great triumphes of For the first off the places it appeareth how Chrysost there called Iohn elder of the church of Antioche was chosen bishop of Constantinople by cōmē voice of all both people and clergy and how he had his election ratified by the Emperour Arcadius For the seuēth booke yt appeareth that Chrysanthus was chosen bishop off Costantinople by the people And when as Sabbatius because Chrysanthus hid himself and would haue none off the bishopricke gat certeine bishops to ordeine him into yt the story sheweth how the people sowght Chrysanthus owt and put owt Sabbatius diuers other exāples there be which I leaue as I would also haue doon thes if it had not bene to haue shewed the vaine triumphes off the D. And where he saith that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people but in one onely which he goeth about to wipe a way that thow maiest know the D. changeth not his skin I will note them in a word To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation where he saith the election was made by the ministers and pastors yt is manifest that the churches had to doo in the electiōs For in the indorcemēt of the letters wherby an other was appointed at Antioche into Samosatenus roume as well autority off the churches is pretended as off the bishops elders and deacons Where also he would clude the other place firste because it was a miracle then for that by the word brethren it is not certeine whether the people were noted for the first yt may appeare how vaine yt is seing the story saith the brethren came together to chuse a bishop The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them and after they were assembled was to direct them in their election and not to authorise them to chuse For autority they had before els they would not haue come together for that purpose As for the other it is a boldnes too insufferable withowt shewing any one exāple and contrary both vnto the phrase off the scripture and aucient fathers shewed in my former booke and off Eusebius him self as may appeare diuers times in some one chapter In all thes sentences set downe owte of Euseb there is not a worde for the D. nor againste vs The D. cōsesseth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely he can not denie if he woulde but that he tawght by the appointment off bishoppes Thes two beinge put what followeth but that in those daies he was counted a laie man which toke vppon him the ministerie vppon the bishoppes appoinctinge onelye And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises my reson I will set downe in a fewe wordes That appointement vnto the ministrie which was thowght not to inhable to be minister was thowght insufficient but the appointement off the bishops onely was thowght not to inhable to be minister for Origene that had that appoinctement and authoritie vvas still coumpted a laie man therfore that authoritie onely was then thowght insufficient Eusebius therfore giuinge me this houlde which the D. is driuen vvhether he will or no to confesse ▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I haue saide For if the bishops appointment off Origine to preach did not gyue him any degree in the ministrie for what cawse did it not except yt be it at I haue assigned his trāslatiō of Euse words whē he was yet not ordeined minister wherin another point off this matter standeth is not warrāted For by this means he must take one of his wordes which properly signifieth the choise by lifting vp and vsed sometimes of eccesiasticall writers for laying on of hands for a degree which hathe no example Likewise he must take the other vvhich I haue shewed to signifie the company of all the gouernours off the church for the office off one onely elder which wanteth proofe Beside that Muscul which translateth yt semeth to haue folowed the sence I haue where if he had folowed the D. he would haue doone otherwise For in steed of he had not appoinctmēt of the eldership he would haue saied the degree of an elder Where he alledgeth that Demetrius suffred hym to teach at Alexandria when he was a laie man belike therby to proue that the reprehension of Demetrius was not to be regarded which did himselfe that he found faulte with in other yt maketh nothinge to this question For yt is enowghe to that in hande that yt is confessed bothe by Demetrius and Eusebius Which taketh the defense off those whom Demetrius rebuked that Origene was a laie man althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the vvorde by the Bishops Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place is an other question The nexte sect I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader Of this greate heape which foloweth the moste parte haue bene broughte before some foure times at the leaste they haue bene thresshed and there is no yelde it shal be seen that the rest are no better then their fellowes the places off scripture alledged heere are all answered sauing onely that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hosius who vseth this place againste the choise by the church For answer wherunto I saie that it is nor question there off such election as wee spake off that beinge the election off God and not off the church I for my parte rather thinke that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes or one off the prophetes and for proofe alledge the storie in the Crome which may be cōmētary to this For as the church thē in distresse by publike praier and faste receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet whom the Lorde sodenly in the myddeste off the congregation raised amongeste them euen so the church off Antioche beinge in great distresse and feare off ruine off the church off God partly by the sworde and famine partly by contentions and serchinge remedy by puhlike praier and faste receiued by a Prophet which the lord stirred vpp amongeste them this oracle wherby he shewed them a singular meanes not onely to mainteine but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Christe If the S. will not receiue this interpretation but take the holy gost to haue sounded immediatly from heauen yet it helpeth him nothing there was no place lefte for any election but needes muste Paule and Bar. besent Iff therfore the bishop haue the spirite off prophecie at any time wherby he may haue such a certeine and vnfallible direction as this was wee will les sticke with him for his sole election Iff not yt is in vaine to alledge this example sauinge that it maketh much againste him For if the lorde woulde haue the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors and elders in that election vvhich him selfe had made and vvhere there was no daunger off error howe
conference of bishops or minsters whiche were nere vnto that place where Cyprian remained For if it had bene anye soleÌ„ne councell Cypr. woulde not firste haue holden that and then after they had decreed off matters in consultation as yt appeareth in that epistle they had conferred withe him by letters And if he shoulde yet yt dothe manifestly appeare by that whiche I haue alledged that this was decreed loÌ„ge before I will therfore waite what aduise yow will take to answer to this Councell which was bothe catholike and generall and more aunciente then that off Nice puttinge yow also in remembraÌ„ce what a greate extoller off councels yow be when they make any thinge for yow None of the places vvhiche they alledged declare anysuche meaninge and the place quoted owte off Eze. manifestly declareth that they meÌ„te of those vvhiche had fallen from the trewthe Besides that al men maie see that yow browght thes exaÌ„ples of M. Luth. c. to proue that ministers vvhich had fallen into Idolatrie might be restored vnto the ministerie And where they speake off kinge Henries preistes kinge Edwardes c. Yt is apparente that they mente not to seclude them for that they were kinge Henries preistes but because they were kinge Henries and Queene Maries preistes bothe seing they also shutte forthe kinge Edwardes preistes which by no means they can be suspected to haue doone vnles they had mente off those which beinge ministers then were preistes also in Queene Maries tymes Yf They had saide thus simplie all indifferent iudgemente muste needes so haue expounded them but vvhen they expounde them selues so plainly in these wordes men for all seasons I mighte well saie as I haue saide vvhat hathe so blynÌ„ded your eyes c. For his iudgemente off certeine preachers nowe massmongers in Queen Maries times comparable with any in the lande I leue to speake of it For seinge he hathe a seuerall diuinitie from others he muste be suffred also to frame his iudgemente therafter The sclanderous vntrwthes that are here vttered I will not defile my penne withe Off the places off Deuter. and Ezechiel I haue spoken Howe the iudiciall lawe is in the powre off the magistrate is declared and here was no place to speake off it Forasmuche as the question is here off the discipline off the churche and not off ciuill punishmentes and whether the churche owghte to admit a minister that hathe fallen vnto Idolatrie The nexte section I leue to the iudgemente off the reader The nexte vnto that is answered before in the first tract and 6. chap. Yt was a greate parte off Alexanders commendation that he was fearce in fight and geÌ„tle in victorie The D. is cleane coÌ„trary For a lam is not so meek and so tame as he is in his disputation and reasoning but in his triumphes althowghe false and imagined there is nothing more fearce To beare oute all this storme off wordes prophane Philosopher and druncken poete c. There is not so muche as one Philosopher prophane or diuine one Poete sober or druncken to improue that the gentils did neuer take oxen serpentes fire vvater c to be god or that they toke the Images before vvhiche they fell for vvood stone c. Yff I shoulde alledge all the places owte off them which mighte be browghte to the confirmacion off that whiche I set downe yt were muche more easier to fynde a begynninge then an ende Howbeit because off the shamefull and foreheadles dealiâ—ge off the D. off an infinite number I will alledge one or two Wherby it maie appeare what opinion was off these thinges amongeste the gentils And to beginne withe Philosophers it can not be vnknowen to those vvhiche are learned that amongeste others Plato and his secte approched neereste to the trew knowledge off god And albeit he coÌ„fessethe in diuers places one God by whome the vvorld vvas ruled yea and makethe mention off the father and off the sonne vvhiche he calleth the moste deuine worde and hathe many other thinges consonante vnto that whiche Moses vvritethe in suche sorte that he was called off some Moses speakinge in the moste pureste manner off the Grecians Albeit I saie this Philosopher did well knowe that there vvas but one God whiche made heauen and earthe yet he taught that diuers spirites and men also whiche had bene famous vppon earthe shoulde be worshipped For the Poetes the saying of Virgill all are full off Iupiter maie declare that the honour and seruice which the Gentills did to the Images bestes and other creaturs whiche they worshipped vvas for an opinion that they had off the presence off Iupiter in â—hose thinges and not for the thinges them selues and there wanted not diuers amongeste them whiche saide there was but one God vvhiche they called Iupiter and that Appollo Venus Diana c. Were but vertues or partes of Iupiter so that in those they worshipped Iupiter And althowghe the Egyptians vvere comparable in grossnes off Idolatrie withe any nation Yet Isocrates thus writeth off their manner off vvorshipp He appoincted off all sortes off diuine vvorship oâ— exercise vnto them and made a lavve for the vvorshippinge off beastes despised amongeste vs not that he was ignorante off their powre but because he vvoulde accustome the people to the obedience off those thinges vvhiche vvere commanded by their princes and vvithall meaninge thereby to take a profe how they vvere affected towardes the inuisible thinge by thinges visible Here yow heare the Philosophers the Poctes the Orators vvhiche vvere the Prophetes off the gentils yet none ascribethe vnto theÌ„ suche a dotage as to thincke a peece off vvood c. to be God. And iff this knowledge vvere in the grosseste Idolaters howe can suche ignorance haue been in the Israelites as he imaginethe But I had forgotten the boye off the grammer scoole whom he appointethe for my scoolemaister in this matter wheras if euer he toke heede vnto the firste verse off Cato he muste needes giue vvitnesse of our side that the gentils toke God for a spirite and not for a peece off wood c. And this that is here spoken off sondrie off the Idolatrous Gentils S. Paule pronouncethe off them all vvhere he goinge abowte to proue that all the nations vvere shut vnder condemnation saithe that they knevve God by his creatures but did not glorifie him as God. This opininion the Gentile had of one God Iustine martyr prouethe by that vvhensoeuer they entred into any earneste consyderation off God they vvere vvonte to name one God onely And that they imagined their Godds to be in heauen besides that yt is easie to gather off their gestures in holdinge vp their handes aÌ„d castinge vp their eyes vnto heauen as ofte as they felte theÌ„ selfes in any daunger may likewise appeare where the Idolaters of Listra and Derbe conceiuing off Barnabas and Paule as off Goddes to mainteine that error off theirs are driuen to saie that they were
cum dovvne from heauen declaringe therby that the receiued opinion off them was that the ordinarie Goddes were in heauē For yt is not to be dowted but they had the images of Iupiter and Mercurie whiche they worshipped in that place and yet they did not take them for their Goddes but Imagined that the Goddes wherof those vvere the Images were in heauen Nowe this that euery dronken poete and boy c. can tell to be otherwise let vs see whether graue learned sober ād anciēte diuines doo not plainely confirme Augustine vvhich is here alledged to proue that the gentils did take the verie images them selues to be their goddes shewethe that the verie vulgare and grossest sort of Idolaters coulde answere vvhen they vvere rebuked of their Idolatry and heathenishe vvorship that they vvorshipped not the visible image but that vvhich dvvelt inuisibly in it and that they off the finer sort answered that they neither vvorshipped the image nor any spirite in the image but by that bodelie image did beholde the signe off that thinge vvhich they ovvght to vvorship M. Caluin answeringe vnto the Papistes obiection that their images are not takē for goddes saith thus Nether vvere the Ievves saith he so vnvvise that they did not remember that it vvas God by vvhose hande they vvere brovvght ovvte off Aegypte before theye made the calfe yea vnto Aaron sainge that those vvere their goddes vvhich brovvghte them ovvte of Aegypte they did vvithovvte staggeringe consente gyuinge therby to vnderstande assuredly that they vvoulde kepe still the same God for their deliuerer so that they mighte see him goo before them in the calfe Nether is it to be thovvghte that the Gentils vvere so blockishe that they did not vnderstande that God vvas some other thinge then vvood or stone For they changed their images oftētimes and yet kept the same goddes still in there mynde and their vvere many Images set vpp to one God neither did they therfore accordīg to that multitude imagine many Goddes Besydes that daily they consecrated nevve Images and yet they thovvghte not therfore that they made nevve Goddes And towardes the ende off that sectiō he vvritethe thus Notvvithstandinge boothe the Ievves vvere Persvvaded that vnder suche Images they vvorshipped the eternall god the one trevve lorde off heauen and earthe and the Gentils also that by them they vvorshipped their goddes althovvghe false yet vvhiche they imagined to haue their abode in heauen And in the beginninge off the tenth section Those vvhiche denie that this vvas doone in tymes paste and is doon in our age lye impudentlie And towardes the latter ende off that section vnto the Papistes obiecting that they doo not call the images their godds he answerethe Neither did either the Ievves or Gentils so in times paste and yet the Prophetes in euery place did not cease to caste in theyr teathe fornicatiō vvith vvood and stone onely for the things vvhiche are dayly doone of those vvhich vvil be counted Christians that is to saie for that they vvorshipped God carnally in vvood and stone Nowe take awaie that which yow haue partly in your glose and partly in your texte moste vntrewly surmised and shew me one worde in all this section vvhiche yow haue made such horrible owtecries off that Maister Caluin doothe not speake more fullie then I. For where in your glosse vpon my wordes And vvho knovveth not that they thovvghte that by them and in them they vvorshipped the God vvhiche made heauen and earthe yow note in the mergente a grosse error making me to affirme that all the Gentills beleued that God made heauen and earthe yow change not your skin stil yow seeke aduātage by falshoode For tell me are thes all one they thovvghte they vvorshipped God vvhiche made heauen and earthe and they they thowghte that God made heauen and earthe When it is saide that the Papistes thinke they swallowe Christe whiche onelie sittethe at the righte hande off God doth one affirme that the Papistes thinke that Christe sittethe onelie at the righte hande off God For when there are two propositions there Wheroff the one is that the Gentills thowght they worshipped God the other that that God made heauen and earthe the Answ woulde make them as one But vvhat a veration off spirite is it to haue to doo withe one which either knoweth not vvhat the valewe off a proposition is or els knovvinge doothe so shamfully vvrest yt Yet the other vvhich he ascribethe vnto me in his texte is yet farther from honest dealinge For he askethe me whether iupiter Apollo c. were goddes whiche created heauen and earthe as if I had giuen any occasion of that question He addethe and asketh whether they were thowght to haue made heauen and earthe To vvhom I haue answered before that the wordes importe no suche thinge neither had I either in that proposition or in any before made mention off Iupiter or Appollo c. And if I shoulde answere that Iupiter was thowghte off some abused by fables of the Poetes to haue made heauen and earthe What woulde folowe therof I saie therfore againe that take awaye your vntrew additions and there is nothinge set downe off me which Maister Caluin dothe not precisely affirme And that which I haue set downe owte off Maister Caluin I coulde recite as fully and as plainly owte off Maister Musculus which I omite For your places which yow haue heaped together here I knowe them wel and had thē before me when I wrote Yow gyue me them in grosse withowte applyinge yow either coulde frame no argumente of them or feared the answer I can not examin all those chapit which yow giue me oneles I woulde write a whole booke off that matter onelie Yow take vp the Adm. becawse they applie not their scripturs and frame not their argumētes yet they let not yow wander in the vvhole chapiter but gaue one verse to speake vnto I muste also admonishe yow to beare more reuerence vnto the scripture then to confounde yt vvith Baruche and especially vvith the storie off Bell and the Dracon if yow vvill not be admonished I vvill desyre the reader to take heede off suche confusion there being as much differēce betwene the one and the other as betwene heauen and earthe God and man. Why is this the profe yow promise in your glose wherby yow saide yt shoulde appeare to be vntrewe that I alledged Those greate vvordes made me hope after some stronge reasons yff we will folowe hym here he vvill leade vs the ready waie to the popishe transubstantiation For he stickethe in the very vvorde and vvill admit no sacramental speache and therfore vvhere the arke is called the lorde off hostes the kinge off glorie in his diuinitie yt muste needes be taken so in deede that the arke made off vvoode is very god For in the wordes off the texte it is expressly signified And euen as that is so is this a sacramentall speache wherby they hauing
magistrate and ecclesiasticall person which is taken for graunted where yt owghte to be proued for all thowghe he saie I maie see it yet he sheweth forth no lighte off reason to make me see yt by as for that he alledgeth that in some places he is called Dominus which hath but small lordship I haue answered yt in another place where I shew that lord with vs can not be so taken vnles he meane a Christmas lord our lorde off misrule Nowe both the propositions standing the conclusion is moste treue When as also the tytle off Grace is gyuen to ecclesiasticall persons which is gyuen vnto the prince and doth not agree vnto any vnder the degree off a Duke the nexte vnto the prince I vvoulde gladly know vvhat difference there is betwene the titles off ecclesiasticall persons and the ciuill magistrate so great that he muste needes be very blind which doth not see yt And where the D. saithe that ecclesiasticall persons may shewe forthe the countenance of their degree he nether sheweth what that is and muste be belieued off his bare worde for there is no profe at all But off the pompe in other thinges there shall be God willing spoken off afterward Wheer the D. saith yt is the poincte off a Sophister to striue for names off thynges where there is agreement off the matter vnto the reasons and examples I alledged to proue that the very bare vse off certeine names is vnlawfull althowgh the thinges noted by them be not he answereth not a worde And if those exaÌ„ples be not stronge enowgh to obteine that at his handes I would knowe of him which maketh so smal accounte off names vvhether a man which confesseth him selfe mortall may be called by the name of Iehouah c. The answer to the first propositioÌ„ is insufficient I could take exceptions to the examples here aliedged as that thes wordes I haue said yovv are Gods are not gyuen vnto magistrates that they should be saluted by the name off God or that one king should be called the God of England another the god off France vvhich vvere not tollerable and approching to the pride off Antiochus but to this end that the autoritie vvhich they exercise according vnto God might be acknowledged in them yet I answer generally that those speaches be therfore lawfull because the Lorde in his scripture hath communicated them vvith men vvherfore if the D. vvill proue that the tytle off archbishop proper vnto our Sauiour Christe may be imparted vnto a mortall man he muste shewe that as the name off God light off the vvorld c. is gyuen vnto men in the scripture so is also the name of Archbishope vvhich vvhen he shall neuer doo yt ys in vaine to pretend thes examples For as yt had bene an intollerable arrogancie for any man to haue ether taken or gyuen the autoritie off God vnto the sonnes off Adam onles he him self had so honored them so is yt full off presumption ether to gyue or take this so highe a name vvhich being the seuerall off our Sauiour Christ was neuer by no vvorde off his laide owte in commen vnto any symple man vvhatsoeuer The D. answer vnto the second proposition by distinction the ignorance vvheroff he doth so often times reproche me vvith is full of disorder and hath nothing sound first yt faulteth in that yt rendeth a sunder thinges vvhich can not be seperated and that two waies one in separating the gouernement of the church by pastors doctors c. from the spirituall For vvhen the ecclesiasticall ministrie hath respecte to the sowle and conscience when yt is called the mynisterie off the spirite spirituall when they which 〈◊〉 yt are called mynisters in the kingdom off heaueâ—â— when the owtward preaching excommunication and other discipline which they vse be spirituall this seperation off the owtward gouernement off the church from the spirituall and making off them opposite members doth not distinguishe but destroie the gouernement off Christe Thother is that where our Sauiour Christ gouerneth his church spiritually both with his spirite and word he placeth his sprituall gouernement onely in that he toucheth the heartes off his electe by his spirite And where our Sau. Christe vseth the externall ministerie off men not onely in distribution off his word but also off his spirite the D. maketh thexternall ministrie to serue onely for the dispensation off the word and not off the spirite wheras he owghte to haue considered that as Christ him selfe sitting in heauen nowe teacheth by the mouth of the ministrie so he giueth also his spirite by the same ministrie in which respecte yt is called the ministrie off the spirite Seing therfore the externall gouernement off Christ in his church is spirituall and euen that inward towch off the spirite of God is not ordinarily but by the subordinate ministeries which God hath appoincted in his church yt is manifest that that distinction that Christ hath no subordinate pastors vnderneath him in the spirituall gouernement is false And if no man should touche yt the D. hath gyuen it the fall him selfe For where he saith Christ in the spirituall regiment is the onely Pastor by and by he saith he is the onely archbishop in spirituall gouernement Which if yt be true then hath he also in the spirituall gouernement other bishops vnderneath him for he can not be saide arche or cheife bishop but in respecte off other bishops vnder him And if this distinction were not false yet is it here idle and owt off place for S. Peter owt off whom I cited this testymony appropriateth to our S. Christ the name of archbishop in respecte off the externall regimeÌ„t that is to say in respecte that euery bishop had a particular charge of ministrie vnderneath him And where the D. faith there are other archbishops beside Christe in the externall gouernement seing he can not denie but the autoritie off Christ in euery prouince is greater then off his Archbishop I would gledly know off hym when he hath gyuen the name off Archbishop to another what name he leaueth vnto our Sauiour Christ wherby that exellencie and preheminence off autoritie may be noted if yt fall owt that there is no name aboue an archbishop I see not how he must not be constrained to confesse that that name is excessiue which being the greatest that can be in ecclesiasticall gouernement is giuen to him that hath not greatest autoritie The other faulte of this distinction is that yt confoundeth and shuffleth together the autoritie of our Sauiour Christ as he is the sonne off God onely before all worldes coequall with his father vvith that vvhich he hath gyuen off his father and vvhich he exerciseth in respecte he is mediator betwene God and vs For in the gouernement off the church and superiorytie ouer the officers off it our Sauiour Christ himselfe hath a superior vvhich is his father but in the gouernement off kingdomes and other