some Prophets some Euangelistes some Pastors and Doctors for the repayring of the Saintes for the worke and the Ministerie and for the edification of the body of Christ. And againe vppon these wordes A Bishop must be vnreproueable c. hee meeteth with the common obiection for the equalitie of Ministers because euery Minister is called a Bishope sometimes in the Scriptures and sayth that the word Bishoppe notwithstanding it be oftentimes vsed by S. Paule for euery pastor of the church of God who haue a kinde of ouersight ouer theyr seuerall charges and so may suo modo after a sort bee called Superintendents and Bishops c. yet heere it signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Primarios illos ecclesiarum pastores c. Those chiefe pastors to whom the ouersight of the liues and manners of the other ministers is committed whom according to the force of the Greeke appellation we in these dayes do call Superintendents Hitherto then it appeareth as I take it what is both the practise of the reformed Churches in Germany and the iudgemēt also of the chiefe learned men there since Melanchthon Bucers times concerning Bishops or Superintendents with their preheminence charge and authoritie Some there are indeed beyond the seas who followinge the immoderate proude and slaunderous humor that Melanchthon Camerarius spake of before haue vttered their great mislike of the Germaine Superintendents and that with lesse modestie a great deale then doth well become them In reproofe of one of them Gerlachius a learned man of Tubing writeth in this sort Licet titulos ordinum c. Although thou beholdest with disdaine as it were from aboue the titles of orders after the fashion of hypocrites and of the Anabaptistes yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge foolish arrogancye whereby thou contemnest our countrymen in respect of thy selfe and dost chalenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely Plus turges quà m omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri Thou swellest more with pride then all our Doctors and Superintendents And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of ministers as though it were not lawfull to ordayne such degrees for the building and gouernment of the Church Did not God himselfe in the old Testament appoint a chiefe Bishop Priests and Leuits And in the new Testament gaue hee not some Apostles some Prophets some Euangelists and some Pastors and Doctors Had not the primatiue church accordingly Bishops Priestes and Deacons And againe a little after in the same booke whilest thou a proude man girdest so often at the title of Superintendent I affirme that thou reprehendest the Apostle Paule himselfe who hath giuen this name to a distinct order of ministers of the church And our Auncestors following this Apostle haue thought it meete that for the edifying of the church and for orders sake there should be certaine Superintendentes that is ouerseers not onely of the flocke but of the nisters in like manner Thus farre Gerlachius who if hee were in England knewe into what an extremitie the like persons are growen vnto in the same case amongst vs It would peraduenture moue him For nowe there is no remedye with our ministers of that consorte but they must all bee equall They cannot endure it no the meanest of them to haue anye of their owne coate their Superior They are fallen into the contradiction of Chors and doe tell both Moyses and Aaron that they take to much vpon them All Pastores saye they are and ought to be of equall authoritie in their seuerall Parishes and no one to haue power ouer another Euery parish Priest with them must bee a Bishop and haue as full iurisdiction in his Parochiall dioces as it is lawful for any Bishop in the world either to haue or to execute For orders sake they are content that in their Classicall prouinciall or Nationall assemblies some one minister bee chosen from amongst thēselues to be the moderator for the propounding of matters gathering of voices c. But his office preheminence is to continew no longer then whilest those assemblies last Otherwise or for any further authoritie either of Bishops or Archbishops whether they haue abolished popery reformed religiō maintained the gospell abandoned superstitiō or whatsoeuer they haue done or yealded vnto they holde it altogether vnlawfull do raile against them all against their callings and against all that defend them and that with more then heathenish scurrilitie Cartwright is the chiefe man that began this course in Englande and you shall see howe pretily his schollers follow him Archbishops Bishops sayth he are new ministeries neuer ordayned by God The first step to this kind of Bishopricke beganne at Alexandria and not at Syon The name and office of an Archbishop is vnlawfull his function is of the earth and so can do no good but much harme in the church he is a knobbe or some lumpe of flesh which being no member of the body doth burthen it and disgrace it Whereupon foorth come his schollers crying out amaine that Archbishops Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ and that they mayme and deforme his body making it by that meanes a monster That they are vnlawfull false bastardly gouernors of the church That they are the ordinances of the Diuell That they are in respect of theyr places enemies of God that they are petye Popes pety Antichristes Bishops of the Diuell and incarnate Diuels that none euer defended this gouernmēt of our Bishops but Papists and such as were infected with Popish errours That the Lawes that mayntaine the Archbishops and Bishops are no more to bee accounted of then the Lawes that mayntaine Steves and that the true church of God ought to haue no more to do with them and their Synagogues then with the Synagogue of Sathan All which Consistorian and modest assertions aswell for the equalitie of Ministers as against the calling of Bishops being ioyned together are wholy opposite to all that which hitherto I haue writt̄e touching this matter Euen as though they should haue cast downe their gauntlets proclaymed an vtter defiance to all the Churches that euer were established in the world for much aboue three thousande yeares the Churches whilest the law continued the churches in Christs time the Churches in his Apostles times the Churches throughout all christendome for a thousand fiue hundred yeares against all the generall Councels all the auncient fathers all ecclesiasticall histories against al the chiefe reformers of religon in this latter age against all the learned mens iudgements before mentioned and against all the reformed churches whersoeuer in christ̄edome that eyther haue BB. or Superint̄edents God forgiue th̄e this great sin of pride presumption deliuer th̄e out of the number of those of wh̄o it is said that their mouthes speake proud things that they dispise gouernment that they
A SVRVAY OF THE PRETENDED Holy Discipline Contayning the beginninges successe parts proceedings authority and doctrine of it with some of the manifold and materiall repugnances varieties and vncertaineties in that behalfe Faithfully gathered by way of historicall narration out of the bookes and writinges of principall fauourers of that platforme Anno 1593. They would be Doctors of the Law and yet vnderstand not what they speake neither whereof they affirme 1. Tim. 1.7 Sententias vestras prodidisse superasse est Hier. ad Ctesiph adu Pelag c. 4. To acquaint you with their discipline is to ouerthrow it Imprinted at London by Iohn Wolfe 1593. TO THE READER THere are many in England I perceiue that are so addicted vnto their own opinions as concerning the pretended holy Discipline and such a reformation as they themselues haue deuised that they cannot with anie patience endure to heare either contradiction or argument to the contrarie I knowe some of them saith a certaine aduertiser touching the controuersies of the Church of England that would thinke it a tempting of God to heare or read what might bee saide against them as if they could be at quod bonum est tenete without an omnia probate going before Which maner of persons the Prophet Dauid resembleth vnto the deafe Adder that stoppeth his eare and will not heare the voyce of the inchaunter though he be expert in charming S. Augustine writing vpon these wordes saith that the serpent delighting in the darknesse wherewithall hee hath inclosed himselfe clappeth one of his eares very hard to the ground and with his taile stoppeth the other least hearing the Marso he should be brought forth to the light And so do a great number of these Serpentine persons whereof the aduertiser made mention they stop one of their eares so hard with earth that is with a most insatiable and greedy desire of riches and the other with their tayles whereby saith Aug posterior a intelliguntur that is with a sacrilegious hope that hereafter vnder pretence of setting vppe theyr discipline they may come to the massacre and spoyle of the Church and will fleere and Ieere much against theyr own consciences god knoweth when any inchaunter or Marso assayleth either by wordes or writinge to charme them With these men or any else whose hartes are thus possessed eyther with this earth and hope or with any other such like poison for what respects soeuer I haue nothing here to doe but onely to pray for them that god mollifying their preiudiciall and obstinate mindes they may be content first to beholde and then with humility to acknowledge the truth There is an other sorte both of the Clergy and laitye who notwithstanding they fauour the pretended discipline euen with singlenesse of hart and in good earnest I am perswaded as supposing it to be the Lordes owne workemanship holy institution yet forasmuch as they do very well know that many dishes are washed cleane on the outside and yet are foule within that many sepulchers are gorgious to the eies and yet inwardly haue nothing in them but bones and corruption that men may be often times deceiued with shewes and probabilities as allwayes heretofore many haue beene and that there are no spirits of any prophets in our dayes which ought not to be subiect to the spirites of other prophets they will be pleased I trust to yeald themselues vnto the Apostolicall rules of trying of all thinges and not bee caried away either with rashnesse or preiudice to belieue any spirit vntil they haue tried it throughly whether it be of god In the behalfe of these men and for their sakes especially I haue presumed to offer vnto their wise and indifferent consideration such simple notes and obseruations as I had formerly gathered when according to the said rules of the Apostles by occasion of the great opinion which beganne to growe of the Geneua-forme of ecclesiasticall discipline I was bold to try and examine it according to the measure of such small ability and iudgement as god hath indued me withall Whereby if either they or any other shall reape anye profit to the establishing of their mindes in this giddy age from running vppe and downe after euery young start-vp hether and thether to secke new platformes of Church-gouernment in this place or that place when as we haue one of our owne which is in my conscience truely Apostolicall and farre to be preferred before any other that is receiued this day by any reformed Church in Christendome I shall thinke my paynes well bestowed nay I shall bee right glade in my hart and allwayes most thankefull vnto allmightie god for it Otherwise if by reason of such weakenes and infirmities as I do acknowledge to bee in my selfe to haue shewed themselues in euery parte of this Treatise there shall any offence bee taken that may blast or hinder the sayde fruite which I doe indeede most earnestly desire I cannot choose but bee very sory for it satisfyinge my selfe in the meane time notwithstanding that in the whole processe following the contents whereof you may see in the next pages I haue set downe nothing which I doe not thinke I haue set down truly Liberaui animam meam I haue therein discharged my conscience and so I committe you to God The Contents of this Booke How vnder pretence of the Prophets loue to Syon some men would gladly set vp their owne fancies Cap. 1. fol. 1. How by whom where the platforme of Presbytery discipline was first deuised and established Cap. 2. fol. 7. By whose instigation and how the pretended Discipline of Geneua hath enlarged her iurisdiction Cap. 3. fol. 41. Our English Geneuaters vpon a better inquirie made are growne to a great vncertaintie touching sondry poyntes of the Geneuian platforme Cap. 4. fol. 60. With what distraction vncertaintie diuersitie of iudgements pretence is made that the Geneua Discipline is of verye great antiquitie Cap. 5. fol. 70. The seekers of the pretended Discipline are not yet agreede what name they should giue vnto theyr Hierarchicall parish-meetings Cap. 6. fol. 88. Of theyr vncertaynty concerning the places where this pretended regiment should be erected Cap. 7. fol. 96. Of Bishops generally of the pretended equalitie of Pastors or new parish-bishops and how the chief impugners of Bishops beginne to relent Cap. 8. fol. 104. They disagree very greatly concerning Doctors Cap. 9. fol. 144. Their Aldermen must be men of good calling Cap. 10. fol. 154 Theyr disagreement about the name of their ruling Associates Cap. 11. fol. 156. They cannot agree where to finde theyr Elders qualities described Cap. 12. fol. 162. Of theyr vncertainty whether their Elders be ecclesiasticall men or lay-men Cap. 13. fol. 170. Theyr disagreement concerning the continuance of their Elders in theyr office Cap. 14. fol. 174 Their vncertainty where to finde the particular offices of theyr Aldermen Cap. 15. fol. 177. Of their Aldermens ioynt-office with the Ministers in the election abdication
Booke of Discipline were corrected altered and amended and there they did not onely perfect the said Booke but also did then and there as the examinate remembred voluntarily agree amongest thēselues that so many as would should subscribe to the saide Booke of Discipline after that time Well then at the last I trust we haue found out what they are agreede vppon and what they will stand vnto You see there hath beene much plotting amongest them and it is time a man would thinke that after such stirres meetinges conferences and Synods made in that behalfe they should be resolued at the last of the things they desire But now I come to my wonder before mentioned for so I esteeme of it Cartwright and the chiefest of those that haue beene lately in prison in one of their foresaide examinations in the Starre-chamber doe plainely auouch it vppon their oathes and so I belieue them that there are some thinges in theyr saide draught of Discipline wherein as yet they were neuer resolued What Is neither Geneua Fraunce nor Scotland able to satisfie them Haue they sought vnto them for theyr opinions and doe they disdaine to make them any aunswere Or else thinke they scorne to aske councell of any men but had rather then they woulde so much discredite themselues dwell still in their doubts Surely I would be very glad to know what doubts these were wherein as yet they were neuer resolued I haue desired diuerse to haue told me of them but they would not Notwithstanding I will tell you what I gesse they were not at randon as they say but vppon some good probability I met by chaunce with a paper of no mean mans among them wherein as I take it some of them at the least are expressed and they are these following Whether there ought to be Doctors in euery Church Whether the Doctors may administer the sacraments Whether there ought to be women Deacons in euery reformed Church Whether the Presbitery be not described too generally obscurely and very imperfectly Whether suspension may be proued by the worde of God Whether suspension can be proued to be a censure of the Church Whether the Elders ought not to be perpetuall as the Pastors are Whether men must stand to the sentence of the greater part of the Consistorie Whether mariages and spousals and things concerning them doe belong to the ministers Whether there should be sureties in Baptisme Whether there ought to be no abstaining from or noting of such a one as for disobedience to the Consistories admonition is in the way of excommunication Vnto these quaerees I could adde some other if I list What if Beza himselfe beginne to doubt as concerning his Discipline or at the least beginne to finde some defectes in it What if he desire to be caput Episcoporum the head of all Bishops within his prouince what if hee would haue the presidentship of euery Synode to be a continuall office But hereof afterwardes in the chapter In the meane while I could wishe with all my heart that those who are wise would throughly consider howe this Church of England and the state of the whole Realme her Maiestie the high Court of Parliament the present forme of our Ecclesiasticall gouernement with the lawes and orders thereunto appertaining and generally all her highnesse dutifull and louing subiects haue been vsed by these so distracted so presumptuous and so notorious rash-pates in that after so many admonitions supplications petitions deprauations inuections humble motions draughts platformes demonstrations and what not which haue bred alreadie a million of great inconueniences and mischiefes Now being pressed vpon their othes they are constrained to acknowledge that as yet they are not resolued in all pointes what they woulde haue If the state had been as rashe in their grauntes as they haue been shamelesse in their demaunds peraduenture the Realme and Church of England by this time might haue been in some such like case as if sondry reportes be true there be some in the world It may be heere obiected peraduenture that supposing the testimony alleadged for the doubtes mentioned were sufficient yet they are but about matters of small importance whereas in points of substance they doe all concurre and are agreed together Whether the doubts which I shewed vnto you be of any importance or not I leaue it to your consideration Indeede if a man may say the truth without their offence there is nothing which they holde concerning this Allobrogicall deuise wherein we do withstand them that is of any good importance of substance But for any agreement or resolution in any of the partes of their platforme whether of substance almost or not of substance you shall not finde it I assure you amongst them as in the processe following it wil appeare And I am of opinion that they will disagree euery day more and more vntil by triall of their former rashnesse they shalbe contented to embrace the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement in England and from the bottome of their heartes thanke almightie God for it CHAP. V. With what distraction vncertaintie diuersitie of iudgementes pretence is made that the Geneua Discipline is of very great antiquitie AS I haue said in the second chapter if my life lay vppon it I could not finde that there was euer in the world anie such platforme of Discipline as is now vrged by the patrones and defenders of it before maister Caluin deuised it and with much trouble set it vp at the last in Geneua I know it is said nowe a dayes that it is of a farre greater antiquitie And if I were not otherwise by reading setled I might peraduenture be ouercarried that way with their pretences The Herroldes at armes they say can do verie much in a mans pedigree Though peraduenture his Gentilitie be not of fiftie yeares standing yet if neede require William Conquerours time is nothing they will fetch it from Adam You shall haue the first finder out Bathes in England so gentilized And euen suche a like course is taken for the Geneua Discipline She must needes be a Lady of an auncient stocke And therefore her feed Herroldes do take great paines in her behalfe Such chopping and changing such clayming and disclaiming of kinreds such coating intercoating quartering of her armes with this great personage in that countrey and with another as great in this countrey you shall rarely finde I am verely perswaded in all the auncient recordes and rules of Herrauldry To leape ouer a thousand and fiue hundred yeares at the first skippe ouer almost two thousand yeares at the next and in a manner to Noahs Arke at the third is but a small matter with them There was neuer poore gentlewomans credite more sought to be set foorth with the smoakie images of her worm-aten auncestors then hers is The Geneua platforme to be reckoned so late a deuise as that maister Caluin should be the first author of it they cannot abide it
appeare what minde and iudgement Caluin still carried concerning Bishops so as they would admit the reformation of Religion contrary to Cartwrights shameles assertion that Caluin would haue shakē at the name of an Archbishop and haue trembled at the office of a Bishop For in the articles agreede vppon at that time by the saide learned men Caluin being amongest them for a reconciliation in the behalfe of the Protestants thus they declared theyr iudgements of this matter Vt omnia ordine fierent in Ecclesia c. That all things might be done orderly in the Church according to S. Pauls rule c. For the auiding of Schismes there was a profitable ordination that a Bishop should be chosen out of many Priests who should rule the Church by teaching the Gospel and by retaining the Discipline qui praeesset ipsis Presbyteris and who should gouerne the Priestes themselues Afterward also there were degrees made of Archbishops aboue them of Patriarches c. These ordinations if those that gouerne do theyr duty as preach ouersee the doctrine and manners of their Churches correct errors and vice practise Ecclesiasticall censures c. are profitable to preserue the vnity of the Church And againe in their additions to the sayde Articles As concerning ordination we especially approoue the auncient custome of the Church that those that are to be ordained should first bee tried instructed and vppon the publicke testimony of some godly and learned men c. admitted into the Ministery This difficult and necessary charge for the Church it is to bee wished reformatiō being made that the Bishops would take vpon them And we heare that our learned men haue expressely so yeelded ordination vnto those Bishops si praecedat reformatio if first there may be a reformation Likewise also in another treatise that was then made by Maister Bucer with the aduise of the said learned men and offered to the Emperour it is thus written Annitendum est c. We must indeuour that that forme and distribution of Ecclesiasticall gouernement which the Cannons doe prescribe to Bishops and Metropolitanes be restored and kept And after in the same Treatise Concerning names and titles and all those things wherewithall that externall power and dignity ought to be adorned and established and the lawfull obedience of such as be vnder them confirmed it will easily be agreed vpon Much more passed in those Colloquies and treatises to this purpose Caluin himselfe as it hath beene sayd being then present and in company whith those learned men And the reasons that moued them so to offer agree and protest at that time in this behalfe I thinke besides the former reasons mentioned were these and such like which Bucer a principall man then amongest them hath else-where sette down When speaking of Bishops and Metropolitanes and of their authoritye ouer the Churches and ministers within their Dioces and Prouinces hee saith thus Hoc consentiebat legi Christs fiebatque ex iure corporis Christi This was agreeable to the law of Christ and was done by the authority of the body of Christ. And in another place I am ex perpetua c. Now by the perpetuall obsexuation of all Churches euen from the Apostles times we doe see that it seemed good to the holy Ghost that amongest Priests to whom the procuration of Churches was chiefly cōmitted there should be one that should haue the care or charge of diuerse Churches and the whole Ministery committed vnto him and by reason of that charge he was aboue the rest and therfore the name of Bishop was attributed peculiarly vnto these chief rulers of Churches Nay he goeth further and sayth that in the Apostles times one of the Priests or Pastors was chosen and ordained to be the Captaine and Prelate ouer the rest who went before the rest and had the cure of Soules and the administration of the Episcopall office especially in the highest degree And this he proueth by the example of S. Iames Act 15. after concludeth in this sort The like ordination hath beene perpetually obserued in other Churches likewise as farre as we may learne out of all the Ecclesiasticall histories and the most auncient Fathers as Tertullian Cyprian Irenaeus Eusebius and others Hereby then it may appear vnto you what was thought of Bishops of their authority by the learned men of those times who sought as narrowly into that calling what was lawfull and what was vnlawfull and were aswell able to iudge thereof I may speake it I trust without offence as either Carwright or all his complices There were some busie bodies indeede a little before or about the time of the Colloquies mētioned who were very angry with the sayd learned men especially with Melanchthon for yeelding so much concerning Bishops Of whom he himselfe writeth in this sort Hoc malè habet scilicet quosdam immoderatiores c. This forsooth doth anger some immoder at men that the iurisdiction and pollicy Ecclesiastical is restored interpreting the same to be the restitution of the Romish souerainty And thus also to Luther you do not belieue into what hatred I am growen with them of Noricum and with certain others for the restitution of iurisdiction vnto Bishops Ita de regno suo non de Euangelio dimicant socij nostri Our fellowes doe so fight for their own kingdome and not for the Gospell Camerarius to the same purpose in like maner maketh this report Audiui quosdā c. I haue heard some accuse Phillip in that respect inhumanissimè most barbarously when one of them said that if he had beene hired with a great summe of money by the Romane faction to haue defended their state he could not in his opinion haue dealt more effectually for them then he did in maintaining of Bishops and that Phillip was not to be accounted a Patrone of his owne part but of his aduersaries and that a chiefe and a singular Patrone c. These things diuers other more slanderous they vttered without shame quorum magnopere postea paenituit puduit plaerosque Whereof many afterwards repented and were ashamed of them But notwithstanding all these and such like slaunderous hare-braines the grauer sort the best learned the godliest and the wisest men amongest the Protestants that then liued did follow and proceede as Phillip had begun euen accordingly as before I haue mentioned And since that time for any thing I can find to the contrary although the bishops still cleauing to the Pope and opposing themselues against all kinde of reformation further then it pleased them were thereupon euen of necessitie reiected as before I haue signified yet as soone as the saide learned men grewe to be able to establish their churches in any reasonable maner they ordained amongest themselues the very same offices in effect throughout the most of the reformed Churches in Germanie chaunging onely the old Greeke names as
the Church committed So as then these parochiall Doctors were cleane out of request And is not this the lightnes and fleshly minde which the Apostle renounceth in that they come thus vnto vs with yea and nay But as yet you see not all the vncertainties follies iarres squaringes and contradictions which I finde about this matter Iunius saith that of doctors some were prophets some were doctors Beza he holdeth that S. Pauls meaning was to diuide Prophets into Pastors doctors Whose diuisions or opinions cannot both bee true if the rules of diuisiō be duly obserued For by the first euery prophet is a doctor and by the second euery doctor is a prophet Furthermore as Iunius very cunningly will draw both a prophet and a doctor out of a doctor as Beza wringeth the doctor out of the prophet so Trauerse he can fetch him out of a Bishop Of Bishops saith he some are pastors and some are doctors By whose extraction euery Geneua school-master that teacheth but petits is now become a Bishop And peraduenture I doe espie his pollicie in it A great while it went vnchecked amongst them for an Ecclesiastical canon as though the king of Persia had made it that a Doctor was inferior to the Pastor and to holde the second place But since it was better considered of wisely foreseene that Cartwright some others might more safely take vpon them the office of doctors thē of pastors who are tied more strictly to the obseruation of diuers ceremonies they seeme to mee to bee quite come about and to assigne the first place mentioned vnto the Doctor so no maruaile if they make him a Bishop The office of teaching saith the learned discourser is the chiefe principal office in the church And afterward The office of a Doctor is to teach With whom the godly Sermoner seemeth to agree when he saith Mans soule hath two parts vz. reason or the minde and the hart or the affection By the fall of Adam there is darknes in the mind and rebellion in the hart Now the Lord to cure these diseases hath giuen remedie to his Church First a Doctor to teach vs and then a Pastor to exhort vs c. And Fenner-likewise doth place the Doctor before the Pastor But of this matter I haue no great regard whether soeuer goeth first as proud commeth after And peraduenture they haue some way to shift it I will not therfore stand greatly vppon it especially hauing some other of their Doctoral points to aduertise you of which are of greater importaunce For as yet they are not agreed for any thing I can find whether their Doctors in that they are Doctors bee Ministers to take as wee commonly speake the cure and charge of soules vpon them in particular parishes or not In the whole treatise of the discipline of Fraunce the rules and orders sette downe for making of Ministers doe belong altogether vnto such as our men tearme Pastors And the same course is also held in the seruice booke of Scotland But most plaine it is in the generall Synode of Hage vz. that Doctors are not such Ministers where hauing set downe after the newest fashion the foure functions left vs as they say by Christ vz. Pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons it presently followeth in this manner Nemo sine legitima vocatione c. No man ought to take vpon him to preach or administer the sacraments without a lawfull calling although he be a Doctor an Elder or a Deacon Whereby it appeareth as I said that their Doctors in some places beyond the seas are no Ministers without some further calling And yet our English reformers are generally of another iudgement making Ministers of the worde to comprehend aswell Doctors as Pastors as it appeareth in all their seuerall treatises I will not quote any other places than their subscribed new draught of discipline and their Captaines resolution that the officers mentioned Ephes. 4. were all of them assuredly Ministers of the word Lastly if they should bee able in time to compasse this point that their Doctors by vertue of that calling might goe for such Ministers yet a new controuersie thereupon ariseth not inferiour to any of the rest vz. whether it appertaineth to these kinde of Ministers of the word to be Ministers also of the sacraments Caluin thinketh that this is a part of the difference betweene the Pastor and the Doctor Quod Doctores nec disciplinae nec sacramentorū administrationi praesunt That Doctors haue neither to deale with the discipline ' nor with the administration of sacraments But Cartwright little esteeming Caluins iudgement in this matter is most earnest to the contrary who grounding himself as he would seem vpon diuers reasons examples and authorities giueth out these Oracles The Ministers of the word sacraments cannot be pulled in sunder It is a perpetuall ordinance that the same should bee the Ministers of the worde and sacraments These wordes are plaine inough to expresse a mans mind But you may not giue any faith vnto him For as I suppose hee hath altered his iudgement And yet if you will peruse the place you shall not finde him more peremptorie in any one point throughout all his writings In the new draught of discipline wherunto he hath subscribed it is thus defined The Church-officers are first the Ministers of the worde c. And those are Pastors Qui doctrinam sacramenta administrant Who administer doctrine and the sacraments or Doctors Qui versantur in sana doctrina docenda conuincendis erroribus Who are occupied in teaching of wholesome doctrine and in confuting of errors And thus his second sort of Ministers of the word is quite debarred and cut off from the administration of the sacraments Not to gratifie I suppose either Caluin or the truth but because it concerneth most their owne present estate For as the Doctor for their sakes began to be aduanced a steppe higher than he was before so is hee now likewise as I imagine in the same respect disburdened of that base office They can finde in their harts to preach but vrge them to administer the sacraments and their common answere is this we haue nothing to doe with that duetie it belongeth to the Pastors and we are Doctors The matter is they will not obserue the orders of the Church in the administration of sacramentes whereupon it is now come to passe that there may bee certaine Ministers of the worde who haue not authoritie to administer the sacramentes But let them goe They haue not written truth in the tables of their harts and therefore she hath forsaken them CHAP. X. Their Aldermen must be men of good calling AS concerning the number of these pretended rulers there will bee a more fitte place to speake of that hereafter Now you shall first knowe what manner of men they must bee In most parishes of England no doubt but
Pope to him-selfe But I will leaue these immodrate and forraine dotages specifie vnto you some of our domesticall I confesse to you saith the displayer of men in their colloures I reuerence D. Fulke and no disparagement vnto any I thinke him vniuersally as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was And in an other place Put it to the censure of D. Fulke D. Whittakers Maister Cartwright c. Men I hope as well able to iudge as all the L. Bishops in christendome Againe No question but Caluin and Beza are wide sometimes Also afterwarde The verie ornaments of your vniuersitie indeede whose verie names and liues doe carry with them aestimation to bee reuerenced D. Fulke D. Goade D. Whittakars to these men I appeale And furthermore If wee should once or twise and vse it not set D. Fulkes learned iudgement against the bare authoritie of Caluin and Beza in this case I doe not see that it be any great preiudice or disparagement vnto any Diuerse other such like speeches there are in that booke whereby a man may see how the brethren are affected vnto their parte-takers Although he nameth some who will neuer thanke him for it and I supose hee hath done them great iniurie in making them to seeme the patrones of such fancies as there are mainetained I made mention before of Cartwrights place amongst certaine disciplinary worthies But my meaninge is not so to passe him ouer whom all the rest of our men doe soe admire His authoritie in deede is very great as being in effecte the Patriarche of them all Those thinges that he writeth are almost oracles Happye is the brother that canne come in his companie If hee bee in prison prayers are made for his deliueraunce if hee bee deliuered great thankes are publickely giuen vnto god for the same If hee commaund the rest obey if hee shall relent I thinke they will all relent When great matters are to bee handled he must needs be one in euery place Couentry Cambrdige London c. And vppon any new accidents the occurrents are caried to him as to their chiefest counsaylor Salute our most reuerent brother maister Cartwright for whome prayers are made with vs. As soone as I knowe of maister Cartwrightes deliuery I sent for maister Trauers and we had psalmes of thankesgiuing prayers to the same purpose and a sermon his text being the 20 of Ieremie 10.11.12.13.14 verses I percciue by those imperfect writinges of maister Cartwrightes and others that the pointes of reformation are at large and particularly debated Wee want bookes whereby wee may come to the knowledge of the truth I meane T. C. bookes The forme of gouernment set down by T. C. is commanded by god I thanke god I haue satisfied in part my longing with conference with M. Cartwright of whom I thinke as she did of Solomon I would gladly knowe when I might come from Oxford to London to see T.C. Maister Snape vpon one of his examinations before her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical findinge some matters to haue bene further disclosed then he looked for presently directed his letters thereof into the countrey mouing his frend that maister Cartwright might be aduertised It were good saith he you sent to T.C. with speed I would gladly heare whether T. C. did councell you or demaund councell of you I wish the matter maye bee well and closly handled For I heare some whispering allready yet among them that fauour the cause that he hath councelled the brethren rather to vse those corruptions then to leaue their charges I wish and hope it be not so not onely least men should iudge the man to be inconstant but especially for that these times be such that in them such yealding will doe no good Maister D. Bridges hauing occasion in his writinges to name Maister Cartwright did forget to carry this word M. vnder his girdle but called him plainly Cartwright Wherat see how maister Trauerse repineth Wee acknowledge and reuerence maister Cartwright as his rare guiftes of knowledge zeale his learned works constant suffering in this cause and at this time his continuall trauell in preaching the Gospell doe worthely deserue for which cause hee was worthy other respect then the replier here doth giue him If hee would needes set downe his name hee shoulde haue considered the example of the Apostle who yet seldome or neuer mentioneth any minister of the Gospell by name yea scarse anye professor without some good marke of the grace of god in them But this and a great deale more both hee and whosoeuer shall serue god as they ought in this cause of the further reformation of the Church must account to endure of them that oppose themselues to this most necessary seruice I had lately some speach with Maister Cartwright concerning our next meeting who aduised me to put you in mind of some thinges c. Hee saith that at your late being together at Wroxall you determined our nexte meetinge to bee at Warwicke at the quarter Sessions that twesday for the humbling of our selues and the day following to consult of other matters His request is that you will giue notice thereof vnto the brethren of our conference and also that by your meanes there may bee some of vs appointed to exercise in priuate that day If this his request connot conueniently bee performed then I take it necessary thot you write so with some speede to M. Cartwright that hee may prouide a remedie else where M. May and I ridde with M. Cartwright to M. Throgmortons two miles out of Warwicke where hee preached more he sayde then euer he did in his life before c. On tuesday M. Cartwright kept M. Fens lecture text psalme 122. 4. vnto the ende takinge thrones as Tremellius doth and vrginge the discipline the want wherof hee affirmed to bee the cause that some friendes forsooke our church and enemies as Papistes would not come neere her I pray you remember to reserue for mee one of the rare birds bookes his name may bee right Cartwright God bee praised though hee cannot speake vnto vs yet accordinge to his name hee doth write He is a worthy wight Sicut discipuli olim presto habuerunt ipsum Dominum ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo presentem as the disciples in times past had the Lord himselfe amongst them so I haue M. Cartwright my Lord in presence with me And thus hetherto of these poore simple but yet most palpable parasites The disciplinarie crue a company of Apostles and Cartwright their Christe Christe amongste his Apostles and Cartwright amongst his Disciples If Cartwright and such other guides were not supposed by their followers to bee very notable Thrasoes is it possible that any man of common sence would shewe themselues to bee such flattering Gnathoes And these are the menne for-sooth that in all their
speeches will pretende scriptures But when they haue so done tell them that they peruerte the scriptures to serue their turnes and that thus and thus they must vnderstand them according to the iudgement of all the auncient fathers their aunswere in effecte is this What tell you vs of the auncient fathers Caluin and Beza are the beste expounders of the scriptures Maister Cartwright is a rare birde a worthy wight and as it were Christ himselfe amongest his Apostles They haue taught vs as wee teach they are our fathers who haue begotten in vs a loue and a likinge of the Geneua Discipline and them will wee followe In truth it is pitifull to consider vnto what a height of pride many men are growen It is lesse subiecte to offence to reiect the authoritie of Saint Ierome Saint Augustine or anye of the rest nay to refuse them alltogether then to reiecte the iudgementes eyther of Caluin of Beza or of Cartwright For Maister Caluin and maister Beza I doe thinke of them and of their writinges as they deserue But yet I thinke better of the auncient fathers I must confesse it And for maister Cartwright it is true that hee hath many good partes in him but the ouer-weening which he hath of himselfe and which many besides haue of him is like a lumpe of dowe that sowereth both him and them all You haue heard of what accounte his writinges are with his sectaries insomuch that one of them saith in effecte both for himselfe and for his brethren that without Cartwrightes bookes they cannot come to the knowledge of the truth Cartwrights bookes the way to the truth To speake my conscience they are the waye to manye grosse errors and seditious fancies Of all his bookes I woulde thinke that should beare the price which containeth the iustification of all his deuises and is the last frutes of that Worthies wit I meane his second reply Touching the which booke you shall heare maister Doctor Whitakers opinion from whence especially if some one or two ioyned with him the layer out of men in colours as it hath been sayd will not hastily appeale Thus hee writeth Quem Cartwrightus nuper emisit libellum eius magnam partem perlegi Ne viuam si quid vnquam viderim dissolutius ac penè puerilius Verborum satis ille quidem lautam ac nouam supellectilem habet rerum omnino nullam quantum ego iudicare possum Deinde non modo peruersè de principis in rebus sacris at que ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit sed in papistarum etiam castra transfugit a quibus tamen videri vult odio capitali dissidere Verum nec in hac causa ferendus alijs etiam in partibus tela a papistis mutuatur Denique vt de Ambrosio dixit Hieronimus verbis ludit sententijs dormitat plane indignus est qui a quopiam docto resutetur That is I haue read a great part of that booke which maister Cartwright hath lately published vz this second reply I pray God I liue not if euer I saw any thing more loosely written and almost more childishly It is true that for wordes hee hath great store and those both fine and new but for matter as farre as I can iudge he is altogether barren Moreouer he doth not onely thinke peruersly of the authoritie of Princes in causes ecclesiasticall but also flyeth into the Papistes holdes from whome he would be thought to dissent with a mortall hatred But in this point he is not to be endured and in other partes also hee borroweth his argumentes from the Papistes To conclude as Ierome said of Ambrose hee playeth with wordes and is lame in his sentences and is altogether vnworthy to bee confuted by anie man of learning If anie shall heere obiect that maister Whittakers was not Doctor when hee writ in this sorte My aunswere is this Hee writ this letter about the same time that he beganne to write against Campian when hè had attained alreadie vnto suche ripenesse of iudgement as there is no more daunger hee should nowe be altered in this that hee hath written of Cartwrightes booke then that he should alter heereafter from that trueth which he maintained about the same time against Campian And it is true that hee neuer gaue a righter censure of anie booke in his life Maister Cartwright must content himselfe with it and so must his followers He dependeth himselfe too much vppon Caluin and Beza and so do many amongest vs vppon him Such admiration of mens persons and of their learning must needes be very dangerous It hath euer been the cause of schisme And there was neuer more mischiefe like to grow of it then there is now For I know not how it commeth about but you shall seldome finde any who hath once tasted of the Disciplinary potion that is not forthwith possessed as it were with a wonderfull opinion not onely of the chiefe confectioners and fauourers of it but likewise of themselues And for all other men Fathers Councels newe or olde they little esteeme them if they make any thing against them I might heape vp in this place a number of obseruations which haue been made many hundreth yeares since as concerning suche like courses taken by many and howe they neuer gat to themselues any true reputation thereby but the contrary But I will spare them therein Onely I cannot choose but tell them that the auncient fathers were as wise and learned men as they are that the olde generall Councelles ought to be of as great credite with any but madde men as their conuenticles or Synodes that although wee ought to depend onely vpon the worde of God yet for the interpretation of it we may as safely follow the iudgementes of the auncient fathers of the first generall Councels and of some other learned men as of any of their chiefe patrones and maisters that howsoeuer our owne men doe thinke of themselues yet they are no better then other men Nay there are many equall to the best of them and many who are farre their superiours And I take it that he sheweth himselfe to be their best friendes who by telling them their wantes can bring them to some humilitie In which respect Maister Cartwright is to thanke Doctor Whittakers for signifiyng his iudgement touching that his great bundell of shreddes which some rashe and fond men doe so greatly admire It is most certaine that although the flattering of Parasites doth seeme to bee pleasant yet the woundes of a louer are much more profitable CHAP. XXX How falsly they alleadge the auncient fathers for their pretended parish Bishops and Elders BY that which hath been said in the 5. chapter it appeareth vnto you what litle help they are to look for in the ancient fathers toward the setting forth of the Geneua plat forme They talke of certaine steps traces of that hare in them but more they confesse in some places that they cānot find And yet notwithstanding
name to all ministers of the vvord and sacraments vvithout distinguishing thereby any one of them from another or vvas it not euer vvithin the time limited taken and vsed only in the said distribution for one amongst the ministers of the vvord and sacraments that gouerned the rest both of the ministers and people vvithin their circuits limited vnto them This question with the rest was sent to maister doctor Raynolds in Oxford to the intent he might returne his opinion of them which he forbare at that time to do in respect of certain other businesse that he had in hand Howbeit maister doctor Robinson his especial most familiar friend being acquainted as it seemeth with the sayd questions hath written in this sort vpon another occasion not dissenting therein as I take it from maister doctor Reynolds I haue sayth he mainteined it in the pulpit that the titles of honour vvhich vve giue to bishops are no more repugnant to the vvord of God then it is for vs to bee called vvardens presidents prouosts of colleges And in my iudgement they may vvith as good conscience be gouernours of their diocesse as vve being ministers may be gouernours of colleges of ministers Neither do I thinke that this vvas a late deuised policie For I am persuaded that the angell of the church of Ephesus to vvhom S. Iohn vvriteth vvas one minister set ouer the rest For seeing there vvere many pastors there vvhy should S. Iohn vvrite to the angell of the church of Ephesus and not rather to the angels if there had bene no difference amongst them And if this presidencie had had that fault vvhich is reprooued in Diotrephes as S. Ierome proueth that the Ievves had not corrupted the originall text before Christ his comming Quod nunquam dominus Apostoli qui caetera crimina arguunt in Scribis Phariseis de hoc crimine quod erat maximum reticuissent So I may say neither vvould our sauiour vvho by his seruant reproueth those disorders vvhich he found in the seuen churches haue passed ouer this great fault in silence Therefore as Titus vvas left to reforme the churches throughout the vvbole Iland of Crete so I am persuaded that in other places some of that order of pastors and teachers vvhich is perpetuall in the church euen in the time of the Apostles had a prelacie amongst their bretheren and that this preheminencie is approoued by our sauiour And if vve come any lovver though the vvord Episcopus signifie that care vvhich is required of all in scripture be applied to all that haue charge of soules yet I do not remember any one ecclesiasticall vvriter that I haue read vvherein that vvord doth not import a greater dignitie then is common to all ministers Neither do I thinke that any old vvriter did vnder the name of Bishop meane the pastor of euery parish VVhen the emperors vvere persecutors vve read of seueral elders but neuer of more then one bishop at once in Rome the like is to be sayd of other great cities and the churches neere adioining And to meet vvith that offence vvhich is taken at the name of Archbishop because that name is so appropriated to Christ in scripture that it is no vvhere giuen to any other I take it that there is no substantiall difference betvveene archbishop and archbuilder Either therfore the Apostle offended in taking too svvelling a title vvhen hee called himselfe an archbuilder or cheefe builder or it must be graunted that this title may in some degree be giuen to men vvithout derogation to Christ. And thus farre doctor Robinson with whom if maister doctor Reinolds do agree I see not whither the factioners will turne them for as I take it they will not reiect his opinion They haue bragged much of him indeed and of his iudgement in sundrie of their writings as though he were wholy on their side and that they held nothing but he would iustifie it Howbeit they haue done him therin I doubt not exceeding great iniurie For requitall wherof I would wish him neuer to seeke any other reuenge but to turne them to his booke against Hart where hee hath written his mind as touching this point now in hand In the Church of Ephesus sayth he though it had sundrie elders and pastors he vseth these two words in one signification as by the sentence going before it is manifest to guide it yet amongst those sundrie vvas there one cheefe vvhom our sauiour calleth the angell of the church and vvriteth that to him vvhich by him the rest shâ—uld â—novv And this is he vvhom aftervvards in the primitiue church the Fathers called bishop For c. the name of Bishop common before to all elders and pastors of the church vvas then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him vvho had the presidentship ouer elders Thus are certain elders reproued by Ciprian Bishop of Carthage for receiuing to the communion them vvho had fallen in time of persecution before the bishop had aduised of it vvith them and others Here then you haue two for Oxford touching the language of the ancient fathers when they speake of bishops Now you shal haue a Cambridge mans opinion no moe but of one I tell you at this time marry he shall be such a one as the brotherhood if they bee of the painters mind before mentioned in the chapter may well bee compared with the other two seeing his iudgement is layd in equall ballance there both with Caluins and Bezaes and that without any disparagement vnto them you know whom I mean it is maister doctor Fulke who in his confutation of the Rhemish notes vpon the new testameÌ„t writeth thus Amongst the clergie for order and seemly gouernment there was alwaies one principall to vvhoÌ„ by long vse of the church the name of Bishop or superintendent hath bene applied vvhich roome Titus exercised in Creta Timothie in Ephesus others in other places Therfore although in the scripture a bishop and an elder is of one order and authoritie in preaching the vvord and administration of the sacraments as Hierome doth often confesse yet in gouernmeÌ„t by ancient vse of speech hee is onely called a Bishop vvhich is in the scriptures called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13.17 that is cheefe in gouernment to vvhom the ordination or consecration by imposition of bands vvas alvvaies principally coÌ„mitted c. VVhich most ancient forme of gouernment vvhen Adrius vvould take avvay it vvas noted amongst his other errors Hitherto doctor Fulke so as hereby I trust it may appeare to maister Cartvvrights reproch and to all their shames that shall pretend any authoritie froÌ„ the ancient fathers to impugne the right honorable lawful calling of Bishops not parsons in euery parish but Bishops in their diocesse and prouinces appointed in the Apostlestimes for the right order and gouernment of
out by him wil needs persuade vs that by those elders that are meant in that place such like churchaldermen must be vnderstood as he and his fellowes hâ—ue dreamed of But herein he is not like to haue any good successe For Nicholas Gallasius a Geneuian to the vttermost who hath written a coÌ„mentary vpoÌ„ that booke doth hold it for a certaintie that such elders are vnderstood in that place as did rule the people doctrina et exemplo by doctrine and exaÌ„ple which should rather agree to those that were preachers then to Cartvvrights vntâ—aching elders If this interpretation notwithstanding shal â—ot be thought suâ—ficient to encounter with Cartvvrights then heare further two or three besides Pellicane Simlerus are both of opinion that neither Gallasius preachers nor Cartvvrights aldermeÌ„ are meant there by Moses but indeed such elders as were ciuile gouernors senators princes of the people And vnto these two for an â—speciall aduantage I may ad a surpassing testimony of no common person but such a one as will bring in with him a Rabbin to assist and maintaine as much as he will tell vs. Cornelius Bertram in his booke de politia Iudaica dedicated to Beza printed at Geneua 1580 with his approbation I doubt not writeth a whole chapter of purpose to proue that the said elders were ciuile magistrats Haebreos politiaÌ„ ciuileÌ„ c. That the Hebrewes had a ciuile gouernment in Egypt it appeareth because vvheÌ„ Moses vvas to go into Egypt he had a commandement froÌ„ God that he should go to the elders c. VVho sayth Bertrame vvere the rulers moderators and gouernours of that Aristocraticall common vvealth For the which his iudgement beside sundry reasons of his own there set down he alleageth also the testimonie of Aben Hezra So as now except Cartvvright or his adherents in this point shal hereafter find a more probable likelihood then hitherto he hath brought forth to shew vs their elderships to haue had their being afore the law of Moses both he they may shue the goose by these mens opinions for any helpe they are like to haue for that purpose out of any place in Exodus In very truth the circumstances of those places which he bringeth being conferred with that which is sayd of the same elders in the former chapter are so directly against him as I can but meruaile that euer he durst presume to set downe such a strange assertion vpon so senselesse and childish a supposall And now as concerning the second sort that content theÌ„selues to looke no further for their elderships then vnto Moses time for as much as they haue many mo shewes and pretenses to dim mens sights withall then the former sort haue yet inuented I will take an aduantage which is layd before me for the better opening vnto you of their iarres and disagreements about those places which are brought out of Moses and out of some other parts of the old testament Maister Beza acknowledgeth Caluin for his maister and doth euermore tearme him doctissimum interpretem the most learned interpreter And maister Cartvvright expresseth as much but yet more fully For hee sayth that maister Caluine is the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred vp for the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures which hath bene since the Apostles times In respect of which his excellencie as indeed he was a singular man maister Cartvvright in another place maketh this offer to all in effect that do not like well of the Geneua discipline VVe vvill not refuse sayth he the iudgement of maister Caluin in any matter that vve haue in coÌ„trouersie vvith you Here is surely a faire offer and no man can desire a more direct issue But thinke you a man might safely take it Who is so bold they say as blind baâ—ard Surely as blind as I am I will aduenture vpon it Shall euery thing indeed bee referred to maister Caluins iudgement very well This is then a controuersie betwixt vs. Maister Cartvvright and as many as cleaue vnto him do affirme that the eldership vvas ordained in practise before the lavv We denie it Let maister Caluin be the iudge So likewise I do say againe to as many as depend vpon maister Beza if they will ioine with vs in the same issue as reason is they should maister Caluin being their leaders maister and the most learned interpreter of the scriptures Beza and all such as are tied to his sleeue do hold it as I suppose as an infallible ground for discipline that Moses did institute this pretended eldership which we denie and let maister Caluin be the iudge A number of places are brought out of Moses bookes and out of the Chronicles and Prophets by Beza Cartvvright all their schollers for the proofe of such an eldership to haue bene in those times But we are fully resolued that all those places which they bring for that purpose are wrested from their right meaning and do constantly denie that there was euer any such eldership in being in those times And therein also wee say let maister Caluin be the iudge Although peraduenture there may be diuers that will refuse to stand vpon this triall as attributing more skill in the scriptures to Beza and to themselues then they do vnto maister Caluin yet Cartvvright is surely bound to stand to his offer Now then what Caluins iudgement is in all these points it is necessarie to be considered Surely you haue heard it before in the fift chapter The summe whereof is this that the sayd pretended eldership was neuer thought of in the world till after the captiuitie And the reason why then it was ordained he sayth was this vz. because it was not lawfull for them at that time to create a king As though he should haue said that if the Iewes might haue had a king according to their former custome in times past such a manner of gouernement had neuer bene once thought of Whereas therefore Beza Cartvvright and the rest that contend so eagerly for the Geneuian discipline do fill the margents of their bookes with sundry texts out of the old testament as out of Exod. 4.29 and 17.5 Deut. 1 15. and 17.12.2 Chr. 19.8 Iere. 19 1. Ezech. 8.1 c. where there is speech of elders senates and seates of iustice Maister Caluin you see hath giuen sentence against them and doth in effect with Erastus expound all those elders of the people all those consistories or senats for ought I can find to be ciuile officers and ciuile courts appointed for the ciuile gouernment of that people and nation Besides also in the place of Leuiticus concerning the priests office of putting a difference between the holy the vnholy between the cleane and the vncleane from which words maister Beza is enforced to set the institution and iurisdiction of his eldership maister Caluins exposition is there in like maner altogether against
a sinne as no mā knoweth off but onlie he him selfe against whom it was committed Whereuppon it followeth of necessitie that when Christ sayth take with thee one or two c. for witnesses we must by those witnesses vnderstand witnesses of the admonition which he who taketh them with him must giue in theyr presence to the partie that had offended For witnesses of the fact they could not bee in that they saw it not So as both maister Caluin and Gallasius doe thinke that here Christ speaketh de testibus admonitionis of the witnesses of admonition And Gallasius amongst other reasons for him selfe alledgeth this Non dicit Christus voca testes qui rem viderint c. Christ sayth not call such witnesses as sawe the trespasse when it was committed but take one or two Vnus certe testis ad rem probandam non sufficeret but one witnes who may serue as after hee saith to prooue a mans contumacie or repentance is not sufficient to conuince a man of a fact if he deny that euer hee committed any such fact Maister Caluin being asked his iudgement hereof by the ministers of Neocomum as it seemeth writ vnto them after this sort Quod postea c. That which followeth vz. if hee heare thee not hoc nostro iudicio intelligendum est non de testibus delicti sed admonitionis This in our iudgement must bee vnderstoode not of the witnesses of the fact but of the admonition Against this interpretation heare now what Beza Alexander haue to saie If this interpretation saye they should bee good consider then what inconueniences would followe of it I will set downe two and so referre you to Beza for the rest It maye fall out oftentimes saie they in effect that the partie delinquēt confessing his fact to him that came first vnto him to admonish him of it wil afterwards when he shal bring one or two witnesses with him denie that euer hee eyther did or confessed anye such deed And what then Besides it maie well inough come to passe that hee vnto whom a man shall come in such a charitable sorte to admonish him maie burst foorth into a choller and saie that hee is slaundered and so calling the said man for his godly minde into the law as a slaunderer make them witnesses of his pretended slaunder that came to be witnesses of his admonition For these reasons therefore and for some other Beza and Alexander will not admit that Christ should speake heere of such priuate offences as none knew but one but of such us that there might bee some witnesses of them if the offenders should denie them So as now in both their iudgements Christ doth speake in this place de testibus facti of the witnesses of the fact Peraduenture you can bee heere content to heare some aunswere to these obiections They seeme to bee of great difficultie and to carrie some matter with them which may preiudice mayster Caluin and Gallasius But what should men talke of difficulties when the trueth appeareth Incommoda et inconuenientia non soluunt regulam Incommodities and inconueniences doe not sayth Gallasius dissolue a generall rule It maye bee that the partye maie denie his facte as it hath beene sayde If hee doe hee is to bee lefte to the great Iudge Yea but hee will take the Lawe against the Admonitioner as a slaunderer of him Hee maie doe so indeede sayth Gallasius againe and I haue seene experience of it And there is no other remedie but this the graue men that were brought to bee witnesses of the admonition must tell the Iudge the whole matter and for what purpose they were brought to the plaintiffe Whereby the Iudge maye easilye vnderstande the iniurie offered and then if he fauour the Church hee will send the partye to the Eldershippe or Ecclesiasticall Senate or else vz. in effect that the defendaunt in that action must beare it off with his heade and shoulders It is no meruayle then you see that our reforminge Generation should crie out so mightelie for the newe forme of discipline it is so substantially compact together and at such great vnitie in it selfe Vnto these caterbraules and pittifull distractions I might adde a great heape of other confusions all of them proceedinge from such intollerable presumption as is vsed in the behalfe of that Minion by the peruertinge and false interpretation of the sacred Scriptures But I haue been too tedious alreadie in this matter and therefore to grow towardes an ende of it Of all the places of Scripture which they pretende to make for such partes of their discipline as is disliked by the Church of Englande as either for their Iewish Sanedrim their parish Bishops their vnpriestlie Aldermen with their priestlye functions their Geneuian presbyteries or Elderships of all the places of scripture I saie which they bring for that purpose I professe vnto you as in the presence of God that I cannot find anie one but by one meanes or other they haue cast such a colour vpon it as was neuer knowen in the Church of Christ amongst all the auncient godly Fathers from the Apostles times till these our troublesome and presumptuous daies Well It is not inough for men to alledge scriptures except they bring the true meaning of the Scriptures For as Saint Augustine saith Heresies and erroneous opinions doe not otherwise spring and grow vp nisi dum Scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene quod in eis non bene intelligitur etiam temerè audaciter asseritur but when the good Scriptures are not well vnderstood and because that which is not well vnderstoode in them is notwithstanding rashlye and boldly affirmed to be the meaning of them There was neuer anie thing hitherto so fondly deuised but the authors of it did euer pretend they had Scripture for it For else saith Sainct Ierome the garrulity of such persons non haberet fidem would neuer haue wonne any credite All sectes and Schismes haue risen for the most part vppon discontentment And this a man may obserue in the writinges of the auncient Fathers that as many men doe marrie and so beget children before they know how to keepe them so commonly it hath fallen out in new strange opinions Through pride and vanitie they haue beene rashlie begotten before the authors of them did know how to maintaine them Marrie when once they had engaged their credits by broching of this and that then they euer laboured not to submitt them-selues and their opinions vnto the trueth Sed vt sibi scriptur as ipsi subijcerent but as Augustine saith that they might bringe the scriptures to bee in subiection to them Of the which kinde of men Saint Hilary also speakinge sayth that they interpret the Scriptures pro voluntatis suae sensu according to such a sense as may serue their turnes c. Which is as the same Hilary sheweth in another place non expectare