Art 10. â—sw Consider first 1 The Gifts Graces and abilitie of discerning that were in the Apostles above any Minister now living who as they were able to preach with lesse time of studie so to dispatch and turne over weighty businesse with more speede and dexterity then we are 2 The extraordinary wonderfull and visible stroke of God upon the spirits and hearts of men that heard Peter at that time the meeting the language their understanding of it Gods assistance of Peter and blessing on the word all extraordinary Such a day such a Sermon such effects as never were before nor like to be to the end of the world so the power of God was remarkable in their conversion so also in their expression and demonstration of it So that there needed little triall when God spake himselfe from Heaven Answer to CHAP. VI. HE reports to recite such things onely as most neede Answer and let the rest passe Art 1. 2. That we hold that Christ hath invested with all power any that are in Church-fellowship that though they be all illiterate yet they may make examine all their Officers unmake depose them when they see cause so to doe and preach expound and apply the word with all Authority yea and doe it without any refâ—rence at all to their Officers as Officers when they have them â—nsw If I did delight in retorting I could say of these words as hee of Holland Ministers Apologie They are a meere Gull for almost so many words so many mistakes The Narratour should have done well first to have proved all the Churches and Ministers in New-England men out of their wits and voide of common sense and then hee might more easily have made the world beleeve they hold and practise such a congeries of absurdities and impossibilities For else many of them there being well known to bee learned godly and sober men no wise men will beleeve him that they can hold that 1. Illiterate men can examine Pastors fitnesse 2. Depose them at pleasure 3. Preach expound and apply the word with all authority 4. And that without any reference to their Officers at all 5. And which is mâ—st strange that Christ himselfe hath invested these illiterate ones with all power to doe all these things For 1. It is a received practise amongst us that when any combine into a Church there is one at least of them indued with able parts of humane and divine learning that either hath been a Minister in our native countrey or is fit to be one amongst them who usually and frequently preacheth to them after they are united So that al of them are not men illiterate ☜ and W. R. himselfe knowes this to be true for the Answer to the 32. quest 42. which is very page hee here quotes directly saith this in so many words 2. That those illiterate men do examine their Ministers abilities and that we hold they ought is another great mistake for so wee should put men upon a worke beyond their reach which were idle whereas the truth is that if the sufficiâ—ncy of such men as they intend to call into office bee not well knowne to them they use to call in the helpe and assistance of Elders in other Churches to surveigh their abilities and to informe them therein that thereby as well as by their owne experience of them and discerning of their gifts they may be able to give in their suffrage for election when the time comes 3. For their unmaking and deposing them againe when they see cause Wee hold and professe it a thing most injurious to Jesus Christ himselfe in heaven to his Ministers on earth and such a thing as not only Christ will summon Churches at the great day to answer unto but our Churches there will also expect satisfaction from them for it if they should thus depose Ministers as he saith when they see cause unlesse Christ himselfe shall see good cause to allow their fact to be done according to the rules of his owne word Wee are so farre from holding this that wee protest against such practises And to shew how wary wee are in this point no Church dares trust her owne judgement but our manner is as his quoted Authour speakes Answer to 34. q. of p. 41. Our practise is in removall of Ministers to have counsell and assistance from sister Churches 4. Whereas he saith also That we hold that men illiterate should preach with all authority which is a worke and a taske for the ablest Ministers to performe is as farre from us as any of the other For though wee deny not but in some case some able judicious experienced Christians may humbly soberly when necessity requires as in the want of Ministers being invited thereunto dispence now and then a word of exhortation to their brethren This is farre enough from Preaching in an ordinary way with all Authority which are words of his owne put in without any ground 5. But for him to adde that we hold they may thus preach when they have Officers and that without any reference at all to them is extreamly contrary to our practise and furthest from the truth For this would directly crosse Christ his institution of calling Officers in his Church and make meere cyphers of them whose Office it is not onely to preach but to rule and governe the Assembly to open the doore of speech to any in the congregation and to shut it up by silence so that none may so much as speak without his allowance ☞ And this expression of his is contrary to his owne Narration in Art 8. where he saith That some of the Acts we ascribe to our Ministers in Office are to declare unto their people the minde of God and to moderate in Church-meetings yet here he speakes cleane contrary to himselfe and the truth also ☞ 6. For him to adde That wee hold that Christ hath invested these illiterate men with all power to doe all these things so farre beyond their power and all ordinary possibility contrary to all rule and to his owne institution is to put upon us one of the grossest absurdities that ever was heard of even to make Christ crosse himselfe and to be a patron of confusion in his owne house by investing them with all power to oppose his owne rules of Order Now let us see what grounds our Nartatour hath to lay all these charges against us You will thinke sure his proofes are strong or hee would never have ventured to blemish so many thousands of Gods faithfull I servants in such sore accusations as these True hee quotes many and that I might see his bottom I have surveied all the printed Authors in every page quoted ☞ and I solemnly professe it that none of these particulars rehearsed as hee hath laid them downe much lesse in them all will any of them beare him out and I desire the Reader to try whether
termes contradictory and how the Churches of New-England for they are still the subject of this discourse can binde all their members to bee setled and yet allow some to bee transient I know not Hee must grant either a contradiction in his owne words or prove one in our practise 2. He affirmes we say That whosoever is not a member of such a Church as is before described i. e. A New-England Church is for the time without the visible Church of Christ and quotes Ans to 32 q. pag. 11. That Author is abused for hee saith not Answer that non-members of such a Church as you described i. e. of a N. E. Church are without the visible Church â—ns to 32. q. 38. but that if men be not members of some particular Church or other they may in some respect be said to bee without the power and priviledges of the visible Church as the Answ to 9. pos p. 62. to which this Author points makes it evident Now W. R. I hope knowes we hold there are other particular congregations both in England and else where besides our owne that are true Churches of Christ of any of which if they be members it is sufficient to make them within the visible Church of Christ Yet see how against our expressed judgements plaine words and the minde of his Authors hee would make us odious by laying such a grosse tenent to our charge 3. That whosoever doe not become setled members of our Churches are accounted despisers c. yea wicked and prophane â—nswer Hee againe rowles the same unhappy stone he did once before cap. 3. art 12. but you will say sure his proofes are strong which make him bold to assert this now the second time Therefore I intreate the Reader but to review his proofs which I will relate verbatim Ans to 9. Pos 62. is one of them he brings which saith thus We maintaine communion with all godly persons though they be not in Church fellowship with us and Idem p. 69. To be without Church fellowship is the case of some beleevers and Ans to 32. q. 11. is another of his quoted Authors whose words are these Some Christians that are not without Christ yet are not within any particular Church ☞ These are the Authors and pages he brings to prove the cleane contrary i. e. that we account all non-members wicked and prophane men and yet they directly say Some such are godly persons beleevers Christ c. Yea he hath an expression as he layes it downe exceeding grosse which is this That whosoever doth not become a setled member if possibly he can sinneth And marke what followeth whether he can or no he is accounted prophane and wicked He would make us up for the most absurd men that ever lived that whether mâ—n can possibly for so his word is inioy Church fellowship or no he is counted a prophane man But the blemish will and must needs fall upon himselfe To Marg. of 1. Art hee propounds 5 questions concerning transient members 1. Q. If it be very inconvenient and discommodious to ioyne at present may they not delay a while He answereth we say no but the place to which he points Ans to 32. 〈◊〉 quest p. 38. saith not so but thus A man is alwaies bound to join himselfe to some Church or other if possibly he can Now doth not W. R. know there is a pâ—ssibility of convenience which the Answer must needs meane for it 's a constant and allowed course in New-England for more to forbeare joyning to any Church for a time after they come thither meerly to avoyd discommodious inconveniencies which over hasty joyning sometimes puts men upon 2. Quest Why doe we not give the same liberty to all to be transient Mâ—mbers as we doe to some Ans Because all are not so free to abide with this or that Church where they joyne at present as others are by reason of some strong desires and pre-ingagements of joyning with some other congregation which at present they cannot remove unto or else the other as yet not entred into Church-fellowship and so unfit to receive them at present 3. Quest How doth this agree with the tenour of the Covenant that limits no timâ— Ans There may be and is such a clause put into the Covenant of a transient member viz. during their abode with that congregation Quest 4. How doth this agree with the sense of the Covenant that binds them to aske counsell of the Church in case of removeall Ans I know not what informations he hath received I should know our practise as well as W. R. after my 10. yeers experience having beene present at very many Church-gatherings but I never heard or heard of such a clause put into any Covenant and yet three times in his booke he mentionâ— this Let him learne hereafter 1. to be slow in beleeving informations 2 slower to print them to the world 3. ready to retract them if nor done already He saith Art 5 That if the examiners conceive a man not fit to enter into Church fellowâ—â—â—p thâ—â— he is there staid without any further proceedings He should hâ—ve added only for the present else he leaves the Reader to conceive that such a person is staid from Church fellowship for ever which himsâ—â—â—e knowes to be untrue as appeares by his own words in the 7. Art w â—re he saith that such a Person is staid only for a time whiles all things are cl ared To his Margent Art 7. That if the party be a Woman or weake who is to be admitted then their examination are taken more privately Answer Is not this contradictory to what he said Chap. 3 Art 6. ☜ That the declaration of their knowledge and grace must be made in publique before all the Church though never so many Now to presse all to make their declaration before the whole Assembly yet to accept of some weaker ones doing of it more privatly which indeed is the truth are a contradiction Here he makes two objections Objection 1 How shall the Church know the fitnesse of such i. e. as are examined in private Answ By the testimony of such godly men whom they betrust with their triall who though they have not absolute power to determine yet making such report to the Church as they accept the Church proceede to admit them â—bject Why is this favour shewen to some not to others is not this to be partiall contrary to 1 Tim. 5.21 Answ Partiality is to respect the Person not the cause here the cause is respected not the Person or the Person for the cause Some being more weake and fearfull we rather tender as Jacob would not overdrive the feabler sort of Ewes and lambes lest they should miscarry Art 9. He reports That infants of parents that are no members are accounted to be without the visible Church and in the same estate with the Children of Turkes and Heathens c.
could scarse have beleeved it possible hee should have written it no penne can expresse a greater latitude of opposition agaist Magistracy and lawes and Churches too then here he affirmes to be in us if you review the six parcells mentioned you will see it To all which I say 1 there is neither truth in it nor any proofe of all for any of these six except the first But God and men our consciences writings our professions and constant practises will rebuke testifie against this misreport For now you would in reason expect some proofes would you not for this accusation ☜ You shall heare his cited Author himselfe speake Answ to 32. q p. 35 36. which saith thus Observing the things commanded of God in a peaceable way yeelding due reverence to all in Authority I praying for them This observing Gods Ordinances cannot bee unlawfull for lacke of the command of man The scope of all his Author speakes is this That Christians may observe Gods Ordinances though they have no command from the Magistrate so to do now where is doing of this against his commands His peremptory command yea against his lawes and established lawes and not the lawes of an Heathen but a Christian State and not against a State only but against the mindes of all the Churches of God amongst us These are all his owne additions that so he might loade his brethren with contempt How durst he bring in all these words as his Authors and yet he knowes they all are his owne 2. As it is against truth and without ground â—o it is contrary to himselfe and his owne words Chap. 5. Art 2. and Art 4. where he expresseth that notice must bee and is given to the Magistrates and Churches before their joyning in Church fellowship Yet here in this Art he saith we hold 〈◊〉 and ought to doe it without their consents and against their minds how can thâ—se agree And whereas he quotes R. M. to prove that before Churches joynâ— they give notice thereof to the Magistrate and other Churches yet here he bring the same R. M to prove we may and doe joyne without their consent Let this also be noted that he speakes not only of our judgement what we hold we may and ought to doe in this case but of our practise also what we doe as appeares in last words of the Margent wee looke he should make that good also i. e. that in our practise wee doe thus oppose State and Churches in our joyning in Church fellowship 5. He againe crosseth himselfe for in this Art hee saith wee hold that Christians may ought to set up new Churches against the minds of other Churches and yet he in his Marg. saith that we deny them i. e. himselfe and some others any liberty to doe thus Ans He must prove either that we hold him and the rest no Christians or that we crosse our own rules and principles or else freely acknowledge a mistake in his word Thus having done with his Booke I should now come to the Postscript which I was fully purposed to have answered also But now seeing my booke farre beyond expectation swelling I should be loath to tire out the Reader besides I have touched upon many things therin already and the rest most of them being built upon his booke must of themselves fall with it and yet if it be requisite and worth the while I shall be ready to doe it when I see cause A Postscript to W. R. NOw I intreate you in the bowels of Christ and the spirit of meekenesse to review your own worke weigh my Answer without prejudice and consider well how many pretious Saints and godly Churches deare to Christ persecuted heretofore by Prelats loving to your selfe without their least stimulation of you in this kind you have in your Narration extremely wronged whether through over-much credulity incogitancie or otherwise I dispute not Sure I am it is done and so done that it is almost incredible as one would thinke but you should now at least see your error which if God shall open your eyes in whole or in part to doe as I humbly beseech him you may it will bee your honour â—xod 21. â—3 34. and no small argument of your selfe deniall to recall There was a law in Israel that he that digged a pit was not to leave it open but cover it else what ever dammage happened he was to make it good You are able to make application Solomon Austin c. never gained so much as by their retractations There are some sinnes God will not sense up the pardon of till satisfaction be made by the party Defamation is one of them It wil be no griefe of heart but much comfort to remember when you are about to leave this world that although through praecipitancy you did blemish your Brethren yet after consideration you did againe as readily wipe away the blot by a brotherly vindication as for as truth required which if â—â—â—ter conviction you shall for beare to do upon what pretence soever how will you be able to lye downe in your grave in peace FINIS
AN ANSWER TO W. R. HIS NARRATION of the Opinions and Practises of the Churches lately erected in Nevv-England Vindicating those Godly and Orthodoxall Churches from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their Church way by the said W. R. in his Booke Wherein is plainely proved 1. That the grounds of his Narration are sandie and insufficient 2. That the maner of his handling it unloving and irregular 3. That the matter of it ful of grosse mistakes divers contradictions 4. That the quotations extremely wrested and out of measure abused 5. That his Marginall notes impertinent and injurious By THOMAS WELDE Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in NEVV-ENGLAND Jude 10. They speake evill of things they know not Prov. 18.17 He that is first in his owne case seemeth just but his neighbour commeth after and searcheth him This is Licensed and Entered according to Order LONDON Printed by Tho Paine for H. Overton and are to be sold at his shop entring into Popes-Head Alley out of Lumbard-Streete 1644. THE EPISTLE TO THE REDAER THere was a law in Israell Deut. 22.18 19 that if any man did bring an ill name upon a Virgin of Israell the matter was to come before the Elders and hee was to bee chastised and amerced an hundred shekells of silver There is one W. R. if thou knowest the man that hath brought many ill reports not upon one Virgin but all the Virgin-Churches of New-England When thou seest him do so much as bring him forth to Answer this law Tell him wee purpose to try an Action with him and have satisfaction from him And if hee saith hee hath not raised these reports himselfe but had them from others Then tell him again from us that cannot satisfie for we have learned from divine and humane lawes that if any bee taken reporting of slaunders as wee shall abundantly shew hee hath do◠his Narrative he may be charged as the raiser of ◠〈◊〉 hee can cleare himselfe by bringing such Authors into light as will owne them Dut. 17.6 2 Cor. 13.1 1 Tim. 5.19 But if he will not or cannot wee must lay them at his owne doore It s for all the severall reports in his booke brought against us and our wayes we expect the rule of Moses and the Apo-stle Paul that in the mouth of two or three witnesses and not under every matter should be established to produce Barrow Browne Robinson c. for Authors for they were dead before New-England Churches were borne or H. W. T. P. and I know not what private letters lying by him in his study for wee know not their voyce nor let him say it was told me as he often doth for wee protest against such testimony nor I was informedso c. for sama est mendax and prejudice hardly speakes well of any Tell him wee will goe to aged Paul hee was a good Divine to bee our Vmpire to determine what witnesse we must have in a case of accusation and to his verdict wee will stand which is set downe plainely 1 Tim. 5.19 Three things more let me say to the reader and I have done 1. Wonder not this Answer staid so long for it had certainly taken his narrative by the heele but that some speciall providence whose distracted lines intercepted the truth is I thought it should neede no other Answer then it selfe untill I perceived some ill effects of it 2 But why doe I undertake this worke Answer 1. I am one of the nearest kinsmen to those Churches of any other man in these parts and therefore I take my selfe bound to the name of my Brethren in a righteous way and not let it die through my neglect 2. Few or none are here have had more experience of New-England Church courses then my selfe through many yeares continuance with them and to whom I am returning when God makes way and am therefore able to speake on certainty and with conscience where W. R. departs from the truth in his relations 3. I have beene pressed by word of mouth and sundry letters to doe it therefore if I should hold my peace when I am called to speake and see so many innocent Churches suffer I should not lift up my face to God nor my Brethren there God knowes my spirit how exceeding loath I was to controvert with a Brother though but a defendant and to uncover his nakednesse but when God calls I am bound with Moses when he saw the Ebrew did wrong to his Brother to say why smitest thou thy fellow Exod. 2.13 3. Touching the answer it selfe some things I would say 1 I thinke it not meete to answer all I could nor to every particular especially in his Marginall extravagances that would be too tedious For our principall passages being answered unto the rest will fall of themselves 2. Nor to answer any thing in his booke so oft as hee repeates it for divers things are fetched over by him some three some foure severall times what his reasons are himselfe can best give account 3. Neither is it possible for me to answer the sayings of his private letters lying by him such a ground of Church stories as I never heard of because I know neither who they are nor what their owne words are or if I did were it materiall 4. Thou seest I have a three fold worke to answer 1. his Articles 2 his quotations 3 his Margent All which I have indeavored faithfully as in Gods presence to doe what oversight or infirmity hath passed my penne therein I crave thy pardon for we are weake men and God knowes too apt to forget our selves in greater things then these 5. What I here write is onely from my selfe if any weakenesse appeare impute it not I pray thee to the case in hand or our Churches iudgements there but to my owne frailty rather 6. Nor is it my scope to discusse the points of Discipline that worke is in abler hands but I looke upon his booke as an historicall narration and accordingly I frame my answer 7. Though he brings not the words of any of his Authors cited which had been fairer and might have kept him in closer bonds yet I have done it for him especially in the last sixe or eight Chapters that you may iudge whether hee hath dealt fairely with them or no. 8. When I recite W. R. his words in his narration you will see I have dealt candidly with him either mentioning his very words or so many of them as containe their full strength whereto my answer tends 9. When at any time in my answer I say such an Article or such a clause is untrue or is false I am not willing to impute the falsity thereof to the Authors knowledge I would iudge otherwise of him then so but to the thing it selfe asserted which may be done through his misinformation or mistake I will say no more but commit thy spirit to the wise guidance of the Father of lights who
2. That good Ministers are laid aside there 2. many good Ministers 3 on this ground because they aime at men of special abilities And whereas he saith he was told so that is not sufficient Let him produce his Authors or it must lie on him I wonder he counts it strange in Art 3. that we should desire to have a man to be a Member before he be an Officer Is it not a thing most naturall for a body to imploy it's own Members Answ 2. Is not the mutuall interest in each other the stronger tye â— Doe not all bodies and societies in the world the very same Was eveâ— any man of another corporation elected Sheriffe Major or into any speciall office in London unlesse he were first seasoned with this same salt as he saith of Membership of the same body To the 4 Art of ordaining Ministers by private men Let him not wonder at this for Numb 8.10 he may see Answer that though the Levites were Church Officers and the Children of Israel were not yet the Children of Israel did lay their hands upon the Levites And though all the Children of Israel could not doe this yet some principall ones did it instead of the rest So it may be lawfull in some case to doe the like 2. If people have a power of election of Officers which is the greater then why may they not ordaine them which is the lesse unto the office which before they elected them to But I referre the Reader to see more of this in Mr. Mathers late answer to Mr. Herle pag. 45. To the 5. Art where he saith We hold the imposition of hands of the Presbyterie but a meere formality â—nswer Doth he judge all the Churches and Ministers of Christ there so devoyd of Religion reason or the light of common sense as to account a venerable Ordinance of God a meere formality But that you may see whether he deals well with us or no vid. Ans to 34. q. p. 67. where its expresly said That though the essence of a Ministers call consists in Election yet we looke at ordination by imposition of hands necesary by divine institution can he with any shew of reason explicate a thing necessary by divine institution by a meere formality is this right commenting upon the text And note also that this very place cited is one proofe he brings for this Article but whether for him or directly against him I pray judge For the other printed proofe discourse of Covenant p. 23. I confidently affirme there is not any one word or the least shew for such an expression let the Reader prove whether I wrong him or no but only that people have power to choose their own Officers Let him not delude the world by thwacking quotations on his Articles when it 's an usuall thing that some of them speake nothing for him others directly against him In Margent of 5. Art he saith That all that are elected by thâ— people to preaâ—h which is one chiefe duty of the Pastour and doe receive by compact the dues by law to the Pastour â—â—uld be their Pastour Ans Though preaching by a Pastour called into office be one of the principall workes of his office yet all preaching is not a Pastorall worke as Act. 8.4 The scattered Church without respect to an office are said to preach the word every where Now if a man be called by a congregation to exercise his gift in this worke of preaching only and not to be a Pastour to them should he not exceed the bounds of his call if he should be as W. R. would have him a Pastour to that people And by this reason also he condemnes all Lecturers and I suppose himselfe in so doing for they are called to preach yet no man lookes on them or they on theÌ„selves as Pastours of that place where they so exercise As for the dues he receives for his preaching whether more or lesse by a compact or otherwise whether of the same kind with the Pastour or not is not materiall for it 's his call not his wages makes him a Pastour or no Pastour In the Marg. of the 6. Art he saith that one Pastour or Teacher alone or one private man layes on his hands It hath neither proofe nor truth Answ but is against our judgements and practise and so I leave him to looke over such ungrounded and loose speeches cast upon our way Art 7. That in our practise we usually confound the Pastours Teachers office the Pastour and Teacher equally teaching and applying the word without any difference This hath no more truth then the other Answer for it is both our professed judgements and constant practise that as the teacher is chosen whose proper gift is aptnesse to teach so after hee is chosen hee bends himselfe that way and waites upon teaching so the Pastor upon exhotting as Rom. 12.7 8. Though in such congregations where there is but one hee labours to improve his talent both waies for the present necessity till that defect be supplyed as good reason he hath so to doe And for his proofe see how punctuall he is he turnes us to Mr. Cot. Sermons on the Revel and other Texts Would he have us looke over all Master Cot. Sermons which may be at least 500. or 1000 pages to find his proofes and when we have done we shall be just where we were for Mr. Cot. we know is expresly contrary to him and for that we turne him not to all his Sermons as he doth us but to one certaine place in his Cat. p. 2. whose words are these The Pastors speciall worke is to attend upon exhortation The Teacher on Doctrine and his owne and others practises there run accordingly In the Marg. to this Article he saith That some of us doe question the Communion of Churches as a thing overthrowing some of our principles 2 that others to uphold it have invented a power in one Minister to translate his owne power to another Minister to administer the seales and censures to any of their members Both these are ungrounded unproved expressions Answ and but repealed by him now answered before by us therefore I passe them by As for that Inference he seemes to drawe that every Ministeriall act without power and irregularly done it seemes voyd and so millions of persons unbaptised to this day This might have beene spared for that maxim in law well approved of by Divines in this case quod fieri non debuit factum valâ—t holds good here Answ I know no grounds that Zipporah had to have circumcised her sonne for it was proper to the man as Gen. 17.9.23 yet being done it was not void or null though a Priest popishly affected should baptise a child with many invented superstitious the child is not looked on as unbaptised To Art 9. he saith wee hold All other acts besides administration of the Sacraments are common to members as well as to Ministers Ans 1.
of error delivered before all the people So as it is a scandall to the people a reproach to the Minister c. all this is his own addition Then for the other cited Author Answer to 32 q. 78 he deales more grosely with him then the former who is in a manner point-blanck against him yet hee boldly gives him up for an Author his words are these we never knew any Minister that did call upon the people thus to doe i. e. to propound questions and such calling upon them is farre from us some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question upon very urgent and weighty cause none iudge the ordinary practise of it necessary but if not meekely and wisely carried inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any in most Churches neere True it is in the times of the opinions some were bold in this kinde but these men are long since gone the Synod and Sermons have reproved this disorder so that a man may now live from one end of the yeere to another in these congregations and not heare any man opening his mouth in such kind of questions These the Authors words ☞ Now good reader do us the favour to give righteous judgement whether these words cited by him make for him or against him where is 1 giving leave 2 a course of giving leave 3 to any 4 to obiect and urge pro and con and 6 which is horribly grosse to implead the Minister of error at the first dash and that openly before all the people c. Whereas his own cited Authors tells him the contrary 1 That it is done not often but seldome 2 Not many questions but a question 3 Not upon sleight but weighty and very urgent grounds 4 Not rashly and boldly but wisely and meekely 5 And this not perâ—mptorily concluded of by all but some only thinke they have a liberty 6 And not that it is now so much done but was for a time by the bold opinionist who are now chased away long agoe See what a vast gulfe betwixt the Author and W. R. Now for him to reade over distinctly all these expressions in this booke for that answer was written to himselfe from godly men in New-England yet to produce it as a proofe for his Art and the Marg. which in common sence is contrary to it I stand amazed at it and wonder with what face he could print it or having done it how he can let his book be kept from the fire thus long Yet further note our Narratour undertakes to relate only such Church-courses as are generally by the Churche in New-England practised as pag. 1. title How then can he with honesty bring in this asking of questions amongst such kind of generall Church courses of ours whereas his Author plainely saith this asking of questions is not Generally practised nor by all the Churches but sildome in any Church and in most Churches never at all and that one may live as he saith from one end of the yeere to another in our congregations and not here any man open his mouth in such kind of questions What will not W. R. boldly attempt against his brethren of the independent way and their Churches that cites these very words I have related to prove such Church courses in New-England as are generally practised amongst us Answer to CHAP. XIIII TO Marg. on the Title Some saith he grow shie of the word independent some utterly renounce it yet most owne it Answer If the word bee rightly taken as in Answer to 32. q. 46. it 's expounded for one Church that is not under the power of another or in subjection to a Presbyterie but as having received power from Christ to governe her selfe according to his lawes Then all accord to it But if the word Independent bee abusively taken as it is often with the vulgar for such a Society as are neither subject to Magistracy nor regard the counsel of other Churches but are a conceipted and selfe-sufficient people that stand onely on their owne leggs Then wee have cause to be shie of a word that may render us odious without cause To Marg. of 1 Art That wee have store of imperative Churches who may command yea compell both members and Ministers to act Ans Another slaunder without ground or proofe or truth which I leave here upon record God our consciences and our Brethren bearing us witnesse how tender our Churches are but to perswade men to act without light much more to command or compell both which very words though the thing required were lawfull are odious in the Churches of Christ most fitly becomming the Synagogues of Antichrist Hath hee a lycense to speake any thing To Art 2. We hold our Church power absolute and imperiall Answ All we use to speake of our Church-power is that it is ministeriall which is farre from absolute and imperiall words fitter for Emperours of this world then the Churches of the Saints I charge it on his conscience as in the sight of God either to make this appeare or else vindicate us as becomes an honest Christian to doe And for his two printed Authors cited for we cannot come at his private letters if there be any one word or shew of ground from them to maintaine his speech Let me beare the shame of it for I here avouch the contrary under my hand To Art 3. and Marg. That we deny all representation of Churches absent and all authoritative deputation of Messengers to act for them â—nsw 1. The Reader may well see it is his own saying not ours for he brings no proofe but from Barrow and Johnson who cannot well give in their testimony for our Church waies in New-England because they never came there yea were in their graves both or one long before ever wee had a beeing in New-England 2. There is no truth in it for we hold a Church may delegate some men and send them forth in their names and stead with authority to act for them in this or that particular businesse of trust as Act. 15.2 And yet he hath boldly now twise or thrise affirmed the same thing of us and brings no proofe at all for it and it is answered before cap. 2. Art 3. Marg. Yet some tells us saith he that Mr. P. and Mr. W. were sent hither by the Churches to negotiate for them c. Answ 1. Some tell us Sir you are a man of judgement and gravity able to instruct others You know you may not blemish your brethren and slâ—nder Churches upon such poore and weake grounds as it is reported I am informed some tell us And yet how oft in your booke have you used this course of dealing towards your bretbren and their Churches Some tell us indeede is warrant enough for people that have no other businesse to make three farthing bookes of and thereby fill the world with tales but oh farre be