Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	authority_n	church_n	person_n	1,479	5	5.0691	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16643	A plaine confutation of a treatise of Brovvnisme, published by some of that faction, entituled: A description of the visible Church In the confutation wherof, is shewed, that the author hath neither described a true gouerment of the Church, nor yet proued, that outward discipline is the life of the Church. Whereunto is annexed an ansvvere vnto two other pamphlets, by the said factioners latelie dispersed, of certaine conferences had with some of them in prison. Wherein is made knowen the inconstancie of this sect, what the articles are which they still maintaine: as also a short confutation of them. There is also added a short ansvvere vnto such argumentes as they haue vsed to proue the Church of England not to be the Church of God.	Alison, Richard, controversialist.	1590 (1590)	STC 355; ESTC S100153	67,007	148

not supreame head of the church neither hath authoritie to make lawes ecclesiastical in the church they must acknowledge a dissent of iudgment amongst themselues or else confesse that there was a time when they were of another opinion but now they haue learned to be more wise yet the caueat that is giuen hath a secret meaning viz. a granting of the latter part of this article that her maiestie hath no authoritie to make anie lawes ecclesiasticall But this being so closely couered I minde not to see it I conceiue the best namely that as they yeelde more to her maiestie then of former times they haue done so will they in time grant her that right which is due vnto her roiall authoritie Of the ninth article they saie that the lavves ecclesiasticall vvherevvith our assemblies are guided are not deriued from the booke of God but culled out from that great Antichrists canons orders deuillish pollicies c. that they are the execrable wares of Antichrist statuts of Omry not to be receiued or obeied of anie that loue the Lord Iesus This article then is maintained by these men and not vniustly imputed to them But as touching this grieuous accusation we are here also to call to minde that the lawes of God are onely perfect the decrees and statutes of men though holy yet haue their wants In regard wherof I doe acknowledge a want of perfection but the deformitie of these laws doth seeme greater partly by the meanes of such as shoulde dispose them more vprightly and partly by reason of others who haue a malitious eie in beholding and an enuious tongue in reproching them Vnto the tenth article they answere that they neither looke for the reformation of Babel our false Church for so they tearme it nor take vpon them to intermeddle with the magistrates swoord but all that will bee saued must forsake the false church and by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue God aright in his true church c. Neither may they neglect the seruice of GOD nor the practise of any parte thereof c. Though the Prince shoulde inhibite c. So that they affirme that of their owne authority they are not only to separate themselues from vs but also to prctaise the discipline which they haue fansied though her maiestie shoulde inhibite the one or commaunde the other so that this article is not wrongfully fathered vpon them But before this article be granted vnto them as a true position they must not onelie conuince our church as out of the which there ought to be a departure but also they must proue that a priuate man may attempt reformation in the church contrarie to that which hath bene spoken To the eleuenth article they saie first that the presbyterie may not excommunicate any person by their sole power seeing Christ hath giuen this power to the whole church This is made more plaine in an other place where one of them saith that the least member of the church that is a communicant hath as much interest in all the censures of the church as the pastor Secondly they affirme that the prince if he will be a member of the church must be subiect to the censure in the church The which two positions being considered it shall be needlesse to open what these men would haue but of the authoritie of a priuat man hath ben spoken sufficiently heretofore To the twelfth they answer roundly in this sort as for your religion church sacramentes c. vve haue before shevved the forgerie of them vnto the vvhich former articles I referre the reader Euen so do I for I purpose not palinodiam can●re onely I say that amongst these twelue articles there is not one wherewith they are abused or vniustly charged and therefore are their exclamations before mentioned vaine There are in the ende of the foresaid pamphlet other twelue articles not vnlike to the former which they tearme slanderous articles also forged against them as if they did not hold them which are these 1 THey hold that the Lords praier or anie set praier is blasphemie and they neuer vse anie praier for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the church of England 2 That all set praiers or stinted praies or read seruice are but meere babling in Gods sight and plaine Idolatrie 3 They teach there is no head or supreame gouernor of the church of Christ and that the Queene hath none authoritie in the church to make lavves ecclesiasticall 4 They teach that a laie man may beget faith and that vve haue no need of publike administration 5 They condemne all comming to Church al preaching all institution of Sacraments and saie that all the ministers vvere sent by God in his anger to deceiue the people 6 They affirme that the people must reforme the church and not tarie for the magistrate and that the Primitiue church sued not to courts and parliaments nor vvaited vpon princes pleasures but vve make Christ to attend vppō princes to be subiect to their lavvs gouernment 7 That the booke of common praier is a pregnant Idol full of abhominations a peece of svvines flesh and abhomination to the Lord. 8 They saie it is a greater sinne to go to the church to publik praiers then for a mā to lie vvith his fathers vvife 9 Those that vvil not refrain from our churches preaching or seruice they giue vnto the deuil excōmunicat 10 They hold it not lavvfull to baptise children among vs they neuer haue anie sacrament among them 11 They refuse to take an oath to be examined 12 They vvill not marrie amongst vs in our churches but resort to the Fleet to other places to bee married by one Greenwood and Barrow All which whether these men are vniustly blamed with them or do hold them as firme as they do the former Articles I leaue vnto the consideration of all men Their iudgemēt cōcerning the two first articles hath bene set downe alredie for they do little differ from those two positions set downe in the former place Likewise concerning the third article we haue had their minde in the eight article so that it shall be needlesse either to shew again that those are by their desert imputed vnto them or that in maintaining thē their warrants be of smal force And the fourth article is so far from being an vngodly calumniation against thē y t they hold it not only a possible thing for a priuate man to beget faith but also lawfull for him to preach the word interpret the scriptures in publike assemblies Wherin a question might be moued what is the differēce betwene him y t is Leitourgos a minister of Christ in their publike functiō euery priuate man in the congregation both hauing equall authoritie as well in preaching as in the censures of the church Also what these priuate men are to be esteemed in preaching whether ministers or no ministers vnto the people whom

the corruptiō of their harts Thirdly that our ministery is antichristian a matter handled pag. 125. the scurrilitie in calling them hirelings mercenary preachers c. deserueth no answer the names of parson vicar c. doth not make a difference in the ministery but in their maintenance Fourthly we are subiect to the popish courtes as high commission c. wherunto I answer that al these courts haue their authority from her maiesty though some of thē more directly then the other In consideration wherof to call the lest antichristian is arrogant but to ioine thē all in one sentence to disswade her maiesties subiects frō yeelding obedience vnto any of thē it will be found an act of no good subiect yet for mine owne parte I purpose not to giue iudgement in the matter I leaue it to such as are acquainted with the law onely I will propound the case which is this The high court of Parlement hath agreed that the queene her hignes successors kings queenes of this realme shall haue full power by letters pattents vnder the great seale to name and authorise when as often and for so long time as her highnes her heires or successors shall thinke meete such person or persons as she or they shal thinke meet to execute vnder her c. all manner iurisdictions priuileges and preheminences in any wise concerning any spirituall iurisdiction within England and Ireland c. 1. Eliz. 1. Now her maiestie by the authoritie aforesaid hath graunted her letters pattentes vnder the great seale for the two courts of high commission and delegates And by the said authority first from the Parlement and then from her maiestie these two courtes doe stande and not by any other right or authoritie whatsoeuer yet these two courts of high commission and of delegates are here tearmed popishe and antichristian courts and the people are condemned to be antichristian which yeelde obedience vnto them This therefore is the case Whether it toucheth her maiesty or not that libels railing vpon and calling her highnes authority which is warranted by her broad seale popish antichristian c. Brownist These assemblies are not ruled by the old and new testament but by the canons iniunctions and decrees of those antichristian and popish courts therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church is ruled by the old and new testament but the church of Englande is not c. Therefore c. If Christ hath in his last will set down a perfect gouernment for his church as they say he hath there is little vse of the olde Testament for direction of discipline vnder the Gospell But this Argument being in effect the same with the former needeth no other answere then it had Brownist These people stand not in for their Christian libertie but all of them remaine in bondage to these Aegyptian and Babylonishe yoakes yeelding obedience vnto these courts and their canons Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this All and euerie of the true Church stand in and for their christian libertie to practise whatsoeuer God hath commanded them c. But in the church of England they stande not for their christian libertie Therefore c. Ansvvere We haue seene pag. 49. 50. that the priuate man doth passe the bondes of his calling in presuming to deale with publike reformation Againe it was sayde pag. 45. that in the visible church it doth not alwaies fall out that euerie member hath that freedom which is requisite in the performance of their christian dueties of his calling The proposition therefore is false As for the assumption in differing nothing from the three former it doth commend the greate facilitie of the author who in resoning in so smal varietie of matter is able to frame so greate a change of argumentes which yet being considered of doe appeare all one in effect Brownist These assemblies haue not the povver vvhich Christ hath giuen vnto his church vnto the vvorlds end al the povvers of earth and hell cannot take from them viz. to binde and loose and to reforme things that are amisse but are driuen to the Commissarie courtes Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church hath power to execute the censures of the church but the church of Englande hath not Therefore c. The proposition faileth for the true church is sometimes without outward gouernement whereof read pag. 25. and so consequently without the power which this man speaketh off for I know he will not restraine this power of binding and loosing though he might vnto the ministerie of the word whereof notwithstanding Christ speaketh Ioh. 20. 23. saying Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted and whose sinnes ye retaine they are retained As for the assumption it is most vntrue for we haue not onely the power of Gods word which he hath giuen vnto his ministerie to bind and to loose therby but also the censures of the church in respect of outward gouernement I grant that euerie seuerall congregation hath not this power and I dare affirme that in no age it can be proued that euery seuerall congregation had this authoritie but euen in those churches which had an Eldership the same was not in euery assemblie but diuerse congregations were ordered by one senyorie therefore to say that because euerie priuate congregation hath not this power therefore it is not at all in the church is a childish kind of reasoning Brownist These assemblies cast out sathan by the power of sathan namely by these Imps of Antichrist the Bishops commissaries and priests Therfore they are not and for all their reasons seuerall and ioyned cannot be held in any Christian iudgement the true church of Christ. Answere In this last Argument is granted vnto vs that which before was denied viz. that our church hath power of casting out but it faileth in the manner for if they say true this power is not from Christ but from the imps of Antichrist c. vnto which accusation I answere the end wherefore men are cast out from amongst vs by the doctrine of our church should be that the offender by being depriued of the seales of the couenant might be brought vnto repentance Now for the ordering hereof the people are not in the weightie matters of the church to haue their voice pag. 47. c. And a presbyterie in euery congregation cannot be had pag. ●8 therfore neither election ordination excommunication nor other censures of the Church are to be committed to euerie particular congregation As for this vnchristian dealing in condemning for Antichristian whatsoeuer is not according to their humour it hath bene often answered Some defectes there are in our gouernment we challenge no perfection some corruption there is oftentimes in such as haue the ordering of it I defend not all But in this I would be resolued if wee by the power of Satan cast out Satan by what power do they cast out

edifie the most simple approuing it to euerie mans conscience he must be of life vnreproueable one that can gouerne his owne household he must be of manners sober temperate modest gentle and louing c. Answere In this description of a doctor here is nothing differing from that which hath bin in the description of a pastor For as there no mētion was made of any ecclesiastical iurisdiction so here it is also passed ouer in silence as if he had neuer said that the pastor and doctor were gouerning officers And as there he requireth of a pastor the diuiding of the worde of God aright and the approuing of it to euerie mans conscience so doth he heere require the same in a doctor and both alike in the iudgement of our author are to execute their office without any difference either of the place or of the matter or of the manner of dealing then the which what can be more fond if he speaketh the truth in saying that these offices are limited seuered and diuers And lastlie as in the description of a pastor the scriptures were abused so in this of a doctor they are not friendly handled For these-places 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. 2. Tim. 2. 15. haue bene alleaged before for the pastor who being an ouerseer of Christs flocke hath not bene denied the vse of the Scriptures to decypher out his calling but in bringing the same in again for a Doctor it appeareth that the store is now spent wherof there was no spare in the beginning of this Treatise Also these 1. Cor. 1. 17. 2. 4. doe shew what Paul did in his Apostleship but the office of a Doctor is a distinct matter from the office of an Apostle therefore altogether impertinent vnto this matter are these testimonies vsed by the author Their Elders must be of wisdome and iudgement endued with the spirite of God able to discerne betweene cause and cause betweene plea and plea and accordingly to preuent and redresse euils alwaies vigilant and intending to see the statutes ordinances and lawes of God kept in the church that not only by the people in obedience but to see the officers do their duties These men must be of life likewise vnreproueable gouerning their own families orderly they must be also of maners sober gentle modest louing temperate c. Ansvvere The third sorte of gouerning officers in the Church are by our author called Elders concerning which name howsoeuer Caluine reporteth that in churches of former times some had this title giuen vnto them who onely were conuersant in the censure of the church yet is it generally in the Scriptures ascribed vnto them that laboured in the worde and sacraments as appeareth Tit. 1. 5. Act. 14. 12. 20. 17. in other places And therupon Caluin saith Quod Episcopos presbyteros pastores ministros promiscue vocaui qui ecclesias regunt idfeciex scripturae vsu quae vocabulaista cōfundit In that I haue without making difference named Bishops and Elders and Pastors and Ministers I haue done it according to the practise of the Scripture which confoundeth these wordes And Ierome sayth Veteribus eos omnino fuisse presbyteros quos Episcopos VVith those of ancient times the same men were Elders which were Bishops Therfore it is not so directly from the word of God as in the title of this booke is promised but from the practise of some churches that he hath taken this name Elder to giue it vnto those which beare office without anie further dealing in the ministerie of the word As the name Elder in this place is not vsuall in the word so the office of an Elder as it is here described hath neither warrant of the worde nor yet of any church whether ancient or of latter daies I graunt that certain churches haue made choice of men which shoulde deale onely in the censures of the church whom they haue called Presbyteros Elders But the most that they haue euer required in such an Elder was that he should be sound in faith in life vnreproueable able to discerne of the dealings of euerie calling in the church careful to see rightly into the same and readie to ioyne in correcting with ecclesiastical censure those that are vndutifull beeing helpfull vnto the rest But that it shoulde belong vnto them to discerne betweene cause and cause betweene plea and plea c. It is a plaine pulling of the svvorde out of the magistrates hand They meane no such matter they saie for they graunt the magistrate his authoritie ouer the persons though not ouer the causes of men This it is whereas her Maiesty hath appointed Iudges in the land to end causes decide controuersies to giue sentence vpon malefactors and shirifes to see the execution of that vvhich the Iudges haue determined the seat of iudgement must be brought into the consistorie of these Elders and the office of the Shirife must be onely lefte in the hande of the magistrate to see the decrees of these auncients put in execution Now tell mee if these men do not goe beyond Corah his companie as before vvas said yet I will leaue the further consideration of these matters vnto those whom they doe concerne onely let vs see vvhat warrants they haue out of the worde of God for the largenesse of this their commission Num. 11. 24. maketh mention of three score and tenne men which were chosen by the appointment of God to bee assistants vnto Moses but these were temporall magistrates and not ecclesiasticall Againe it sayth not that Moses was discharged and the authoritie of iudging betweene plea and plea remayned in the power of these men onely As like to purpose is Act. 15. where there is neither anie such authoritie mentioned as aforesayd nor yet such an office as an vnministering Elder spoken of For the worde Elders in that place doeth signifie those that labour in vvord and doctrine as hath beene noted before As touching that of Paul 1. Tim. 5. 17. An Elder is worthie of double honour especially such as labour in the worde and doctrine From whence is collected that there were some Elders which did not labour in the word and doctrine I answere that there was a time as before was saide when such Elders were in the church but when they had their beginning how long they cōtinued how far their office extēded The author hath neither in this place nor els where shewed At the first they were not as by that hath bene shewed may appeare Afterward it should seeme that some such were appointed for the secret meetings of the faithful whiles they were vnder persecution but when the church increased and was dispersed into nations as now it is in England we reade not that such were continued in the Church nay the contrarie is flatly testified For as Ierome sayeth Idem est Presbyter qui est Episcopus antequam diaboli instinctu

in crying out they are slandered then wil it also be cōfessed that they are not persecuted Christians but vnbridled factioners For these are no slanderous positions as they say forged against them by the bishops but phantasticall assertions first deuised and now againe confirmed by themselues as by their seuerall handling of the seuerall Articles they do shew To the first Article therefore they say that neither the Lords Prayer nor any other praier in the scriptures may be vsed but by explication Also that they serue onely for instruction Againe That the verie forme of words as they are in these petitions was giuen and instituted as a set and stinted prayer we finde not in the scriptures Also to vse it for a set prayer is say they a stinting of the holy Ghost Now if these assertions do not agree with the Article and testifie that they do hold it they haue the greater cause to complaine but I see no difference betwene the one the other Now the folly of this Article is manifest in this that the Lords prayer was giuen for the same end y e other prayers were in the canonicall scripture but other prayers were not for instruction as hath bin shewed before pag. 23. I need not make the conclusion And as touching their denying the forme of praier which Christ gaue to his disciples to be his praier because we reade not that he euer vsed it And their accusing vs to be falsifiers of the text when we call it the Lords Prayer If it were not a strife about words I would say more whereas now I wil onely put them in minde that we haue learned this phrase of the holy Ghost who calleth the prayers which God hath taught and doth approue his prayers as Esa. 56. 7. I vvil make them glad bebeth tepillati in the house of my prayer for there it is called the Lords prayer not for that he vsed it but because he prescribed it And why then may not we in like sort cal this the Lords praier in as much as he hath taught it but of this enough lest it be said of vs para men gar hemin esti logoma chia c To the 2. article they say that the canonicall praiers commended to vs by Gods spirite haue this onely vse that they serue for instruction And that our morning and euening praiers are not onely a babling but apocriphall and idolatrous c. So that neither canonicall nor other praiers that are prescribed are deemed lawfull to be vsed for praiers in the sight of the Lord. Whereby it is made manifest that they are not vniustly charged with this Article Which notwithstanding is but a false assertion considering that sette praiers were vsed vnder the lawe are not forbidden in the gospell and are also vsed in all reformed churches vntil this daie To the 3. article they saie that our liturgie is drawen out of the Popes portuise is not onely idolatrous superstious and a deuised worship but a bundle of infinite grosse blasphemous errours a Pseudodiathesis a counterfet gospell an idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered and patched absurdities a new gospel a masse booke and what not How then are they slandered when it is sayde that they account our worship of God as it is now established to be false superstitious and popish But the best is these calumniations are not greatly to be regarded for if they need not to be ashamed of learning the truth of Donatus who was a schismatical heretique wee haue as small cause to cast awaie good things though it could be proued as it is not that we had taken them from an heretike And though no worke of man and so not our booke of publike praier can be free from all blemishes the Lord reseruing this glorie to himselfe that hee will bee acknowledged perfectly wise and his workes onely voide of imperfection yet so farre is this booke from deseruing these great reproches that it beeing compared with the best treatise that these disturbers haue brought forth the most grosse and blasphemous error which they cā proue therin may be iustified in cōparison of many that are deliuered for sound doctrine in their pamphlets if both of thē be right vnderstood To the 4. they say that it being subiect to the vvorship aforesaid cōsisting of al sorts of vnclen spirits atheists papists heretikes c. it is not a true mēber of the bodie of Christ. It is not thē blasphemy to charge thē with this 4. article And whether they haue cause to hold it vppon this ground or not shal be euident hereafter To the fifth article It is euident to al men saie they and confessed of our enimies that the ministers laws and other ordinances whereby the parish assemblies are gouerned are not such as Christ appointed to his church of pastor c. but by such officers courts and canons as are hatched from Rome Do they not then iustifie this article wherin as in others they cōplaine they are slandered yet in as much as they are constāt in it let thē proue by the word of God both their discipline to be good also our gouernmēt to be Antichristian which they will hardlie afford considering that before the time of papacy there were these offices in the church which these men terme Antichrististian as M. Caluin testifieth Inst. li. 5. ca. 4. se. 4. whose authoritie I vse with these men because I finde that they themselues haue alleaged the same To the 6. article they saie that vve neither hauing a lavvfull ministerie nor faithfull holie free people c. the sacraments in our assemblies deliuered are no true sacraments nor seales vvith promise How thē can these men without blushing put this article in the nūber of forged positiōs for cōsidering that they make their iudgments knowen concerning this point I maruell more they are not ashamed to denie it then I do that some of them Donatist like haue desired to be baptised again The answer to this wilbe easie by that which foloweth in the answer to the 3 brāch of the 5. argumēt To the seauenth they say that no godlie Christians separate from the false church ought to bring their infants to these parish assemblies to bee baptised into that fellovvship and profession c. These wordes do iustifie our Bishops in charging these men with this article The substance whereof seeing it doth depend vpon the former article the follies of it being perceaued the want of wisedom in this will soone be descried To the eight they say that all true christians vvithin her maiestie dominions acknovvledge her Maiestie to be the supreame magistrate and gouernes ouer all persons within the church and without the church yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall and ciuill Which assertion if it had bene receiued of the whole sect then it had bene a slander in deed but in as much as in an assembly of aboue twentie persons it was concluded that her Maiestie is