to be done you must not be angry with Tertullian for saying you are superstitious Apolog. c. 30. Again when he had told us that Christians pray for the safety of the Emperour entreating for him quaecumque hominis Caesaris vota sunt he adds these things I may not ask from any other then from him from whom I know I shall obtain them because he it is who alone vouchsafeth them and I am his Servant unto whom it appertaineth to obtain what is requested Et ego sum famulus ejus qui eum solum observo Lib. de orat Dom. who observe or worship him alone viz. in my prayers and therefore he gave no heed to Saints and Angels in them Thirdly S. Cyprian informs us that to pray otherwise then Christ hath taught us is not only our ignorance but fault he having said you reject the command of God that you may stablish your own tradition Wherefore unless the Papists can shew us this doctrine taught by Christ we must esteem them ignorant and blame-worthy in the exercise thereof Fourthly When Celsus had said that Angels belong to God and in that respect we should pray unto them to be favourable to us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 8. Orig. Cont. Cels 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Origen answereth him away with Celsus his counsel saying that we must pray to Angels and let us not so much as afford any little audience unto it for we must pray to him alone who is God over all and we must pray to the word of God his only begotten and the first-born of all Creatures and whereas Celsus had further said that we must offer first-fruits unto Angels and prayers as long as we live that we may find them propitious unto us Answer is returned by Origen in the name of the Christians that they held it rather fit to offer first fruits unto him who said let the earth bring forth grass Gen. 1. the herb yielding seed that is to the Creator of the world and to whom we give the first fruits saith he to him also do we send our prayers having a great high Priest that is entered into the heavens Jesus the Son of God pag. 239. Again in his fifth book he lays down this conclusion All prayers and supplications and intercessions and thanksgivings are to be sent up unto God the Lord of all by the high Priest who is above all Angels being the Living word and God for to call upon Angels the like may be said of Saints departed we not comprehending the knowledge of them which is above the reach of man is not aggreeable to reason and if by supposition it were granted that the knowledge of them might be comprehended their very knowledge declaring their nature to us and the charge over which every one of them is set would not permit us to presume to pray unto any other but unto God the Lord over all who is abundantly sufficient for all by our Saviour the Son of God 5. Athanasius saith never any man prayed to receive any thing from God and the Angels or any created being l. 4. Cont. Arian the Papists say frequently Deus custodiat te Virgo Maria. neither did ever any body conceive such a form of prayer God and the Angel give thee such a thing but on the contrary he begs it from the Father and the Son by reason of their unity and uniform reason of giving 6. That of Saint Austins is very worthy to be pondered whom should I find that might reconcile me unto thee should I have gone unto the Angels he might as well have added Saints with what prayer with what Sacraments many endevouring to return unto thee and not being able to do it by themselves as I hear he then had no experience of it from the Churches practice have tryed these things and have fallen into the desire of curious visions and were accounted worthy of illusions 7. In Cap. 1. ad Rom. See an excellent place parallel to this in Arnob. adv Gentes l. 3. p. 101 102. Saint Ambrose or whoever was the Author of the commentaries upon Saint Pauls Epistles extant among his works saith those that are ashamed of their neglecting God are wont to use this miserable excuse that by those Saints or Angels we may go to God as to a King by his Officers go too saith he is there any man so mad or so unmindful of his safety as to give the kings honour to an Officer whereas if any shall be found but to treat of sucha matter they are justly condemned as guilty of high Treason and yet those men think themselves not guilty who give the honour of Gods name to a creature and leaving the Lord adore their fellow servants as though there were any thing more that could be reserved to God for therefore do men go to the King by tribunes or Officers because the King is but a man and knoweth not to whom he may commit the State of the Common wealth but to procure the favour of God from whom nothing is hid we need no spokesman but a devout mind for wheresoever such a one shall speak unto him he will Answer him So then to go to God by others is to neglect God and to adore our fellow creature it is a miserable excuse yea 't is to give the honour of God to a creature and so Idolatry a superfluous thing and consequently superstitious in those who esteem it necessary Farther Sect. 21 the Antients put God into the very definition or description of prayer and therefore cannot be thought to have esteemed it lawfull to pray to any other or to Saints whom they esteemed not to be Gods Orat. in Julit Mart. Orat. 1. de Or. thus Basil prayer is a request of some good thing which is made by pious men to God Greg. Nysen prayer is a conference with God and again it is a request of good things which is offered with supplication unto God Chrysost 2. de Orat. dom In Gen. Hom. 30 de Orat. l. 2. Prayer is a colloquy or discourse with God and again every one that prays discourseth with God and Damascene Prayer is an ascension of the mind to God as a request of things that are fit from God Again Sect. 22 they tell us that prayer is to be made to God alone and therefore not to Saints or Angels In Ps 5. ad Deum solum dirigitur Tom. 10. vide Forb confid mod p. 295. In 1 Cor. Hom. 1. thus to omit Saint Ambrose above cited Saint Basil saith Prayer is not directed to man but to God alone Saint Ephraim to the O Lord and to none besides thee do I make my prayer and further Chrysost on those words with all that call upon the name of the Lord giveth this Exposition not of this or that Creature but of the Name of the Lord. Again on these words do all in the name of the Lord
so Again Mr. C. informs us Sect. 5 that the most learned and sober of our party question not whether the Saints pray for us in general Answer But let me tell him that it is generally questioned by our French Divines Chamier solves all their Arguments with the greatest perspicuity except that single one which is taken from the advancement of their Charity whence you infer that they should be more respectful of our welfare then they were on Earth where they did afford us the benefit of their Prayers but this Argument albeit the most plausible is yet unconsequent for whilest they were here on Earth they haply procured good men to exhort their Relations unto Piety if Ministers spent themselves in preaching and the like but in Heaven they send no Angels that I ever heard of on such errands nor have we any Preachers from the dead Whilest they were here they were sollicitous touching the welfare of their absent friends but do they now think you ask their Guardian Angel how 't is with them Secondly Notwithstanding they have their Charity augmented yet will it not follow that they must pray for their friends below much less for others seeing haply the very knowledge of their friends may be hid from them and were it otherwise it may seem to be grievous to them to consider in what state many of their Relations have been left add to this that they have no certainty that they do not dy the next moment after them Yea lastly how can any man assure me that the Saints in Heaven pray at all Secondly P. 182. S. 6. You tell us these Learned sober men will not deny that they may and do pray personally for their former known acquaintance as Saint Austin believed his Mother did for him Answer This I have already obviated and albeit some who are not willing to think contrary to what some Fathers do allow of may grant it to you yet seeing you can produce neither Scripture for it nor the universal consent of Fathers To. 2. S. 8. And seeing your Arguments are so clearly answered by Chamier we take the liberty to deny or at least to question it Once more Ibid. Yov tell us they will grant that albeit they be in Heaven they may either by Gods Relation or the Revelation of Angels be informed of the Prayers made to them by any others on Earth Answer That this is not impossible at least for God to do we willingly acknowledge but I very much doubt whether any Protestants allow that they actually do so or that it is probable they should be thus acquainted with our desires or if any doe they are never the more Learned for it Secondly 'T is not perhaps impossible there may be men in the Moon and they good Christians and that if a Papist should pray unto them God or his Angels might reveal it And yet I suppose should they upon this account become Petitioners unto them they would be thought little better then Lunaticks yea the same may be said of the Saints in Purgatory which you affirm of the Saints in Heaven and why then do you not pray unto them Will you refuse the assistance of those who are perfected in Charity and other Graces and consequently whose Prayers God hears more willingly then your own will not their prayers be more effectual for sure in Purgatory they will be servent or will they refuse to do us the kindness who do the like for them sure one good turn deserves another and if they will be so surly to us we with the leave of his Holiness will be so to them But to proceed Mr. C. P. 183. will tell us that albeit this rests upon so many uncertainties yet is not that sufficient to hinder them from acknowledging that the practice of invocating Saints by name is very beneficial to them and that on these accounts 1. P. Id. ibid. Because the Angels are continually present with us on the Earth and that it is by them we are defended from the Devils malice who having such a wonderful strength exceeding ours would otherwise destroy us all in our sins nor can it be said that God hinders him seeing he doth not ordinarily interpose his power immediately in Natural Actions Answer This then is the best figment they can Imagine and yet it is most strangely ridiculous to any considering man for was it not the protection of God which kept Satan from Job so that he could do nothing without his Commission and when he had given him Commission could not go beyond it and may he not as easily do the same to others Again secondly the Scripture tells us the Angels are Mistring spirits sent forth for the good of those onely that believe and why doth not the Devil post the wicked down into Hell presently seeing they have no such good Angel to relieve them 3. Will Mr. Crossie say that all the Cattle the sheep and Camels and Oxen yea the Asses of Job had their Guardian Angels if so we will allow our Authour one if not then let him tell us why Satan complain'd he could not come at them Again Have the Tombes of the Martyrs the holy reliques and Images of their Saints every one an Angel to keep them if not why doth not Satan break them or conveigh them away Unless perhaps he approves of your Idolatry and how are ye sure that your Reliques are not changed by him Once more and I have done Have all the Houses in London all the Papists Houses in Rome as many Angels as will guard them keep the Devil from setting fire on them If so the blessed Angels are well employed if not why doth not that Gand Enemy of Mankinde set fire on them every Night Again when on the Lords Day all the Angels of so many Millions of souls come to Saint Peter to tell him such a one in treats his Prayers for such a thing who guards the persons committed to their charge the while or if these Angels be bound to stay here who carries up the prayers to Saint Peter Again seeing so many prayers are put up to the Virgin Mary Surely she must do nothing else but pray there being not one moment when some or other do not pray to her and then what time will she have to hear these nimble TÃ bellarii telling her of New suitors must they interrupt her in her Prayers Again These Saints must not only be told when such a one prayes but whether Hypocritically or no and so I suppose that question must be asked of the Nuncio's Now here is work enough for Saint Mary to receive so many Messengers every day and to enquire whether her suppliants pray in sincerity or not But haply it may be said if any one pray Hypocritically the Guardian Angel will not present that Prayer Answer Very good but seeing the Angel Guardian knows not the heart How will he be able to judge of this Once more when all
the Saints in Heaven are prayed to at once as it is in many Collects and peculiarly on all Saints Dayes surely that day is not an holy day to the Guardian Angel who must be fain to trot to all the Saints in Heaven and acquaint them that Serenus Cressie being very sick and weak desires their prayers But when they pray to all Angels then the poor Angel must not travel over all the Heavens onely but the Earth to boot But we will not deal too severely with him let him proceed and thus he doth it History tells us that Magiclans have alwaies the Devil ready to come at their call why then should not Angels be witnesses of our Actions P. 184. and especially our prayers which as the Scrripture saith they offer as Incense to God Now to I eave the Scripture till anon Here we have more work for the Angel for seeing 't is an Angel Apoc. 8.3 that offers up the prayers and incense of all Saints the Guardian Angel must make a journey to him to unless you will have him to be Christ which will do our Author but little service 2. History likewise will tell us that Magicians and Witches can swim over the Sea in a shell can creep through a key-hole Can dip their finger in a little juice and flie away out of the Chimnie he may believe one as soonas the other Lastly the number of Magitians I hope is few in comparison of other men and so there is some difference as to that for one Devil may better afford to be nigh them especially seeing his service is so much promoted thereby As to that dispute of Saint Austine which concludes the Section I say 1. That he was very uncertain in it and one while denies and again suspects that such a thing might be 2. He saith only possit fieri it may be done this way And again 3. Vt quaedam cognoscant that they may know something and how little service this will do him every one may see P. 184. S. 8. 2. He further tells us We are ignorant how great the sphere of Activitie of the glorified Saints may be in respect of this whole visible world perhaps saith he in the words of Spalatensis the whole sensible world may be no more to one of them then its proper body to an humane soul informing it Answ And are not these men think you put to their shifts who are fain to coin such inventions to salve their Hypothesis But tell me is it probable they inform the whole world so as to be present each of them in every part of the world Or Secondly to operate in each part of the world albeit not present there If the first then will they be little short of omnipresent nor will it be proper to God to fill Heaven and Earth and they being in Hell as well as Heaven and also in Purgatorie How do they escape the fire How â—re the Angels said to ascend to Heaven and descend from it Is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only How are the souls of the Fathers delivered from their limbus said to depart thence and to be with Christ to be absent from the body and present with the Lord was Lazarus's soul carried to Heaven and afterwards extended Again to what end is this extension seeing they may be happie without it and why should we imagine it seeing here 't is certain they are not extended beyond their bodies If the second let them tell me how or by what Operation a soul that is in Heaven can tell that such a one who praies in his mind only is praying to him And suppose two were praying together and the one prayed to Peter and the other to Paul by what operation can these spirits discern that the one prayed to him and not the other I suppose a Praier to Saint Paul makes a different motion in their Orb of Aether but then how doth St Paul know who it is that praies to him Perhaps different men make different motions but Saint Paul never knew them and how shall he be informed Why the Guardian Angel must go up and tell him 't is S. C. that makes such a motion and haply he will remember it But how will he know when he prayes Hypocritically why truly when an Hypocrite praies it makes a different motion from a sincere one in the spirits Orb of Air. This Platonical stuff is all that I can imgine to salve the Hypotheses Si quid novisti rectius istis candidus imperti Lastly be it that their presence or operations were so vast yet could they not judge of the heart seeing to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is proper to God and consequently must be as zealous for an Hypocrite as a devout Christian Thirdly Sect. 9 we cannot tell saies he what things God may reveal to them Answ Nor he whether he reveals any thing to them at all and therefore in these things he doth most evidently 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. What a ridiculous thing is this to suppose such a Circle that when a man hath made a praier that praier should come to God and be revealed by him to a Saint and that Saint bring it to God again 3. Why must he be thought to reveal this to the Spirits in Heaven and not to the Souls in Purgatorie or if equally why are not they also praied to 4. But it is evident from Scripture that God doth not make any revelations of this kind for 't is said Eccles 9.5 The Dead know nothing that is done in this world neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the Sun And again Abraham is ignorant of us Esay 93.16 5. Bellar. himself confutes this Evasion by 2 Arguments 1. If it were so the Church would not say so boldly to all Saints Orate pro nobis but sometimes would prayto God to reveal our desires to them 2. No good reason can be given why Saints under the Old Testament should not be invoked for God might have revealed their Petitions to them though in Limbo Patrum and sure their praiers might have been as beneficial as the praiers of such as were alive 6. Why upon the same presumption should we not pray to the Saints living for albeit their praiers be not quite so effectual as the praiers of Saints departed yet they are effectual and consequently to neglect this will be to neglect one means conducing to our welfare I say upon the same presumption for this reason why God must be supposed to reveal our Praiers can be no other then our good and would not the reason move him to reveal them to Saints on Earth as well as those in Heaven Mr. Cr. p. 185. Oh but saith our adversarie If God said to Abraham a Pilgrim on Earth shall I hide from Abraham the thing that I do how much more may we imagine tha he hideth not the mightie works of his mercie
and justice here from his Domestick Servants 'T is pitie that this Argument was not framed before the Church of Israel madeher complaint that Abraham was ignorant of her It would have taught her better divinity 2. 'T is no Demonstration sure God would not hide from Abraham the thing he was to do which concern'd so much his Brother Lot albeit he never revealed afterwards to any of his dearest servants that we read of unless his Prophets any such thing therefore he will reveal to any Saint in Heaven the praiers that are made to them by any person whatsoever By what hath been said I may be bold to infer that the invocation of Saints is very foolish and if so that the Church of Rome is not infallible But our Authour claps in two places of Scripture without any coherence at all Sect. 10 to prove I know not what and albeit they have been answered an 150. times he shall not bate me a single unite Yet doth he bolt them forth without any notice of the answers given We read saith he not only an Angel but every one of the four and twentie Elders to have in their hands golden Censers and Vials full of Odours Rev. 8.3.5.8 which are the prayers of the Saints that is of their Brethren upon Earth Now to take these two places in their Order 1. Revel 8.3 We read another Angel came and stood before the Altar having a golden Censer and many Odours were given to him that he should offer them with the prayers of all Saints upon the Golden Altar which was before the Throne and verse 4. The smoke of the Odours which came of the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God out of the Angels hand Now 1. Let it be granted that to one Angel was this given to offer Odours to come up with the praiers of all Saints How doth it follow that they are to be invocated or that he knows when any particular person praies to him or any other Saint May not he offer up his incense continually as knowing onely this that praiers are made continually 2. If one Angel do this How will it follow that all do it or that all Saints 3. If this be a created Angel is there not a fine round of Praiers 1. They are carried by an Angel or revealed by God to the Saints then he pteseuts them to the Angel the Angel to Christ and Christ to the Father 2. This Angel is said to offer Odours to come up with the praiers of all Saints which surely is to do somwhat which may make them more acceptable to God and will they say that the Virgin Mary is no Saint or that any Created Angel offers somwhat to God which makes her praier more acceptable Well but we denie it to have been a created Angel but say it was the Angel of the Covenant who by the incense of his merits and intercessions offers the praiers of all Saints to God and makes them more acceptable unto him For 't is manifest that here is reference to that which was used to be done in the Levitical administration where the Priest entering the Temple offered Incense on the Golden Altar whilest the people in the Court put up their praiers to God Luk. 1.10 Whence we may understand that phrase that the Angel offered his Odours with the prayers of the Saints Now the Levitical Priest who offered incense was a type of Christ not of the Angels and this is that which the Apostle intimates that Christ the Angel of the Covenant Typified by the Levitical Priest offers up the praiers and sighes of his members groaning under the Tyrannie of wicked men and by the incense of his merits makes them acceptable unto God The second Scripture is Apocal. 5.8 where we are told That twenty foure Elders fell down before the Lamb having every one of them Harps and Golden Vials full of Odours in their hands which are the prayers of the Saints Answ 1. Many interpret these of the Elders of the Church as Beda in verse 10. Here it is more plainly declared that the Beasts and the Elders are the Church redeemed by the blood of Christ and gathered from the Nations also he sheweth in what Heaven they are saying they shall reign upon the Earth And so Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 33. Ambrose on the Apccalyps and Haimo 2. Vossius will tell you that here is nothing intended but Eucharistical praiers not petitory and the four and twenty Elders onely intimate that the whole Family of Christians in Earth and Heaven did render continuall Doxologies to God for the redemption of the World by his Son There is one Argument of greater moment insisted on and that is taken from the miraculous effects not onely of prayers directed to God at the monuments of the Saints but also directed to the Saints themselves Now to this I answer First By denyal that any approved testimonies can be produced of such miraculous effects wrought by any prayers immediately directed unto Saints the Instances which Mr. C. refers us to shall be answered anon Secondly I say that these pretended miracles may justly be suspected for Satanical delusions and that upon several accounts First From the silence of all undoubted Antiquity of any such Sepulchre wonders in the three first ages albeit the Christians long before had used to keep their assemblies at the Coemiteries and Monuments of their Martyrs When God had ceased to exert his power as in former times that he should thus freshly exert it upon these occasions seems incredible and that which cannot easily be admitted by considering men who are acquainted with the Artifices of the Devil Secondly from the nature of them which rendreth them very ridiculous Basilius Selutensis l. 2. c. 10. Thus of Saint Thecla we are told that they who watch the night before her festivity do at at that time yearly see her driving a fiery Chariot in the aire and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus a place which she did principally affect in regard of the commodity and pleasantness of the scituation that when she had demanded of Alypius the Grammarian C. 24. forsaken by the Physitians what he ailed and he had replied upon her in that of Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all things the Martyr being delighted partly with the man and partly with the verse for you must know that after her death she was much affected with Poetry and Oratory C. 21. 24. and continually delighted with such as would be accurate in her praises conveyed a certain round stone into his mouth with the touch whereof he was presently healed Yea the same Basil tells us how having prepared an Oration for her anniversary festivity the day before it should be pronounced he was taken with such an extream pain in his ear C. 27. that the Auditory was like to be quite disappointed But that the Martyr the same night
appeared to him and shaking him by the ear took all the pain away He addeth further C. 16. that when he begun to be weary of writing this same Book she sits her down close by him smiles whilest she reads it shews her self wonderfully pleased with it and that it behoved him to finish it The like miracles we have related by Severus of one Martinus a Monk De vita B. Mart. S. 24. Ibid. S. 17. who could see the Devil though he remained in his own substance fright him with the sign of the Cross continually who putting his hand into the mouth of a Demoniack forced the Devil out at his posteriors Yea which is most wonderful of all that could by the smell of the body Hieron in Hilarione or the clothes know what Daemon tyrannized in such a body These were the miracles that helped forward the worshipping of Saints and the monkish superstitions Thirdly Because the old Daemons worship prevailed upon the world by the same means Thus Tertullian Apol. c. 51. Search therefore the Deity of Christ whether it be true or not if it be that by the knowledge whereof a man shall be reformed to good it follows then that the false be renounced especially that whole mysterie of Daemon-worship being discovered which under the names and images of the dead through Signes Miracles and Oracles obtaineth a Divinity And Chrysostome they the Gentile Daemons oftentimes by their skill cured diseases Orat. in Judaizantes and restored to health those that were sick what should we partake therefore with them in their iniquity God forbid De Praep. Evan. l. 5. c. 2. And the like we have from Eusebius who informes us that the wicked Daemons counterfeited by working many miracles the Souls of them that were deceased and thence they were thought worthy to be celebrated with greater service But Thirdly we Answer Mr. Stillingfleet p. 351. That after the true Doctrine is confirmed by divine miracles God may give the Devil power to work if not real miracles yet such as men cannot judge by the things themselves whether they be so or no and this for tryal whether we will forsake the true doctrine confirmed by greater miracles for the sake of such doctrines as are contrary there to and are confirmed by false Prophets by signes and wonders Now in this case our rule of tryal must not so much be the miracles considered in themselves whether real or no as the comparing them with the miracles wrought in confirmation of that doctrine which is contrary to this which these words tend to the proving of Therefore Gods people under the Law were to examine the drift and scope of the miracles and if they were intended to bring them to Idolatry what ever they were they are forbid to hearken to them as you may see most evidently Deut. 13.1 2 3. So now under the Gospel the worship of the true God through Jesus Christ and by the doctrine revealed by him is the standard whereby we ought to judge of all pretenders unto miracles so that let the miracles be what they will if they contradict that doctrine which Christ revealed to the world we are to look upon them as onely tryals of our faith in Christ to see whether we love him with our whole hearts or no and accordingly we look upon these miracles as tryals whether we will forsake the Head Christ Jesus give this worship of the Creator to the creature and the like and are sufficiently warded against the force of this assault 2 Thes 2.9 by being told that Antichrist must be ushered in with signes and lying wonders Fourthly We add that these miracles might have been done by God himself and that at these Martyrs Tombs but onely to confirm the faith they suffer'd for Now as for the testimony of Antiquity in this point Sect. 12 First Many of the places produced by him speak nothing of the Invocation of the Saints departed nor do they infer any thing but what we generally confess thus that of Saint Hillary tells us Ps 129. That our infirmity needs the intercession of Angels Answer Be it so we add that our infirmity needs the intercession of good men on earth yet we are not able to see this consequence that they must or may be invocated or prayed unto Again doth the Council of Chalcedon say let Flavian pray for us Act. 11. we say so too let all the Saints and Angels in Heaven all the men on earth pray for us we are willing to have the benefit of their intercessions or prayers for us Albeit to speak the truth this sentence looks quite anothery way the business was this there was a long contention betwixt Bassianuus and Stephanus for the Bishopprick of Ephesus Bassianus albeit not rightly ordained kept it for the space of four years and with him communicated Flavianus this was urged in the Synod by the favourers of Bassianus as an acknowledgment made by Flavian that Bassianus was lawful Bishop This Argument they thus enforce if you will not hearken to our reasons let Flavianus the Martyr entreat this of you he though dead judgeth the cause to Bassianus then after Cecropius had spoken in his behalf the Bishops and Clergy of Constantinople stand up and cry this is the truth viz. Flavianus was a favourer of Bassianus c. Flavian lives after death that is his judgement and his memory as afterward Flavian is here that is we have here his judgement for Bassianus let the Martyr entreat for us that is in this cause of Bassianus let him entreat the Council for us Haec vera genuina verborum mens est cui nisi pertinax aut imperitus refragari nemo potest saith our Crackanthorp Nor do we scruple to say with Austine Def. Eec Ang. c. 59. let Cyprian yea let Mr. C. help us as with his prayers onely let him remember that this is not vox invocantis sed optantis an indication of our willingnesse Sect. 13 not our petitions that it should be so Orat. in 40. Mart. Mr. C. p. 190. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let it here be noted that Mr. C. could scarce be ignorant of his forgery it being charged upon them by the Bishop of Ely and Forbs in those very Books which are cited by him in this Chapter Saint Basil is suborned to say whosoever is in any pressure let him fly to the assistance of these Martyrs and again whosoever is in a state of joy let him pray to them the former that he may be delivered from misery the later that he may be preserved in prosperity Answer Here we have a double corrupting of the Text an Artifice which our Author notwithstanding his solemn protestation to the contrary doth every where use Saint Basil saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he doth fly to them Mr. C. let him fly Saint Basil he doth run to them that is to their monuments Mr. C. let him pray
an Argument from the Anathemaes annexed to the decrees of Councils which have been sufficiently refuted already and therefore I pass to the second part of my Proposition to shew that these Doctrines c. were not received by us in the time of Pope Gregory or esteemed matters of Faith For 1. Sect. 11 Wee have already evinced the contrary of the Popes supremacy and proved that in two Brittish Councils it was Synodically rejected and it is confirmed by Bishop Bramhal in his tract of Schism and his Reply to the Bishop of Calcedon and by Ephraim Pagit in his Christianography beyond all possibility of contradiction 2. The denial of the infallibility of the Church of Rome appears sufficiently from that stiff opposition which was made by the Brittish Picts and Irish against the Church of Rome touching the Celibration of Easter of which the Reverend Primate enlargeth in his religion of the ancient Irish Bishop Usher from p. 92. to p. 116. and their aversness from communion with those of the Roman party which he relateth p. 108 109 110. where among other things you have these verses made by one of the chief of their wise men Woe bee to him that doth not keep From Romish Wolves his sheep with staff and weapon strong 3. As for Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead let it bee observed that the Prayers and oblations mentioned are expresly noted to have been made for such whose souls were supposed at the same instant to rest in bliss See Bishop Usher p. 27 28. And again in his answer to the Jesuit p. 189. Bed l. 3. Hist Eccl. c. 2. hee gives these instances The Brothren of the Church of Hexham in the anniversary commemoration of the Oâ—its of Oswald King of Northumberland used to keep their vigils for the health of his soul and having spent the night in praising God with Psalms to offer for him in the morning Id. l. 4. cap. 23. the sacrifice of the sacred oblation as Beda writeth who tells us yet withall that he râ—igned with God in Heaven and by his prayers hee procured many miracles to bee wrought on Earth So likewise doth the same Bede report Bed l. 4. Hist cap. 23. that when it was discovered by two several visions that Hilda the Abbess of Streansheal or Whitby in York-shire was carried up by the Angels into Heaven they which heard thereof presently caused prayers to be said for her soul And Osbenn relateth the like of Dunstan that being at Bath and beholding in such another vision the soul of one that had been his Scholler at Glassenbury to be carried up into the Palace of Heaven hee straightway commended the same into the hands of the Divine piety Divinae pietatis and intreated the Lords of the place where he was to do so likewise 4. As touching the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the same was taught then which we teach now as you may see in the Homily of Elfrick approved by divers Bishops in their Synods and appointed to be read in the Church upon Easter-day before the receiving of the Communion This Book is subscribed by the two Arch-Bishops of Canterbury and York Hom. in Dâ—e Sancti paschat p. 17. and thirteen other Bishops and the words of it are There is great difference betwixt the body wherein Christ suffered and the body which is hallowed Howsel The body truely that Christ suffered in was born of the fleâ—sh of Mary with blood with bones with skin and with sinews in humane limbs with a reasonable soul-living And his Ghostly body which we call the Howsel is gathered of many corns without blood and bone without limb without soul And therefore there is nothing to be understood bodily but all is Ghostly to bee understood 5. From hence it follows undeniably that they rejected your proper sacrifice of the Mass 6. And for communion in one kinde it was decreed in a Synod under Cuthbert in the year 747. Can. 23. That Layicks should be admonished to communicate more often lest they should want the food and drink of salvation Pagit Christianography part 3. Our Lord saying except you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of Man you shall have no life in you From whence it is evident that they thought it necessary for Layicks to participate of both the Elements 7. That the Layicks were permitted yea commanded to read the Scriptures appears from what Bede reports of Bishop Aidan That all such as went in his company Lib. 3. c. 5. whither Clerks or Layicks were tyed to exercise themselves either in reading of the Scriptures or learning of Psalms That they had their service in their own tongue I have but little evidence neither have you more to the contrary Bishop Jewels reply pag. 190. But the best I yet find given of it is this that Theodore the seventh Arch-Bishop after Austin brought the Latin service into England That they rejected Image Worship is evident from this that our learned men opposed the second Nicene Council's determination concerning Images and when the acts of that Council were sent into Brittain by Charls King of France Alcuine wrote an Epistle against it substantially grounded upon the authority of the holy Scripture which Epistle with the said Book with our Kings and Princes hands was brought to the King of France See Pagit part 3. p. 41. ex Hoveden aliis That they rejected invocation of Saints Holinshed's Hist ad An. 1100. p. 27. is proved from the History of King William the second who protested openly that he believed that no Saint could profit any man in the Lords sight and therefore neither would hee nor any man See other evidences in Pagit pt 3. p. 83. that was wise as he affirmeth make intercession either to Peter or any other Saint for help Till the year 1100. it was not prohibited to the Clergy to marry saith Henry of Huntington At which time Anselm endeavoured to put the Popes Letters in execution but at last after the pressures tyranny and arts of an hundred and thirty years continuance for it began in 970 and was not finished till 1100. as Polydore Virgil computes it the Clergy were driven from their chast Wives and betook themselves to Concubines whom they changed or multiplyed without disturbance And this tyranny was exercised by Pope Calixtus the second Whereupon our Simon of Durham made these Verses not very good though very true O bone Calixte nuno omnis Clerus odit te Nam olim presbyteri solent Uxoribus uti Id praevertisti quondam cum papafuisti Which Prideaux in his History hath bettered by his translation The Clergy now the good Calixtus hate For heretofore each one might have his mate But since thou gotten hast the papal Throne They must keep Punks or learn to lig alone By which you may see that it was not Calixtus the First who lived Anno Dom. 221 that enjoyned Celibacy as our Authour
to what these testimonies seem to speak nor doth he there say as our Author cites him Baptisme alone may suffice to the salvation of Infants indeed one of the places tels us that there is full remission of sins in Baptisme and consequently if the person Baptized should instantly depart this life si continuo consequatur ab hac vita migratio he will not be obnoxious to any thing agreeable to which is the place cited from venerable Bede but hence we can only infer that St. Austin thought in such a case of absolute necessity they might be dispensed with through the mercy of God but yet 't is evident he held they had a right to the Sacrament and that ordinarily it was necessary to their obtaining life eternal Which also most evidently appears from the Book cited by our Author cap. 24. he cites cap. 22. From an Antient and as I suppose Apostolical Tradition the Churches of Christ have this deeply setled in them that without Baptisme and the participation of the Lords Supper no man can attain to the Kingdom of God nor yet to life eternal which after he had endeavoured to prove from 1 Peter 3. and John 6. he proceeds thus If therefore so many testimonies Divine convince us that everlasting life is not to be expected without Baptisme and the body and blood of Christ 't is in vain to promise it to children without them Now if this opinion which St. Austine saith was so deeply setled in the See Austin ep 95. De usu Patrum p. 263 264. Church of God and which was held by Innocent the first by St. Cyprian and others as Dally may inform you be not a flat contradiction to the Trent Councils Anathema upon those who hold Parvulis necessariam esse Eucharistiae communionem let any reasonable man judge CHAP. X. The Question stated by Mr. C. Sect. 1. Prayer for the dead infers not Purgatory Sect. 3. The Doctrine of the Church of Rome not faithfully related Sect. 4. Prayer for the dead not of Apostolical Antiquitie Sect. 5. The Testimony of St. Denis considered Sect. 6. Of Tertullian Sect. 7. Of St. Cyprian Sect. 8. St. Chrysostome Sect. 9. Eusebius Sect. 10. Epiphanius Sect. 11. An evasion confuted Sect. 12. St. Ambrose Sect. 13. St. Austin not for Purgatory Sect. 14. Mr. C s. Dilemma considered Sect. 15. Arguments against Purgatory Sect. 16 17. Mr. C s. Argument Answered S. 18 19. IN this Chapter our Author tells us Sect. 1 That the Church obligeth all Catholicks no further Sect. 4. 5. 111 112. then simply to believe there is a State or place of Souls in which they are capable of receiving help or ease by Prayers whereupon he gives us a Prayer of the Mass which mercifully desires to all that rest in Christ a place of refreshment light and peace through Christ our Lord and also another which beseecheth the Lord to absolve the soul of his servant from all the Chains of his sin Now saith he if it can be demonstrated That by the Universal practice of the Church such Prayers as these were made for the dead it unavoydably follows that the souls for whom they are made are neither in Heaven nor Hell and if so where are they Dr. Pierce speak like an honest man Sect. 1 Answer This is a shrewd Argument which forceth the Doctor either to lose his Honesty or his Cause But sure the Case is not so desperate For were this the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which yet is an evident untruth and were these Prayers used from the beginning and that through the Universal Church of God which cannot be proved yet would I defie his Conclusion and his Argument to infer it For 1. Sect. 2 If Prayer for a place of refreshment exclude the person prayed for at present out of Heaven then is there not one Saint one Martyr nay not the Virgin Mary her self now in Heaven seeing the Prayer begs this to all that rest in Christ Sess 9. De invocatione Sanctorum and then farewel the Council of Trent which talks of Saints reigning with Christ aeterna felicitate in Coelo fruentium Nay the Liturgy of Saint James prayes for the Spirits of all flesh which they had prayed for and which they had not from righteous Abel to that very day that they might rest in the Region of the living in the Kingdome of God in the delights of Paradise in the bosome of Abraham Isaac and Jacob And yet will our Authour say That there is not one of these souls in Heaven And so for the absolving of their sins which is his second instance The Liturgy of Saint Crhysostom Prayes for all the Fathers and Brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that had gone before them for all that had laboured and administred in the Holy Function before them for the forgiveness of the sins of the builders of their Mansions worthy to be had in perpetual remembrance and prayes God to pardon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all the Orthodox Fathers and Brethren which slept in the Communion of God in the hope of the Resurrection and Eternal Life Dall de Satisfact page 510. And likewise Saint Augustin prayes for his Mother that the Lord would pardon her sins Confes l. 9 c. 13 I know O Lord saith he That she was merciful and from her heart forgave her Debtors Do thou therefore forgive her debts if she hath contracted any after her Baptisme for so many years Forgive her Lord forgive her I beseech thee do not thou enter into judgment with her And so on and yet the same Austin tells us what ever it be that is signified by Abrahams bosome there his Mother is ibi vivit nam quis alius tali animae locus for what other place was fitting for her Of such prayers our Author may find good store in Dall ubi supra pag. 520. Now then is Abrahams bosome Purgatory Are all the Orthodox Fathers in Purgatory or if not is it not evident that the Church hath made such prayers for those that are not in Purgatory Sect. 4 2. We shall tell him in the sequel of the Chapter That these prayers of the Fathers depended partly upon suppositions exploded by the Romanist himself partly upon other things which cannot suppose a Purgatory in the mild'st sence Sect. 5 But is it true that the Romanist's Purgatory is onely a place wherein souls are capable of receiving help or ease by prayers why then may it not be Heaven for the souls there may be help't to a fuller state of Glory by our prayers as the Fathers generally affirm 2. The Trent Council tells us that the Catholick Church out of Scripture and the ancient Tradition of the Fathers and the holy Councils hath taught us that there is a Purgatory and thereupon commands the Bishops to be diligent that the sound Doctrine of Purgatory taught by the Fathers and Councils should be believed held and every where preached Now
let us hear him telling us what the Priests demand from God for the person departed Eccles Hist c. 7. a pardon of all fins committed by him through humane frailty and that he may be conducted into Abrahams bosome into a place from which grief sadness and mourning was banished But that this place of Dionysius makes nothing for Purgatory appears first in that the party is described by him to have departed out of this life replenished with Divine joy as now not fearing any change to worse being come to the end of all his labour and to have been both privately acknowledged by his friends and publickly pronounced by the Ministers of the Church to be a happy man See Dr. Fern against Spencer C. de Purgatorio and to be verily admitted into the society of the Saints that have been from the beginning of the world Secondly in that the Bishop or Priest so praying is said by him to be the Interpreter or publisher of the Divine Judgements viz. in giving rewards according as men deserve And how that the Divine loving kindness in great goodness over-looks their infirmities or spots and stains of sin contracted by humane weakness Thus that prayer which begs the full forgiveness of his sins is doctrine to the living shewing and assuring them of Gods mercy to them that strive to live well notwithstanding through humane weakness they offend often and cannot be free from all spots and stains of sin Then in relation as it seems to the other part of the prayer which begg'd that he might be placed in light c. This Author adds The Bishop or Priest knows such good things are promised and therefore prayes that they may come to pass and be given to them that have lived well Also he knows that the good things promised will come to pass and therefore as the Interpreter of Gods Will he shews that they will surely be made good to them that so live and die and if these be the intents of this prayer surely they will not conclude a Purgatory Well then when he prayes for the pardon of his fin he refers to that second sentence of the day of Judgement that God would then proclaim him pardoned and then would receive him into heaven Ibid. c. 7. both as to body and soul And hence our Dionysius tels us that in these Solemnities the Church was wont to read the undoubted promises which were recorded touching the resurrection and then devoutly sang Psalms of the same Argument As you may see in Bishop Vsher page 205. Secondly as for that of Tertullian Sect. 7 where he bids the faithful wife pray for the soul of her husband begging for him refreshment and a part in the first resurrection Ter. de Mon c. 19. Dally will tell you First that he was infected with the errour of the Millenaries and thence it was that he required her to pray for a part in the first resurrection supposing some to be raised sooner and some later within that 1000. years Or secondly that this refreshment is begg'd at the day of Judgement or the Resurrection See Dall p. 513. 517. Digna co loco solatia refrigeria and that the Antients supposing those that were departed to be touch'd with a longing desire of being in Heaven they begg'd a refrigerium to them that is the enjoyment of such comforts as they were thought to have had while they lay in the bosome of Abraham expecting the Resurrection As touching the place of Saint Cyprian Sect. 8 Epist 66. the Answer lies hid in a word which he hath cheatingly conceal'd in his Translation for whereas * Ib. p. 116. p. 516. he hath Translated it that no Oblation shall be made for him viz. That names in his Will for an Executor an Ecclesiastical person The Latine hath it pre Dormitione ejus and as Dally answers his Bellarm. refers to the Eucharistical thanksgivings which they offered ob Dormitionem ejus that the faithful soul was delivered from the evils of the world which he confirms from the testimony of the Author of the Commentary on Job commonly ascribed to Origen And from Saint Ambrose who tells us Diem quo obierint sancti sc De Cor. Mil. c. 3. See Dally p. 516. colebri solennitate renovamus which is as far from Purgatory as Earth from Heaven And this is that which Tertullian saith Tradition was the Author and Custome the confirmer of The first Testimony which he borrows from Chrysostome tell us only this That according to the Apostles Institution Sect. 9 during the celebration of the Mysteries In Ep. ad Philip c. 1. Hom. 3. Commemoration was made of the dead Secondly That this was done that some comfort and refreshment might accrue to them thereby Now that the first comes not up to a shew of any proof for Purgatory is evident to any eye but blur'd with prejudice as appears from those many other ends for which the Fathers esteemed it useful as to bring and keep their souls in Abrahams bosome See Dally de Satisfac l 5. c. 12. to procure them a portion in the millenary reignhere on earth an augmentation of their Glory to procure the Resurrection of their bodles an abatement or exemption from the flames of the last day and the rigour of the last judgment And as for the second Hom. Cor. in c. 15. v. 46. S. Chrysost might well say that 't was not in vain to pray for sinners when he held that thereby the torments of the greatest sinners were or might be alleviated as appeares from his 21. Hom. on the Acts of the Apostles where speaking of a man who had not lived one day to himself but to Voluptuousness Intemperance Covetousness to sin and the Devil if he chance to die saith he shall we not mourn for him shall we not endeavour to pull him out of these dangers For there be waies if we will whereby his punishment may be made light for him If then we do continually make prayers for him if we bestow Almes though he be unworthy God will respect us And whereas he adds that it was the practice of the Church we grant it but the Church then practised it for the ends now specified not because she believed the Roman Purgatory For that Saint Chrysostome thought that the parties deceast if they had lived well were in a state of Joy and not of Grief appears by the funeral Ordinances of the Church related by him which were appointed to admonish the living of it Hom. 4. in Ep. ad Hebr. For tell me saith he What do the bright Lamps mean Do we not accompany them therewith as Champions what mean the Hymns Consider what thou dost sing at that time Return my Soul unto thy rest for the Lord hath dealt bountifully with thee And again I will fear no evil because thou art with me And again Thou art my refuge from the affliction that compasseth me
infer'd that after the solemnity ended He drank no more of the fruit of the Vine which advantageth him nothing And yet 3. If neither of these two answers could stand yet seeing we have made it probable if not necessary that these words should be understood of the Eucharisticall Cup His argument falls to the ground irrevocably Sect. 17 For a close I will mind him of what Jansenius has long ago told him that this Argument is frivolous and unconcluding Hence it appears In locum saith he How infirm that Argument is which some of our men suppose efficacious to prove Transubstantiation from this that Christ said non bibam de genimine vitis inferring that what he drank of was not so c. For saith he should we grant which yet is less probable that this was said by S. Luke before the Consecration yet by Saint Matth. and Mark it seems clearly to be spoken after so that our arguing from uncertainties which with greater probabilities may be rejected then alledged will never be sufficient to establish any Dogma or opinion but rather give occasion to Heretick's to be more pertinacious in their Errours when they see such weak arguments brought against them Thus I have vindicated the Doctours Arguments Sect. 18 I will but adde one more Mich. le Faucheur de la eene de Signeur though I can tell him where to meet with an hundred and that is this That which the Apostle six or seven times in one or two Chapters calls Bread is bread but the Eucharist after consecration is so call'd by the Apostle 2 Cor. 10.16 17. chap. 11. vers 26.27 28. The minor is evident to any that hath eyes and will believe them The major I prove thus 1 If that which is once call'd the body of Christ be sufficiently argued to be so albeit it hath all the accidents of another thing and seems to all our senses to be so then that which is called Bread seven times and seems to all our senses so to be is sufficiently proved to be so but the first is true For the Council of Trent thence proves the Body of Christ to be Corporally in the Sacrament If it doth it efficaciously then it must be so If not then 't is not an infallible interpreter of Scripture nor is their argument thence concluding Now that this was said but once by Christ albeit repeated by three Evangelists and one apostle is clear This sequel is also evident For there is greater reason for the one then the other viz. That what is seven times called bread by the Spirit of God should be so when all our senses testifie it then that which was but once call'd the body of Christ should be so in Contradiction to all the senses of the Universe To cite all the Fathers that here speak for us would be an endless work Sect. 19 he that would see some hundreds of evident citations to this purpose let him consult Bishop Vshers Answer to the Jesuits challenge Bishop Morton Bishop Taylor and Doctor Featly on this very Subject Books very obvious but especially the two voluminous confuters of Cardinal Perron Mich. Le Faueheur and Bernardus Albertinus to whom I refer the Reader for abundant satisfaction and shall content my self with one only passage of Theodoret who in his second Dial. brings in a man contending that Christs humane nature was swallowed up of the Divine which he illustrates thus As the Elements or Symbols of the Lords body before the invocation of the Priest are one thing but after Invocation are changed and made another so the Lords body after his Ascension is changed into a Divine substance to which he answereth You are caught in your own net for the Symbols do not go out of their proper nature but remain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the former substance wherein they were And thus I have finish'd the first part of the Chapter concerning Transubstantiation Sect. 20 I come now to return an answer to what he hath pleaded for the Adoration of the Sacrament And first the place which he cites out of St. Chrysostome will not conclude his purpose For albeit he saith 1 Cor. 10. Ho. 24. let us imitate the barbarous Magi yet does he not say as our Authors parenthesis would have him that we should imitate them in worshipping our Lord but onely tells us that they address'd themselves unto him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with a great deal of fear or horrour Let us therefore stir up our selves saith he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and shew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 far greater fear then they For this Exposition of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the comparison requires And that this word ordinarily bears the sence if any would farther be inform'd let him have recourse to Beza or any other Commentator upon the 5. Heb. 7 and he may receive satisfaction from them Secondly Did Chrysostome indeed speak of Adoration yet might he bid us imitate these Magi not by adoring the Elements but him that is represented by them Hom. 8 q. in Matth. Thus when elsewhere he sayes that it is Christ who begs and receives in the poor mans sheaf and bids us reverence him I suppose he would not have the reverence done to the poor man but directed to our Lord and Saviour The other three Citations tell us onely this Sect. 21 that they did adore Christs flesh in the Sacrament Mr. Cr. p. 131. and what is that to the purpose for it is very well known that the Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the Latine Adoro are used by the Fathers for any kind of reverence as when it is said by Tertullian Adoro Scripturae plenitudinem and by the Council of Carthage apud Cyprianum Adorabilia Scripturae verba 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Isid Pelusiot Lib. 1. Ep. 136. But to come to particulars Sect. 22 that place of Saint Ambrose doth not necessarily refer to the Sacrament De Sp. l. 3. c. 1. Answ But were it to be understood of the Eucharist he saith no more then this That in these mysteries we worship Christ and consequently the flesh of Christ as being not divided from him but he doth not say that in adoring the mysteries we adore Christ And as for Saint Augustine Sect. 23 he propounds the very same Objection I fear saith he to worship the Earth lest he that made Heaven and Earth should damn me for it thus fluctuating I turn to Christ and here I find how the Earth may be worshipped because flesh is of the Earth now he took flesh upon him and gave us his flesh to eat which no man eats nisi prius adoraverit but he that hath first adored viz. Christ As it follows cum adoras illum that is when you worship him to wit Christ Let not the thoughts be of the flesh No you must not worship that alone but as conjoyned with the Deity Do we eat that flesh that
to your precept And in the Feast of Saint Peter and Paul to Saint Peter they pray much after the same manner and yet the Scripture puts the question Who can forgive sins but God Mar. 2.7 Secondly They pray to them for Grace and Glory * Ps 56. Lady in thy name let me be safe and free me from my unrighteousness have mercy upon me and cleanse me from all mine iniquities and again * Ps 27. 50. Dissolve the Bonds of mine iniquities Take away the bundles of our sins purge my soul from its filth * Ps 3. 87. By thy Holiness are my sins purged * Ps 44. Thou art the beginning and end of my whole salvation totius salutis meae c. * Ps 41. * Ps 136. By her are sins purged by her is made true satisfaction for sins c. whereas 't is Gods propriety to be the God of all Grace Thirdly they pray for these things upon the account of the merits of the Saints Thus the Roman Breviary By the merits of Saint Franciscus April 2. Let us enjoy our promised rewards and grant that by the merits of Saint Peter and Saint Paul we may attain to eternal Glory July 6. That by the merits of Saint Nicholaus the Church may enjoy perpetual peace by the intercession of the merits of Saint Basil Sept. 10. Let us be absolved from allour sins and to the blessed Virgin Mary Jan. 14. By thee let the wrath of God be averted from me appease him by thy merits and again By the blood which Saint Thomas shed for thee Ps 72. make us to ascend that Heaven whither Thomas is ascended and this is consonant to that of Bellarmine Prec ad usum Sacrum in fest Th. Becket who tells us that it is lawful to pray unto the Saints even for salvatian and other spiritual blessings if so be we understand it thus that they should impetrate them by their merits Now if this be not derogatory to the Merits of Christ to have veram satisfactionem de'peccatis to have Grace and Glory purchased by the blood and merits of others let any unreasonable Man judge Section 4th and 5th Sect. 3 Our Authour affords us some considerations from which I suppose he would infer the lawfulness of this practise and first saith he we may beg prayers from one another as Saint Paul himself did from the Ephesians and others c. 6.19 c. 2. Thes 3.1.4 Col. 3. where he bids the Brethren pray for him Answer Very good but yet we dare not beg from these our Brethren Grace Glory pardon of sins nor say with the Roman Breviary to the Virgin Mary We flye unto thee O Virgin Mary for thy defence and for as much as being conscious of our great offences we fear the wrath of a severe Judge whom we dare not see We flye unto thee his Mother that thou wouldst intercede for us unto God excuse our sins and obtaining for its the Grace of thy Omnipotent Son procure us the pardon of what ever we have committed Secondly He tells us such begging of prayers is far from Idolatry or diminution to Christ since holy persons living or dead are not invocated as donors but fellow beggars with God for us Answer Why then doth your Breviary talk so often of procuring Grace and Glory and the pardon of sins by the merits of the Saints Why do you tell us that by the Holiness of the Virgin Mary are your sins purged That she is the beginning and end of your salvation that she hath made true satisfaction for us are these things no diminution to Christs merits and satisfaction to procure mercy for us upon these scores is this to procure it as fellow bâ—eggars Thirdly say you the refusing of the assistance of those whose prayers God more willingly hears is a neglect of using all means helpful to us Answer True but if the neglect of this Invocation of Saints be the neglect of any means thus helpful then were the Apostles negligent in giving us no intimation of our duty in this particular Yea the Saints of God for some thousand of yeares under the Old Testament and the Primitive Church for 300 years must be accused of this negligence for of their practise in this case nullibi vola nec vestigium Scripture and Histories afford us no one Tittle but pregnant Evidence to the contrary But you proceed Mr. C. S. 5. If the praiers to Sts. departed be prejudicial to the merits intercessions of our Lord Sect. 4 so is the beging of the prayers of those alive if one be unlawful so is the other and if both be lawful the prayers of Saints departed will be incomparably more effectual and therefore will better deserve to be made use of then the other Answer Is it not then a wonder that Saint Paul if he may be permitted to have known as much as Mr. C. should thrice call upon his Brethren alive for their supplications and yet not put up one Petition to a Saint or Angel Secondly We know it is the duty of living Saints to pray for one another but whether the Saints departed pray at all whether for any in particular and how far we know not We know a certain way to excite the Saints on earth to the performance of that Duty in reference to us but we are ignorant of any way of conveighing our desires to the Saints in Heaven We have Rule President and Command in Scripture for the first not one jot of all these in reference to the second the Requests we make to the living are no elicite Acts of Religion the requests made by the Romanist to the Saints departed are We pray to the living neither directly nor indirectly but desire them only by vertue of our Communion with them to assist us in their prayers as we might ask an Alms or any other good turn at their hands the Saints departed are by you directly invocated and in your devotions you immediately step from God and Christ unto a Saint We do not plead the merits of our Brethren nor bid them do so in our behalf you do both in reference to the Saints departed we do not kneel to our Brethren or ly prostrate before them on these accounts we do not invoke them in our Churches insert them into our Liturgies believe them to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any way or that we are committed to their care or custody all this you do believe in inreference to the Saints departed Is not this therefore a very good Argument if the prayers made to Saints departed by the Romanists wherein they beg of them Grace and Glory and all spiritual good things trust in their Patronage plead for audience on the account of their merits be prejudicial to the merits of satisfaction and intercession of our Saviour or otherwise unlawful then must the asking of my brothers prayers in spight of all these differences be
in vain that the Arrians pretend Synods for their faith when they have the divine Scripture more powerful then them all from whence the Argument is apparent that which is more powerful then all Synods for the stablishing of faith is a sufficient means of unity because the power of General Synods is supposed to be so but such is the holy Scripture according to Athanasius Ergo. Nor is there any contradiction to this in what is cited from Athanasius by Mr. C. viz. that he wonders how any one dares move a question touching matters defined by the Nicene Council since the decrees of such Councils cannot be changed without errour For what consequence is this the decrees of such Councils as the Nicene whose decrees were Orthodox and regulated by the Scripture cannot be changed without errour Ergo general Councils are infallible especially when Athanasius immediately gives this reason viz. because the faith there delivered according to the Scriptures seemed sufficient to him to overturn all impiety so then this is the reason of their immutability because their decrees were delivered according to the Scriptures 2. Sect. 13 Optatus Milev speaks thus we must seek Judges viz. in the controversies betwixt you Donatists Cont. Parmen l. 5. and us Catholicks on earth there can no judgement of this matter bee found viz. none which is infallible as appears from the words precedent no body may beleive you nor any body us for we are all contentious men and again by fiding the truth is hindred we must seek a Judge from heaven but wherefore should we knock at Heaven when we have it here in the Gospel in which place he evidently concludes that no convention of men are to bee beleived for their own Authority nemo vobis Donatistis nemo nobis Catholicis credat 2. That there could be no infallible Judge of that controversie upon earth both which are sufficiently repugnant to this pretended infallibility 3. Sect. 14 Vincentius Lirinensis in his discourse upon this Question Adv. Her c. 1. how a Christian may bee able surely to discern the Catholick truth from Heretical falsity adviseth us to this end to fortifie our Faith 1. By the authority of Gods Law 2. By the Tradition of the Catholick Church Hujusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus fere retuli this way saith he I was directed to by almost all the Learned men I enquired of So that this opinion here delivered was not his private one but it was the common way by which the Fathers of his age discerned truth from errour and here let it be considered 1. That by the Tradition of the Catholick Church hee doth not understand the definition of any General Council but partly the universal consent of the members of the then present Church partly the constant and perpetual profession and doctrine of the Antient Church Cap. 3. as his own words do evince unto us for he tells us that is properly Catholick Quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus creditum est which is believed every where at all times and by all men this saith he we must be careful to hold as we shall he if we follow universality antiquity and consent What ever exceptions are made by the Papists to this evidence De formali objecto fidei p. 210 c. are taken off by the Learned Baron 2. Let it here bee noted that Vincentius doth not so much as once in all his Book direct us to the determinations much less to the infallible determination of the Pope Roman Church or a General Council as the way to discern truth from Heresie and yet his silence in these particulars could not easily be imagined in a treatise written purposely on that subject and wherein he undertaketh to give us full and certain directions to avoid Heresie if the Church had then been of the Romanists opinion St. Austin's testimony is as clear for thus he speaks Ep. 19. ad Hieron I have learned to give only to those writings which are now called Canonical this reverence and honour as that I dare say that none of them erred in writing but others I so read that how holy and learned so ever they be I do not therefore think it true because they so judge it but because they perswade me either by those Canonical books or by probable reason that they say true If therefore this honour of being free from errour in their writing is only to bee ascribed to the Canonical Books of Scripture then must the decretal Epistles of Popes the decrees of General Councils be excluded from it according to St. Austin as being writers which are not Canonical For the particle solas excepts all that are not so yea hee doth not only compare all other writers with Scripture in this contest but their writings also as in this same Epistle Only to the holy Scriptures Ep. 112. do I owe this ingenuous servitude so to follow them alone as not to doubt that the writers of them erred in any thing And again If any thing be affirmed by the clear Authority of the holy Scriptures it is undoubtedly to bee beleived but as for other witnesses or testimonies whereby we are perswaded to beleive any thing Tibi credere vel non credere liceat wee are free to beleive them or not But undeniable is that of his third Book against Maximinus neither ought I as fore-judging to bring forth the Nicene Council nor thou the Council of Ariminum I am not bound by the Authority of this nor thou of that let matter contend with matter cause with cause reason with reason by the authorities of the Scriptures which are witnesses not proper to either of us but common to both Here wee are told that St. Austin speaks not his own minde but the minde of the Hereticks he hath to deal with an answer haply borrowed from Zabarel or some other Commentator upon Aristotle who when they are not able to avoid his sentences any other way tell us that he speaks ex mente aliorum Philosophorum but the truth is otherwise as appeareth from the 18. and 19. chap. of his Book de unitate Ecclesiae where the like passage may be found and the Question being there stated which is the true Church hee desires the Donatists to demonstrate their Church not in the speeches and rumours of the Africans not in the Councils of their Bishops c. but in the Canonical-Authorities of the sacred Books and c. 19. gives this reason of his demand because saith he neither do we say that they ought to beleive us to bee in the Church of Christ because that Church which we hold is commended by Optatus Ambrose or innumerable other Bishops of our Communion or because it is predicated by the Councils of our Colledges c. and then speaking of the holy Scriptures he saith These are the documents of our cause these are it's foundations these are it's upholders as