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A19658 A deliberat answere made to a rash offer, which a popish Antichristian catholique, made to a learned protestant (as he saieth) and caused to be publyshed in printe: Anno. Do[mini] 1575 Wherein the Protestant hath plainly [and] substantially prooued, that the papists that doo nowe call themselues Catholiques are in deed antichristian schismatiks; and that the religious protestants, are in deed the right Catholiques: VVriten by Robert Crowley: in the yeere, 1587. Crowley, Robert, 1518?-1588. 1588 (1588) STC 6084; ESTC S110998 131,595 191

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third about the ende of that 600. yéeres They that were in the tyme of the first 600 yéeres were persecuted by the dragan that is by the estate of Roome vnder the tirrannous Emperours And they that haue béene since and are now haue béene and styll are persecuted by the beast that hath two hornes lyke a Lambe that is the estate of Roome vnder the Papacie Apoc. 13. Apoc 13 These Prophets of booth sortes haue béene and are still styrred vp by him that is the giuer of all good giftes at hys ple●sure to worke his wyll in such tymes as he hath fore appoynted But there hath not béene at any time any continuall and orderly succession of them such as you require the Protestants to prooue neither dooth it help any thing at all for the proofe of true and right Religion to haue any such continuall and orderly succession except all the successors doo hold the same Religion and doo walke in the same steps that their first Predecessor held and walked in Amongst your Popes very few or none can bée founde that haue held the religion of Peter walked in his steps Your Boniface the third which was the first of your Apostatat Popes shewed him selfe to bée of a far other minde then Peter was otherwise hee would neuer haue sought for and with great contention haue obtained that name of vniuersall Bishop which Gregorie the first refused as a prophane name and a signe of the fore runner of Antichrist This would haue bin a lusty lad if hee might haue continued in the estate of a Pope many yéeres but hée was cut of by death in the ninth moneth after hee was made Pope The rest that haue succeeded euen vntill this day haue in one point walked in the steps of this Bonifacius for they all haue taken vpon them and kept the title of vniuersall Bishop and so dooth hee that dooth now enioy that place And so by good consequence it may bee said that they are all Antichristian But to returne to our purpose That church whereof the Protestants bee members hath had Apostles as longe time as th' office of an Apostle was necessary for hir In like maner shee hath had Prophets of both sortes Euangelists also shee hath had and hath still whose office is to water that which the Apostles haue planted Of this sorte was Timoth. and so was Apollos and others that were when they were and in the first 600. yeeres after Christs ascention And such bee they in these dayes which are able to instruct and doo labour to instruct Christians how to leade a christian life and to bee assured of Saluation onely by the mediation of Christ Iesus that promised Seede through whom all the nations of the world are promised to be happy and blessed Pastors and doctors also our Church hath alwaies had and now hath The Popes catholiques neuer had the like These are they that God hath made able to breake the breade of life to the flocke of Christ and to teach instruct them in all necessary knowledge to saluation And these as the others are made able stirred vp to worke in the Lords Haruest by him that as oft as néede is sendeth forth laborers into his Haruest Hée is not bound to maintaine a cōtinuall orderly succession but when it pleaseth him to punish the vnthankfulnes of his people by taking from them such as hee hath made méete and able to execute these offices amongst them hee may and in iustice hée dooth That so his people may learne to vse such good gifts better when they shall againe enioy them And as for that popish-Catholique church which your sort doo call the knowne Catholique church neuer had such Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Doctors as S. Paule ment of in his writing to the Ephes For that Church was not hatched before the dayes of Boniface the third And therefore that church neither had nor could haue any such Apostles Prophets or Euangelists as our church had in the six hundreth yeeres next after the ascention of our sauiour I conclude therefore that neither our Church which is the right Catholique church nor yours which is the right Antichristian church hath had any such continuall and orderly succession as you require the Protestant to prooue by the Ecclesiasticall hystories I see no cause therefore why you should not recant and relent although you haue hitherto refused so to doo The ninth Offer Offerer Ninth Where as the Protestants by the drift of reason and Argument are forced of the Catholiques to acknowledge and confesse their Church and Congregations to haue lien hidden vnknowne for the space of one whole thousand yeeres togither without all the foresaid functions and ministrations of Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Doctors of their gospell faith and religion at the least wise to be openly perceiued knowne if therefore they shall be able for the space of that whole time to prooue by auncient writers of Ecclesiasticall hystories any other word gospell or doctrine to be vniuersally openly taught any other sacraments to be ministred any other discipline or correction to be practised any other iudgements decrees Canons or lawes to be executed then those which were daily practised in the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ I will then recant and not before Crowley This Offerer would beare vs in hand that wée Protestants are by the drift of reason and argument enforced to confesse c. Hée dooth vs great wrong in that hée auoutcheth that wée confesse that for the space of a thousand yéeres togither wée had no maner function or ministration c. As though wée should confesse that wée had no gospel no faith no religion And yet his owne conscience driueth him to say thus At the least wise to be openly perceiued known Well then his owne conscience telleth him that wée had those ministrations and that it was knowne that wée had them but not openly It appéereth that this man vnderstandeth nothing of the mysterie of that woman that the Apostle Iohn saw in his vision Apoc. 12. Apoc. 12. If these Antichristian Catholiques could content them selues to bée taught by such as God hath stirred vp made able to open the meaning of this mystery they should sée that the right Catholique church of Christ hath bin in Wildernesse euer since the Male childe that shee brought foorth was taken vp into heauen Yea although shee bee clad with the sunne and hath the Moone vnder hir feete yet doo not these men so sée hir that they may discerne hir from the congregations of the heathen bicause their sight is such as the sight of Howlets and such other night fowles that cannot endure the brightnes of the sunne Immediately after our sauiour Christ was ascended into heauen the Dragon that olde serpent the deuill Satan being vanquished by Michael and his Angels expelled out of heauen and cast downe to the earth did persecute the
to burie them with theyr fathers in the buriall places that belonged to them And they found vnder the garmentes of them that were slaine certaine of the giftes that had béene offered to the idols that were at Iamnia from which the lawe had commaunded the Iewes to abstaine It was therefore made manifest to al men that this was the cause wherefore they were slaine The whole companie therfore did commend the iust iudgement of the Lorde which had made manifest the déedes that had béene hidde and kept secret And so they gaue themselues to prayer and besought God that the faulte which had béene committed might be blotted out of memorie But the most valiant man Iudas exhorted the people to kéepe themselues without sinne hauing euen before theyr eyes those thinges that had happened for the sinnes of them that were slaine And hauing ended his Collation hee sent to Ierusalem 12 thousande drachmas of siluer that sacrifice might bee offered for the sinnes of them that were dead Thus farre goeth the report of that which was doone by Iudas Machabaeus This is translated out of that latine text that the Tridentine councell hath allowed of which text this Offerer and his fellowes may not disalowe of In the Gréeke the sence is vncertaine and hardly can there any certaine sence be gathered in this place And this one thing I must note that where as this vulgare translation hath 12. thousande drachmas the Gréeke hath but two thousande drachmas which together with the rest of the circumstaunces of the texte doo cause me to thinke that Iudas néeded not to make any collection of money to be sent to Ierusalem For y●●●m being no greater he might very wel spare it out of his own treasure as it may be supposed Hauing therefore ended his collation or concion which he made to the whole company of hys Souldiours that then were about him wherein hée exhorted them to consider of that which had happened and to take warning thereby to bée careful to kéepe themselues from sinne lest the lyke should fall vpon them also he sent that summe of money to Ierusalem that Sacrifice might be offered there for the sinnes of them that were dead Slaine by the iust iudgement of God for that contrarie to the lawe they had taken to theyr own vse some of those things that had béene offered to the Idolles of Iamnia But what Shall we thinke that Iudas Machabeus being a man so precise in obseruing the lawe of God as in this Historie it dooth appeare that he was would cause any newe kinde of Sacrifice to be deuised or that he wold cause any of those Sacrifices that Moses had by Gods direction commaunded to be offered to bée vsed for any other purpose then for those purposes that God himselfe had ordayned them for If you will reade the whole Leuiticall lawe throughout you shal not finde that euer God did command any Sacrifice to bée offered for sinne other then that which is called a sinne offering and was to be offered for penitent sinners in such sorte as the lawe dooth prescribe which was in the presence of the penitent sinner him selfe laying hys hand vpon the head of the Sacrifised beast thereby signifying that it was he that had deserued that death which that innocent beast was there and then to suffer The sacrifice therefore which Iudas would haue to be offered at Ierusalem must néedes be of that kinde which is called a peace offering and was to be vsed for the pacifying of Gods wrath which should at any tyme by any occasion be bent eyther against the whole people or against any one sorte of the people for any offence committed amongest them Iudas therefore considering that God might in iustice as often tymes he had doone visite the sinne of the fathers vpon the children euen to the third and fourth generation in them them that committing willing and wilfull sin had shewed themselues to be haters of his maiesty feared least this iust iudgement should be executed vpon such amongst his people as remained yet aliue and were of the posteritie of them that were already slaine for that wickednes that they had committed The writer of the historie therefore hath doone great wronge to Iudas in that which hee addeth to the ende of this parte of this History Bearing hys readers in hand that Iudas ment to redéeme by Sacrifice the sinne that the flayne had committed and to teache that to pray for the deade that they may be released of theyr sinnes is an holy and an holsome cogitation Thus if this offerer and his fellowes wyll they may sée vpon how slender a foundation their opinion conceruing praying for the soules departed is builded I doo conclude therefore that theyr vowes their inuocation of saintes and praying for soules departed are superfluous Yea and as they haue conceyued opinion of them superstitious and as they doo vse them very impious But finally this Offerer dooth charge vs with speaking against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to bée heard speake perceyued or séene Here I must say that this Popish offerer dooth offer the Protestantes open wrong in charging them with that which neuer any one amongest them that is learned hath affirmed spoken or thought It may be that some such amongest the Protestants as haue not had the knowledge of the arte of reasoning haue béene by captions manner of reasoning brought into such a mase that they could not deliuer themselues from the captious Argumentes that these subtyle Popish Catholiques doo vse to frame And so haue séemed to be conuinced and enforced to graunt that Christ hath no visible Church here vppon earth but such amongst the Protestant Catholiques as doo knowe howe to answer such captious argumentes are able and haue alwayes béene able to vse such distinction as by the Arte of reasoning are allowed to bée vsed and thereby to make it playne to as many as be not wilfully blind that Christs Church that is here vpon earth may in one respect be sayd to be visible and in another respect the same Church may be sayd to bée inuisible 2. Timot 2. The Apostle Paule writing to Timoth 2 Epist 2 chapter sayth thus Firmum fundamentum Dei stat habens signaculum hoc Cognouit dominus qui sunt sui c. The foundation of God standeth firme and sure and hath this sure seale The Lord dooth knowe who be hys And let that person that calleth vpon the name of the Lord departe from euill Here the Apostle Paule dooth make the Church of Christ here on earth inuisible as knowen onely to the Lord and not vnto any man For none but onely God dooth knowe or can knowe who they bée whome hée hath chosen to be enheritors of hys kyngdome Yea none but onely God whych hath chosen them before the beginning of the world And such onely are that Church that may rightly be called the church of Christ And