obedience but in respecte of the commaundement and worde of God therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions that which 1. Tim. 4. S. Paule sayd of meates and drinkes that they are sanctifyed vnto vs by the word of God the same is to be vnderstanded of all things else whatsoeuer we haue the vse of But the place of S. Paule in the. 14. to the Rom. is of all other most cleare where speaking of those things which are called indifferent in the ende he concludeth that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne but faith is not but in respect of the word of God therfore whatsoeuer is not done by the word of God is sin And if any will saye that S. Paule meaneth there a full persuasion and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we persuade and assure ouresclues that we doe well but whereas we haue the worde o God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonunie Subjecti pro adiuncto doth giue to vnderstand from whence the assured persuasion doth spring wherevpon it falleth out that for as much as ma our actions euen ciuill and priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the Churche which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of Go (a) Then haue you heth r to stri ed in vaine Not that we say as you charge vs in these wordes when you say that we say that (b) Holde you here no 〈◊〉 c. may be in the Church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders ceremonies of the Church it is not lawful to do what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are giuen to be the squire wherby those should be squared out Io. Whitgifte When I say that the scriptures containe all things necessary vnto saluation I doe Now scripture 〈◊〉 the direction of all things belonging to the life of man Page 15. not meane that it containeth those things onely neither doe I denie but that the worde of God so containeth generally the direction of all things pertayning to the Churche or that 〈◊〉 fall into any part of mans life that nothing ought to be done in the Churche or in the life of man contrarie to the word of God or not according to the true intent and meaning of the same Yet doe I denie that the scriptures doe expresse particularly euerie thing that is to be done in the Church which you your selfe afterward confesse or that it doth set downe any one certaine forme and kynd of gouernment of the Churche to be perpetuall for all times persons and places without alteration as I shall hereafter more particularly declare The place you do alleage out of the. 2. chap. of Salomons Prouerbes doth not proue your purpose for Salomon there teacheth the fruites and commoditie of wisedome and in the person of hir declareth what vnderstanding he shall haue in righteousnesse iudgement equitie and euery good pathe that harkeneth vnto wisedome obeyeth hir commaundements and giueth his hart to knowledge But what is this to proue that the scripture hath expressed euery particular ceremonie or kind of gouernment in the Church how followeth this reason if Princes and such as be in authoritie receiue the words of wisedome and hide hir commaundements within them c. they shall vnderstand Pro er 2. righteousnesse iudgement and equitie and euerie good pathe c. therfore the scriptures do expresse euerie ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernment that is to be vsed in the Church surely except you take héede you wil wander as farre out of the way in aleaging the scriptures as the authors of the Admonition did in quoting them I graunt you that Princes muste giue them selues to the vnderstanding of wysedome and especially of the wisedome of God contained in his word for so shall they vnderstande righteousnesse iudgement and equitie and euerye good pathe c. But what is this to our question Magistrates must be directed by the worde of God Ergo they must make no ciuill or ecclesiasticall lawe or order which is not expressed in the word of God I deny this argument Your other text is written in the. 1. Cor. 10. VVhither therfore we eate or drinke c. Whervpon you frame this argument whatsoeuer 1. Cor. 10. we do we must do it to the glory of God but no man can glorisie God in any thing but by obedience and there is no obedience but in respect of the commaundement and word of God Therfore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions to omit the vndigested forme of this argument wherin the conclusion agréeth not with the 〈◊〉 this text is as farre frō the purpose as is the other for what sequele is this we must do all to the glory of God we must obey the cōmandement wordes of God Ergo we must do nothing in our whole life but that which is particularly expressed in the worde of God Or therfore the scripture expresseth euery particular ceremonie or er or kind of gouernment to be vsed in the Church You may as well by this place conclude that euery ciuil actiō euery priuate actiō euery ciuil kind of gouernment is expressed in y ◠word For this rule of S. Paule is general and pertaineth to all Christians of what state conditiō or degrée so euer they be But the true meaning of S. Paule in y t place is that we seke y e glory of God in all things do nothing that is against his word and commādement He glori ieth God in meate drinke which acknowledgeth God to be the giuer of them and then is thankefull for them and vseth them moderately c. the like is to be said of all other actions That whiche Saincte Paule you say sayde of meates and drinkes that they are sanctified vnto vs by the worde of God c. It is true but to what purpose doe you alledge that 1. Tim. 4. place The woorde of God pronounceth all Gods creatures to bée good and the vse of them to bée lawful for al thyngs are cleane to those that bee cleane the same are to Tit. 1. 15. be desyred by vs of hym as the author and giuer of them and when we haue them wée must be thankefull for them But what is this to the proofe of any thing that wée haue nowe in controuersie But the place of Saincte Paule in the. 14. to the Romains you saye is of all other moste cleare c. Wherevpon you frame this argumente Paule speaking of things which are called indifferent sayeth that whatsoeuer is not of sayth is synne but faythe is not but in respecte of the woorde of God therefore
the priests was diminished whiche should haue sufficed for to prepare the sacrifices and therefore they desired the help of the Leuites that al things might be done more diligently there was also another cause of the Leuites helpe for the sanctifying of the temple and the preparation of the sacrifice was so suddainly commaunded that many of the priestes had not time to sanctifye themselues according to the lawe which required a certaine space for the same and the Leuites might be sanctified with lesse adoo and in shorter time And surely euen the very circumstances of the place dothe proue this to be the true vnderstanding of it For these be the words that immediatly go before But the priests were too few and were not able to fleay all the burnt offrings therfore their brethren the Leuites did help them vntil they had ended the worke and vntill other priests were sanctifyed 2. Chro. 29. 34 ▪ Your second assertion that is that the people were yet more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the priests I thinke is grounded vpon the. 15. verse of the. 30. Chapter which is this Afterward they slew the passouer the foureteene day of the second moneth and the priests and Leuites were ashamed and sanctifyed them selues and broughte the burnt offerings into the house of the Lord. Truly I sée not how you can collect any 2. Chro. 30. 15. such thing out of these words I know that some do gather such a note of that place But I do not vnderstand the reason of it Howsoeuer it be and howsoeuer you abuse the scriptures to iustify your selues I doubt not but that a greate number of those whome you contemme and séeke to deface do presently and will to their liues ende shewe that zeale of religion that diligence in their calling that vprightnesse in conuersation which becommeth them and whiche they are well assured pleaseth God neyther do I in so saying condemne the godly zeale of any but I admonish all to take héede of a preposterous and affectionated zeale such as is spoken of in the. 30. Page of the second edition of my answer to the Admonition The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 9. And I humbly craue and most ernestly desire of those whiche bare the cheefe titles in the ecclesiasticall functions that as we do in part correct our negligence by the example of the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people so they would suffer themselues to be put in remembrance of their ducties by vs which are vnderneath them and that they would not neglect this golden gift of gods grace in admonishing them by cause the Lorde doth offer it in a treane or earthen vessell but that they would first consider that as Naaman the Syrian prince receiued great commoditie by following the aduice of his mayd and after of his man And Abigael being a wise woman singular profite by obeying the counsell of hir seruant so they may receiue of tentimes profitable aduertisement by those which are in lower places than they themselues be Then let them thinke that as Naaman was neuerthelesse noble for obeying the voice of his seruaunts nor Abigaell neuerthelesse wise bycause she listned vnto the words of hir man so it cannot deminish their true honoure nor empaire the credite of their godly and vncounterfaite wisedome if they giue care vnto that which is spoken by their inferiours Io. Whitgifte This humilitie appeareth to be counterfaite by the opprobrious speaches and great contempt that you shew towards them in the rest of this booke What diligence you are prouoked vnto by the forwardnesse and redinesse of the people I know not but euery man may sée you are ready to shake off your calling vpon euery light occasion Neither will you preach in those places where the Gospell hath not bin so well planted but there only you loyter where there is lesse nede and where you easily may make sturres and moue contention as experience sufficiently teacheth I know none no not of the best that refuseth to heare either you or any other modestly admonishing neither haue you any cause hereof to complaine but your stomackes are such and your arrogancie so great that you passingly abuse your selues toward those whome indéede you ought to reuerence and with all duty obey I maruell that you will confesse yourselfe to be vnderneath them seing you so cry out against superioritie in the clergie and claime such interest in equalitie but I may not stand in answering words The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 10. And last of all that as if they had not listned vnto those simple persons the one had perished in his leprosie the other had bin slayne with hir familie * This is glorious talke builded vpon a false ground euen so if they shall for any worldly respect of honoure riches or feare of being accounted either vnaduised in taking this course or light or inconstant in forsaking it stop their cares against this louing admonition of the Lord they prouoke his anger not against their health or against their life but against their owne soules by exercising of vnlawfull authoritie and by taking vnto them partly such things as belong by no meanes vnto the Church and partly which are common vnto them with the whole Churche or else with other the ministers and gouernours of the same whereof I beseeche them humbly to take the better heede for that the iudgement of the Lord will be vpon a great part of them by so much the heauier by how much they haue not only beleeued the Gospell but also haue receiued this grace of god that they should suffer for it So that if they will neither take example of diuers their superiours the nobles of this realme nor be admonished by vs of the lower sorte wherein we hope better of them yet they woulde remember their former tunes and correct themselues by themselues and seing they haue bin content for the Gospels sake to quit the necessarie things of this life they wold not thinke much for the discipline which is no small part of the Gospell hauing both things necessary and commodious to part from that which is not only in them superfluous and hath nothing but a vaine ostentation which wil vanish as the shadow but also is hurtfull vnto them and pernicious vnto the Church which thing I do more largely and plainly lay foorth in this Booke Io. Whitgifte Surely if they do for any suche respects refuse any admonition giuen vnto them for the auoyding of such things as be vnlawfull and as they vniustly retaine then no doubt they are worthy of great reprehension but if your Admonition be not louing but spitefull not brotherly but vnchristian nay no Admonition in déede but a very scolding and vncharitable rayling if the thinges you would haue them forsake bée bothe lawfull and conueniente for them to vse and contrariwise the things that you moue them vnto tend to confusion and ouerthrow of the Gospell and of
both in the Discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certaine reasons why there shoulde be other gouernment nowe than was in the tyme of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You sette downe foure rules whiche you woulde haue all orders and ceremonies of The first rule of T. C. concerning ceremonies examined the Church framed by c. The first is 1. Cor. 10. that they offende not any especially the Churche of God whiche rule I thinke you take out of these wordes of that Chapter Tales estote vt nullum praebeatis offendiculum neque Iudaeis c. be suche as you giue no offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Grecians nor to the Churche of God But truly they make 1. Co. 10. ve 32. little or nothing for your purpose neither yet any other thing conteyned in that chapter For the Apostle there sheweth how one priuate man should behaue himself towardes an other yea and towardes the Church in things that may be done or not The orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans liking or mislyking be done he prescribeth no generall rule for the Churche to make orders and appoynte Ceremonies by For what reason were it that the orders of the Churche shoulde so depende vppon one or two mennes lyking or misselyking that she should be compelled to alter the same so ofte as any shoulde therwith be offended Which must of necessitie come to passe if thys your rule were generall For what Churche is voide of some contentious persons quarellers whō no order no reason no reformatiō Musculus can please It is true that Musculus sayth There bee some whō no churche can please hauing alwayes some thing to reproue in other men and nothing in themselues The Anabaptistes the Libertines the Papistes and other vnquiet myndes and contentious persons are offended with such rites and Ceremonies as the reformed Churches vse neither is there as I suppose any reformed Church voyde of some of these kinde of persons shall they therfore by and by alter the forme and state S. Paule in this place would haue no iuste offence giuen to any either faithfull or infidell For Christians ought to be such at whose examples doctrine and lyfe no man mighte iustely take any offence True it is that in all orders and Ceremonies the Church must take héed that there be no iust offence giuen but she hath not to depend vpon euery priuate mans iudgement Whereas you say especially the Churche of God you adde to the wordes of the Apostle T. C. addeth to the texte to make it serue his turne for he sayth not especially and if you marke his meaning well you shall rather finde that he woulde haue especiall care taken that there be no offence giuen to such as are not yet come to the Churche whiche some vnderstand by the Iewes and Grecians least they shoulde still be withdrawne from the Churche when as there is no suche feare to be had of those that be alreadie membres of the same The seconde rule of T. C. allowed The iudgemēt of comelinesse and order resteth not in euery priuate person The thirde rule examined Your seconde rule 1. Cor 14. is a good and necessarie rule not onely alledged by me b t allowed and imbraced as moste conueniente but who shall iudge what is moste comely and the best order shall euery priuate man or rather such as haue the chiefe care and gouernment of the Churche This is a rule prescribed by the Apostle to the Church wherby she must direct hir orders and gouernment not to euery priuato person to picke a quarell to disquiet the Church The third 1. Cor. 14. that all be doone to edifying This sentence can not be applyed ge nerally to all things vsed in the Churche if we truly interprete the meaning of the Apostle but to the gifte of toungs to prayers and to prophecies whereof he hath made mētion before Neither can I perceiue that any learned Interpreter doth take it as a general rule for al rites and ceremonies but only for the exercises of Praying singing of Psalmes interpreting and Prophecying For of things vsed in the Church some pertaine to instruction and some to order and comelinesse For the firste he giueth thys rule Letal things be done to edifying For both the first and the second he giueth this Omnia decenter c. Let all things be done decently and in order Althoughe those ceremonies and rites whiche are appointed by the Churche for order and comlinesse do edifie In the treatise of appare tract 7. as Ceremonies that is not of themselues but per accidens accidentally as I haue in an other place declared It is sufficient if the Gouernours of the Church and suche as haue authoritie to ordeyne suche rites doe thynke them to be profitable in the respect of the tyme person and place neyther muste euerie priuate mannes iudgement in this case be respected as it is well sette downe by the Articles agréed vpon by the Dutche Churche in London allowed by M. Beza and by diuers other reformed Churches It is the thirde article Quid porrò ad aedificationem faciat c. Moreouer Theses Ecclesia Belgio-germanicae arti 3. what is profytable to edifye and what is not is not to be determined by the iudgemente of the common people nor of some on man nor yet by the issue of mens actions c. I can net vnderstande out of what parte of the. 14. to the Romaines youre laste The last rule pertaineth no more to ceremonies thā to other actions rule is taken except it be the sixt seuen or eyght verses out of the whiche I would gladly knowe howe you can deriue any rule to frame ceremonies by rather than all other actions of man whatsoeuer These be your rules to square by and truly we refuse them not thoughe some of them pertain nothing to your purpose The Dutch Churche and the other Churches in the. 11. of those articles before mentioned touching cōmaunding or forbidding indifferent things determin thus Qui propter aliam rationem c. They whiche for any other cause either cōmand or forbid at their pleasure the free vse of indifferēt things then for one Theses Eccles. Belg. art 11. of these three that is neither for edifying nor for policy nor ecclesiastical order especially those which do rashly iudge other mēs cōsciences in these matters offēd heynonsly against god against their neighbours Wherby they séeme to allow any order takē in indifferent things if it tend either to edifying or policie or ecclesiastical order But to return to your Reply y t which you speak of houre time day of prayer c. iustifie my saying for they be not expressed in the scripture as you also now affirm but left to the ordering not of euery priuate man but of the Churche or such as haue the chief care and gouernment of the
Sacraments administred in priuate families so that they be done according to the order of the Churche and not in the contempt of common and publike assemblies And I thinke that suche noble men and gentlemen as vpon oceasion either of infirmitie of body or of distance of place or some other vrgēt cause haue the word of God preached in their priuate families and the Sacraments ministred according to the order of the Churche are greatly to be commended Neyther doth this open any window to secrete and schismaticall conuenticles suche I meane as seeke corners bycause they wil not kéep the orders lawes of the Church but contemne the same and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions In the which number those be whome I haue truly charged with conuenticles for they despising the order of the Churche haue wickedly separated themselues from the same whose opinions notwithstanding you mainteine although you would séeme to condemne their conuenticles But it may be that you coumpt this time to be a time of persecution and so excuse their doings To be short when I speake either of priuate preaching or of priuate ministring the sacraments I meane it especially in respecte of the place and not in the respect of any schismaticall separation so that hitherto you haue said nothing that impugneth any thing that I haue written Neyther haue I spoken any otherwise in all these things than other learned and godly men haue done as it is to be séene by all theyr seuerall authorities which I haue in their places set downe Chapter 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what ment Saint Paule in 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certaine orders vnto them to be obserued in the Church thus generally to conclude Omnia decenter ordine fiant Let all things be done decently and in order Doth he not there giue vnto them authoritie to make orders in the Church so that al things be done in order and decently The best interpreters doe vnderstande this as a generall rule giuen vnto the Churche to examine hir traditions and constitutions by And therefore without all doubt their iudgement is that the Church hath authoritie in externall things to make orders and appoint lawes not expressed in the worde of God so that this rule of the Apostle be obserued Io. Whitgifte Here haue you not answered one word to that which I haue alleadged out of the The ground of the assertion vnanswered by T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my generall assertion in this point nor to the interpretation of it that therefore being graunted the rest must néedes stande in full force that is that the scripture hathe lefte many thinges to the discretion of the Church The opinion of auncient fathers and Councelles of things indifferent Chap. 2. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly councels or auncient fathers were any thing Auncient fathers of thīgs indifferent at all regarded of these men as they be not suche is their arrogancie this controuersie might soone be decided For the most auncient fathers and best learned as Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian and other do expressely declare that euen from the Apostles time the Church hath always had authoritie in such matters and hathe obserued diuers orders and ceremonies not once mentioned in the word of God T. C. Page 16. Sect. 3. Page 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are broughte in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and Councells as (a) Wilfull ignorance for you know very well that euery one of them greatly fauoureth this cause dumbe persons in the stage only to make a shew and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersie there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strēgth of his cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustine which was a great time after them And if the godly councels could haue helped here it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of men the credite of many be better than of one and that this is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is looked vnto in a matter that is debated more than theirs of the common sort so the iudgement of a counsell where many learned men be gathered togither carieth more likelihoode of truth with it than the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall counsell much more than if it be generall therfore you do your cause greate iniurie if you could alleadge them and do not This is once to bee obserued of the reader throughout your whole booke that you haue well prouided that you should not be taken in the trip for misaledging the scriptures for that vnlesse it be in (b) Moe scriptures than you and something better applyed one or two points we heare continually in stead of Esay and Ierenty S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the And as we say in our tonge ettles amōg roses Prophets and Apostles S. Augustine and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionisius Areopagita Clement c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures which in the controuersies which rise amongst ourselues flie so far from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if this be a sufficient proofe of things to say (c) A better proofe than to say I say so as you commonly vse to do such a doctor said so suche a councell decreede so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faythe maye be shaken And therefore bycause you haue (d) Petitio principij no proofein the word of God we comfort ourselues assured that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Byshops and of other things whiche are in question be not in heauen that they will fall and come to the grounde from whence they were taken Now it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earth and that they are of men and not of God Io. Whitgifte Here are many words which might well haue bin spared but that you are desirous Sect. 1. to haue your modest speaches knowne to the world In the. 25. page I haue told you where some of these dumbe persons speake their partes but you are blinde when you should sée and deafe when you should heare that which you
to be holden for a lavve Whereby it is manifest that those things maye be retained in the Churche whych are not expressed in the Scripture In the same Epistle he reporteth the aunswere that Ambrose made vnto hym beyng demaunded whether it were lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye or not to faste seyng that among the Churches there was some diuersitie in thys poyut Quando bic sum sayth he non ie uno Idem Sabbato quando Romae sum ieiuno Sabbato ad quamcunque ecclesiam veneritis eius morem seruate si pati scandalum non vultis aut facere VVhen I am here I faste not on the Sabboth vvhen I am at Rome I doe faste on the Sabboth and to what Churche so euer you come keepe the custome thereof if you vvill neyther suffer offence nor gyue offence The whole Epistle is worthy of reading T. C. Page 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6. The Answerer goeth aboute to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtayned yet he maye well knowe that it is no good argumente to proue that they are good For (*) A true sayings but not truely applyed as the beste earthe bryngeth forth weedes so doe the beste men bring forthlyes and errours But let vs heare what is brought that if this visarde and shewe of truth be taken awaye all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the fyrst place of Saynt Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we holde for that that the Churche may haue things not expressed in the scripture is not (a) But it is against that that nothing should be placed in the Churche whyche God in his word hath not commaunded and therefore you do here but shifte of the controuersie against that it ought to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the Scripture which are not by plaine ter es expressed in the Scripture But agaynst you it ▪ maketh much and ouerturneth all your buylding in this booke For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture they are to be obserued of the Churche which are the customes of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers then how can these things be varyed according to time place and persons which you saye should be when as that is to be retayned which the people of God hath vsed and the decrees of the forefathers haue ordayned And then also howe can we doe safelyer than to followe the Apostles customes and the Churches in theyr tyme whych we are sure are oure forefathers and the people of God Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the Papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I will not enter nowe to discusse whether it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place You (b) Vntruth proceeding of Ignorance oppose Ambrose and Augustine I coulde oppose Ignatius Tertullian Tertul. de cor milit Ignat. ad phi epist. 5. whereof the one sayth it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other that it is to kill the Lord and this is the inconuenience that commeth of suche vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose saith so and therefore it is true And although Ambrose Augustine being straungers and priuate men at Rome would haue so done yet it followeth not that if they hadde bene Citizens ministers there that they would haue done it if they had done so to yet it followeth not but y e they wold haue spokē against that appoinment of dayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of y e which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting when as the one sayth it was remedie or rewarde to fast other dayes but in Lent August d temp ser. 62 Amb. 10. li ▪ epist ▪ not to faste was synne And the other asketh what saluation we can obtayne if we blot not our synnes by fastyng seyng that the Scripture sayth that fastyng and almes doth delyuer from sinne and therefore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting which I therefore recyte bicause you would seeme by Augustine and Ambrose iudgements to alowe of the wekely and commaunded fastes Io. Whitgifte I haue sufficiently proued that the Scripture hathe not expressed all things that may be vsed in the Church touching ceremonies order and such matters for that is the question we haue nowe in handling and for further proofe and confirmation of the same I doe not disdaine the authoritie of any man especially of Augustine a man Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises for his excellent learning and sound iudgement in most poynts of Religion estéemed of all that haue any shewe of learnyng or sparkle of modestie his opinicn of the sufficiencie of the Scripture in matters of saluation of the authoritie of it in iudgeing matters of controuersie is perfecte and sounde as may be séene Lib. 2. aduersus Cresco gramma Lib. contra Maximi Lib. de vnitate ecclesiae Lib. 2 de doct Christ ▪ Chap. 16. 20. Euang. Iohannis Epist. 112. and in a number of places else he speaketh also of Ceremonyes and traditions as moderately as diuinely and as warely as any man dothe as it appeareth euidently in these places that I haue in my answere alleaged And therfore he is not wyth suche contempte to be reiected nor yet defaced wyth vntrue surmises That which commeth from so good and learned a man is the rather to be beléeued so long as it is not repugnant to the worde of God And althoughe the best earth bringeth forth some weedes yet the good fruite muste not for the wéedes sake be refused This is a very meane reason good men sometimes erre and be deceiued therefore they must neuer in any thing be beléeued But to come to the purpose you say that this fyrst place of Saint Augustine is nothing agaynst any thing that you holde c. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I holde for it proueth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determyned any certaintie but lefte them to the disposition of others for he sayth In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu scriptura diuina ▪ c. and that these things be not suche as be repugnant or against the worde of God but accordyng to the rule of Saint Paule 1. Cor. 14. if you were not of purpose disposed agaynst your owne conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader you myghte easily vnderstande by my expressed words vttered in this portion of my answere and in all other places where I haue occasion to speake of the
your wordes vttered in this place they will then no doubte vnderstande that you séeke fréedome from all lawes of Princes and imagine that suche perfection maye be in men that they shall not néede to be gouerned by ciuill lawes but euery man to be a lawe to him selfe And héere your subtile dealing is worthy to be noted whiche is very vsuall with you in altering the case for whereas the kynde of apparell is appoynted to be a distinction from other men and an externall note of their calling as it is in other sortes of men as Iudges Sergeantes Aldermen c. you as though you knewe not this make your Reader beléeue that the Magistrate in appoynting apparell dothe mistrust the Ministers discretion in wearing his owne geare comely and in order as if the meaning of the Magistrates commaundement héerein were that Ministers shoulde not goe eyther dissolutely or disorderly and not rather that all Ministers shoulde vse that fourme of decent apparell whereby they mighte in one vniforme order agrée ámongest them selues and differ from other states of people in hir Dominions If you ment vprightly you woulde not so often deale in this order Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 55. Sect. 1. Iudges Sergeants Aldermen and Citizens are knowne by their apparell and why maye not Ministers be so likewyse are they not vnder subiection be they not subiect to ciuill lawes and ordinances ought they not to obey their gouernours in all things not agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 2. And whereas you woulde proue that it maye be done with the Ministers as it is done wyth Iudges Sergeantes Aldermen and Sheriffes the case is not lyke For as for these which be in office their robes and gownes may as their maces and swordes somewhat helpe to set foorthe the maiestie and moderate pompe whiche is meete for the offices of Iustice whiche they execute and consequently to helpe to strike a profitable feare into their hearts whiche are vnderneath them whiche hathe nor can haue no place in the minister whose authoritie and power as it is not outwarde so can it not nor ought not to borrowe any credite of those externall shewes And the Magistrate or the Citie may seeke some honor of the Citizens mustering as it were by numbers in one liuerie whiche ought not to be looked for at the ministers hande because he honoreth and serueth the Magistrate an other waye nor can not also considering that they are scattered throughe all the lande in euery Towne one or not so many as beeing put in one liuerie would make any great shewe to the honour and commendation of the Towne or Citie where they remayne Io. Whitgifte I mighte as well answere for Iudges Sergeants c. as you doe for ministers and saye that seeing the Magistrate dothe allowe them as wyse learned and discrete men and trusteth them with the gouernment of the common wealthe it were somethyng harde not to trust them with the appoynting of their owne apparell but so shoulde I reason fondly and seditiously for it is méete that learned wyse and discrete men should be subiecte to lawes and the wyser the learneder and the discréeter they be the more willing they are to obey the same And this kinde of argument tendeth to nothing else but to the animating of the subiects agaynst the Magistrate and agaynst the lawes The subiects an nated 〈◊〉 the magistrate Thoughe the authoritie that the Minister oughte to haue muste come especially by his doctrine good conuersation and by his calling yet is no outwarde meanes béeing lawfull to be refused whereby the same maye be helped and he muste labour as muche as he can euen by outwarde meanes whether it be of conuersation or of apparell or any suche lyke thing to commende his office and calling and to procure reuerence vnto it A man mighte lykewyse saye that Princes Iudges and Magistrates are not to be reuerenced for their apparell sake but for the authoritie committed vnto them by God and yet is it méete and conuenient that they weare suche kinde of apparell as may externally commende their authoritie The apparell of Ministers declareth their modestie and grauitie signifieth their calling and office perteyneth to comelynesse and order and therefore as conuenient to be prescribed vnto them as any other kinde of apparell is to Iudges Sergeantes or other ciuill Magistrates And forasmuche as Ministers be members of the common wealthe it is méete that they shoulde be subiecte to the orders of the same It is the honor of the Prince to haue all the states and degrées of persons within hir dominion in good order be they in Citie or in Towne togither or separate and therefore this is nothing that you say the Magistrate or the Citie maye seeke some honor of the Citizens c. The Iudge wheresoeuer he goeth ought to be knowne by his apparel euen so the Minister neyther can you shewe any good reason to the contrarie M. Caluine vpon Caluine the. 23. of Mat. sayth it is méete that Doctors should in grauitie and modestie of apparell differ from the common sorte Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 3. And so you see your question answered whereby appeareth they are subiectes as other are and to obey also sometimes where the commaundement is not giuen vpon good grounds Io. Whitgifte It is answered in déede according to my expectation but neyther according to the truthe nor the duetie of a subiect The distinction of Apparell was appoynted for Ministers before the Popes tyrannie Chap. 4. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 55. Sect. 2. 3. If you doubte whether a particular kinde of apparell differing from the lay men were euer appoynted for Ministers in the Church before the Popes tyrannie and whether in these dayes it maye be appoynted in reformed Churches or no heare the iudgement of master Bullinger and master Gualter in an Epistle written by thē to master N. and master M. Their words be these That in the auncient Churche there vvas a particular fashion of apparell Bullinger Gualter for Priests it appeareth in the Ecclesiasticall historie of Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 27. and of Socrates lib. 6. cap. 22. No man is ignorante vvhich hath but lightly redde ouer the monumentes of the auncient fathers but that the Ministers vsed a cloake in their seruice And therefore I say de before that the diuersitie of garmentes had not his originall of the Pope Eusebius citeth out of the auncient vvryters that sainct Iohn the Apostle vvare on his head a leafe or thinne plate lyke vnto a Bishops myter Pontius Diaconus vvitnesseth of sainct Cyprian the Martyr that vvhen he offered his necke to the executioner he first gaue him his cappe and the Deacon his vpper garment and so stode appareled in vvhite linnen Moreouer Chrysostome maketh mention of vvhyte apparell of Ministers Hitherto Bullinger and Gualter T. C. Pag. 54. Sect. 3.
tyrannie and excessiue is moderate and lawfull and according bothe to the lawes of God and man To conclude I see that you are as farre from order and a ryghte forme of gouernment as you are from modestie and due obedience and that the ende you shoote at is nothyng else but a méere confusion not onelye of the Churche but of the common wealthe also the gouernment whereof you would haue framed according to your platforme of the Churche that is you would haue it brought from a Monarchie to a popular or Aristocraticall kinde of gouernmente euen as you would haue the Church Chap. 3. the. 52. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 1. Paule was superior both to Timothie and Titus as it may easily be gathered out of his Epistles written vnto them T. C. Page 86. Sect. 3. M. Doctor reasoneth agayne that Paule an Apostle and in the hyghest degree of ministerie ▪ They are not yet proued Euangelistes was superior to Timothie and Titus Euangelistes and so in a lower degree of ministerie therefore one Minister is superior to another one Byshop to another Byshop which are all one office ▪ and one function As if I shoulde saye my Lorde Maior of London is aboue the Sherifes therefore one Sherife is superior to another Io. Whitgifte There was no difference betwixte them in respect of preaching the Gospell and The example o 〈◊〉 proueth ritie among y t ministers of the worde administring the sacramentes but in respecte of gouernment therefore among Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes there may be degrées of dignitie and superioritie and one may rule ouer another which is the grounde of my assertion and the ouerthrow of yours And this doth the example of Paul proue euidently euen as the example of my Lorde Mayor doth proue that there is superioritie in gouernment among the Citizens For thus you should haue reasoned as my Lord Mayor his authoritie aboue the rest of the Citizens declareth that there is superioritie in the ciuill state and one subiecte to another euen so Paules superioritie ouer Timothie Titus and other Ministers declareth that there may be superioritie in the state Ecclesiasticall and that one of them may and ought to be subiect to another thus you should haue applyed the similitude if you had truely applyed it Chap. 3. the. 53. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 2. Titus had superioritie ouer al y e other pastors Ministers which Titus had superioritie were in Creta for he had potestatem constituendi oppidatim presbyteros ad Tit. The which place M. Caluine expounding sayth on this sort Discimus ex hoc loco c. vvelearne of this place saith he that there vvas not suche equalitie Caluine confessem superioritie among ministers among the Ministers of the Churche but that one bothe in authoritie and councell did rule ouer another T. C. Page 86. Sect. 3. Againe another argument he hath of the same strength Titus being an Euangelist was superior to al the pastors in Crete which was a degree vnder the Euangelists therefore one 〈◊〉 ▪ must be superior vnto another pastor And that he was superior he proueth bycause he had authoritie ordeine pastors so that the print of the Archbishop is so deepely set in his head that he 〈◊〉 he 〈◊〉 imagine nothing but that Titus should be Archbyshop of all Creta Io. Whitgifte Titus was a Byshop as it shal be proued and you haue not one worde in Scripture of his beyng an Euangelist it is Erasmus and Pellicane two famous men that imagine Titus to haue been Archbyshop of Creta scoffe at them Chap. 3. the. 54. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 4. I haue shewed before howe these wordes are to be taken of Saynte Paule And for so muche as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authoritie of Caluine so often I wyll sende him to Caluines owne interpretation vpon this place where he (*) You shifte of M. Caluines place for superioritie amongst the Cleargie by flying to another place of election of Ministers sheweth that Titus dyd not ordeyne by hys owne authoritie For Saynte Paule woulde not graunte Titus leaue to doe that whyche he hymselfe woulde not and sheweth that to saye that Titus shoulde make the election of Pastors by hymselfe is to gyue vnto hym a princely authoritie and to take awaye the election from the Church and the iudgement of the insufficiencie of the Minister from the companye of the pastors which were saith he to prophane the whole gouernment of the Church Io. Whitgifte Thys is to set Caluine againste Caluine and not to answere hym and yet thys is nothyng contrarie to that whyche I haue alleaged oute of hym for in the place that I haue alleaged he gathereth vpon these wordes vt constituas oppidatìm presbyteros The shifts of the Replyer ▪ c. that there was not suche equalitie among the Ministers of the Churche but that one bothe in authoritie and Councell dyd rule ouer another You to auoyde thys testimonie of Caluine for superioritie tell me that Caluine saythe vpon this place that Titus dyd not ordeyne Ministers by hys owne authoritie c. whyche is no answere to the place that I haue alleaged but a verye quarrell pickte oute to auoyde the answering of it Master Caluine sayth that among the Ministers there was one ruled ouer another authoritate consilio by authoritie and Councell And he dothe gather it oute of the texte by me alleaged eyther answere it or gyue place vnto it or denie it Of electing Ministers I haue spokē before it is now out of place to speake of it agayne and it is to no purpose but to shift of an Answere Chap. 3. the. 55. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 5. I maruell therefore what M. Doctor meaneth to be so busye wyth M. Caluine and to seeke confirmation of hys Archbyshop and Byshop at hym whyche woulde haue shaken at the namyng of the one and trembled at the offyce of the other onlesse it be bycause he woulde fayne haue hys playster where he receyued hys wounde But I bare assure hym that in hys garden he shall neuer fynde the herbe that wyll heale hym And bycause that the Scriptures when they make for oure cause receyue thys answere commonly that they serued but for the Apostles tymes and Master Caluines authoritie wyll weye nothyng as I thinke wyth M. Doctor when he is alleaged by vs againste hym I will sende hym to the Greeke S choliast whiche vpon this place of Titus saythe after this sorte He woulde not speaking of Saynte Paule haue the whole Isle of Crete ministred and gouerned by one but that euerye one shoulde haue his proper charge and care for so shoulde Titus haue a lighter laboure and the people that are gouerned shoulde enioye greater attendance of the pastor whylest he that teacheth them dothe not runne aboute the gouernmente of manye congregations but attendeth vnto one and garnisheth that Io.
be willing to learne that where the Apostles coulde not be presente themselues there they appoynted some other to gouerne the Churches for them as the Apostle Paule did Titus at Creta Therefore this reason of yours is sóone answered And in that that the Apostles dyd appoynt Byshoppes in Churches whyche they had planted and gaue vnto them suche authoritie it is euident that therin they made them theyr successours which they did not withoute sufficient testimonie and warrant of the spirite of God and therfore you do but talke you proue nothing Chap. 4. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Lin. 9. Sect. 1. 2. The necessitie of Deanes I do not acknowledge I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaties I shall haue occasion to speake a worde hereafter For Earles and Dukes and suche lyke titles of honour they are ciuill neyther dothe it followe that bycause there may newe titles or newe offices be broughte into the ciuill gouernment that therefore the same maye be attempted in the Church For God hath left a greater libertie in instituting things in the common wealth than in the Churche For for so muche as there be diuers Common wealthes and dyuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth out that the offices and dignities whyche are good in one common wealthe are not good in an other as those whych are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those whiche are good in Aristocratie are not good in a popular state But that can not be sayde of the Churche whyche is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment thorough out the worlde In common wealthes also there are conuersions one forme beeing chaunged into an other whiche can not be in the true Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Your acknowledging or not acknowledgyng the necessitie of Deanes c. is not greatly materiall they depende not vpon you To the example of king Saule the first king of Israell you say nothing and yet it is materiall There is no suche difference betwixte the ciuill gouernment of the common wealth and the externall gouernment of the Churche but that the one in many thinges may be vsed as an example for the other And it is vntrue y t the external forme of gouernment in the Church ought to be one and the selfe same thorough out the worlde in all tymes and places as it shall hereafter more fully appeare But still I woulde haue the Reader to note Tract 17. what kynde of gouernmente of the Churche you doe allowe and ioyne the same wyth that assertion of yours that the gouernment of the common wealth muste bée framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche as the hangyngs to the house Chap. 4. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Sect. 2. As for Erasmus authoritie which saith that Titus was an archbishop I haue answered to it And where as Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgemente of many Bishoppes was committed to Titus * vntrue for you haue not as yet spoken one worde of it I haue declared in what sorte it is to be vnderstanded and yet vppon these wordes the Bishoppe can hardly conclude that whyche he dothe that Titus hadde the gouernmente of many Bishoppes For it is one thyng to saye the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thing to say that he had the gouernment of many Io. Whitgifte And shall the same answere serue for Lyra too Well I haue answered your answere to Erasmus And I truste that these authorities wyth the Godlie Reader shall haue the more credite bycause this Reuerende Father dothe herein confirme their opinions whose iudgement for his singular vertue and learning ought to be more estemed than a number suche as you are You neyther haue answered nor doe answere nor can answere these wordes of Chrysostome and it is but a verie poore shifte to make suche a distinction betwixte iudgemente and gouernment For what is it else to haue the iudgemente of manye Byshoppes commytted vnto hym but to haue the gouernment shewe a difference if you can No doubte you woulde haue doone it if you coulde Wherefore this authoritie of Chrysostome remayneth vntouched and it confirmeth my answere to the Gréeke Scholiast who borrowed his wordes of him Neyther would you haue thus dalyed in this place if you had looked vppon Chrysostomes wordes who there affirmeth that Paule didde commytte to Titus the whole yle of Creta Chap. 4. the. 20. Diuision The fourth Reason The Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernment maye not be confounded or be together Quarta ratio in one person But to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil power Ergo it can not be exercised by any Ecclesiasticall person The ansvvere of the Bishop Bothe these gouernmentes vvere confounded in Moyses Therefore Eius solutio they may be confounded And the priestes of Israell had the iudgemente and gouernment of the people And Sainct Augustine was troubled vvith hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And vvhere you saye to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil gouernment nay in Ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuil And these differences of gouernment may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongeth only to the ecclesiastical officer and to none other Hereof S. Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae c. This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therefore may be exercised by any ecclesiasticall person T. C. Page 94. Sect. 3. The answere of the Bishoppe vnto the fourthe supposed reason perteyneth vnto an other question that is whether Ecclesiastical persons oughte to exercise ciuill iurisdiction wherevnto I will answere by Gods grace when I come to speake vppon occasion of M. Doctors booke of that question In the meane tyme I will desire the reader to consyder what weake groundes the Archebishoppe and Archedeacon stande vppon seeyng that the Bishoppe of Sarum being so learned a man and of so greate readyng coulde say no more in their defense whiche notwithstandyng in the controuersies agaynst Doctor Harding is so pythie and so plentyfull Io. Whitgifte The Bishop of Sarum hathe sayde muche more than you haue answered vnto and in the respecte of the reasons he hath sayde fully inough You may not thinke but that if he had bin disposed to haue delt of purpose in this cause he coulde haue sayde muche more But your secrete and priuie nippes whereby y u 〈◊〉 to the Reader that he would willingly defende a false cause shall neuer be able to deface so worthie a Prelate You maye perceiue by this his conclusion 〈◊〉 toucheth you so néere that he tooke no great care or tyme for answering these weake reasons for thus he concludeth I beseeche you to take these sodaine answeres in good parte As for these reasons in my iudgement they are not made to buylde vp
Matth. 5. 6. 7. If thou bring thy gifte to the alter c. Agree with thine aduersarie quickly c. It is vsuall in all exhortations and it is a maner of speaking that giueth euery man occasion to apply that vnto him selfe whiche is spoken Neither doe I héerein pinc e at our sauiour Christes action as you surmise for he spake generally to them all and therefore vsed that forme of words which was most conuenient for that purpose Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision Admonition The eyghte They vsed no other words but suche as Christ left we borrowe from Papistes the body of our Lorde Iesus Christ which was giuen for the. c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 101. Sect. 2. 3. From whence soeuer these words were borrowed they were well Of the words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christ. c. borrowed for it is a godly prayer and an apte application of that sacrament and putteth the Communicants in minde of the effecte of Christes passion exhibited vnto them by that sacrament and sealed with the same if it be worthily receyued It maketh no matter from whome we receyue any thing so it be godly profitable and consonant to the scriptures But I pray you tell vs what Pope inuented these words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christe c Admonition The ninth They had no Gloria in excelsis in the ministerie of the sacrament then for it was put f Telesphorus in anno 130. to afterwarde We haue nowe Ansvvere Pag. 101. Sect. 5. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. It is the common consent of ecclesiasticall hystories that the Apostles Of Gloria in excelsis dyd celebrate the Lords supper with the Lords prayer and yet we doe not reade that Christe dyd so You also teache that the The Apostles celebrated the Lords supper with y e Lords prayer supper ought not to be ministred without a sermon and in the ministration thereof you vse diuers prayers and other orders whiche Christe vsed not Can you espie a mote if it be a mote as it is not in an other mans eye and can you not perceyue a beame to be in your owne There is nothing conteyned in Gloria in excelsis but the same is taken out of the scriptures and to be vsed of all true Christians Telesphorus whome you note in the margent to haue added to the Telesphorus a good Bishop supper of the Lorde Gloria in excelsis in the yere of the Lorde 130. was a good Bishop and the Church of Rome was as yet pure in doctrine and vnspotted with heresie Io. Whitgifte No answere to one whit of all this Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision Admonition The tenth They tooke it with conscience we with custome Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 3. 4. This is but your presumptuous and arrogant iudgement who dare take vpon you to giue this generall sentence so generally vpon this whole Churche of Englande for you make no exception but set vs ad oppositum to them If you say some take it without conscience I thinke you say truely and so did some of them as Iudas But if you say all or the moste part you go beyonde your commission and make your selues Iudges of other mens consciēces contrary to the rule of Christ. Mat. 7. Luke 6. and of Paule Rom. 2. and. 14. 1. Cor. 4. and of Iames. 4. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. When as many receyue they know not what some other without any examination eyther of thē selues or by others howe they come with what fayth in Christ with what loue towards their brethren I see not agaynst what rule of our fauiour Christ it is or what rashe iudgement to say that they come rather of custome than of conscience when neyther they speake generally of all nor singularly of any one particular person Io. Whitgifte Generally to charge the whole Churche with that which is but the faulte of some and thus boldely to enter into many mens consciences must néedes be bothe lacke of great discretion and also agaynst those rules of Scripture that I haue quoted in my Answere to the Admonition ¶ Of shutting men from the Communion and compelling to communicate Chap. 2. the first Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They shut men by reason of their g 1. Co. 5. 11. sinnes from the Lords supper we thrust them in their sinne to the Lords supper Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 6. 7. The place that you alleage out of the fifte chapter of the fyrst to the Corinthians whiche is this But novve I haue vvritten vnto you that you companie not togither if any that is called a brother be a fornicatour c. dothe not particularly touche the secluding of men by reason of their sinnes from the Communion but generally prohibiteth true Christians to haue any familiaritie or frendship with any suche notorious offendour If you were not with malice blynded you mighte easily vnderstande that by the order and rules of this Church of Englande all notorious and knowne offendours euen suche as S. Paule heere The Admonito gratify the Papists speaketh of are secluded from the Lordes supper But peraduenture your meaning is that no man should be compelled to the Communion at any time wherein you greatly gratifie the Papistes and shewe your selfe a good patrone of theirs When you shewe any reason why men may not be compelled to come to the Communion then you shall be answered In the meane time you are worthy of your fee. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. vlt. If the place of the. 5. to the Corinth do forbid that we should haue any familiaritie with notorious offenders it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the Communion Io. Whitgifte I will Answere you as M. Caluine answered the Anabaptists obiecting the same Calu aduersus Anabapt place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. in effect to the same ende and purpose that the Authors of the Admonition doe vsing the like collection that you doe in this place But wheras sayth he Paule doth forbid to eate with those that lyue dissolutely that perteyneth to priuate conuersation not to the publike Communion but some will saye if it be not lawfull for a Christian man to keepe company with him that is wicked for corporall meate much lesse may he receyue with them the Lords bread I answere that it is in our power whether we will be familiarly conuersant with the wicked or no and therefore euery one ought to flye from them But it is not so in our power to receyue the Communion or not to receyue it therefore the reason is not all one we must therfore note that if the Churche do tollerate and suffer an vnworthy man he shall do well that knowing him to be suche a one doth abstayne from his companie as muche as he can so that his dooing make no schisme or separation in the Churche This I speake onely touching the true vnderstanding of that place
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
watring the grounde with the droppes of his teares he asked forgiuenesse But this proueth not that the people had anie authoritie in excommunicating of him In this Church of Englande though the Bishop alone doe excommunicate Excommunicate persons not receyued before publike confession and repentance yet he that is excommunicated for any notorious cryme is not receyued into the Churche againe before he haue made a publike confession in the open Congregation and asked pardon and forgiuenesse of his offence Wherefore there is nothing yet alledged of any such force to proue that Ambrose alone did not excommunicate Theodosius Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision Admonition Act. 11. 30. Act. 15. 2. 4 ▪ 6. c. The sixtenth In that the Lord Bishops their Suffraganes Archdeacons Chauncelors Ro. 12. 7. 8 Phil. 1. 1. Officials Proctors Doctors Sumners and such rauening rablers take vppon them whiche is most horrible the rule of Gods Churche spoyling the Pastor (t) Mat. 18. 17. 18. of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer 1. Co. 12. 28 1. Thes. 5. 12 13. his owne flocke giuen by the worde thrusting away most sacrilegiously that order whiche Christ hath left to his Church and which the primitiue Church hath vsed 1. Tim. 4. 14 ▪ 1. Tim. 5. 17 Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 220. Sect. 1. And first you shewe yourselfe greatly offended that the Pastor is spoyled of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer his flocke therfore you brust out into these wordes of heat rauening rablers horrible sacrllegiously and such like It had bene well if you had tolde vs what that lawfull iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke giuen by the worde had beene For the places of Scripture which you quote for that purpose do not plainly enough set out that matter In the. 18. of Mathew vers 17. after certaine admonitions in priuate offences Christ sayth Dir Ecclesiae tell the Church In whiche place as I tolde you before the Church doth signifie such as haue authority in the Church or else publike reprehension in the open congregation by such as be called thereunto It giueth not any peculiar iurisdiction to the Pastor for any thing that I can learne And in the same Chapter 18. verse where Christ sayth vvhat soeuer ye binde on earth shall be bounde in heauen c. according to your iudgement vttered before it is ment of the whole Church and not of the Pastor onely You haue before denied that one man can excommunicate and therefore this place maketh nothing for your assertion T. C. Pag. 149. Lin. 21. In the. 220. and. 221. pages he speaketh of this thing afresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehearsall of the places of the Admonition asking after his accustomed maner of confuting what maketh this or what proueth that onely whereas he sayde before and proued as he thought that the Minister had onely to doe with excommunication beeing pressed there by the Admonition eyther to defende or renounce his Chauncelors c. He had rather denie both the truth and himselfe than he woulde haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by Poperie threatning the ouerthrowe of the whole Churche and seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and ydlenesse of a fewe to be driuen out of the Church Of the which I will vpon occasion speake a worde if first I shewe that the vse of the auncient Church hath beene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence thereof shoulde come from the gouernours and elders of the Church vnto whome that did especially apperteyne Although I cannot posse by that which maister Doctor sayeth that for so much as the Authours of the Admonition had alledged the wordes tell the Churche to proue the interest of the Churche in excommunication that therefore they coulde not vse the same to proue the interest of the Pastor as who shoulde say that the Pastor is not one of the Churche But of the absurditie of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and howe all men doe see the vanitie of this reason that bycause the people haue an interest by this place therefore the Pastor hath none Io. Whitgifte I do indéed speake of this matter there againe after a sort for I am driuen vnto it by the order of the Admonition But in all those words there by me vttered touching excōmunicatiō I do not once aske what maketh this or what maketh that as you charge me although I might iustly vse these kinde of questions as sufficient answeres to such vnskilfull quotations as they paint theyr margent with and somtimes indéed I make such demaundes but it is to shewe the fondnesse of their allegations I defende no Chauncelors c. that vsurpe any office wherevnto they be not lawfully called but I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confute them least thereby séeing the weaknesse of our reasons they be animated rather to procéede than perswaded to leaue of I doe not thinke that Chauncellours ought to excommunicate with this kinde of excommunication that wée talke of except they bée Ministers and so muche haue I vttered in my Answere but I will not disquiet the Church for it by séeking reformation extraordinarily neyther will I bée wilfull if I can heare any sounde reasons to remoue me from this perswasion wherfore you doe in this cause and in this place vniustly charge me The place in the eightéenth of Sainct Mathew is vnderstāded of those to whom the discipline of the Churche is by the authoritie of the Churche committed that is in this churche of Englande the Bishop And therfore that place can not proue that there is any iniurie done to the Pastor or that hée is spoyled of his lawful iurisdiction and this is the effect of my answere whereat you only cauill as your nature is I saye in déede that this place was before alleaged in the Admonition to proue that the whole Churche shoulde excommunicate and not one man onely and therefore I sée not howe the same place maye aptly bée alleadged to proue anye iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke séeyng it gyueth to the flocke equall iurisdiction with the Pastor and not to the Pastor any superioritie ouer them if the interpretation vsed in the Admonition be true Let the Reader consider the wordes of my Answere to the Admonition and trie whether there be any suche absurdities in them or no. Surely it is a fault both in you and the Admonitors to make the Scripture so pliable to your fansies and the same place to serue as many turnes as you lyst Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. past the middst But I come to shewe the vse of the primitiue Churche in this matter wherof we haue a manifeste This place of Tertullian is verie corruptly alleaged as will appeare ▪ testimonie in Tertullian If sayeth he there be any whiche haue committed suche a Tertull. in Apol.
39. c. saulte that he is to be put awaye from the partaking of the prayer of the churche and from all holie matters or affayres there doe beare rule or be presidentes certayne of the moste approued auncientes or elders which haue obteyned this honour not by money but by good reporte Io. Whitgifte Here you haue separated those things whiche Tertullian hath ioyned and you ioyne together in one sentence that whiche Tertullian hath separated for thus hée writeth And it is a greate argumente and example of the latter iudgement if any man Tertull. in Apolog cap. 39. hath so offended that hee is banished from the communication of prayer of companie and of all holie affaires Here Tertullian maketh a full poynte and beginning a newe sentence he sayth Approued seniors haue authoritie to rule which haue obteined this honour not by money but by a good reporte c. And these wordes be so distinguished from the other that B. Rhenanus placeth his commentarie betwixte them And yet you ioyne them with a péece of the former sentence whiche you haue also mangled and so make as though Tertullian shoulde saye that these Seniors didde excommunicate where as there can no suche matter be gathered of his wordes For there were other poyntes of Discipline for them to execute and other matters of gouernmente to looke vnto And he that shall well weigh the wordes of Tertullian shall perceyue that he meaneth by these approued elders none other but ministers whiche do gouerne the congregation when they come together to prayer and other holie actions the whole order wherof he dothe in that place describe But be it that they had to do also in excommunication which I will not denye for I did neuer so giue the authoritie of excommunicating to the Bishop alone that The Bishop may haue assistance ioyned with hym I thinke he may not haue other assistance ioyned vnto him for the execution of it if the order of the Churche so require yet this proueth not but that the Bishop maye excommunicate alone if that authoritie be giuen vnto hym by the order of the churche This place rather maketh agaynst you for fyrste it is lyke that these Seniors were ministers of the woorde and Sacramentes then it is certayne that the multitude hadde not to doe in the execution of thys Disciplyne whyche you laboure to prooue There canne no greate certaynetie bée gathered of this place whether one or moe did excommunicate excepte you will also conclude that Churchewardens and sydemen bycause they be officers to see good rule kept in the Churche haue interest in excommunications together wyth the Byshop Wherefore I doe requyre a more manyfeste proofe of you For thys place maye wyth more probabilitie be otherwyse expounded and therefore enforceth nothyng Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. tovvardes the ende And that the Auncientes had the ordering of these thyngs and the peoples consente was required and that if the case were a verie difficulte case it was referred vnto the Synodes or Councells and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of theyr owne authoritie to excommunicate and that those whych did receyue the excommunicate without the knowledge and consent Lib. 3. ep 8. 10. 14. 19. 1. lib. 3. ep of the churche were reprehended it maye appeare almoste in euerie page of Cyprians Epistles and namely in these whiche I haue noted in the margent Io. Whitgifte Thus you driue me to séeke that whyche in those Epistles by you quoted I can not fynde howe muche better dealing had it bin to haue sette downe the wordes of Cyprian that they myght haue ben viewed and considered In the. 8. Epistle of the thirde booke Cyprian doth fynde himselfe gréened with one Therapius bycause he gaue peace to one Uictor a Priest before he had shewed himselfe fully repentant and had satisfied for his offence before also the tyme was come appoynted vnto hym to make satisfaction lykewyse without the request and knowledge of the people Whereby it appeareth that Therapius did absolue Uictor before the tyme appointed and secretly withoute the knowledge of the people but this proueth not your purpose Therapius is iustly reproued for breaking the order appoynted by the Churche and for absoluyng Uictor before his tyme and in a corner without the knowledge of the people but this proueth not that the Byshoppe maye not excommunicate but the contrarie rather for Cyprian in the ende thoughte this absolution to be sufficiente as it appeareth in these wordes But weyghing the matter by long aduise it seemed sufficiente to chyde our fellowe Lib. 3. epi. 8. Therapius for that he didde this thyng vnaduisedlye and to haue instructed hym that hereafter he committe not the lyke But yet we thought not good to withdraw the peace whyche was once giuen howesoeuer of a Priest of God and for this cause wee haue permitted vnto Victor to vse the Communion deliuered vnto hym Whereby it is manyfeste that the absolution of Therapius was thoughte good and that he had authoritie to absolue alone but that it was done not according to the order then in the churche appointed In the tenth Epistle there is nothyng spoken of Excommunication or absolution Epist. 10. onely Cyprian sayeth that he made no answere to the Letters of Donatus and Nouatus and Gordius bycause at his fyrste entraunce into his Bishopryke hée had determined to doe nothing without their Councell meanyng the Priestes and Deacons to whome he writ and withoute the consente of the people What can you conclude hereof touchyng excommunication Cyprian here sheweth him selfe to haue iurisdiction ouer other Churches and authoritie ouer other Ministers and that he wyll doe nothing in doubtfull matters in theyr churches without the consent of the ministers and people But this is nothing toiuchng excōmunication neyther dothe it proue but that he myghte doe thynges without theyr consentes for why shoulde he else saye statui I haue determined signifying therby that it was in his power to do otherwyse if he woulde In the. 14. Epistle he reproueth certayne Priestes for receyuyng into the church Epist. 14. without the consent of their Bishop suche as had fallen in the tyme of persecution and that before they had any iust tryall of their repentance adding that none ought so to be receiued but Per manus impositionem Episcopi Cleri by the imposition of the handes of the Bishop and Cleargie I can not sée any thyng in this Epistle that giueth the people any interest in excommunicating or absoluyng But this is euidently to be collected out of it that no suche thyng ought to be doone withoute the authoritie of the Bishop In the. 19. Epistle he wryteth that he will not take vpon himselfe alone to restore Epist. 9. those to the Churche agayne who falling in the tyme of persecution were condemned by the iudgement of al the Cleargie I knowe not howe you wyll frame this to your purpose for who euer
churche is not able to fynde a Curate as he termeth hym and a Deacon I haue before shewed intreatyng of the Seniors that the churches in the Apostles tymes myght best haue sayd this beyng poore and persecuted although I see not why the churche may not haue a Deacon or Deacons if mo be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors Io. Whitgifte It is the Admonition that sayeth Euery paryshe cannot be at that caste to haue bothe Wherevpon I doe but aske this question why they require them both in euery paryshe if euerye paryshe cannot bee at the coste to haue them both Bylike you make small accompte of the Admonition in that you read it not or else you haue forgotten that this question is demaunded vpon their confession But in deede I am of that opinion too and haue before answered your obiection of the Churches in the Apostles tymes as for our Collectors they be suche as put not the Churche to one halfepenye charge so could not your Deacons do Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision Admonition For they (u) Pontifi tit The ordring of deacons may baptise in the presence of a Byshop or priest or in their absence if necessitie so requyre minister the other Sacrament lykewyse reade the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation instructe the youth in the Catechisme and also preache if he be commaunded by the Byshop Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I knowe not what you meane by your Ponti tit in the margent of your booke but if you meane the booke entituled the forme and māner of making and consecrating Byshops c. nowe allowed in this Churche of Englande then do you vntruely reporte it for there is no mention of baptising in the presence of a Bishop or Priest neyther yet of ministring the other Sacramente in their absence if necessitie require onely the booke sayeth that a Deacon may baptise or preache if he be thervnto admitted by the Byshop and that he may so doe by the worde of God I haue proued before As for reading the holye Scriptures and Homelies in the Congregation also for instructing the youth in the Catechisme who doubteth but that a Deacon may doe them Admonition The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministerie nor the Collectours for the poore may not vsurpe the Deacons office but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must looke to his office and euery man must keepe hymselfe within the bondes and limites of his owne vocation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither doe we confounde them and yet Paule in the place by you quoted in the margent speaketh not one worde of confounding or not confounding these offices So the poore be prouided for it forceth not whether prouision be made by Deacons or by Collectours by the one it may be well done by the other it cannot be done in all places as the state is nowe But shew any Scripture to proue that the poore must onely be prouided for by Deacons else not Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this ¶ Of the offices of Widowes and their continuance Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remayneth to speake of the Widowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of three score yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill whiche myght ryse y sclaunderous tongues it they had bene yonger These as they were nouryshed at the charges of the churche being poore so did they serue the churche in attending vpon poore straungers and the poore whiche were sicke in the churche whereof they were widowes (*) This will not agree with the doctrine you taught before Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great vse of these widowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein this order of widowes was instituted parte of the whiche necessitie grewe both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution and by the great heare of those easte countryes wherevpon the washing and supplyng of their feete was required yet to so muche as there are poore which are sicke in euery churche I do not see howe a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendaunce of them in their syckenesse and other infirmities than this which sainct Paule apoynteth that there should be if there can bee any gotten godly poore widowes of y e age which S. Paule apointeth which should attend vpon such For it there be any such poore wydowes of that age destitute of all frendes it is manifest that she must needes iyue of the charge of the churche and seing she must needes doe so it is better she should doe some duty for it vnto the churche agayne than the churche should be at a newe charge to fynde others to attende vpon those which are sycke and destitute of kepers seing that there can be none so fitte for that purpose as those women which saynt Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that (*) This condition cānot agree with so precise cōmaundement as you haue made it before if such may be gotten we ought also to keepe that order of widowes in the churche styll I knowe that there be learned men which thinke otherwyse but I stande vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vpon the opinions of men be they neuer so wel learned and if the matter also should be tried by the iudgement of men I am able to shewe the iudgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widowes is perpetuall and ought to bee where it may be had and where such widowes are founde Indeede they are more rare nowe than in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those whiche had the gifte of continencie did abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were dryuen to flye than the estate of those which were maryed Io. Whitgifte Here you are taken in your owne trappe and fayne you would wrynge your The Replie tripped and caught in his owne nette Pag. 141. selfe out if you could tell which waye for if all thinges conteyned in S. Paule his first Epistle to Timothie bee perpetuall and must be kept vnder the great charge that be gaue vnto Timothie in the sixt chapter as you haue before affirmed then of necessitie the churche must needes still reteyne wydowes You knowe not in the worlde howe to auoyde this absurditie and therefore some tymes you saye that nowe there is not so great vse of them with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded c. and by and by you beginne to call that backe and saye that you do not see howe a better and more conuenient
his appoyntment himselfe sitting as moderator and this was in a matter of fayth But be it as you say though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Councelles therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion for as I sayde before it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche or Ecclesiasticall Lawes for euen those orders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels were made by the authoritie of the Emperour as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops brust out into these voyces It is a true and a right iudgement long lyfe to the Senate many Conc. Chalced ▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. yeares to the Emperour Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose who woulde by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or Another reason of the Papists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate courte but would haue them handled in the Churche by those that had the gouernment of the Churche and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte he came not Io. Whitgifte This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters and he vsed it against the Apologie but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie by that reuerende Father 6. Parte 14. Chap. 5. Diuision the Bishop of Sarisburie is learned and true the summe whereof is this The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him was very yong he was not yet baptized he knewe not the principles of Christes Why Ambrose refused to come at the Emperours commaundement Religion he was an Arian Heretike he woulde haue thruste out the Christians and placed Heretikes in their Churches he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indifferent And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle you might haue perceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense and excuse for not appearing the decrée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers haue committed the The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Emperours deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour sayeth thus VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie may haue the hearyng of the same matter before whome we may open both our churches right and also our owne for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons will Athanasius Apol. 2. neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes August contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. sayeth Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour why made they him iudge of their cause Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East and ten of the VVeste chosen by the Councell shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops best learned to appeare before him and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion the which being done at a day appointed they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour who after earnest praiers made perusing the writings that were deliuered rent in pieces the confessions made by the Arians and Eunomians and allowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. vlt. And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers bycause they are best able to iudge An other argu ment of the Papistes to the same purpose of the learning and abilitie of those which are the fittest it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and orders as perteyne to the churche for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters bestowing their studies that wayes and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied Io. Whitgifte This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops doth not derogate from the princes authoritie whyle they he learned and godly may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges lawyers so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
must also be referred to the Reader who may coniecture that you haue litle to say against any thing that I haue in this parte affirmed Out of the second treatise called A view of Popishe abuses remayning Fol. 10. pag. 1 lin 33. Reading of seruice or Homilies in the church is as euil as playing on a stage and worse too You say that this is falsified Lord God what meane you In the seconde leafe of that booke these be their direct wordes Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too To the same effect they speake diuers times so do the Authors of the second Admonition Surely eyther they are ashamed of their doings or else you haue not with diligence read their bookes Thus briefly to haue answered to your vniust accusation of falsly collecting certain articles out of the booke entituled An Admonition c. shall be sufficient Other articles which you say be gathered out of the same booke and confesse to be true I haue omitted bicause they be sufficiently answered by me in the confutation and your confirmation of them is vsuall and childishe I woulde wishe that suche as bee wyse men and in authoritie would diligently consider that whiche you answere to the Article Fol 14. as you quote it touching the gouernment of the Churche and the authoritie of Princes and their lawes and likewyse that whiche is written concerning the same matters in the seconde Admonition I will make them neyther better nor worse but wishe the Magistrates well to marke your iudgements and opinions in these matters and to foresee the worst The Lorde blesse this Realme of Englande with the continuance of his Gospell long life of the Queenes maiestie and peace bothe foreyne and domesticall Amen Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered ¶ A viewe of the seconde Admonition T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. vlt. In the viewe of the second admonition M. Doctor doth as it seemeth of purpose cul out those things which he hath spoken on before and in repeating of them referreth his Reader vnto hys booke Diuers other matters there are of great weight which he speaketh not of if he doe approue them (*) Why haue you not done so your selfe 〈◊〉 your Replie ▪ it had beene well he had sign fyed his liking if he doe not that he had confuted them And if he trauelled so heauily of bringing foorth of this booke that it was as heauy a burden vnto hym as Salomon sayth a fond worde is vnto an vnwyse man he might haue taken day to answere it Now by this slēder answering or rather not answering at al but only asking how this that is proued wheras beeing proued it is vnreproued of him he doth his cause more harme than he is aware of For vnlesse his profes he ioyned with his expulsions imprisonmēts with all that racket which he maketh in Cambridge to the vtter most of that his authoritie will stretch vnto he may be well assured that their driuing out wyll drawe in the truthe and their imprisonment wyll set the truthe at greater libertie and thereby proue it self to be neyther Papistrie nor Anabaptistrie Donatistrie Catharisme nor any other heresie whych are by due correction repressed But as for the truthe of God the more it is laden the strayghter it standeth and the more it is kepte vnder the more it euforceth it selfe to ryse and wyll vndoubtedly get vp howe great so euer the stone be whyche is layde vpon it Io. Whitgifte I haue omitted no matter of substance vnanswered in eyther of the Admonitions The wordes you héere vtter be contumelious you onely rayle you answere not I neuer expelled any of degrée since my first comming to Trinitie Colledge but two the one for pertinacie the other for periurie And yet I might haue done lawfully and iustly and intende to doe if the statutes wherevnto I haue sworne doe therevnto enforce me But by your often obiecting this vnto me men may vnderstande what conscience it is that makes you so zealous and what diuinitie it is that you so carnestly professe scil a minde full of reuengment and a face puffed vp with arrogancie and vayneglory A briefe viewe of the seconde Admonition I haue also receyued a seconde Admonition to the Parliament the author whereof vndertaketh to teache howe to reforme those things whiche the other Admonition founde faulte with I shall not neede to make any long discourse of it neyther will I. The answere to the fyrst admonition is an answere to this also Onely I thought it good to note vnto you that this booke consisteth of these poynts especially first it iustifieth the authors of the first Admonition and seemeth to complayne that they haue not iustice bicause they appealyng to the highest Court of Parliament their appeale would not be receyued And therefore they say the Scripture is playne that it shall be easier for Sodome and Gomorra in the daye of iudgement ▪ than for suche a court meaning the court of Parliament and they quote for that purpose in the margent the. 10. of Matth verse 14. 15. which is a shamefull prophanation of the Scripture and an egregious slaunder to that honorable courte The iustnesse of the appeale I leaue to the Iustices and skilfull Lawyers to be considered of for it is not within the compasse of my facultie Onely I thinke that that scroule can haue no defense of Parliament first bicause it is a Libell secondly bicause it was published in printe before the Parliament was made priuie vnto it Io. Whitgifte Not one worde sayde agaynst this ¶ A viewe of the seconde Admonition In this parte these wordes of theirs would be well considered Politike Ma cheuils there is no other thing to be looked for than some speedie vengeance to lighte vpon the whole lande prouide as well as the politike Macheuils of Englande thinke they can though God doe his worste It woulde be knowne whome they meane by these politike Macheuils for they enuy all men of great authoritie witte and pollicie T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 1. 2. And albeit he had no leysure to answere the matters whiche required his answere yet he carpeth at by matters and asketh who are ment by the politike Macheuils What if they meane (*) This is a clake but their words will not heare it M. Doctor and such other which vnder the pretence of policie would ouerthrowe the Churche and that by those things whych haue scarse a shew of policie and in deede ouerturne the policie and gouernment of the Lorde And I pray you tell me M. Doctor who be those superiours which contemne hate discourage and frumpe those whiche execute the lawes of the Realme of the whiche you speake in the. 88. page And where you adde by and by that they enuye all men of great authoritie witte and pollicie I haue answered this speeche before And truely I thinke there is not in Mesheke so slaunderous a tongue to be founde as this
Archbishop dyd with their factiousnesse trouble the Church Whiche words I added to declare how vntruely the Papistes doe abuse that place of Cyprian to proue the Popes authoritie ouer all the Churches when he onely speaketh of the authoritie of an Archbishop or Bishop in his owne prouince or dioces True it is that Cyprian doth not speake of the authoritie of the Byshop of Rome ouer all Churches but of the authoritie that Cornelius then Bishop of Rome or Cyprian himselfe had in his owne prouince neither wil any denie this but Papists Now to peruert this my plaine meaning and to father on me whether I will or no this argumente he speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome and therfore of an Archbishop argueth a mynd disposed to con and a stomacke desirous rather to deface the person than to giue care to the matter T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 9. And in the. 71. pag. * Other vntruthe ▪ There must be superiours Ergo one minister must be superiour vnto an other There must be degrees therefore there must be one Archbishop ouer a prouince Io. Whitgifte There are no such reasons those that be in that place alleaged are onely out of Hierome and Chrisostome and of greater force than wil be truely answered T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 10. And in the. 73. there was one ouer euery congregation therefore there was one ouer all the ministers Another vntruth in the prouince These and a number like vnto these M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his booke which as Nero sayd of his maister Senecas workes cleaue together like sand and thus let it be seene whose argumentes are most iustly concluded those of the Admonition or these of M. Doctors Io. Whitgifte It is a shame to lye of the deuill Where finde you in all that page any such argument or similitude of it but surely you haue done me a great pleasure who searching my booke so diligently for arguments to quit the Admonition haue not founde one but most vainely and vntruely fained those to be which be not Truly I do not think my selfe in euery circumstance to be so circumspecte but that I may minister sometime matter to a quarreller howebeit as yet you haue not founde any thing for your purpose And I shall most hartily desire the reader to iudge of the rest of your doyngs euen according to these beginnings An Exhortation to such as be in authoritie and haue the gouernment of the Church committed vnto them whether they be Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall Magistrates Io. Whitgifte COnsidering the strangenesse of the time the varietie of mens mindes and the maruellous inclinations in the common sort of persons especially where the Gospel is most preached to imbrace newe inuented doctrines and opiniōs though they tende to the disturbing of the quiet state of the Church the discrediting and defacing of such as be in authoritie and the mainteining of licenciousnesse and lewde libertie I thought it good to set before your eyes the practises of the Anabaptistes their conditions and qualities the kinde and manner of their beginnings and proceedings before the broching of their manifolde and horrible heresies to the intent that you vnderstanding the same may the rather in time take heede to such as proceede in like maner least they being suffred too long brust out to worke the same effect I accuse none onely I suspect the authors of this Admonition and their fautours what cause I haue so to do I refer to your selues to iudge after that I haue set forth vnto you the Anabaptisticall practises euen as I haue learned in the writings of suche famous and learned men as had themselues experience of them when they first began in Germanie and did both personally reason with them and afterwardes very learnedly write against them neither will I in this point write one word which I haue not my author to shew for An answere to the Exhortation to the ciuill Magistrates T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 1. IT is more than I thought could haue happened vnto you once to admitte into your minde this opinion of Anabaptisme of your brethren which haue alwayes had it in as great detestation as your selfe preached against it as much as your selfe hated of the folowers and fauourers of it as much as your selfe And it is yet more strange that you haue not doubted to giue out such slaunderous reportes of them but dare to present such accusations to the holy and sacred seate of iustice and therby so much as in you lyeth to corrupt it to call for the sword vpon the innocent which Bigge wordes is giuen for their maintenance and safetie that as it is a boldnesse vntollerable so coulde I hardly haue thought that it could haue fallen into any that had caried but the countenance and name of a professor of the Gospell much lesse of a Doctor of diuinitie Before you will ioyne with vs in this cause you will place vs whether we will or no in the campe of the Anabaptistes to the ende you might therby both withdraw al frō aiding vs which are godly minded as for that you fearing as it seemeth the insufficiencie of your pen might haue the sworde to supply your want other wayes And if we be founde in their campe or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the Church efacers of such as be in authoritie mainteyners of licenciousnes lewde libertie as you do seeme to charge vs with we refuse not to go vnder those punishments that some of that wicked sect receiued for iust recompence of their demerites You say you will not accuse any (a) A charitable iudgement and yet before he reproued the l ke I know it is for want of no good will that you do not accuse them of whose condemnation extreme punishment we might be sure if your hand were as strong as your harte But you suspect the authors of the Admonition and their fautors * Charitie is not suspitious Let vs therefore see whether there be iuste 1. Cor. 13. 5. matter to beare out and to vphold this suspition You will beare men in hand that if we be not alreadie full Anabaptists yet we are in the way thither the fotesteps wherby you trace vs must be considered Io. Whitgifte There is no cause why you should so maruaile at the matter all things well considered neither do I thinke that the Anabaptistes do so greatly detest and hate them as you woulde make vs beleue I do not accuse them of the doctrine of Anabaptisme as you your selfe in the ende of this section do acknowledge but I declare that I greatly suspect them bicause they come so neare vnto the qualities and practises of the Anabaptistes and vse the same beginnings whether this my suspition be true or no I referre it to the iudgement of others If the reportes be slaunderous let them take their lawfull remedie against me but if they be most manifest then it is conuenient that the Magistrates haue
habeatque per se omnia secundum praesentem domini cohortationem Bycause a godlie Magistrate doth altogether serue and not beare rule and hath by himself all things agreeable to this present exhortation of the Lord. Thus you sée Bucers iudgemente vppon these wordes of Christe Chap. I. seconde Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 14. lin 11. And it is the common opinion of all writers that these words of Christe doe not condemne superioritie Lordeship or any suche like authoritie but the ambitious desire of the same and the tyrannicall vsage therof T. C. Pag. 11. Sect. 3. 4. Agaynst this is sayde that the places doe nothing else but condemne ambitious desire and tyrannicall vsage of authoritie and doth not barre the ministers of these things The Bishop of Salis burie so allegeth this place in his defēse of the Apologie against M. H ding pag. 65 Then belyke all those godly and learned men whiche haue vsed these places to proue that the Pope whiche professeth himselfe to be an Ecclesiastical person ought not to haue the ciuil sword nor to vsurpe vnto himselfe suche glorious pompe haue abused them For you teache hym howe he shoulde answere that there is nothing forbidden but ambition and tyrannie and in dede this is the answere of all the Papistes to that obiection Io. Whitgifte Those godlie and learned men whiche haue vsed these places agaynste the Pope These places are rightly vsed against the Pope notwithstanding this interpretation haue rightly vsed them and if it had pleased you you might haue vnderstode that in the verie next leafe folowing I say that these places may be aptly alleaged against the pryde tyrannie ambition of the Bishop of Rome which seeketh tyrannically to rule and not to profit but not against the laufull authoritie in any state of men They therefore alledge it truly The Popes dominion such as Christ here forbiddeth and yet you vntruly expounde it for the Popes dominion is suche as is in this place forbidden that is vsurped and tyrannicall bicause he hath not onely entred into the spirituall kingdome of Christe and sought to reigne in mennes consciences but also pulleth from Princes the power of earthly dominion saying that he hath that immediatly from God and the Emperours and Princes immediatly from him And so doe the learned expounde this place and it is their answere to the obiection of the Anabaptistes I fully agrée with my L. of Salisburie his allegation of this place for Bishops may not be kings nor haue any such ciuill dominion as the Pope claymeth and vsurpeth Chap. I. Diuision 3. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 14. Sect. 1. Pag. 15. Sect. 1. 2. Musculus expounding these places sayth in this sorte VVho so Musculus euer vvill be great among you c. He saith not no man ought to be chiefe among you vvhich he should haue said if it had not bin lawful in the kingdome of God for some to be great and chief or if it had bin necessarie that all should haue bene in all things equal the Celestial spirits are not equall the Starres be not equall the Apostles themselues vvere not equall Peter is founde in many places to haue bene chiefe among the rest vvhich vve do not denie Therfore this is not Christes meaning to haue none greate or chief among Christians seing the verie necessitie of our state requireth that some be superiours and betters so farre is it from being repugnant to charitie In a common vveale it is necessarie that some should excell other so is it in a vvell ordered familie In like maner there must be in the Churche gouernours presidentes rulers of vvhome Paule maketh mention Ro. 12. 1. Co. 12. Heb. 13 as ther is also in the bodie some principal mēbers some inferiour c. Therfore Christ doth not require that in his kingdom all should be equall but this he doth require that none should desire to bee great or to be thought and counted chiefe Hitherto Musculus Which interpretation must needes be true else we may saye that Christ in this place reiecteth and disalloweth the Princes and Magistrates of the Gentiles and also forbiddeth the same among Christians which is false and Anabaptisticall Likewise the same Musculus saith that Christ teacheth in thys place what he ought to be indeede that desireth to beare rule ouer other to witte that he ought to be a seruāt to other that is as he doth interpret it to profite other and to serue for the commoditie of other for though the name of a prince and of a Lord be a name of honoure and dignitie yet is it the office of a Prince and Lord to serue those which be vnder them in gouerning of them carefully and in prouiding for their welth and peace T. C. Page 11. Sect. 5. 6. But Musculus a learned man is of that iudgement * This is a simple answer to oppose one 〈◊〉 authoritie against another And master Caluine as learned as he and diuers other are of that iudgement that I haue alleadged this is no great proofe on your side nor reproofe of ours let vs therfore see the reasons wherwith this expositiō is warrāted (a) A false collectiō vpon master Musculus hys words Musculus reason is this that if he should haue inent that the Apostles should haue bin equall and none greater than an other then there should be equalitie of all and none should haue authoritie ouer other And so there should be no degrees of the Prince and subiect in the common welth of master and seruant in a family of people and minister in the Church But it is no good reason to say there is nor ought to be any inequalitie amongst the Apostls therfore there is none nor ought to be none at all Or to say there is no inequalitie amongst the pastors therefore there is no inequalitie betwene the pastours and the people For as the common wealthes and families and Churches are preserued by inequalitie and in that some are higher and some are lower some rule and some obey so are the same likewise preserued by equalitie of certaine amongst themselues as albeit the (b) Ministers may haue dominion ouer the people but one of them must not be aboue another 1. they may rule but not be ruled Consuls in Rome were aboue other officers and the people yet were they equall betweene themselues (c) Examples against himselfe And although it be the preseruation of the familie that the master should be aboue the seruant and the father aboue the sonne yet it tendeth also to the quiet of the house that the seruants amongst themselues and the brethren amōgst themselues should be equall And so we graūt that for the preseruation of the Church it is necessarie that there be some should beare rule and other should be vnder their rule but I denie that thereof followeth that one minister should beare rule ouer another Whereas master Musculus
our saluation then must we be bounde vpon necessitie of saluation to obserue the whole Ceremoniall law which was the commaundement of God What was the commaundement vnto Abraham to offer his sonne Isahac Genes 22. vnto the Israelites to robbe the Egyptians vnto Moses to put off his shoes vnto Exod. 11. Saule to kill Amalech and infinite other needefull for our saluation is the commaundement Exod. 3. of the Apostles to abstayne from bloud and that whiche is strangled or of 1 Sam. 15. Paule vnto Timothie to drinke wine c. needefull for our saluation What a torment Act. 15. is this doctrine able to bring vnto a weake conscience whiche hathe not obserued 1. Tim. 5. any one of these You muste therefore vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of commaundementes of God and of the Apostles some generall and giuen to all other Diuerskinds of commaundements personall and pertayne onely to one singular person or to one nation and kinde of people c. Agayn there are some which are perpetual not to be omitted or altered other which are temporall and may be omitted or altered as the circūstance of time place persons doth require Wherby it may appeare howe grossely you haue erred in affirming that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for oure saluation I might in more ample maner prosecute this matter but this that hathe bin spoken may suffice What I haue sayde of chaunging the Lordes day and howe you haue satisfied my wordes is declared before and so is the answere made likewise vnto this your féeble conclusion grounded vpon a falie principle Which of vs two is caried furthest by his affections let the indifferēt reader iudge by these and suche other like dealings of yours I haue tolde you before howe muche this and the other places of S. Augustine maketh for my purpose whiche you can not but vnderstande if you soughte not corners to creepe into for the auoyding of suche reasons and authorities as be moste apte for my purpose Things whiche the Apostles haue done for vs to followe without any exception may not be violated but the question is whether these things whiche they haue done and written be sufficient for the ordering and gouernment of all Churches in all times and states or no. And whether in all things that they haue done we may or oughte to follow them both which you haue hitherto very slenderly touched Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. And agayne Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bonos more 's iniungitur indifferenter est habendum pro eorum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est That vvhich is enioyned being neither agaynst fayth nor good maners is to be counted indifferent and to be obserued as the societie of those vvith vvhome vve lyne requiteth In the same Epistle answering this question whether vpon the Thursday before Easter the Lordes supper shoulde be celebrated in the morning or at nighte because Christe dyd institute this Sacrament and deliuer the same to hys Disciples after supper he gyueth these three rules worthy to be noted the first is this If the holy Scripture prescribe any thing to be done there is no doubte but that muste be obserued as it is there prescribed The seconde is this That if any thing be vniuersally obserued of the vvhole Churche not repugnant to the Scriptures for so he meaneth not to keepe that or to reason of that is madnesse The thirde If it be not vniuersally obserued but diuersly in diuers Churches Faciat quisque quod in ea ecclesia in quā venit inuenerit Let euery man do as he findeth in that Churche into the vvhiche he commeth modònon sit contra fidem aut contra mores So that it be not agaynst faythe or good maners for so he addeth In the same Epistle agayne he sayth that the Lorde hath not in Scripture declared in what order and maner his Supper shoulde be celebrated but lefte that to his Disciples And in his hundreth and nintenth ad Ianuar. In those things sayth he that be diuersly obserued in diuers places this rule as moste profitable is to be kepte that those things vvhich be not agaynst faythe neither good maners and make something to exhorte vnto a better life vvheresoeuer they are instituted vve ought not onely not to disallovve them but to prayse them and to follovv them By all these places of this learned father it is euident that it hathe beene receyued from time to time as a certayne truthe that the Church of Christ hath authoritie to ordayne and constitute as shall be necessarie in those things before of me rehearsed For a further proofe heereof I coulde alleage that auncient and learned father Iustinus Martyr in his seconde Apologie pro Iustinus Martyr Christianis and in his booke of questions Tertullian in his booke Decorona militis Basill also in his 63. Epistle writtē to the ministers of Neocaesaria Tertul. Eusebius Lib. 5. Ecclesiasti histor Cap. 25. 26. and diuers other but I omit Basil. them for breuitie sake neither doe I alleage those learned fathers Euseb. because I thinke their authoritie any thing at all preuayleth with the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned whose humilitie and wysdome wyll not suffer them to despise the iudgements of so learned and godly fathers T. C. Pag. 18. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Pag. 19. Sect. 1. As for that rule that he giueth when he say the what so euer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receyue them with his owne interpretation whiche he hathe afterwarde in 119. Epist. ad Ianuarium whiche is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules which you say are worthy to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whitte for I knowe no man that euer denied but that the Church may in suche thinges as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules which I haue before alleaged out of S. Paule And as for the seconde of the three rules I can not at any hande allowe it for when all Christianitie was ouerrunne with poperie thinges were vniuersally obserued whiche to keepe were meere wickednesse and this strengtheneth the Papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your Glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not inough because it muste be grounded by the Scripture and that it is wicked to giue suche authoritie to any decree of men that a man shoulde not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he mente nothing lesse For affirming that suche thinges are the Apostles commaundementes his meaning was that they shoulde be without all exception receyued and absolutely 〈◊〉 muche better is it that wee take heede to
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
you shall Euseb. Zuinglius find that the Apostles did appoint and ordeyne Iames to be Byshop of Nierusalem But I will not now stand vpon this matter I shal haue more occasion to speake of it hereafter in the meane time this whiche I haue saide is sufficient to satisfie your request for the Apostles time Touching that of Luke that it was done Church by Church if you meane the ordering of ministers by Paule and Barnabas it is answered before where I haue shewed that it maketh againste you if you vnderstande by euery Church those Churches where Paule and Barnabas were togither then do you expound Church by Church well else not But this is not materiall Election of ministers by the people not generall in th 〈◊〉 of Cyprian Now that the electing of ministers by the people was not generall in Cyprians time I proue by Cyprians owne words li. 1. epist. 4. where he speaking of electing by the people saith quod apud nos quoque ferè per prouincias vniuersas tenetur which also is obserued with vs and almost throughout all prouinces c. In that he saith it was almost in euery prouince he playnly signifyeth that there were some prouinces wherein this Cyprian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. manner and forme of electing was not vsed When I say that the consente of the people was required in many places euen to Cyprians time I do not denie but that it was also required after Cyprians time neither do I speake any otherwise in that poynt than Musculus Musculus hath spoken in his common places ti de verbi ministris where he saithe thus haec forma electionis ad Cypriani vsquè tempora in ecclesijs durauit c. This forme of election remayned in the Churches vntill Cyprians time I knowe it was both before and after Cyprians time in many places but that is not the question for it partly is and shall more at large hereafter be declared that it was also otherwise both before and after Cyprians time but our question is whether it ought to be so at all times or no at this time especially in this Church of England You say it appeareth that Cyprian in his 4. epistl of his 1. Booke vseth it not as a thing indifferente c. Surely if Cyprians wordes be well considered you will be founde not The place of 〈◊〉 examined to haue reported truly of him for he with other Bishops answering the 〈◊〉 that was demaunded of them touching Martialis and Basilides whether seeing they were conuicted of heynous crimes they might still enioy their office and minister vnto the Lord first declareth out of Exod. 19. Leui. 21. c. of what integritie and holynesse those ought to be that serue the altar and celebrate diuine sacrifices Likewise they shew that such precepts must be obeyed and héede taken that none be chosen into the ministerie but suche as be blamelesse signifying by the way how greatly that people doth offend that doth communicate with a sinfull priest and consenteth to the vniust and vnlawfull office of him that is placed ouer them shewing out of the Prophet Osee and the booke of numbers what punishment is due vnto them that be contaminated with the sacrifice of a prophane and vnlawfull priest where vpon he bringeth in these words propter quod plebs obseque s praeceptis dominicis deum metuens a peccatore praeposito separare se debet nec se ad sacrilegi sacerdotis sacrificia miscere cum ipsa maximè habeat potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi Quod ipsum videmus de diuina authoritate discendere vt sacerdos plebe praesente sub omnium oculis deligatur dignus atquè idoneus publico iudicio ac testimonio comprobetur c. For which cause the people obeying the commaundementes of the Lorde and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a wicked gouernoure not to cōmunicate in the sacrifices of a wicked priest for so much as they especially haue authoritie either to choose those priests which be worthy or else to refuse them which are vnwoorthy The whiche thing also we see to proceede of the authoritie of God that the priest should be chosen before the face of all the people being present and that he which is sit and worthy should by the publique iudgement and testimonie be approued as the Lord commaunded Moses in the booke of numbers saying take Aaron thy brother and Eleazer his sonne for Aaron shall be gathered to his fathers and shall dye there God commaunded the priest to be appointed before the whole sinagogue that is he declareth that the ordering of priests ought not to be but sub populi 〈◊〉 is conscientia by the knowledge of the people standing by that the people being present vel detegātur malorum crimina vel bonorum merita praedicentur c. either the faults of euil mē might be bewrayed or the desertes of those whiche are good might be commended and that that ordering might be iust and lawfull which shall be examined by the voices and iudgement of all VVhich thing was afterward obserued according to the rule of God when as Peter spake vnto the people concerning the choosing of a bishop into the place of Iudas Where the words of Cyprian and the other Bishops be plaine that the ordering of ministers ought to be in the presence of the people to the intent they may obiect any thing against them if they can but not that it ought to be by their voyces and election the which the example that he vseth of Eleazer Num. 20. and the words that he reciteth out of the first of the Acts plainly declare for though Eleazer was placed in Aarons roome in the presence of the people yet had they no voyces in hys election No more had they in the election of Matthias though it were in theyr presence That also whiche followeth in the same epistle dothe proue this to be their true meaning for alittle after it is said propter quod diligenter de traditione diuina c. VVherfore it ought diligently to be obserued and holden as proceeding from the tradition of God and the obseruation of the Apostles the which also is reteyned almost thoroughout all prouinces that to the intent orders should be rightly celebrated all the next Byshops of the same prouince should assemble vnto that people to whome a gouernoure is to be appointed and that the Byshop should be chosen in the presence of the people which dothe fully know the life of euery one c. so that Cyprians meaning is to haue the people present at the ordering of ministers that if they know any crime in them they may obiect it if not with their silence allow of the parties for as the law saith ta iturnitas pro consensu habetur silence is taken for a consent And to this purpose serue the places that he vseth Numer 20. Act. 1. and
temper hys sermon or exhortation that it may profyte all and hurte none but suche as do not accordingly receyue it And therefore bothe these propositions are false th a man by preaching cannot profyte such as he knoweth not and that he cannot know them except he be perpetually resident with them Chap. 1. the sixte Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. Moreouer as in the law the priests were ready in the temple to answer to al the doubts questions that any of the people should come to aske so the ministers in their seuerall parishes shoulde be ready to dissolue the difficulties that eyther one hathe with another or with himselfe touching the conscience for want whereof the consciences of many after doubtfull and daungerous wrastling with the deuill and wich dispaire are strangled And therevpon some hang or drowne themselues some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning and labouring to haue no sense nor feeling of their sinne close vp the wounde vnhealed which after eyther breaketh out more daungerously or else euery day more and more waxing senselesse and withoute feeling treasure vp vnto themselues the wrath of God against the day of iudgement For although the iudgement of God doth not for the time follow them so hard as them which through terroure of conscience vntaught and vncomforted kill themselues yet their estate is neuer the lesse daungerous therefore but rather more for asmuch as by a longer line of sinne drawne out they also pull vpon themselues a heauier conde nation Which things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it it is easy to iudge that it commeth to passe a great deale oftner than we can see Io. Whitgifte You do not referre me to any place where I might reade that the priests in the lawe were ready in the temple to answere all the doubts and questions that any of the people shoulde come to aske c. And I do not remember any suche place in the scripture excepte you meane that which is written in the. 17. of Deute verse 9. c. where there is no suche Deute 17. attendance mentioned but only the people are willed to bring their controuersies to the priests and the iudge If you meane the. 12. verse of that Chap. where it is said of the priest that he standeth before the Lord to minister there you haue also missed the quisshion For the meaning of that place is that whosoeuer presumptuously refuseth to harken vnto the Priest so long as the prieste is the true minister of God and pronounceth according to his word shall die c. The priest here had to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters togither with the iudge the priest was but in the chéefe place where iudgement was heard and not in euery particular congregation Wherfore if you would conclude any thing of this place it must be that the Priest must be ioyned with the Iudge and haue to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters and remaine in some chiefe place of the countrie where iudgements are to be heard You can by no meanes hereof conclude that euery particular congregation should haue a Pastor continually remayning with them There is not now any such general ignorance but that there may diuers be found able to answer all such doubts as you speake of sufficiently though the Pastor be absent The scriptures also are publikely red in euery mans house whiche are as Saint Paule saith 2. Ti. 3. profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousenes 2. Tim. 3. that the man of God may be absolute being made perfect in all good works and as Chrysostome calleth them they be an apothecarie his shoppe where euery man may finde In. 3. Coll. remedy for his diseases Moreouer the sufficiencie of his curate may be suche that he shall be aswell able to answere all suche questions as if he himselfe were present Neyther are those cases you put vsuall God be thanked and they oftentimes happen where there is leaste cause to complaine of any absence of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. When as therefore the only preaching of the word of God being continuall is a bond strong enough to hold the Pastor to his flocke then the enquirie of the maners behauioure of his flocke the priuate admonitions and consolations the dissoluing of doubts when any riseth as a three or foure fould cord ought much more to hold hym so that he which shall breake all these things willingly and wittingly cannot easily be thought to breake them as Sampson did his by the strength of God but rather by some other power not of God Io. Whitgifte I would not haue any man to thinke that I take vpon me to maintaine carelesse Care 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be not defended slouthful pastors I speake only of such as be vigilant occupie themselues profitably in the Church visite their seueral flockes teach them to the satisfying both of the parishes and of their owne consciences also such I am persuaded may do as much in al those points here by you mentioned to the commoditie of their flocke being somtimes absent as if they were continually present besides the good they may do to the whole Church generally wherof they are also members and Ministers But I muse with what face you can thus seke to deface true pastors that do good in Some 〈◊〉 delight to face good 〈◊〉 that doe 〈◊〉 good the ues the Church though not so much as you thinke they should do seing you your self and a number mo do no good at all in any place but only range vp downe liue at other mens tables disturbe the Church thinke that you haue done your duties when you haue defaced all other mens doings I am verily persuaded that he which preacheth at his cure but one sermon in a yeare offendeth God lesse than you doe that haue forsaken your calling Chap. 1. the eyght Diuision T. C. Pag. 48. Sect. 1. Besides that S. Paul commaundeth that the pastor should be a paterne or example in al goodnesse 1. Tim. 4. holinesse of life vnto his flocke our sauiour Christ saith that when the she harde hath 〈◊〉 Iohn 10. forth his sheepe he goeth before them but if the Pastor be not amongst his flocke ▪ and haue not his conuersation there they can not follow him If they haue not the example before their eyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not make the like vnto it Therfore this commaundement also bindeth them to residencie amongst their flockes S. Peter willeth the Pastors of the Churches that they shoulde feede the flockes What flockes Not euery one but those which are committed to their faith or trust or which dependeth vpon them And S. Paule speaking to y e ministers or Bishops of Ephesus willeth them Act. 20. that they should take heede vnto the flockes ouer the which the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers where he
signe of purenesse that is in the Minister and therefore all this that you The forme of apparell may put a man in minde of 〈◊〉 dutie write in confuting of that myght haue bene cutte off and very well spared But if Master Martyr shoulde haue sayde that it maye be a signe of the purenesse that oughte to be in Ministers you are to séeke for an answere as yet Christ beyng puritie it selfe néeded nothyng to put hym in mynde thereof but man beyng impure may haue externall instrumentes to byd hym as it were remember what he ought to be I thinke that seuerall kyndes of habites be appoynted to men of diuerse degrées and calling partly for that purpose and if a man in graue apparell vse hymselfe lightly or wantonly we vse commonly to saye suche behauiour becommeth not that apparell meanyng that hys habite and apparell oughte to put him in mynde of modestie and grauitie and thys doth argue that euen méere ciuill things maye haue significations whiche ouerthroweth an other argument of yours whereby you woulde proue that the apparell muste of necessitie be an ecclesiasticall ceremonie bycause there is attributed vnto it some signification Whether it be a matter meare ciuill or meare Ecclesiasticall or mixt of both is not now the questiō neither yet whether the Church may be confounded wyth the common wealth or no and therfore I will not here deale with anye of them leaste I shoulde confounde both the matter and the Reader onely I speake of your argument whiche is confuted by common vsage for seuerall habites in the vniuersities signifie seuerall degrées in learnyng seuerall kynde of apparell seuerall callings and functions in the common wealthe and thys apparell doth put euerie man in mynde of hys duetie and yet they are not longer to be reteined than the Magistrate and the lawes doe permitte but are alterable accordyng to tymes places and persons No man sayth that there is vertue in such garmentes or power to worke godlynesse and therefore your pretie iestes builded vpon that ground are vayne and toyish and your topicall place not rightly vnderstanded for it is ment of such things quae per se aliquid faciunt Euery thing that signifieth any thing is not a sacrament for then were Matrimonie asacrament and so were laying on of hands and such like The Papistes vsed vnlawfull signes and attributed vnto them life and death for they made them necessarie to saluation Images whether they be grauen paynted or wouen are agaynste the expresse commaundement of God and therefore these be vnapte similitudes neyther woulde you haue vsed them if you had well considered M. Martyrs wordes The same I answere to your allegation of holy water and holy bread they be pseudoadiaphora and haue annexed vnto them opinion of saluation and of worship all which we vtterly remoue from these orders Your answere to M. Martyrs M. Bucers authoritie is sure but not greatly commendable T. C. refuseth y e iudgement of learned men whē he cannot otherwise anwere them In mens wri tings the circumstances of time and place must be distin guished for it is the easiest but the worst answere that can be to denie the authoritie of wise learned famous men that without reason onely by cauilling These be their knowne writings and they be written of purpose vpon these controuersies according to the circumstances of time place and person and therefore if any thing in their publike writings séeme to be against their iudgements here distinguishe the tyme and other circumstances and I doubt not but they will well agrée with themselues Interim you doe your endeuour to deface them Chap. 7. the ninth Diuision Admonition They haue the shewe of euill seing the Popishe priesthood is euill Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 240. Sect. 2. When they were a signe and token of the Popishe priesthood then How apparell is a signe of euill and how otherwise were they euil euen as the thing was which they signified but now they be the tokens the signes of the ministers of the worde of God which are good therfore also they be good no man in this Church of England is so ignorant but that he knoweth this apparell not to be nowe the signes of a Massing Priest but of a lawfull Minister wherfore it is a shew of good euen as it is in the like manner in the vniuersities a shewe and signe of degrees in learning and therefore a shewe of good excepte you will also condemne degrees of learning Neither is it any straunge matter for the selfe same thing in diuerse respects and at diuerse times to be the signe both of good and euill The bels were a signe of euill whē they were rung to cal to Masse and to stay stormes and tempests the selfe same bels are now a signe of good when they be rung to Sermons and other godly actions The Churches themselues were a signe of euil whē Idolatrie was committed in them false doctrine preached now they be a signe of good when God is rightly worshipped in them his worde truely preached Many such examples I could bring but a reasonable mā can gather of these sufficiently to confute your error Futhermore when we be willed to absteyne from all shewe of euill it is ment of euill life and euil doctrine least we doe any thing with a scrupulous conscience T. C. Pag. 59. tovvardes the ende M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes shewes of good not of euil as y e authors of the Admonition alleage To the proofe whereof although according to his manner he repeateth diuerse things before alleaged yet the summe of all he hathe comprehended in an argument which is that for so muche as the ministers are good which weare them therefore they are also good and bicause the ministers whereof the apparell are notes and markes be good therefore those be good notes and good markes so the reason is they are notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of the ministers So I will proue the names of Idols to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by Beltshaser Saddrake Misacke and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and his three companions and they were the names of good men therefore they are good names of men And so the names of the Babilonian Idols are by this reason of M. Doctor iustified to be good names Againe the golden calfe was a signe Also it was (*) Vntruth a signe of the true God therefore it was a true signe of God Concerning the notes of ciuill professions and what difference is betwene those and this cause I haue spoken before Io. Whitgifte The Admonition sayth thus they haue the shew of euill seing y e popish priesthood is euill To this I answer that whē they were a signe token of the popish priesthood then they were euill a signe of euill bicause the thing was euill which
they signified but now they are tokens of the Ministers of the Gospell which are good and therfore they are good the signes of good The reason is M. Bucers I am not ashamed of my author and it is stronger than you can ouerthrowe For let me heare howe you will answere this argument whatsoeuer signifieth and noteth that which is good is a signe of good but this apparell signifieth that which is good Ergo it is a signe of good The Maior is euident The Minor is thus proued The ministerie of the Gospell is good but this apparel is a signe of the ministerie of the Gospell Ergo it is a signe of good All the Logike you haue can not answere this argument except you will denie the apparell to be the signe of the ministerie of the Gospel which were to denie y t which is subiect to the senses the other examples that I haue vsed doth make this matter more manifest I referre it to the Reader to iudge how fitly you haue answered them Whether they be good signes or no is not nowe the question but whether they be signes of good for that the Admonition denieth If you can conclude that they be euill bicause they be signes of euill why may not I likewise say that they be good bicause they be signes of good We commonly call that a good signe which is a signe of good neyther can you place this reason in any fallacian it is a signe of good Ergo it is a good signe for it is called a good signe in this respect onely that it signifieth that which is good Those names in respect of those whom they signified were good in the respect of the Externall things may be both good and euill in diuers respects The diuers 〈◊〉 vsed b T. C. in answering Idols to whome they properly belonged they were euill for such externall things in diuers respects may be both good euill The golden calfe was an Idoll made to be worshipped no signe of the true God and therfore vndiscretly here brought in Wheresoeuer I haue before alleaged these things you speake of yet be they answered neither here nor there this the Reader may note if he list that whersoeuer you cannot answere there either you frumpe girde after your maner or you cauill and confute your owne imagination or closely passe the matter ouer in silence or poste it ouer to some other place where you speake nothing of it Chap. 7. the tenth Diuision Admonition They worke discorde they hinder the preaching of the Gospell Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 241. Sect. 2. This is an argumente à non causa ad causam it is not the apparell that Non causa procausa worketh discorde or hindereth the preaching of the Gospell no no more than it is the worde of God that engendreth heresies or wyne that maketh drunke or the sworde that murthereth or the law that worketh iniurie c. But it is the sinister affection the rebellious nature the contentious minde of man For who began this contention or when was it begon Truely if the lawe for apparell were vtterly abrogated yet would not your contentiō cease nay it would burst out muche more vehemently and in farre greater matters as this your Admonition declareth And therefore I thinke rather that the lawe for apparell will stay further contentions especially if it be duely executed T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 1. You say the cause of disorder is not in the apparell but in the mindes of men You meane I am sure those that refuse the apparell but if you make them authors of discorde bycause they consente not wyth you in wearing do you not see it is (*) It is as sone sayd but not so truely bycause the one ret yneth order and the other breaketh it assone sayd that you are the causers of discord bycause you doe not consent with those which weare not For as there should be vnitie in that point if all did weare that apparell so shoulde there be if all did weare none of it It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of this apparell with the vse of wyne and of a sworde which are profitable and necessarie but it is more intollerable that you match it with the worde of God I coulde throwe it as farre downe as you li te it vp but I will not doe so This onely I wyll say if there were no harme in it and that it were also profitable yet forasmuch as it is not commaūded of God expressely but a thing as you say indifferent and notwithstanding is cause of so manie incommodities and so abused as I haue before declared it ought to be sufficient reason to abolishe them seing that the brasen serpent which was instituted of the Lorde himselfe and conteyned a profitable remembrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes his people was beaten to pouder when as it beganne to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Israell and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes which were kepte at the administration of the Lordes 1. Cor. 11. Supper and were meanes to nourish loue amongst the Churches were abused and drawne to another vse than they were first ordeyned did vtterly take them away and commaunde that they should not be vsed any more Io. Whitgifte I may answere you almost in the selfe same wordes and maner that M. Zuinglius answered one Balthazar an Anabaptist who charged him then as you charge vs now Zuinglius ad Balt. in this place consider saith he who be the authors and causes of dissention whether we that attempt nothing of our owne priuate authoritie but haue submitted our selues to the iudgement of the Church and of those that be gouernours of the same or rather you who so arrogantly without any such authoritie doe what you list speake what you list allow and condemne at your pleasure ▪ But for further tryall hereof I referre you to such notes as I haue collected out of Zuinglius and others and placed in the second edition of my Pag. 19. c. Answere to the Admonition Our consenting is according to our duetie required of vs by the worde of God towards such as be in authoritie your dissenting is contrarie to your dutie of obedience in such cases inioyned vnto you by the word of God If all refused the apparell wyth you yet would you not be quiet for you make this the least cause of your schisme I do not compare this apparell with the word of God but by these examples I shew the vnaptnesse of such arguments as be à non causa ad causam You haue throwne it downe as low as you can and if you could cast it lower your will is good therfore to say you coulde do it and wil not is as great an offence as was the midwiues lying to Pharao I haue shewed in my answere that as the case now standeth it is rather commodious
not haue vsed if you could haue founde any better Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Page 76. Sect. 2. Seeing therefore (a) A weake con clusion of false principles the Bishop which Cyprian speaketh of is nothing else but suche as we call pastor or as the common name with vs is parson and his Churche whereof he is a Bishop is neyther dioces nor prouince ▪ but a congregation whiche meete togither in one place and to be taught of one man what should M. Doctor meane to put on this great name of Archbishop vpon so small a Bishopricke as it were Saules great harnesse vpon Dauid his little body or as if a man shoulde set a wyde huge porche before a little house Io. Whitgifte Where the premisses be nought howe shoulde the conclusion be good I would to God your argument were in his right forme that we mighte sée vpon what substantiall postes your conclusion dothe stande But let the Reader consider your grounds which I haue opened before I might heere tell you agayne that Cyprian in playne and manifest words Lib. 4. Epist. 1. dothe make a Bishop superior in degrée to him that you call pastor his words I haue repeated before I might also put you in minde of Cyprians iurisdiction ouer the churches of Carthage Numidia and Mauritanie according to his owne testimonie lib. 4. Epi. 8. in which respecte Illyricus dothe call him Metropolitane Likewise I might tell you that the most writers of that age as Tertullian de Coro militis de Fuga in pers Origen hom 2. in Numer 11. in Hierem. doe make thrée degrées of Ministers Deacons Priests Bishops To be short I could bid you looke Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 1. and you should sinde that Demetrius who liued Anno. 191. was Bishop Paroeciarū Alexandriae Aegypti of the parishes of Alexandria and Egypt and referre you to many suche examples vsed before which vtterly ouerthrowe this conclusion and euen hisse it out of the doores Chap. 3. the. 9 Diuision T. C. Pag. 76. Sect. 3. And least that M. Doctor shoulde saye that notwithstanding the Bishops had but seuerall churches yet one of them might haue eyther a title more excellent than the rest or authoritie and gouernmēt ouer the rest that shal likewise be considered out of Cyprian And first for the title and honor of archebishop it appeareth howe Cyprian helde that as a proude name for he obiecteth to Florentius as a presumptuous thing for that in beleeuing certayne euill reportes of him and misiudging 4. p. 9 of him he did appoynt himselfe Bishop of a Bishop and iudge ouer him whiche was for the time appoynted of God to be iudge Io. Whitgifte Pupianus to whome Cyprian wrote that Epistle had greatly misused Cyprian in beléeuing certayne false rumors reports of him vpon the same giuing sentence against him for this cause Cyprian reproueth Pupianus saying Quis autem nostrum Iongè est ab bumilitate vt úmne ego qui quotidie fratribus seruio venientes ad ecclesiam singulos benignè cū voto gaudio suscipio an tu qui te Episcopū Episcopi iudicē iudicis ad tēpus à Deo dati constituis c. VVhether of vs is further from humilitie I which serue my brethren dayly receyue euery one that cōmeth vnto the Church gētly with desire ioy or thou which makest thy selfe the Bishop of the Bishop and the iudge of the iudge giuen of God for the time It appeareth rather in these words that Florentius is reproued for taking vpon him to iudge Cyprian to whō he ought obedience so that this place doth not deregate any thing frō any lawful authoritie that one Bishop hath ouer another but it condemneth the rash presumptuous iudgement of those that will take vpon them rashly to giue sentēce of their superiours betters as Pupianus did For in that he findeth fault with him for making himselfe as it were Bishop of the Bishop and iudge of the iudge he playnly declareth that he himself was both Bshop and iudge of Pupianus neyther dothe he obiect this to Pupianus as a proude name but as a proude deede Chap. 3. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag 76. Sect. 4. And heerein also I may vse the same reasons which the godly writers of our time vse agaynst the Pope to proue that he had no superioritie in those dayes ouer other Bishops for that the other Bishops called him brother and he them called him fellow Bishop he them For so doth Cyprian call the Bishops of that prouince in hys Epistle his fellow Bishops and in diuers places his brethren And in the sentence which he spake in the Councel of Carthage he sayth none of vs doth take him selfe to be Bishop of Bishops Io. Whitgifte Euery Bishop was chiefe in his owne Prouince and not subiect to any The Bishop of Rome had no iurisdictiō ouer the Bishop of Carthage but they were of equall power and authoritie as others were also of the like seates In that Cyprian called the Bishops of his prouince fellowe Bishops and brethren he declared that the functiō and ministerie was all one he like wise vttered his humble minde spirite But this proueth not that he had no superioritie ouer them S. Peter in his first Epist. chap. 5. 1. Pet. cap. 5. calleth himselfe fellowe minister with those whom he then exhorted which were all pastors and such as were ministers of the worde and yet you acknowledge an Apostle to be the highest in the Church aboue al the other degrées mentioned ad Ephe. 4. Cyprians words in the Councell of Carthage I haue spoken of in another place he meaneth the title of vniuersall Bishop and suche as séeke tyrannically vnlawfully to rule and especially suche as will of necessitie binde all other men to their opinions in all thinges for his words be Tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem collegas suos adigat None of vs enforceth his fellowes by tyrannicall feare to the necessitie of obeying Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 1. Nowe that there was no authoritie of one Bishop ouer an other and that there was none such as when controuersies rose tooke vpon him the compounding of them or any one to whom it apperteyned to see the vnitie of the Church kept and to see that all other Bishops and the Cleargy dyd their duetie as M. Doctor beareth vs in hande it may clearely be seene in dyuers places of Cyprian and first of all in that sentence which he spake in the Councel of Carthage where he proceedeth further after this sorte that none of them dyd by any tyrannicall feare binde his fellowes in office or any fellowe Bishops to any necessitie of obedience seeing that euery Bishop hath for his free libertie and power his owne iudgement and discretion as one which can not be iudged of an other as he also him selfe can not iudge an other but sayth
he we ought to tarry and wayte for the iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only and alone hath power to fet vs ouer his Church and to iudge of our doing And in the same Epistle wherout the first place is taken by M. Doctor he sayth that vnto euery one a portion of the flocke is appoynted which euery one must rule gouerne as he that shal render an accompt of his deede vnto the Lord. And in an other place he sayth Li. 2 ep 1. we doe not vse any compulsion or violence ouer any nor appoynt no lawe to any seeing that euery one that is set ouer the Church hath in the gouernment the free disposition of his owne will wherof he shall giue an accompt vnto the Lorde And yet Cyprian was the Bishop of the Metropolitane or chiefe seate and one whome for his learning nd godlynesse the rest no doubte had in great reuerence and gaue great honor vnto Io. Whitgifte Bicause so much adoe is made of the words of Cyprian in that erroneous Councel The wordes of Cyprian discussed Tom. 1. Con. Carth. of Carthage wherein Cyprian himselfe also was the chiefe author of the errour I will recite the words as I doe there finde them Nequè enim quisquam nostrum episcopū se esse episcoporum constituit aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem Collegas suos adigit cum habeat omnis episcopus licentiam libertatis potestatis suae arbitrium proprium tanquā iudicari ab alio non possit cum nec ipse possit alterum iudicare sed expectemus vniuersi iudicium Domini nostri Iesu Christi qui vnus solus habet potestatem praeponendi nos in ecclesiae suae gubernatione de actu nostro iudicandi Neyther dothe any of vs make him selfe Bishop of Bishops or enforceth his fellowes to the necessitie of obeying by tyrannicall feare bicause euery Bishop hathe freedome of libertie and free iudgement of his owne power as he who can be iudged of no other neyther can him selfe iudge another Bishop but let vs all wayte for the iudgement of our Lorde Iesus Christ who alone hathe power bothe to place vs in the gouernment of the Churche and to iudge of our dooing It were very absurde to thinke that Cyprians words are generaily to be vnderstanded of all kinde of iudgement or that a Bishop in all things shoulde be left to his owne free libertie and discretion or that be is frée from all controlement For what if he be an heretike what if he be otherwise criminous shall he not be iudged by man but lefte onely to the iudgement of Christe The words of Cyprian if they be as you vnderstand them The meaning of Cyprian take authoritie of iudgement aswell from Synodes as from Archbishops Cyprian therfore meaneth as the words themselues do teache that one Bishop should not tyrannically rule ouer an other at his pleasure abridge the libertie of an other in vttering his iudgement especially in a Synode or rashly condenme an other For Cyprian in that Councell propounding the controuersie of rebaptization requireth euery mans iudgement therof protesting as it were not to condemne or to excommunicate any that should dissent from him in that matter and therevpon sayth Nequè enim quisquam nostrum c. so that he meaneth that to be tyrannicum to compeil other Bishops necessarily to agrée to his opinion in ▪ all things these words licētia libertalis potestatis suae arbitriū propriū are not m nt of iurisdiction but of iudgement and opinion For one man is not of necessitie bounde to frame him selfe to the iudgement and opinion of an other but therein hath fréedome and libertie neyther will any man allowe this authoritie in any Archbishop Touching iurisdiction euery Bishop in this church hath frée gouernment ouer his stocke in al things that belongeth vnto him if any thing happen that he can not end then the Archbishop intermedleth if that will not serue it is referred to a Synode The words of Cyprian can in no respect derogate any thing from the iurisdiction of Archebishops For concerning iurisdiction they be bounde to lawes themselues and do but execute lawes made not of their owne priuate authoritie but by Parliament and by the Prince Neyther can they controle the worst minister in their Dioces if he obserue the lawes and rules prescribed Therefore excepte your meaning be to haue Bishops and ministers frée from all lawes and from all subiection to any superiour Prince or other whiche is moste like I doe not knowe why you should take this saying of Cyprian in that sense you doe Sure I am that the words doc not fauour your Anarchie and that may the Reader easily perceyue In that Cyprian sayth vnto euery one a portion of the flocke is appoynted he sayth truely but yet dothe he not thereby exempte Bishops Pastors and Ministers from obedience and subiection to their lawfull gouernours For due obedience dothe not hinder any dutie that is owing towards their flocke In the place that you alleage out of Cyprians seconde booke and first Epistle you haue omitted that whiche goeth before and declareth what Cyprian meaneth by the words that you haue recited His wordes be these Caeterùm scimus quosdam quod Lib. 2. Epist. 1. semel imbiberunt nolle deponere nec propositum suum facilè mutare c. But we know that certayne will neuer laye away that which once they haue taken neyther easily chaunge their purpose but doe reteyne certayne thinges peculiar to them selues whiche once they haue vsed yet not breaking the bonde of peace and concorde among their fellowes wherein we neyther compell any man nor appoynte any lawe since euery gouernour hathe free iudgement of his wyll in the gouernment of the Churche and shall render an accompt of his deede to the Lorde Cyprian in the wordes before sheweth his opinion concernyng suche as béeing Ministers of the worde had sacrificed to Idols and when he hathe so done thus he speaketh to Stephane to whome he writte the Epistle Haec ad conscientiam tuam frater charissime c. Then followeth Caeterùm scimus c. as I haue before recyted wherein Cyprian signifieth that he wyll not take vpon him to iudge or to condemne other Churches whiche haue a contrarie custome so that they kéepe the bonde of peace But he meaneth vndoubtedly suche Churches and Bishops as he had nothing to doe with else it is manyfest that within his owne charge he woulde not haue suffered any suche thing to be done and thys place answereth all that Cyprian hathe spoken any where touchyng Tract 3. cap. 2. Sect. 5. not receyuyng into the ministerie suche as had sacrificed to Idols whereof I haue spoken before Chap. 3. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 2. 3. 4. And whereas it is sayd for the preseruation of vnitie one must be ouer al S. Cyprian sheweth Li. 4. epi. 9 that
the whole scope of the Epistle and the playne and euidente wordes of the texte for what is this but to giue Timothie superioritie and gouernment ouer the other Ministers of Ephesus to saye vnto hym aduersus presbyterum Agaynst a Minister receyue no occusation c and as thys authoritie of Iudgement is not onely gyuen vnto Timothie but to all Byshops of like callyng so that also of teachyng that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs c. perteyneth to all Ministers of the worde generally and not to Timothie alone This is onely the difference that the firste is common to Timothie wyth all other Byshops of like iurisdiction the other common to him with all other ministers of the worde You knowe that euery Pastor or other Minister of the worde hath not other Pastors and Ministers of the worde vnder hym that it maye be sayde vnto hym aduersus presbyteros c. as it is here sayde to Timothie for I haue proued before that presbyter dothe signifie the Ministers of the worde and Sacramentes and shall haue occasion to speake more of it hereafter You saye that there is an hundreth suche things in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus ▪ I thinke that there is not one hundreth seuerall preceptes in all the thrée Epistles These stoute and hyperbolicall bragges wyth so manyfest resisting of the playne sense and meanyng of the Scriptures argueth an euill conscience and a mynde so addicted to errour that it will not be reformed Manye things in these Epistles perteyne to all Christians many things be proper to Byshops suche as Timothie was and many common to all Ministers But this aduersus presbyteros ▪ c. muste néedes to proper be those that haue vnder them other Ministers committed to theyr gouernment which euery Pastor hath not Chap. 3. the. 58. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. And Epiphanius Lib. 3. Tom. 1. contra Haeresim Aerij proueth Timothie his superioritie Epiphanius ouer the rest by this selfe same place T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 3. As for Epiphanius * This is your practise to discredite the author that speaketh against you it is knowen of what authoritie he is in thys place when as by Aerius sides he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle ▪ whilest he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference betwene those which the Apostle maketh one that is a Bishop and elder and to spare the credit of Epiphanius it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseudepiphanius which we may doe not without great probabilitie seyng * Augustine sayth that the Ad quod vult deum true Epiphamus vttereth all after a storie fashion and doth not vse anye disputation or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshood and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons the choise whereof M. Doctor hath taken Io. Whitgifte I haue not heard any probable reason alleaged of any why these bookes of Epiphanius The writings of Epiphanius contra 80. haereses not counterfeite should be suspected whether they be his or no seeyng they be both learned and very auncient mentioned also of sundry olde writers But to omitte all other proofes I wyll onely vse the iudgement at this tyme of the authors of the Centuries who are to be credited in suche matters bycause they haue diligently and carefully laboured in them their opinion of these bookes of Epiphanius Cent. 4 cap. 10. is thys Nunc de scriptis c. Nowe we wyll speake of hys bookes of the which that worke against Cent. 4. cap. 10. the foure score heresyes is most noble which booke he hymselfe in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Ministers And in his booke called Anacephaleosis calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Of the which writing Augustine in his booke ad quod-vult-deum maketh this mention Our Epiphanius Byshop of Cyrus sayth he which dyed not long since speaking of foure score heresies wrote also himselfe sixe Bookes making mention of all things after an Historicall maner disputing nothing either against the falsehood or with the truthe They be but short bookes and if they were all made in one yet were it not to be compared to ours or to diuerse other mens bookes in length Out of the which words it is euident that Augustine neither had nor at any time dyd see that worke which Epiphanius intituled Panarium for Epiphanius is very long in recountyng the historie as concerning the beginning the endeuour countrey of the heretikes the occasiō of the heresie the successe increase and suche lyke throughout euery heresie Then is he very long in confuting and condemning the heresies by true Scriptures and the interpretation of them wherfore it should seeme that Augustine had belyke onely the arguments prefixed before the Tomes of bookes of Epiphanius whiche he dothe therefore call shorte bookes or at the least had his booke called Anacephaleosis which is the summe of his worke called Panarium Cornarius that writeth Cornarius the Preface before this booke of Epiphanius is of the same iudgement and addeth these wordes VVherefore eyther Augustine dyd not see this worke of Epiphanius or the right worke of Augustine is not extant but loste or else Augustine dyd not in deede performe that whiche he promised I can reade of none that doubteth whether these bookes were Epiphanius his or no. And certaynely this kinde of answering is nexte the worst especially when it is vsed agaynst suche approued authors And bicause all men may vnderstande what Epiphanius wordes and reasons be Aerius here sie in denying the difference betwixt a Be shop priell ▪ Epi. li. 3. 〈◊〉 haeres 75 ▪ whiche in déede pinche you very néere for he calleth you heretikes I will declare them as I haue there founde them First he setteth downe the heresie of Aērius in these words His talke was more outrageous than becōmed a man and he sayd what is a Bishop to a Priest he nothing differeth from him for there is but one order and the same honor and dignitie The Bishop layeth on his handes and so dothe the Priest the Bishop ministreth baptisme and so dothe the priest the Bishop sayth diuine seruice and so doth the Priest the Bishop sitteth in his throne and so dothe the Priest In this he hathe deceyued many and they vse him for their captayne Then dothe he a little after confute this heresie with Aerius reasons on this sorte To saye that a Bishop and a Priest is equall howe can it be possible for the order of Bishops is the begetter of fathers for it ingendreth fathers to the Churche the order of Priests not beeing able to beget fathers dothe beget sonnes to the Churche by the sacrament of Baptisme but not fathers or teachers and howe is it possible for him to ordeyne a Priest not hauing imposition of hands to electe or to saye that he is equall with a Bishop but phantasticalnesse and emulation deceyued the
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
continuallye to be taught that hée shoulde at all tymes remember his dutie so is it verye necessarye to haue certayne feastes wherein by the readyng and hearyng of the Scriptures men maye be particularlye styrred to the remembraunce and depe consyderation of the principall partes of our Religion and the good and godlye examples of the Sainctes of God in doing their dutie therein Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 18. But besydes the incommodities that vyse of makyng such holydayes and continuyng of those which are so horribly abused where it is confessed that they are not necessary besydes this I saye the matter is not so indifferent as it is made I confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shall assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thynke good accordyng to those rules whiche are before alleadged But that it hath power to make so manye holydayes as we haue wherein no man maye worke any parte of the daye and wherein men are commaunded to cease from theyr daylye vocations of Plowyng and exercisyng theyr handye craftes c. that I denye to be in the power of the churche For proofe whereof I wyll take the fourth commaundement and no other interpretation of it than M. Doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page whiche is that God lycenseth and leaueth it at the libertie of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke so that he rest the seuenth day Seeing that therfore that the Lord hathe lefte it to all men at libertie that they might labour if they thinke good sixe dayes I say the Churche nor (*) You drawe from the Magistrate his law authoritie and giue to the people too muche carnall libertie no man can take away this libertie from them and driue them to a necessarie rest of the body Io. Whitgifte The same God that gaue that libertie in that commaundement did appoynt other solemne feast dayes besides the Sabboth as the feast of Easter of Pentecoste of Tabernacles c. withoute any restraynte of this libertie Therefore the interpretation giuen by me page 174. of that place dothe not leaue it to euery priuate mans frée libertie agaynst the authoritie of the Magistrate or of the Churche but it giueth libertie rather to suche as be in authoritie and to the Churche to appoynt therin what shall be conuenient The Magistrate hathe power and authoritie ouer his subiectes in all externall The Magistrate hathe authoritie to abridge externall libertie What libertie can not be taken away matters and bodily affayres Wherefore he maye call them from bodily labour or compell them vnto it as shall be thought to him moste conuenient The libertie that God giueth to man whyche no man oughte to take from hym nor can if he woulde is libertie of conscience and not of worldly affayres In bodily businesse he is to be gouerned by Magistrates and lawes This doctrine of yours is very licentious and tendeth too muche to carnall and corporall libertie and in déede is a very perillous doctrine for all states Not one title in Gods worde dothe constrayne eyther the Magistrate or the Churche from turning carnall libertie to the spiritual seruice of God or bodily labour to diuine worship as those doe that cause men to abstayne from corporall labour that they maye heare the worde of God and worship him in the congregation And whye maye not the Churche as well restrayne them from working anye parte of the daye as it maye doe the moste parte of it for you confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynte so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shoulde assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thinke good according to those rules whiche are before alleaged and this it can not doe vnlesse in the same dayes during all that tyme whiche is no small portion of the daye it restrayne them from bodily laboure Wherefore this béeing no commaundement that they shall labour sixe dayes in the wéeke but a signification that so many dayes they maye labour as the same God that gaue this commaundement hathe done before in the olde lawe so maye the Churches likewyse for the encrease of godlinesse and vertue and edification appoynt some of those sixe dayes to be bestowed in prayers hearing the worde administration of the sacraments and other holy actions Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. about the middest And if it be lawfull to abridge the libertie of the Churche in this poynte and in steade that the Lorde saythe Sixe dayes thou mayest labour if thou wilte to saye Thou shalte not labour sixe dayes I doe not see why the Churche maye not as well where as the Lorde saythe thou shalt rest the seuenth daye commaunde that thou shalte not rest the seuenth day for if the Church maye restrayne the libertie that God hathe giuen them it maye take away the yoke also that God hathe put vpon them Io. Whitgifte The Churche is not abridged of hir libertie in thys poynte but vseth hir libertie in appoynting some of these dayes to the worshipping of GOD and the instruction of his people whiche shoulde not be counted a bondage or seruitude to any man To rest the seuenth daye is commaunded to labour sixe dayes is but permitted he that for biddeth rest on the seuenth daye dothe directly agaynst the cōmaundement so dothe not he that restrayneth men from bodily labour in any of the sixe dayes and therefore the reason is not lyke And yet the commaundement of bodily rest vpon the seuenth day in sundrie cases maye of a mans selfe muche more at a lawfull commaundement of a Magistrate in necessitie be broken In thinges indifferent priuate mens willes are subiect to suche as haue authoritie ouer them therefore they ought to consent to their determination in such matters except they will shewe them selues to be wilfull whiche is a great faulte and deserueth muche punishment But hitherto you haue not replied to any Answere made to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 173. in the latter ende This is no restraynt for any man from seruing of God any daye in the weeke else For the Iewes had diuers other feastes whiche they by Gods appoyntment obserued notwithstāding these words Sixe dayes c. T. C. Pag. 120. Sect. 1. And where as you say in the. 173. page that notwithstanding this fourth commaundement the Iewes had certayne other feasts whych they obserued In deede the Lorde which gaue this generall lawe mighte make as many exceptions as he thoughte good and so long as he thought good but it followeth not bycause the Lorde dyd it that therefore the Churche may doe it vnlesse it hath commaundement and authoritie
as it hath done from time to time S. August in his epistle Augustine ad Ian. in y e place before of me recited saithe that the passion of Christe his resurrectiō his ascētion the day of the cōming of the holy ghost which we cōmonly call Whitsontide is celebrated not by any cōmaundement written but by the determination of the church And it is the iudgement of al learned writers that the church hath authoritie in these things so that nothing be done against the word of God But of this I haue spoken partly before and intende to speake more largely thereof in the place folowing where you agayn make mention of it Admonition In this booke days are ascribed vnto saincts kept holie with fastes on their euens prescript seruice appointed for them which beside that they are of many superstitiously kepte and obserued and also contrarie to the commaundement (z) Exo. 20. 9. Exo. 3. 12. Deu. 5. 13. Esa. 1. 10. 13 14. Leuit. 23. 3. 2. Esd. 1. 13. Rom. 14. 6 Ga. 4. 10. 11 of God Six days thou shalt labour and therfore we for the superstition that is put in them dare not subscribe to allow them Answer to the Admo pag 173. sect 2. pa. 174. 175. pa. 176. sect 1. 2. Your collection hāgeth not together for how foloweth this these holidays be superstitiously obserued of some therfore you may not allow thē why should other mēs superstition hinder you from lawfully vsing a lawful thing The saboth day is superstitiously vsed of some Abuse of thin ges doth not condemne the things so is y e church so is y e crede the Lords praier many things else and yet I hope you wil subscribe to thē You heap vp a nūber of places in the margent to proue y t which no mā doubteth of y t is this portion of the comandemēt Six days shalt thou labour c. the meaning of which words is this that seing God hath permitted vnto vs six days to do our own works in we ought the seuenth day wholly to serue him Euery mā hath not bodily labour to do but may serue God aswell in these six dayes as in the seuenth And certainly he doth not by any meanes breake this cōmaundement which absteineth in any of these six days from bodily labour to serue god ▪ For this is the cōmandemēt Remember that thou kepe holy the Sabboth day as for this Six days thou shalt work is no cōmandement but tendeth rather to the constitution of the Saboth thā to the prohibiting of rest in any other day appointed to the seruice of God And it is asmuch as if he should say Sixe days thou mayst worke so do some translate the Hebrewe worde The place alleaged out of the first of Esay is far from the purpose ther is not one word there spokē of any holy days dedicate to saints but only the Lord signifieth that their sacrifices feast days wer not acceptable vnto him bicause they were done in hypocrisie without Esay cōdemneth the maner of sacrificing fayth so that he reproueth modum not factum their maner of sacrificing that is their hypocriticall kynde of worshipping him In the seconde of Esdras 1. in the place by you quoted I see not one worde that may serue for your purpose the wordes you quote be these I haue led you through the sea and haue giuen you a sure way Uaine quotation since the beginning I gaue you Moses for a guide and Aaron for a Priest In the. 14. to the Ro. the apostle speaketh nothing of our holydays but of suche as were obserued among the Iewes and abrogated by the commyng of Chryste And yet in that place the Apostle exhorteth that wee whyche bee strong should not despyse them that are weake nor condemne them though they vse not the christian libertie in dayes and meates That in the fourth to the Galat. Ye obserue dayes moneths and tymes and yeares c. Sainct Augustine ad Ianuar. Episto 119. expoundeth Augustine on this sorte Eos inculpat qui dicunt non proficiscar quia posterus dies est aut quia luna sic fertur vel proficiscar vt prospera cedant quia ita se habet positio syderum non agam hoc mense commertium quia illa stella mihi agit mensem vel agam quia suscepit mensem I know there be other that do otherwise expounde that place and that truly euen as they doe also that in the. 14. to the Rom. of certain Iewish feastes as Sabboths newe Moones the feastes of Tabernacles the yeare of Iubilie and such like abrogated by the gospell and yet superstitiously obserued of some But these places cā by no means be vnderstode of the days obserued by vs called ▪ by the names of saintes dayes for they were ordeined since the writing of this epistle And that you may vnderstād the differēce betwixt the festiual days Difference betwixte the Papists holidays ours obserued of the Papists the days allowed now in this Churche it is to be considered First that their Saints days were appointed for the honoring and worshipping of the Saints by whose names they were called oures be ordeined for the honoring of God for publike prayer and edifying the people by readyng the Scriptures and preachyng 2 The Papistes in their Saincts dayes prayed vnto the Sainctes we only pray vnto God in Christes name 3 They had all things done in a strange tong without any edifying at all we haue the prayers and the Scriptures red in a tongue known which can not be without great commoditie to the hearers 4 To be shorte they in obseruing their dayes thinke they merite therby something at Gods handes We in obseruing our days are taught farre otherwyse The Church euen from the beginning hath obserued such feastes as it may appeare in good writers Pag. 179 Sect. 1. Touching fastyng on the euens of suche feastes or rather absteyning from fleshe you know it is not for religion but for policie and as I thinke the same is protested in that Act where suche kynde of absteyning is established And therfore these be but slender quarels picked to disalowe suche a booke Io. Whitgifte All this haue you ouerskipped for what cause you know best your selfe ¶ What kind of preaching is moste effectual Tract 11. The firste Diuision Admonition The fiftenth and sixtenth Then (n) 1. Pet. 5. feeding the flocke diligently nowe teachyng quarterlye then preachyng (o) 1. Tim. 4. 2. in season and out of season nowe once in a moneth is thought sufficient if twice it is iudged a worke of supererogation ▪ Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Pag. 83. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. These be but wordes of pleasure God bee thanked there bee ministers and suche as you mislyke of whiche feede their flocks diligently and preache in tyme and out of tyme according bothe to S. Peters and S. Paules
with what name those notes are called which are cyted of M. Doctor for the defense of these corruptions they are called by M. Doctors owne confession Censures which worde signifieth and implyeth as much as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take this for a generall rule throughout the whole booke of Seruice that in whatsoeuer things in controuersie M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authoritie to confirme them that those things Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate Baptisme and Communions ministerd in houses for interrogatories ministred to Infants and such lyke for so muche as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgement it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not either condemned or misliked of diuerse things in the Seruice booke we shoulde haue had the notes printed and set forth to the full This I thought in a worde to admonish the reader of Io. Whitgifte To your first cauill I haue answered before where you made the same To your seconde of master Bucers Censures though the booke be not so intituled the M. Bucers Censures vppon the first booke in king Edwardes time answere is short and plaine it was his iudgement vppon the first Communion booke in the time of king Edwarde wherein he misliked some things but alloweth both priuate Baptisme and the Communion ministred to the sicke as I before declared and you might haue remembred if your memorie had not fayled you Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 4. Unto M. Bucers authoritie I could here oppose men of as great authoritie yea the authoritie of all the reformed Churches which shal also be done afterwarde And if there were nothing to oppose but the worde of God which will haue the Sacraments ministred simplie and in that sinceritie that they be left vnto vs it is enough to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that which thy shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicitie The reasons which M. Bucer bringeth I will answere wh ch in this matter of crossing are two first that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of this vsage Li. de resurrect carnis And if this be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we shoulde mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptions which were likewise vsed in those tymes For the same Li. de corona militis Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of milke and honie and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes without proofe Crossing in that maner and forme that we vse it verie well agréeth with the simplicitie of the worde of God If it doe not so shewe any worde agaynst it Your answere to that reason is very base for it is not onely auncient but it hath continued and béene generally receyued which you allowed before as a sufficient reason for Godfathers As for milke and honie the vse of them was neyther continued long nor yet generall and therefore the reason of them and of the other is not lyke Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 135 Sect. vlt. But here I will note the cause wherevppon I suppose this vse of crossing came vp in the Primitiue Churche whereby shall appeare howe there is no cause nowe why it it should be reteyned if there were any why it shoulde be vsed in the Primitiue Churche It is knowne to all that haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories that the Heathen did obiect to the Christians in tymes past in reproche that the God which they beleeued of was hanged vpon a Crosse. And they thought good to testifie that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God by the often vsing of the signe of the Crosse which carefulnesse and good mynde to keepe amongest them an open profession of Christ crucifyed although it be to be commended yet is not this meanes so for they might otherwise haue kept it and with lesse daunger than by this vse of crossing and if they thought the vse of the Crosse to be the best meanes yet they shoulde not haue beene so bolde as to haue brought it into the holy Sacrament of Baptisme and so mingle the ceremonies and inuentions of men with the Sacramentes and institution of God And as it was brought in vpon no good grounde so the Lord left a marke of his curse of it and whereby it might be perceyued to come out of the forge of mans brayne in that it beganne forthwith while it was yet in the swadling cloutes to be superstitiously abused For it appeareth by Tertullian also in the same booke de Corona militis that the Christians had such a superstition in it that they woulde doe nothing nor take nothing in hande vnlesse they had crossed them when they went out when they came in when they sat or lay downe and when they rose and as Superstition is alwayes strengthned and spreddeth it selfe with the time so it came from crossing of men vnto crossing of euerie thing that they vsed Wherevpon Chrysostome commendeth the crossing of the Cuppe before a man drinke Vpon the 1. Tim. 4. cap. and of the meate before it was eaten But if it were graunted that vppon this consideration which I haue before mencioned the auncient Christians did well yet it followeth not that wee shoulde so doe for we liue not amongest those Nations whiche doe cast vs in the teeth or reproche vs with the Crosse of Christ. If we liued amongst the Turkes it were an other matter and then there might peraduenture some question be whether we shoulde doe as they did and hauing the same sore vse the same playster But nowe we liue among the Papistes that doe not contemne the crosse of Christ but which esteeme more of the woodden crosse than of the true crosse of Christ which is his sufferings we ought nowe to doe cleane contrariewise to the olde Chrystians and abolishe all vse of these crosses for contrarie diseases must haue contrarie remedyes if therefore the olde Christians to delyuer the crosse of Christ from contempt did often vse the crosse the Christians nowe to take away the superstitious estimation of it ought to take away the vse of it Io. Whitgifte I thinke your supposition in parte to bée true I am also perswaded that the originall cause of vsing this signe was lawfull and good and yet the thing if selfe afterwardes abused and the cause of vsing is cleane altered and wholy conuerted to superstition but the abuse béeing taken away I sée no cause why it may not be vsed in Baptisme in that manner and forme as it is in this Churche of Englande that is In token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the fayth of Christ crucified and manfully to fight vnder his banner agaynst sinne the worlde
as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias and as ▪ it hath oftentimes bene must all be committed to them then also No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche will alter or chaunge determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion without their aduise and counsayle But how if there be dissention among them shall not the Prince determine the controuersies as Constantinus Theodosius and other godly Emperours did wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie from godly Princes in matters of the Church The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not M. Doctor (*) It is nothing els as will appeare to shake hands with the Papistes For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate which we do not And y e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that be it good or euill without further inquitie but we saye (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this ▪ that if there be no lawfull ministerie to set good orders as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion that then the Prince ought to do it and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete and if this be to shake handes with the papistes then M. Doctor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche belongeth vnto the churche And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church I will trauayle no further in this matter considering that the practise of this churche commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference that where it is done now of one or a fewe wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe Io. Whitgifte The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest 5 Harding Yes in good sooth is it for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons offending eyther agaynst the first or second table And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men be subiect to ciuill Magistrates and therefore in that Saunders li 2. poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you Concerning the determination of matters in religion I know not wherein you differ from them for though the Prince mislike your determination yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti take better holde but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination or if you cannot agrée among your selues I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate to determine the matter but for ought that I can espie if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him for potestatem facti you giue him that is you make him your executioner but potestatem iuris you do as fully remoue from him as the papists do for he hath not as you say any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters Saunders sayeth and so say all the Papistes that he hath authoritatem promouendi Saunders religionem authoritie to promote religion but not constituendi to appoynte and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them and vse their argumentes and none other that is in this that you take from the eiuill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe yet woulde haue all proued by scripture is not as ample and as large in matters of religion when there is a lawfull ministerie as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise and followe theyr counsell which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions so peremptorily without any kinde of proofe For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture but onely one borrowed of the Papistes and making directly agaynst you When I say that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Ceremonies I speake generally of all states of the Churche as well vnder persecution as vnder a Christian Magistrate not secluding but including the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate as you and the Papistes woulde haue me to witte as of Iulius Cesar Alexander or Nero but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne not only in the common wealth but in the Churche also Yea I will go further with you I make no difference betwixte No suche difference betweene a christian common wealth the Church as is pretended a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe wonder you as muche at it as you will I haue shewed my reasons before and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you than he is Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters one or two excepted that are of your iudgement in this cause and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes who haue especially sought to impeach the same I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde
deede to be iudged not to iudge he came to worke the worke of our redemption not to decide controuersies touching landes and possessions But will you therfore take from Christian men authoritie to iudge for this exāple of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings bicause the doings of Christ is a patterne for all Christians and yet Christians may iudge matters and decide controuersies amongst their brethren Looke 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists vse this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted of their reasons to condemne magistratie among Christians therfore a very learned and late writer in his exposition of this place writeth thus Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa tanquà m profana sit sed à vocatione sua quòd missus sit in alium finem tametsi res erat per se satis sancta pia Hereof may it be gathered hovv greatly they dote vvhich condemne magistrates amongst Christians by this place for Christe doth not reason of the thing it selfe as though it vvere profane but of his ovvne vocation bicause he vvas sent to an other ende although the thing of it selfe is holy and good T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. vlt. And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauiour Christes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce 12. Luke betwene the brethren it is moste aptly alleaged to this purpose For although our sauiour Christ doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet he sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to entermeddle in y e iudgement of ciuil causes For our sauiour Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he beyng minister of the Gospell did all those things which were perteyning to his ministerie so by refusing this office of iudgement in ciuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was y e ministerie And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here alleageth that y e Anabaptistes vse this reason to proue that Christians may not haue magistrates For howe doth this follow that bycause this place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no Christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there could be no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alleageth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for him but doth quite ouerthrow his cause For he sayth that our sauiour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but bycause it did not agree with his vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a minister of the Gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospell to iudge or to intermedle in ciuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins workes as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit 11. cap. allegation of him he would make the world beleue he might haue redde in him this sentence cited for this purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to do in ciuill thinges Io. Whitgifte Neyther do you héere replie to my Answere for I tolde you that Christ came to be iudged not to iudge in matters of lands and possessions I tolde you likewise that this example of Christ perteyneth no more to Bishops than it dothe to Kings and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied agaynst Bishops than by the Anabaptistes agaynst Christian Magistrates To all this in effect you haue sayde nothing Your owne collection is soone answered Fyrst no man giueth to Bishops authoritie to iudge in matters of inheritance for suche controuersies are to be decided by lawe whiche hath other Iudges appoynted for it Secondly Christ spake this to declare that his kingdome was not of this worlde but of the worlde to come not earthly but heauenly not temporall but eternall and therefore he spake it touching his owne person onely and not as a rule perteyning to other Christians as the Anabaptists feyne Thirdly the authoritie in ciuill matters that is committed to ministers in Ciuill offices in our ministers tende to y e gouernment of the church this Churche is committed vnto them by the Prince for the better gouernment of the Churche and the fuller satisfying of their duetie consisting for the moste parte onely in punishing and correcting sinne And lastly it is not made a thing incident to the ministerie or as parte of that office but it is added as profitable conuenient and necessarie for the present state of the Churche and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duetie I haue tolde you in my Answere to the Admonition that this example of Christ dothe no more perteyne vnto Bishops than to other Christians whiche béeing true and vnconfuted by you then dothe it followe that the Anabaptistes maye aswell alleage it agaynst other Christians as you maye doe agaynst Bishops or Ministers The learned mans interpretation dothe well agrée with my cause for Christ refused it bicause he came to be iudged and to suffer death for the redemption of the world which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of and is onely proper to Christ. I denie not but that M. Caluine may apply this texte to that purpose but M. Caluine dothe expounde him selfe writing vpon this same place when he saythe that euery man must respect his owne vocation quid illi sit aptum and what is meete for it Nowe the ciuill authoritie that Ecclesiasticall persons haue in this Churche is meete for theer vocation And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing agaynst it In the same booke chapter he alleageth these words of Bernarde ▪ whiche he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra c. VVherefore your power is in offences not in possessions And this conclusion he bringeth in vpon the wordes of S. Luke chapter 12. I would not as I sayde before haue Bishops Iudges in controuersies of enheritance Wherein the Bishops authoritie consisteth I doe not affirme that they may in the right of their ministerie chalenge any ciuill authoritie as the Bishop of Rome dothe But forasmuche as the authoritie is in Criminibus in offences as Bernarde sayth therfore if it please the Prince to giue it them they may lawfully execute so muche authoritie ciuill as shall further and helpe them in suppressing sinne And this is agaynst nothing that M. Caluine hathe sayde For M. Caluine and other learned wryters of this age doe vse this place of S. Luke and suche like agaynst the vsurpation of Romishe Bishops chalenging suche authoritie in ciuill matters as due vnto them Iure diuino and so
An other reason you frame on this sorte If the mynister haue both ciuill and Ecclesiasticall power ▪ men should not be able to iudge in their consciences of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them for they might doubt whether the feare of the outward shewe of the minister carried The Repliers argument siniteth as well at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magistrate as at the Ecclesiasticall some stroke with them c. This is as vayne an imagination as is the other and they both may as aptly be applied agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate as agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of the minister yea in déede they serue to the ouerthrow of all kinde of ciuill punishment For if the Magistrate make sharpe lawes for comming to the Churche hearing the woorde of God contemning religion and such like men that by such meanes are driuen to heare the woorde of God c. so at the length conuerted may doubt whether the woorde hath wrought this in them or the feare of outwarde punishment Do you not marke how he still smiteth at the Magistrate Percey te you not how neare he approcheth to the opinion of the Anabaptistes who would haue no kinde of discipline in the Church but only excommunication God vseth corporall punishment as a meanes to saluation But to Answere you briefly God vseth corporall punishments as a meanes to driue ▪ euen the elect to the hearing of the worde of God to honestie of lyfe He vseth it also to brydle the wicked that by their exāples other men might learne to beware and that they themselues also may be kepte in order And no man that is truly conuerted by the preaching of the woorde can doubt but that God by the working of his spirite thorough the ministerie of his woorde hath wrought that good in him though by externall meanes as feare of punishment and such lyke he was first as it were enforced to heare the woorde and to kéepe himselfe in order In deede if these reasons of yours were of any force the Magistrate might put vp his sworde especially in Ecclesiasticall matters and so might the minister lay aside his authoritie also least any thing be ascribed there vnto Your glaunce that this was also the pollicy of the Idolaters though you haue no where proued it yet haue I answered it before Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor sayth that ciuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall ▪ it is so and yet when they are compared with the Ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so much as they to gether with the care of religion procure and prouide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously liue here where the Ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and onely bente to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly and spirituall which you take marchandise husbandry and the handycrafte be heauenly and spirituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God and returne to him agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to his glory so that if the mynister may exercise all things which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bryng him downe to the plough as promote him to the court Io. Whitgifte I call them Ecclesiasticall bycause they perteyne to the inwarde man to the The cluill iurisdiction now vsed is in some respect ecclesiasticall reformation of manners to the punishment of sinne to the mayntenance of Religion to the quietnesse of the Churche and good order in the same so do not all cyuill offices much lesse husbandry marchandise handycraftes goyng to the plough and suche lyke whiche onely perteyne to the body and to this lyfe not beyng referred to the endes that I haue before named Wherefore here your wittes fayled you and I looke for a better Answere Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Lin. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissioner is Ecclesiasticall bycause it handleth Ecclesiasticall causes I maruell that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betwene giuing iudiciail sentences and appoynting bodely punishments whiche are meere ciuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defineth of it which is a thing common as well vnto the magistrate as vnto the mynister wherein the mynister bycause he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with Io. Whitgifte Surely I thinke you scarse vnderstande your selfe for if the causes be Ecclesiasticall why may not the punishment by the Magistrate appoynted vnto them be executed by Ecclesiasticall persons hauing authoritie from the Prince by commission so to do and if the Ecclesiasticall person may giue sentence and iudgement in these Ecclesiastical causes why may he not consent also to the punishments appointed for the same I do not meane he should be the Iaylor or tormentor himselfe but to iudge the person offending worthy of this or that kinde of punishment and to giue sentence of the crime that he hath committed to determine of the cause that is called into iudgement Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. An other of M. Doctors reasons is that as kinges do serue Christe by makyng lawes for him so Bishops do serue Christe by executyng lawes for him as though it perteyned not vnto the Magistrates to execute lawes as well as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking lawe bycause by executing them he dothe cause the lawes after a fashion to speake This is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betweene him and the Bishop yea to gyue the Byshop the best parte of it For we know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the Prince from executing the lawes then as his similitude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by this meanes it halts downe right and is no similitude Io. Whitgifte The Prince executeth his lawes by himselfe he also executeth them by other to whome he hath giuen that authoritie for the fuller and better execution of them in this number are the Bishops for the authoritie they haue in suche matters they haue from the Prince and therefore their executing of it is not to deuide stake with the Cyuill Magistrate but to do good seruice both to God and the Magistrate Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 217. Sect 1. 2. What say you to Elye and Samuell were they not both Priests Samuell priest iudge and iudges what office did the Prophete Elias execute when he killed the false prophets of Baal 1. Reg. 18. or Christ when he whipt the
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
where greate complaynte is made of this greeuous persecution when as you and your disciples cease not as I sayde moste falsely and slaunderously to reporte of suche as executing good lawes discharge theyr conscience to God and their duetie towardes the Prince We therefore exhorte you if there be any feare of God before your eyes any reuerence towards the Prince any desire of promoting the Gospell any louing affection towardes the Church of Christe to submit your selues according to your dueties to godly orders to leaue off contentiousnesse to ioyne with vs in preaching of the word of God and beating downe the kingdome of Antichriste that thys your diuision procure not Gods wrath to be poured vpon vs. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authours of the Admonition whiche declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe saithe that therefore they will not subscribe bycause they are required by lawfull authoritie which how both presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whiche hath bin declared And where M. Doctor would vpon y ◠marginal note pr y t we haue good discipline bycause we haue good doctrine ther vpon doth wonderfully triumph he playeth as he of whome it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is hauing gotten nothing holdeth it fast For can M. Doctor be so ignorant that this manner of speach doctrine and discipline cannot be s uered is vsed of that that they ought not to be seuered ▪ when as we say following S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth do we not meane that we ought to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife but for the cause of A ultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therefore this is as all men may see a meere cauill and triumph ouer his owne shadow There is no bragge of suffering made by the authours of the Admonition The modestie wherwith he hath defended this cause cannot be hidden That he would haue other men punished for well doing when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth should be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Io. Whitgifte I speake of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine which they confesse to be sound vsing a godly interpretation in a poynt or two c. what other abuses so euer there be in the booke of common prayer or in the Church yet that is no sufficient cause why they shoulde refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church and conteyned in those Articles Wherefore séeing they confesse them to be sound and yet denie to subscribe who can otherwise iudge of them than I haue signifyed in my Answer I acknowledge my selfe to be ignorante that in this and suche like phrases thys Can is not taken for ought if it be spoken simply word Can is taken for ought When Saint Paule saithe that we can do nothing againste the truth he meaneth simply as he speaketh and doth not there vse Can for ought For indeede we can do nothing against the truth though we do the worst we can It is no vsuall phrase but an vnproper kind of speach to say that a man cannot do a thing when he should say that he ought not to do it except he adde some thing as he cannot do it lawfully or well or orderly and such like Wherefore my dulnesse is such that I cannot vnderstande suche darke speaches vntill they be interpreted and yet whether they woulde so interprete themselues or no it maye be doubted If they bragge not of persecution wherevnto tende these wordes of theirs this is that we striue for about which we haue suffered not as euill doers c. and quote in the margent to proue it 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels How immodest soeuer I am in defending this cause yet if it be compared eyther to Schismatiks deserue to be sharply reproued their passing bitternesse or to your spitefull speaches and vnséemely tauntes and iestes I shall appeare tootoo simple and although I must néedes say thus much that disturbers of the common peace of the Churche and Schismatikes deserue to be with sharpe wordes reproued yet haue not I vsed that sharpenesse and bitternesse whyche diuerse learned menne bothe olde and newe haue vsed in the lyke case If I haue done any man wrong let him come foorth and proue it and I will render vnto him quadruple T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3. Finally as you exhort vs to submitte ourselues to good order whiche haue bin alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne with you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and will not suffer vs to preache so we exhort you in Gods behalfe and as you will once answer it before the iust iudge that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not against it Wherefore we pray you to take heede that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honoure which you are in nor the hope which you may haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by mainteining that whiche you haue once set downe nor the sleighey suggestion of craftie and wyly Papists do driue you to stumble against this truth of God which toucheth the gouernment of his Church and the purging of those corruptions whiche are amongst vs knowing that you cannot stumble vpon the word of God but foorthwith you runne yourselfe against Christ which is the rocke And you know that he will not giue back but breaketh all to fitters whatsoeuer that rusheth against him Io. Whitgifte You do not submit your selues to the order of the Church which is a good and decent order you haue filled the Churche with maruellous contentions and haue strangely deuided euen such as professe the Gospell your mouthes are not stopped but through your owne procuring I do not withstand that which you vntruly call the truth for any such cause as you surmise God who seeth my hart knoweth but bycause I sée these your deuises to be set downe by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God agaynste the practise and order of the primitiue Churche tending also to daungerous errours and meere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth T. C. Page 172. Sect. vlt. And if the matter herein alleadged do not satisfye you then I desire euen before the same GOD that you confute it not by passing ouer thynges whyche you can not answer or by stauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansie to confuce or by wrougling
from God so to doe As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God eyther vpon the Churche or comming towards it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they shoulde sanctifie a generall faste and proclayme ghnatsarah whiche signifieth 2. Ioel. a prohibition or forbydding of ordinary works is the same Hebrue worde wherwith those feast days are noted in the law wherin they should rest the reason of which comaundement of the Lorde was that as they abstayned that day as much as myght be conueniently from meate so they myght abstayne from their dayly workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the worde of God and humbling them selues in the congregation confessyng their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from his fearce wrath In this case the Churche hauing commaundement to make a holyday maye and oughte to doe it as the Churche whiche was in Babilon dyd during the time of their captiuitie But where it is destitute of a commaundemente it may not presume by any decree to restrayne that libertie which the Lorde hath giuen Io. Whitgifte When you are conuinced by manyfest Scripture as you are in this matter then you flye to your newly deuised distinctions as you do in this place saying The Lord whiche gaue this generall lawe might make as many exceptions as he thought good but to no purpose for you can not shewe in the whole Scripture where God hath made any lawe or ordinance agaynst his owne commaundement And surely in this poynte you haue greatly ouershotte your selfe béeing content rather to graunt contrarietie to be in the Scripture than to yéelde to a manyfest and knowne truthe The Church in appoynting holydayes dothe followe the example of God him selfe and therefore Tract 2. hath sufficient ground and warrant for hir doings and of the authoritie of the Church No mans libertie restreyned in such matters I haue spoken in an other place And I haue also a little before declared what kinde of libertie the Church may not restrayne and I adde that euery priuate mans consent is in the consent of y e Church as it is in the consent of the Parliament The Replyer bringeth authoritie against hym selfe therfore no mans libertie otherwise restrained than he hath cōsented vnto That in the seconde of the Prophet Ioell maketh agaynst you directly for it sheweth that vpon iuste occasion the Churche maye inhibite men from labour euen in the sire dayes notwithstanding it be sayde Sixe dayes thou shalte labour c. And to The Iewes aponynted to them selues holy dayes ▪ the intente no man shoulde doubte of the libertie of the Churche héerem or of the practise of this libertie let the nynthe chapter of Esther be perused and therein it will appeare that in remembrance of their great deliuerie from the treason of Haman the Iewes by the commaundement of Mordecai did solemnize and kéepe holydaye the fourtenth and fyftenth daye of the moneth Ader euery yeare But if neyther the ordinances of God himselfe nor the wordes of his Prophetes nor the examples of hys Apostles nor the practise of his Churche from the beginning wil take any place with you you are no man for me to deale with ¶ Of Sainctes dayes Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 120. Sect. vlt. Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holydays I come vnto the Apostles and other saincts dayes whiche are kepte wyth vs. And thoughe it were lawfull for the Churche to ordayne holydayes to our sauiour Christe or to the blessed Trinitie yet it is not therefore lawfull to institute holydayes to the Apostles and other Samctes or to their remembrance For althoughe I confesse as muche as you saye in the. 153. page that the Churche of Englande dothe not meane by this keeping of holydayes that the Saincts shoulde be honoured or as you alleage in 175. and 176. pages that with vs the Saincts are not prayed vnto or that it dothe propounde them as meritorious yet that is not inoughe For as we reason agaynst the Popishe purgatorie that it is therefore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any tyme for the dead (a) Argum. ab auth ritate nogatiue so may it be reasoned agaynst these holydayes ordeyned for the remēbrance of the Saincts that for so much as the olde people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holyday for y e remēbrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other howe holy or excellent soeuer they were nor the Apostles nor the Churches in their time neuer ▪ instituted any eyther to keepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the Uirgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them now and this attempte by the Churches whiche followed whiche haue not suche certayne and vndoubted interpreters of the will of God as the Prophetes and Apostles were whiche liued in those Churches is not without some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those things whiche the Primitiue Churche in the Apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God than they that followed them had durst not venter vpon Io. Whitgifte Purgatorie is made a matter of saluation or damnation as all other doctrines of the Popes be and therfore a negatiue reason suche as you vse is sufficient inoughe to improue it But holydayes in our Churche haue no suche necessitie ascribed vnto them onely they are thought very profitable to the edifying of Gods people and therefore suche negatiue reasons preuayle not agaynst them no more than they doe agaynst other constitutions of the Church perteyning to edifying order or comelynesse wherof there is no mention made in the worde of God And therefore nothing that is héere spoken by you can take any holde Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Neyther are they called by the name of any Sainct in any other Why y e name of Sainctes are giuen to our holidays respecte than that the Scriptures whiche that daye are read in the Churche be concerning that Sainct and conteyne eyther hys calling preaching persecution martyrdome or suche like T. C. Pag. 121. Sect. 1. Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hathe to cause men to thinke so of euery thing as it is named and therefore althoughe you saye in the. 175. page that in calling these holydayes the dayes of suche or suche a Saincte there is nothyng else inent but that the Scriptures whiche are that daye read concerne that Saincte and conteyne eyther his calling preaching persecution Martyrdome c. yet euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche For besides that the corrupte custome of Popery hathe carryed their myndes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the daye teacheth otherwyse For seeing that by the dayes dedicated
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient