the Eastern Bishops for them to leave their Houses and their Flocks to come to Rome to make Speeches in Councils there And then secondly He says there were near thirteen hundred Fathers assisting in this Council now if he had looked upon Binnius or Labbè he would have found not above four hundred Bishops there and they are the onely Persons that were ever reckoned for Fathers in a Council Thirdly To the end of this he tacks a Story of Augustine the Monk as if he thought or would perswade others that he brought into England the Doctrine of Transubstantiation and the Decree of the Lateran Council for it Now Transubstantiation name and thing can derive no higher than this Lateran Council and this Council was not in being for more than six hundred years after the Death of Augustine Bede tells us Lib. 2. cap. 5. that he was dead before the year 613. and this Council met not till the year 1215. Thus miserably unhappy is our Authour in his impertinent Sallies But he must hear more of Augustine hereafter At present our Authour's business is to gain credit and belief to the Doctrine of Transubstantiation from the Authority of the fourth Lateran Council under Innocent the Third Now to this I answer First That no Lateran Council can be presumed to have any considerable Authority in it especially not that which is challenged in the behalf of Great or General Councils which is a submission of Judgment and an intire resignation of Faith to the Decrees of it Secondly This particular fourth Lateran Council is liable to more Objections than all the rest and some of them such as are so sharp and pungent to the sense of an English-man that he can scarce hear them without disgust and hatred and therefore it may be presumed that whatever credit and authority that Council can give to Transubstantiation abroad yet it can give little or none to it in England I. No Lateran Council can be presumed to have any considerable Authority in it and that for these reasons 1. Because these Lateran Councils come too near to the indoctum seculum that is to an Age wherein good Learning was hushed asleep and Ignorance and Darkness had overspread the World This Romanists Bellarm. in Chronologia in An. 970. as well as Protestants complain of and tell us that neither Learned Man nor Writer was known to have lived in it Now before Learning was got up and dressed Ambition and Interest had done a great deal of business in the World and when it is known that they have been acting all Men usually are so suspicious as not to be over ready to give any great credit 2. Those Lateran Councils came too thick for we have five of them in less than one hundred years Since that under Paschal the Second generally omitted is certainly a Lateran Council as Baluzius in the Edition of Petrus de Marca has evidently shown Tom. 2. pag. 431. To these might be added at least three more and all alike Oecumenical for all the distinction that Labbè makes without any reason is but to salve the credit of the former Collectours 3. The matter of some of them was of no great concern this may be presumed because the best Copies of their Acts and Canons lay by the walls so long For they were not well understood till the curiosity and industry of Baluzius and some others lately brought them to light Petrus de Marca de concordia Sacerdotii imperii Tom. 2. p. 431 435 437. this appears by Baluzius in the Book of Petrus de Marca and by comparing of Binnius his Councils with those of Labbè 4. Most of them were convened for ill purposes to advance the Papal Power and to lessen the rights of Princes To this end convened or at least aimed the Councils under Paschal II. Callistus II. Alexander III. and that under Innocent III. But the last is our business where the Second thing is to be spoken to I say therefore II. This Lateran Council under Innocent III. is liable to so many objections that no man especially an Englishman can have any great regard for the Doctrine of Transubstantiation upon the Authority of it This will appear if we consider 1. That the 70 Acts or Canons of this Council were never heard of for full three hundred years after the Council and they were first brought to light by Cochlaeus Luther's Adversary who about 20 years

and will give full satisfaction in that Point if he were but capable of receiving it And I presume I have given him more than he can answer in the Reflexions upon the Lateran Council I. The Authority and Infallibility of the Roman Catholick Church P. 21. This he undertakes to consider how far it may bear and appear reasonable to an impartial Reader These words are not worth the notice but that they tempt out a little suspicion that they are here set for a reserve in case of opposition for if it be said as most truly it may that there is not one plain proof either of the supreme Authority or Infallibility of the Roman Church in all this Discourse Our Authour may reply that he never undertook to give it All that he engaged for was appearances P. 23. and that he has performed by using the words oft tumbling and tossing them as Hay-makers do their mown Grass one while Authority is uppermost and soon after Infallibility Authority must lead in Infallibility and Infallibility must vindicate Authority but where either of these is to be found the Man neither proves nor knows and plainly says that he is not concerned whether there be any such thing as Infallibility or no p. 24. he says Were there no Infallibility as I believe there is I would still submit my Reason and regulate my Conscience P. 24. according to the Decrees of the supreme lawfull Ecclesiastical Authority This is my belief pray blame me not All this is nothing else but appearances for neither is the Church of England nor the Church of Rome concerned in his belief or his fancy or his opinion for these may be wise or may be foolish may be well or may be ill grounded But yet it is admirable to see what great command he has over his Reason and his Conscience that he can make them turn which way he pleases and if he does but suppose a Supreme lawfull Authority to be in Ebion or Cerinthus Nailor or Muggleton or the Church of Rome He can be a Convert to any of them to day to this and to morrow to the quite contrary and that with as much reason and as good conscience to the one as to the other For which way soever he turns he may still say this is my belief pray blame me not His last Conversion was to the Church of Rome and he intimates that he changed upon this belief that there was a Supreme lawfull Ecclesiastical Authority to be found there but he has not the least reason to prove it though it must be confest that he has some appearances which I will impartially consider in their order 1. He gives us some Citations from Protestants Pag. 22 23. from Luther one and from Melancthon another whom he calls the Phoenix of Learning a fine word I wonder from whence he borrowed it another from Somaisius or Salmasius Another he would give from Grotius but what it is he has forgot he thinks it is somewhere in his Annotations upon the New Testament And then to make weight he throws in the Names of Jacob Cartwright Huss and Beza P. 23. And from hence he argues in these words These eminent Protestants were men of great learning and they had searcht and understood Scripture and History and if my judgment concurs with theirs in this point as I profess it doth then have I found that lawfull Supreme Authority Now these are dangerous words from the mouth of a new Convert it is well for him that he is not now in Spain for if he should make such a declaration there That his judgment concurs with the judgment of Luther Melancthon Huss and Beza in the Point of the Pope's Supremacy or the Supremacy of the Church of Rome he might perhaps be in danger of the Inquisition All the World knows the judgment of those men in this point and if he were before the Fathers of the Inquisition they would not be put off with a small Citation found they know not where and perhaps inserted by they know not whom He had done much better to have mistrusted his Copy than to depend upon such an Allegation Sure I am that if he made any use of those mens judgments or laid any great stress upon the words which he cites under their Names in his search or presumed discovery of a Supreme Authority of the Church of Rome he used both his Reason and his Conscience very hardly It is certain that Luther did speak variously of the Pope's Power sometimes higher and sometimes lower as appears to any one that reads either his Works or Cassander's Citations from him And as to Melancthon the Phoenix of Learning I am not concerned to search what he wrote to the Cardinal Belay And it may be I am civil in doing it He was a Wit that once charged it as an incivility upon his Acquaintance that he should take so much pains to prove him a Lyar. It is certain that Melancthon in his Loci Communes where he treats professedly upon this Subject declares fully and roundly against all this that is cited from him And therefore I presume that his judgment does not concur with Melancthon's for if it does he is no new Convert for he has found nothing that can call for a submission of Reason and Conscience nothing like to that Authority and Infallibility of the Roman Catholick Church which a new Convert is bound to defend But because our Authour in desence of the Authority and Infallibility of the Roman Church has given such Citations from Protestants I 'll indeavour to requite him by one from a very good Roman Catholick and that is Cassander He in his Book de Officio pii hominis speaks to this purpose That there are some who because they see yet remaining amongst them not a few things that have descended down from Antiquity or the first Christians will keep up the present state of the Church just as it is though it be corrupt and foully stained by abuses that have crept in by little and little Nor will they suffer any thing to be alter'd though it may be done agreeable enough to the Decrees or Canons of the Ancients Pontificem verò Romanum quem Papam dicimus tant um non Deum faciunt ejusque Autoritatem non modò supra totam Ecclesiam sed supra ipsam Scripturam Divinam efferunt sententiam ejus Divinis Oraculis parem imo infallibilem fidei regulam constituunt hos non video cur minus Pseudocatholicos Papistas appellare possis The Roman Bishop whom we call Pope they make little less than God They set up his Authority not onely over the whole Church but over the holy Scripture it self and make his determination equal to the Divine Oracles and no less than an infallible rule of faith I see no cause but that you may give to these the name of false Catholicks and Papists Thus said that good man concerning the