he could find used by Presbyterians to prove the power and authority of Ecclesiastick Government to be in the hands not of the people but only of the Church Officers I cannot think he will say so if he has been at the pains to Read them Why then has he passed others in silence if he minded to give his rationall Readers satisfaction touching his Tenet in this Question We refer the Reader to see these touched at by the Author here more pregnantly managed and others besides them in Jus Divin of Church Government part 2. c. 10 and c. 11. Sect. 2. Gul. Apollon Considerat of certain Gontrov c. 4. Spanhem Epist to David Buchan q. 2. Mr. Ruth Peaceable Plea and Due Right Now come we to Mr. Lockiers second Assertion SECTION VII Mr. Lockiers 2. Assertion touching Presbyteries of many particular Congregations combined whether Classicall or Synodicall and their power considered and the true state of the Controversie touching this matter between Presbyterians and Independents layed forth section 1 IN the former Assertion the Author would throw the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven the power of the Government of the Church out of the hands of them whom Christ has appointed to be Rulers over the Church his Officers to put the same in the hands of all and every one of the people And in the second he would so put them in the hands of one particular Congregation may be of seven or ten persons For of so many may a Church be compleatly constitute by their way as that they shall exercise all that power even to the highest acts thereof Independently as the supream Tribunall in Ecclesiastick Government under Jesus Christ upon earth So as that if there should be any errour committed by such a particular Congregation suppose the greatest errour or heresie in Doctrine maintained by it or a man unjustly Excommunicated and casten out of the Church there is no Ecclesiastick authoritative remedy under Heaven to redresse such an errour No Ecclesiastick Judicatory to which a grieved person may have recourse by appeal for Authoritative recognition or redresse of his grievance But see we his Assertion section 2 That Presbyteries or Elderships without the particular Congregations exercing authoritative and coercive power over it are an invention of man Having thus propounded his Assertion He explaines the subject of it thus By Presbyteries or Elderships without the Congregation I mean such an Eldership as is chosen out of severall particular Congregations assuming to themselves superiour and decisive power over them Afterward he calls it forrain Eldership SECT 20. And so forth in the rest of his Book And then again undertaking to explain the nature thereof sayeth I find among our Brethren themselves that Elders and Brethren sent and impowered from their severall Congregations respectively to transact and conclude such and such Ecclesiastick affairs within such a limited bounds ex sua potestate are a forrain Presbytery A note or two upon these things and then we shall more clearly and distinctly set forth the true state of the Controversie and what is our Doctrine therein 1. Whereas he propounds to himself to Dispute against the Authority of an Eldership or Presbytery without the particular Congregation i. e. as he calls it afterward forrain to the Congregation he but enters in a conflict against his own fiction And whereas he sayeth SECT 20. that he finds amongst their Brethren he means Presbyterians that a Presbytery sent from severall Congregations is a forrain Presbytery I humbly conceive for ought I can remember of any of them he wrongs them exceeding much I do not remember of any Presbyterian that acknowledges the Presbytery of severall Congregations associat in Government to be a forrain or extrinsecall Presbytery to these Congregations Nor is it so indeed It cannot be called a forrain Presbytery to all the Congregations associat under it Because it is made of their own severall Elderships Nor yet can it be forrain or externall to any of them Because every one is a part of it and in it as a part of the whole As a Parliament cannot be called a forrain Judicatory to the whole Kingdom whereof it is the Parliament nor unto any of the severall Cities or Counties which are parts of the Kingdom and are in the Parliament by their Deputies or Commissioners as parts constituents thereof Indeed the Prelate and his Cathedrall consistory taking to themselves the Government and Jurisdiction over all Congregations in the Diocese were an externall forrain Judicatory to these Churches because they excluded the other Congregations and their Elderships from all collaterall concurrence and copartnership with them in the Government But the Presbytery we speak for is made up of the Elders of the severall Congregations which it governs as intrinsecall collaterall parts constituent thereof and therefore cannot be called forrain to these severall Congregations 2. When as he expresseth the power of these Presbyteries against which he propounds this dispute under the name of coercition calling it a coercive power He seemeth on purpose to choise an odious word to render it suspicious by the very name For the word of coercing in the common use mostly seemeth to import outward bodily or civill force exercised upon persons or things to stop and represse their actions ipsis etiam renitentibus we ascribe no such power unto Presbyteries But a power of executing spirituall censures which have no externall force upon persons yea nor Physicall neither but only Morall as administred by the Eldership Tho they may be accompanied by God With a Physicall I mean a reall operation upon the persons either in mercy or judgement And if at any time those who are for Presbyteries over more Congregations speaking of their power call it coercive they mean no other thing but a power of Spirituall jurisdiction exercised in Spirituall censures such as the Author himself and these of his way attributes to particular Elderships of a single Congregation together with the Congregation over every member thereof If the Author had dealt ingenuously with us he should not used such a word without explanation of the thing he knoweth we mean But now let 's see the clear state of the controversie in this mater section 3 The subject in generall whereupon the Question runneth between us and the Independent Brethren is a Presbytery or Eldership of more Congregations then one Concerning which there are some things confessed and uncontroverted where of we should take notice in the first place that we may the better see where the difference and contoversie lyeth 1. 'T is confessed by our Brethren themselves that consociation of more particular Churches or Congregations in one Presbytery or Eldership is lawfull and usefull Hooker Surv. p. 4. c. 1 2. 2. That these consociations are and may be of severall sorts and degrees some lesser some greater Classes Synods and these Provinciall Nationall Oecumenicall Idem Ibid So then there is no controversie about the being simply
There seemeth to me in Mr. Lockiers words here somewhat very like the Arminian apostacy of Saints while you hold fast saith he the practice and power of what you professe and when you let it go c. is he indeed of this judgement that men may have the practice and power of godlinesse and afterward let it go If he say he meaneth of such as have had it so far as men could judge c. well this qualification if in any place should have been mentioned here where without it there might be so readily an apprehension of apostacy from true grace But tell me doth the Apostle when he saith if ye hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of hope firm unto the end mean thus if ye have and hold fast these things so far as men can judge What vestigium of this appeareth in the Text Nay is not the Apostle in that whole Chapter speaking of grace to be performed and held fast in veritati rei * Which if he wil have to be the requisite qualification of the matter of of the visible Church in the Ecclesiastick Court he may as soon get a Visible Church as a new World in the Moon or Mr Mores Vtopia in very deed Was there ever any Interpreter that expoundeth him otherwise SECTION IV. The Authors Texts which he calls hints and shadows of his Doctrine section 1 THe first is Mat. 16. on which place the Author thus note these things 1. That Christ doth not speak here of the Invisible Church For he speaks of the power of the keyes binding and loosing on earth the Invisible Church is the greatest part in heaven and they which are in earth considered as one with them as one intire universall Body whereof Christ is the Head are not capable of Visible and limited Discipline therefore I judge we are to gather from Christs Words that he speaks by way of anticipation of that visible order which he did purpose to institute after his departure by his Apostles whereof Peter was one 2. Observe of what mater he saith this building should be viz. of such as have a faith which flesh and bloud cannot reveal and to a body thus constitute is the power of the keyes and both these represented and personated to us in Peter I do not find the learned and Orthodox of latter times apply this place to the Invisible Church and I think I am not then a forcer of the Scripture in the sense I gave of it section 2 Answer I wonder much how this has fallen from the Authors mouth and Pen that he saith he doth not find the learned and Orthodox of latter times to apply this place to the Invisible Church Do not all the learned and Orthodox Writing against the Papists on the Controversie of the Church refute the Papists expounding it of the Visible Church and prove it to be understood of the Invisible Church and every member thereof and do not the learned Orthodox commonly Writing against the Arminians upon the controversie of perseverance apply it to the Invisible Church and use it as one of the prime Arguments for proving the certain finall perseverance of true Beleevers See these noted on the Margin Whittaker de Ecclesia centies notentur praesertim illa loca q 1. c 1. Ecclesia aliquando totum corpus electorum fidelium sanctorum significat ut cùm in Symbolo dicitur Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam sic in hoc loco Math. 16. 18. c. 13. par 1. per tot q. 2. c. 1. he propoundeth the Question with the Papists thus De Ecclesiâ in Petra aedificatâ quaeritur inter adversarios nos sitne visibilis an invisibilis And part 3. he determines according to the Protestant Doctrine that it is invisibilis c. 2. Bellarminus dicit Calvinum non potuisse unum Scripturae locum proferre ubi nomen Ecclesiae invisibili Congregationi tribueretur Resp inquit falsum hoc esse nam Ecclesia aliquanâ—o invisibilem Congregationem significat ut in hoc ipso loco quem tractamus Super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam q. 3. c. 2. §. 2. 2 â— Adversargumentum sumitur ex iis locis in quibus nomen Ecclesiae expersse ponitur ut Math. 16. 18. 1 Tim. 3. 15. in utroque loco inquit Adversarius agitari de Ecclesia visibili tamen ipsam veritatem audivimus asserentem portas inferorum non praevalituras Resp inquit Whitt illam quidem Ecclesiam de qua loquitur Christus nunquam posse deficere sed quod assumit illam Ecclesiam de qua loquitur Christus esse visibilem illud affirmo esse falsissimum Here is a plain and round contradiction to M â— Lockiers note upon this place Joan. Alsted suppl Chamier de Eccles nat l. 1. c. 17. par 2. Resp 2. Duo ista loca N. Math. 16. 18. 1 Tim. 3. 15. agunt de Ecclesia Catholica invisibili seu interna quae constat ex solis bonis neque enim Ecclesia visibilis quae constat ex bonis malis est fundata super Petram Anton. Wall Loc. Com. de Ecclesia militant on the question An Ecclesia possit errare in Ans to the 2d. Obj. of Papists upon this place Math 16. 18. Negamus inquit hunc locum esse intelligendum de Ecclesia visibili sed universali invisibili cui proprie competit haec firmitas insuperabilis The Orthodox in Colloq Hagien and Amesius in his Coron presse it as a prime place for the perseverance of Saints We might instance very many moe but we need not the thing is known to all acquainted in Orthodox Writers Nay some eminent Papists themselves have acknowledged that is spoken not of the Visible Church but of the Invisible Ferus non loquitur de Ecclesiâ ut communiter sumitur pro his qui Christiani dicuntur sive boni sint sive mali sed de Ecclesiâ secundum Spiritum quae solos electos complectitur So Cajetan on the same place Adversus Ecclesiam quae constat ex Congregatione fidelium unâ side spe charitate c. Mr. Lockiers reason brought to prove that it is not spoken of the Church Invisible is but weak which will appear the better if it be put into form for it is somewhat confusedly propounded by himself as I conceive it may be thus That Church is understood here which is capable of visible limited Disciplin but the Church Invisible is not capable of this Therefore c. Ans 1. How is the Major or first Proposition proven By insinuation thus He speaks of the power of the keyes binding and loosing on earth What thence Ergo he speaks before of such a Church as is capable of visible limited Discipline If I deny the Consequence how will he prove it I do not see it nor think he shall ever be able to make it out 2. But to passe the Proposition let 's see the proof of the Assumption The
Invisible Church is the greatest part in Heaven and they which are in earth as one with them as one entire universall body whereof Christ is the Head are not capable of c. Ans 1. That part of the universall Church which is in Heaven is impertinently brought on the stage here Christ is speaking of those that are yet to be built or are a building therefore we say He is speaking of such as are on earth 2. Albeit that part of the Invisible Church that is on earth be not capable of visible and limited Discipline formally considered as such i. e. as the Invisible Church nor yet collectively considered as one intire body yet the Invisible Church materially i. e. these that are the Invisible Church being also a part of the Church visible and considered distributively in parrs may be capable of visible Discipline David Peter John and the rest who make up the Church Invisible as they are also outward Professours with others are capable of visible Discipline O! then you will say why Are they not spoken of here I will build my Church as they are a visible Church Ans It doth not necessarly follow for to persons standing under diverse considerations one thing may be attributed according to one consideration and another according to another section 3 As to his 2d. Observation 1. It is contrair in it self to Truth that the visible Church is to consist only of such as have a faith he means fidem quâ creditur or taken subjectivè for we shal grant it of faith quae creditur or taken objectivè which flesh and blood cannot reveal i. e. true saving faith The Church may consist of such as have not that faith and the Author addeth not here his qualification of so far as men can judge neither can it be admitted here 2. Qualifie it as he will it is a meer violenting of the Text sundry Interpretations by diverse have been given on these words Vpon this Rock will I build my Church but I think few or none ever before our Author gave such an interpretation as this The visible Church shall be constitute only of such as have true saving faith in them so far as men can judge Certainly whether we take the Church Invisible or the Church Visible to be meant here under the name of the Church Mr. Lockiers sense cannot have place For 1. Understanding by the name of Church the Church Invisible in that sentence Vpon this Rock will I build my Church Christ is not speaking of gathering and constituting a certain incorporation or society in the state and condition of such an incorporation or society and how persons of whom it is to be made up must be antecedently qualified that they may be capable of admission to be constituent members thereof but speaking of his own act of efficacious grace put forth in deed with the Ministry of the Gospel upon the hearts of some persons whom he cals his Church because they are called out from amongst the rest of the world to himself which doth not suppose them antecedently having faith and taking them as such state them in a society But indeed is the very giving to them that faith and stating them in an impregnable condition of grace and salvation Whether by this Rock we understand that faith which Peter confessed or Christ the object of that faith or Peter himself considered in regard of his Ministry of the Gospel or the Gospel Preached by him as some of the Orthodox do certainly this is the meaning of building the Church upon the Rock supposing that which I do incline most to with the most part of Reformed Divines that by the Church is meant the Church Invisible 2. If by the name of the Church here be understood the Church Visible as some later Orthodox Divines have expounded it namely judicious and learned Hudson in his acurate and elaborate Vindication of the Essence and Vnity of the Catholick Visible Church Yet it will little avail Mr. Lockiers purpose 1. Because it is a particular Congregation and the qualification of members to be admitted thereunto that he is speaking of all along under the name of a visible Church But supposing this place to speak of the visible Church it cannot be understood of a particular visible Church or Congregation but must of necessity be understood of the Catholick visible Church because it is such a Church as is to stand firm and impregnable that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it but any particular Church may be prevailed against 2. Taking the name of the Church so here the meaning of the whole sentence upon this Rock I will build my Church is nothing else but this as the learned Author but now cited well observeth that the Profession and Doctrine of this Truth that the Messiah is already come that this Jesus is the Messiah this Jesus the Messiah is the Son of God the Doctrine and confession that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh 1 Joh. 4. 2 3. and the beleeving that I am he saith Christ Joh. 8. 24. is the foundation whereon the Church of the New Test is to be built out of all which nothing more can follow as to the qualification of members of the visible Church of the New Test then this that when as the Jews under the Old Test beleeved in an indefinite Messiah to come now under the New Test none can be of the Christian Church but such as beleeves and confesses that the Messiah is come c. Now I appeal to all the Orthodox World if Mr. Lockier his commenting upon this place be not a forcing of the Text. As for what he addeth that to a body thus constitute i. e. a Visible Church so constitute as he hes been saying is the power of the keyes given and both these represented and personated to us in Peter To passe I cannot well understand how it can be said that the power of the keyes could be represented and personated in Peter possibly the Church might be represented and personated in him This belongeth not to our present Question and therefore we passe it now trusting with the Lords assistance afterward to evidence that both assertions viz. that the power of the keyes were given to a Church Visible I mean the collective Church and so to it is as the subject and that Peter in receiving them here did represent and personat the Church are groundlesse section 4 The next shadow or hint is Rev. 11. 1 2. And there was given me a Reed c. Hereupon the Author maketh much adoe 1. He layeth down grounds by Interpreting particulars in the words 1. Saith he by the Temple is meant the Visible Church the state and welfare of which though most infested of any publick condition shall not be left and ruined but be carefully looked to and raised from its corruptions intrusions and ruines made by unsound men This is confirmed by a Testimony of Marlorat hunc in
Author to the Hebrews saith and made Jews inwardly a holy Nation according to inward call and choise and so a spirituall Priesthood section 11 Answ 1. Here again we are to mark the Conclusion that Mr. Lockier would be at touching the mater of the Visible Church such as are all indeed from above as have indeed an internall consecration the Law given into the mind made Jews inwardly an holy Nation according to inward choise and call Here indeed is an Anabaptisticall model of the Visible Church all reall saints and not in the judgement of charity only Mr Lockiers so far as spirituall men can judge as it is wholly left out by himself so it cannot well be admitted to have any place here 1. Because he saith they are all indeed from above and have indeed an internall consecration that indeed I think to every mans apprehension noteth veritatem rei in se or judicio veritatis as they call it as contradistinguished a judicio charitatis of spirituall men 2. Because that place Heb. 8. 10. cited from Jer. 31. 33. brought in by him for confirmation of his purpose he is speaking of of the impertinency whereof to the purpose in hand I mean the constitution of the Visible Church we shall speak presently speaketh of truth and reality of grace in the heart I may say in the very judgement of God himself under which there is no possibility of mistake But to the grounds he goeth upon from this Text. 2. He taketh for granted that this whole Chapter is taken up to shew the state of the Visible Church in its constitution as such and that it is the Spirits intention in the vision set down in it to give unto John a patern thereof to be a rule to him and others then and succeeding ages for regulating the constitution of it and particularly in the point of Church-members but why did he not assay some proofe of this Must we take every thing upon his bare assertion 'T is true Learned Brightman in his commentary conceiveth that this vision containeth a common Type of the holy Church in all ages But 1. In all the progresse of his commentarie on that Chapter I find not any evident passage pointing at any particular in the vision as a patern type or rule concerning the qualification of such as are to be admitted in the external fellowship of the Visible Church as the homogeneall parts of the outward visible body 2. Though I will not stay here to examine the intent of all the particulars in that vision and though I esteem much of the judgement of that learned and pious man yet in the generall I must say I find no convincing argument nor much appearance of any argument at all brought by him to prove that the intent of the vision was to give John a patern a certain portraicture or resemblance of the Church whereby we might know which is she Yea albeit I confesse sundry particulars in the vision are things of the Church in the Interpretation whereof I would not much disagree from Brightman yet I think he is mistaken in taking that for the generall intent and purpose of the vision and conceives that John being now to receive a new Propheticall Revelation concerning these things that were to come to passe in and upon the Church from that time to the end of the World ver 1. fin The intention of the vision of this Chapter is to describe and set forth the Glory and Majesty of God the Father the first Author of the Prophesie as in the next Chapter is described the Son the Mediatour and subordinate Author thereof as it is ordinary when the Lord is to communicate to his Prophets and by them to the Church Propheticall Revelations of great things to come to passe concerning the Church to present by way of preparation some glorious representation of himself as we may see Esay 6. and Ezek. 1. See these words of the learned and judicious Gomarus upon that Chapter on the Margin * Sequitur to wit from v. 2. descriptio Authoris Coelestis partim ratione visaeillius Majestatis partim praeceptae honorationis ejusdem Cujus descriptionis scopus est primum commendatio apocalypseos ex Authore Caelesti deinde Ecclesiae in fide timore Dei ac patientia confirmatio ex Majestate honoratione illius promanante Quae describuntur opportune nam revelandum est hoc libro mysterium status Ecclesiae afflictissimae c. so Gomar And certainly had it been the purpose of the Spirit by this vision to hold forth a patern portraicture and resemblance of the true Church common to all ages least because of troubles and disturbances we should either think it utterly extinguished or at least through ignorance of her right form and figure we should be lesse able to know which is she as Mr. Brightman saith it seemeth the wisedom of the Spirit of God would have portraicted the figure and form of the Church in these things that are most substantiall in the constitution of it so as Christians of ordinary capacitie might been able to discern take up the true Church by but Mr. Brightman himself is even troubled to find what things are meant by every particular in the vision And in some he bringeth but meer conjectures yea and likely is mistaken as could we stay might be very probably shown as for example in his Exposition of the sea of Glasse like Christall before the Throne 3. But what is the particular in the vision from which Mr. Lockier deduceth his conclusions this viz. that it was in Heaven he saw it a door was opened in Heaven and the Throne was set in Heaven this saith he was to shadow that the worshippers should be indeed from above c. and to make it the stronger it is confirmed by a comparison of what was done with Moses Moses had his patern upon the Mount nigh Heaven c. Answ 1. Here is a thing begged for a ground that as Moses was taken up to the Mount to get a patern of these things which he was to appoint in the ancient Church so Iohn is here taken up to get a patern of the Visible Church and the things to be ordered in it under the New Test This I say is groundlesly supposed For these things that were to be done by Moses were but now a instituting and to be first set up and therefore it was necessary that he should have a patern of them represented to him to regulate him but ere the time of this revelation Christ had fully instituted all particulars belonging to the Church of the New Testament and many Churches through the World were already actually setled and ordered according to that institution and beside sundry of the Books of the New Test written wherein the institution and rule was already plainly written down and this indeed is one reason which inclineth me to think that the scope and intention of the Spirit
the duty of his servants to cast out all such in the Visible Church as they did see not to be qualified not gracious converts which is flatly contrary to that which is supposed in the antecedent Now I assume that the antecedent is clearly held forth to us in these places 1. 'T is clear that in these places he holdeth forth the Visible Church in its outward constiâ—ution as to the mater thereof to be a mixed society of good and bad truely gracious and such as are void of true grace and not only this but 2. That not only he permits it to be so untill the last day But also 't is his will and he commands his servants to permit such to abide in the Church as even to their discerning are bad leaving the separation of them to himself at the last The servant said unto him wilt thou then that we go and gather them up Yes would Mr. Lockier say leave not one of them No not one of them in a Visible Church they are where they ought not to be they want the complexion of the Visible Church c. But sayeth the Lord himself Nay but let both grow together untill the Harvest section 33 Object If it shall be objected against this exposition and application of this place that hereby it should follow that any prophane ones ought to be permitted to be members of the Visible Church which in consequence is contrary to Christs institution of Ecclesiastick Discipline enjoyning incorrigible offenders to be casten out and Excommunicat and that therefore by these tares must be understood latent hypocrites which may be such in appearance as may charitably be judged by men true beleevers Answ It cannot be that such latent hypocrites as these only are understood Why They are such tares as are seen and known by the servants they must therefore be such as falls into sins and whose badnesse is obvious to the senses of others yet there is no contradiction between this of Mat. 13. 29. so understood and that of Mat. 18. vers 17. We may say as Augustine on the same places against Donatists Domino in Euangelio dicenti in illo obtemperare debemus ubi ait si neque Ecclesiam audierit sit tibi tanquam Ethnicus Publicanus in illo ubi prohibuit colligi Zizania ne simul eradicetur triticum potest enim utrumque custodiri The reason is because they may well be conceived to speak not adidem in respect to these same sort of persons The command of Excommunication is against such notorious offenders as to their offences adde contumacie against the Discipline of the Church or at least if it be further to be extended whose offence is atrocious these that offends these wayes whether they be tares gracelesse men or indued with true saving grace But there may be sinfull livers in the Visible Church seen to be such by the servants who falls not under either of these two sorts section 34 The Doctrinall notes which the Reverend Mr. Dickson hath upon that Parable Mat. 13. 24. c. are worthy the reading and consideration to this purpose we are on and they are genuine and naturally flowing from the place The Book is common so that I need not transcribe all I shall but bring two or three of them for such as may be has not the Book at hand 1. The externall Visible Church is worthy to be called the Kingdome of Heaven even in respect of the externall constitution of it in the world notwithstanding the wicked hypocrites in it because therein Christ rules as King and hath his Subjects all professing him to be King of Saints 4. It is mater of grief and offence to see in the Church of Christ so many unprofitable weeds 5. The rash zeal of servants before they consult their Lord and Master is ready with the hazard of the Church and true members thereof to have such a constitution of the Visible Church as they should suffer none to be a member who are not inwardly Regenerat But have all others of whose inward Regeneration they are not assured plucked from among Professours 6. The Lord although he hath given order to censure scandalous offenders yet he discharges his servants to presse towards such a separation as to have all weeds and wicked in heart to be cast out Least while they gather out the gracelesse tares they should root out also the gracious wheat with them For it is not possible for any man to discern the renewed from the unrenewed so clearly but he may be mistaken 8. The mixture in the Visible Church Christ the Lord is minded to permit and commands to be permitted till the day of Judgement and then but not till then shall a full separation of the godly and the wicked of the Elect and Reprobat be made In the time of Harvest I will say gather the Wheat c. See also his note on the ver 47. This Parable teacheth us that the Visible Church in the way of gathering members and in the manner of constitution thereof it is like a draw-net taking in all who professe subjection to Christ and his Ordinances good and bad true and false Professours for it gathereth of every kinde to wit whosoever professe faith in and promise subjection to Christ section 35 Argument 8. The Doctrine which excludes the Infants of Christians from being members of the Visible Church cannot be from Christ nor have any truth in it But Mr. Lockiers Doctrine concerning the mater of the Visible Church excludes the Infants of Christians from being members of the Visible Church go c. For the proof of the proposition I refer Mr. Lockier to Mr. Baxters Dispute against Tombs If he deny that Infants of Christians are members of the Visible Church let him take some pains to answer these many solid and acute Arguments brought by that Learned man to prove that they are The assumption is most clear For Mr. Lockiers Doctrine is that none others no not one other are fit mater of a Visible Church but such as are truly converted so far as men truely converted and very spirituall are able to discern and judge This is a thing that cannot be spoken or understood of â—nfants And it is remarkable that Mr. Lockier nor here when he propoundeth his Doctrine concerning the mater of the Visible Church nor else where in prosecuting it in this Lecture does so much as once with these whom he allowes to be mater of the Visible Church take in their Infants as some others of his mind are wont sometimes to do And therefore that which Mr. Caudrie sayeth considering Mr. Hookers conclusion concerning the mater of the visible Church that had he not added a little after comprehending the Infants of confâ—derat believers under their Parents Covenant he might have been suspected c. Mr. Lockier having altogether left this out I may say it of him positively he is justly to be suspected of concurring with
under Heaven 4. If any maters of generall concernment wherein the benefit or hurt of every member is concerned must be authoritatively transacted not by the Eldership alone but by the members joyntly with them I see not why all maters of generall concernment ought not to be so also Magis minus non variant speciem But to come to the point wherin lyeth the proof of that that it is an offence given and not taken when the members are offended because they cannot by judiciall and authoritative vote hinder the sentence of the Eldership the decisive sentence lying only in the Elders If because in these transactions the benefit or hurt of every member is generally and greatly concerned Therefore it is an offence given if they have not such power of judiciall concurrence and vote in the sentence Then I say women also must have this power and if they offend for want of it as they are as ready as men to offend if they have not power to get their will the offence is given and not taken Because women being members are comprehended under that every member and their benefit or hurt is concerned as well as mens The Author will never be able to avoid this upon his medium 6. If because in these transactions the benefit or hurt of every Member of the Church is generally and greatly concerned when they are offended because they cannot by judiciall and authoritative joint vote hinder the sentence the decisive power thereof lying only in the Elders the offence is not taken but given and therefore they ought to have such vote then say I by as good consequence it followeth because in the great transactions in civill Government suppose by a Major and his counsell by a Parliament the benefite or hurt of every member of the city or Common-wealth is generally and greatly concerned If the Members offend that they cannot by joint authoritative vote hinder the sentence the decisive power thereof lying altogether in these Governours the offence is not taken but given And therefore they ought to concur jointly and authoritatively in these transactions with their Governours Here is again Levelling backed with reason such as it is 7. Therefore to Answer directly 't is but a loose and false principle that in all transactions in which the benefite or hurt of persons is concerned all persons whose the hurt or benefite is therein concerned if they offend that they have not sufficient ability to hinder sentence by their joint authoritative vote the offence is not taken but given and therefore they ought to have such joint authoritative concurrence and vote Nay it tends to the eversion of all Government and bringing in meer Anarchy and confusion Yet 8. I think from this rightly understood may be inferred somewhat which Mr. Lockier would consider in the mater of his next Assertion For if all whose benefite or hurt is greatly concerned in Ecclesiastick transactions ought to have authoritative joint concurrence in these transactions then when as in some main transactions in a particular Congregation for example Excommunication many others benefite or hurt is greatly concerned beside these who are Members of the Congregation it must follow that these others ought to have power of joint authoritative concurrence in these transactions or at least some for their inrerest ought to have such power And this I conceive will amount to the overturning of the supreme Independent tribunall as Mr. Hooker calls it Part. 3. c. 3. of single Congregations and setting up an Ecclesiastick authoritative Judicatory over more Congregations section 14 Arg. 4. SECT 5. Because the spirit of discerning both respecting persons and things is not consined as a peculiar to the Presbytery or Eldership of the Church but the same gift may be in a great measure in some of the Members and a greater gift when all are joined together in the name of Christ and his presence with them to discern and judge of a conjunct strength of saints what mighty things and glorious are spoken in Scriptures That they shall judge the world Angels much more able to judge their own affairs This is the one part of this sections Argument There followeth another of which afterward Now to this 1. If this Argument hold good then again Women at least some Women ought to have judiciall concurrence and vote jointly with the Eldership in transactions of Government Why the spirit of discerning may be in as great measure in some Women as in some Men and the greater will the gift be when they with the Men are gathered together and I think it will not be denyed that Women will be a part of the Saints who are to judge the World and Angels 2. Upon the same ground by proportion it followes because many private men may have the same gift of discerning in a great measure that is in Magistrates in the Members of Parliament Yea may be in a greater measure in some of those then is in many of these and there is a greater gift when all is joined together Therefore all such discerning men must have joint authoritative consent and vote with Magistrates with the Parliament in the Acts of Government Here is again pleading for Levelling 3. Because some men may be have as great a measure of knowledge and understanding for teaching the Word as Ministers it followeth proportionally upon that ground that such men may and ought to Preach authoritatively as well as Ministers and as Socinians some Remonstrants and Separatists teach a gifted man needs not an outward calling to be a Minister His gift is a calling sufficient 4. To answer directly to reason from a gift of discerning in maters coming under Acts of Government to actuall right and power to concur authoritatively in these Acts of Government is a grosse and palpable non sequitur Let a man never have such a measure of a gift for exercising Acts of Government or publick authority he must besides have the warrand of Commission or calling to exert them else if he take upon him to exert them he is but an intruder as all men will grant that are not against both Scripture light and light of nature and for turning all Affaires Civill and Ecclesiastick into a Chaos of confusion 5. Whereas the Author saying their wil be a greater gift when all Officers and private professors are joined together viz. in these Acts of Government in the name of Christ and his presence with them to discern and judge We grant that when all private Professours with the Church Officers are joined together possibly there may be a greater gift of discerning by way of aggregation then when the Officers are alone But whereas withall it is tacitely supposed that all may meet in the name of the Lord i. e. in his Authority and may the more expect his presence for assisting the discerning judging in these maters of Government in the former he begs the thing in question we deny that they do all
lean that way 1. Not only speaks he to his heare â—s in the present â—…seâ— if thy brother offend thee go and tell him tell the Church but also is speaking of a case that might have in that present time fallen out and which falling out it was necessary for them to know and be informed what course they should follow fâ—…edresse of it Hudson vindic of the Essence and Vnity of c c. 1. p. 3. 2. It inclines not a little to understand a Church that was in present being among the Jews because he applyes his present speech to the capacity of the Jews Let him be to thee as an Heathen and Publican who might not have communion with Heathens and would not with Publicans But Christians might eat and drink with both I say not these are demonstrative grounds Yet they may seem to lean that way But see we what the Author brings from the Text that the order of the Gospel Church and it only for so he must be understood is meant section 7 His first Ground is this He Christ speaks in the verse foregoing of little ones which he explaines to be true beleevers and converted ones v. 6. v. 3. this is made the qualification of the visible members of the New Church in the Chapter foregoing Mat. 16. 17. Ans 1. That true saving faith and conversion is the qualification viz. in the externall Ecclesiastick Court of Visible Church members is a dream and that it is taught Matth. 16 17. is another dream and that another kind of qualification as to substance is requisite in visible members of the Church under the N. T. then was under the Old is a third as many of his own side will confesse who usually in that Question bring Arguments from the constitution of the Church under the Old Test 2. What necessity of consequence is here Christ in the foregoing v. 14. of Matth. 18. speaks of little ones true beleevers and true faith is the qualification of members of the New or Gospel Church â—…rgo when v. 17. he bids a Brother if he cannot get an offending â—rother reclaimed by privat admonition tell the Church he is to be understood to speak only of the order to be kept in such offences in the Gospel Church that was to be afterward I confesse if this consequent can be clearly deduced and proven from that anteâ—…denâ— per decimam nonam consequentiam I am deceived certainly the consequence of it is not immediatly evident let the Author assay to make it out section 8 2. Ground Then saith he the very words of censure in case the Church be disobeyed are the same he useth to Peter when he gave the Keyes to him upon his faith Whatsoever ye bind on earth c. Mat. 18. 18. and just this he saith to Peter c. 16. 19. And I will give unto thee the Keyes of the Kingdom of Heaven and Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth c. so that the one explains the other That by Church is not meant the Presbytery or Eldership of one sort or other but the Gospel Church the Congregation of beleevers these conjunctim have the power to censure Answ I confesse I cannot well such is may be my dullnesse conceive what is the order and forme of this Argument in relation to prove that which he undertook a little before viz. that in that tell the Church is not meant the Jewish Eldership whether Civill or Ecclesiastick 1. If he would reason thus the words of censure here used are the same with these Mat. 16. 19. when the power of the Keyes were given to Peter upon his faith and these are words expressing the order of the Gospel Church Therefore by the name of the Church used here cannot be meant the Jewish Eldership I Answer then the Author considers not that the first words of censure are such as are relative to the order of the Jewish Church let him be to thee as a Heathen man and a Publican Or 2. If his purpose be to reason only thus The power of censure spoken of here being the same with that spoken of Mat. 16. these to whom it is ascribed here and given to there are the same the one plaâ—… explains the other But there Mat. 16. it is given 〈◊〉 Peter is a beleever and so in him to the Church of beleevers the Gospel Church Ergo here must be understood not the 〈◊〉 of â—…e and or other Jâ—wish or Christian Answ It s 〈…〉 â—ver yet proven not ever will be that the power of the â—…yer of binding and loosing were Mat. 16. given to Peter as a beleever 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 Church of beleevers section 9 He adds for 〈◊〉 These 〈◊〉 have the power to censure and cast out according to that Corn. 5. 4. When you are gathâ—…ed together c. to deliver such a one to Satan c. and by the same power â—…ved in again that as his punishment was by many so his consolatio◠〈◊〉 reception might be by many also as 't is 2 Cor. 2. â— that Satâ—… might take no advantage which is enough to shew how that admission of members should be by a joint act of the Church as well as excommunication of Members ANSW The Author contemns his Readâ—… very much when as he thinks it enough to cite controverted Paâ—…ges of Scripture and affirm they speak enough for his 〈◊〉 without the least essay to bring any argument or ground to prove and clear that to be their meaning which he affirmeth They are too too credulous that will be moved by such kinde of dictating rather then disputing We deny that the place 1 Cor. 5. 4. doth import that the power to censure and excommunicate doth belong to the whole Congregation of believers as Judges and formall authoritative Actors therein And we deny in like maner that 2 Cor. 2. 6. doth import that the reception of the censured or excoÌ„municated is by the whole Congregation acting therein authoritatively When Mr. Lockier shall be pleased to present us some reasons for what he saith we shall take them into consideration In the mean while he must give us leave not to be moved by his naked Assertions and withall we refer the Reader for further satisfaction concerning these Passages to Cameron praelect in Mat. 18. 15. p. 19 â—0 Edit Salmur in 40. Rutherfurd due right of Presâ— c. 2. pag. 36 37. and c. 10. pag. â—48 349 35â— 351 352. Jus Divin of Church Government par 2. c. 10. pag. 97. and humbly desires Mr. Lockier to consider what they have said on the places section 10 What followeth said by the Author in his 7th SECT the contrary to this understanding c. to the end Is nothing else but a bitter railing which I think the judicious godly men of his way will not own and account unworthy the defiâ—…ng Paper with transcribing it onely briefly to it 1. Whether â—…e Independent way or the Presâ—yterian way of Government be liker and nearer to