Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	authority_n	church_n	person_n	1,479	5	5.0691	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28837	A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1687 (1687)	Wing B3780; ESTC R23256	107,935	138

Reformation have not been able to change the necessary Condition of Humani●● which for the hindring Divisions and quieting Mens Min●● requires a final Decision independent of all new Examination either General or Particular The Christian Church is not exempt from this Law and the more regular she is the more her Constitution depend● on an entire Submission of Mind the more need she has of such an Authority Wherefore from the very beginning of Christianity GOD himself has put into the Hearts of all true Christians That they must no longer search nor examin after the Church has determin'd This inviolable Tradition has wrought its Effect in our Reformed maugre their Principles Nor do I wonder at it Re● de 〈◊〉 S. 29. St. Basil very wisely and very truly said That Tradition made men speak more than they would and inspir'd into them things contrary to their Sentiments And if our Reformed will not ow to Tradition this last and final Resolution and this Submission so solemnly sworn 't is then Necessity and Experience that has forc't them to it 't is because there must an End be put to the Doubts and Examinations of private persons by an absolute Authority if they will have Peace and uphold Humility 't is that if they neither have nor exercise this Authority they must make a shew of having and exercising it and at least give the Idea of it 't is in a word because one may indeed discourse and answer Arguments by Words but the natural Ignorance Infirmity and Pride of Mans Mind requires other Remedies The Second REFLEXION On one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Judgment of the Church I Pretended to shew is the Conference That by denying the Churches infallible Authority one falls into these two Inconveniences and I said not into one of the two but inevitably into both of them The first is That every particular person how ignorant soever he may be is oblig'd to believe That he may understand GODs Word better than the most universal Synods and all the rest of the Church together The second That there is a time when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in condition to make an Act of Faith upon the Holy Scripture but that whether he will or no he shall find himself oblig'd to doubt whether it be inspir'd by GOD. I have not seen any of the Pretended Reformed in whom these two Propositions have not caus'd an horror and who has not told me he should be so far from ever believing them himself that he should detest those which did Let us see then how it continues fixt by the Conference that they are Consequences of the Pretended Reformeds Doctrin and such manifest Consequences that they are own'd by the Ministers And indeed not to depart from Mr. Claude's Relation he himself asserts in it That after all Ecclesiastical Assemblies every particular Person ought to 〈◊〉 whether they have well understood GODs Word or no When he had spoken of human Interests which often is he said 〈◊〉 the Truth in the most authentical and most universal Assemblies of the Church For to destroy this Answer and shew that 't was in the bottom nothing but a Civil I 〈◊〉 him whether all passing in Order and without the appearance of any human Interest in the Deliberation every private Person must not yet examin He acknowledg'd he must and 〈◊〉 it still in his own Relation maintaining That there is not any Absurdity nor any Pride in a private Persons 〈◊〉 that he may understand GODs Word better than all Ecclesiastical Assemblies what good Order soever is kept in them and of whatsoever Persons they 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 This Proposition and Doctrin will appear 〈◊〉 to every docible Spirit But to the end the thing may be 〈…〉 let us make Application of this Doctrin in a particular Example The Calvinistical Church since these 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 years from her first beginning to be establisht has not held any Assembly more 〈…〉 more 〈◊〉 than the Syno● of D●rt Besides all the Churches of the 〈…〉 all the rest of the same Belief that of England that of 〈◊〉 those of the 〈◊〉 those of 〈◊〉 those of Switzerland that of 〈◊〉 and the ●est of the German Language were there by their Deputies and receiv'd it and to the end nothing might be wanting to it if the 〈…〉 Churches of this Realm were hindred from 〈…〉 at it they adopted all its Doctrin in the National Synod of 〈◊〉 1631. where all the Articles of 〈…〉 and sworn to by the whole Synod and afterwards by all-the Provinces and all the particular Churches Since that time none of the Pretended Reformed 〈◊〉 this Synod The 〈◊〉 alone who were there 〈…〉 blame is Doctrin and relate the Cabals and the Share Policy and the Interests of the House of 〈◊〉 had in it All also have yielded and if there be any thing that can be said 〈◊〉 have been receiv'd with an unanimous Confe●● by all the Churches of the Pretended Reformation 't is without doubt the 〈◊〉 of this Synod And nevertheless I will 〈…〉 Whether any private Person whatever of his Church may rely upon an Authority so great amongst them as this is without examining any farther if he be press'd to Answer positively Yea or No to so precise a Question and in a Fact so well circumstantiated he must say No and that in fine notwithstanding all this they were but men how able how illummated how holy soever they are imagin'd still subject to fail whose Sentiments if one should follow blindfold and without examining he would equal men to GOD. Thus according to the Maxims of the new Reformation every private Person even to the most ignorant women ought to believe that they can understand the holy Scripture better than an Assembly compos'd of whatever is greatest in that whole Church which he acknowledges to be the only one where GOD is purely serv'd and not only better than this Assembly but than all the rest of the Church and than all that he knows in the whole Universe This is what Mr. Claude has acknowledg'd to me This is in Substance what he still says in his own Relation and this is what every Minister whether he will or no shall own in a Conference in the presence of any one that shall desire it unless he obstinately resolves not to answer positively In which case he will be seen to shuffle and this Tergiversation will be stronger than an Acknowledgment since 't will not only shew that the Acknowledgment is inevitable but 't will also make appear that he is sensible of its pernicious Consequences And what I say of the Synod of Dort Mr. Claude and every other Minister will be forc'd to say of the Council of Nice of the Council of Constantinople of that of Ephesus of that of Chalcedon and the rest which they and we receive with common accord And when they shall say it

being of as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We have said he Synods which are Means to hinder so great Evils Means not infallible but nevertheless profitable as I have said For thô a Pastor that preaches is not infallible his Ministery ceases not to be profitable because he declares the Truth But a great Assembly compos'd of more persons and those of greater Learning will yet better make this Declaration Methinks Sir reply'd I That you refer all to Instruction but this is not precisely either the Intention or Institution of Synods for oftentimes one understanding private Person will give more Instruction than a whole Synod together What must be expected from a Synod is not so much Instruction as a Decision by Authority to which there is a necessity of yielding for this is what both the ignorant who doubt and the proud who contradict stand in need of An ignorant private person if you leave him to himself will confess to you that he knows not on what to resolve and far from abating Pride in a Synod you carry it to its highest Point since you oblige a private person to believe that he can understand the Scripture better than the Synod and all the rest of the Church and the Synod it self thô assembled from the whole Church being askt by him whose Faith it examins whether he is not oblig'd to examin after the Synod and whether it may not so fall out that he thô a private person may understand the Scripture better than all the Pastors assembled the Synod thô universal must according to your Doctrin declare That without doubt he may Presumption Sir cannot go higher And observe if you please that these Assemblies which you propose as profitable Means are no longer so when every one may believe that he has a better and the only one that can secure him to wit that of examining by himself and believing only his own Judgment This Sir is perfect Independency for the Independents neither refuse to hold Synods for their mutual Instruction nor to receive these Synods when they find that these Synods say well You know they have held some He acknowledg'd they had held one to frame their Confession of Faith I matter not reply'd I whether one or more they do not then absolutely reject them and they reject in them precisely no more than you do which is the obligation of submitting to them without examining And upon this to reduce my self in few words see what was my Argument The Independents are very willing to have Ecclesiastical Assemblies for Instruction all they will not have is the authoritative Decision which you will no more have than they you are then wholly conformable and you ought not to have condemn'd them You see not then Sir said Mr. Claude That we deny not but there is an Authority in Synods such an one as the Paternal Authority such an one as the Authority of Magistrates such an one as the Authority a Master has over his Scholar and a Pastor ovr his Flock all these Authorities have their use and are not to be rejected under pretence That the Fathers Magistrates and Masters may be deceiv'd 't is the same then with the Authority of the Church But Sir answer'd I the Independents deny not the Authority of Magistrates nor the Authority of Masters over their Scholars nor that of Pastors over their Flocks They have Pastors Sir for whom they require no less than you that there should be some Deference had and much more will they not deny but it ought to be had for a whole Synod If then you accuse them of denying the Authority of Synods you must add something to what they believe and there is nothing to be added but what we believe which is That we must submit to them without examining After this for a little time we did nothing on both sides but repeat the same things Which having caus'd Mr. Claude to observe I said to him In fine Sir we should dispute without end every one has nothing more to do but to examin in his Conscience and before GOD whether he thinks himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all Councels and all the rest of the Church and how such an Opinion can agree with the Docility and Humility of GODs Children I inculcated in few words what a Pride it was for one to believe he could understand GODs Word better than all the rest of the Church and how after this nothing hindred the being of as many Religions as there are Heads Mr. Claude here told me he wonder'd this Proposition should appear so strange to me That a private person might believe he might happen to understand the Holy Scripture better than the whole Church assembled That the Case had hapned and he could give me many Examples of it The first in the Councel of Ariminum where the Word Consubstantial was rejected and Arianism set up I interrupted him saying Whither do you carry us Sir From the Councel of Ariminum you will bring us to the false Councel of Ephesus to the Councel of Constance to that of Basil to that of Trent When shall we have done if we must here pass over all these Councels I declare to you that I will not engage my self in this Discussion since our Question may be determin'd by something more precise But because you have mention'd the Councel of Ariminum tell me Sir I beseech you whether the Fathers of that Councel continu'd long in this erroneous Decision I ought to have said equivocal and imperfect rather than erroneous I believe indeed Sir said he That they quickly return'd Say say Sir answer'd I that assoon as the Emperor Constantius declar'd Protector of the Arians and Persecutor of the Faithful had permitted them to retire these Bishops complain'd aloud of the Violence and Surprise that had been put upon ' em Oblige me not Sir to relate this Story which you know as well as I and acknowledge That 't is unjust to compare a Councel manifestly pack'd with Assemblies held canonically and according to Order Ha Sir reply'd Mr. Claude do not we say That the Councel of Trent was neither free nor canonical You say it Sir and we deny it and that is not the Question of this Dispute The present Question is to know whether you can avoid Independency and whether there be in your Doctrin any Remedy against this insupportable Presumption of a private person who must believe according to your Principles that he can understand the Scripture better than the best assembled and best held universal Councels and than all the rest of the Church together Let us leave then if you will the Council of Ariminum see here another indisputable Example 'T is the Judgment of the Synagogue when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and consequently declar'd that he was not the Messias promis'd by the Prophets Tell me Sir would not a private person who

should then have believ'd our Lord to be the true CHRIST have judg'd better than all the rest of the Synagogue together See then an indubitable Case in which one may without Presumption do what you think so presumptuous In effect proceeded he 't is no Presumption not to give to the Church what belongs only to GOD alone We cannot give him any thing greater than to believe him blind-fold as you would have us believe the Church But you know that St. Paul at least as much inspir'd as the Church forbears not to declare to the Corinthians That he will not have Dominion over their Faith 2. Cor. i. 23. The Church ought yet less to do it than he We must not then believe her simply on her Word we must examin after her and make use of our Reason as those of Beraea did who examin'd the Scriptures Acts xvii v. 11. to see whether the things were there as St. Paul had preacht them When Mr. Claude held his Peace Here said I are many things But we must first take in hand this indisputable Example you have propos'd to us Upon this I remonstrated to him That the Christian Church had great Priviledges above the Synagogue even considering the Synagogue in the time of its greatest Glory But not to mention this 't was a strange thing to compare the Synagogue falling at the very Moment when its Hardning and Reprobation was clearly markt by the Prophets with the Christian Church which was never to fall But in fine Sir reply'd he one might have then made to this private Person the same Argument you make to us To alledge the Prophets was to no purpose for 't was concerning the Application of these Prophecies to JESUS CHRIST that the Synagogue doubted Thus a private Person could no more believe in JESUS CHRIST without believing at the same time that he understood the Scripture better than all the Synagogue and this is the Argument you make to us There were but few People at the Conference and they were all Hugonots except the Mareschalless De Lorge I saw two of these Gentlemen look on one another at this place with Complacence I was toucht that a Reasoning so visibly ill should make such an Impression on these Spirits and I besought GOD to grant me the Grace that I might by something that should be clear destroy the odious Comparison which was made of his always well-beloved Church with the faithless Synagogue at that very Moment he had assign'd for her Divorce You say then Sir said I to Mr. Claude that the Argument I make may authorise the Error of those private Persons who condemn'd JESUS CHRIST on the Faith of the Synagogue and on the contrary condemn those of Presumption who believ'd JESUS CHRIST alone before the whole Synagogue Yes Sir said he the thing is so repeating his Discourse afresh Let us see then said I whether my Argument has this unhappy Consequence It consists Sir in saying That the Churches Authority being deny'd there is no longer any exterior Means which GOD can make use of to dissipate the Doubts of the Ignorant and inspire necessary Humility into the Faithful To the end such an Argument may be made concerning the time when JESUS CHRIST was condemn'd it must be said that there was not then any exterior Means any certain Authority to which one ought necessarily to submit Now Sir who can say this since JESUS CHRIST was upon the Earth that is the Truth it self which appear'd visibly in the midst of Men the Eternal Son of GOD to whom a Voice from on high bare Witness before all the People Matt. iii. v. 17. This is my well-beloved Son hear ye him who to confirm his Mission rais'd the Dead heal'd those that were born blind and wrought so many Miracles that the Jews themselves confess'd never any Man had done the like There was then Sir an exterior Means a visible Authority But 't was contested 'T is true but 't was infallible I do not pretend Sir that the Churches Authority should never be contested I hear you you Sir who contest it But I say it ought not to be so by Christians I say That she is Infallible I say That there never was any time when there was not on the Earth a visible and speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit Before JESUS CHRIST we had the Synagogue when the Synagogue was to fail JESUS CHRIST himself appear'd when JESUS CHRIST retir'd he left his Church to which he sent his Holy Spirit Bring again JESUS CHRIST teaching preaching working Miracles I have no longer need of the Church but also take from me the Church I must have JESUS CHRIST in Person speaking preaching deciding with Miracles and an infallible Authority But you have his Word Yes we have without doubt a Word Holy and Adorable but such an one as suffers it self to be explicated and manag'd how one will and makes no Reply to those that misunderstand it I say we must have an exterior Means of resolving Doubts and this Means must be certain And not to go over again the Reasons already alledg'd now there is nothing else requir'd but to answer your Objection concerning the Error of the Synagogue I aver you are so far from being able to say That there was not then a certain exterior Means or speaking Authority to which Men were oblig'd to submit their Judgments that you must avow there was one the highest and most infallible that ever was which is that of JESUS CHRIST and so that there was never any time when the Argument I use against the Protestants could less be made which is That they want an exterior infallible Means to determine Doubts about the Scriptures After I had said this I perceiv'd there was no Reply to be made me In effect There was not a Word said to me upon it thô I held my Peace to hear what Answer would be made I will not say that Mr. Claude stood silent 't is an Effect not much to be expected in Conferences of this nature He repeated something of what he had already said and insisted afresh on what the Apostle himself had declar'd That he had not Dominion over the Consciences I was glad that he return'd to this Passage which I had an intent of Explicating at first but was fain to go to what was most pressing which was the Example of the Synagogue This being done I only askt Mr. Claude whether the Apostles Meaning when he said to the Corinthians We have not Dominion over your Faith was that they must examin after him He saw well that it was not and confest it I concluded Nor does the Church Sir pretend to have Dominion over the Faith when she requires us to believe it in her Decisions because she gives not this Authority to her self no more than St. Paul did but to the Holy Ghost who inspires her You equal then said Mr. Claude to St. Paul Author of the