of Gods seruants OF INTERCESSION OF SAINTS OVR CONSENT M. PERKINS Page 258. OVr consent I will set downe in two conclusions The first conclusion The Saints departed pray to God by giuing thankes to him for their owne redemption and for the redemption of the whole Church of God vpon earth The second conclusion The Saints departed pray generally for the state of the whole Church THE DISSENT THey hold that the Saints in heauen doe make intercession for particular men and that hauing receiued particular mens prayers they present them vnto God but this doctrine doe we flatly renounce vpon these groundes and reasons Esay 63. vers 16. The Church saith to God doubtlesse thou art our Father though Abraham be ignorant of vs and Israel knowe vs not Nowe if Abraham knewe not his posterity neither Mary nor Peter nor any Saint departed knowe vs and our estate and consequently they cannot make particular intercession for vs. To this vve answere two wayes first vvith S. Hierome vpon the same place that to knowe one is taken there for to like and approue him and his doings Psal 1. as it is very often in holy Scripture Our Lord knoweth the way of the just Item Christ vvill answere to them that were workers of iniquity Math. 7. vers 25. I knowe yee not as also to the foolish Virgins I knowe yee not that is I like you not euen so Abraham and Iacob could not then knowe that is approue the doing of those their wicked and degenerate children Secondly vve answere that Abraham and the holy Patriarkes vvere vntill Christ had by his passion paide their ransome not yet in the possession of heauenly joyes but detayned in a place of rest by the learned commonly called Lymbus Patrum To this second answere M. PER. replyeth If they say that Abraham was in Lymbo which they will haue to be a part of hell what joy could Lazarus haue in Abrahams bosome and with what comfort could Iacob say on his death bedde O Lord I haue wayted for thy saluation We rejoyne that albeit Lymbo be thought to be vnder the earth yet is it as farre remote from hell as the depth of the earth will giue it leaue for the place of Purgatory is betweene hell and it Further that in Lymbo there was no payne but a quiet expectation of their deliuerance from thence and translation into heauen vvhich brought them great joy besides the good company of many millions of holy soules that there attended the same happy houre of their deliuerance of all vvhich Lazarus vvas partaker being carryed into Abrahams bosome I vvill here omit that M. PER. in this very question maketh this matter of Lazarus but a parable and thereby not fit to confirme any point of doctrine in his owne judgement To the second place I say that Iacob might haue great comfort to thinke vpon his saluation vvhich should be accomplished in Christs time for Abraham who was father of them Ioh. 8. vers 56. 2. Reg. 22. vers 20. rejoyced to see Christs dayes which he sawe and was glad as our Sauiour himselfe testifieth The second reason Huldah the Prophetesse telleth Iosias that he must be gathered to his fathers and put in his graue in peace that his eyes might not see all the euill which God would bring on that place Therefore the Saints departed see not the state of the Church on earth this conclusion Augustine confirmeth at large To this vve answere first that the Prophetesse when shee saith he should not see the euill of that place meaneth no more then that he should be after his death in such a place of rest and contentment that it should not grieue and vexe him to see the just punishment of his owne Country Secondly it may be said of Iosias who dyed long before Christ as it is of Abraham that he vvas to remayne in Lymbo vvhen that euill should happen and so should not see it But Augustine saith he doth confirme this conclusion at large VVhy did not the honest man quote the place of S. Augustine as he is wont to doe was it because it would leade vs directly to the discouery of his deceit S. Augustine indeede doth very copiously handle the question what knowledge soules departed haue De cura pro mort ca. 15. 16. and resolueth that soules departed of their owne naturall knowledge doe not vnderstand what is done by their friendes here but that either by the report of other soules that come to them or of Angels that goe betweene or else by the reuelation of the spirit of God in whose presence Saints departed doe continually stand they may very well knowe that which is here done and thus much of S. Augustine in this place afterward you shall heare more of him concerning his opinion of the knowledge that Saints haue of our affaires The third reason of M. PERKINS No Creature Saint or Angell can be a Mediatour for vs to God sauing Christ alone for in a true Mediatour there must be three thinges First that the word of God must reueale and propound him vnto the Church Surely I should thinke that he must first be a perfect Mediatour before he be propounded for such a one Secondly a Mediatour must be perfectly just so as no sinne be found in him at all Such be all Saints in heauen Thirdly a Mediatour must be a propitiator that is he must bring to God some thing that may appease and satisfie his wrath for our sinnes so did Moyses vvhen he appeased Gods wrath justly kindled against the sinnes of the Israelites in the wildernesse thus might a man quickly answere M. PER. argument of his Mediatour But to explicate this matter more clearely and particularly I say that a Mediatour may be taken two waies First he may be called a Mediatour that doth in any sort imploy himself betweene two parties to agree them vvhether it be by perswasion or intreaty vvhether by letter or word of mouth and so is it commonly taken and that according vnto the proper signification of the word Secondly a Mediatour may be taken in an other sence not for euery one that vseth meanes of attonement but for him only that to make the agreement betweene the parties is content to pay the debt himselfe and to satisfie for al other damages and detrimentes and in this sence doth S. Paul say 1. Tim. 2. vers 5. That we haue one Mediatour the man IESVS Christ who gaue himselfe a redemption for all Note the latter vvordes and you shall see this my distinction of Mediatour to be gathered out of the Apostles owne wordes For saith he we haue one Mediatour that gaue himselfe a redemption for all that is that tooke the debts of all our sinnes vpon his owne shoulders and satisfied fully for all see here expressed the second kinde of Mediatour Nowe in the beginning of the Chapter he desireth that intercessions and prayers be made of the Christians for all men
we will demand at his handes We call vpon Christ for saluation and therefore must we first beleeue him to be a Sauiour we call vpon Saints to pray for vs therefore must vve before hand beleeue that they both can and will pray for vs and that they are able through the fauour and loue that God beareth them to entreate much at Gods handes see howe vve must beleeue in them vpon whom we call for helpe And the very phrase of beleeuing in Saints is vsed by the same a Ad Philemon v. 5. Apostle not vnlike that of the old Testament b Exod. 14 vers 31. The people beleeued God and his seruant Moyses M. PERKINS goeth on patching vp his former argument with that which hath small coherence with it to wit That we haue no promise to be heard but for Christs sake Admit it vvere so it maketh nothing against prayer to Saints for they pray for vs in Christs name and are heard for Christs sake Finally M. PERKINS fableth that we giue for our only warrant of inuocation of Saints miracles and reuelations and thereunto answereth that to judge of any point of doctrine by miracles three thinges must concurre First the doctrine of faith and piety to be confirmed Secondly prayer to God that some thing may be done for the ratifying of the said doctrine Thirdly the manifest edification of the Church by the two former What of all this good Sir Marry thinke what you vvill for he inferreth nothing I will therefore apply all this to the purpose and say first That vvhen a miracle is graunted by God to confirme any point of doctrine in controuersie then euery man is as vvell bound to beleeue that point of doctrine as if it were plainely recorded in the holy Scripture for it hath God to witnesse who cannot deceiue Secondly that S. Bernard a most Godly man and one whose testimony M. PER. doth very often alleage did fulfill all those three worthy obseruations of M. PER. in working of miracles to confirme inuocation of Saints and therefore it is to be beleeued of all men euen by M. PERKINS owne sentence For first he propounded inuocation of Saints Lib. 3. vitae cap. 5. as a doctrine of faith and great piety in the Prouince of Tolouse in France where it was by our Protestants Grandsiers the Albigenses denyed Secondly he blessed some certaine loafes of bread that were presented to him and prayed to God that if inuocation to Saints were pure doctrine of faith that then whosoeuer should taste of that bread might be cured of what disease soeuer he was sicke A Bishop that stoode by added yea Sir if they receiue them with good faith they shall be healed S. Bernard replyed I said not so but whosoeuer shall truly taste of them shall be cured that they may knowe vs to haue the truth and to be the true messengers of God And as it there followeth An huge multitude of sicke and diseased persons tasting of that bread recouered perfect health If we had no other argument then this it alone were sufficient to perswade any Christian that to pray vnto Saints is the true doctrine of Christ which God so expresly would confirme by miracles and testifie so euidently What would he beleeue that will not beleeue this But saith M. PER. miracles be to be done for Infidels and not for them who beleeue True it is and therefore was this miracle done to conuert or to confound such Infidels as our Protestants are vvho will not beleeue the inuocation of Saints Lastly saith he our faith is not to be confirmed by reuelations Luc. 16. vers 29. and apparitions of dead men but by the writings of the Apostles and Prophets What is this either to miracles or inuocation of Saints neither is that which he saith to be drawne out of those wordes of that parable as I will proue when it shall be neede Note by the way that twice in this question he himselfe citeth that parable of Diues and Lazarus for proofe of doctrine vvhich he afterward denyeth to be lawfull for vs to doe What our other groundes be for inuocation of Saints shall be declared in our arguments following M. PERKINS fift reason To pray to Saints departed to bowe the knee to them while they are in heauen is to asscribe vnto them that which is proper to God namely to knowe the hart and inward desires thereof and to knowe the speeches and behauiours of all men in all places on the earth at all times Answere This man doth too too broadly enlarge his lies for neither doe all men at once much lesse at all times pray vnto euery or any one of the Saints but suppose they did yet to heare all their prayers togither is nothing so much as to see that which euery Saint doth see in heauen to wit the one only substance of God in three persons for what are all the cogitations of men compared vnto the immense and incomprehensible nature of God not so much as the point of a pinne to the whole globe of the earth and yet euery Saint in heauen doth clearely behold God therefore much more able are they to heare and see all thinges that belong vnto men And as the learned Diuines knowe the man-hood of our Sauiour Christ doth see knowe and comprehend all the deedes wordes and thoughts of all men that haue liued since the beginning of the world vnto the end because it belongeth vnto him who is judge of all to knowe all aswell to reward the good as to punish the euill and yet doth no Diuine say that the man-hood of Christ is God or equall vnto God in knowledge Nowe the Saints in heauen doe not see the secretes of our harts in our harts but being present to the face of God doe behold in it as it were in a most cleare glasse all that is pleaseth the goodnesse of God to reueale vnto them and it is incident and belonging necessarily vnto their most happy estate to haue graunted to them all that in reason they can demande otherwise they were not so happy as they might be Now what good nature would not be glad to pleasure his owne fellowe members and deare friendes specially such as craue so much at his handes vvherefore it cannot be denyed of any considerate man but that God who satisfieth al their just requests doth ordinarily reueale vnto his dearely beloued Saints all the prayers that be made vnto them Surely S. Augustine in most expresse tearmes declareth De cura pro mort cap. 15. 16. That God can giue such power vnto his Saints and Martirs that they may be present in spirit at euery place throughout the world where there is any memory of them or prayer made vnto them He will not take vpon him to define whether they be actually there present or no or whether by the ministery of Angels they be relieued that seeke helpe by the intercession of Martirs but maketh no
good deedes we doe so that the Protestants can finde no starting hole to escape out at for that they both heare our prayers and be willing to pray for vs. And hauing wonne the Protestants to beginne our Lytanies with vs Luc. 20. vers 36. and so to say S. Michael pray for vs all holy Angels pray for vs c. We may no doubt perswade them to goe forward thus the Saints in heauen are equall vnto Angels both in charity knowledge affection towardes vs and what else soeuer is requisite vnto intercession therefore if we may pray vnto Angels we may also pray vnto the Saints M. PERKINS answereth that at the generall resurrection Saints shall be equall vnto Angels as our Sauiour saith but not before Reply If Saints then shall be equall to Angels they are so at their first entrance into possession of the heauenly joyes for as all Diuines confesse the essentiall glory of their soule shal not be encreased at the resurrection and the glory of their body which they shall then receiue doth not make them more like but rather more vnlike vnto Angels that haue no bodies at all therefore this answere is insufficient which M. PERKINS foreseing addeth a second Saints be equall to Angels in glory but not in office and ministery by which they are ministring spirits for good men leauing vs to vnderstand belike for the good man doth not expresse it that because the Angels are ministring spirits therefore they better knowe our prayers and are more carefull to pray for vs. Reply First the Saints being of our owne nature and hauing passed the like perils that we be in and being also members of the same body of Christ as vve are cannot but tender the matter of our saluation as much as Angels doe especially considering that their charity towardes God bindeth them to further by all possible meanes his honour and seruice and their loue towardes their neighbours doth moue them sufficiently to second and helpe forward our saluation in what they can But the other point of their knowledge of our affaires is of greater difficulty the which vve proue first by the perfect knowledge they haue of God which is as great and also greater then some Angels haue and so in that cleare mirrour of Gods substance they may most easily see all that hath beene is or shall be said or done vpon earth And we say further that the perfection of their most happy state doth demand as due to it that they should be made priuy vnto their friendes reasonable suites vnto them All vvhich hath beene already proued But here I will adde this which is to the prâ—sent purpose That the Saints haue also charge ouer vs and therefore that it belongeth vnto their office as well as to the office of Angels to be acquainted with our affaires in particular That God hath appointed the Saints to rule ouer vs is proued out of our Sauiours wordes vvhere he saith Luc. 19. vers 17. That the good seruant for well vsing of his pound shall be placed ouer tenne Cyties And againe * Apoc. 2. vers 26. He that shall ouercome and keepe my wordes vntill the end I will giue him power ouer Nations and he shall rule them with a rodde of yron c. euen as I haue receiued of my father Item a Ibid. 3. vers 21. I will giue him to sit with me in my throne Out of which textes is plainely gathered that Christ giueth vnto holy Martirs and Saints a charge and command ouer Cyties Countries and Nations which the auncient Fathers haue well obserued and doe plainely testifie Lib. 8. in Lucam De viduis In 40. Mart. Whereupon S. Ambrose saith Euen as Angels doe gouerne ouer vs so doe they who haue attayned vnto the life of Angels In another place he calleth the Saints departed salutis nostrae Praesides the Presidents of our saluation S. Basil tearmeth them Protectors of mankinde Gregory Nazianzene desireth S. Cyprian to looke downe vpon him and to direct his speech and life b Orat. in Cyprian and to feede his flocke to gouerne them togither with him Theodorete saith that they at his time that went from home Lib. 8. de curandis prayed the Martirs to be their companions or rather the guides of their journey and returning safe did yeeld them thankes acknowledging the benefit by them Many more such like testimonies may be produced out of the auncient learned Fathers if neede require to shewe manifestly howe they vnderstood the Scriptures concerning this office and ministery or rather presidency of the Saints departed ouer vs that liue on the earth vvherefore to conclude this reason the Saints being equall vnto the Angels aswell in office and ministery as in charity and affection towardes vs we may aswel pray vnto them as vnto the Angels Our third reason shall be to preuent that euasion of theirs their God forsooth is so ready of himselfe to heare vs that we need not any spokesman to him thus I propose it One of vs liuing here may pray vnto another to pray to God for him therefore much rather may vve pray vnto the Saints departed to pray for vs because the better that the men be that pray for vs the more vvorth are their prayers according to that of S. Iames The continual praier of a just man auaileth much Iac. cap. 5 vers 17. And the examples of Abraham Moyses Iob Elias and such like excellent men doe confirme the same vvhose prayers God did heare when he refused to heare others Yea Gen. 20. vers 7. Iob 42. vers 8. God himselfe as the Scripture teacheth aduised Abimilech King of Egipt to speake vnto Abraham to pray for him and would not heare Iobs friendes praying for themselues but sent them to his seruant Iob to request him to pray for them at whose intercession he did pardon them Doth not this most plainely proue that notwithstanding Gods readinesse to receiue vs into his grace yet his will and pleasure is that vve doe pray vnto others to be a meanes vnto him for vs especially vvhen we haue so offended him that vve may justly be ashamed euen to present our selues before his diuine Majestie neede we any better warrant for praying vnto others then the aduise and commandement of God himselfe Now to the confirmation of the consequent But the Saints Math. 11. vers 11. yea the least in the Kingdome of heauen is greater then S. Iohn Baptist that is then the best on earth ergo their prayers will doe vs much more good then any mans prayer yet liuing M. PERKINS answereth that we haue a commandement to pray vnto the liuing but none to pray vnto Saints departed Reply I haue already confuted this answere vvhere I shewed before that we neede no commandement to pray or to desire others to pray for vs but it is sufficient to knowe their credit with God and willingnesse to intreate for vs when they be
article of our beleefe borne of the Virgin Mary No more is there vnto that other specified by M. PERKINS he ascended into heauen and from thence shall he come to judge c for albeit he ascended the fortith day after his resurrection and shall at the last day come from thence to judgement yet betweene those two daies he may be where he will and wheresoeuer else he be it hath no direct repugnance with either branch of that article and therefore it doth but bewray the insufficiency of the Protestants skill in the rules of opposition or repugnances who so confidently auerre such great contrariety to be where there is none at all But Augustine saith Tract 50. in Ioannē Lib. 9. in Ioannem Lib. 2. ad Thras Cont. Eutich lib. 1. cap. 4. that Christ according vnto his Majestie prouidence grace is present with vs to the end of the world but according vnto his assumed flesh he is not alwaies with vs the same doth also Cyril Fulgentius and Vigilius testifie We answere that Christ in deede according vnto that visible forme of a man in which he once liued here vvith his Disciples hath very seldome beene seene vpon earth since his ascension but according vnto that forme of assumed flesh sitteth on the right hand of his Father which answere I take out of Vigilius cited here by M. PER. For he saith that Christ is departed from vs in the forme of a seruant that is according vnto his naturall shape of man but may neuerthelesse be very well with vs vnder the formes of bread and wine in the Sacrament which S. Augustine insinuateth in the very treatise alleaged by M. PERKINS saying that Christ is nowe with vs in foure sortes by Faith by the signe of the Crosse by Baptisme and by the Eucharist where making his manner of being with vs in the Eucharist distinct from his presence both by faith signe and grace doth shewe it to be a reall bodily presence which he teacheth most plainely vpon these wordes of the Psalme adore his foote-stoole concluding thereon Psal 98. that the same flesh which our Sauiour tooke of the blessed Virgin Mary was then and is nowe to be adored in the Sacrament therefore notwithstanding his being in heauen in forme of man he assuredly belieued his naturall body to be really present in the Eucharist So did S. Cyril another of M. PER. authours Libr. 12. cap. 31. who vpon S. Iohn auoucheth Christ by his flesh receiued in the Eucharist to sanctifie the soules and bodies of all communicants and to be wholy in euery one of them to vvhome I will joyne their equall S. Gregory of Nisse who saith Orat. de Paschate like as the God-head doth fill the vvhole vvorld euen so consecration is made in very many places and yet is it but one body so that by these worthy writers judgements Christes ascention to heauen doth not any whit hinder the reall presence of his body in the holy Sacrament And to dispatch here together that which M. PER. repeateth againe and againe that a true body cannot be in two places at once we plainely hold with the holy Fathers that one and the same body may by the omnipotent power of God be in as many places at once as it shall please him to set it That this hath no repugnance vvith true Philosophy shall be proued in the next argument And here by the warrant of Gods word I will proue that Christes body de facto hath beene in two places at once That since the ascension it sitteth at the right hand of God in heauen both we and they confesse but longe after his ascension Actor 9. he appeared bodily vnto S. Paul as he went towardes Damasco ergo his body hath beene in two places at once Caluin turneth himselfe on both sides seeketh all possible meanes to shift from the euidence of this place saying first In cap. 9. Actor Act. 22. vers 15 Act. 26 vers 16. that it was some voice only heard from heauen by S. Paul as at Christes baptisme but Christ was not there really This is said most manifestly against the plaine text God ordained that thou shouldest see the just one and heare a voice out of his owne mouth therefore he vvas really present and Christ saith to this end I appeared vnto thee And S. Paul himselfe vvitnesseth a 1. Cor. 3 vers 1.6 1. Cor. 15. vers 8. that he had seene Christ after his resurrection euen as the other Apostles had done which was in bodily presence in the same b Act. 9. vers 5. 4. Instit 17. § 29. chap. S. Paul demanded of him that appeared who art thou Lord and he answered I am IESVS was not he then present What can be more plainely set downe or is more often repeated in the very text of Scripture yet the blind obstinacy of Caluin was such that not being able to defend but that Christ appeared turneth himselfe the other way and had rather say that S. Paules eye-sight was so much strengthned and made so sharpe that it pearced through the heauens and did see Christ sitting there on the right hand of his Father and so Christ did not descend or was seene out of heauen but S. Paules sight mounted vp thether Reply This doctrine is first repugnant to himselfe vvho scoffeth at vs for maintayning that the Saints in heauen can heare our prayers 3. Instit 20. §. 24. and asketh howe they can haue so long eares and so sharpe eyes as to heare and see so farre off vvhich here notvvithstanding hee attributeth vnto a poore earthly creature nothing comparable to the Saints in heauen But besides that contradiction this his answere is much more absurde then the other For vvhome he imagineth to be so Eagle-eyed that he could see into heauen Act. 9. vers 8. the text vvitnesseth to be strooke starke blinde and not able to see the broad high-vvay before him Againe if that vision had beene through the vertue of S. Paules sight his companions should not haue beene partakers of it Act. 26. vers 13. Act. 9. vers 8. Act. 9. vers 17. but they did both see the light and also heard the voice though not so distinctly as to vnderstand it Further there passed many speaches betweene them Who art thou Lord What wilt thou haue mee to doe c. vvhich doth conuince a sensible and bodily presence Lastly it is said directly that Christ appeared vnto S. Paul in the way not that he had seene him in heauen so that nothing can be more certaine euen by the euidence of Gods vvord then that Christes body hath beene in two places at once as vvell may it be in two thousand or in as many more as it shall please God to imploy it for there is no greater repugnance in reason for being in many places then for being in tvvo at once S. Chrisost S. Ambros Primasius in cap. 10. And as you
the like occasion doth himselfe plainly declare For vpon these wordes of S. Iohn If any man offend 1. Ioan. 2. tract 1. we haue an aduocate with the Father IESVS Christ the just one where he putteth this doubt but some man will say therefore doe not the Saints pray for vs doe not the Bishops and gouernours pray for the people After hee solueth this doubt concluding that all the members of Christes body doe pray one for another marry the head prayeth for all vvhere he most plainely sheweth that the soueraigne intercession or mediation of Christ the head doth not exclude the intercession of Saints departed no more then it doth of any other yet liuing M. PERKINS citeth also one sentence out of S. Chrysostome who hath vvritten thus Thou hast no neede of Patrones to God De perfect Euangel nor much running vp and downe to flatter and fawne vpon others for though thou be alone and want a Patrone and by thy selfe pray vnto God thou shalt obtayne thy desire Answere It seemeth by his wordes of running vp and downe and flattering of others vvhich Gods Saints vvill not endure that he speaketh against seeking vnto vaine-glorious and euill mortall men to be our Patrones to God which were folly But admit he meant the Saints departed then let vs take his whole meaning and not wrest his wordes to any other sence then he vvill allowe and like of he doth then often inueigh both against certayne rich men vvho hauing giuen some little almes to the poore thought themselues sure of pardon of their sinnes and of saluation through the poore mens prayers though they prayed not themselues and also against all such sluggish lazie persons as relyed wholy vpon the intercession of Saints not praying much for themselues vpon such as these doth S. Chrysostome often call to pray for themselues and not to trust wholy vnto the prayers of others perswading them that it were better to pray for themselues vvithout Patrones then leauing all to Patrons not to pray themselues at all But the best of all to be both to pray themselues and to imploy also good men and the Saints to pray for them this is his owne declaration in these his wordes Homil. 5. in Math. Let vs not like sluggards and slouthfull companions depend wholy vpon the merits of others for the prayers and supplications of Saints for vs haue their force and that surely very great but then truly when we our selues doe withall by our penitence request and sue for the same And making the like discourse in another place he concludeth thus Homil. 1. in 1. ad Thessal Knowing these thinges neither let vs despise the prayers of the Saints neither let vs cast all vpon them Nowe to the arguments for the Catholike party my first argument shal be to proue that we may pray to the Angels in heauen to blesse vs and to pray for vs to whome after our blessed Lady vve assigne the first place in our Lytanie We haue for our vvarrant the authority and example of the holy Patriarke Iacob expresly set downe in holy Scripture for prayer to Angels Genes 48.15 16. in these wordes God before whome my fathers Abraham and Isaac haue walked God who hath fedde me from my youth vnto this present day and the Angell that hath deliuered me from all euill blesse these children What can be more playne then that this blessed old Patriarke did pray vnto his good Angell Guardian Nay saith M. PER. for by the Angell there you â—â—st vnderstand Christ for that in Malachie Christ is signified by the Angell of the couenant A bonny reason because that an Angell is once in the old Testament vsed to signifie Christ therefore it shall signifie him in vvhat place soeuer it shall please the Protestants Neither doth an Angell in that one place singly put signifie Christ but with an addition the Angell of the couenant to distinguish that Angell from all others so that there is no appearance or colour of likelyhood out of that place so vnlike to interprete this It remayneth then that the vvord Angell be taken properly as it is most commonly in holy Scripture for an heauenly spirit appointed by God to keepe Iacob vvhich I confirme by the circumstance of the place because Iacob prayeth vnto that Angell as to one that vvas then extant and liuing that had also before deliuered him from many perils but Christ vvas not then borne nor had any doings in the vvorld therefore he did not pray to him Againe the wise Patriarke and Prophet must be made to speake very fondly if he should pray him that was not in rerum natura to blesse those children he might very well haue prayed God for Christes sake that vvas to come to blesse them but to pray Christ himselfe whome he knewe then not to be any where liuing or extant to blsse them hath no sence in it for blessing as all other working supposeth a reall being and existence of the same party To this example of Iacob vve may joyne the consaile that Eliphas the Thamite gaue vnto Iob Turne thy selfe vnto some of the Saints and Iobs owne practise * Cap. 19. vers 21. Tob. c. 12. vers 12. Iob cap. 5. vers 1. Haue pitty on me haue pitty on me at least you my friendes Vpon which place S. Augustine saith that Iob the holy man made intercession to the Angels or to the Saints to pray for him to vvhich we may also adde howe that Raphael offered vp good Tobias prayers to God and howe that another a Apoc. 8. vers 3. Angell did giue of the incense of prayers of all Saints vpon the Altar of gold which is before the throne of God Out of which places and such like I frame this argument The Angels be most holy and charitable creatures of themselues they also haue by Gods appointment charge ouer vs and doe assist vs wherevpon it followeth most clearely that they are most ready in vvord and deede to further all our good desires and honest demandes and consequently being by vs requested to pray for vs cannot refuse it To say that they haue no care of our prayers is both contrary to their charity and to their charge and the places in Scripture already cited to vvhich this may be added Christ to discourage men from offending children and little ones alleageth this inducement Math. 18. vers 10. That their Angels see the face of his father in heauen signifying that they vvould complaine of them to God and sue for seuere punishment against such offendours vvhich argueth that they doe very well knowe and carefully tender our good vvhich is also strengthned by an other place Luc. 15. vers 10. where our Sauiour declareth what great joy they make at the conuersion of a sinner Out of all vvhich textes is plainely to be collected that they knowe of our conuersion see the particular wrongs that be offered vs and the
thereunto requested Wherefore saieth M. PERKINS secondly there is a great difference betweene requesting one to pray for vs and by inuocation to request them that are absent for this is a worshippe that is giuen to them and a power to heare and helpe all that call vpon them Reply First that by inuocation we may pray vnto men S. Augustine teacheth directly grounding himselfe vpon the expresse text of Scripture Locut in Gen. 200. Gen. 48. vers 15. where Iacob commandeth that his name and the name of his fore-fathers be inuocated vpon of the children of Israel And vvhat is inuocation in English but the calling vpon one vvhich is as lawfull as the praying vnto him That we doe them an honour and worship thereby I grant and say that the Saints being better then the liuing are better worthy of that worship then the liuing Further that we assigne them a power to heare them that be absent more then the liuing can doe it is no maruaile for the perfection of their heauenly state requireth that prerogatiue as I haue more then once declared But because this point of their knowledge breedeth the greatest doubt of praying vnto the Saints let S. Augustine a most juditious Doctor and one that was not partiall in that matter deliuering his sentence grounded also vpon holy Scripture be hearkened vnto and followed he treating of the happynesse of Saints in heauen hath these vvordes Lib. 22. de ciuit 29. If the Prophet Helizeus being absent in body did see his seruant Giësy receiuing the gifts which Naaman the Syrian gaue him c. how much more in that spirituall body shall Saints see all thinges not only if they shut their eyes but also from whence they be in body absent this he confirmeth by that sentence of the Apostle 1. Cor. 13. ver 9.10 We knowe in part and in part doe we prophesie but when that shall come which is perfect then shall that be made voide which is in part c. Hence thus reasoneth S. Augustine If the knowledge of this life in such as the Prophets and Apostles were be no more in comparison of the Saints knowledge in heauen then is a little childe compared to a man and this which is in part to that which is perfect then surely if Helizeus and other Prophets did see thinges done farre distant from them yea thinges that were to be done many hundred yeares after their times they being without doubt indued with this admirable knowledge from God howe much abundantly shall all they in heauen enjoy this gift when their bodies shall not hinder them yea they shall not neede bodylie eyes to see thinges absent but with the hart or spirit they shall be present to them 4. Reg. 5. vers 26. as Helizeus was who said was not my hart present when the man returned from his chariot to meete thee Can any thing be more euident or more soundly proued then that the Saints in heauen haue great preheminence aboue all that liued vpon the earth to see and knowe thinges absent and farre distant from them which the same father proueth also by most euident experience in the fifteenth and sixteenth Chapters of his booke intituled de cura pro mortuis agenda And that you may perceiue that that is not the opinion of S. Augustine alone I will joyne the testimonies of three or foure other Fathers with him S. Cyril Patriarke of Hierusalem saith Euen as S. Peter did question Ananias Catach 16 Act. 5. willing him to tell whether he had sold his ground for so much so did the Prophet Helizeus though he were not ignorant of it aske his seruant Giësy whether he had not receiued money of Naaman the Syrian for saith he nothing done euen in the darke is hidden from the Saints S. Basil writeth thus Let a Virgin first of all feare her owne conscience L. de Virginitate and if shee be neuer so solitary yet hath shee her Angell guardian present whose sight shee must not contemne specially when as they haue Angels as it were patterns of virginity but before all Angels let her respect and reuerence her spouse Christ who is present euery where And why did I speake of an Angell for shee hath an innumerable company of Angels present and with them the holy spirits or soules of the Fathers for there is none of these who doth not see all thinges euery where not truly beholding them with corporall eyes but by a spirituall sight pearcing vnto the knowledge of all thinges The same doth S. Athanasius that famous ancient Doctor resolue in his 32. question Quaest 32. See S. Augustine also lib. 20. of the Citty of God the 22. Chapter Teaching that the Saints in heauen doe knowe in particular what is done among the damned in hell And S. Hierome doth proue against Vigilantius that The Saints who followe the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth be excluded from no place and scorneth that dreaming Heretike for imagining that vnlesse the soules of the Martirs did lye houering about their shrines they could not heare their prayers that went thither to pray affirming him therefore to be a monster worthy to be banished into the vttermost câ—asts of the earth Encherines a most holy and learned Arch-bishop of Lyons all most 1200. yeares since confirmeth the same grounding his discourse vpon the same texts of Scripture that S. Augustine did saying If the Prophet Helizeus absent in body did see his seruant Giësy taking gifts howe much more shall Saints in that spirituall body see all thinges not only if they shut their eyes but also from whence they are in body absent For then shall be that perfection of which the Apostle speaketh in part we knowe and in part doe we prophesie 1. Cor. 13. but when that shall come which is perfect it shall be voyded which is in part therefore when that shall come which is perfect and this corruptible body shall no longer cumber the soule but it shall haue a glorious body which shall nothing hinder it shall the Saints then neede the helpe of bodylie eyes to see such thinges which Helizeus absent needed not to behold his seruant The testimonies of so many vvorthy Fathers will I hope suffice to perswade any reasonable man that the Saints in heauen doe very well heare our prayers To these I will joyne that which M. PER. maketh our second objection because it doth fortifie the same Luc. 16. vers 24. Abraham not then in possession of heauenly knowledge after our doctrine but in heauen as the Protestants thinke did heare Diues from hell vvhich is further off from heauen then the face of the earth which we inhabite and therefore more easily might he haue heard any liuing body praying vnto him then he did that rich glutton out of hell M. PERKINS answereth That this is a parable and out of a parable nothing can be gathered but that which is agreable vnto the intent
thereof Reply Why doth he then twice in this very question gather out of it first that Abraham was in heauen then that faith is not to be confirmed by apparitions of dead men vvhich are not the principall intent and scope of it but we must giue our newe Masters leaue both to affirme a thing when it seemeth to make for them and after to denie the same flatly when it beareth against them Lib. 2. in IouinianuÌ„ de cura pro mort cap. 14. lib. 4. dialog c. 29. We then say with S. Ambrose vpon that place vvith S. Hierome with S. Augustine and with S. Gregory the foure principall Doctors of the Latin Church that the story of Diues and Lazarus is a true hystoricall narration and not a parable of that which neuer was as by the proper names of Abraham and Lazarus and other circumstances they gather And vvhereas M. PER. objecteth against it That then it may be collected out of it that wicked men in hell haue compassion and loue to their bretheren on earth and zeale to Gods glory because Diues seemeth so to haue had I answere that there is no appearance of any zeale of Gods glory in Diues only he desired that some might goe out of that place of torment to aduertise his bretheren of it that they came not to him thither which was not out of any loue neither that he bare to his bretheren but for feare of his owne further torments if they came thither after him because he had giuen them euill example and encouragement to doe euill and perhaps euill counsell vvhen he liued vvith them and therefore was by their condemnation to receiue increase of his owne paynes so that his intreaty for them proceeded only out of the loue of himselfe and from the feare of more grieuous torments Nowe it being certayne that Abraham in heauen according to the Protestants opinion could heare Diues in hel much more easily can the Saints in heauen heare our prayers or any mans that dwelleth on earth Nowe after our doctrine who hold Abraham then to haue beene in Lymbo thus the argument must be framed If Abraham not yet indued with that perfect knowledge which the Saints in heauen haue could neuerthelesse heare Diues in hell betweene whome and himselfe there was magnum Chaos Ibid. 26. as the text hath a huge deepe darkenesse and great distance with much facility can the Saints who excell him being then in Lymbo in knowledge see and heare men liuing on the earth Our fift argument the Saints in heauen doe present vnto God the prayers of holy men liuing vpon the earth therefore they knowe the same prayers well in particular and embrace and recommend them to the diuine Majestie The consequent is manifest because no man can offer vp by word of mouth a petition if he knowe not what it is neither will any vvise-man such as the Saints be speake for he knoweth not whome nor what wherefore if the Saints doe present our prayers to God they doe knowe them in particular The antecedent is set downe in expresse tearmes in the word of God The 24. Seniours who sate about the throne of God fell before the Lambe hauing euery one harpes and golden vials ful of odours Apoc. 5. vers 8. which are the prayers of Saints M. PER. saith that these were their owne prayers and not other mens but vvithout alleadging either authority or reason We proue by the text it selfe that it must be vnderstoode of other mens prayers and not their owne because otherwise in due construction it should haue beene said Which are their owne praiers but the text saying That the odour of their vials were the prayers of Saints it distinguisheth plainely those Saints from themselues vvhich also the learned interpreters on that place Primasius and the Greeke schoole with Oecumenius doth confirme and testifie The former arguments were to proue that the Saints doe heare our prayers now the sixt reason shall be to meete with that out-cry of our aduersaries that forsooth vve robbe God of his honour and giue it to Saints when we pray vnto them thus God is more honoured by our worshipping and praying vnto Saints departed then if we did no worship vnto them nor prayed not vnto them at all but went immediately to God without their helpe therefore if it were for nothing else but for the greater honor of God we ought to worship Saints and to pray vnto them I proue the former proposition thus First we worship the Saints only for the supernaturall gifts vvhich God hath bestowed vpon them which must needes redound vnto the honour of the giuer as when I honour any of the kings officers it being principally because he is the kings officer the King himselfe is together and more principally honored and Christ saith expresly that hee that despiseth one of his seruants Luc. 10. vers 16. despiseth Christ himselfe Whence it followeth that he who respecteth and honoureth one of his seruants especially because he is his seruant doth together and in deed more principally honour Christ he and his graces being the very cause why vve respect and vvorshippe the other Further vvhen many and those of the vvorthyest sort doe become humble suitors vnto God for any one of vs much more honour is done vnto God through the dignity of their persons then if one meane silly sinner did sue to him alone For it is more honourable and magnificall to doe a pleasure at the instance and request of many vvorthy personages then where one poore worme alone doth sue for it yea and much more excellent thankes is rendred vnto God by the number and dignity of the suitors when their petition is graunted them This argument which is euident reason is grounded also vpon S. Pauls authority who requesteth the Christians of Corinth to helpe him in their prayers 2. Cor. 1. vers 11. That saith he by many mens persons thankes for the gift which is in vs may be giuen by many in our behalfe Seeing then that by our praying vnto the Saints they are drawne in to become suitors vvith vs and for vs and consequently obtayning their suite they stand aswell bound to render thankes to God therefore as we doe It followeth thereupon most euidently that God is by our praying to his Saints both more honored when such worthy persons sue vnto him for vs and also better thanked for that we doe obtaine by their intercession Now let vs close vp this question with the testimony of some of the moâ—â— ancient famous and best learned Doctors of both the Greeke and Latin Church Origen who liued not much aboue 200. yeares after Christ prayeth vnto that blessed paterne of patience Iob Lib. 2. in Iob. thus O happy Iob nowe liuing for euer with God and remayning a conquerour in the sight of our Lord and King pray for vs wreatches that the wonderfull mercy of God may also defend vs in all tribulations and deliuer
the chiefest Bishops and Doctors aswell for their Godlynesse of life as for their knowledge in holy Scriptures who were also chosen by the holy Ghost to gouerne instruct and teach the principal Churches in both Europe Africke and Asia and that in or about the most flourishing state thereof for all of them sauing S. Gregory the great and venerable Bede liued within 400. and some within 200. yeares of Christ Whither I say these most sound testimonies of so many sacred and worthy personages be not sufficient to perswade any reasonableman that praying to the Saints in heauen is both agreable to Gods vvord which no man in these dayes vnderstandeth halfe so well as the worst of any of them did and also very profitable for vs. Yet for the further assurance of this important matter I wil adde one miracle which I touched before wrought in confirmation of it so that he that will not beleeue this shall be conuinced not to beleeue God himselfe witnessing of it In the coasts of Thelousae in France Ex lib. 3. vitae S. Bernardi cap. 5. about 400. yeares past one Henry an Apostata and wicked fellowe beganne to cry out against praying for the dead and praying to Saints and pilgrimages and some other points of the Catholike doctrine the fame of S. Bernards holynesse and learning being then very great he was sent for by the Popes Legate to come thither to stay the people from following that lewde companion who on a day after he had preached at a towne called Sarlate blessed some loaues of bread and said This shall be a certayne proofe that our doctrine is true and theirs false if those that be sicke by tasting of this holy bread be cured of their diseases There stood by among others the Bishop of Charters who fearing what might followe added if they taste of it with faith Nay said the holy Father Barnard nothing doubting of Gods power I say not so but he that shall taste of it shall be truly cured that they may knowe vs to be true men and the true messengers of God then a great multitude tasting of it were according to his word perfectly healed of what disease soeuer they had What can be more euident or better assured then that praying to Saints is the truth of God seing that it pleased God to confirme it in such sort by the miraculous curing of so many people M. PERKINS for an vpshot saith that he finally dissenteth from the Catholikes because they are not content to pray to Saints but say further that God through their merits in heauen doth bestowe many benefits vpon vs on earth I would he agreed with vs in the two former points we should quickly be at accord in this for the good-man is fouly mistaken if he thinke that vve affirme the Saints after they be come to heauen to merit a newe there for we hold that none after their death can merit any more but doe then receiue according vnto their former merits either saluation or damnation but we neuerthelesse say that God in respect of their former merits gotten in this life doth for their sakes bestowe many benefits vpon vs and this doth M. PER. himselfe confirme in plaine wordes In this question when he graunteth pressed thereto by the euidence of Gods word that men vpon earth haue helpe and benefit by the faith and piety which the Saints departed shewed when they were in this life for saith he further God shewed mercy on them that keepe his commandements to a thousand generations True it is that this their faith and piety he would not haue to be called merits but vve with that most honourable Father S. Ambrose doe say Apud Deum Lib. 5. super LucaÌ„ seruus interueniendi meritum jus habet impetrandi with God a seruant of his hath both the merit to be an intercessour and the right to obtayne his suite see more of merits in that question Here M. PER. addeth against himselfe That the Saints in heauen haue receiued the full reward of all their merits and therefore there is nothing further that they can merit Here we haue first that the Saints had merits which he was wont to deny flatly againe how doth God hauing fully rewarded their former faith and piety at their entrance into heauen afterward for their sakes shew mercy to thousands which he confesseth himselfe wherefore he is aswell bound to answere this as we are it bearing as strongly against his owne doctrine as it doth against ours To saue him a labour I answere in a word that it is one part of the reward of a faithful seruant to be alwayes after not deseruing the contrary in his Masters fauour and so gratious with him that he may intreate any reasonable matâ—â—r at his handes so are the Saints vvith God vvho can neuer be wearyed with their suites so long as they all doe but tend vnto his owne honour and the saluation of his poore creatures and as we both agreed vpon before Their faith piety and charity whiles they liued did and doth still moue and cause God to shewe mercy vnto thousands vpon earth for their sakes though their merits were before most abundantly rewarded let this suffice for this question OF IMPLICITE OR INFOLDED FAITH M. PERKINS Page 266. THis question is handled for two causes as he saith pag. 274. first to rectifie the conscience of the weaker sort of his disciples secondly to rectifie their Catechismes which doe as he censureth require too full an assurance of saluation in all men It being then for the instruction of his ovvne deceiued flocke and not much appertayning to vs I will post it ouer lightly He teacheth a twofold implicity of faith first that faithfull men may be ignorant at the beginning of many articles of faith and learne them afterwardes It was so in deede in Christes time because he taught them not all a once but since the establishment of the Gospell it is necessary that euery one beleeue all the articles of the Apostles Creede the true doctrine of the Sacraments and such other necessary heades of the Christian religion other points of faith may be learned in time according vnto the capacity of the persons The second fold of his faith is that many of his deceiued disciples haue not at their conuersion and in time of temptation a full assurance of their saluation which notwithstanding will serue the turne then if they desire to haue a full assurance and labour afterward to attayne vnto it which he speaketh to the comfort of their consciences that cannot perswade themselues so assuredly that their sinnes are pardoned them This presumptious doctrine of full assurance of saluation I haue in a seueral question before confuted therefore I say only here that no Christian is bound to haue any such absolute assurance of his owne saluation but that he must according to the Apostles rule worke his saluation with trembling and feare Ad Philip. 2.
he was when it pleased him visible to his Apostles and at other times inuisible and yet was not his man-hood thereby abolished as M. PER. would make vs beleeue no more is it when his body is in many places at once or in one place circumscribed and in the other vncircumscribed For these externall relations of bodies vnto their places doe no whit at all destroy their inward and naturall substances as al Philosophie testifieth wherefore hence to gather that we denie both the Father and the Sonne to be God doth sauour I will not say of a silly wit but of a froward will peeuishly bent to cauill and calumniate Secondly Master PERKINS chargeth vs with disgrading Christ of his offices saying that for one Iesus Christ the onely King lawe-giuer and head of the Church they joyne vnto him the Pope not only as a Vicar but as a fellowe in that they giue vnto him power to make lawes binding in conscience to resolue and determine infallibly the sence of holy Scripture properly to pardon sinne to haue authority ouer the whole earth and a part of hell to depose Kinges to whome vnder Christ euery soule is subject to absolue subjects from the oath of alleageance c. Answere Here is a bed-role of many superfluous speeches for not one of all these thinges if we admitte them all to be true doth conuince vs to haue disgraded Christ of his offices which are these to appease Gods wrath towardes vs to pay the ransome for our sinnes to conquer the Diuell to open the Kingdome of heauen to be supreme head of both men and Angels and such like He may without any derogation vnto these his soueraigne prerogatiues giue vnto his seruants first power to make lawes that binde in conscience as he hath done to all Princes which the Protestantes themselues dare not denie then to determine vnfallibly of the true sence of holy Scripture which the Apostles could doe as all men confesse and yet doe not make them Christes fellowes but his humble seruants to whome also he gaue power properly to pardon sinnes Luc. 24. Ioan. 20. Mar. 16. Matt. 28. Whose sinnes you pardon on earth sbal be pardoned in heauen and finally to them he also gaue authority ouer the whole earth goe into the vniuersall world Ouer part of hell no Pope hath authority and when he doth good to any soule in Purgatory it is per modum suffragij as a suppliant and entreater not as a commander Whether he hath any authority ouer Princes their subjects in temporall affaires it is questioned by some yet no man not wilfully blinde can doubt but that Christ might haue giuen him that authority without disgrading himselfe of it as he hath imparted to him and to others also faculties of greater authority and vertue reseruing neuerthelesse the same vnto himselfe in a much more excellent manner As a King by substituting a viceroy or some such like deputie to whome he giues most large commission doth not thereby disgrade himselfe of his Kingly authority as all the world knowes no more did our Sauiour Christ Iesus bereaue himselfe of his power or dignity when he bestowed some part thereof vpon his substitutes He goes on multiplying a number of idle wordes to small purpose as that we for one Christ the only reall Priest of the newe Testament joyne many secondary Priestes vnto him which offer Christ daylie in the Masse We indeede hold the Apostles to haue beene made by Christ not imputatiue or phantasticall but reall and true Priestes And by Christ his owne order and commandement to haue offered his body and bloud daylie in the sacrifice of the Masse what of that see that question Furthermore he saith for one Iesus the all sufficient mediatour of intercession they haue added many fellowes to him to make request for vs namely as many Saintes as be in the Popes Kalendar yea and many more too For we hold that any of the faithfull yet liuing may be also requested to pray for vs neither shall he in hast be able to proue that Christ only maketh intercession for vs though he be the only mediatour that hath redeemed vs. Lastly saith M. PERKINS for the only merittes of Christ in whome alone the Father is well pleased what was he not well pleased with his Apostles they haue deuised a treasury of the Churches contayning besides the merittes of Christ the ouerplus of the merittes of Saints to be dispensed to men at the discretion of the Pope and thus we see that Christ and his merittes be abolished Answere The good man is somewhat mistaken for we hold not any ouerplus of merits in Saints the which we acknowledge to be by God fully rewarded in heauen but we affirme that some Saints and blessed Martirs haue suffered more paynes in this life then the temporall punishment of their owne sinnes â—eserued Iob 6. v. â— Who therefore might truely say with that just man Iob would to God my sinnes whereby I haue deserued wrath were weighed with the calamitie that I suffer euen as the sandes of the Sea this should be the heauyer Nowe parte of these sufferinges of Gods Saints as being needelesse for their owne satisfaction are reserued in the Churches store-house and may by the high steward of the Church to whome the dispensation of her treasure belongeth he communicated to others as very reason teacheth vs for who is fitter to dispose of any mans goodes then he to whome the charge thereof is giuen by his testament And thus I hope euery reasonable man doth finde vs Catholikes to be farre of from transforming Christ into an Idoll of mans conceite as Master PERKINS dreameth only we see a misconceited man labouring in vaine to deface Christes benefites toward vs to calumniate his chiefe seruantes and to skirmish more against his owne phantasies then against any doctrine of ours He layeth lastly a third kinde of Atheisme against vs for worshipping of God not with such respect as is sutable to his nature For saith he our worshippe is meere will worshippe for the most part without any allowance or commandement of God as Durand in his Rationale in effect acknowledgeth it is a carnall seruice standing of innumerable bodylie rites and ceremonies borrowed partly from the Iewes and partly from the Heathens it is deuided betweene God and some of his creatures in that they are worshipped both with one kinde of worshippe let them paint it as they can c. Answere Ipse dixit Pythagoras hath pronounced his sentence yet you neede not beleeue him vnlesse you list because he fableth so formally doth Durand acknowledge that all our worship is meere will worship and that it hath no allowance of God O egregious and impudent deceiuer For that learned deuout Author Durand doth nothing else in all that booke then set out the Majesty and declared the meaning of the true worship of God vsed daylie in our seruice throughout the whole yeare And therefore doth entitle
who delighteth not to cauill vpon wordes vnderstanding our meaning to be very farre off from attributing any iote of Gods honour vnto any Saint or any other thing whatsoeuer cannot be justly offended with our tearmes of religious worshippe giuen to Saintes when as he is before-hand giuen to vnderstand that we take religious to signifie not that which is proper to God but those religious gifts which be in godly men Hence also it followeth most perspicuously what intollerable wrong they doe vs that call vs Idolaters or say that we robbe God of his honour and giue it vnto Saintes For vve say and repeate it a thousand times ouer and ouer and declare it as plainely as can be that it is the most haynous crime in the vvorld to giue any such soueraigne honour as is due to God only vnto eyther Angels or Saintes to vvit to esteeme them to be infinitly mighty vvise or good or to bee the Creatours or supreame Gouernours of heauen and earth or briefly to be the authors of any supernaturall or naturall excellency or perfection These and such like pointes of Diuine honour we ascribe not to any creature but say that the Saintes are Gods creatures and seruants and doe receiue all that they eyther be or haue or Gods liberallity yet we hold it not to derogate any whit from the due honour we owe vnto God to yeeld such honour and worship vnto his Saints and seruants as he hath made them worthy of Nay rather we doe not a litle honour God himselfe when we worship Godly men for his diuine gifts bestowed vpon them and vvhen vvee thinke that because they haue faithfully serued him on earth they are nowe in heauen in high fauour with him and can sooner obtaine any reasonable suite of him then other mortall men vvho are subject to many infirmities Neyther doe wee diminish any thing at all Christ our Sauiours mediation by making the Saintes our intercessours For as shall bee hereafter declared at large we attribute no point of Christes mediation to them but only range and place the Saints intercession with the prayers of other good men liuing on earth and vvith our owne although in a different degree of perfection their 's being farre better then ours yet all are made in Christes name and are effectuall through the merits of his Passion But one may here object howe then doe Catholikes affirme and say that the Saints are their hope and refuge and howe can they desire them To haue mercy vpon them and to helpe them vvhich seeme to be thinges proper to God alone and to Christ our redeemer I answere first that these speeches in good sence haue beene vsed by most auncient learned and circumspect Authours and that by imitation of the holie Scriptures For holy Iob saith Haue mercy on me haue mercy on me Iob 19. 1. Thess 2. vers 18. Cap. 15. vers 30. 1. Cap. 9. vers 19. at least you my friendes And Saint Paul calleth the Thessalonians His hope his joy and crowne of glory and desireth the Romans to helpe him in their prayers and saith to the Corinthians that he became all thinges to all men that he might saue all vvith diuers such like So that no discreet man ought to condemne such speeches to the Saints if they bee vttered vvith a good meaning to vvit that they taking compassion of our frailty and misery doe by their gratious intercession helpe to procure our pardon and to obtayne at Gods bounteous handes through the merit of Christes passion all such heauenly graces as vve stand neede of Albeit as I haue sayed such tearmes haue been very vvell vsed in all antiquity yet in these our captious dayes I could vvish that Catholikes vvould vse them very sparingly for feare of scandalizing the poore deceaued Protestants Obserue lastly that by the outward manner and externall shewe of worshippe it cannot be sufficiently discerned whether it be Diuine Religious or Ciuill for as we kneele to God so doe we also on our knee honour the King 1. Reg. 24. vers 10. and his Councell As Dauid did adore King Saul prostrate on the earth But the difference consisteth chiefly in the inward conceite and disposition of the minde and so whether we kneele or no if we prostrate our harts before God inclining it vnto him as to the Authour of all thinges infinitly perfect we doe him Godly honour So if we kneele to any Saints or before any picture of a Saint in honour of the Saint acknowledging in our harts the Saint to be a very holy creature indued with many great graces of God and dearely beloued of him we doe but duly worshippe the Saint as kneeling to the King and in our harts confessing him to be the supreame Gouernour vnder God of the temporall state of his Kingdome vve doe but our duties vnto our King To conclude it is not the outward fashion of worshippe that maketh it proper to God or Man when as kneeling to one may be also in dirision of him as when Pilates souldiers kneeled to Christ but the inward conceite and inclination of the judgement and hart And therefore they are very simple that reprehend Catholikes of Idolatry for kneeling before pictures when as they kneele not to the picture it selfe no more then Protestants kneele vnto that part of their seate or to the wall that is before them but they doe kneele to God as to their soueraigne Lord and to the Saint as to an holy personage whose prayer to God for them they humbly request Nowe to the maine point in controuersie M. PER. denyeth That any ciuill worshippe in bending of the knee or prostrating of the body is to be giuen to either Saints or Angels and much lesse any religious worshippe as namely inuocation signified by any bodily adoration for that saith he is the honour of God himselfe by what name soeuer you call it And this is all he saith for ought I can see touching the worshipping of Saints We on the other side say that vve may both bend the knee and prostrate the body to any Angell or Saint in heauen and with a religious inclination and obeysance of our harts worshippe them for their excellent supernaturall gifts and that this kinde of worshippe is much inferior vnto the honour proper to God yea that it is infinitly lesse then that as hath beene already declared M. PER. hath one only shadowe of a reason why we must not yeeld any ciuill worship vnto the Saints Because saith he they be absent from vs and we vse not to worshippe men that be absent ergo Which is most easily confuted and that two wayes First if we say as vve vvill proue afterward that though they be farre distant from vs in place yet they see and knowe all the honour that vve present to them and so are they morally present and as so present may be vvorshipped Secondly that we may truly honor them who are absent corporally by lifting vp our
harts to them and so representing them to our mindes may reuerence and vvorship them as spiritually present according to that of S. Paul I absent in body but present in spirit otherwise 1. Cor. 5. vers 3. vve Christians should not vvhiles we liued on earth adore the humanity of our Sauiour Christ IESVS because he touching his humanity is absent from vs which were most absurd and so is therefore M. PERKINS reason out of vvhich it would necessarily followe And because M. PER. confoundeth this point of worshipping of Saints with that of inuocation and hudleth them together nowe talking of the one then of the other besides al good methode and order and consequently maketh two Chapters of the same matter I will here in this former Chapter only treate of the worshipping of Saints drawing what M. PERKINS saith of this subject into this Chapter and referre the matter to inuocation vnto the next His second reason then against worshipping of Saints may be that which maketh the third in the 14. Chapter Christ refused so much as to bowe the knee vnto Satan vpon this ground because it is written thou shalt worshippe the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue To this S. Augustine hath answered 1200. yeares agoe vpon those vvordes of Genesis Abraham adored or worshipped the people of the land Cap. 23. Quaest 61. super Genesiâ— It may be demanded saith he howe it is written thou shalt adore thy Lord God and him only shalt thou serue when as Abraham did so honour that kinde of people that he did adore them but we must obserue that in the same Commandement it is not said thou shalt only adore thy Lord thy God as it is said him only shalt thou serue which in Greeke is Latréysis for such seruice is due to God only So that in briefe this most learned Father answereth our Protestants that the seruice proper to God called Latria is to be giuen to none but to God Marry that vvorship and adoration expressed in the former part of that sentence may be giuen to others and that Abraham gaue it very well vnto the people of Heth. Nowe our Sauiour had great reason not to yeeld so much as one jote of that meaner worship to Satan because he excelled him in nothing but small reason haue our Protestants to reason thus as in effect M. PER. doth Christ would not vvorship the Deuill therefore Christians may not worship Saints as though Saints were no more to be worshipped then the Deuill a holy comparison and vvell worthy a hell-hound But he goeth forward and addeth Act. 10. that Peter would not suffer Cornelius so much as to kneele to him though saith he Cornelius intended not to honour him as God therefore neither Saint nor Angell is to be honoured so much as with the bowing of the knee if it carry but the least signification of diuine honor Answere Doe you marke vvhat vvarre this man is at vvith himselfe first he saith that Cornelius intended not to adore Peter as God after headdeth that kneeling if it carry but the signification of Godly honour is not to be given to Saints which conclusion of his we grant to vvit that no inward or outward vvorship if it proceede from a hart meaning to exhibite diuine honour is to be giuen vnto any other then to God and therefore did I declare before that by the externall kinde of worshipping we cannot discerne whether the party meane to offer diuine religious or ciuill honour to him whome he honoureth but that is to be knowne of the party himselfe or by conjecture to be otherwise collected To the purpose if Cornelius meant to adore S. Peter as some petty God as S. Hierome gathereth out of the text Lib. contra Vigil which hath that he did adore S. Peter falling at his feete and S. Peter lifting him vp said arise my selfe also am a man then is there nothing against vs who doe also forbidde all men to adore and giue Godly honour vnto any Saint or Angell If it were a lesser kinde of religious worship which was due to Saints then we say with S. Chrysostome vpon this place that S. Peter out of his humility and consideration of humane frailty refused that honour albeit it vvere due vnto his excellent piety and singular authority The like answere is to be giuen vnto that place of the Apocalipse Cap. 19. vers 10. vvhere the Angell forbadde S. Iohn to adore him vvhich M. PER. had forgot to alleage For either S. Iohn tooke the Angell to be God as he spake in the person of God and so by mistaking the person offered him diuine honour Quaest 61 â—n Genes Greg. lib. 27. Moral c. 11. Bed Anselm alij in illum locum as S. Augustine supposeth and vvas justly reprehended by the Angell and instructed that he vvas not God but his fellowe seruant or as many others ancient and learned Authours thinke S. Iohn as one that very well knewe what he had to doe did dutifully worship such an heauenly creature as Gods Ambassadour to him for otherwise he was not so dull or forgetfull as to haue the * Cap. 22. vers 8. second time fallen into the same fault Neither did the Angell reprehend him but after a most curteous manner willed S. Iohn not to doe him that honour because he knewe well howe dearely beloued S. Iohn was vnto our Sauiour and that perhaps S. Iohn was to haue a higher seate in heauen then he had vvherefore he vvould not take that honour of so great a personage To these reasons of M. PER. vve may adde some fewe scraps of authorities which he hath swept together De vera relig 53. Augustine we honour the Saints with charity and not by seruitude neither doe we erect Churches to them And they are to be honoured for imitation but not to be adored with religion Answere Marke that in both the sentences he teacheth vs plainly to honour and worshippe the Saints as we doe honour the Saints they are to be honoured Marry he addeth as we also teach after him that no diuine and Godly honour be giuen them vvhich he describeth in those wordes with seruitude and with religion The Saints saith he euen here as in many other places of his learned vvorkes are to be vvorshipped but not vvith such worshippe as seruants or creatures owe to their soueraigne Lord or creator they are to be honoured but not with religion being taken precisely for the chiefe act of religion which concerneth only the honor and worshippe of God Churches are not to be builded to Saints nor Altars erected to them nor Sacrifice offered to them All this we graunt in such sort as S. Augustine himselfe doth declare that is these diuine offices are to be performed to no other then to God alone yet all may be done in the memory and to the honour of Saints Let this one place of S. Augustine serue the turne where
he saith Lib. 20. coÌ„t Faust cap. 21. that Christian people doe celebrate the memory of Martirs with religious solemnity both to stirre vp imitation as also tâ—â—â— they may be pertakers of their merits and helped by their prayers notwithsâ—â—â—ding saith he to none of the Martirs doe we erect Altars but to the God of Martirs yet in the remembrance of Martirs For who of the Priests in the places of their holy bodies standing at the Altar hath said at any time we offer vnto thee Peter or Paul or Cyprian But that which is offered is offered to God who crowned the Martirs at the memories of Martirs that by the admonition of the very places a greater deuotion may arise to enflame our charity both towardes them whome we must imitate as also towardes him by whose helpe we may imitate them We therefore worship the Martirs with that worship of loue and society wherewith holy men of God in this life are worshipped c. but them with so much more deuotion as we are more assured that they haue nowe passed all perill of this life Obserue good reader howe many points of the Catholike doctrine are confirmed by this one passage of so worthy a Doctor First Altars are built at the Martirs bodies Secondly Sacrifice is offered to God at the memories of the Martirs to encrease our loue towardes them Thirdly Martirs are to be worshipped of vs more then any holy men liuing Fourthly That with religious honour and celebrity they are to be worshipped yet not with any Godly honour as by Sacrifice erecting of Altars or building of Churches to them vvhich seeme to be the only externall actes of religion proper vnto God alone M. PERKINS second testimony is taken out of Epiphanius who commandeth that none be adored but God alone Let Mary be in honour Haeres 79. but let God only be adored Againe Mary is holy and to be honoured but not to adoration Answere Who seeth not that this holy Father teacheth vs to honour and worshippe that blessed Virgin Mary and the other Saints Marry not with Sacrifice as he there disputeth against them vvho offered Sacrifice to the Virgin Mary or any other such like adoration vvhich is proper to God alone A third testimony M. PER. produceth against himselfe out of S. Cyril when Iulian the Apostata objected against the auncient Catholikes that which Protestants doe against vs nowe a-dayes that they worshipped their Martirs as God Lib. 9. 10. Cyril saith M. PER. answereth then plainely as we Catholikes doe nowe that Christians indeede did honour their Martirs but not with adoration and Godly honour His wordes are We affirme not our Martirs to be made Gods but we vse to bestowe all honour vpon them In primuÌ„ cap. Rom. The fourth and last testimony is borrowed out of S. Ambrose Is any so madde that he will giue to the Earle the honour of a King yet these men doe not thinke themselues guilty who giue the honour of Gods name to a creature and leauing their Lord adore their fellowe seruants as though there were any thing more left for God Answere S. Ambrose there inueigheth as S. Paul doth against Pâ—â—â—â— Idolaters that gaue the glory of God some to men their fellowe seruants some to fowles some to serpents and such like all vvhich is very farre vvide from the marke of the present question For he that condemneth men for giuing Gods honour to foolish or beastly creatures doth not reprehend them which honour and worship Gods seruants with such honour only as is due to them And thus much in confutation of M. PER. reasons against worshipping of Saints nowe to an argument or two in fauour of the Catholike party All men are to be honoured by the lawe of nature with such honour as is correspondent and due vnto their vertue and dignity which the Apostle confirmeth saying Rom. 13. vers 7. render to all men their due c. to whome honour honour c. but a kinde of religious and supernaturall honour and worship is due vnto the Saints in heauen ergo we are bound to render that their due worship vnto them That religious honour is due vnto them is most cleare to all that know vvhy honour is due vnto any man If honour be due vnto Nobility of birth as it is commonly holden the Saints are the Sonnes of God the most honourable Lord of heauen and earth If to be admitted to be one of a Kinges priuy Councell maketh a man honourable then the Saints are honourable 1. Cor. 13. vers 12. Apocal. 2. vers 27. who as S. Paul saith doe see God face to face and knowe him euen as they are knowne If to be aduanced vnto some high gouernement make a man honourable the Martirs whome Christ doth place to rule over Cyties and Nations are honourable Briefly if excellent vvisdome singular valour and such like heroycall vertues make men honourable as all men confesse then are the Saints in heauen most honourable vvho so farre exceeded in all such heroycall vertues of which the Philosophers vvrite all others as farre as heauen surpasseth the earth so that it remaineth most euident that the Saints are to be worshipped And as their excellent vertues doe proceede from a more noble fountayne then the nature of man to wit from the grace of God and doth therefore without comparison furmount all morall and ciuill either vertue or dignity so are they with a more spirituall and religious kinde of worship to be vvorshipped and reuerenced It may be said that albeit the Saints be so very honourable yet because they be of another region they are not to be honoured by vs that be strangers and foraigners to them but this objection S. Paul hath long sithence preuented who saith expresly to Christians Bretheren yee are not guests and strangers but Cytizens of the Saints Ephes 2. and houshold seruants of God If then one Cytizen be to reuerence another his better and one seruant another then are we to worship the Saints in heauen who are our fellowe Cytizens and seruants yea they are members of the same body of Christ of which we are though they be nowe in triumph for their lawfull fighting here and we yet in warrefare to attayne vnto the same triumphant estate Yea for the deare and mutuall affection vvhich is or should be betweene these two partes of the said Church S. Paul calleth that Hierusalem which is aboue our Mother Gal. 4. vers 26. and ought vve not to reuerence honour and vvorship our Mother thus much of our former argument grounded in reason Nowe to another taken from example which alone is more then sufficient to settle any good Christian in the faith of this point thus it may be propounded Both Iewes Pagans and Heretikes that is all sortes of vngodly and misbeleeuing men did finde great fault with the auncient true Christians for worshipping of Saints and their Relikes and called it Idolatry as