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judgement_n	according_a	lord_n	time_n	1,649	5	3.4597	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19150	Epphata to F.T., or, The defence of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Elie, Lord High-Almoner and Priuie Counsellour to the Kings Most Excellent Maiestie concerning his answer to Cardinall Bellarmines apologie, against the slaunderous cauills of a namelesse adioyner, entitling his booke in euery page of it, A discouerie of many fowle absurdities, falsities, lyes, &c. : wherein these things cheifely are discussed, (besides many other incident), 1. The popes false primacie, clayming by Peter, 2. Invocation of saints, with worship of creatures, and faith in them, 3. The supremacie of kings both in temporall and ecclesiasticall matters and causes, ouer all states and persons, &c. within their realmes and dominions / by Dr. Collins ...	Collins, Samuel, 1576-1651.; Bellarmino, Roberto Francesco Romolo, Saint, 1542-1621. Apologia.	1617 (1617)	STC 5561; ESTC S297	540,970	628

terram worshipt Elias falling flat vpon the ground which you persist to construe of relligious adoration we see no cause why it should be so no more then Ruthes to Booz or Mephibosheths to Dauid or the rest whome you sequester from this kind your selfe though the Scripture speake of them in the same phrase as your selfe also acknowledge numb 15. But what meruaile if ye hale in these into your muster when as Nabuchodonosor adored Daniel you say with a relligious adoration and Iacob worshipt the top of Iosephs rodde which you would make a rood of a puppet or what you please like the worshipping of the footestoole of which anone For as they that run a whoring once after the creature forsaking the one and onely true God Rom. 1. change him into the vilest and lewdest shapes that may be of calues of creeping things c. so it was meete that when you would bring downe once your relligious adorations from that diuine sublimitie to such pelting trash as in respect of God is whatsoeuer the world containes you should stay no where but euen bequeath it to roddes to foot-stooles and to what not Was it all one for Iacob in his feeble and accrazed state to worship God vpon the top of his staffe being vnable without that to sit vp in his bed an act without all doubt of most absolute deuotion for where would not hee worship God that worshipt him so is it all one I say for an old man to worship God raising himselfe vpon his staffe in his bed and to worship the staffe it selfe with relligious worship Are you not afraid least this staffe prooue a scorpion to chastize you while you argue so wantonly so wickedly and yet so weakely or that your hearers hardly hold their hands from you to be mockt so grossely Or if Ioseph be this rodde as other some construe it like that phrase in Esay Egredietur virga de radice Iesse will you perswade vs that Iacob worshipt his staffe because he worshipt God in the hopes of his sonne Ioseph shooting vp like a plant out of a pleasant ground as they that came of the stocke of Iesse before named But let vs heare the Fathers and how they interpret it S. Primasius two wayes vpon this place but in neither of them dauncing after your pipe One while hee sayes that Iacob worshipt his sonne Ioseph as a temporall Prince ouer all the land of Egypt But if you take it of a spirituall and relligious worship then worshipt hee Christ saies hee and his mysticall Kingdome ouer all creatures both in heauen and earth not any materiall rodde which is heathenish to Primasius His words are Iacob cognouit per illam virgam Ioseph designari regnum Christi Non ergo virgā adorauit pro Deo secundum ritum gentilium c. The same words hath Remigius as it were borrowed of Primasius But hee proceedes Vel quantum ad literam fortassis secundum consuetudinem illius temporis adorauit virgam Ioseph quem videbat Dominum esse totius regni terrae Aegypti quâ scilicet ratione Hester legitur adorâsse virgam Assueri That is Iacob vnderstood that the Kingdome of Christ was resembled and figured by that rod of Ioseph Hee did not therefore worship the rodde for God or with diuine worship which is the manner of heathens and gentiles c. Or happily to vnderstand this text literally it may be that according to the custome of those times hee proceeded to worship Iosephs rodde or scepter whome he saw to be Lord ouer all the land of the Kingdome of Aegypt In like sort as Ester is recorded to haue worshipped Assuerus his scepter This is Primasius his iudgement Anselme vpon the place saith Nos in nouâ translatione legimus Adorauit Israel Deum Iacob worshipt God not the rodde but God Which in our English translation the Rhemists so mislike that they call it an intollerable corruption And againe Si adorâsset fastigium virgae illius non esset dicenda sides To worship the toppe of a staffe had beene no faith Infidelity rather and Idolatry I suppose whereas the Apostle brings in this for an example of his faith But he adored saies Anselme sublime imperium Christi the lofty kingdome and gouernment of Christ to which he submitted himselfe with all his heart And whereas some read Adorauit ad caput lectuli which the Hebrew is not against hee sayes the holy man had his bedde stand so that he might compose himselfe to prayer in it vpon any occasion but to prayer to God onely and that was his worshippe here spoken of by the Apostle As for Austen our Rhemists confesse no lesse of him and in one word they are so bare vpon this place as they haue not one Father so much as to pretend for them by way of colour And this may suffice about the worshipping of the staffe which Erasmus makes so light of that he thinkes to deride it is to refute it They haue found out sayes hee a new fangle worship the worship of the staffe by their quaint Metaphysicks and their rare deuises Thus hee § 7. As for the worshipping of the footstoole adorate scabellum for adorate ad scabellum per ellipsin praepositionis alioqui bis inculcandae and somewhat like also in the Hebrew though not altogether the same the Bishop hath so plentifully cleered it in his answer that it is more then wondrous how you dare meddle with it but that you are more then impudent in outfacing vs with any thing And by this also may be seene to what simple animals your worke is dedicated that dare offer to feede them with such dirt for diet-bread § 8. Nabuchodonosors also adoring of Daniel is as friuolous which you will needes haue to be with a relligious adoration But you may remember that incense also and sacrifice was offered to Daniel by Nabuchodonosor and to be short he worshipt him in all points as a God Will you by this then prooue your worshipping of Saints Ioseph l. 10. e. 11. Antiq. Iud. Nabuchodonosor non aliter Danielem quàm Deum adoravit divinis iuvenem dignatus honoribus that is Nabuchodonosor worshipt Daniel no otherwise then God himselfe yeelding diuine honour to the young man S. Hierome resolues it at last thus Regem stupore confusum ignorâsse quid faceret That the King amazed at the wonderfull effects of Daniel knew not what he did and so discerned not inter servum Dominum betweene the seruant and the master in giuing honour Hieron Com. in 2. Dan. And Theod. Com. in eundem loc saith he giues the Priests charge to offer incense to Daniel not presuming himselfe vpon that seruice as too sacred for him Whereas the honour due to Saints is such as any bodie not onely the Priests may performe vnto them in the Papists opinion Yea I beleeue they had rather trust the poore ignorant people with this kind of duties then their more intelligent

printed copies very ancient then in fowre manuscripts beyond exception One of the KINGS MAIESTIES Librarie a copie very faire written and withall so auncient as before the Conquest giuen by a Monke called Os-Ketel to the Monasterie of Rochester Another of Merton Colledge in Oxford Two out of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Lastly in an other edition of Paris that retaines those words after the late Rome Copie had presumed to leaue them out by the partiall direction of Felice Peretto afterwards Sixtus Quintus pag. 44. c. Whereunto may be added because the Adioynder makes this his capitall imputation of vntruths to the Bishop that Iohannes Viguerius a Papist of chiefe note for learning and iudgement reads them iust as the Bishop quoteth them Institut ad Theolog. Christianam c. 16. § 6. v. 5. De Sacramento Ordinis 9. How the Friars vse the Fathers when they are not for their turne but especially S. Ambrose aboue all others out of Iunius his report of his owne experience of their Presses when he was at Lyons in France p. 45. 46. 10. Peter the prime but more primes then Peter p. 47. 11. The Vicars of Christ are all Ministers in their degree but specially the Bishops p. 49. 12. Peter feeds all and yet others feed him as Paul and Iames so as no superioritie follows from thence p. 51. 13. The friuelous distinction betweene sheepe and lambs hissed out by Maldonate preiudiciall to the Pope though it were receiued by Tolet and Turrian their expositions p. 50. 51. c. 14. The Leuites were subiect to the Temporall Prince and a part of Israel euen in that sense The Adioynders proofes to the contrarie are answered Arguments for the other side which he hath not answered p. 52. 53. c. Rabanus Maurus in locū praeter alios citatos in corpore Defens sic Quòd recensiti quidem Leuitae fuerint inuentusque numerus ad 22000. sed seorsim Non ob exemptionem ab obedientia sed eximietatem virtutis quam prae se ferre debent Denique 3. Reg. 11. 38. secundū 70 dantur Salomoni i. Regi saeculari Nihil ergò iuvabit ad exemptionē quòd aliàs Levitae dati sunt Aaroni vt pertendit F. T. 15. The Adioynders blasphemie confuted That Christ by his comming abridged the soueraigntie of temporall Princes That it remaines as ample still as in the old Law p. 59. c. largè 16. Kings are to feede the Church of God and Peter himselfe but to feede it Cyrus head and pastor of the Church with some likelihood that he was saued p. 63. c. 17. The Papists ascribe temporall primacie to the Pope for all the Adioynders dissembling The KINGS MAIESTIE is not so forward to challenge spirituall primacie as the Papists impute to him whatsoeuer he might p. 67. 18. English Bishops and among them the Bishop of Elie no dealer in Coactions p. 68. 19. The Swords are two and diuided in their bearers though linked in vse according to Gelasius his iudgement of that matter p. 69. 20. Princeps Caput common to others with Peter and therefore enforce not p. 70. 71. 21. The Papists not we are readie to depose Magistrates vpon conceit of their misbehauiour Their slaundering of Wickliff vpon no ground that they shew So in another matter Wickliff is censured by Petrus Lutzemburg to hold that which none els euer imputed to him though they had sifted him narrowly Witnes Alphonsus lib. 12. contrahaereses V. Purgatorium in initio Lex quaedam accusatoria Consuetudo maledicendi pricking them on without any further euidence to carpe at Wickliff NONE but CHRIST from heauen may depriue his STEVVARD by BELLARMINES owne confession p. 74. 75. 22. The Bishop said right that Peter was restored to his Apostleship p. 77. c. Adde de Magist in 4. Sent. dist 19. § Qualem autem c. ex August Saepè lapsis Sacerdotibus reddita est dignitatis potestas Et Petrus post lapsum restitutus fuit c. 23. S. Cyrill giues the preheminence ouer all to Kings p. 81. To which that might be added ex eodem Cyrill Comment in locum Micheae citat which he speakes of Kings 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Crowned and dignified with the MOST SVPREAME EXCELLENCIES 24. S. Chrysostome no fauourer of Peters singular Primacie but against it directly p. 82. 25. Peter the mouth of the Apostles And what though p. 83. 26. Peter gaines the checke by asking Christ the question which the Adioynder would draw to prooue his Monarchie by p. 84. 27. Leoes authorities of Peters primacie are discussed p. 86. 28. The Law Inter claras not glossed by sundrie Lawyers and for that and other reasons iustly to be suspected if not reiected p. 88. c. 29. The not erring of the Church of Rome for a certaine season was no securitie for her perseuerance in after-times The titles giuen to her by Iustinian are common to other Churches and some greater then they p. 91. 30. Iustinians facts of more force to prooue then Patarensis his words And the Adioynders instance against this is answered p. 93. 31. Vniust assaults proceeding from authoritie are not to bee resisted but from others they may Syluerius a traytour to Iustiniau p. 94 32. Iustinian slaundered by the Adioynder of vnlearnednesse without ground His saluation likewise questioned by him very vncharitably p. 95 33. Patarensis his words imply not Syluerius his right to vniuersall iurisdiction and much lesse to the temporall which the Pope challengeth p. 96 34. Euery Minister is a Minister ouer the Church of the whole world in what sense p. 97 35. Liberatus his storie which the Adioynder quoteth hath more for the preheminence of the Emperour aboue the Pope then the Pope aboue him p. 98 CHAP. 2. 36. AThanasius flees to Iulius for aide not for iudgement As any Bishop in distresse might to him that were able to rescue p. 103 37. It was more then Pope Leo could doe to quash the Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon concerning the equalling of Constantinople with Rome The Adioynders foure reasons to the contrarie are answered p. 105 38. The Popes censures derided by godly Bishops and himselfe censured as fast when there was occasion p. 107 39. Other obiections dissolued against the Canon of Chalcedon viz. 1. the Emperour Iustinus and Iohn Bishop of Constantinople their seeking for vnion with the See of Rome 2. Tu es Petrus super hanc petram applyed to Pope Symmachus by the Easterne Bishops 3. Vigilius his presidentship in the Councel of Constantinople with Eutychius his good leaue 4. The Popes deposing of Bishops c. p. 108. c. 40. Pope Leos humble and yet bootelesse intercession to the Emperour Martian to disanull the Canon of the Councel of Chalcedon The Adioynders childish aucupium at the word intercedere p. 110. c. 41. Fowre reasons brought by the Adioynder why Pope Leo had good cause to except against the said Canon though it be

deny they say they cannot but the first authors of Christian relligion sprang from the East not from Rome neuertheles indignati sunt se posteriores ide●ferre quòd magnitudine ecclesiae superarentur idque cū virtute pio viuendi instituto longè superiores essent they thought much that they should be set any whit behind the others because their Church was not so great or so ample as theirs specially when in vertue and godly life they farre excelled them Thus they I compare not now the opinions of Arians with Catholiques in that point of their dissention which the Scripture hath determined and right faith compounded but as for East and West you see what estimation one had of the other and how little our Grecians thought themselues short of Rome Therefore they are so confident a little after as to challenge Iulius for doing against the Councell and their owne definition Insimulàrunt Iulium ceu transgredientem ecclesiae leges And whereas Iulius a little before had threatned them they threaten him againe and Sozomene calls the letter that they sent to Iulius plenam minarum atque ironiae full not onely of threates but mocks and taunts vnlesse you will otherwise construe it So miserably were they afraid of the Popes authoritie in those daies diuided from equity Pollicentur pacē communionem Iulio si approbaret abdicationem factam sin resisteret decretis eorum c. They promise Iulius to be of his communion if he will doe as they would haue him if not to leaue that is to disclaime him you would say to excommunicate him if it made for you And indeede in the 10. Chap. of Sozomene soone after they doe so in good earnest § 21. The next is Damasus In whom I must bee short What tell you vs of titles and tearmes and styles what though they called him most blessed Lord raised to the height of Apostolique dignitie holy father of fathers Damasus Pope c. Thinke you that the boyes would forbeare laughter hearing this argument That the Bishops of Africa call him Damasum Papam Pope Damasus c. therefore Damasus Pope might receiue appeales out of Africa If that be not in their style the rest is vulgar and nothing to the matter Who was not Papa in those dayes which you engrossing bewray your selues Yea but nothing might goe for currant concerning important affaires as deposition of Bishops say you nisi ad noticiam vestrae sedis delatum fuerit vnlesse your Sea knew of it To which I answer noticia is one thing consensus another Men may seek for resolution and yet not be subiect to authoritie vnlesse themselues please 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the soueraigne stroke in euery businesse should be the Metropolitanes of the Prouince the Councell of Nice determined verie cleerely Can. 4. of more authoritie then your Damasus his epistles or to Damasus § 22. But is not that a braue confuting of the Mileuitan Canon alleadged by the Bishop against appeales beyond the sea that S. Hierome sought to Damasus for his iudgement about Hypostasis This also may prooue an appeale in time when appeales grow scant It hath been answered by our Diuines ouer and ouer it is nothing to our question therfore I insist not vpon it Neither yet that of Ambrose if it be Ambrose who liuing within Italy that is Damasus his prouince saies Damasus gouerned the house of God the house no doubt wherein hee liued and wrote at that day But how if he had called it as it followes in S. Paul columnam firmamentum veritatis which S. Paul does Ephesus wherein Timothy liued yet neither Ephesus that infallible one that you imagine Rome to be for truth of doctrine nor Timothy a monarch or vniuersall Bishop § 23. That Peter of Alexandria was restored to his Bishopricke vpon Damasus his letters you shewe not they were mandatorie we thinke rather commendatorie Damasus certified good things of Peter and the people receiued him illis confisus trusting they might be true or they did what they desired and longed to doe vpon so good a hint The Pope gaue not Patriarkships in those dayes yea had any so challenged the Alexandrines would haue torne him in peices they were so violent § 24. Vitalis an heretique and an Antiochian was examined and censured by Pope Damasus But you dissemble not that Paulinus their Bishop permitted it The wonder had beene if Damasus had intermedied against his consent One Bishop may referre his Priest to be examined by another whome he will Things were not so well setled with Paulinus at this time in Antioch as it should seeme through intestine discords which long continued So Damasus might prescribe a forme of abiuration to Vitalis the heretique though otherwise prescribe is but an imperious word of your owne deuising and to draw him a forme which he meant should be vsed by him vpon his returne to Antioch had beene enough Your author whome you quote in Ep. 2. ad Cledon saies onely thus Damaso postulante edidit or literis consignauit fidem at Damasus his instāce he pen'd a forme of his beleife not Damasus for him but he to Damasus Which Athanasius also did at the Emp. Iouians request not to purge suspicion but to instruct him in the truth Of prescribing to Paulinus I read nothing in that place In Damasus his Epistle I finde this qualification both that tuae voluntati tuo iudicto omnia derelinquimus we leaue all to your will and your iudgement and in the ende this Non quòd haec ipsa quae scribimus non potueris conuertentium susceptioni proponere sed quò noster consensus liberum in suscipiendo tibi tribuat exemplū Not that you could not of your owne selfe haue propounded these things to conuerts ere they were receiued but that our concurrence might yeeld you freedome of example to receiue them And if freedome how prescription § 25. It is a wonder how you dare mention the name of Flauianus who by the Emperors fauour kept his seat against so many Popes one after another striuing to vnhorse him and all in vaine The paines that Chrysostome and Theophilus tooke to make a peace betweene him and Damasus shewed their good care of the Churches vnity and worthily entitles them to the blessing of peacemakers But that which you call pardoning Flauianus offence and restoring him to the communion of the Church againe was no more then was vsuall in those dayes between Bishop and Bishop if they misliked one another to forbeare communicating mutually if satisfaction were giuen to returne to fellowship and communion againe which you perhaps to amplifie the Popes power would haue vs think to be excommunication and absolution Where you say that the people of Antioch were IN TIME REDVCED to concord and vnitie with Flavianus their Bishop through this act of Damasus it shewes it was rather the relenting of their mindes and appeasing their stomacks out of

little by this new purgation For first this is generall and encloseth all Non potest aliquis omnia in praesenti vitâ operari Then necessary not subiect to be diminished or released by the prayers of the liuing Vpon which foundation neuerthelesse your market-house is erected And lastly not torments but tentations remaine for vs and fresh combates if these say true Your pots may freeze then for all this Purgatorie But at least it followes from prayers for the dead which you bid vs marke here As if in the auncient Liturgies the Virgin Mary were not prayed for whom you so quit from Purgatorie that you excuse from death in other some the Martyrs who goe not thither by your doctrine but are glorified immediately yea all soules and all departed are prayed for by others Yet not onely S. Bernards soule flow immediately to heauen as your Authors informe vs. but euen Father Hozius the Iesuite and I know not who of that crew their soules were seene fleeting thither as fast by some of their owne consederacy forsooth that we may beleeue it the rather S. Cyrill in his Catechis quotes the words of the Greeke seruice thus Offerimus pro omnibus qui●… saculo tibi placuerunt Sanctis We offer for all Saints and righteous persons that haue beene pleasing to thee O Lord from the beginning of the world And more peremptorily afterward to shew that euen profit accrueth here of the soules departed but what profit you may thinke sith he makes it common to the soules of the most righteous iust themselues euen all of thē Magnam vtilitatem credentes accessuram eorum animabus pro quibus offertur which puzles your Pamelius who quotes that to prooue the cleane contrarie of it which it importeth Gregorie Nazianz Orat. in Caesarium sratrem though hee had laid downe his ground that Caesari●… was saued and his soule enriched with competent honours dignum fructificaret honorem yet he prayes thus to God in the sequele for him Nunc O Domine Caesarium suscipe Tuis eum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is Receiue him Lord we giue thee him whome thou hast alreadie taken Of which manner of prayer I shall speake a little after S. Ambrose is not slack to pray for Valentinian S. Austen for his mother Monica though they assure themselues of their exemption frō all manner of paine Et credo iamfeceris quod te rogo saith S. Austen sed tamen voluntaria or is mei approba Domine And I beleeue Lord thou hast alreadie done this but yet Lord accept the free-will offerings of my mouth But let Gregorie de Valentia cast it hardly Tom. 4. Com. Theolog. Disput 6. Quaest 6. Punct 1. De forma Eucharistiae thus hee sayes Facit saepe magnitudo affectûs in Sanctis vt illud tanquam in excasi quadam petant à Deo quodtamen iam factum est The Saints in transportation many times pray for things alreadie graunted The same saith S. Chrysostome of S. Paul Hom. 10. in 4. ad Coloss 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He begs for what he hath alreadie Holy Iob also concurring cap. 9. Cùm vocantem me exaudierit non tamen credo quòd audier it vocem meam When he heares me calling vpon him yet I scarce beleeue that he hath heard my voice and therefore importune him with fresh suite for the same thing Yea Maldonate the Iesuite giues as much out of the Author Imperfecti commenting vpon Matt. 6. 11. Vocari volunt panem nostrum illum etiam ipsum quem iam habemus quem nihilominùs à Deo petere iubemur Quod verum quidem pium est c. So as not onely in extasie and transportation as Valentia would but in the daily forme of prayer prescribed by our Sauiour to the whole Church the Saints are to pray for things alreadie had But returne we where we left § 35. The last is of Florentius apoore old man of Hippo who hauing lost his cloake S. Austen saies he praied at the monuments of certaine Martyrs but not to them The young men scoft him say you for praying to the Martyrs It seemes then it was no such vse to doe so For they were not Pagan young men but more likely Christian And though they mocked him eo ipso nomine for praying to the Martyrs yet it followes not that he did so for euen our Sauiour was mockt as praying to Elias when he praied to his Father onely So it might be that neither Florentius praied to any but to God and the young men mocking him as praying to the Martyrs declared the iudgement of those times and those parts which was that Martyrs were not to be prayed to You say they mockt him not for praying to the Martyrs but for requesting of them quinquagenos folles so many pieces of money towardes his cloake Which is not likely he would capitulate so precisely with Saints for the buying of a new cloake but if he did you may weigh his wisdom and thinke how fit a man to square the faith of Gods Church by his actions Cartosus the cooke might say Ecce quomodò Martyres te vestierunt behold how the Martyrs haue clothed thee though neither Florentius praied to them nor Cartosus allowed such praier to be lawfull but onely comforting him against the taunts of the young men who had impured that to him to pray to Martyrs S. Austens epiphonema Cui nisi huic fidei attestantur ista miracula to what faith doe these miracles beare witnes c. hurts not vs who denie not miracles though they that call for them vntimely driue our Sauiour to groanes againe Mark 8. 12. nor wish ill to Martyrs and least of all to Faith but say that faith in Saints and prayer to the dead are both of them repugnant to the right faith of our Lord Iesus Christ. To the eight Chapter The Bishops arguments against Praying to Saints are maintained which the Adioynder saith may be expected in all likelihood that he should satisfie and therefore addresseth himselfe thereunto in this chapter The Canon of the Church of England about the Crosse in Baptisme neither guiltie of imposture nor any otherwaies to blame Wrangling iuggling trifling and the rest of his braue Rhetorique wherewith he fronts the Bishop returned vpon himselfe rather in proofe then words § 1. YOV call it the Bishops abusing of Theoderet to quote as much of the text onely as was most pregnant to the matter in hand besides that you know his accustomed breuity And yet professing to lay downe Theodonets place you dare not your selfe lay it downe at large I will adde what you left out The question betweene vs arises of the 35. Canon of the Councell of Laodicea Of that Theodoret in his Comment vpon the 2. to the Coloss thus They which defended the law did prouoke them also to the worship of Angels saying that the law was giuen by them Now this fault remained in Phrygia

in them they will helpe vs and beeing potent they can and that they know our case and behold our estate or else they were not compleatly blessed if they should wish vs well and yet not know how we did With a great deale more of such fiddle-faddle-stuffe which S. Paul condemnes in one word in the place before named Coloss 2. Instatus sensu carnis sua puffed vp with his owne carnall reason or carnal sense and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strutting and pacing in things that he hath not seene Not seene indeed but yet picked out by F. T. his occulta philosophia● § 10. You knowe not saies he how the sea ●●s and flowes how the load-stone drawes iron how the eye sees whether extramittendo or intromittendo c. And surely though we doubt of them we are in no great danger Simple may we be but not sacrilegious Quae sine periculo ignorantur oppugnantur etiam quandoque cum laude Faith hath her assurance and sense hers That Saints should be praied to is accompanyed with neither Were it as euident as the former though we might sift it happily with an argument or two for discourse sake yet we would not persist in the denyall of it as now when neither Scripture abets it and sounder antiquitie makes against it He saies We know not how the Saints pray for vs Suppose we doe not the matter is not great Yet we must be sure they heare vs and perhaps know how before we pray to them For they may doe vs good though we be not aware of it haue reference to them we may not vnlesse we haue good ground for it Howbeit whereas he sayes wee cannot conceiue how the Saints pray for vs if the Saints haue reason and affection remaining with them as doubtlesse they haue what difficultie is it to conceiue howe they should pray for vs § 11. And dare you question of our Sauiour how hee sees our praiers Doe you not rather wonder how he should bee ignorant of any thing haue you forgot what flowes from the hypostaticall vnion Which Saints haue not Angels haue not You are wont to taxe vs with the Agnoites heresy who is the Agnoite now but he that doubts how Christ should know all things and that not in pilgramage but in blisse § 12. To your 15. and 16. numb out of S. Austens lib. 22. de Ciuit. Dei That God workes wonders at the Tombes of Saints and yet we know not how Therefore we may pray to Saints though we discerne not how they heare vs. Resp Nothing like For neither does the Scripture euer say that God shewes no miracles at the tombes of Martyrs that we should question this so nicely before wee beleeue it by the Virgins Quomodo Luc. 1. Rather it most often witnesses of Almighty God qui facit mirabilia magna solus indeed solus so as no bodie cooperating with him none suffered to see and to inquire how he does them Quis consiliarius fuit ei Rom. 11. 34. But forsomuch as it denies that the dead know any thing of our condition here and such a gulfe as I may so say is pight betweene vs them as all entercourse and commerce is debarred the places are too common to be here recited therefore first shewe vs how or worthily wee beleeue you not § 13. The Angels may reioyce vpon the rising of a sinner when they conduct him into heauen as they did Lazarus his soule though they be not priuie to his passages here in earth And yet in earth they may see by outward demonstrations such signes of repentance as they cannot alwaies trace our supplications by which for the most part are cordiall and within the vaile The heart is deceitfull and who shall search it who gage it saies Ieremie For which cause S. Iohn saies God is greater then our heart onely God We are strangers to it our selues and shall they be no strangers which are so much estranged from vs both in place and qualitie In Cassians Collations a godly Abbot vseth this similitude As certaine the eues when they would know what store of gold is hidden in a house that they beset they fling in some handfulls of smaller sands at the windowes that by the sound of that in the fall they may iudge whether any treasure be within or no and not loose their labour so the thoughts of the heart are subiect to knowledge by such or such signes vpon prouocation Which may hold well enough in matter of repentance to see whether the sinner will returne to his old courses or no but is no way to know what he begs in prayer To omit that our Sauiours words might be construed by supposition that so great is the ioy for repenting sinners as Angels would haue their part in it if they knew it and when they know it then they haue de facto Heauen and earth in another place are inuited to reioyce ouer Babylon your Babylon by a figure of hyperbole for the wrongs that you haue done them Lastly Revelatio vicissitudinis or intervalli is one thing as I told you before statae permanentiae another The first may suffice to verifie the saying Luk. 15. of the ioy of Angels ouer repenting sinners but that they should know our prayers whensoeuer we make them more is required § 14. The like I might say to your instance of Samuel who told Saul all that was in his heart namely concerning the matter then in hand Of Elizeus that saw Gehezi by transitory reuelation and discouered what the king of Syria did in his priuy chamber The presenting of our Sauiours glorious body to S. Steuens eyes is not comparable with an intuitiue speculation of the thoughts though this also was at a glimpse and not ordinary whereas the Saints must haue ordinary to heare vs at all times if they will be called vpon § 15. Athanasius is counterfeit yet he meanes but of things belonging to their beatitude Sine his autem satis beati esse possumus Both we and they too may be happy enough without this Then post mortem in die Iudicij After death and in the day of iudgement Time enough therefore if they know all things in the last iudgement What is that to prayer to them which must be in the meane while if it be at all § 16. As for S. Basil he meanes intra sphaeram onely within their quarter For though they are quicker sighted then wee yet they haue a limitation both of act and vertue The Custodia hominum which S. Basil ascribes to them may be with knowledge of our outward wayes without knowledge of the inward to which our prayers belong And yet againe he may be custos or protector of vs that watches ouer our safetie with prayers and with good wishes though he know not so much as our outward estate As Iob when he praied for his children vnknowing to them as S. Paul

hath done nothing in his Apologie in doing no more then so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he had as good made no Apologie at all By the way it is pretty and worth the noting how you report the Bishops words Rex expectat in quadringentis annis c. though de quadringentis would haue fitted you better which you quote in the margent as the Bishops owne words and like enough to be so not in quadringentis But this is your Latine when you list to speake like your selfe and reforme Bishops for theirs If it be true as you say that the Fathers of the three first hundred yeares after Christ are so few and so scantie remaining to our daies you reckon but 7. or 8. though I suppose there are diuers more yet what ill luck haue you with them that can finde no footing of all your new-fangled superstition in any of their workes Not in Tertullian not in Origen not in Irena Ignace Lactance Melito Cyprian Iustine Clemens Arnobius Methodius Minutius the Cyrills Dionysius Athenagoras Theophilus c. not in Eusebius himselfe who liued there anewst and enclined to the Platonicks as did some others of the forenamed ranke Which Platonicks are thought to be somewhat fauourable to your fancie of worshipping Saints aboue the rest of the Philosophers And if the Fathers as you say write so few in an age does not this shew that the square of our faith is the Scripture not the Fathers for how if the Fathers had wrote nothing at all As of diuerse points you confesse your selfe they did not Num. 63. and Num. 66. And in the beginning of this Chapter you would make vs beleeue that the Apostles themselues had no commaundement for writing Might not the Fathers pennes much more haue stood still Yet you adde that the after-ages abounded with writers when persecution ceased and many worthy Volumes were spread abroad into the world It may well bee but as heresie is confounded many times by writing so some errours will creepe in withall and hardly can it be eschewed Abundabit scientia but abundabit iniquitas too Daniel the one our Sauiour Christ the other each of the same times of the world of the Church The Elephant oppresseth Eleazar in the fall So falshood gets some ground of truth euen in seeming to be foyled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was our Sauiours depositum which he left to the Church witnesse he in the Nicene Councell Apud Socr. lib. 1. cap. 8. not ventilation not disputation Wherein I may boldly say that truth of relligion comes in as much hazard to bee lost as our Sauiour was in the crowde and concourse at Ierusalem As in the ouerflowes of Nilus the corne feilds are the better and the fatter for it but serpents and Crocodyles come in amaine so whiles many pennes walke the originall puritie is lesse preserued It will be alwayes true which Tully saith Quò propiùs aberant à diuina progenie c. so from the Primitiue times eò acutiùs cautiùsque vena videbant recta tenebant which posteritie fayled in § 45. When you aske if we would not receiue the signe of the Crosse as proceeding from antiquitie vnles all the Fathers had stood for it why should we hold you long in suspence It is the vniforme consent of the godly Fathers that endeares the vse of that memorial to vs and had onely certaine singulars like starres in a darke night deliuered their opinion of it it should neuer haue found such entertainment at our hands for the antiquities sake And therefore you must muster a squadron of Fathers though I see it be troublesome vnto you for prayer to Saints not come in with your snatches and your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here and there if you will carrie it by the Fathers Where it may please you to remember that in the Conference at Hampton Court which you quoted so lately the Bishop that you now write against brought Tertullian for the Crosse and the vse therof in baptisme in immortali lauacro you haue neither author for Inuocation of Saints so auncient nor piece of an author Yet you compare this with the signe of the crosse How vnfitly § 46. The Bishops you say are giuen to teach the Church if they may erre therein the Church may be deceiued and so all is marred As if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Austen doth not tell you of erring Bishops of deceiuing Bishops which the people fondly relyed vpon he in vaine recalling them and denouncing that the Bishops authority is no sanctuary to the erroneous See lib. de pastor cap. 10. Saepe hoc dicunt heretici securi sequimur Episcopos The heretikes haue this often in their mouthes 〈◊〉 are safe so long as we follow our Bishops It is a signe of heresie with S. Austen to follow the Bishops and their iudgement securely viz. without looking any further And in the 7. Chapter of the said booke hee applyes that to the Bishops of his time out of Ezek. 34. Quod errabat non reuocastis the wandring sheepe ye haue not called backe What remedy are the Bishops now against error And Si Episcopus constitutus in ecclesia catholica non bonam rationem reddit de oue quam non quaesierit errantem de grege Dei qualem rationem redditurus est haereticus viz. Episcopus qui non solùm non reuocauit ab errore sed etiam impulit in errorem Doe you see that Bishops doe not onely not bring from errour but lead into error yea thrust impell cap. 10. of the aforesaid And yet you thinke the onely antidote of Church errors lyes in the Bishops How much better S. Peter Habemus firmiorem sermonem propheticum We haue a surer testimony namely the holy Scripture not onely then the authority of any Bishops can be to preserue from error but then a voyce from heauen for of that speaks S. Peter which Satan may counterfeit and so likewise fayne himselfe a Bishop as well as change himselfe into an Angel of light Therefore S. Hilary saies that Christ would not let his Disciples beare witnes of him and yet no meane persons because he was to be approoued by other manner of witnesses namely the Law and the Prophets that is the Scriptures And S. Chrysostome Hom. 9. in cap. 3. ad Coloss Exhorting the lay-men to prouide them bookes the medicines of their soules as he calls them bids them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to tarrie for another Master not the Prelate himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for he hides many things many times from them for enuie or for vain-glory Whereas the Scripture layes all open sincerely Is this a small prerogatiue of Scriptures aboue the Doctors S. Austen also cap. 11. of the booke aforequoted after he had lodg'd his sheepe like a good pastor in the mountaines of Israel that is as he interprets it in the authority of the diuine Scriptures he thus bespeakes them Ibi pascite vt securè

which these Authors confiue to the old Testament Apolog contra Gentes When the late king of France Henrie 4. did M. Beza such like honour dismounting from his horse and running to embrace him maruaile but this was relligious adoration in our Adioynders fancie Adioynd cap 9. Numb 14. Greg. Hom. 29. in Huang Corporali● miracula ost●●dunt aliqu●●de sanctitatem no● 〈◊〉 Haymo hath the same word●s with Primasius Respons ad Apolog pag. 201. Dan. 2. Com. in 11. ad Hebr. Homil. 26. in Ethico The Adioynder sinds a knot in a bulrush a contradiction in the Bishop where none is * Chrysost in Epist ad Coloss p 114. lin 20. edit D. H. Sauile Vide pag. 249. h●ius c. 6. adde eundem August de vnitat Eccl. pluribu● locis Hieron aduersus Vigilant Aeneid 4. Chap. 10. Adioynd sub finé 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Serm. de Temp. Psalm Chrysost c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Theod. lib. 3. histor cap. 10. Contr. Petili 〈◊〉 c. Contr. Parmen lib. 〈◊〉 In Lucam Noui multos sepulchrorum adoratores c. Et in Epist Hieron quoque Vid. Epist eius Imper●tores Honori●s Theodosi●● Augg. legē tulerunt Nemo martyres distrahat this was to put the Martyrs to a second death I am ●os secunda 〈◊〉 ma●et to speake with Bo●thi●● nemo mercetur By the way note the power of Kings commanding about matters of relligion But more fully read Gregor T●● l. 9. c. 6. and that hideous historie of a Rellique-monging impostor with his sachel full of rats-bones and roots and the teeth of moales and the fat of beares c. Yet hee concludes Multi sunt qui 〈◊〉 s●…ctiones exercent populum rusticum in errorem mittere non desinunt De quibus opinor Dominus in Euangelio Surrecturos in novissimis qui etiam electos in errorem inducant c. Is it not pitie that we Englishmen will not traffike with the Iesuits for such ghostly commodities De Civit. Dei l. 10 c. 1. quaest in Genes Quaest in Gen. 23. The two questions still crosse or rather kisse one another of our subiection to Princes and deuotion to God * I meane odious euen to the Saints thēselues Witnesse Chrysost Homil. 9. in 3. ad Coloss See pag. 293 huius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Tim. 5. 〈◊〉 * Falsly printed in Valentia 10. 3. Sic de moritus Eccl. c. 34. c. Heb. 12. 1. Aug. de Morib Eccl. Cath. c. 30. Meritò ecclesia Catholiea nullam nobis creaturam adorandam inducit cui servire iubeamur Remouet à creaturâ adorationem etiam eam quae cum simplici seruitute coniunctaest Quorsum ergò de Dulia S. Austen would haue both duliae and latria giuen to God not to Saints 1 〈◊〉 Lao Serm 8. de Nat. Dom. Ne● sunt gradus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●c 2 De obit Theodos Contra Faust Manich. Sed contrà Crese Grammat Grammat 2. c. 15. Honoramus Sacramenta in gestante The Adioynd of Helen numb 29. Vbi priùs Apolog 2. advers Ruff. The Card inferreth with the blessed Apostle that seeing the sinne of Adam was of force to make vs truly sinners the merits and grace of Christ are of farre greater force to purge and cleanse vs from our sinnes and to make vs truly iust otherwise our helpe is not equiualent to our harme our remedy to our disease our rising to our fall nor our gaine to our losse nor consequently Christ to Adam c. The Adioynders clo quence numb 40. To the 2. Pronihilo salvos facies eos which construction of the Fathers in this sense though deflected Andradius himselfe mislikes not but erounds a rule vpon it for the like expositions Defens Concil Trid. calling it expositio per accommodationem belike though praeter scopum * S Hierom Co●… in Epist ad Philem at those words Mihi imputa acknowledges the like betweene Christ and vs for matter of Imputation is was betweene Paul and Philemon saying immediatly Imitator domini sui Christū in se loquentem habens ea debet sacere quae Christus c. ●rat in S. Baptis●… 1. 15. Aug. l. 2. Ré●r lib. de perfect iusticiae Hieron etiam in Hier. 31. Bernard in fest omn. Sanct. homil 3. Thom. part 3. q. 8. art 3. ad 1. To the I. Ista decē menses non peperere bona Prop. Card. in Apol. c. 7. p. 84. l. 19. as the Adioynder quoteth him in this 9 cap. numb 33. pag. 387. Vbi priùs Iosh 17. Cor ipsum eum cupiditatibus evellendum Sen. Can 69. of approching the Altar This is like the woman-philosophers elench apud Laert. l. 8. in Hipparch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Non sequitur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * De vit Constant l. 1. c. 37. see ibid. l. 3. c. 13. item c. 22. 23. c. Of Felix his apparition after death ex Aug. de cutâ pro mortu●… c. 1● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sunt Apostolo Heb. 13. * I meane not a culpable obliuion in the Saints as was in the Butler but as they cōplaine in Esay Israel nesciuit nos or Terra obliuionis in Iob and All his thoughts perish In sepulchre quis meminit tu●… Pl. 6. a Iosephs 2. Cor. 4. 4. Christ is the image of the inuisible God As who would say No image of God because inuisible but onely Christ In him we see God This fault is called by the Adioynder The Bishops abuse of Authors partly in wresting their sense partly in fraudulent citation of them And I will beginne saith he with his abuse of the Cardinall Adioynd Num. 54. Ostentation of merits so farre from the Cardinals humilitie and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And this not secundum exigentiam operis but either proportionem studierum or condecentiam b●… d●… They are the words of your owne shop Cap. 3. ●…s Faith in essentiali and as it is habitus For augmentum and intensio belong ad grad●… gloriae or ad cumulum praem●… as other v●…tues doe in their totall * Maria autem assidebat Christo while Martha attends other necessarie prouisions A semblant perhaps of Faith and her sister Charitie De Humilitate Com. in Epi●… ad Colos p. 114. Edit Etonensis Nobilissi●… D. Sauilij Stella Suarez with Bellarm and diuerse others plead for an honourable saluation which they thinke is by our works As if we were to God as Tully to Caesar Minus me debere tibi putarem si vt sceleratum me à te conseruatum existimarem Pro Marcell Which is nothing so But cum adhuc inim●ci essemus Rom 5. Mercy reioyceth against iudgement Iac. 2. 13. specially in that day and in altero saeculo saith S. Austen For he had said a little before as of the time to come 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Born in Cant. serm 71. Ego fidenter mihi vsurpo ex visceribus domini mei c. Anselme exhort al fratrem moriturum Obijcio mortent

male pert or erroneous Reuel 18. 4. Ferer Lusti antè citat Apud Gelas Cyzic in Act. Concil Nicen. a The Adioynd confuted by his owne allegation out of the Acts of Parlament See pag. 100. huius b Register of the Templats and Order of S. Iohn of Hierusalem quoted by M. IV Cambden in his Britannia Cornavijs c He that hath licence for doing incurres no fault at all but the breach euē of humane laws vndispensed is a sinne in conscience by the Papists doctrin Adioynd Num. 54. 55. 2. Sam. 15. 17. Rom. 13. Tit. 3. 1. Pet. 2. * Adioynd vbi priùs d Sauls guard refuse to doe a wicked act at their masters commaundement yet the Guard was not exempt from Sauls authoritie neither will the Adioynder haue it so This disobedience therefore prooues not but Saul was King as well ouer the Priests as others e Exod. 1. f Dauid represents the Priesthood not onely the Kingdome g One Doeg many Doegs h Doeg a figure of Iudas a The sword rewardes no lesse then punishes b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In burro panno purpureus animu● as Calvin him selfe most excellently notes whome they slaunder notwithstanding as vnkind to Kings Instit l. 3 c. 19. Sect 9. c Dio alis d The happines of Kingdomes is in obedience to Kings without contradiction Gerson c. Adioynd Num. 62. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Quoniam percepimus Ecclesiae relligionis nostrae tranquillitatens c. Iuram Scot. Edit an 1581. quoted by the Adioynder Though this be somewhat auncient to prooue the iudgement of these times by especially for one that takes notice of the Bishops iust exception Dies diem docuit c. See Adioynd Num. 68. b Vide Chrysost in fine huius Quanquam loquitur it à Synodus sexta Constantinop in Epist Concilij ad Iustinian Imper. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Seiromaste c No more power then Defensiue yet Sanders saies the Sword is Avenger rather But these two numina Praemium Poena conteine the Church and consummate the Suprematie c Though S. Austen make heresies vicia carnis as the Apostle also doth Gal. 5. By how much more they shall belong to the Kings correction * Aug. Triumph p. 9. citat Chrys in Matth. in eandem sent d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Paulo ante ex Concil 6. e De Merit remiss pecc initio lib. * Papa potest condere novū Symbolum novos articulos c. Triumph Ancon p. 310. f Nec auro Pyrrhe tuo nec elephantis Fabricius apud Plut. Adioynd Num. 63. g The Adioynder addes further here out of Beza as it seemes that Kings cannot be exempted from the diuine domination of the Presbyterie c. Forsooth nor from Confession vnder a shauen Priest with the Papists But who knows not that we haue banished the Presbyterie here in England or rather neuer receiued it not onely in extention as it reflects vpon Kings but not so much as in single essence And yet in France which was Bezaes owne countrey Rex causam dixit aliquando in iudicio si vera Bodinus Was hee not therfore supreame So here perhaps h Of the licking the dust of the Churches feet see S. Hierome before pag. 519. It imports small subiection superioritie rather And yet here the Church doth not signifie the Clergie yea as some thinke it is no where so taken at all in Scripture Lastly if it were yee the word Church is not once named by the Prophet Esay but he directs his speech to them that are of the Church the beleeuers in generall Gen. 41. 43. Adioynd vbi priùs Bonavent in 4. Sentent Dist 18. quaest 3. Resp ad vltimum Sed praecipuè August de parcendo multitudini ne eradicetur triticum Totis tract contrà Donatist T. 7. Denique Epist Leodiens Apologet. ann 1106. apud Schard Pro M. Celio Paral. p. 383. and 384. * Which Flor. Rem saies he may call the Talmud or Alcoran of heretiques Franciscus Horantius saies he wrote it by the instinct not of man but some foule spirit c. Both shewing in what account they haue the worke though they abliorre from his opinion * Flor. Rem de Origine haeres l. 7. c. 10. Sect. 1. Calvinus in conclavi quodam Engolismae apud Tilium plus quatuor millibus librotum tum manuscriptorum tum typis excusorū instructo ita se continuit triennio vt vel intimi amicorum aegrè ad ipsum admitterentur c. What maruell when Tullie saies de Arusp Resp led by the light of nature Nihil praclarius quàm eosdem relligionibus decrum immortalium summe Repub. praeesse voluisse maiores nostros Sub init Orat. Prefat lib. de clave David Acberat cum Constantinum delegantem Melciadi cum alijs Episcopis causam Caecilij Donati caput Ecclesiae vocat donat cum titulum homini non Christiano here Nondum enim baptizatus cum suit Constantinus vt patet ex Euseb alijsque Christianus verò esse non potest qui Christū quando potest per baptismum non induit Eia Pergite in maledicta Quid mirum iam si Rex Iacabus non Christianus Bellarmino quamvis baptizatus In the rest of the words that the Adioynder quotes out of Bishop Barlowe Sermon it seemes he saies that the Puritanes allow the King to be onely an honourable member of the Church And yet the Adioynder would perswade vs but a little before that the Papists goe as farre as the Puritanes about the Supremicie c. Whereas his owne argument is here against certaine Kings No members Therefore no heads But the Puritans acknowledge their King a member in the very words that he citeth out of B. Barlow and an honourable member that is happily Supreame He contradicts himselfe therefore As for their denying him to be Gouernour though it appeare not in their words yet either their meaning is he is not to gouerne after his owne lust and fancie against the booke of God put into his hands or Bishop Barlow describes the Puritans by their old Problemes which they disclaime daily as the Bishop of Ely exceeding well notes Though not so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by reuerence and humilitie but at another time Episcopus Episcoporum And Ego Episcopus sum etiam extrà Ecclesia●● i. vbique * And this is euen the worst that can be boulted out of those wordes of the B. so spightfully insisted vpon by the Adioynd Numb 67. that the Kings gouernment of the Church is externall so farre forth as it requires and admitteth and authoritie For so farre he is from extenuating the Kings Supremacie therby that his meaning is We are to looke for as much helpe and aid frō him and consequently to acknowledge as much authoritie in him as is humans that is incident to the power or place of any man whatsoeuer and therefore Supreame without question in his Kingdome Though he denies not but

of the Law the Law being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lex factorum the lawe of deedes as it is often called Can any flie ouer this not a mud wall but a wall of diamond with his wings of Counsels and voluntary obseruations though neuer so nimble and swift otherwise Gregorie Nazianzen is of the same minde to omit other Fathers Orat. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Let no man beare himselfe more legall then the Law more lofty then the commaundement more straight then the leuell or rule it selfe Therefore let there be no Counsels as additaments to the Lawe No though vowes and Monkerie in suo totali were graunted in all the whole substance of it in pouerty chastitie and obedience For as here we heare all is comprehended vnder due whatsoeuer it be all is no more then our debt to the law Monkerie it selfe with the appertenances But againe many obserue chastitie pouerty and obedience without the Vow which perhaps makes Chrysostome finde Monasticall accuratenesse and strictnesse so often euen in populous Cities villages and townes This is not saies he one time a doctrine only for them that lodge abroad in the fields or in the toppes of hils and steep mountaines c. as the people supposed fondly crying out as the Adioynder doth here that such perfection as he exhorted them to in his Sermon was for Monks onely In another place Abraham had wife and children saies he yet perfecter then any Monke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more accurate of his wayes more exact in his courses then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they which at this day haue taken vp their lodging in the tops of the hils at this day saies he and yet we heard before how resplendent the Monks were in his time like Angels incarnate ex hom 8. in Matth. Of another manner of stampe I wisse then the Abby-coynes in Poperie I meane their Friers longè diuersi commatis of whom we read notwithstading that they had vera monetaria true mints to coyne money in Had Chrysostomes so or could this haue beene heard of without horror then Lastly that Monks may be without these three viz. pouertie chastitie and obedience I will not say as I might for that yours haue been so Famous for faction first so as Contention if she were lost must be found in the Monastery Ariosto'es deuice where was obedience all this while For pouertie so as you heard euen now insomuch as they had mints and are they for poore folkes As for chastity I will spare my pen and not triumph in your shame as I might at large nor vnkindly gall the Readers modestie suffice it that true Monkerie vnreprooueable Monkerie may bee without these not onely your counterfeit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the ensuing shew § 34. Athanasius ad Dracontium of his times Multi Monachi sunt parentes liberorum And Quisque vbi volet decertet That is Many Monks are fathers of children Let euery man trie masteries as his owne mind serues him Making it first free to professe Monkerie or no and in that profession allowing the libertie euen of getting children S. August de Haeres cap. 40. Catholica Ecclesia plurimos Monachos clericosque habet vtentes vxoribus that is more then eoniugatos that by the way I may note somewhat for Ministers marriages propria possidentes In English thus The Catholike Church hath many Monks and Clerks in it meaning Ministers that both vse their wiues and possesse goods in proper Of Chrysostome I told you before Hom. 8. in ad Hebr. that if marriage and Monkerie may not stand together all is spoild Therefore your Church hath spoild all or there is nothing left vn-spoild in your Church that hath diuided these As for the Canon that forbids Monks to marrie Calched Concil can 16. it is a great deale younger and we search truth by the originall times Besides how gently doth that Canon censure them And so likewise the Virgins that marrie after profession or dedicatiō 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is kept for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The libertie of courtesie or relaxation is reserued for the Bishop of the place So as still the Monke may keepe his wife and the Virgin her husband As for Pouertie Alvarus Pelagius de planctu Eccl. lib. 1. cap. 46. Abdication of proprietie is not essentiall to Monkerie For in Egypt and Palaestine the Monks there vsually both bought and sold Yea Paulus ille summus Monachus proprium habuit testamentum fecit Paul the Arch-Monke had somewhat proper and made a will This speakes Alvarus of the Monks of Egypt which were those whome Chrysostome so praised euen now and from whome Bellarmine would commend his owne And for Obedience which is the third Caietane makes such a diuorce betweene perfection and that in 2. 2. Quaest 86. art 5. that he preferres the Bishop there afore the Monke though the Monke liues in farre more obedience then the Bishop as we all know Finally cannot the Pope dispence with his owne selfe for continence pouertie and obedience Hostiensis will tell you so no man disagreeing from him Nay how rare a thing is it for the Pope to obey Yet you knowe the Pope cannot cast away the height of his Pontificall perfection by any meanes Yea he dispences with others too as well as with himselfe and you approoue the practise Therfore these are not linked in so neere a band as you would make folkes beleeue but are separable from one another the vowe from Monkerie aske but Salomon of this Ecclesiast 5. or Dauid Psal 119. and Monkery from the vowe and Perfection from them all while your Euangelicall Counsels appeare no where § 35. Which things beeing so why should you traduce our men so bitterly in your numb 26. for abandoning the Monasteries that coope of infamies and taking to them wiues May the Pope doe this out of the libertie of his fanci● though materia voti be the same it was at first and shall not these be borne with whome the dangerousnes of the times and the reformation of their iudgements and the exigence of the cause acquireth from your slaunder Reade Theodoret l. 4. c. 26. Ecclesiast histor of Aphraates the Monke abandoning his cell and going abroad into the world to intend preaching Whose answer to the Emperour challenging him for it may be ours to your selfe in defence of those men whom you carpe so virulently But you alleadge Dionysius vnto vs de Ecclesiast Hierarch c. 10. and you say he liued in the Apostles times and boldly you call him S. Pauls disciple Thus you thinke you may perswade your schollers within the grate doubly captiued that haue neither mind to study nor opportunity to search nor yet iudgement to discerne that the doubtfull Dionysius is a man of such authoritie Who suppose he were most absolute and most authenticall what sayes he euen as you relate him That the Monks of

his time made a solemne promise and couenant before the altar to renounce the world and to embrace the monastique life For these are your words And suppose all this Doth this prooue that Monks may not marry wiues or possesse goods or decline your doating-moaping obedience For we renounce the world in Baptisme all of vs and yet all doe not bind themselues in these three vowes not onely ours but not yours Haue you not many that are baptized among you and yet no Votaries It rema●●es then you prooue it by those other words that the Monks of that time made a solemne promise to embrace as you say a Monasticall life Ergo Monkery includes the three vowes of pouertie chastitie and obedience But is this a sound sequele Or is it any thing but the Elench of Petitio principij For shame E. T. bind your broom-stickes together better or be aduised that you are not for this trade of syllogizing When I look in Dionysius I finde there onely a promise to forsake vitam diuiduam or vitam distinctam vnà cum visionibus which some would rather construe of a vowing for marriage against the single contēplatiue life specially they that were troubled with no more learning or Latin thē your self But whatsoeuer it be there is no vow in Dionys no not of that which we vow in Baptisme nor againe of Monkerie in him that turns Monk And yet how smal a thing were that if it could be euicted or what would that make for the three vowes which you say Monkery necessarily importeth we deny Doth this shew at all wherein Monkery consists if the initiate vowe at the time of his admission to obserue and embrace a Monasticall life For that he will turne Monke that he vowes perhaps and yet but perhaps but after what fashion he is to obserue his Monkerie vndertaken that hee mentions not that is as questionable yet as if nothing had been said Are you not ashamed then to bewray your dulnesse so grossely For these are not things of any deep mysterie but the blockishnesse of your braine lets you from conceiuing them I say finally Dionysius mentions no vow at all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another and your selfe dare not expound it by any other name then promise or couenant which comes short of Vowe when you haue don all you can Vowes are to God promise and couenant may be to man And so is that to be vnderstood of prima fides 1. Tim. 5. which here you clap on too onely to make vp measure What if I should say it were like primus amor Reuel 2. 4. or prima opera ibid. 5 The first faith like the first works or the first faith like the first loue Is it not meet expounding one of these by the other that are so neere in nature and to be neere in subiect But I stand not vpon that I admit the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the prima fides to be an obligation or profession before the companie to attend vpon such an office without vowing to God But our questiō is of vowing chastities And there the widow must be threescore yeares old that was to giue her fidem or to make professiō also to haue been married first to some husband or other You stand for the vowes of young striplings and young damosels neither formerly married and God wot farre off from threescore yeares of age And will you censure these with the same damnation But so much may suffice to haue answered of this matter § 36. As for the sentences of Luther that you quote out of him a nose-gay as you thinke of somewhat vnsauoury flowers they haue been explained ouer and ouer by our Diuines they import no such beastlinesse as you would wrest them to Who knowes not Luthers manner of deliuering his conceits As Socrates is said to haue had his pi●gues similitudines And S. Paul beeing to make opposition against the Law which the Iewes so magnified turnes euery thing into a Law Lex peccati Lex mortis c. sparing no words giuing the raines to his libertie So Luther Whereupon Harding charges him with denying magistracie among Christians because he saies in one place Inter Christianos magistratus nullus est or some such thing Which is no more then Chrysostome hath Rex subditus apud Christianos nomina mera sunt Orat. 2. in Babylam King and subiect are but meere names among Christians namely in matters between God and the conscience For I pray what difference is there when once it comes thither Does not the King as well as the subiect begge pardon of God And I haue obserued euen the Fathers to couple marriage with other naturall necessities which here you carpe Luther for I hope the Physitians will not greatly be against this whom your Medina appeales to in the triall of this question lib. 4. de Continentia sacrorum hominum controu 4. and we are not afraid to follow him But these flim-flammes would soone vanish of their owne accord if you would but leaue cauilling to disgrace the person and indifferently looke into the interpretation of our meanings I haue reade another of you that exclaimes against Luther for those words wherein he confesses of himselfe in the bitternesse of his soule that he takes more delight in eating drinking and sleeping then in the passion and resurrection of our Sauiour Christ Behold an Epicure saith he by his owne confession a belly-god c. And I remember a good Gentleman that was stumbled with these words cited as it seemes in one of your Pampheleters and thought the collection to bee verie sound No God knowes but as Anna said to Eli Ego foemina tristis corde so he I am a man sad at the heart deploring his sinfulnesse and agast at his owne wretchednesse which the Papists are none troubled with specially the Iesuites that view their face in the glasse of flatteries As we read in another place also of the same Luther where speaking of the good theife and his noble confession of Christ vpon the crosse he sticks not to say Certe ego non facerem Surely this is more then I should haue done if I had beene in his place Loe new matter for you to cauill at in Luther § 37. Now to drawe to a conclusion As for Bucer he is so farre from denying that we may pray to God for chastitie yea maidenly chastitie though you quote his Commentarie vpon Matth. 1. and Matth. 19. as containing such conceits but most iniuriously as you shall now heare Vpon the 1. of Matth. his words if any to that purpose there at all are but these Discendum nobis est ne priuati quicquam nobis in vita deligamus Praecipuè autem ne calibatum arripiamus temerè hoc est ad istud viuendi genus non certo Dei iussu vocati c. That is We must learne to choose no priuate vocation to our selues