probable_a then_o compare_v it_o with_o the_o latter_a he_o say_v it_o be_v more_o probable_a than_o it_o yet_o the_o latter_a be_v more_o fit_a for_o convince_a the_o heretic_n where_o note_n that_o their_o best_a way_n be_v but_o probable_a and_o the_o heretic_n must_v be_v convince_v in_o this_o point_n by_o that_o way_n which_o be_v less_o than_o probable_a so_o uncertain_a be_v this_o article_n of_o their_o faith_n so_o unlikely_a to_o convince_v heretic_n however_o they_o persuade_v their_o people_n to_o it_o this_o author_n say_v nothing_o to_o their_o know_v of_o prayer_n he_o have_v indeed_o no_o reason_n to_o give_v himself_o the_o trouble_n of_o dispute_v that_o which_o their_o church_n can_v agree_v on_o beside_o all_o that_o have_v be_v say_v to_o it_o methinks_v reason_n shall_v tell_v they_o how_o improbable_a it_o be_v that_o a_o finite_a creature_n shall_v admit_v and_o take_v care_n of_o ten_o thousand_o suit_n put_v up_o to_o it_o at_o once_o or_o that_o it_o shall_v be_v consistent_a with_o the_o state_n of_o bliss_n for_o those_o glorify_a soul_n to_o be_v take_v up_o or_o avocate_v by_o the_o care_n of_o earthly_a affair_n yea_o such_o as_o for_o the_o most_o part_n be_v of_o a_o dolorous_a nature_n if_o god_n reveal_v unto_o they_o the_o conversion_n of_o a_o sinner_n as_o luk._n 15.7_o which_o sometime_o be_v make_v a_o argument_n by_o they_o its_o a_o matter_n of_o joy_n and_o answerable_a to_o their_o general_a vote_n and_o intercession_n for_o the_o accomplish_n of_o the_o church_n and_o consistent_a with_o their_o state_n of_o bliss_n now_o come_v we_o to_o the_o prayer_n of_o man_n live_v one_o for_o another_o depart_v prayer_n of_o man_n live_v for_o other_o no_o argument_n for_o pray_v to_o saint_n depart_v often_o urge_v by_o this_o and_o other_o their_o author_n who_o have_v no_o permission_n or_o appointment_n from_o god_n word_n for_o make_v the_o saint_n depart_v their_o mediator_n and_o advocate_n in_o the_o court_n of_o heaven_n seek_v pretence_n from_o this_o duty_n of_o the_o live_n therefore_o to_o a_o protestant_a ask_v how_o dare_v they_o admit_v of_o any_o other_o mediator_n or_o advocate_n than_o christ_n this_o author_n rejoynd_n how_o dare_v protestant_n permit_v their_o child_n to_o pray_v they_o to_o pray_v to_o god_n for_o they_o for_o what_o be_v this_o but_o to_o be_v mediator_n and_o advocate_n pa._n 61._o and_o of_o protestant_n usual_o commend_v themselves_o to_o the_o prayer_n of_o other_o this_o say_v he_o be_v the_o very_a same_o intercession_n we_o put_v among_o the_o saint_n and_o angel_n pa._n 62._o thus_o they_o be_v fain_o some_o time_n to_o mince_v it_o but_o a_o great_a disparity_n there_o be_v between_o the_o desire_v of_o the_o prayer_n of_o the_o live_n and_o their_o invocate_a of_o saint_n or_o angel_n also_o between_o the_o prayer_n or_o intercede_v of_o man_n live_v for_o other_o and_o that_o mediation_n or_o advocateship_n they_o put_v upon_o saint_n depart_v first_o we_o have_v warrant_n for_o the_o one_o and_o not_o for_o the_o other_o we_o therefore_o dare_v desire_v the_o prayer_n of_o the_o live_n because_o we_o be_v command_v to_o pray_v one_o for_o another_o and_o diverse_a reason_n there_o be_v for_o it_o which_o hold_v not_o in_o the_o other_o case_n the_o mutual_a exercise_n of_o charity_n among_o those_o that_o converse_v together_o on_o earth_n and_o much_o need_v that_o bond_n as_o the_o apostle_n call_v it_o to_o hold_v they_o together_o 3.14_o eph._n 4.3_o col._n 3.14_o also_o the_o benefit_n we_o receive_v by_o be_v make_v sensible_a of_o other_o want_n and_o suffering_n 3._o heb._n c._n 13_o 3._o we_o ourselves_o be_v also_o in_o the_o body_n as_o the_o apostle_n tell_v we_o last_o in_o this_o there_o be_v no_o peril_n of_o superstition_n as_o there_o must_v needs_o be_v in_o their_o religious_a address_n to_o the_o dead_a second_o our_o pray_v other_o to_o pray_v for_o we_o be_v not_o invocation_n or_o a_o religious_a worship_n as_o they_o be_v to_o the_o saint_n depart_v they_o place_v a_o great_a part_n of_o their_o office_n of_o religion_n both_o public_a and_o private_a in_o such_o invocation_n three_o as_o the_o live_n when_o they_o be_v desire_v to_o pray_v for_o we_o be_v capable_a of_o this_o charitable_a duty_n know_v our_o necessity_n which_o saint_n depart_v do_v not_o so_o their_o pray_v for_o we_o do_v not_o make_v they_o mediator_n and_o advocate_n for_o we_o that_o be_v of_o a_o middle_a order_n between_o we_o and_o god_n almighty_a as_o they_o make_v their_o mediator_n of_o intercession_n but_o as_o comprecatores_fw-la fellow-suiter_n of_o the_o same_o rank_n condition_n and_o distance_n with_o we_o from_o god_n in_o the_o mutual_a exercise_n of_o this_o charitable_a duty_n they_o pray_v for_o we_o at_o our_o entreaty_n and_o we_o for_o they_o at_o they_o st._n aug._n speak_v home_o to_o this_o purpose_n in_o two_o instance_n from_o scripture_n mediator_n aug._n contra_fw-la epist_n parmen_fw-la l_o 2._o c._n 8._o non_fw-la se_fw-la facit_fw-la mediatorem_fw-la inter_fw-la deum_fw-la &_o populum_fw-la sed_fw-la rogat_fw-la pro_fw-la se_fw-la orent_fw-la inuicem_fw-la si_fw-la paulus_n mediator_n esset_fw-la non_fw-la ei_fw-la constaret_fw-la ratio_fw-la qua_fw-la dixerat_fw-la unus_fw-la mediator_n st._n paul_n make_v not_o himself_o a_o mediator_n between_o god_n and_o the_o people_n but_o entreat_v they_o shall_v pray_v one_o for_o the_o other_o so_o the_o live_a pray_v for_o one_o another_o be_v not_o therefore_o mediator_n nay_o do_v it_o upon_o mutual_a entreaty_n and_o intimation_n be_v therefore_o not_o mediator_n if_o st._n paul_n shall_v be_v their_o mediator_n it_o will_v not_o consist_v with_o what_o he_o have_v say_v there_o be_v one_o mediator_n which_o prove_v the_o former_a consequence_n that_o the_o mediation_n they_o give_v to_o saint_n will_v not_o stand_v with_o that_o one_o mediator_n his_o other_o instance_n be_v from_o st._n john_n we_o have_v a_o advocate_n 1_o ep._n c._n 2._o from_o which_o he_o infer_v the_o apostle_n can_v not_o make_v himself_o a_o mediator_n and_o so_o make_v it_o conclude_v against_o parmenian_a who_o place_v the_o bishop_n a_o mediator_n between_o god_n and_o the_o people_n we_o shall_v examine_v the_o cardinal_n answer_n by_o which_o he_o will_v shift_v this_o off_o when_o we_o come_v to_o trial_n of_o antiquity_n but_o this_o author_n misreport_v st._n aug._n when_o he_o say_v pa_n 63._o the_o text_n admit_v only_o one_o mediator_n and_o advocate_n of_o redemption_n and_o salvation_n but_o more_o than_o one_o of_o pray_v to_o almighty_a god_n with_o we_o and_o for_o we_o by_o way_n of_o charity_n and_o society_n as_o st._n aug._n say_v cite_v contra_fw-la faust_n l._n 22.21_o i_o suppose_v it_o shall_v be_v l._n 20._o for_o in_o the_o place_n cite_v he_o speak_v of_o no_o such_o matter_n but_o in_o the_o l._n 20.21_o where_o st._n aug._n speak_v of_o our_o honour_v they_o by_o way_n of_o charity_n and_o society_n as_o we_o honour_v holy_a man_n live_v which_o this_o author_n misreport_v as_o if_o say_v they_o pray_v for_o we_o which_o be_v truth_n but_o his_o add_v with_o we_o suppose_v they_o pray_v for_o we_o when_o we_o pray_v upon_o knowledge_n of_o our_o particular_a necessity_n and_o request_n which_o be_v false_a he_o close_v up_o this_o point_n with_o the_o proof_n of_o pretend_a scripture_n scripture-proof_n their_o invocation_n destitute_a of_o scripture-proof_n if_o any_o desire_n to_o have_v the_o invocation_n of_o saint_n and_o angel_n prove_v by_o scripture_n he_o may_v please_v to_o examine_v job_n 5.1_o gen._n 48.16_o 1_o sam._n c._n 28._o pitiful_a proof_n in_o the_o first_o eliphaz_n tell_v job_n if_o he_o take_v it_o thus_o impatient_o he_o can_v expect_v relief_n or_o comfort_n from_o god_n or_o angel_n who_o ministry_n in_o those_o day_n be_v frequent_a in_o the_o second_o place_n jacob_n pray_v to_o god_n for_o his_o blessing_n upon_o the_o lad_n and_o wish_v the_o ministry_n of_o angel_n for_o they_o as_o it_o have_v please_v god_n to_o use_v it_o in_o blessing_n and_o deliver_v he_o in_o all_o his_o trouble_n or_o we_o may_v say_v as_o athanasius_n and_o other_o father_n do_v that_o the_o angel_n there_o be_v christ_n in_o the_o three_o he_o produce_v saul_n worship_v and_o invoke_v samuel_n which_o many_o way_n fail_v of_o prove_v invocation_n of_o saint_n both_o in_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o thing_n and_o the_o consequence_n proof_n these_o fit_v for_o such_o article_n of_o faith_n chap._n iii_o of_o image_n the_o council_n of_o trent_n as_o we_o see_v by_o the_o decree_n touch_v image_n people_n pretend_a care_n for_o the_o people_n will_v seem_v very_o careful_a that_o the_o people_n be_v teach_v how_o they_o may_v safe_o conceive_v of_o and_o worship_v image_n and_o that_o all_o superstition_n and_o filthy_a lucre_n be_v
understanding_n power_n divinity_n as_o he_o express_v it_o for_o if_o by_o this_o importance_n of_o the_o word_n serve_v the_o romanist_n think_v to_o secure_v their_o worship_v of_o image_n because_o they_o do_v not_o give_v divine_a worship_n or_o homage_n to_o they_o nor_o esteem_v they_o endow_v with_o understanding_n power_n and_o divinity_n then_o i_o say_v those_o more_o understand_a heathen_n may_v be_v excuse_v from_o serve_v of_o image_n because_o they_o do_v not_o give_v divine_a honour_n to_o they_o or_o esteem_v they_o so_o endue_v with_o etc._n etc._n and_o yet_o their_o worship_v be_v a_o serve_v of_o they_o so_o we_o see_v there_o be_v no_o need_n of_o such_o a_o outcry_n as_o he_o make_v against_o our_o translation_n say_v worship_n where_o it_o shall_v have_v say_v serve_v we_o have_v no_o advantage_n by_o the_o one_o nor_o have_v he_o by_o the_o other_o beside_o this_o of_o worship_n for_o serve_v he_o busi_v himself_o to_o find_v three_o other_o mistake_v in_o our_o translate_n that_o one_o verse_n of_o the_o commandment_n translation_n other_o needless_a exception_n against_o our_o translation_n which_o in_o his_o zeal_n to_o image-worship_n he_o brand_v with_o the_o note_n of_o fraud_n and_o double_a deal_n the_o one_o in_o translate_n pesel_n a_o grave_a image_n which_o shall_v be_v idol_n as_o he_o will_v make_v we_o believe_v and_o all_o because_o the_o septuagint_n have_v it_o in_o this_o place_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d &_o the_o latin_a idolum_fw-la so_o he_o will_v have_v we_o contrary_a to_o the_o hebrew_n greek_a &_o latin_a text_n so_o he_o p._n 91._o but_o what_o if_o here_o the_o septuagint_n render_v it_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o the_o parallel_n place_n levit._n 26.1_o it_o render_v the_o same_o hebrew_n word_n pesel_n by_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o the_o latin_a sculptile_n and_o who_o can_v deny_v that_o this_o signify_v a_o grave_a image_n and_o if_o their_o latin_a sculptile_n be_v not_o contrary_a to_o the_o hebrew_n than_o we_o be_v safe_a enough_o his_o second_o exception_n be_v that_o we_o translate_v it_o any_o grave_a image_n but_o his_o logic_n may_v teach_v he_o that_o the_o force_n of_o indefinites_n amount_n to_o a_o universality_n that_o to_o say_v there_o be_v not_o a_o man_n in_o the_o church_n be_v as_o much_o as_o to_o say_v there_o be_v not_o any_o man_n in_o the_o church_n so_o thou_o shall_v not_o make_v to_o thyself_o a_o grave_a image_n and_o thou_o shall_v not_o make_v to_o thyself_o any_o grave_a image_n where_o be_v the_o difference_n beside_o he_o acknowledge_v that_o in_o our_o new_a translation_n the_o word_n any_o be_v put_v in_o a_o different_a character_n his_o three_o exception_n be_v not_o much_o unlike_o the_o former_a to_o make_v the_o text_n say_v he_o sound_v yet_o more_o against_o we_o in_o the_o ear_n of_o the_o vulgar_a they_o make_v it_o say_v nor_o the_o likeness_n of_o any_o thing_n that_o be_v in_o heaven_n when_o as_o it_o shall_v be_v nor_o any_o likeness_n which_o be_v in_o heaven_n pa._n 92._o but_o what_o english_a man_n will_v make_v any_o difference_n in_o these_o more_o than_o that_o the_o first_o be_v the_o round_a expression_n and_o the_o zeal_n mr._n spencer_n have_v for_o the_o image_n of_o saint_n which_o be_v in_o heaven_n make_v he_o so_o suspicious_a if_o not_o uncharitable_a in_o judge_v we_o have_v a_o design_n in_o the_o translation_n to_o make_v the_o unlearued_fw-mi think_v that_o the_o likeness_n of_o all_o thing_n in_o heaven_n and_o consequent_o of_o our_o saviour_n and_o of_o the_o saint_n be_v here_o forbid_a so_o he_o pa._n 93._o but_o the_o word_n any_o thing_n be_v here_o also_o put_v in_o a_o differ_a character_n to_o show_v they_o be_v add_v for_o the_o round_a english_a expression_n and_o as_o for_o the_o religious_a or_o romish_a worship_v of_o the_o likeness_n or_o image_n of_o our_o saviour_n and_o saint_n we_o conclude_v it_o forbid_v not_o by_o any_o consequence_n of_o a_o advantageous_a translation_n but_o by_o the_o force_n and_o intent_n of_o the_o commandment_n beside_o deut._n 4.16_o will_v bear_v print_v it_o out_o so_o in_o the_o catechism_n for_o there_o be_v col._n after_o temounah_n the_o likeness_n of_o any_o after_o this_o in_o his_o zeal_n to_o image-worship_n he_o spend_v 11._o 11._o of_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d rom._n 11._o page_n in_o note_v place_n of_o our_o translation_n where_o the_o word_n image_n as_o he_o pretend_v be_v undue_o and_o fraudulent_o put_v in_o but_o because_o most_o of_o they_o be_v so_o in_o the_o old_a translation_n and_o be_v correct_v in_o the_o new_a i_o will_v only_o note_v two_o where_o the_o word_n stand_v still_o in_o our_o present_a translation_n the_o one_o be_v ro._n 11.4_o to_o the_o image_n of_o baal_n but_o how_o can_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v better_a render_v whether_o we_o supply_v it_o with_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d as_o erasmus_n do_v which_o signify_v image_n or_o with_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d which_o signify_v statue_n and_o may_v well_o be_v understand_v it_o be_v the_o word_n which_o the_o septuagint_n use_v in_o that_o history_n of_o baal_n 1_o king_n 10.27_o the_o lat._n the_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d statuam_fw-la baal_n sic_fw-la vul._n lat._n image_n or_o statue_n of_o baal_n mr._n spencer_n for_o fear_v the_o word_n image_n shall_v be_v here_o supply_v will_v make_v it_o refer_v to_o a_o female_a deity_n but_o let_v he_o show_v that_o any_o female_a deity_n come_v under_o the_o name_n of_o baal_n or_o baalim_fw-la he_o acknowledge_v that_o in_o 1_o king_n 19.18_o to_o which_o this_o place_n of_o the_o roman_n relate_v it_o be_v that_o bow_v not_o the_o knee_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d therefore_o no_o female_a idol_n be_v here_o mean_v but_o because_o the_o false_o suppose_a deity_n be_v acknowledge_v and_o worship_v by_o bow_v the_o knee_n to_o his_o image_n s._n paul_n more_o express_o and_o elegant_o put_v it_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d the_o other_o be_v act._n 19.35_o where_o he_o quarrel_v at_o our_o translation_n for_o add_v the_o word_n image_n in_o render_v the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d which_o signify_v that_o which_o fall_v from_o jupiter_n but_o see_v that_o which_o be_v suppose_v to_o fall_v be_v a_o statue_n or_o image_n what_o harm_n be_v there_o or_o fraud_n in_o add_v the_o word_n image_n and_o render_v it_o more_o clear_o the_o image_n that_o fall_v and_o what_o need_v this_o tenderness_n in_o mr._n spencer_n for_o the_o word_n image_n if_o he_o will_v not_o show_v himself_o zealous_a for_o that_o against_o which_o god_n almighty_a have_v in_o this_o commandment_n declare_v himself_o a_o jealous_a god_n but_o its_o time_n from_o word_n to_o return_v again_o to_o the_o consideration_n of_o the_o thing_n worship_v of_o image_n which_o he_o begin_v to_o do_v pa._n 107._o where_o he_o undertake_v to_o show_v that_o the_o very_a translation_n of_o the_o protestant_n prove_v nothing_o against_o the_o use_n of_o image_n image_n of_o graven_n image_n practise_v in_o the_o romish_a church_n certain_o much_o may_v be_v prove_v against_o what_o be_v practise_v there_o but_o here_o we_o be_v to_o consider_v the_o doctrine_n see_v then_o how_o he_o make_v good_a what_o he_o say_v he_o suppose_v the_o protestant_n must_v take_v grave_v image_n either_o in_o his_o sense_n above_o for_o a_o idol_n and_o false_a god_n or_o in_o the_o sense_n he_o put_v upon_o the_o word_n image_n i.e._n for_o a_o true_a representation_n of_o some_o holy_a person_n the_o church_n of_o rome_n detest_v grave_v image_n in_o the_o first_o sense_n and_o in_o the_o other_o sense_n a_o grave_v image_n be_v not_o forbid_v thus_o he_o but_o he_o shall_v consider_v that_o protestant_n can_v tell_v he_o of_o graven_n image_n which_o may_v and_o have_v be_v make_v to_o worship_n by_o they_o not_o a_o false_a god_n but_o the_o true_a and_o so_o forbid_v in_o the_o commandment_n such_o be_v those_o we_o speak_v of_o above_o laban_n image_n mica_n the_o golden_a calf_n and_o note_v that_o those_o image_n which_o be_v steal_v from_o laban_n be_v call_v strange_a god_n gen._n 35.2_o not_o that_o the_o false_a heathen_a god_n be_v worship_v in_o they_o by_o laban_n or_o any_o of_o jacob_n family_n but_o because_o they_o use_v these_o in_o the_o worship_n of_o the_o true_a god_n which_o be_v to_o worship_n god_n after_o a_o strange_a manner_n as_o the_o heathen_n worship_v their_o god_n again_o the_o protestant_n can_v tell_v he_o of_o graven_n image_n which_o represent_v neither_o the_o true_a nor_o false_a god_n yet_o fall_v under_o the_o prohibition_n by_o undue_a worship_n give_v unto_o they_o and_o such_o be_v the_o brazen_a serpent_n and_o so_o their_o image_n
what_o may_v be_v bring_v for_o or_o against_o this_o invocation_n of_o saint_n and_o angel_n allow_v in_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v forsake_v of_o scripture_n they_o fly_v to_o some_o say_n of_o the_o father_n that_o seem_v to_o allow_v and_o commend_v the_o practice_n then_o set_v on_o foot_n by_o some_o in_o the_o four_o century_n high_a they_o can_v go_v for_o the_o rise_n of_o it_o and_o so_o fall_v short_a of_o the_o second_o ground_n of_o catholic_n doctrine_n require_v it_o be_v deliver_v down_o from_o the_o apostle_n time_n hold_v and_o believe_v in_o all_o age_n as_o vincentius_n his_o rule_n also_o tell_v we_o for_o clear_v of_o this_o we_o will_v lay_v down_o some_o general_n which_o will_v evince_v this_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n though_o ancient_a yet_o indeed_o new_a and_o not_o catholic_n and_o so_o may_v render_v what_o they_o bring_v weak_a and_o impertinent_a to_o prove_v the_o contrary_n first_o it_o be_v the_o opinion_n of_o very_a many_o of_o the_o ancient_n invocation_n the_o opinion_n of_o some_o of_o the_o ancient_n touch_v the_o state_n of_o the_o dead_a inconsistent_a with_o invocation_n that_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o faithful_a be_v not_o admit_v into_o heaven_n or_o to_o the_o sight_n of_o god_n till_o the_o resurrection_n be_v still_o in_o the_o like_a condition_n as_o the_o romanist_n suppose_v the_o father_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n to_o be_v in_o and_o therefore_o not_o in_o a_o condition_n to_o be_v invocate_v or_o pray_v to_o but_o be_v pray_v for_o that_o god_n will_v give_v they_o refrigerium_fw-la they_o lucem_fw-la &_o refrigerium_fw-la light_n and_o refreshment_n as_o we_o find_v in_o ancient_a form_n of_o prayer_n for_o the_o dead_a senensis_n and_o other_o romish_a writer_n acknowledge_v this_o to_o be_v the_o opinion_n of_o many_o ancient_a father_n and_o therefore_o invocation_n of_o saint_n can_v not_o then_o be_v catholic_n belief_n or_o doctrine_n the_o 3._o the_o bell._n de_fw-fr beat._n sanctor_n c._n 1_o 2_o 3._o cardinal_n well_o see_v how_o this_o be_v inconsistent_a with_o the_o ground_n of_o invocation_n and_o therefore_o seek_v to_o make_v the_o contrary_a appear_v viz._n that_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o faithful_a do_v see_v god_n but_o though_o many_o father_n may_v be_v bring_v to_o the_o contrary_a especial_o after_o the_o many_o miracle_n do_v at_o the_o tomb_n of_o martyr_n in_o the_o four_o age_n yet_o the_o general_a opinion_n of_o the_o more_o ancient_a father_n be_v as_o i_o say_v it_o plain_o show_v that_o invocation_n of_o saint_n can_v not_o be_v their_o belief_n or_o practice_n bellarmine_n seem_v to_o be_v trouble_v in_o shift_v off_o two_o testimony_n especial_o the_o one_o of_o john_n the_o 22._o who_o though_o of_o late_a time_n yet_o a_o pope_n and_o so_o more_o cross_a to_o their_o pretend_a ancient_a belief_n of_o invocation_n which_o sentence_n of_o the_o pope_n 2._o pope_n bell._n de_fw-fr beat._n sanct._n c._n 2._o he_o seek_v to_o elevate_v it_o as_o if_o the_o pope_n hold_v it_o doubtful_o and_o recall_v it_o but_o elsewhere_o the_o esset_fw-la the_o bel._n de_fw-fr pontifice_fw-la romano_n l._n 4._o c._n 14._o cum_fw-la liberum_fw-la esset_fw-la cardinal_n answer_v roundly_o to_o it_o that_o pope_n john_n think_v so_o when_o it_o be_v free_a to_o think_v so_o the_o church_n have_v determine_v nothing_o therein_o but_o if_o invocation_n of_o saint_n depart_v have_v be_v a_o define_v and_o determine_v doctrine_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n then_o will_v it_o not_o have_v be_v free_a for_o any_o to_o hold_v they_o in_o a_o place_n where_o they_o can_v not_o be_v invocate_v the_o other_o testimony_n be_v of_o irenaeus_n servevit_fw-la iren._n l._n 5._o c._n 31._o legem_fw-la mortuorum_fw-la servevit_fw-la one_o of_o the_o most_o ancient_a father_n most_o plain_o assert_v the_o former_a opinion_n and_o give_v reason_n for_o it_o from_o our_o saviour_n example_n who_o do_v say_v he_o observe_v the_o law_n of_o the_o dead_a that_o he_o may_v be_v the_o first_o bear_v from_o the_o dead_a and_o what_o law_n be_v that_o beati_fw-la manifestum_fw-la est_fw-la quia_fw-la &_o discipulorum_fw-la animae_fw-la bell._n l._n de_fw-fr beatit_fw-fr sanctorum_fw-la c._n 4._o sect_n tertio_fw-la erat_fw-la animâ_fw-la beatus_fw-la animâ_fw-la sunt_fw-la in_o paradiso_fw-la beati_fw-la that_o his_o soul_n shall_v stay_v in_o the_o low_a part_n unto_o his_o resurrection_n or_o in_o a_o invisible_a place_n as_o he_o call_v it_o in_o that_o chapter_n it_o be_v manifest_a therefore_o that_o the_o soul_n of_o his_o disciple_n must_v stay_v in_o the_o invisible_a place_n till_o the_o resurrection_n and_o then_o add_v for_o no_o disciple_n be_v above_o his_o master_n of_o all_o that_o the_o cardinal_n say_v this_o only_a carry_v a_o show_n of_o answer_n that_o christ_n before_o his_o resurrection_n be_v beatify_v in_o soul_n so_o be_v he_o before_o his_o death_n by_o reason_n of_o the_o hypostatical_a union_n in_o like_a manner_n the_o saint_n while_o they_o rest_v as_o to_o their_o body_n in_o the_o sepulchre_n be_v bless_v in_o soul_n and_o in_o paradise_n that_o they_o be_v in_o a_o bless_a condition_n though_o out_o of_o heaven_n or_o the_o beatifical_a vision_n of_o god_n be_v not_o doubt_v but_o that_o paradise_n which_o bell._n in_o reference_n to_o luc._n 23.43_o place_n they_o in_o do_v not_o reach_v the_o high_a heaven_n or_o sight_n of_o god_n and_o so_o he_o say_v nothing_o as_o to_o their_o capacity_n of_o be_v invocate_v so_o also_o what_o he_o say_v gloriosam_fw-la say_v bell._n l._n 1._o de_fw-fr beat._n sanctor_n c._n 6._o fuisse_fw-la tamen_fw-la in_fw-la fara_fw-mi diso_fw-it coelesti_fw-la formaliter_fw-la i._n e._n fuisse_fw-la beatam_fw-la &_o gloriosam_fw-la afterward_o that_o christ_n soul_n though_o it_o do_v not_o ascend_v into_o that_o corporeal_a heaven_n before_o his_o resurrection_n yet_o be_v it_o in_o the_o celestial_a paradise_n formal_o i._n e._n it_o be_v bless_v and_o glorious_a which_o if_o our_o adversary_n will_v yield_v unto_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o saint_n we_o will_v not_o be_v much_o solicitous_a for_o that_o corporeal_a heaven_n we_o can_v yield_v nor_o you_o neither_o that_o the_o soul_n of_o saint_n if_o not_o in_o the_o high_a heaven_n and_o that_o sight_n of_o god_n can_v be_v glorify_v and_o beatify_v as_o the_o soul_n of_o our_o saviour_n be_v only_o that_o they_o be_v bless_v in_o soul_n though_o out_o of_o that_o heaven_n we_o yield_v but_o that_o will_v do_v the_o romanist_n no_o good_a as_o to_o invocation_n and_o if_o our_o saviour_n soul_n be_v formal_o in_o paradise_n before_o his_o resurrection_n because_o it_o be_v gloriosa_fw-la &_o beata_fw-la glorious_a and_o beatify_v then_o be_v it_o so_o in_o paradise_n before_o his_o death_n while_o he_o converse_v on_o earth_n or_o be_v on_o the_o cross_n for_o his_o soul_n by_o reason_n of_o the_o hypostatical_a union_n be_v always_o in_o the_o vision_n of_o god_n and_o beatify_v and_o so_o the_o cardinal_n still_o say_v nothing_o to_o the_o purpose_n but_o this_o be_v enough_o to_o our_o purpose_n that_o many_o of_o the_o ancient_n deny_v the_o saint_n depart_v to_o have_v sight_n of_o god_n till_o the_o resurrection_n or_o speak_v doubtful_o of_o their_o place_n and_o condition_n which_o plain_o evince_v that_o invocation_n can_v not_o be_v a_o point_n then_o of_o belief_n or_o catholic_n doctrine_n our_o second_o general_n be_v century_n this_o practice_n of_o invocation_n take_v begin_v but_o in_o the_o 4._o century_n that_o this_o doctrine_n or_o practice_n can_v be_v make_v to_o appear_v before_o the_o four_o century_n and_o therefore_o also_o not_o catholic_n this_o be_v prove_v first_o because_o the_o defender_n of_o it_o can_v bring_v no_o testimony_n for_o it_o beyond_o that_o age._n that_o which_o coccius_n cite_v out_o of_o origen_n upon_o job_n and_o the_o lamentation_n be_v indeed_o not_o out_o of_o origen_n for_o neither_o of_o those_o comment_n be_v he_o and_o what_o the_o 16._o the_o bell._n de_fw-fr beat_v sanctor_n l._n 1._o c._n 16._o cardinal_n make_v his_o first_o testimony_n out_o of_o dionysius_n his_o hierarchy_n fail_v two_o way_n for_o that_o writing_n be_v of_o a_o much_o late_a date_n and_o the_o place_n cite_v concern_v the_o prayer_n of_o the_o live_n for_o the_o dead_a not_o to_o the_o dead_a as_o appear_v by_o the_o purpose_n of_o the_o whole_a chapter_n from_o whence_o the_o word_n be_v take_v the_o cardinal_n second_o testimony_n be_v from_o irenaeus_n a_o ancient_a father_n indeed_o but_o what_o say_v he_o for_o invocation_n he_o call_v the_o bless_a virgin_n evae_n advocatum_fw-la the_o advocate_n of_o eve_n and_o bell._n cry_v quid_fw-la clarius_fw-la what_o more_o clear_a if_o this_o imply_v any_o intercession_n yet_o can_v it_o not_o prove_v invocation_n for_o how_o can_v eve_n invocate_v the_o bless_a virgin_n but_o this_o be_v a_o strong_a and_o high_a