thereunto requested Wherefore saieth M. PERKINS secondly there is a great difference betweene requesting one to pray for vs and by inuocation to request them that are absent for this is a worshippe that is giuen to them and a power to heare and helpe all that call vpon them Reply First that by inuocation we may pray vnto men S. Augustine teacheth directly grounding himselfe vpon the expresse text of Scripture Locut in Gen. 200. Gen. 48. vers 15. where Iacob commandeth that his name and the name of his fore-fathers be inuocated vpon of the children of Israel And vvhat is inuocation in English but the calling vpon one vvhich is as lawfull as the praying vnto him That we doe them an honour and worship thereby I grant and say that the Saints being better then the liuing are better worthy of that worship then the liuing Further that we assigne them a power to heare them that be absent more then the liuing can doe it is no maruaile for the perfection of their heauenly state requireth that prerogatiue as I haue more then once declared But because this point of their knowledge breedeth the greatest doubt of praying vnto the Saints let S. Augustine a most juditious Doctor and one that was not partiall in that matter deliuering his sentence grounded also vpon holy Scripture be hearkened vnto and followed he treating of the happynesse of Saints in heauen hath these vvordes Lib. 22. de ciuit 29. If the Prophet Helizeus being absent in body did see his seruant Giësy receiuing the gifts which Naaman the Syrian gaue him c. how much more in that spirituall body shall Saints see all thinges not only if they shut their eyes but also from whence they be in body absent this he confirmeth by that sentence of the Apostle 1. Cor. 13. ver 9.10 We knowe in part and in part doe we prophesie but when that shall come which is perfect then shall that be made voide which is in part c. Hence thus reasoneth S. Augustine If the knowledge of this life in such as the Prophets and Apostles were be no more in comparison of the Saints knowledge in heauen then is a little childe compared to a man and this which is in part to that which is perfect then surely if Helizeus and other Prophets did see thinges done farre distant from them yea thinges that were to be done many hundred yeares after their times they being without doubt indued with this admirable knowledge from God howe much abundantly shall all they in heauen enjoy this gift when their bodies shall not hinder them yea they shall not neede bodylie eyes to see thinges absent but with the hart or spirit they shall be present to them 4. Reg. 5. vers 26. as Helizeus was who said was not my hart present when the man returned from his chariot to meete thee Can any thing be more euident or more soundly proued then that the Saints in heauen haue great preheminence aboue all that liued vpon the earth to see and knowe thinges absent and farre distant from them which the same father proueth also by most euident experience in the fifteenth and sixteenth Chapters of his booke intituled de cura pro mortuis agenda And that you may perceiue that that is not the opinion of S. Augustine alone I will joyne the testimonies of three or foure other Fathers with him S. Cyril Patriarke of Hierusalem saith Euen as S. Peter did question Ananias Catach 16 Act. 5. willing him to tell whether he had sold his ground for so much so did the Prophet Helizeus though he were not ignorant of it aske his seruant Giësy whether he had not receiued money of Naaman the Syrian for saith he nothing done euen in the darke is hidden from the Saints S. Basil writeth thus Let a Virgin first of all feare her owne conscience L. de Virginitate and if shee be neuer so solitary yet hath shee her Angell guardian present whose sight shee must not contemne specially when as they haue Angels as it were patterns of virginity but before all Angels let her respect and reuerence her spouse Christ who is present euery where And why did I speake of an Angell for shee hath an innumerable company of Angels present and with them the holy spirits or soules of the Fathers for there is none of these who doth not see all thinges euery where not truly beholding them with corporall eyes but by a spirituall sight pearcing vnto the knowledge of all thinges The same doth S. Athanasius that famous ancient Doctor resolue in his 32. question Quaest 32. See S. Augustine also lib. 20. of the Citty of God the 22. Chapter Teaching that the Saints in heauen doe knowe in particular what is done among the damned in hell And S. Hierome doth proue against Vigilantius that The Saints who followe the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth be excluded from no place and scorneth that dreaming Heretike for imagining that vnlesse the soules of the Martirs did lye houering about their shrines they could not heare their prayers that went thither to pray affirming him therefore to be a monster worthy to be banished into the vttermost câ—asts of the earth Encherines a most holy and learned Arch-bishop of Lyons all most 1200. yeares since confirmeth the same grounding his discourse vpon the same texts of Scripture that S. Augustine did saying If the Prophet Helizeus absent in body did see his seruant Giësy taking gifts howe much more shall Saints in that spirituall body see all thinges not only if they shut their eyes but also from whence they are in body absent For then shall be that perfection of which the Apostle speaketh in part we knowe and in part doe we prophesie 1. Cor. 13. but when that shall come which is perfect it shall be voyded which is in part therefore when that shall come which is perfect and this corruptible body shall no longer cumber the soule but it shall haue a glorious body which shall nothing hinder it shall the Saints then neede the helpe of bodylie eyes to see such thinges which Helizeus absent needed not to behold his seruant The testimonies of so many vvorthy Fathers will I hope suffice to perswade any reasonable man that the Saints in heauen doe very well heare our prayers To these I will joyne that which M. PER. maketh our second objection because it doth fortifie the same Luc. 16. vers 24. Abraham not then in possession of heauenly knowledge after our doctrine but in heauen as the Protestants thinke did heare Diues from hell vvhich is further off from heauen then the face of the earth which we inhabite and therefore more easily might he haue heard any liuing body praying vnto him then he did that rich glutton out of hell M. PERKINS answereth That this is a parable and out of a parable nothing can be gathered but that which is agreable vnto the intent
article of our beleefe borne of the Virgin Mary No more is there vnto that other specified by M. PERKINS he ascended into heauen and from thence shall he come to judge c for albeit he ascended the fortith day after his resurrection and shall at the last day come from thence to judgement yet betweene those two daies he may be where he will and wheresoeuer else he be it hath no direct repugnance with either branch of that article and therefore it doth but bewray the insufficiency of the Protestants skill in the rules of opposition or repugnances who so confidently auerre such great contrariety to be where there is none at all But Augustine saith Tract 50. in Ioannē Lib. 9. in Ioannem Lib. 2. ad Thras Cont. Eutich lib. 1. cap. 4. that Christ according vnto his Majestie prouidence grace is present with vs to the end of the world but according vnto his assumed flesh he is not alwaies with vs the same doth also Cyril Fulgentius and Vigilius testifie We answere that Christ in deede according vnto that visible forme of a man in which he once liued here vvith his Disciples hath very seldome beene seene vpon earth since his ascension but according vnto that forme of assumed flesh sitteth on the right hand of his Father which answere I take out of Vigilius cited here by M. PER. For he saith that Christ is departed from vs in the forme of a seruant that is according vnto his naturall shape of man but may neuerthelesse be very well with vs vnder the formes of bread and wine in the Sacrament which S. Augustine insinuateth in the very treatise alleaged by M. PERKINS saying that Christ is nowe with vs in foure sortes by Faith by the signe of the Crosse by Baptisme and by the Eucharist where making his manner of being with vs in the Eucharist distinct from his presence both by faith signe and grace doth shewe it to be a reall bodily presence which he teacheth most plainely vpon these wordes of the Psalme adore his foote-stoole concluding thereon Psal 98. that the same flesh which our Sauiour tooke of the blessed Virgin Mary was then and is nowe to be adored in the Sacrament therefore notwithstanding his being in heauen in forme of man he assuredly belieued his naturall body to be really present in the Eucharist So did S. Cyril another of M. PER. authours Libr. 12. cap. 31. who vpon S. Iohn auoucheth Christ by his flesh receiued in the Eucharist to sanctifie the soules and bodies of all communicants and to be wholy in euery one of them to vvhome I will joyne their equall S. Gregory of Nisse who saith Orat. de Paschate like as the God-head doth fill the vvhole vvorld euen so consecration is made in very many places and yet is it but one body so that by these worthy writers judgements Christes ascention to heauen doth not any whit hinder the reall presence of his body in the holy Sacrament And to dispatch here together that which M. PER. repeateth againe and againe that a true body cannot be in two places at once we plainely hold with the holy Fathers that one and the same body may by the omnipotent power of God be in as many places at once as it shall please him to set it That this hath no repugnance vvith true Philosophy shall be proued in the next argument And here by the warrant of Gods word I will proue that Christes body de facto hath beene in two places at once That since the ascension it sitteth at the right hand of God in heauen both we and they confesse but longe after his ascension Actor 9. he appeared bodily vnto S. Paul as he went towardes Damasco ergo his body hath beene in two places at once Caluin turneth himselfe on both sides seeketh all possible meanes to shift from the euidence of this place saying first In cap. 9. Actor Act. 22. vers 15 Act. 26 vers 16. that it was some voice only heard from heauen by S. Paul as at Christes baptisme but Christ was not there really This is said most manifestly against the plaine text God ordained that thou shouldest see the just one and heare a voice out of his owne mouth therefore he vvas really present and Christ saith to this end I appeared vnto thee And S. Paul himselfe vvitnesseth a 1. Cor. 3 vers 1.6 1. Cor. 15. vers 8. that he had seene Christ after his resurrection euen as the other Apostles had done which was in bodily presence in the same b Act. 9. vers 5. 4. Instit 17. § 29. chap. S. Paul demanded of him that appeared who art thou Lord and he answered I am IESVS was not he then present What can be more plainely set downe or is more often repeated in the very text of Scripture yet the blind obstinacy of Caluin was such that not being able to defend but that Christ appeared turneth himselfe the other way and had rather say that S. Paules eye-sight was so much strengthned and made so sharpe that it pearced through the heauens and did see Christ sitting there on the right hand of his Father and so Christ did not descend or was seene out of heauen but S. Paules sight mounted vp thether Reply This doctrine is first repugnant to himselfe vvho scoffeth at vs for maintayning that the Saints in heauen can heare our prayers 3. Instit 20. §. 24. and asketh howe they can haue so long eares and so sharpe eyes as to heare and see so farre off vvhich here notvvithstanding hee attributeth vnto a poore earthly creature nothing comparable to the Saints in heauen But besides that contradiction this his answere is much more absurde then the other For vvhome he imagineth to be so Eagle-eyed that he could see into heauen Act. 9. vers 8. the text vvitnesseth to be strooke starke blinde and not able to see the broad high-vvay before him Againe if that vision had beene through the vertue of S. Paules sight his companions should not haue beene partakers of it Act. 26. vers 13. Act. 9. vers 8. Act. 9. vers 17. but they did both see the light and also heard the voice though not so distinctly as to vnderstand it Further there passed many speaches betweene them Who art thou Lord What wilt thou haue mee to doe c. vvhich doth conuince a sensible and bodily presence Lastly it is said directly that Christ appeared vnto S. Paul in the way not that he had seene him in heauen so that nothing can be more certaine euen by the euidence of Gods vvord then that Christes body hath beene in two places at once as vvell may it be in two thousand or in as many more as it shall please God to imploy it for there is no greater repugnance in reason for being in many places then for being in tvvo at once S. Chrisost S. Ambros Primasius in cap. 10. And as you
we will demand at his handes We call vpon Christ for saluation and therefore must we first beleeue him to be a Sauiour we call vpon Saints to pray for vs therefore must vve before hand beleeue that they both can and will pray for vs and that they are able through the fauour and loue that God beareth them to entreate much at Gods handes see howe vve must beleeue in them vpon whom we call for helpe And the very phrase of beleeuing in Saints is vsed by the same a Ad Philemon v. 5. Apostle not vnlike that of the old Testament b Exod. 14 vers 31. The people beleeued God and his seruant Moyses M. PERKINS goeth on patching vp his former argument with that which hath small coherence with it to wit That we haue no promise to be heard but for Christs sake Admit it vvere so it maketh nothing against prayer to Saints for they pray for vs in Christs name and are heard for Christs sake Finally M. PERKINS fableth that we giue for our only warrant of inuocation of Saints miracles and reuelations and thereunto answereth that to judge of any point of doctrine by miracles three thinges must concurre First the doctrine of faith and piety to be confirmed Secondly prayer to God that some thing may be done for the ratifying of the said doctrine Thirdly the manifest edification of the Church by the two former What of all this good Sir Marry thinke what you vvill for he inferreth nothing I will therefore apply all this to the purpose and say first That vvhen a miracle is graunted by God to confirme any point of doctrine in controuersie then euery man is as vvell bound to beleeue that point of doctrine as if it were plainely recorded in the holy Scripture for it hath God to witnesse who cannot deceiue Secondly that S. Bernard a most Godly man and one whose testimony M. PER. doth very often alleage did fulfill all those three worthy obseruations of M. PER. in working of miracles to confirme inuocation of Saints and therefore it is to be beleeued of all men euen by M. PERKINS owne sentence For first he propounded inuocation of Saints Lib. 3. vitae cap. 5. as a doctrine of faith and great piety in the Prouince of Tolouse in France where it was by our Protestants Grandsiers the Albigenses denyed Secondly he blessed some certaine loafes of bread that were presented to him and prayed to God that if inuocation to Saints were pure doctrine of faith that then whosoeuer should taste of that bread might be cured of what disease soeuer he was sicke A Bishop that stoode by added yea Sir if they receiue them with good faith they shall be healed S. Bernard replyed I said not so but whosoeuer shall truly taste of them shall be cured that they may knowe vs to haue the truth and to be the true messengers of God And as it there followeth An huge multitude of sicke and diseased persons tasting of that bread recouered perfect health If we had no other argument then this it alone were sufficient to perswade any Christian that to pray vnto Saints is the true doctrine of Christ which God so expresly would confirme by miracles and testifie so euidently What would he beleeue that will not beleeue this But saith M. PER. miracles be to be done for Infidels and not for them who beleeue True it is and therefore was this miracle done to conuert or to confound such Infidels as our Protestants are vvho will not beleeue the inuocation of Saints Lastly saith he our faith is not to be confirmed by reuelations Luc. 16. vers 29. and apparitions of dead men but by the writings of the Apostles and Prophets What is this either to miracles or inuocation of Saints neither is that which he saith to be drawne out of those wordes of that parable as I will proue when it shall be neede Note by the way that twice in this question he himselfe citeth that parable of Diues and Lazarus for proofe of doctrine vvhich he afterward denyeth to be lawfull for vs to doe What our other groundes be for inuocation of Saints shall be declared in our arguments following M. PERKINS fift reason To pray to Saints departed to bowe the knee to them while they are in heauen is to asscribe vnto them that which is proper to God namely to knowe the hart and inward desires thereof and to knowe the speeches and behauiours of all men in all places on the earth at all times Answere This man doth too too broadly enlarge his lies for neither doe all men at once much lesse at all times pray vnto euery or any one of the Saints but suppose they did yet to heare all their prayers togither is nothing so much as to see that which euery Saint doth see in heauen to wit the one only substance of God in three persons for what are all the cogitations of men compared vnto the immense and incomprehensible nature of God not so much as the point of a pinne to the whole globe of the earth and yet euery Saint in heauen doth clearely behold God therefore much more able are they to heare and see all thinges that belong vnto men And as the learned Diuines knowe the man-hood of our Sauiour Christ doth see knowe and comprehend all the deedes wordes and thoughts of all men that haue liued since the beginning of the world vnto the end because it belongeth vnto him who is judge of all to knowe all aswell to reward the good as to punish the euill and yet doth no Diuine say that the man-hood of Christ is God or equall vnto God in knowledge Nowe the Saints in heauen doe not see the secretes of our harts in our harts but being present to the face of God doe behold in it as it were in a most cleare glasse all that is pleaseth the goodnesse of God to reueale vnto them and it is incident and belonging necessarily vnto their most happy estate to haue graunted to them all that in reason they can demande otherwise they were not so happy as they might be Now what good nature would not be glad to pleasure his owne fellowe members and deare friendes specially such as craue so much at his handes vvherefore it cannot be denyed of any considerate man but that God who satisfieth al their just requests doth ordinarily reueale vnto his dearely beloued Saints all the prayers that be made vnto them Surely S. Augustine in most expresse tearmes declareth De cura pro mort cap. 15. 16. That God can giue such power vnto his Saints and Martirs that they may be present in spirit at euery place throughout the world where there is any memory of them or prayer made vnto them He will not take vpon him to define whether they be actually there present or no or whether by the ministery of Angels they be relieued that seeke helpe by the intercession of Martirs but maketh no
question but that they heare all prayers made by vvhosoeuer to them and obtayne very many of their requests And as S. Gregory saith What doe they not see Lib. 12. Moral cap. 13. who see him that seeth all thinges yea contayneth all thinges within himselfe Yet M. PER. blusheth not to say that it is but a forgery of mans braine to imagine that the God-head is such a cleare glasse representing all thinges because it should then followe that the Angels who behold Gods face should be ignorant of nothing but the Angels haue learned some thinges of the Church as S. Paul witnesseth therefore they see not all thinges in God To this we answere that in God all thinges are represented and shine more brightly then in their owne naturall places yet doth not God communicate and reueale all thinges vnto euery body there present but his diuine nature in three persons Christ God and Man with all other naturall and ordinary thinges from the cope of heauen to the center of the earth are seene of euery Cytizen of heauen though with a different degree of clearenes but of Gods counsels concerning the gouernement of the world so much is only knowne vnto either Angell or Men as appertayneth vnto their state and that when it belongeth vnto them therefore the Angels might well not knowe many thinges belonging to the gouernement of the Church vntill they sawe it accomplished and therefore might be said to haue learned some such thing of the Church But as we haue said before it properly appertayneth vnto the state of Saints in heauenly blisse to knowe their friendes reasonable requests made vnto them or else their conditions should not be so perfect but that they might in equity require the bettering of it and consequently they could not be so throughly contented as their estate of perfect felicity in heauen doth demande and thus much of M. PER. reasons To which I will here adde one argument commonly vsed by the Protestants though M. PER. for the weakenesse of it perhaps thought best to omit it it is taken ab authoritate negatiuè which Schollers knowe to be naught worth Math. 11. vers 28. Christ saith come yee vnto me all yee that labour and be burdened and I will refresh you he saith not goe to the Saints but come to me I answere neither doth he say doe not goe to the Saints and therefore here is nothing against vs. We goe to Christ for remission of our sinnes which lye more heauy then a talent of lead vpon our backes and through our redeemers merits doe we craue pardon of them but to moue more effectually this our redeemer and God his father to haue pitty vpon vs we humbly desire the Saints his best beloued seruants to speake a good vvord in our behalfe acknowledging our selues vnvvorthy to obtayne any thing at Gods handes through our owne vngratefull wickednes Now that our Sauiour Christ IESVS doth very well like and approue the mediation of others euen to himselfe may be gathered out of very many euident texts of holy Scripture Math. 8. vers 13. for he at the intercession of the Centurion cured his seruant and * Math. 9 vers 2. seing the faith of them that brought a man sicke of the palsey before him he healed the sicke man and a Luc. 4. vers 38. at his disciples request cured S. Peters mother in lawe And vvhen the vvoman of Chanaan sued vnto him for her daughter b Math. 15 vers 23. he answered her not a word before his disciples had besought him for her by which and many such like recorded in the Gospell euery man that is not wilfully blinde may well see that the intercession of others for vs doth much preuaile euen with our soueraigne intercessor and mediator Christ IESVS himselfe nowe to his authorities Lib. 3. cōt Parmenia cap. 3. The first is out of S. Augustine Christian men commend each other in their prayers to God And who prayeth for all and for whome none prayeth he is the one and true mediatour I answere these wordes be rather for vs for approuing and confessing our Sauiour Christ to be the only mediatour of redemption as we haue already declared they teach that all Christians may commend themselues each to others prayers Nowe the Saints departed be Christians I trust as good as we or rather farre better therefor all other Christians may very well in S. Augustines judgement commend themselues vnto the Saints holy prayers because each one may commend himselfe to any others prayers Concerning the word Mediatour S. Augustine neuer attributeth it vnto any sauing only to our Sauiour taking it alwaies in the second signification aboue named to which three thinges are properly required according to S. Augustine first that he pray for all and that none pray for him which property M. PER. toucheth but misquoteth the place for it is in lib. 2. cap. 8. cont Parmenianum The second property and the most necessary of all is that he pay the full price and ransome of all our sinnes and that his redemption may in equall ballance counterpoise the grieuousnesse of our sinnes which is taken out of diuers places of Scripture The third which is the ground of al the rest is that the Mediatour be both God and Man that participating of both natures he may be as it vvere a naturall middle or meanes to reconcile the two Extreames and so as Man be able to suffer something to appease Gods wrath and as God to giue to that suffering of his man-hood infinite value making thereby Christs sufferinges more then sufficient to pay for the redemption of an hundred vvorldes if neede had beene And these proprieties gathered out of c Lib. 9. de ciuitate cap. 15. alibi S. Augustine and other Fathers will put downe M. PER. odde deuise of proprieties of a Mediatour all which make nothing against the intercession of Saints who be not in that sence to be called mediatours and yet cease not to pray for vs let vs then goe on M. PERKINS citeth secondly another sentence out of S. Augustine where he bringeth in our Sauiour saying Tract 22. in Iohan. Thou hast no whether to goe but to me thou hast no way to goe but by me Answere S. Augustine there alludeth vnto those vvordes of our Sauiour I am the way the truth and the life and saith that for life and truth vve haue no other way to seeke vnto but vnto Christ vvho according vnto his diuinity is truth and life vnto the vvorld And in this high degree of redemption and mediation he was the only way vnto his Father for neither the Gentiles by their morall vertues nor Iewes by the power of their law could without him leade them to God All this is very good doctrine but no whit more against praying to Saints then against commending of vs one to anothers prayers or vsing any other meanes of saluation as S. Augustine vpon
1. the newe to liberty And there they were as seruants we as heires they seruing vnder the weake and poore elements of this world we hauing the spirit of sonnes c. And the lawe had a shadowe of the thinges to come not the very Image as we haue so that nothing could be further from the Apostles meaning then to make the Iewes equall in Sacraments and graces with the Corinthians who were Christians But his intention was as may be easily seene by that vvhich goeth before and followeth to warne the Corinthians to chastice their bodies as he himselfe did as he saith in the end of the Chapter going before and to flie from all vice and not to rely only vpon the extraordinary gifts of God bestowed vpon them For saith he the ancient Israelites all were partakers of many singuler fauours of God as of the eating of Manna of drinking of the Rocke c. And yet because many of them committed fornication and liued wickedly God was not pleased vvith all of them Obserue also that not one thing there mentioned by the Apostle was a Sacramēt among the Iewes and therefore are they vnskilfully compared with our Sacraments For a Sacrament is a set ceremony to be vsed ordinarily in the vvorship of God but their passing through the red Sea was but once therefore no set ceremony their eating of Manna and drinking of the Rocke were but naturall refections to them yea their cattle did drinke of the Rocke aswell as their Masters vvhich thinges though they did prefigure our Sacraments yet were no Sacraments at all and much lesse any thing in vertue comparable to our Sacraments M. PERKINS sixt reason The Sabbaoth was made for man and not man for the Sabbaoth so it may be said that the Sacrament was made for man and not man for the Sacrament and therefore man is more excellent then the Sacrament the end being alwaies better then the thing ordained to the end but if Christes body be really in the Sacrament then is not man more excellent then it ergo Ans By the like argumēt you may as wel proue that the Sonne of God is not nor euer shal be incarnate for the redemption of man or els which is most absurd that man is better then God because for vs men for our saluation Christ descended from heauen was borne of the V. Mary The end then being alwaies better then the thing ordained to the end as M. P. argueth either Christ is not yet borne to redeme man or els man is better then Christ See what goodly arguments they vse to deceiue the simple withal the direct answere is that the maine principall end of Christs incarnation passion and reall presence in the Sacrament is the glory of Gods justice wisdome and goodnesse and of his owne mercy and bounty which are more excellent then Christes incarnation and reall presence mans redemption spirituall feeding and saluation are but secondary endes which are farre inferior vnto our most louing redeemers mercy kindnesse and charity through which he hath procured it M. PER. confirmeth this reason with that which is nothing like it saying Euer◠beleeuer in the supper of the Lord receiueth whole Christ God man though not the God-head vvhich wordes imply a manifest contradiction For howe can God or whole Christ be receiued without the God-head but by carnall eating we receiue not wholy Christ but only a part of the man-hood and therefore in the Sacrament there is no carnall eating nor reall presence Answ We Catholikes doe eate al Christes body wholy For we part not his body but beleeue that it is whole in euery cōsecrated Host Moreouer because his blessed body is a perfect liuing body vve knowe also that it hath bloud in it as other bodies haue and is yet further joyned vvith his most holy soule and so in receiuing his body we receiue all his man-hood both body soule Ouer and besides his God-head being lincked and joyned inseperably with his man-hood whole Christ both God and man is alwaies receiued together so that euery lay Catholike communicating but vnder one kind doth receiue Christs body bloud yea wholy both all his man-hood and God-head whereas in the Protestants naturall communion of bread and wine there is in deed neither body nor bloud not any peece of Christ but only in their owne phantasticall imagination so that those their ordinary out-cries are most fond The Papistes robbe you of the bloud being one part of the Sacrament Whereas Catholike Pastors giue to their flocke vnder one kinde both the body and bloud yea the very soule and God-head of Christ as you haue heard But the Protestantes are the great Theeues in deede vvho defraude their vnhappy followers of both body and bloud and giue them only sacramental signes and relations to feede their foolish phantasies Before I come vnto M. PER. last reason taken from authority I thinke it fittest to place here certaine other objections which out of place he hudleth vp together in the answere vnto our second argumēt where he saith first that Christes body could not be receiued in bodily manner before his passion We say contrarily that it could be as well before as after When he goeth about to proue his position he shall be answered Secondly That Christ was the Minister of this Sacrament and therefore if he had conuerted bread into his body he should haue taken his owne body into his handes vvhich we graunt following S. Augustine vpon these vvordes He was caried in his owne handes Conc. 1. in psal 31. Howe this may be vnderstood saith he of Dauid literally we finde not but we finde it in Christ for Christ was carried in his owne handes when deliuering his owne body he said this is my body For then he carried that his body in his owne handes M. PER. addeth yet further that it should also followe that Christ did eate his owne flesh for he did communicate also saith he to consecrate his last supper in his owne person This may be true though it haue no warrant in the word For S. Hierome a holy and most learned Doctor doth affirme it saying Epistol ad Hedibian quaest 2. our Lord Iesus is both the guest and the banquet he who doth eate and is eaten and no greater incōuenience is this in our opinion then in theirs For who more meete to receiue Christes blessed body then himselfe and vvhat more foolish then for Christ by faith to apply himselfe and his benefits vnto himselfe which as you haue heard before out of M. PERKINS is to receiue the Lordes supper like a good Protestant Lastly he auoucheth that if we eate Christes body really we must needes be man-slayers but he forgotte to proue it dixit abijt If other proofe fayled him he might haue fledde vnto the rusty opinion of the old farne Capernaites which is mentioned in the Gospell it selfe For they as S. Augustine expoundeth it thought that Christ would
he saith Lib. 20. coÌ„t Faust cap. 21. that Christian people doe celebrate the memory of Martirs with religious solemnity both to stirre vp imitation as also tâ—â—â— they may be pertakers of their merits and helped by their prayers notwithsâ—â—â—ding saith he to none of the Martirs doe we erect Altars but to the God of Martirs yet in the remembrance of Martirs For who of the Priests in the places of their holy bodies standing at the Altar hath said at any time we offer vnto thee Peter or Paul or Cyprian But that which is offered is offered to God who crowned the Martirs at the memories of Martirs that by the admonition of the very places a greater deuotion may arise to enflame our charity both towardes them whome we must imitate as also towardes him by whose helpe we may imitate them We therefore worship the Martirs with that worship of loue and society wherewith holy men of God in this life are worshipped c. but them with so much more deuotion as we are more assured that they haue nowe passed all perill of this life Obserue good reader howe many points of the Catholike doctrine are confirmed by this one passage of so worthy a Doctor First Altars are built at the Martirs bodies Secondly Sacrifice is offered to God at the memories of the Martirs to encrease our loue towardes them Thirdly Martirs are to be worshipped of vs more then any holy men liuing Fourthly That with religious honour and celebrity they are to be worshipped yet not with any Godly honour as by Sacrifice erecting of Altars or building of Churches to them vvhich seeme to be the only externall actes of religion proper vnto God alone M. PERKINS second testimony is taken out of Epiphanius who commandeth that none be adored but God alone Let Mary be in honour Haeres 79. but let God only be adored Againe Mary is holy and to be honoured but not to adoration Answere Who seeth not that this holy Father teacheth vs to honour and worshippe that blessed Virgin Mary and the other Saints Marry not with Sacrifice as he there disputeth against them vvho offered Sacrifice to the Virgin Mary or any other such like adoration vvhich is proper to God alone A third testimony M. PER. produceth against himselfe out of S. Cyril when Iulian the Apostata objected against the auncient Catholikes that which Protestants doe against vs nowe a-dayes that they worshipped their Martirs as God Lib. 9. 10. Cyril saith M. PER. answereth then plainely as we Catholikes doe nowe that Christians indeede did honour their Martirs but not with adoration and Godly honour His wordes are We affirme not our Martirs to be made Gods but we vse to bestowe all honour vpon them In primuÌ„ cap. Rom. The fourth and last testimony is borrowed out of S. Ambrose Is any so madde that he will giue to the Earle the honour of a King yet these men doe not thinke themselues guilty who giue the honour of Gods name to a creature and leauing their Lord adore their fellowe seruants as though there were any thing more left for God Answere S. Ambrose there inueigheth as S. Paul doth against Pâ—â—â—â— Idolaters that gaue the glory of God some to men their fellowe seruants some to fowles some to serpents and such like all vvhich is very farre vvide from the marke of the present question For he that condemneth men for giuing Gods honour to foolish or beastly creatures doth not reprehend them which honour and worship Gods seruants with such honour only as is due to them And thus much in confutation of M. PER. reasons against worshipping of Saints nowe to an argument or two in fauour of the Catholike party All men are to be honoured by the lawe of nature with such honour as is correspondent and due vnto their vertue and dignity which the Apostle confirmeth saying Rom. 13. vers 7. render to all men their due c. to whome honour honour c. but a kinde of religious and supernaturall honour and worship is due vnto the Saints in heauen ergo we are bound to render that their due worship vnto them That religious honour is due vnto them is most cleare to all that know vvhy honour is due vnto any man If honour be due vnto Nobility of birth as it is commonly holden the Saints are the Sonnes of God the most honourable Lord of heauen and earth If to be admitted to be one of a Kinges priuy Councell maketh a man honourable then the Saints are honourable 1. Cor. 13. vers 12. Apocal. 2. vers 27. who as S. Paul saith doe see God face to face and knowe him euen as they are knowne If to be aduanced vnto some high gouernement make a man honourable the Martirs whome Christ doth place to rule over Cyties and Nations are honourable Briefly if excellent vvisdome singular valour and such like heroycall vertues make men honourable as all men confesse then are the Saints in heauen most honourable vvho so farre exceeded in all such heroycall vertues of which the Philosophers vvrite all others as farre as heauen surpasseth the earth so that it remaineth most euident that the Saints are to be worshipped And as their excellent vertues doe proceede from a more noble fountayne then the nature of man to wit from the grace of God and doth therefore without comparison furmount all morall and ciuill either vertue or dignity so are they with a more spirituall and religious kinde of worship to be vvorshipped and reuerenced It may be said that albeit the Saints be so very honourable yet because they be of another region they are not to be honoured by vs that be strangers and foraigners to them but this objection S. Paul hath long sithence preuented who saith expresly to Christians Bretheren yee are not guests and strangers but Cytizens of the Saints Ephes 2. and houshold seruants of God If then one Cytizen be to reuerence another his better and one seruant another then are we to worship the Saints in heauen who are our fellowe Cytizens and seruants yea they are members of the same body of Christ of which we are though they be nowe in triumph for their lawfull fighting here and we yet in warrefare to attayne vnto the same triumphant estate Yea for the deare and mutuall affection vvhich is or should be betweene these two partes of the said Church S. Paul calleth that Hierusalem which is aboue our Mother Gal. 4. vers 26. and ought vve not to reuerence honour and vvorship our Mother thus much of our former argument grounded in reason Nowe to another taken from example which alone is more then sufficient to settle any good Christian in the faith of this point thus it may be propounded Both Iewes Pagans and Heretikes that is all sortes of vngodly and misbeleeuing men did finde great fault with the auncient true Christians for worshipping of Saints and their Relikes and called it Idolatry as
thereof Reply Why doth he then twice in this very question gather out of it first that Abraham was in heauen then that faith is not to be confirmed by apparitions of dead men vvhich are not the principall intent and scope of it but we must giue our newe Masters leaue both to affirme a thing when it seemeth to make for them and after to denie the same flatly when it beareth against them Lib. 2. in IouinianuÌ„ de cura pro mort cap. 14. lib. 4. dialog c. 29. We then say with S. Ambrose vpon that place vvith S. Hierome with S. Augustine and with S. Gregory the foure principall Doctors of the Latin Church that the story of Diues and Lazarus is a true hystoricall narration and not a parable of that which neuer was as by the proper names of Abraham and Lazarus and other circumstances they gather And vvhereas M. PER. objecteth against it That then it may be collected out of it that wicked men in hell haue compassion and loue to their bretheren on earth and zeale to Gods glory because Diues seemeth so to haue had I answere that there is no appearance of any zeale of Gods glory in Diues only he desired that some might goe out of that place of torment to aduertise his bretheren of it that they came not to him thither which was not out of any loue neither that he bare to his bretheren but for feare of his owne further torments if they came thither after him because he had giuen them euill example and encouragement to doe euill and perhaps euill counsell vvhen he liued vvith them and therefore was by their condemnation to receiue increase of his owne paynes so that his intreaty for them proceeded only out of the loue of himselfe and from the feare of more grieuous torments Nowe it being certayne that Abraham in heauen according to the Protestants opinion could heare Diues in hel much more easily can the Saints in heauen heare our prayers or any mans that dwelleth on earth Nowe after our doctrine who hold Abraham then to haue beene in Lymbo thus the argument must be framed If Abraham not yet indued with that perfect knowledge which the Saints in heauen haue could neuerthelesse heare Diues in hell betweene whome and himselfe there was magnum Chaos Ibid. 26. as the text hath a huge deepe darkenesse and great distance with much facility can the Saints who excell him being then in Lymbo in knowledge see and heare men liuing on the earth Our fift argument the Saints in heauen doe present vnto God the prayers of holy men liuing vpon the earth therefore they knowe the same prayers well in particular and embrace and recommend them to the diuine Majestie The consequent is manifest because no man can offer vp by word of mouth a petition if he knowe not what it is neither will any vvise-man such as the Saints be speake for he knoweth not whome nor what wherefore if the Saints doe present our prayers to God they doe knowe them in particular The antecedent is set downe in expresse tearmes in the word of God The 24. Seniours who sate about the throne of God fell before the Lambe hauing euery one harpes and golden vials ful of odours Apoc. 5. vers 8. which are the prayers of Saints M. PER. saith that these were their owne prayers and not other mens but vvithout alleadging either authority or reason We proue by the text it selfe that it must be vnderstoode of other mens prayers and not their owne because otherwise in due construction it should haue beene said Which are their owne praiers but the text saying That the odour of their vials were the prayers of Saints it distinguisheth plainely those Saints from themselues vvhich also the learned interpreters on that place Primasius and the Greeke schoole with Oecumenius doth confirme and testifie The former arguments were to proue that the Saints doe heare our prayers now the sixt reason shall be to meete with that out-cry of our aduersaries that forsooth vve robbe God of his honour and giue it to Saints when we pray vnto them thus God is more honoured by our worshipping and praying vnto Saints departed then if we did no worship vnto them nor prayed not vnto them at all but went immediately to God without their helpe therefore if it were for nothing else but for the greater honor of God we ought to worship Saints and to pray vnto them I proue the former proposition thus First we worship the Saints only for the supernaturall gifts vvhich God hath bestowed vpon them which must needes redound vnto the honour of the giuer as when I honour any of the kings officers it being principally because he is the kings officer the King himselfe is together and more principally honored and Christ saith expresly that hee that despiseth one of his seruants Luc. 10. vers 16. despiseth Christ himselfe Whence it followeth that he who respecteth and honoureth one of his seruants especially because he is his seruant doth together and in deed more principally honour Christ he and his graces being the very cause why vve respect and vvorshippe the other Further vvhen many and those of the vvorthyest sort doe become humble suitors vnto God for any one of vs much more honour is done vnto God through the dignity of their persons then if one meane silly sinner did sue to him alone For it is more honourable and magnificall to doe a pleasure at the instance and request of many vvorthy personages then where one poore worme alone doth sue for it yea and much more excellent thankes is rendred vnto God by the number and dignity of the suitors when their petition is graunted them This argument which is euident reason is grounded also vpon S. Pauls authority who requesteth the Christians of Corinth to helpe him in their prayers 2. Cor. 1. vers 11. That saith he by many mens persons thankes for the gift which is in vs may be giuen by many in our behalfe Seeing then that by our praying vnto the Saints they are drawne in to become suitors vvith vs and for vs and consequently obtayning their suite they stand aswell bound to render thankes to God therefore as we doe It followeth thereupon most euidently that God is by our praying to his Saints both more honored when such worthy persons sue vnto him for vs and also better thanked for that we doe obtaine by their intercession Now let vs close vp this question with the testimony of some of the moâ—â— ancient famous and best learned Doctors of both the Greeke and Latin Church Origen who liued not much aboue 200. yeares after Christ prayeth vnto that blessed paterne of patience Iob Lib. 2. in Iob. thus O happy Iob nowe liuing for euer with God and remayning a conquerour in the sight of our Lord and King pray for vs wreatches that the wonderfull mercy of God may also defend vs in all tribulations and deliuer
Lord doe not goe to Purgatory yet many others may Lib. 20. de ciuit c. 9. because according vnto S. Augustines judgement and the holy bretheren of Geneua this place is to be vnderstood of Martirs only who die for our Lord. And we that confesse Purgatory doe hold that no Martir doth goe thither but being as it were a new baptized in their owne bloud doe appeare before the face of God without any spotte whereas other ordinary good Christians be not free from all such staines and may also haue much penance at their death not performed which they must endure in Purgatory I say thirdly that if the vvordes should be applyed to all Christians that die in the grace of God yet is there nothing in them against Purgatory For the wordes following may well be spoken of them that goe thither because they both rest from their labours which they had in their former life and also enjoy an assurance of heauen without any such peril or hazard thereof as they liued in before and their workes may very well be said to followe them for that according vnto the rate of their workes they must endure the fire of purgatory either more or lesse Fourthly I may answere with S. Augustine on that place that they who die in our Lord from that time there spoken off Vers 13. shall goe to heauen Amodo dicit spiritus from thence forth saith the spirit they shall rest from their labours Nowe to see what time is there spoken off reade the seauenth verse of the same chapter where are these wordes Feare our Lord and giue him honour because the houre of judgement is come so that from thenceforth that is after the last judgement there shall be no Purgatory vvherefore M. PERKINS very cunningly clipped the word from thence-forth out of the text for feare of breeding some scruple and thus you see that the text of Scripture so highly esteemed by M. PERKINS serueth nothing for his purpose Nowe to some fragments which he citeth out of the Fathers Hom. 50. Tom. 10. Augustine saith well after this life there remaineth no compunction or satisfaction This same text he cited before in the question of satisfaction somewhat otherwise viz. homil 5. tom 10. both quotations are most imperfect for in that tenth Tome of S. Augustines vvorkes there are sixe seuerall kinde of Homilies to wit De verbis Domini De verbis Apostoli 50. homiliarum de Sanctis de Tempore de Diuersâ—s which of these he meaneth I knowe not and to reade ouer the 50. and fift of euery of them for one line I list not the man belike tooke it by retayle But it may most easily be answered euen by the very next wordes that he citeth out of the same authour Enchirid. 115. Here is all remission of sinnes here be temptations that moue vs to sinne lastly here is the euill from which we desire to be deliuered but there is none of all these thinges So that in this life only there is compunction that is true repentance and turning from all sinne with satisfaction or a purpose to satisfie and he that dyeth without this true repentance shall be damned there is no Purgatory for them but for such only as die with true compunction and with full purpose to satisfie for their sinnes either in this life or in the next De verbis Apost 31. M. PERKINS citeth another line out of S. Augustine We be not here without sinnes but we shall goe hence without sinne Of whome speaketh he trowe you vvhat of all sortes of men then none shall be damned Againe what is this to Purgatory for they that goe to Purgatory must before they die by true repentance obtayne pardon of their sinnes or else they shall not goe to Purgatory but to Hell Lastly I haue read the Homily ouer and find no such word there Heare by the way out of the same workes of that most venerâ—ble Doctor three passages for Purgatory and conferre them with those cited by M. PER. and then judge what his opinion was of Purgatory In that Treatise called 50. Homilies homil 16. he writeth thus This punishment of hell fire tarryeth for them who shal perish euerlastingly to whome it is said Math. 3. The chaffe he shall burne with vnquenchable fire But they who haue done thinges worthy of temporall punishment of whome the Apostle saith 1. Cor. 3. If any mans vvorke burne he shal suffer detriment but he shall be saued yet so as through fire of which also the Prophet speaketh and a fiery floodde did runne before him Dan. 7. They shall passe through a fiery floodde and horrible foordes of burning flames And according to the greatnes of the matter of sinne so shall their stay and aboade be there and as much as their former faults required so much shall the reasonable correction of the flame take of the man Is not this a plaine description of Purgatory The second out of his Enchyridion Neyther is it to be denyed Cap. 110. but that the soules of the departed are holden by the piety of their friendes aliue when for them is offered the Sacrifice of our Mediatour or almes are giuen in the Church for them But these thinges profit them who when they liued did deserue that these thinges might profit them for there is a certayne kinde of life neither so good that it doth not neede these after their death neither so euill but that these thinges will profit him after his death There is a life so good that it needeth not these thinges and againe another so euill that cannot be holpen with them c. The third out of the third Treatise cited by M. PERKINS de verbis Apostoli It is not to be doubted but that men deceased this life Serm. 34. are holpen by the prayers of the holy Church and by the comfortable Sacrifice and by almes which are giuen for their soules that our Lord doth deale with them more mercifully then their sinnes required those men then were in Purgatory Thus much by the way out of S. Augustine for a taste of his opinion touching Purgatory Nowe to the rest of M. PERKINS testimonies Cyril saith They which are once dead Lib. 3. in Esaiam can adde nothing to the thinges that they haue done but shall remayne as they were left and wayte for the time of the last judgement Here is such a citation as sendeth to no peece of his vvorkes yet nothing difficult to be answered if any such be for the very next sentence that he alleadgeth will serue to solue it which is out of S. Chrysostome who saith That after the end of this life there be no occasions of merit To both vvhich the answere is that a man after his death cannot merit any more because merit only belongeth vnto men while they liue after death they may well reape the due reward of their merits or else suffer just punishment for their
it said vvhatsoeuer yee loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen Therefore to no purpose were the keyes of heauen giuen to the Church we make frustrate the Gospell of God we make voyde the wordes of Christ finally we promise to our selues that which he denyeth vs c. See howe playnely and formally he so many hundreth yeares before hath confuted the Protestants shot-anker and only refuge of confessing their sinnes to God alone and assureth vs that it is a most vayne excuse and vvill not serue any mans turne vvhen as God himselfe hath set downe and decreed that he will pardon no man of his sinnes vvho doth not seeke absolution thereof from them to whome he hath committed the charge of that matter that is from Priestes And in right reason can there be any better bridle vnto our corrupt nature then the very shame and bashfulnesse of confessing our secret faultes vnto a learned good and graue man such as a Confessour is or should be Againe where true confession of sinnes is there men vse the best meanes that can be to driue them from the custome of sinning for besides the particular sorrow which they haue of their sinnes they must firmely purpose neuer to returne to any kinde of sinne afterward yea they must abstayne from all occasions alluring to sinne so that no man vsing wel this Sacrament of Confession can dwell in malice vsury leachery or any state of sinne Moreouer if they haue taken away the goodes or good name of their neighbour they are enjoyned in confession presently to doe their best to restore it backe againe These and many other great commodities being the inseperable companions of priuate Confession vve Catholikes doe attribute vnto the good vse thereof the greatest Godlines and deuotion that is amongst vs. And no maruaile though our common enemy doe so busily endeauour to withdrawe sinners from it amplifying vnto them the indignity and shame of it but if they would consider maturely that dying in their sinnes for lacke of due confession they shal be to their vtter shame and confusion made to confesse them all and euery one at the latter day before God all his Angels and Saints the Deuill and all damned soules being also present they would vndoubtedly make choise rather to confesse their sinnes to some one vertuous Priest vvho will neuer reueale them but in Christes name absolue and pardon them then to leaue them to that dreadfull day of Gods just judgements when besides the shame and confusion of them no pardon is to be hoped for And thus much touching Confession Lastly saith M. PERKINS The abuse of satisfaction is that they haue burned Canonicall satisfaction which was made to the congregation by open offendors into a satisfaction of the justice of God for the temporall punishment of their sinnes Behold here a most horrible prophanation of the whole Gospell Answere Behold here a most vngodly and sencelesse out-crye what doth the whole sanctity of the Gospell consist only in the point of our satisfaction it is too too absurd so to say And howe knoweth he that Canonicall satisfaction vvas only or principally to satisfie the congregation They that ordayned of old those Canons of satisfaction had a greater care to satisfie and appease the wrath of God justly incensed against such wicked offendors then to satisfie men but this prophane man very fondly dreameth that they rather sought to please men then God But of this matter there is a vvhole question in the former part there he that vvill may see howe all satisfactions are principally instituted to appease Gods wrath and that they doe apply vnto vs the satisfactions of Christ and make vs partakers of them and are besides most conuenient meanes to bridle out corrupt nature from all sorts of sinnes M. PERKINS to shewe that he vvas the same man in the end of his booke as in the beginning concludeth this part with a most palpable lie to wit That Priests are not put to death in England for their religion but for their treasons which they intend and enterprise Let their owne recordes be seene whether very many of them haue not beene condemned only because they are Priestes made after the auncient Roman manner without laying vnto their charge any enterprise eyther against the person of the Prince or peace of the State But what wil not a Minister auouch to disgrace poore Priestes vvho doe neuerthelesse not only pray but vvill be ready also to spend their bloud for the conuersion of men of his sort and for all others their deare country-men by them most pitteously seduced Hitherto M. PERKINS hath handled pointes of religion something like a schoole-man now like a pulpit-minister he goeth on with his text and maketh such an vnsauory glosse vpon it that it loathes me almost to looke on it yet because he raketh and heapeth togither all the most odious matter that he can deuise against vs I will giue it the whippe and hastily runne ouer it thus he beginneth Secondly out of the same text Goe out of her my people I gather Pag. 331. that the true Church of God is and hath beene in the present Roman Church as the corne in the heape of chaffe For though Popery ouer-spread the face of the earth for many hundreth yeares yet in the middest thereof God reserued a people to himselfe that truly worshipped him c. And this will serue the turne to stoppe the mouthes of Papists who demand of vs where our Church was one hundreth yeares agoe before the dayes of Luther We answere out of this text that our Church hath beene euer since the dayes of the Apostles and that in the very middest of the Papacy but it first beganne to shewe it selfe in Luthers time an vniuersall Apostacy hauing hidden it before for many hundreth yeares Answere Here is a proper peece of doctrine and proued as profoundly It is very ridiculous and absurd to say that their Church vvas in the Church of Rome for one that wil be both of their Church of the Roman must beleeue and professe not one or two but more then twenty articles flat contradictory the one to the other which is impossible Can a man at once beleeue the Pope to be head of the vniuersal Church and with-all sweare that he hath no authority in many Prouinces of it but that all Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction there belongeth to the Prince or that Christs naturall body is really present in the Sacrament and not really present and that Saints are to be prayed vnto and not to be prayed vnto nothing is more euident then that this cannot be no more could the Protestants Church be in the Church of Rome And if the Protestants vvould allowe them for theirs vvho beleeue most of the articles of the Roman faith contrary to their owne doctrine so that in some fewe points they doe agree and accord with them yet the Church of Rome wil neuer take them for any of her children who
doe not wholy and inuiolably hold all the points of faith that she professeth but renounceth them and declareth them to be accursed wherefore no Protestant can be in the Church of Rome But they say That their Church lay hidde in the Roman as corne in chaffe Did it in deede lie in such obscurity that none of them were to be seene or heard off therefore it was no Church at all for the most proper markes of the Church according to their owne principles are The true preaching of Gods word and the sincere administration of the Sacraments Nowe preachers of the vvord must be both seene and heard also and they walked not inuisible I hope vvho ministred and receiued their Sacraments wherefore they must either graunt that their Church in that generall Apostacy was visible or that it was no Church at all as not hauing the inseparable markes of their Church which are The true preaching of the word and due administration of the Sacraments Againe if they had beene liuely members of the true Church how could they liue vnknowne in that great Apostacy were they not bound in conscience to haue made profession of their faith publikely Rom. 10. vers 10. Math. 10. vers 33. S. Paul saith yea With the hart we beleeue vnto justice but with the mouth confession is made to saluation And our Sauiour saith He that shall deny me before men I also will deny him before my father which is in heauen If they were such crauens as made more account of their owne ease and safety then of the truth of their religion and glory of God they were rather cockle ouer-sowed by the enemy among the good-seede Math. 13. vers 25. then like vnto corne hidden in chaffe In vaine for them also vvas that voyce sent from heauen and recorded by S. Iohn which M. PER. taketh for his text Goe out of her my people for these dastardly faint-harted fellowes would giue no eare to it but loued better to hide their heades in some musty corner then vvith danger of their liues to separate themselues from those abhominations If then there vvere any such false harted dumbe and deafe reprobates hidden among others let the Protestants take them if they please for their worthy ancestors But no reason in the world to cal them the true Church of God that had neither true loue of Gods honour nor of their neighbours good and conuersion otherwise they would not haue holden their peace seing Gods holy name so miserably prophaned as they thought Thus much of M. PER. position nowe to his proofe If any man aske them where their Church was before Luthers dayes he answereth out of this text Goe out of her my people that it was euer since the Apostles dayes Let vs drawe this to some forme of argument that it may appeare how it hangeth togither A voice from heauen cryed in S. Iohns dayes to the Church of Rome Goe out of Babilon that is depart from the congregation of the wicked Heathens and Pagans therefore the Protestants religion hath beene euer since the Apostles dayes Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a newe paire of sizors for thy labour Should not a man leese his labour to confute particularly such a sencelesse discourse But yet a word to his next annotation vpon the text Demanding whether the Church of Rome he a Church or no he answereth That if it be so taken as in truth it is it is no Church at all His proofes are That it is Babilon that it peruerteth the true sence of the Scripture and ouerturneth the inward baptisme all which I haue heretofore confuted Here I will but demand whether this assertion of his doth not vndermine and blowe vp his former for if their hidden Church were no where but in the Roman for nine hundred yeares together and that Roman were no Church at all then surely their Church was not at all which had no being and existence but in the other which vvas not at all I may not here omit to note by the vvay vnto the gentle reader out of S. Augustine In illa verba ps 85. TV SOLVS DeVS MAGNVS Pag. 338. Howe they robbe Christ of his glory and inheritance bought with his pretious bloud who hold that his Church failed and was fled into corners Yea S. Hierome further affirmeth That they make God subject to the Deuill and a poore miserable Christ who hold that his body the Church may perish or be so bidden that it cannot be heard off Wherefore omitting such impertinent stuffe let vs come vnto those horrible crimes that he chargeth the Church of Rome withall The first is no lesse then Atheisme to vvhich I haue fully answered in the preface of this booke wherefore I doe omit it here doe come to the second crime of Idolatry Which saith he is as grosse among vs as euer it was among the Heathens See the foule mouth of a preacher howe proueth he this Marry it is to be seene in two things first they worship the Saints with religious worship which is proper to God O most impudent doe we make Saints creators of heauen and earth omnipotent infinitely wise and good or giue them any kinde of honour due vnto God only see that question and detest the sonnes of the Deuill that blush not to auouch such monstrous lies But we make the blessed Virgin Mary a Mediator of redemption Fie vpon such an impudent face but we call her a Lady a Queene be it so For so did Athanasius in Euang. de sanctiss Deipar apply those wordes of the 44. Psalme The Queene standeth on thy right hand in a golden vestement c. So did Gregory Nazianzene in his Verses of her For thou saith he ô Queene by the diuine fauour camest to me So did holy Effrem in his Oration to her all which liued within foure hundreth yeares off Christ To omit S. Chrysostomes Lyturgy because they like it not But what of this shee is a redeemer O sencelesse that shee is called a Goddesse as they did call the Queene Elizabeth then liuing I reade not in any of the bookes quoted by him Missal Breuiar A mediatresse of intercession our hope our life and the like shee may be called in a good sence because we hope through the helpe of her most gratious prayers to obtayne the life of our soules and so may it be said to her Prepare thou glory for vs defend vs from our enemies and such like to wit by the meanes of her prayers Againe saith he their Idolatry is manifest in that they worship God in at or before Images Then are the Protestants also Idolaters because they vvorship God in or at the Churches at or before their communion table Whether we haue commandement or not for Images maketh nothing to Idolatry but whether we giue to Images the honour only due to God which we doe not Nowe to compare Images to adulterers is to dote and deserueth no
them hold to be possible In colloq Marpurg art 29. Li. 1. cont Scargum cap. 14. as Zwinglius Oecolampadius Andreas Volanus c. Fourthly though we beleeue God to be maker of heauen and earth yet neuer none but blasphemous Heretikes held him to be true authour and proper worker of al euil done vpon earth by men Such neuerthelesse be Bucer Zwinglius Caluin and others of greatest estimation among the Protestantes See the Preface 2. And in IESVS Christ his only Sonne our Lord. They must needes hold Christ not to be Gods true naturall Sonne which denie him to haue receiued the diuine nature from the Father againe they make him according to his God-head inferiour to his Father See the Preface 3. Borne of the Virgin MARY Many of them teach that Christ was borne as other children are Dialog de corpore Christi pag. 94. De consil part 2. 276. with breach of his Mothers virginity as Bucer and Molineus in vnione Euangelij part 3. and Caluin signifieth no lesse in harmo sup 2. Math. vers 13. 4. Suffered vnder Pontius Pilate crucified dead and buried Friar Luther with a great band of his followers doth toughly defend that the God-head it selfe suffered which to be blasphemy Musculus doth proue in his booke of the errours of Luthers Schollers yet Beza with all them that hold Christ to haue beene our mediatour according to his diuine nature can hardly saue themselues from the same blasphemy For the chiefest act of Christes mediation consisteth in his death if then the God-head did not suffer that death it had no part in the principal point of Christs mediatiō Hither also appertaine all these their blasphemies to wit that Christ was so frighted with the apprehension of death that he forgotte himselfe to be our mediatour yea refused as much as in him lay to be our redeemer Item that he thought himselfe forsaken of God and finally despaired See the Preface 5. Descended into hel the third day he arose againe from the dead It is worth a mans labour to behold their goodly variety of expositions about Christs descending into hell 2. Apolog. ad Sanct. Beza followed of Corliel our Country-man thinkes this to haue crept into the Creede by negligence and so the French Hugonots and Flemish Gues haue cast it cleane out of their Creede but they are misliked of many others who had rather admit the wordes because they be found in Athanasius Creede and also in the old Roman Creede expounded by Ruffinus but they doe most peruersly expound them Caluin saith that Christes suffering of the paines of hell on the Crosse is signified by these wordes but he pleaseth not some others of them because Christes suffering and death also goeth before his descending into hel and the wordes must be taken orderly as they lie Thirdly diuers of them will haue it to signifie the laying of Christes body in the graue but that is signified plainely by the word buried Wherefore some others of them expound it to signifie the lying of his body in the graue three daies which M. PER. approueth as the best but it is as wide from the proper and literall signification of the wordes as can be For what likenesse is there betweene lying in the graue and descending into hell Besides Caluin their great Rabbin misliketh this exposition as much as any of the rest Lib. 2. Instit ca 16. sess 8. and calleth it an jdle fancy Fourthly Luther Smideline and others cited by Beza art 2. doe say that Christes soule after his death went to hell where the Diuels are there to be punished for our sinnes thereby to purchase vs a fuller redemption which is so blasphemous that it needes not any refutation As ridiculous is another receiued of most Protestantes that Christes soule went into Paradise which well vnderstood is true For his soule in hell had the joyes of Paradise but to make that an exposition of Christes descending into hell is to expound a thing by the flat contrary of it Al these and some other expositions also the Protestants haue deuised to lead their followers from the ancient and only true interpretation of it to wit that Christ in soule descended vnto those lower partes of the earth where all the soules departed from the beginning of the world were detained by the just judgement of God till Christ had paide their ransome and were not admitted into the kingdome of heauen before Christ had opened them the way thither 6. Concerning Christes resurrection they doe also erre For whereas a resurrection is the rising vp of the very same body that died with all his naturall partes they denie Christ to haue taken againe the same bloud Cal. in 27. Math. Perkins pag. 194. In cap. 24. Lucae which he shed in his passion and yet is the bloud one notable part of the body Caluin also affirmeth it to be an old wifes dreame to thinke that in Christes handes and feete there remaine the print of nailes and the wound in his side notwithstanding that Christ shewed them to his Disciples and offered them to be touched of S. Thomas 7. About Christes assension into heauen they doe somewhat dissent from the truth For some of them say that Christs body did not pearce through the heauens by vertue of a glorious body least they should thereby be compelled to graunt that two naturall bodies may be together in one place and therefore as well one true body in two places at once but that broad gappes were made in the lower heauens to make him way to the highest which is very ridiculous and more against true Philosophy they say also 1. Cor. 15. vers 21. Coll. 1 18. that he was not the first man that entered into the possession of heauen which is flat against the Scriptures that call Christ the first fruites and first begotten of the dead Thirdly they locke Christ so closely vp in heauen Beza in c. 2. actorum that they hold it impossible for him to remoue thence at any time before the last judgement for feare they should otherwise be inforced to confesse that his body may be in two places at once which is to make him not Lord of the place but some poore prisoner therein And as for Christs sitting on the right hād of his Father they are not yet agreed what it signifieth See Conrad L. 1. ar 25 de concor Caluinist L. 2. Insti c. 14. ss 3. Caluin plainely saith that after the later judgemēt he shal sit there no longer That God shal then render to euery man according to his workes as holy Scripture very often doth testifie al the packe of them doth vtterly denie 8. I beleeue in the holy Ghost First Caluin and his followers who hold the holy Ghost to haue the God-head of himselfe and not to haue receiued it from the Father and the Sonne must consequently denie the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne In the Preface as hath beene else where proued
Commandements For as all men skilfull in the true nature of lawes doe hold there can be no just lawe that is impossible to be kept by the greater part of them to whome the lawe is giuen because lawes are both to direct our actions and doe also bind euery man to obserue them Nowe what reasonable lawe-maker will beate his braine to direct a man to doe that which he knoweth before hand not to lie in the mans power to doe and as tyrannical should he be esteemed that would bind a man vnder a great penalty to doe that which he knewe to be impossible for him to doe Which two points S. Augustine doth in one sentence confirme saying De fid cōt Manich. cap. 9. Who doth not crie out that it is folly to giue him Commandements in whose power it is not to performe them and who doth not say that it is vnjust to condemne him for not doing just thinges when he could not doe them The Protestantes therefore affirming the Commandements not to be possible to be performed doe make them no lawes at all and so they at one blow doe beate downe al the tenne Commandements But let vs come to the particulers 1. The first Commandement as it forbiddeth vs to worship false Gods so doth it also include a commandement to worshippe a right the only true God which is done principally by Faith Hope Charity and Religion The Protestants by their peruerting of many articles of our beliefe as hath bin shewed haue lost the true faith and by their newe certainety of faith leaue no place for hope for they are past hope of saluation that make themselues so assured of it as they doe 1. Epist. 5. vers 3. And as for charity which S. Iohn defineth to be the keeping of Gods Commandements they must needes confesse themselues to be farre from it which hold that to be impossible and with the principall part of true religion which consisteth in offering a true reall and externall sacrifice vnto God as in that question hath beene proued they are at vtter defiance 2. Touching the second Commandement after our account as God is honoured by swearing in justice judgement and truth so is he also by vowes made vnto him of Godly and religious duties which the Prophet Dauid signifieth Psal 75. vers 13. when he saith vowe ye and render your vowes vnto the Lord your God Here-vpon many Catholikes haue and doe continually vowe perpetuall pouerty chastity and obedience the more fully and freely to serue God which holy vowes the Protestantes disalowe wholy neither doe they allowe of any other vowes for ought I haue heard they doe therefore diminish the seruice of God and pare away a part of that which is reduced to the second Commandement 3. And whereas in the third we are commanded to keepe holy the Sabaoth day which is principally performed by hearing attentiuely and deuoutly that diuine seruice which was instituted by Christ and deliuered by his Apostles which is the holy Masse they may not abide it but serue God after the inuētion of their owne braines with a mingle-mangle of some old some newe odly patched together 4. In the fourth we are commanded to obey our Princes as well as our parents and all other our Gouernours in all lawfull matters yet the Protestantes hold that our Princes lawes doe not bind vs in conscience 5. The fift Commandement teacheth that no man be killed by priuate authority yet Protestantes hold it lawfull to take armes euen against their lawfull Princes for the aduancement of their Gospell and haue in that quarrell killed and caused to be killed millions in Germany France Flanders and Scotland 6. The sixt forbiddeth adultery which is allowed of by Protestants in some case For they permit one party after diuorcement to marry againe the other yet liuing Mar. 10. vers 11. whereas our Sauiour saith Whosoeuer dimisseth his wife and marrieth another committeth adultery vpon her And if the wife dimisse her husband and marry another she committeth adultery Moreouer incest is also forbidden in this Commandement nowe by the Canons of the Catholike Church and the authority of the ancient Fathers it is incest for one Cosen germaine to marry with an other yet is it not seldome practised yea it is generally allowed of in the Church of England 7. The seauenth Commandement condemneth with theft vsury al withholding of our neighbours goodes which was gotten vnlawfully yet Protestantes commonly make no conscience to take tenne in the hundreth which is plaine vsury and as for restitution of euill gotten goodes it is cleane out of fashion among them 8. The eight probibiteth vs to beare false witnesse against our neighbour and yet doe Ministers the master Protestants in their pulpit where truth should only be taught most commonly beare such safe witnesse against Catholikes that the very stones may be astonished at their most impudent slanders to wit that Papists beleeue in stockes and stones that they will not be saued by Christ and his passion but by their owne workes that they robbe God of his honour and giue it to Saints and a hundreth such like most notorious and palpable lies Wherefore as they Preachers be guilty of bearing false witnesse so the auditors deserue to be seduced by them who hearing them to lie so shamelesly in some thinges will neuerthelesse beleeue them in others 9. and 10. Of the ninth and tenth I haue spoken already wherein they erre grieuously in teaching euery man to sinne damnably by hauing any euill motion cast into his minde by the Diuell albeit he resisteth it presently and forthwith chase it away In which conflict ouercomming of temptation the grace and power of God is perfited as S. Paul witnesseth and S. Iames calleth the allurement of concupiscence temptation only and then first sinne when it conceiueth that is getteth some liking of the party Nowe to conclude this passage if you please to heare to what height of perfect obseruance of the Commandements the Euangelicall preachers haue brought their followers in Germany vnto by teaching the Cōmandements to be impossible and that only faith justifieth that good workes haue no reward in heauen and such like Iacobus Andreas a famous Lutheran shall enforme you who writeth thus De Planetis That the whole world may see these men alienated from the Papacy and to put no confidence in workes therefore they doe no good worke at all In stead of fasting they feast and are drunken day and night in lieu of Almes they oppresse pil the poore they haue changed praying into cursing blaspheming the name of God so prophanely that no Turkes nor Saracens commit the like impiety against Christ for humility there raigneth pride disdaine cruelty and riotte in apparell c. and much more to the same purpose And that this truth may be cōfirmed by the testimony of two sound witnesses Musculus a man of no small account among them thus reporteth of his Bretheren in the Lord.