he hath done it in his time Eusebius Doest thou think that there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory Theophilus To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things I will propounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off Mark then first the witnesse of the Apostle which saith writting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ that all those there hauing obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection without vs He saith not that they haue altogether receiued the promise For it was made first of all to them But he vnderstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same of which they haue not béene altogether depriued But they haue not had it so perfectly as we haue it nowe For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending he signifieth then that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie But the perfection was not yet nor shal be vntill the consuÌ„mation and restoring of all things For the terme of consuÌ„mation and perfection are relatiues the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning To which agréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church vnto whome the Lorde aunswered that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of their bretheren were fulfilled Eusebius make me to vnderstand that more clearely Theophilus Assone as we bâ—gin to knowe God in this worlde and to beléeue in Iesus Christ we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come But we haue not yet perfect ioy Yet neuerthelesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall goodnesse we grow from day to day from knowledge to knowledge from faith to faith from good to be better vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man to the fulnesse of Christ to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse Now if alreadie in this vale of misery our soule being charged with this terrestiall body shut vp and kept in the same as in a darke prison altogether wrapped in miseries sinnes and maledictions receiueth such consolation and ioy there is no doubt but that after that it is deliuered from that prison and captiâ—â—tie and hath put of all earthly corruption it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide I desâ—re to be losed and to be with Christ which thing is to â—e best of all And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir â—eâ—iâ—â—tie and perfect glorie vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie And that it be againe vnited wiâ—h it and seâ— God face to face and knowe him as we haue béene knowâ—â— of him then when he shal haue vanquished all things and shal be all in all For it is not yet appeared what we shal be but our life is hid in Iesus Christ Euen as then those which doe nowe depart out of this life haue not yet such ioy as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall appeare in glorie â—or to iudge all flesh when we shall all arise so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke that the auncient fathers which haue béene before the commâ—ng of Iesus Christ haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie before â—is resurrection as afterwarde For if the Angels themselues which alwayes doe behold the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righteous we must not doubt but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same howe great and admirable the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ sith that the angels themselues doâ— receiuâ— so great profite and increase in all goodnesse Thomas By what place of the holy scripture caâ—st thou proue that which thou speakest Theophilus They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter speaking of that matter saith that of the Prophets auncyent fathers that it hath béene reuealed vnto them y not to them selues but vnto vs they should administer the things the which saith he nowe are declared vnto you by them which haue declared the gospell by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde The Angelâ— had not that desire but that they did féele a greate goodnesse But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed to the health of men which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them neither are we also come therevnto For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which retâ—urneth vnto God also without all doubt sith that aboâ—e all things they do procure our helth and saluation it cannot be but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish Forasmuch then as their â—â—â—yâ—itie is ioyned with ours it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect For it is written expresly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde And the Apostle affirmeth that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodnesse of God the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges and princes in Christ and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe Therefore it is written that thorowe him all thinges are repaired and restored both in heauen and in earth Wherein the scripture teacheth vs that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues which had no sinne For euen as the fâ—ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them subiect vnto malediction with him so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also looâ—â—â—g for their redemption and deliuerance the which is ioyned together with his Nowe if the Angells cannot be
fire so neere the it kindled burned all Now whé they had found the nert day the goodly stur the they had made god knoweth what pitious lamctatioÌ„s wepings cryings ther was Tamus Ositis Adonis wer neuer so bewayled lameted They did sing other lamétatioÌ„s then those of Ieremy saying O how wicked are we al the world wil redeoche check us that we are worse then the Iewes For he was crucified among them but he hath bene burned amongest vs We must not bee abashed though they burne the Lutherians sith that they burne their god Yet neuerthelesse that ought not so seâ—me vnto them strange For they haue vsed it of long time and haue set and put a Canon among the Cautels of their Masse which commaundeth that when the hoast shal be rotten or mouldie in the pyr or that the wormes Spiders and Myce haue touched and eaten it that it should be burned and that the asshes should be â—ut in y reliquare or holy place The which thing was once obiected and propounded vnto a Priest amongst a great company of people in a house at Geneua But he was not asraid to absolue the question nor he was not so much offended in burning their God as those here For he aunswered directly if he suffred himself to be crucified of the Iewes cannot he suffer himselfe to be burned of vs Thomas The resolution was clarke like like a good Theologian But what was done in the end with these which burned it and suffred it to be burned Hillarius There was great debate betweene y Priests and the procurors of the Temple For the Priest did lay the fault vpon the procurors The procurors on the contrary confessed that they had the charge of the Temple but not of the body of God which would not suffer him to be touched and handled but of the Priests And said that although they had bene present yet they durst not take him from the fire Yet neuerthelesse I thinke that if they had séene that goodly sturre they should haue béene entorced to haue taken him out and would haue hadde some compassion of him They woulde haue done as Cecilius Metellus who seeing the fire kindled in the Temple of Vesta wherein was the Palladium in great daunger to be burned did cast himselfe in the middest of the slaming fire for to saue it or other wise it had bene burned as the holy hand-kerchiefe of Chambery Metellus made it agreat conscience to touch it with his hand bicause that it was not permitted to men to enter into that holy Reliquare nor to approch or come néere that holy Palladium but for the holye Virgins Vestals the Nonnes of Vesta But when he perceiued that they coulde doe nothing but wéepe without helpinge any thinge at all hée aduentured himselfe for to deliuer it from the fire the whiche dyd so burne his eyes that he dyd lose his sight Thomas What was that Palladium Hillarius An Image of the Goddesse Pallas the which the Panims beléeued to be fallen from heauen as Numa made them beléeue of his Ancyles and of other seducers of the Diana of the Ephesians It was brought from Troy and the Romaines had such an opinion that all the good hap and euil hap of their Empire depended vpon the same that it should alwayes flourish prosper all the while that they had that Image at Rome and that they dyd kéepe it well Therefore they kept it so diligentlye and all the counsell was amazed when they sawe the fire wythin hir Temple Theophilus The Priestes haue no lesse feare of their God of whome also dependeth all their dignitie and maiesty of their Empire Hillarius It is very true but they haue a remedye which the Romaines had not For if their Palladium had bene once burned they could not haue an other as those of Chambery haue done of their handkercheefe And Iupiter would not send them a new from heauen But the Priests doe make as many Gods as they lyst and make them to come downe from heauen when it pleaseth them But for to retourne to our matter after that that poore God was burned there was two great disputations The first was howe one myght discerne the asshes of the hoaste from those of hys Tabernacle Some held an opinion that one could not doe it others to the contrarye affirmed that the same was verye easye sayinge that God dyd that honour vnto hys bodye that the asshes of that shoulde bée whyter more softer and smoother Nowe when they had gathered together the smoothest and softest There was yet an other disputation more barder to wytte in what place they shoulde put those holy asshes For dyscussing of that matter they must holde a counsayle of the wysest and moste prudent men in the Citte of Castres in the house of Monser of Thaurines to the which was called master Iohn de Bosco a Iacopin a Doctour in diuinitie borne in Anaxerra who then preached that Lent at Castres There came also the Conuent of the Iacopins and olde reuerent father a teacher in diuinitie bringing wyth hym a booke which they called the third part of Sainct Thomas The opinyon of the greatest part was that those holy asshes should be put in the Reliquary Theophilus It was a newe practyse to bring money vnto the Priestes For on the one side their God had drawen hys parte and hys asshes from the other asshes Hillarius That was sufficient to heale their purses of Apostumes and to make them haue the flire in their bellyes But de Bosco counsayled them that they should not put that Reliquary in anye hye place for to auoide the daunger of committinge Idolatrye whiche myght come thereby For hée declared vnto them accordynge to their owne doctrine that the bodye of Christ was not burned but the Accidents and that those asshes were not of the bodye but of the accidentes Wherefore wée must not worshyppe them sith that the bodye is flowen an other waye Ercept they wyll yet kéepe him prysoner wythin the dust and asshes The which thing should séeme verye straunge and full of blasphemyes yea after the doctrine of the Schoolemen And therefore hée counsayled them for a clére resolution that they should bury those asshes behinde the hygh aulter in some darke corner and that they shoulde take héede they put not any title vpon it nor Epitaph as men doe vpon other sepulchres For it shoulde séeme very straunge to write heere lyeth the Lord Iesus or the asshes of the body of god For there is none so ignoraunt amonge the Christyans but knoweth that Iesus Christ hath not bene burned and that he lyeth no more in the sepulchre But that hée is raysed and ascended into heauen where hée is on the ryght hande of God hys Father from thence hée shall come to iudge both the quicke and the deade Wherefore one may say unto them as the Angell sayde vnto the women hée is risen hée is not
thoughte that manner of doing to be meruaylous straunge and would not beléeue it that ther wer people vpon the earth so inhumaine who had not great horrour and feare to eate the flesh of men But when I consider way the doings of our Priestes I finde the Scythians to be very humaine in comparison of them For they are not conteÌ„t to eate the dead onely but they eate both the quicke the dead not béeing content with y do also eate with them their wyues children parents friends with all their cheuances substance yet they cannot be suffised satisfied They make of their bodyes y sepulchers of the poore people whom they do englut and deuoure for to bury them more preciously in their bowels But you must not be abashed if they make of their bodies the sepulchers of the poore people as the Scythians did of their parents friends sith that they say that they are made dayly the sepulcher of Iesus Christ bicause they doe eate him dayly and bury him in their bodyes and entrayles The poore people haue then no iust occasion to complayne of their crueltie For they doe vnto them no worse then vnto their God if their doctrine be true but doe bury them as preciously honestly And hée that will not beléeue me let him read their booke which is intituled Stella Clericorum and he shall sée whether I lye or no but he shall there finde rather worse For it is there written sith that the Prieste is the sepulcher of Iesus Christe that if he doe presume to take the body of Iesus with his polluted mouth he doth worse then if he threwe it in the durte or mire But which is more he casteth it into a priuie Iudge therefore Eusebius whether that good God whom they haue forged be honestly lodged and whether he haue not a tombe and sepulcher very precious and according to his dignitie Eusebius If there are some wicked Priests who did vnreuerently handle Iesus Christ and who did dishonour their office must ye therfore despise the estate which is so worthy and excellent and blaspheame Iesus Christ in such sorte Hillarius When did you euer heare vs blaspheme Iesus Christ speake vnreuerently of god do you thinke ther is no differeÌ„ce betwene Iesus christ the true sauiour of y world As for me I finde as much difference as is betwen y true God of Israel the gods of the Babilonians and other Idolaters Wherfore if you will accuse me of blasphemy when I will not receiue those newe gods and that I speake in such sort you shall be also compelled to accuse the Prophets of the same crime when they doe so often mocke at the strange gods But wherefore are you not rather offended with them then with mée who haue not inueÌ„ted any thing but do speake only after them To what purpose doe they call the Priestes the Sepulcher of Iesus Christ Is not Iesus Christ risen agayne and ascended into heauen doth not the Apostle say Christ once raised from death dyeth no more For as much then as Iesus Christ liueth eternally at y right hand of god his father what needeth he of a sepâ—lohre especially of such as these are When he dyed for our sinnes he had his sepulchre in Hierusalem in which Ioseph of Aramathia and Nicodemus dyd bury him in They dyd not as the Scithians eate him fleshe and bones and bury him in their bellyes and entrayles But in a goodly new sepulchre hewen in stone The priestes then camibâ— saye that they are that sepulchre in which Iesus Christ was put and out of which he rose againe Wherefore if they be the sepulchres of Iesus Christ it must be that he is dead sithence and that he was buryed in theyr bellyes For I cannot vnderstande how he could be buryed if they haue not eaten him as the Scithians dyd eate theyr parents and friends And if you doe thinke that I tell you a thing that is strange consider and marke well the woords that the Apostle hath wrytten to the Hebrewes He witnesseth that Iesus Christ was once offered and he shal be no more Afterward telleth the cause For if he must be often offered he must dye often sith that there is no sacrifice without effusion of bloud Yet the priestes say that they doe offer and sacrifice really euery day Iesus Christ it followeth necessarily y either they do put him to death that he dyeth agayne or els y the holy Apostle is an euil Logicioner that he concludeth euilly knoweth not the rules and lawes of his Silogismes and consequences If it be so the Priestes may well be called the Sepulchers of Iesus Christ but not of the true Iesus Christ whom Saint Stephen did sée at the righte hande of God who as the Apostle witnesseth dyeth no more vnto whome I giue more credite then vnto all the Priests and Monkes which euer were or shall be And therefore eyther it must bée that they haue forged a newe Iesus Christ that dyeth and riseth agayne euery day and as often as they list and that they are all lyers or els that the Apostle hath written against the truth the which is impossible Wherefore it followeth that the first part of my proposition is true Eusebius Doe you not beléeue that the Priestes haue power to consecrate the body and bloude of Iesus and that they eate it flesh and bones as grose and as bigge as he was on the crosse Hillarius I doe aske you an other question wheÌ„ they haue eaten the flesh the bones what do thy with the skinne And how they could dine vpon Christmas day after that they haue eateÌ„ him thrée times For me thincketh they should haue their bellies too ful strouted Also wherefore doe you not demaund of me this question which is also very coÌ„mon among your deuines To weet whether Iesus Christ did eate himselfe Thomas What resolution doe they giue Hillarius That he did you may thereby know what reason there is in their doctrine Will you haue a more greater absurdite We do eate his flesh spiritually for to haue life But he who is the life what néede hath he to eat himselfe And if Iesus Christ did eat himselfe it must be that he hath two bodies the one which eateth and the other which was eaten O Lord God what dreams are these But if your Priests do eat the flesh and the bones they are worse then the Scithians For they were content with y flesh of man without eating the bones Neuerthelesse to the ende that you do not thincke that I will gainsay the word of Iesus Christ and that I am some Caparnaite who is offended with the preachinge that he made of eating his flesh and drincking his bloud or as the hearers who did forsake it I aunswere that there is thrée wayes to eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christ The
true manner the which he would teach vs by his worde and that hée would represent and frequent in the holy supper is spirituall and not carnall as he himselfe witnesseth sayinge It is the spirite that quickeneth the fleshe profiteth nothing The woordes that I haue sayde are spirite and lyfe Theophilus That is not ment that the fleshe of Iesus Christ doth not profite any thing the faithful sith y he himselfe calleth it the bread which came downe from heauen without which we cannot haue life nourishment nor saluation But the carnall sence and vnderstandinge of hys woordes and suche intelligence as the Capeâ—naites and hearers that were offended had is the fleshe eaten in such sorte as they vnderstande it For when wée shall haue the very fleshe of Iesus Christ in our mouth and that wée doe crashe it wyth our téeth and disgest it in our stomack it profiteth vs no more then to Iudas to haue kissed him and to the hangmen to haue touched him yea to bée sprinckled in hys bloude and to haue had his garmentes For Iesus Christ doth profite nothinge béeing knowen after the flesh except he be knowen through fayth by the whiche hée filleth and satisfieth vs also wyth his fleshe and bloude Therefore it is not néedefull that he discende from heauen nor y he remoue froÌ„ place to place for to feede vs in that manner wyth his fleshe and bloude and for to bée present wyth vs and in the middest of vs For he dwelleth in our heartes by fayth and lyueth in vs and quickeneth vs by his holy spirit Wherfore he calleth not the faythfull hys sepulchre but the temple of the liuing god For hée is not deade in the heartes of the faythfull but lyueth there and the faythfull by hym Euen as then the sunne is present wyth vs althoughe it descende not from heauen into the earth and maketh vs to féele hys vertue and power it illuminateth vs and through his heate and brightnesse nourisheth and quickeneth both man and beastes better then if it were héere in earth with vs euen so Iesus Christ that greate sonne of righteousnesse through his diuine power and vertue of his holye spirite doth gyue vnto our soules and bodyes hys flesh and his bloude and doth nourishe and fill vs and maketh vs to feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion and of his body and bloude that hée hath gyuen for vs better then if we did eate his flesh with our téeth and there dyd deuoure and swallow it in wyth his bloud in our stomacke insomuch that there is not a body which is so well nourished and fedde wyth bread and wine that hée eatcth and drincketh as the faythfull who with a true and liuely faith commeth vnto him and receyueth his woorde and communicateth the Sacramentes that he hath ordayned is filled and satisfied wyth his flesh and his bloude For hée hath sayde he that commeth to mée shall not hunger and he that beléeueth on mée shall neuer thurst If he that commeth and beléeueth in him shall no more hunger nor thurst it followeth then that in beléeuing and communicating his Sacramentes hée hath eaten and dronken and is satisfied Hillarius That sufficeth which you haue nowe spoken off friend Theophilus for to proue my meaning For we haue not at this present neyther better time nor fitter occasion for to pursue more fully that matter But I wil not graunt vnto thée Eusebius that the Priestes doe eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christe after that sorte For sith that they séeke his carnall presence they depriue themselues of his spiritual presence according to the witnesse of the Apostle which sayth Wée haue an Aulter whereoff they maye not eate whiche serue in the Tabernacle If those who doe serue in the Tabernacle of Moses and put yet all their affiaunce in the leuitical Ceremonies and sacrifices are shutte out and depriued from the true sacrifice of Iesus Christe what communion can those haue wyth hym who haue altogether ouerthrowen his Sacramentes and Ordinaunces and haue founde out and inuented newe sacrifices more intollerable then euer the Iewes vsed There is an other manner to eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christ the which I cannot graunt vnto them y is the carnall eating as the Caparnaites dyd vnderstande it euen as one eateth the fleshe of the butchery Iesus Christe whiche is at the ryght hande of God cannot bée eaten after that sorte For hée is the breade of Angels and of the true chyldren of God and of his shéepe and not of Dogges Wolues Hogges Lyons and wilde beastes But I wyll graunte vnto them the thirde manner to eate Iesus Christ and doe confesse wyth thée that they doe eate it truelye reallye and essentiallye not onely in flesh and bones but which is more least you shoulde accompte mée for an hereticke besides the flesh and bones they doe eate the skinne and breake the bones for to sucke out the marrowe that is therein bycause they haue founde suche good taste in the meate Thomas If they doe so they doe worse then the Iewes For they brake not a bone of Iesus Christ Theophilus That was bicause that it was necessarye that in him should be fulfilled which was figured represented by the pascall Lambe of which they must leaue his bones whole For we cannot haue Iesus Christ but that we must haue him whole his vertue power cannot be broken by death it selfe Thomas I haue not yet very wel vnderstood you Hillarius I will declare it vnto thée by a cléere demonstration by euident arguments Diddest thou not first confesse vnto me that all the true faithfull are the true members of Iesus Christ Thomas I confesse it Hillarius If they be members of Iesus Christ they are then his body of which he is y head as the Apostle doth witnesse in many places Thomas I doe agrée vnto you in that Hillarius Forasmuch then as the faithfull are the body of Iesus Christ you will also graunt mée that those which eate the faithfull and poore widowes orphants doe eate Iesus Christ And if you will denie it I will proue it by that that Iesus Christ sayd vnto Saul saying Saul Saul why persecutest thou me In the same manner then as Iesus Christ doth complaine himselfe to be persecuted wheÌ„ his members are So may I say without digressinge from the Scripture that those eate Iesus Christ that do eat his members Thomas But you haue not yet proued that the Priests doe eate the members of Iesus Christ Hillarius It hath ben alredy proued by the things that were spoken before For haue I not already tolde thée how they doo eate both the quicke dead But least thou shouldest thincke that I speake without the Scripture beholde his witnesse What doe you vnderstande by that rebuke and checke that God did vnto the tyrants and enemies of his people when he complained
y thou hast not forgotten it That followeth afterwards which thou hast said of y menseruaunts maidseruaunts which haue gone before vs with the signe of faith do rest in the sléep of peace Theophilus Thou séest already Eusebius for whoÌ„ they pray to wit for those of whoÌ„ S. Iohn speaketh off in the Apocalips which are dead in our Lord rest froÌ„ their labours For to dye in our Lord to go with y signe of faith to rest from their labours to rest in the sléepe of peace is all one And Clithoue himselfe is constrained to expounde those woordes by the same of Saint Iohn Wherefore thou maist know that they doe praye but for those which are already in Paradise For there are none other whiche doo rest in the sléepe of peace but those It followeth then that they doe also pray for y virgin Mary and for all the Saintes of Paradise Now let vs heare what thing they require for them Wée beséech thée that it would please thoe to graunt vnto them and vnto all those that rest in Christ place of comfort lyghte and peace If they rest in Iesus Christ are they not already in place of comfort lyght and peace Otherwyse I know not what it is to rest in Iesus Christe seeinge that it is written That although that the righteous be ouertaken wyth death yet shall he be in reste If they be in a fire as the wycked rich man of whom thou hast spoken that they doe burne as they make vs beléeue what difference is there betwéene them and the dampned Thou knowest very well that Lazarus who was in Abrahams bosome and who rested in the sléepe of peace bicause that he was departed from this world with the signe of faith that he had in the promises made vnto Abraham of the séede of blessednesse was in a place far differing from the other in which he rested in ioy pleasures and delights For if after that the faythfull be called fâ—oÌ„ this world he wero kept in the fire in what rest should he be froÌ„ his laboures Should he not be in worse estate then he was before Hillarius After that I haue laboured al the day haue much sweated it I must go into a furnase when I should go to bed for to rest my selfe in y same al night I woulde neuer go to bed Theophilus But where should be the promise of Iesus Christ who hath said so oftentimes Hée y beléeueth in me hath euerlasting life and shall not come into condempnation but hath passed from death vnto life And that which S. Paul saide now then there is no condempnation to thé that are in Christ Iesus which walke not after y flesh but after the spirit Eusebius That is not repugnant For those which are in purgatory are alredy assured that they shall not be dampned But they shal haue eternal life after y they haue satisfieâ— for their sins Theophilus Sith that there is such punishment it must néedes bée that it hath iudgement and condemnation For God punisheth not without iudgeing And I knowe not how wée can make y opinion agree with so many goodly promises which God hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and by all the holy Scriptures nor yet with that whiche the Priests themselues doe singe in the prose of the deade which beginneth Dies irae dies illa soluet seculum c. They doe say in a little verse O king of reuerent maiesty which sauest all soules freely From euill Lord deliuer me thou fountaine of all clemencie They céerely and plainely confesse that wée are saued through grace and doe vse thys aduerbe Gratis which signifieth froely and franckly Wherein they doe very well agrée to that which Sainct Paul witnesseth saying You are iustified fréely by his grace That is not then by our woorkes and satisfactions For then were grace no more grace I doe much meruayle how that good woorde escaped them Hillarius I thincke that the same chaunsed bicause of the rime for to make all rime in Atis. For in the first verse there is Rex tremende maiestatis And for to make all to be in Atis they haue sayd Qui saluandos saluas gratis Salua me sons pietatis Theophilus Now do those satisfactions agrée with that that the Lorde promised sayinge if the vngodlye will tourne away from all his sinnes that hée hath done they shall not be thought vppon any more Also though our sins shal be as red as scarlet purple or y worme that coÌ„meth out of the earth he will make them as white as woll the snow and will caste all our sinnes behinde his backe and wyll putte them as farre as Dauid witnesseth as the East is from the West and wyll cast them in the bottome of the sea Eusebius Wherefore then reserued he yet paines vnto Dauid after that the faulte was pardoned him insomuch that he was driuen from his kingdome by his owne sonne Absalom Wherefore punished chastised he him after that the Prophet Nathan had declared vnto him the remission of his sinne Theophilus When God chastised Dauid when he chastiseth vs euery day bicause of our sinnes he doth it not so much for the sinne which hath bene committed as for to aouertise and admonish vs that we do not sinne heereafter And the paine that we beare is not for to satisfie god For ther is none other satisfaction then the death passion of Iesus Christ that he can allow to be sufficient For if we must satisfie for our selues we must beare cary all the importable burthen of the wrath and iudgement of god Now if we must beare them there is none of vs but should haue his shoulders broken and should be plunged drowned in the goulfe bottome of hell with the Diuels For if the Angels could not beare it which of vs shall be sufficient which are but wormes of the earth And wherfore did God our good father send vs Iesus Christ to helpe vs but to that end that he would beare it satisfie for vs that thorow his satisfaction we should be reconciled vnto God deliuered from his iudgement Seing then that God our father hath the satisâ—action of Iesus Christ his sonne which is more then sufficient for vs all he requireth for vs none other satisfaction And if hee require good woorkes of vs he requireth them not for satisfaction for they are too insufficient But for prayses and giuing of thanckes and wytnesses of our faith of the remembraunce that wee haue of the benefites that hoe hathe gyuen vnto vs in his sonne Iesus Christ and for to incite our bretheren for to prayse and magniste hym Therefore sayde Iesus Christe vnto hys Dysciples Let your lyght so shine before men that they maye sée your good woorkes and glorifie your Father which is in heauen Hée sayde not to the
ende that by them you shoulde satisfie for your sinnes or that you shoulde merite the kingdome of heauen and bée iustyfied For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Iesus Christe whiche is our wisedome ryghteousnesse sanctification thorowe whose merite Paradise is gyuen vnto vs For that cause the holye Apostle calleth the eternall lyfe the gift of god Wherefore wée maye vnderstande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes but it is gyuen vs froelye thorowe Gods lyberalytie Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the sonne not for that he hath deserued it but bycause that hée pleased hym so for that hee loued him and that hée is hys chylde and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely Otherwyse grace shoulde bée no more grace but debte On the contrary when Saynct Paul did speako of the eternall death hée calleth it the wages of sinne declaringe thereby that man hathe well deserued it and that hée can deserue none other thinge but that that wages is due vnto hym for a recompence of the seruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell the Prince of this worlde euen as the wages which is payde vnto a souldyer for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne Wee 〈◊〉 then sée that the woorkes done by the chyldren of God and the seruice that the Angelles dooâ— vnto hym doe tende all vnto one ende to witte to glorifie GOD and to sanctyfie his name Euen as then the Angelles serue not GOD for to merite Paradyse of whiche they are alreadye in possession neyther for satisfaction of theire sinnes of whithe they are not entangled But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD and the desyre of hys glorye so Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge for they are alreadye washed and purged from theire sinnes by the bloudâ— of Iesus Christ and they re hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym And are already possessors of the kingdome of heaueÌ„ in hope the which is no lesse sure and certeine then if the thinge were present and that the Angels are assured of that that they haue Therefore the holy Apostle sayth that wee are saued thorowe hope and that Iesus Christ doth make vs sitte in the heauenly places And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect vs in this worlde that is as the Apostle also writeth vnto the Corinthians for to correct and chastise vs that we should not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels bicause that we are yet in the waye and capable of chastisment and ainendement But there is an other reason after thys lyfe héere when wee are out of the waye and néede and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend And therefore the Lorde doth chasten vs héere as the good Father who beateth not his sonne for to haue any recompence thereby for the faulte that hée hath committed For the paine of the childe bringeth no profite vnto the Father Also he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him For hée loueth him as his childe and the fatherly affection maketh him soone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him As it is cleerely shewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe Eusebius What hath the father then to do to chastise him Theophilus If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would soone pardon him without any punishment But fearing least thorow his great patience â— gentlenesse shoulde fall agayne hee is constrained to beate and chastise him although that he doe it not willingly but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyse and to better aduise himselfe in time to come and that he take diligent heede not to sall againe in y fault or in any other greater The which is no more to be feared in those whome GOD hath called from this worlde Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius punishment whiche shoulde be to câ—nâ—en them as is y same of the father towards his child for to amend him But if there hée a punishment it is rather to declare the iudgement the seuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates and to manyfest his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor murtherer and other malefactors that haue deserued death not for to haue any recompence nor those vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury For what recompence can they haue by their deathes neyther do they it for to cause them to walke in time to come more vprightly sith that they take from them their life But for to satisfie righteousnes and to mayntaine it to that end that other may take example and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eschewed vice Eusebius To what purpose then doth Sainct Iohn in his reuelation say Their works do follow them what workes do follow them but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death For those that they haue done whilest they lyued went before not after Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them Theophilus Sainct Iohn speaketh it bycause that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of god He sayth not other mens workes but theyr owne workes For as man lyueth of his owne soule and not of the soule of an other mans euen so doth the righteous man of his faith And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith not of the faith of an other euen so shal euery one be iudged according to his workes and not after those that other men shall doe For it is written Euery one shall beare his owne burthen And therefore Iesus Christ sayth by thy worde thou shalt bee iustified and by thy wordes thou shalt be condemned That is so saye thy wordes and thy workes shal beare witnes of thy heart and by them thou shalt bée iuslified that is to saye absolued declared and pronounced iust and righteous Oâ— by them thou shalt be condemâ—ned knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condeÌ„nation For he knoweth y hearts néedeth none other witnes but his owne But y scripture vseth such maÌ„ner of speaking for to apply it to our capacitie for to manifest declare vnto vs better the Iust IudgemeÌ„t of god which wil shew foorth y hâ—pecriâ—e of maÌ„ heart For maÌ„ how wicked soeuer his heart be he wold alwaies hide it if one put it to his own coÌ„â—câ—éce although y he do condemne it he wil not for y leaue off to aduasice brag he y le an honest man vntil such time as he he také with his wicked déed as y theefe with his steaâ—ing For he is so peruers wicked
fall into hell Or if they vnderstand it not so wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Masse for the dead Domine Iesu Christi c. That is to say O Lord Iesu Christ king of glory deliuer the soules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell and from the déepe lake Deliuer theÌ„ from the Lions mouth least the in hell he deuour theÌ„ lest the they fal not in the obscure dark places but the S. Michel the standard bearer do represent theÌ„ into the holy light which of late thou diddest promise vnto Abraham and to his seed Thomas Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vnto that which Eusebius hath spoken before and to that which the Priests do sing saying that in hell there is no raunsome nor delyuerance And yet nenerthelesse they pray here in that oâ—fertory vnto Iesus Christ that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell It must then needes follow that eyther their prayer is vaiue and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impossible and contrary vnto his will or that there is aswel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory and that they speake against themselues or els that hell Purgatory be al one thing Eusebius Thy disiunetiue is not good For not withstanding the commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampned yet neuerthelesse it may bee vnderstanded more amply for that low places and cositries the estate condicion of the dead after this manner his signification shall comprehende contrine also the Purgatory as it doth in this place here Hillarius We muste then expounde it of the paines of hell that is to say of the paines of Purgatory Eusebius It cannot be vnderstanded otherwise Thomas And what shall we vnderstand by the deepe lake Eusebius The very same Thomas There is then also a lake in Purgatory Hillarius You do well Thomas to be affrayd Did you neuer here before how the priests did pay the seriage for to haue the dead passe ouer It is then necessarye the they haue their fery man Charon for to let passe repasse the soules aswel as the Panims Poets had Now if there be a Charon a fery man he caÌ„not carry ouer soules without the there is seas lakes or ryuers for to caryhis boats scyfes ships barkes gallies Thomas But I am greatly abashed wherfore wée do call those that dye in the french tongue trespasses Thinke that it was bicause that they were already passed from this life in the other But as farre as I can perceiue it is rather bicause that they haue passed ouer those infernall lakes and reuers Hillarius I doe beléeue that the Christians and true faithfull people haue called their dead trespasses signifiyng by that same that the death of the faithfull is no death but only a passage for to enter into life those which are dead in the faith of Iesus Christ according to his promises are passed from death to life And therfore they are rightly called trespasses bicause the they are already passed ouer are come vnto the port of health in which they rest in ioy and consolation w Iesus Christ their Lorde hauing escaped all the dauÌ„gers the great gculfes of the sea of this world of sinne death hell But sithence the the pope hath begun to reign in stéed of Iesus Christ the he hath take the office of Pluto the god of hel of Eacus Minos Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus the infernal iudges as a newe king hée would chauÌ„ge the laws estates habitations maÌ„ners of huing of his subiects the be dead aswel as of those y be aliue endeuoreth himselfe w all his power strength to abolish put out the laws ordinances institutions holy CanoÌ„s inuiolated decrées which Iesus Christ hath giuen aswel to the liuing as to the dead by his prophets apostles passed confirmed ratefied sealed by the arrest of the celestiall beauenly court by the great counsell wisedome of god of the holy trinitie of the father the sonne the holy ghost of all the angels archangels Saincts Sainctes patriarkes apostles Euangelists Martirs Confessors Mirgins to the end y the faithful without any other should haue place in heauen in earth in hell Theophilus He woulde do vnto Iesus Christ as the Romaine Emperors the Popes haue done many times the one against the other making frustrate boyd the which their predecessors haue made ordeined For in asmuch as they haue made Iesus Christ the first pope S. Peter the seconde I thinke the it seemeth good vnto theÌ„ the aswell they maye abrogate make boide their ordinances as they haue done those of other Popes their predecessors changing most ofceÌ„ times the that the first haue ordeyned making frustrate their counsels decrées especially sithence the time of pope Stephen who made boide al the which Formosus his predecessor had don But they do in that great wrong vnto Iesus Christ that sitheÌ„ce he is risen againe there are so many popes risen vp in his place For they wil not suffer that one should choose another whilst they are aliue or if that be done they call him antipope the is chosen in spite of their bearde and hold for scisinaticks aswel him as those that haue chosen him which are Ioyned w him They call him antipope who setteth himself against him wheÌ„ they estéeme to be the true pope eue as we set antichrist against Christ Sith theÌ„ the Iesus Christ is rise froÌ„ death he is immortal shall dye no more but shal abiee dwel eternally with his churche of which he is the only head according to y promise y hee hath made to his disciples saying beld I am with you vntill the ende of the world For asmuch also as that great heaâ—â—nly father of whom proceedeth all fatherly loue y is called y olde aged of whom Daniel speaketh off he hath giuen vnto him al iudgment power seigniory both in heauen in earth hath made him to be called by his prophet the father of the world to come Prince of peace willing y in y name of Iesus should euery knee how both of things in heauen things in earth and thinges vnder the earth I am greatly abashed froÌ„ whence this ouer boldnes rashnes should proceed to create those other popes then he sith y he is alwayes aliue y he is the Lord of y quick and of the dead and his kingdome hath nene ende Hillarius They cannot denie but that they are al Antipopes That is to say contrary and enemies to the true Hope so consequently heritickes and schismatickes For sith y Iesus Christ is the true Christ true Pope that is to say the father of y Christian Church it followeth that they are Antichrists
As muche did they in like manner vnto Isis and Cible whom you wil bring all into the Christianitie vnder the title of that good virgin And not béeing contented with the yée do adde yet Iuno Sospita vnto whom the title was giueÌ„ bicause that the Panims did attribute vnto hir the vertue to heale saue men For Sospita signifieth asmuch as a saueresse or woman sauer Therefore al those the were sicke or diseased did call vpon hir with Iupiter the sauiour Iesus Christ is not sufficient for you for a sauiour except you do adde a saueresse or a woman sauiour It is not sufficient for you to haue him for a Porter and key bearer in heauen but yee must ioyne to him a shee porter and shée key keeper to the end that we should haue the Goddesse Carua aswell as the Panims had vnto whom Ouid giueth such power as you do giue in that prose vnto your newe Uirgin Mary the whiche you haue forged and made of your owne minde For shée which was the Mother of Iesus would not commit sacriledge for to steale from Iesus Christ hir sonne the honour whiche to him alone apperteyneth But marke well whether the verse of Ouid speaking of the Goddesse Carua doth euill agrée with your prose Through hir great force and mighty power that which is close and shet Shee doth set ope and shut againe without any mans let Furthermore you apply hir to you purpose as they did the Goddesse whom they did call Muete and the Goddesse Palis For after that they had ended that that belongeth vnto the dead they did also make a magicall sacrifice to the Goddesse Muete to which they did put inceÌ„ce war beanes other like things they did think the it had vertue against their enemies for to kéepe theÌ„ chiefly for to stop the mouth of the euill speakers and backebiters Thomas The poore priests shoulde haue neede to make such sacrifices against you for to bridle your mad tongues to stop your mouths Hillarius They haue the Agnus Dei of war which the Pope blesseth the great Satterday which ought to haue that vertue Theophilus They néed none other sacrifice then to to be good people of good doctrine a holy life and duely to exercise the office of shepheardes as the true disciples ministers of Iesus Christe they shal easely tye the tongue of all backbiters euil speakers or they shal do at y least that it shal not hurt them that those which now do speake euil shal finde themselues lyers if they perseuer continue in it Hillarius Yet there remaineth the feast of Palis the Goddesse of the Shepheards in the whiche also they did make the purging fires and the shepheards did leape vpon the flames thinking that by those fires they wer purified I think y of that custome came y fires of Saint Brandons for those that were new maried and those of Sainct Iohn afterwardes in that same feaste they made persumes besides the holy asshes of which we haue already inademeÌ„tion off and of the holy water aswell for to purge the men as the beasts and did make sprinklings vpon them for to â—éepe them from euillâ— The which ceremonies Ourd hath all comprised in these vestek And surely I my selfe in hande the sacnfice did take The beme stalke and the asshes which the burned Calues did make And thrice I past the firy slames in order placed there Which all be sprinkled with the dew of droppong Lautell were And of the perfumes in that same booke he saith Perfumes from virgins alter fetch which Vesta will giue thee For by the vetâ—ue of hir gift thou purified shalt bee Thy pertumes shall be Horses bloud And asshes of a Calfe The third thing them shall be the stalkes of beanes for that behalfe Let shephearde then make sacrifice at dawning of the day Let him cast wateron the earth and sweepe the dust away Then sheepefoldes trymly let be deckt with boughes and brauncues greene And let their wreathes and garlauds gay vppon the doores be seene Let blewish smoke likewise be made of Brimstone good and fine And let the Sheepe smeerd with the smoke his bleating voyce resigne Male Olyues then with fire consume the Iuniper and Pine And let the Laurel crackelyng leaues be burnt in chimney thine You haue also the torches and holy Candells and the encensings and perfumes your holy asshes which you giue the first day of Lent and you haue alwayes your holy water ready and your holy torches as remedyes agaynst all diseases and daungers of men and of beastes and ye doe giue and vowe them vnto the Virgin Mary and to the Saynts and Sayntes as they did to the Goddesse Pales which had the charge of the beastes Eusebius Is that a thing contrarye vnto the word of God to put holy asshes on the foreheads of the Christians for to admonish then of their mortail condition and fragilitie to the ende that man ddoe remember that hée is but dust earth and asshes and to the earth shall retourne agayne Is not that a good aduertisement for to abate the pride and arroganicie of man and to prepare hym vnto death and to the iudgement of God And afterwardes how many places of the holy Scripture are there which doe exhorte vs to humble our selues before God with fackecloth and asshes And of examples of the seruaunts of God which haue done the lyke But you wyll not consider those places but you had rather to speake euill of it and to referre it to the Panims Theophilus I denye not but that the auncient and true seruauntes of God haue done peuaunee fasted and prayed wyth fackecloth and asshes but howe doth that that they dyd agrée with that that you doe Hillarius As much as is betwéene the worke of a man and of an Ape Theophilus It is no lye For that which the auncientes dyd they did it wyth a good heart and not by outward gestures They dyd retourne againe vnto God by true repentaunce confession of their sinnes and amendement of lyfe They made no Shrofeside nor dyd burste themselues wyth eatinge and drinckinge They dyd not giue themselues to all dyssolutions fot to goe the nexte daye to haue a fewe afshes put vppon their foreheades as though they woulde playe a Maske or a Iest and to mocke wyth God and wyth men Thery absteyned not onely from certeyne meates vntyll noone for to stuffe and fill themsclues afterwardes wyth other meates and to eate vntill they burst But they absteyned first form vice and sinne and afterwardes from all pleasures delyghtes and pompes They absteyned from eatinge and drindcking all a daye vntill night and sometyme continued their prayers vntill two of theire owne voluntarye wyll and good heart when they dyd knowe that it was erpedient for them so to doe or for to macerate and chastice theire bodye or when they dyd sée
canon which was made But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians the which yet neuerthelesse the Papists themselues doe not allow no more then that which S. Cyprian Origene did which did distribute the supper vnto young children when their fathers and mothers brought them in their armes in comming to communicate the same And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade but also the cup. Now let vs thinke if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there what may chaunce afterwards For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and passion of Iesus Christ two hundreth and fiftie Those worthy men would not haue so much attributed vnto the Sacraments if they had not so much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Iesus Christ Of the like beginning came vp the error of those which estéemed thought the he which after that he was baptised hauing once receiued the supper could neuer be damned or at the least should be once delyuered from damnation bicause that Iesus Christ hath said I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen if anyman eate of this bread hée shall liue for euer They vrge vpon the letter said that Iesus Christ could not lye which hath promised the same Yet neuertheles Sainct Augustine rebuketh confuteth their errour Beholde y absurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter For whosoeuer wil according to the opinion which the Papistes haue of the Sacrament of the alter take litterally y which Iesus Christ said of eating of his flesh drinking his bloud there is no doubt but that we shall be constrayned to confesse that all those which haue once taken the supper are all saued and y all those which shall not once receiue it are all damned And so it shal be no lesse requisite to giue y supper vnto the young childrē to giue power vnto womē to giue it them then y baptisme they y would take the words those matters by y rigor And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged by the absurdities which should follow of thy expositiō the which do repugne against the grace of Iesus Christ as I haue declared vnto thee thou maist wel know that we must not vnderstand that place after that manner as thou doest expounde it For Iesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptisme nor of his institution But speaketh of the regeneration of man and sheweth what thing he must haue for to be a Christian to wit that it is necessary that he doe renounce forsake his first generation natiuitie which is altogether corrupted and cursed and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God and thorowe the incorruptible séede of his woorde insomuch that he is made a newe creature bearinge the Image of Iesus Christ the true celestiall Adam euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terrestriall Adam And therefore hath hée sayd Except a man be borne from aboue or a new be cannot sée the kingdome of god And after he expoundeth it by the other proposition following which signifieth none other thing then that which hée hath already sayd before For to be borne from aboue or to bée borne againe and to be borne of water and the holy Ghost are equiualent manners of speakings And the two propositions of Iesus Christ are equipolent y one to the other ther is none other difference sauing that y last is more ample and expoundeth the first For sith that our first natiuitie is carnal it must be y the second be spirituall Sith that the first man is of the earth earthly it is requisite that the second which is from heauen be heauenly and spirituall Now that regeneration transformation cannot be made but by the spirite of god For as it is written in that same place That which is borne of the flesh is flesh That that is borne of the spirit is spirit And therefore Iesus Christ willing to expoūd vnto Nicodemus y which he had said before Except y a man be borne frō aboue or a new he cannot see the kingdome of God Afterwardes saith which shall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghost bicause that the holy Ghost author of that regeneration is giuen from aboue which worketh a secōd natiuitie in vs which is celestiall and spirituall Eusebius But what néeded it to adde the water was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost Theophilus Wherefore hath Iohn Baptist sayd speaking of the ministry of Iesus Christ That he would baptise with the holye Ghoste and with fire what néeded it sith that he named the holy Ghost to adde vnto it the fire Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptisme of the fire as some do say that some Christians which are amongst y Indians Aethiopians Persians do who for that cause did vse the fire for baptisme of the fire Eusebius One may well perceiue there that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore and that he vnderstandeth no other thing by the fire then the holy Ghost of whom he hath already spokē the better to expound the nature of the same for as the fire is pure cleane and cannot suffer any spot or filth but purgeth maketh cleane illuminateth the consciences enflameth them to the loue of god For which cause he was sent vnto y Apostles in y liknes of tongues of fire the which S. Iohn did foresée forespeak off vsing such wordes Theophilus Thy exposition doth please me very much Wherefore if thou makest it no difficultie to take in that place the fire for the spirit of God for more ample expositiō of his nature properties wherfore oughtest thou to make a doubt to take y water in that place for that same signification séeing y agréeing y the water hath with the nature of y holy Ghost For there is no lesse reason but a great deale more appearance For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghost first the fire afterwards Wherfore it séemeth either that he vnderstandeth two thinges seperated or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere by a more darker thing Although that thy aunswere doth sufficiently satisfye that obiection But in that place Iesus Christ putteth y water first afterwards as if hée would expound his Metaphore and comparison and giue vnto it more greater brightnesse he declareth what he would signifie by that water to wit the holy Ghost vnto whom he giueth that name for many causes First bicause that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane and so necessary vnto mans life that it is impossible for men to lack it so is it of y water the which is also by nature cléere pure and
Annallogie of the faith that none can speake against it except he do loue rather to contende and striue thorowe obstination then to content himselfe with reason And if thou doe diligently consider and well way that which hath béene aunswered vnto thée thou mâ—ist profite by it many wayes For by the same thou maist knowe what ought to be the vse of the sacraments what ought to be the true baptisme and the true regeneration of a Christian If thou dost vnderstande that thou shall bée 〈◊〉 more in doubt nor in 〈◊〉 of the younge Infantâ—â— which dye without baptisme But wylt leaue them in the handes of God and 〈◊〉 reforâ—e all vnto his mercy And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe thâ—â— shalt also knowe the 〈◊〉 oâ— those which doe carie their children that are borâ—â— dead 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they dyd in that 〈◊〉 vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of grace of Geneua or vnto our 〈◊〉 of Lauâ—anne Thomas They did also cary them vnto the holye crosse and vnto our Ladye of Butter Hillarius Ther 〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Chéese 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Butter the whiche is nowe altogether 〈◊〉 Wâ—â— shoulde haue but a little iudgement if wée â—â—â—we not those great abuses and to iudge of those false 〈◊〉 Further more by thâ—se same reasons thou maist iudge of the 〈◊〉 of those which doe giue authoritie vnto the wise and 〈◊〉 â—â—emon to baptisâ— the younge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 daunger of 〈◊〉 Eusebius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there in that Hillanius Thâ—◠〈…〉 can tell thée Theophâ—â—â—â— There is first of all this euill that those that require such baptisme are of an opinion that it is so necessary vnto 〈◊〉 that without the same their childe cannot be saned Wherein they doe 〈◊〉 vnto the grace of Iesus Christ and doe presume 〈◊〉 of the vertue of his holy spirite and do render publicke and open witnesse of their superstition and infidelitie Againe they sinne in that that they doe dishonour the Sacramentes when they giue and bestowe them vnto others then vnto those vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to administer them Wherefore they cannot fayle either on the one side or on the other but that they are greatly to bée rebuked For if they doe adde to it necessitie it appeareth already into what errour they are If they saye that they doe not put to it necessitie and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes and exteriour ministrie wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie vnto woemen without the word of God Wherefore doo they take any other 〈◊〉 then the same which is giuen them of Iesus Christ Wherefore doe they seperate that which God hath ioyned together For the baptisme the administration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 be seperated without ouer throwing the ornaâ— which Iesus Christ hath put and set in his Church Nowe euen as the institution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the ministrie of the Gospel so ought they to be administred publyckly in the Church by those selfe same vnto whome the ministrie of the Gospel is committed and which of God and of the same are â—lected pastorâ— and ministers And therefore Iesus Christ hath not giuen charge to baptise vnto others then vnto those vnto whom he hath commaunded to preach his gospel to exercise the Euangelicall ministrie in his Church For it is expreâ—â—y forbidden woemen to speake in the Church and to vsurpe vpon them any ecclesiastical office the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen yet not vnto all indifferâ—â—ly but vnto those which are elected lawefully ordeyned to the same the which he doth sufficiently declare when he coÌ„maunded by his Apostle y all things should be done honestly in order For if in y â— â—â—uile administration order be required that it is not lawful to exercise y offices but to the officers dâ— we thinke y Iesus Christ requireth lesse in the ecclesiasticall policie and that hée will suffer that the same that he hath set should be ouerthrowen Those then that will allow the baptisme of women ought first to shew in what place God hath ordeyned it what witnesse or example of the Scripture they haue If that is wantinge them as I am well assured that it is they shall bée constrayned to confesse that that baptisme is giuen wythout fayth and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of god If then it haue not the word of God it can haue no faith If it haue no fayth it is then sinne For all that whiche is done without fayth is sinne We maye then aske them euen as Iesus Christ asked the Pharises touching the baptisme of Iohn Baptist to witte whether it were from heauen or of men Also in lyke manner that baptisme of woemen whether it be of God or of men If they answere y it â—◠〈◊〉 God where are the witnesses of the Scripture Iâ— they answere it is of men as they shall 〈◊〉 constrayneâ— to say they shal be compelled to confesse that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God â—â—th that Iesus Christ directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God declaring thereby that that which is not of the one is of his coÌ„trary I cannot then conclude but that that baptisme is procéeded of any other but of the aduersary of God which would aduance women vnto the ministerie and ecclesiasticall offices from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it for to declare themselues in all thinges contrarye vnto god Euen so hath hée done amonge the Paâ—â—ms which haue vsed woemen Priestes And amonge the heretickes Martionistes who with their master Martion haue permitted woemen to baptyse as Epiphanius wytnesseth Beholde the examples witnesses which you may haue for your baptisme of women Eusebius I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou sayest as touching the publyke office and hauinge no necessytie For the Councells Canons and auncient Doctours doe not saye much lesse but doe witnesse playnelye that it is not lawfull for anye person to baptise but vnto the Ministers of the Church as the Bishoppes and Priestes doe But they doe vnderstande the same when there is no extraordinarye necessitie and daunger of death For in such case they doe dispence and permit to doe it not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men but in like mannâ—r â—nto women Theophilus Wée doe not dispute of that which men do permit but of that which god hath coÌ„maunded I finde no necessitie but wheÌ„ God giueth vs y means that ther may be falt in vs Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme thâ—selues with y authoritie of men in this matter yet wée will proue that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for vâ— For first of all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 that â—â—er Iesus Christ hath sayd â—â—to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and baptise Wherefore
colde coniectures Nowe Iesus Christ who is the infallible veritie woulde not that we should builde the articles of our fayth vppon coniectures but vpon the expresse veritie For sith that he and his Apostles doe witnesse that they haue manâ—fested all that which was necessary to our saluation hath commended to vs so much the loue towards our bretheren it is not lyke to be true but is repugnant to the witnesse of Iesus Christ that they haue spoken vnto vs so obscurely haue giuen vnto vs onely some coniectures of this matter and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead the which the Priestes doe wrest it more then that which is due vnto those that be liuing Hillarius Bicause that Iesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely therefore they would make commentaries gloses for to declare it bicause that it bringeth vnto them more profit Thomas Thou hast opened a place Theophilus of which I would gladly be resolued that is to say of the preaching to the dead For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed mused after it bicause that I considered y according to the witnesse of the Scripture nâ—ne can haue saluation but thorowe the faith in Iesus Christ Now if we do compare those which haue knowne Iesus Christ and haue beleeued in him with those which haue not beleeued and which haue neuer hard him speake the number of those here shal be very little in respect of others Wherefore it followeth that there should be a meruaâ—lous number of the damned that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigor iudgement Now it is straunge to mans reason to iudge that God will dampne so many chieâ—â—y sith y he hath had as many which haue not known Iesus Christ for want that one hath not shewed him vnto them Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those héere is not much out of reason And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it for I will accord and agrée almost sooner to that then to the opinion of Purgatory Theophilus Thou hast moued a question the whiche cannot be expressed and absolued in few wordes For we must first declare what knowledge of Iesus Christ is necessary vnto saluation and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world among all people nations And how it hath ben sufficiently manifested vnto the elect for their saluation to the reprobate for their condempnation Insomuch that they are all inexcusable they cannot alledge ignorance sufficient for to excuse them And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time that we maye speake more amply of it and better to satisfie the question which is made dayly touching the saluation or dampnation of our predecessors which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce Yet neuerthelesse bicause that the places which we haue accustomed to alledge for y preaching to the dead may also serue to the matter at this present time I am contented y we do entreat of them for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the same nor the Limbe nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make theÌ„ serue But for that that it may be that Eusebus doth put them foorth amongst his defenses it were better that we do delay that matter vntil such time as he bringeth it in by course in following his matter by order or if be do it not thou maist put me in remembrance Thomas Yet neuerthelesse before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open I wil propound vnto him an argument concerning the point of which we haue entreated off that is to say of the remission forgiuenes of sinnes in the other world Whervpon I demaund of thée Eusebius when Iesus Christ did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church as wel in y person of S. Peter as vnto al y church generally that he declare the power of them of the ecclesiastical ministry hath he not sayd namely That which thou shalt binde in earth shall be bound in heauen that which thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen He sayth not That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde in heauen or in Purgatory or in hell or in the other world or in the other life and in an other earth but speaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen in the which the Euangelical ministry hath his vigor and strength I wil not reiterate that that you said of the forgiuenes of fault paine For al that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that haue receiued the power of him doe verye euill vnderstand their office willing to extend and stretch the power of their keyes pardons and indulgences vnto the other world and vnto the dead which haue their estate a part and seperated from ours and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth which hath not to regard but on the liuing Eusebius Alexander of Ales Gabriel Biel haue very wel satisfied y obiectioÌ„ For they do answere y the dead ought to be accoÌ„pted to be yet vpoÌ„ the earth as touching y absolutioÌ„ or ligatioÌ„ binding or vnbinding vntil y they are passed entred into the kingdome of heauen For whilest y the soules are in purgatory they are vpon the earth sith that they are not yet in heaueÌ„ that they are yet of the Church militant not of y triumphaÌ„t Furthermore euen as those which are in the earth are yet in the way and not at the end full marke so are those which are deteined in Purgatory They are in passing for to goe to the countrey as touching the purgation by the which they are purged passe to the country as by y way Although y they are at the ende marke as touching the confirmation For they can no more sinne nor merit Furthermore all the while that they are ayded receiue comfort of the temporall earthly goods by prayers one may well holde accompt them for to be yet of this world sith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there Hillarius He will accompt then of the dead as of the Monkes which are dead to the world in some pointes but not in other some They are dead to the world as to that that they doe serue and profit no person no more then the dead But they are not dead as to eating and drinking and to other carnall workes For in y there is not a people which doe better liue in the world nor which are more of the world Euen so shall it be of the dead They shal be dead to vs for to giue vs
any more ayde and succour But they shal not be dead for to hurt vs and to eate consume our goods and substaunce It is said in a common prouerb That the dead do not bite But there are none liuing more biting then such dead men except the Priests and Monks which do become vnto vs so biting for to bite vs vnder the name and title of them Theophilus The Pope aduaunceth himselfe to be the liuetenant of S. Peter But wherefore doth he attribute vnto himselfe the office of S. Peter Eusebius Bicause that S. Peter can no more execute it Theophilus Wherefore can he no more exercise execute it Eusebius Bicause y he is no more conuersant among the liuing and bicause he hath ended finished his course and hath ended his ministry among men Theophilus Thou commest nowe to the matter If then Saint Peter hath not belowe the Heauen power to absolue vs nor they of the other worlde those which are in this heere how shall the Pope haue more power for so absolue belowe the earth and they of this world those which are in the other Sith that he attributeth vnto himselfe the office of saint Peter for that that Saint Peter is absent from those that are liuinge wherefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not content himselfe with the liuinge What hath he to doe with the dead If in the other world there be an premission of sinnes and the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 take place wherefore doth he not leaue 〈◊〉 of the same vnto Saint Peter and to the Prophets Apostles Martyrs and confessors which are there For if it bée néedfull to pardon sinnes to the dead in the other world those which are there present and know their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they not better doe it then the Pope 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which 〈◊〉 â—â—â—sent and altogether ignoraunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 estate and condition They say that they cannot pardon sinnes to those that be aliue nor absolue them except they confesse themselues vnto them â—â—â— to know and iudge of thâ—m how can they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and giue 〈◊〉 vnto the soules of the dead 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 confession nor know whether they be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or not whether they be deâ—eined â— hell 〈◊〉 Purgatorye or already passed and arriued into 〈◊〉 I 〈◊〉 thincke that a liuetenant is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the place of an other which cannot 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 propâ—â— person Then if the Pope be the 〈◊〉 of Saint Peter in this world bicause that S. Peter is no more héere howe can he be his liuetenaunt in the other world in which Saint Peter is and he is not Beholde a sort of liuetenauntes the most straungest that euer was in the world For in stéed to holde and kepe the place in which they ought to be prâ—sent in the name of those that are absent they béeing absent would holde the place in which they cannot be in the name of those which are there present Wherefore I would counsayle the Pope and his to let the dead alone from hencesoorth and to meddle no more with them and that they doe leaue the charge vnto Sainâ—t Peter and to the other Apostles and Saintes which are with them Hillarius If Iesus Christ hath sayd vnto one of his Disciples let the dead bury theâ— dead we may well say vnto those héere let y dead absolue y dead be you careful but for those that be tiâ—ing For I doe assure them that they shall haue inough to doe to gouerne the liuing they shal â—nde themselues more â—indled letted then they thinke and more then they would Wherefore I beléeue that they shall be forced to let the deade alâ—ne and to leaue all the charge vnto Saint Peter and vnto his compaignions or for to speake better 〈◊〉 God which hath both the quick and the dead in his 〈◊〉 Wherefore wée haue no néede to â—â—menâ— neither the quicke nor the â—end vnto y Saints nor Saintes â—ut 〈◊〉 vnto the Lord Iesus who is the Iudge and Sauiour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Pope sayth also that he is 〈◊〉 I know not what shall be his Church For if the Pope be liuetenaunt of Iesus Christ and the office of a 〈◊〉 is â—o holde the place of him that is absent it followâ—â—â— then that Iâ—suâ— Christ iâ— not in the Popish Church but h◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 And so by that meanes the Popish Church shal be without Iesus Christ 〈◊〉 without god Then of necessitie it must be that the Diuell 〈◊〉 and that be is the â—ead and the God as be is the God of this wâ—â—ld For in the Christian Church Iesus Christ hath no néede of a â—â—â—ar neither liuetenant sith that he 〈◊〉 alwayes present and that he hath promised to be in the middest of his Disciples and with them vntill the â—nde of the world Except we will call his â—uly spirit his â—ear after the imitation of Tertulian bicause that it râ—igneth in vs by him and qiutheneth vs â—husebius Mee thinketh that no reason can perswade â—â—â— For the aunswere 〈◊〉 I haue alledged vnto you of Alexander of Ales hath already satisfied all your obiections and replyings 〈◊〉 although that S. Peter and the Apostles are in the other world they are not therefore in Purgatory Wherefore their ministrie their power of their â—eyes cannot be stretched pulled out the â—her but are in heauâ— in which ther is no more néede Theophilus Also â—â— more is the Pope neither the priests I know not whether that their key be longer then that of Saint Peter or whether that there were more space from the heauen vnto Purgatory then from y earth Hillarius But how knowest thou whether that Sainâ— Peter hath caryed his key with him or 〈◊〉 For if the Pope haue it Saint Peter hath it no more Theophilus Saint Peter had two names and was called before Symon Now I beléeue in déede that the Pope may haue the keyes of Symon not of Simon Peter but of Simon Magus the which argée not with the true â—oore which is Iesus Christ nor with the true locke which is the word of God the which is â—â—â—o the true key of knowledge for to open vnto vs the kingdome of heauen Thomas He hath then chaunged the key Theophilus There is nothing truer Thomas And his to what doore doth it agrée Hillarius Vnto that of the cofers â— scrips for to stuffe and fill them Thomas Then Purgatory is in our purses Hillarius We haue sufficiently preâ—ed it For they haue so well purged vs that thou wilâ— say that they are made of the 〈◊〉 of the Dâ—â—ell For any one crosse may not â—ary in it where that Purgatory is Thomas It must be called then from hencefoorth Pagâ—tory or purge purse Now if the Purgatory be so â—â—e it is not now néedfall that the key be too long for to open it But whatsoeuer it be the Popes haue ben y subtilest lockyers the
many do affirme by the commaundement of his owne sonne who secretly sent vnto him the hangman And therfore for that he dyed excommunicated hée was not buryed in the holy ground vntil that he was absolued and deliuered from his excoÌ„municating after his death by y pope by y meanes of which absolution hée was caried to Spire to the sepulchre of his fathers Wilt thou now deny that the pope hath not more power then the Saintes that he is not greater Lord then Iesus Christ asmuch to be feared or rather more then God For Iesus Christ hath said witnessed â—â—â—rely that his kingdome is not of this world But the Pope will haue it both in this world and in the other Furthermore he admonisheth vs not to feare those which can but onely kill the body and do no more but let vs feare him onely which is able to destroye both body and soule and to cast them into hell Sith then that the Pope attributeth vnto himselfe such power that after that y he hath killed the bodyes he persecuteth stil the soules after the body is dead and excommunicateth the dead and sendeth them into hell who will deny that he is not God and that he may not vse the authoritie of his keyes as well towardes the dead as towards the liuing And that his buls and pardons doe not extend and stretch foorth vnto the dead and to the soules of Purgatory As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth Innocent the eight Pascale the fift Calistus and a great many other Popes which haue giuen full remission by their buls and indulgences both to the quicke and the dead And oftentimes for small causes As for to goe and visite a certeine Chappell to make a certeine voyage and other like matters But vpon condition that he haue alwayes ready money And the better to witnesse that Popish deitie Pope Boniface the eight would not haue his Iubile among the Christians as God had it amonge the Israelites but of an other sort For God ordeined the yeare of the great Iubile from fiftie yeares to fiftie yeares for to comfort the poore people for to render and restore the wages and possessions vnto the poore that are in debt for to deliuer the poore bondmen out of seruitude bondage and for to prefigure and foreshew the yeare of grace and the deliuerance liberty which Iesus Christ ought to bring vnto the Christian people according to the prophesie of Esay and of the other prophets But the Pope Boniface in the yeare 1300 as if Iesus Christ was not come and that he had not by his comming declared vnto vs the yeare of y great Iubile which shall indure vntill the ende of the worlde by the which we are affranchised froÌ„ the serâ—tude of sinne death diuell and of hell as putting himselfe in the place of Iesus Christ hath constituteâ— his Iubile by the which he hath promised full remission of sinnes vnto all those which will come visite at Rome the Chuâ—ch of Saint Peter and of Saint Paul And hath commaunded that it should be alwayes celebrated from an hundreth yeares vnto an hundreth yeares For he feareth least the olde custome of the auncient Panims should in succession of time be altogether abolished Thomas What custome Hillarius They haue accustomed to play in the honor of their Gods iests histories and diuers other playes which they do call seculer playes bicause they do not celebrate it but from an hundreth to an hundreth yeares And therefore the Heraldes doe crye which declare and publish them Come sée the games the which none of you shal neuer se any more Eusebius But Boniface hath done cleane contrary to that y thou sayest For he hath constituted the Iubile for to abolish the memory of those Panish plaies Hillarius He hath chaunged playes into playes and those which profited him nothing at all he hath chaunged theÌ„ into others more profitable for him But the other Popes which came afterwards seing and perceiuing that that Iubile was too long for them and that they could not haue so good a part for their pray haue abrogated and made shorter the time And therefore Pope Clement the sixt hath remitted it froÌ„ 50. years to 50. years And after him Pope Sextus the fourth who hath deiâ—ied and put among the saints S. Bonauenture hath agayne remitted it from xxv yeares to xxv years and hath celebrated the first in the yeare 1475. Afterwards Alexander the sixt who was pope in the yeare 1500. following the example of Sextus hath yet better enlarged that Iubile For â—e hath not onely held kept it at Rome but hath so enlarged it thorowout all Christendome that there remayneth almost no citie village nor parish but that he hath made them pâ—rtaâ—ers of it Thomas They may then bée well called Gods liuetenaunts in earth For sith that they do it 〈◊〉 y â— â—â—â—t Iesus Christ is well at leasure He â—ught to haue no great care neither for the quicke nor for the dead sith that he hath such liuetenauntes we shall bée compelled to chaunge our Credo and whereas in the same we consesse that he shall come from heauen for to be the Iudge of the quicke and the dead we must giue that title vnto the Pope Hillarius A good Sophister wil easily absolue thy doubt For wee confesse that Iesus Christ shall come at the time appointed Wherefore they will conclude that Iesus Christ is not yet really and in euery déede Iudge of the quicke and of the dead but that he shal be Or if thou wilt that I doe tell thée in their language That he is Iudge Non actu sed habitu aptitudine but that the Pope is not onely in power remote future but actu in potentra propinqua propinquissima that is to say of act dâ—ede worke and power néere and present Thomas Beholve a goodly solution In the meane while then Iesus Christ shal rest and the Pope shall docâ—all Theophiluâ— I am abashed if their buls indulgences pardons haue such power How Gregory hath passed them ouer without making any mencion of them when he comprehended all the meanes by which the liuing might comfort the soules of purgatory For hée did put aâ—d declare â—nt foure and touched not one word of the buls and pardons But there is yet an other pointe that which y doctor Hostiensis which is of great reputatioÌ„ among the papises was not of opinion that the pope can doe such thinges by his pardons and indulgences but hath holden the contrary â—ea and the other doctors as Bonauenture Thomas of Aquin Alexander of Ales Giles Dâ—rand Richard Peter of Tarentaisâ— and many other like hauâ— had sometime the thing in doubt and haue onely disputed of it as of an opinion afterwardes haue taken vpon them baldnesse to define vpon it and to giue their sentence as if they were
wel assured of it But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true it is great felly for the papistes to bestowe any more any pennye nor halfe pennye neither for the funerals nor for y masses vigils nor other suffrages for y dead that they should reiect aâ— other manner of doings for to hold themselues onely to y buls pardons and to buy them for to draw the sâ—ules from Purgatory For it should not cost them so much should haue sooner dispatched riâ— away the poore soules from Purgatory For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the Church hath the power as Alexander de Ales witnesseth by the power of his keys by the meanes of his indulgences to distribute bestow them as wel to the liuing as to the dead the Papistes haue no more néede of any other thing For euen as they haue by their Masses and other inuâ—ntions abolished put out the vertue of the death and passion and of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ so the Popes which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue abolished masses suffrages al meritorious works for the quicke for the dead which their predecâ—ssors haue inuented without the word of god And so by that meanes one shal haue no more néede not onely of Iesus Christ but also of their masses nor of all that that they can do but it is sufficient for al to haue paper parchment written and buls signed sealed with waxe or with lead â—ut which is more I am very much abashed how they dare to attribute so much power ouer y dead to their buls keys absolutioÌ„s sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decreâ—als Canons doe witnesse and openly confesse that the church can bindâ— and vnbinde those y be liuing not the dead and that wâ—e doe not read that the same was euer coÌ„maunded or done not of Iesus Christ himselfe which alâ—ne hath the power to do that But hath said namely vnto S. Peter Al that that thou shalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth shal be bound in heaueÌ„ He hath said namely vpon earth For he hath neuer sayd that he that shal be dead being bound shal be vnbâ—und Beholde the very wordes of the Canons which doe well way the wordes of Iesus Christ and doe confirme y that I haue said of the authoritie of the keyes at the least in this place in which is said very plainely that by those words of the gospell is declared that none can be excommunicated or absolued aâ—ter he is dead For he saith That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth He sayth not vnder the earth declaring that we may binde and vn binde those that be alyue for y diuersitie of their merits but we cannot giue sentence of the dead Beholde the question that Gratian propounded the resolution in his owne words Thomas How can that agrée with that which hath bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead It must néeds be that the canons be contrary the one vnto the other Theophilus That is not newe nor rare with them But the glosers doe excuse that by their interpretacions and exceptions I doe not denye but that we may condempne dempne after that one is deade the false doctrine that a man and an Hereticke shall holde during his lyfe if then it be manifested euen as it might bée done by some of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples for to aduertise the Churches to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themselues But to excommunicate and curse the persons I knowe or sée not how that can bée boâ—ne with all by the holy Scripture â—ith that they are before theyr Iudge vnto whome the Angells did sende the Diuell as is written of Michael the Archangell who disputing with the Diuell about the body of Moâ—es durst not vse rayling iudgement agaynst him but said vnto him The Lord rebuke thée Yet neuerthelesse those heere dare to enterprise more agaynst men both quick and dead then the Angells durst agaynst the Diuels although that they holde them already for most certeâ—â—e to be condempâ—â—ed of God. Hillarius I am yet abashed of one thing If the Pope haue such power to giue full remission from payne and fault by his bulles moulgences aswell for the quick as for the soules of the dead I meruayle that hée hath not already long sithence made emptiâ— and cleansed Purgatory and that he hath not fetched out all the soules sith that he giueth so many pardons dayly and hourely and not only he but al â—is Cardinals bishops priests monks Eusebius There is a goodly aunswere vnto that question The first is for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory The other is euen as Saint Thomas saint Bonauenture doe aunswere vnto that obiection that it is very requisite and needefull before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable that it haue reasonable cause and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church in which are assembled and comprised al the merits of Iesus Christ all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes which euer were should be done with moderation and discression or otherwise god will not accept it And therefor the pardons indulgences are not giuen vnto any person eyther for him or for any other be he quicke or dead but by reason of some good worke that he hath done eyther for him selfe or in the name of those for whome the pardon is giuen And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which haue the charge to giue them al do know be they Cardinals Archbishops Bishops Abbots Moonks or Priests how many they may giue euery day except the Pope which hath not his power limitted except he vse theÌ„ vnreasonably the pardoÌ„s theÌ„ that he wil giue shal not be auaileable with god Hillarius I vnderstand what thou wouldest say The pope hath heaped vp together all the merits of Iesus Christ of the patriarchs prophets Apos tles Martirs confessors virgins saints saintes of paradise of al the Christian Church in a treasure and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or shut distribute little or much when he will and as it pleaseth him For he is the great lockesimth But al the others are but as his seruaunts of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one in such sort that they cannot distribute but that that he hath delyuered vnto them and of whom they haue the keyes Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in the treasury garner a great many of seuerall chaÌ„bers and cabins of which many must haue the keyes euery one his owne for to depart and bestow that whereoff he hath the dispensation without daring to touche the
which was there hid in a low place vnder the béere aunswered that he would Wherefore they dyd Baptise him in stéede of the dead Hillarius They had yet more appearance thē our Bishops Priests which baptised the bels Eusebius If those two arguments doe séeme vnto thée weake and feeble I will alldge vnto thée a stronger When S. Paul did write vnto the Philippians that vnto Iesus Christ is giuen a name aboue all names that in the name of Iesus should euery knée boow both of things in heauen things in earth things vnder the earth What vnderstādeth he by those which vnder the earth do boow their knées vnto Iesus Christ That cannot be vnderstanded of the diuels For they haue not accustomed to honour God nor the damned also For their office is rather to blaspheme him It must needes be then that they be in Purgatory which do boow the knée vnto Iesus Christ which do honour him or otherwise the words of S. Paul should not be true Theophilus If by boowing the knée S. Paul did vnderstande the true diuine seruice the true inuocation and the true honour which the elect doo owe vnto God ther should be some reason appearance in the argument But S. Paul by that manner of speaking meaneth none other thing by boowing the knée but that to Iesus Christ is giuen such domination that it is necessary that euery creature bée subiect vnto him and obeye him and acknowledge him to bee Iudge and Lorde the which the good and the elect dowillingly and with a good heart the wicked and reprebate in spite of their téeth But they are neuerthelesse campelled For they cannot resist the vertue and power of Iesus Christ which maketh his enimies his footstoole But the Apostle vseth such manner of speaking for to followe the stile of the Prophetes and to declere vnto vs that which the Lord hath sayde by I say I doe liue sayth the Lord Euery knee shal boowe vnto mee The which the Apostle expoundeth by other woords saying wee shall be all brought before the iudgement scate of Christ Afterwardes hee confirmeth that proposition by the very wordes of the Prophet declaring that all that commeth to one effect For bicause that the good and euill are compelled to render obedience vnto their Lordes and that they doe declare commonly their subiection and humilitie in boowing the knée and dooing reuerence before their Lorde the Scripture vseth such manner of speakinge for to signifie the obedience reuerence and subiection that euery creature must she we towardes god Although that the same may bée done diuerse wayes either by bowing the knées and without bewing the knées For the Angells and the soules can no better boowe their knees then the Diuels sith that all of thē haue no knées which cannot be but to bodies if we doe not vnderstande any otherwise those figures of speaking And therefore there is no inconuenience to vnderstande by those which do boow the knees vnder the earth the Diuels themselues with all the reprobate which shall all appeare before the iudgement seate of Christ and shall be cōpelled to acknowledge him to be their Iudge in great horrour and feare as they haue already shewed by experience in the time that Iesus Christ was yet in his mortall body passible before that he was risen againe For the wicked spirites were constrayned to obey him and to confesse him to be Christ and to pray vnto him Although that it was against their wills saying O Iesu thou sonne of God what haue wee to do with thee Art thou come hether to torment vs before the time be come We know that thou art the holy eue of God And they besought him saying If thou cast vs out suffer vs to goe our way into the herd of swine In the very same manner as they are compelled to entreate beseech Iesus Christ to confesse him so shall they be compelled to boow the knee vnto him And if they did that vnto him whilest that he was yet mortal passible what shal they do now sith that he sitteth immortal glorious at the right hand of God his father And if they doe beséech or pray to Iesus Christ may they not as well boow the knee vnto him In the sence the auncients haue vnderstāded Theophilactus expoūdeth it expresly of the diuels which shal be constrained to giue glory honour vnto Iesus Christ Eusebius If thou hast escaped that place I beleeue that thou shalt not escape so easily of the like written in the Apocalipse where it is sayd And all the creatures which are in heauen and on the earth vnder the earth in the sea and al that are in them heard I saying blessing he nor glory power be vnto him that sitteth vpon the seate and vnto the lambe for euermore Thou canst not héere say but that it is spoken of the true praise of the true honor which is due vnto God the which the diuels nor the reprobate cannot giue vnto him And yet neuertheles it is here said that there be creatures vnder the earth which do giue vnto him that praise which can be none other thē the soules of purgatory Theophilus You do lacke but the leg of a Fly for to build your arguments Doest thou not see that the holy Ghost vseth an enumeration by the which he witnesseth that all creatures in al places do praise their creator Iesus Christ the true lambe by whō all is restored But being not contēted to vse an vniuersal proposition he also woult by enumeratiō of creatures in perticuler conclude that in general bicause that that manner of speaking doth better expresse the thing doth amplifie better the glory of God declaring that there is not an element nor any place where God is not praised and magnified frō the highest part of heauen vnto the bottom of the earth from euery part of the world For as he writeth that the heauens declare the glory of God the firmament sheweth foorth his handy works Also there is not a creature whatsoeuer it bee neither in Heauen nor in the ayre nor in the water nor in the earth nor vnder the earth not so much as an Ant or Pismer neither a worme plant trée nor stone which preacheth not singeth prayseth magnifieth according to his nature in his manner Eusebius How can the mute and dumbe creatures speake being without reason and insensible which haue no sence reason vnderstandinge nor speach It must néedes be that we doe vnderstand that of men Theophilus How can the Angells the blessed soules speake and praise God which haue no mouth as we haue And how can the Firmament the Sunne the Moone and the starres declare and shew foorth the glory of God and declare his vertue and power for they haue no soule nor mouth as men haue Yet they haue neuerthelesse their mouth agréeing
diuers interpretacions the which I will recyâ—â— some to the ende that thou shouldest not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which haue expounded it Or that I am more arrogant then all men and that I doe attribute more to my sence and iudgdement then to any other If I define rashlye of a thinge the which all the Expositours haue founde it so obscure and harde that many among them haue bene constrayned to confesse that they cannot vnderstande it Then I will touch the diuers expositions which are more sufferable Afterwardes I will signifie vnto you that which I thinke to be most proper There are some which doe not vnderstand that Saint Peter speaketh héere but of the lyuing vnto whom Iesus Christ hath preached the gospell aswell in his owne proper person as by his Prophets and Apostles which haue all spoken by his spirite Wherefore one may well say that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto theÌ„ sith that it was not they that did speake but Iesus Christ who by his holy spirite did speake in them Those heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie and doe vnderstande by the spirits which were in prison the dead vnto whom it is sayd in the chapter following that the Gospell was preached saying that saint Peter by that seconde place expoundeth the first Now by these dead vnto whom hath bene preached they vnderstand not the dead but doe take that word by a Metaphore vnderstanding by the dead the sinners which are dead thorâ—w sinne the which he hath called before the spirits which were in prison bicause that the soule which is dead thorow sinne is holden by the same as a prisoner which is in bondes and fetters in the stockes and in prison Those which doe expounde it after that manner notwithstanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words yet neuerthelesse they doe a lytâ—le differ touching that spirite by the which Iesus Christ went and preached vnto the spirits which were in prison For some doe expound it for the manifestation of Iesus Christ which hath bene before his comming Others for that which hath followed his comming These heere doe vnderstand by the spirite the holy Ghost which Iesus Christ sent and gaue vnto his â—posâ—les by the which he hath preached the Gospel to the Iewes and â—entiles which before were rebellious and disobedient vnto the worde of God. Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and disobedient spirits deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of sinne For although that Iesus Christ ascended into heauen and hath taken his body from vs yet neuerthelesse he is alwaies among vs by the vertue of his spirite by the which he speaketh in his Apostles Ministers and Euangelycall Pastors and preacheth and admonisheth alwayes the sinners and toucheth their heart and conducteth and leadeth their spirits by his for to make them enter into his Church for to saue the elect in the same as those which were saued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this exposition contrary to the Analogie of the faith and the sence of the Scriptures But yet neuerthelesse it séemeth to some to be a lyttle allegorised and vyolated and to stray a lyttle too far front the Apostolycal simplycitie Although that it be tollerable and Christian lyke Others doe vnderstande by the spirite of Christ his eternall vertue by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde as he is at this present the Sauiour by the water as he doth now by the baptisme And therefore they doe vnderstand that he is gone by his spirit by his diuine vertue by his word thorow out the world as he passed thorow out Aegipt declaring his power among the Aegyptians sauing the Israelites Asmuch hath hée done in the time of the floude and doth yet at this day For he declareth his Iudgement vnto the wicked hath drowned them in the floude euen as now he declareth it vnto all to the ende that his seruaunts may be saued in the Arke of the Churche and the others drowned by the Iudgement of god Therefore is Noe called the herauld of righteousnesse for to declare that by the same the spirite of Iesus Christ declareth vnto men the righteousnes and Iudgement of God as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes vnto those which doe rebell agaynst him and refuse peace And the word which Saint Peter vsed when he sayd y Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirits doth not signifie onely to preach but also to publish a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld And that worde herauld the which Saint Peter vsed speaking of Noe is taken of the very same of which he vseth saying that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirites And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them spirits they thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections beeing possessed with euill spirits And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written God did sée y all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen vnto euill And vppon that which Saint Paul speaking of the power which is giuen vnto him by the ministring of the Gospell sayth that it is for to beat downe euery high thing which exalteth it selfe agaynst God and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and spirites of men to the obedtence of Christ delyuering them from the subiection of the wicked spirites which doe holde captiâ—e the spirites and vnderstanding of the reprobate They doe vnderstand then by the spirites which were in prison those which were in the spirituall prison or whose spirits were deteyned in captiuitie and prison by the wicked spirits They haue yet regard vnto that that the scripture calleth those which perished by the floude the sonnes of God which did see the daughters of men and to that which is there written that the Lord did strike and destroy euery soule and taketh from the middes of them euery spirite and that he hath sayd in threatning them that he will take from them his spirite For that cause they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call such men spirits bicause that whilest that their spirits did sleepe and were detemed by the wicked spirits they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the sloude and the spirit was taken from them as to him which was strangled and câ—oked in the water They also haue regarde to that that that worde which Saint Peter hath vsed which we doe interprete prison doth also signifie the watche and warde which is kept in the night Insomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vnto the parable of Iesus Christ which admonisheth euery one to watch as the faithfull seruant looking for his master who knoweth not what houre hée will come whether it be in the seconde thirde or fourth watch of the night and for a
full resolution they will fall vppon this sence Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh body and humanitie yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite that is to say by his eternall vertue and diuine power by the which hee is not onely risen from death but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh and hath tourned death into lyfe quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person he declared that he is so dead that there is no lyfe but in his death and that none can lyue but by him and that he is not onely to day but euerlasting and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells the proude and peruerse spirits oppressed with wicked spirites which were not vnder their kéeping but did sléepe not thinking on the iudgement of god vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them as he doth yet at this present by that same spyrite by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe. Hillarius It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated far fetched neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter Theophilus Bicause that the place is obscure hard I dare not to define pronounce of it rashly But I would gladly put forth these expositions to that ende you may iudge of theÌ„ for to awake the spirits for to finde out some better thing Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest that is to say that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie vertu of Iesus Christ of his death and passion witnesseth that it was so great that the lyuing haue not onely felt perceiued it but the dead also vnto whom it is come But in what manner or after what sort How is it communicated vnto vs and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe and hath communicated vnto vs his vertue so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade both during their lyse and after their death For it is sayde of Abraham that he did sée the day of the Lord and reioyced If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice wée cannot doubt but that he and all the others which were in his bosome haue felte it more fully when he did manifest himselfe more fully By this we may well vnderstand whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie that it goeth vnto the dead what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ sith that none can do it but he himself by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth towards the dead such as is among the lyuing but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs but in their maner and such as apperteineth vnto them euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse but by an other meane then vnto vs bicause that their condition was contrary We must not then dreame out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell and a preaching such as wée haue But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen for to make vs feele his vertue so it is not necessary to descend into hell For the vertue of his spirite is such that it filleth heauen and earth and is spread abrode euery where Hillarius As I thinke our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure wheÌ„ they setled themselues to dispute whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell Amongest the which some of them are founde to bée of opinion that he did Theophilus If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise and how Iesus Christ descended into hell when his soule was sorrowfull and in anguish euen vnto the death and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes insomuch that he was stroken beaten of God hath suffered death after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise in which it was for to goe into hell For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand which haue receiued consolation and vnto those of the reprobate declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending Eusebius To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe of which it is also spoken in Zachery saying I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water Theophilus By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon he will deliuer his people that are captiue kept in the bottom of all miseries By the prisoners he vnderstandeh his people that bée in captiâ—itie by y euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie a goulse and bottome of all miserye from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth yea yet without water in which one cannot swimme to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie and the grace and mercy of God towardes them When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude bondage of the law vnder those shadows figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in