your Churches praier to Her b Tunos ab hoste protege That She would defend ut from our ghostly Enemy Because as Eve was overcome by him so Mary should be victorious and bruise his head and so the recompence should be made unto mankind by the same Sex which had transgress'd Phil. I still must mind you of leaving these excursions and shew wherein the Church of Rome offends in this point of the Invocation of Saints Theoph. I shew you how she offends in owning the vulgar translation and giving occasion unto those usual blasphemies concerning the Virgin Mary However I will proceed and shew how in her general Councils as she esteem them in her Popes in her Liturgies she hath given great Offence and scandal unto the Israel of God In that great Lateran Council begun an o 1512 Julius the second being Pope and ended 5 years after under Pope Leo the tenth consisting of 114 Bishops we shall read in c Bin. Tom. 9. in Conc. Lateran Binius his Edition of the Councils the 9 th tome how in the opening of the several sessions of that Council for the greater solemnity Homilies were made by men of great fame and Learning among them Caietanus begins the 2 d session with his Oration or Sermon and premiseth this address to the Virgin Mary d Quoniam nihil est quod homo sine divino quxilio possit pollicori ad gloriasam ipsant Viâ—ginem Dei Matrem primo convertam Orationem meam Aâ—t Maria. Because man can promisse to himself nothing without divine assistance therefore in the first place I will address my praier unto the glorious Virgin Mother of God Hail Mary c. So Balthasar Del Rio in the opening of the seventh session begins his Sermon a Vt non inprata audire atque audita exequi possitis Deiparae Virg. Maria praesidium imploremus Ave Maria c. That ye may hear acceptable things spoken and perform them let us implore the protection of the Virgin Mary Mother of God Hail Mary full of grace c. Phil. These are instances of no direful consequence In the Solemn performance of those holy exercises they implore the assistance of the Blessed Virgin you may suppose the assistance of her praiers Theoph. We in our Homilies and Sermons apply our selves to the blessing of Gods assistance and you in the first place seek to the divine assistance of the Blessed Virgin for so Caietanus appears to call it however you see it is the mode and form even in the presence of so great Council That the Invocation of the Blessed Virgin should justle out all supplication to God in their Sermons for otherwise they would not alwaies have kept to this way For so in the ninth session Antonius Puccius a Bishop and Clerk of the Apostolical Chamber having propos'd great things to speak of b Antequà m haec aggredior per Angelicam salutat beatiss Virg. opem suppliciter implorabo Ave Maria c. Before I enter saith he upon these things I will humbly implore help from the most Blessed Virgin in the Angelical Salutation Hail Mary c. But the last instance I will give in the tenth session is observable the Homily was made by a Venerable Archbishop named Stephen 70 years old and having design'd to insist upon considerable points out of the 48 Psalme he praies in these words c Ipsa Virgo beata Angelorum Domina fens omnium gratiarum quae omnes haereses interemit cujus eperá magna Reform Principum concord veâ—t centra Infid expeditie feri debet May the Blessed Virgin Lady of Angels the fountain of all graces afford her help who hath slain all heresies and by whose assistance the great reformation in hand the unity of Princes the expedition against Infidels must be carried on And because this was not enough the good old man improves his youthful Muse to compose an Ode unto the Virgin to implore her assistance as well in Meeter as in Prose He goes on in this mode of supplication Thou art the splendor ornament Everlasting light of all Virgins the Mother of the most high the glory of Mankind Blessed Mary Thou alone ô Virgin dost rule the Stars Thou art the light of Heaven and Earth and the Sea we beseech Thee to favor our attemts That I may unlock the sacred senses whichâ—ly hid in these severe writings And Scale the high places of the Earth Thou being our Captain Omnium splendor decus perenne Virginum lumen genetrix superni Gloria humani generis Maria Unica nostri Sola tu Virgo dominaris astris Sola tu terrae Maris atque Coeli Lumen inceptis faveas rogamus Inclyta nostris Vt queam sacros reserare sensus Qui latent chartis nimiùm severis Ingredi celsae duce Te benignâ Moenia Terrae You see the Authentick practise of your Church before so solemn an Assembly These Applications made to the Blessed Virgin in solemn forms of Praier and in such Terms are inconsistent with the rules of Piety and Religion Phil. You may let this pass upon the score of a Poetical Licence Theoph. In our Praiers we should be devout and modest not licentious and bold but alas if you look back upon his supplication in Prose you will find it more extravagant his Luxuriant Fancy was not there confin'd to measures But from these instances you may take the measures of their Licenc'd and most authentic impiety such Hymnes made the best Melody and were most acceptable unto your Fathers of the Church and all her Children in the Antichristian times Phil. Your indiscreet Zeal transports you beyond the rule of Charity which might instruct you to put a fair gloss upon some harsh Expressions Theoph. I dare not call evil good neither have I learn'd the Art of your Doctors to undertake the defence of great Impieties and Blasphemies and make them plausible by a distinction The next general Council as you reckon was that of Trent where we have the Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints establisht and all those declared Impious who think otherwise And altho the Council pen'd the decree in most cautious terms being awakened with the exceptions of reformed Churches a Concil Trid. sess 25. yet we may plainly there discover That it is not their Praiers only which we must sue for but also the help and succor of the Saints in Heaven It is good and profitable humbly to call upon them and to fly to their Praiers and aid and help If the council had intended only the Assistance of their Praiers they would not have multiplied terms without cause in their decree But in these words they have left open a Gap for the Saints votaries to justify their Praiers to the Saints for their aid and protection to expect effectual favours from them not only by their Praiers but also by their Active powers These things will easily fall under this clause of
hold That the Souls of the Faithful departed before Christs Resurrection did not enter into Heaven neither see the Face of God nor know the State of things here above them and therefore it was not usual in the Church to call upon them and say Holy Abraham pray for us Your Doctors hold a Bell. ib. c. 19. Notandum ante adventum Christi qui moriebantur non intrabant in Coelum non Deum videbant nec ordinarie poterant cognese preces sapplicantium That the Spirits of the Patriarchs and Prophets and People of God were shut up in Limbo Patrum as they call it in a subterraneous place the uppermost verge of Hell beneath us without pain and without joy in the Vision of God waiting for their redemtion out of that Prison by the coming of Christ who descended into Hell to set them at liberty and to conduct them triumphantly into Heaven When we urge that Text Isa 63. ver 16. Doubtless thou art our Father tho Abraham be ignorant of us and Israel acknowledgeth us not to shew how the Saints departed know not the Affairs and Transactions here below You answer So it was before Christs Ascension the Saints departed were not in Heaven until Christ opened the Kingdom to them but they were shut up from the Vision of God and from all knowledge of the concerns of this World and yet contrary to this their own Hypothesis you see how they give Instances of Moses and Samuel and Onias and Jeremiah praying for their People the Jews and sollicitous for them in their distress Phil. You may therefore observe the limitation of Bellarmine Non poterant ordinarie preces cognoscere c. In that state they understood not ordinarily the Affairs upon Earth nor heard the Prayers of the People but God might reveal them and so excite them to pray for the People upon which account some of our Doctors hold a Azorius Instit. Moral lib. 9. c. 9. Medina de Orat. Quaest 4. That Prayers might be made to the Fathers in Lymbo yea even to the Souls in Purgatory because they are in a state of Grace and Charity and by the gift of God or by the Ministery of Angels they may hear our Praiers Theoph. Upon the same ground we may daily implore the Assistance and Prayers of our Friends that are absent living at a great distance from us for God may reveal our Desires and Petitions to them but alas these are weak props and suppositions to uphold a feeble cause and hitherto your Learned Cardinal hath not bin demonstrative in the point Phil. Before we conclude I do not doubt but you shall change your note In the New Testament we read Rev. 5. 8. How the 24 Elders fall down before the Lamb having golden Viols full of Odors which are the Praiers of the Saints Theoph. What Argument can Bellarmin or you frame out of this Text I understand not his design Phil. Bellarmin shews how Interpreters understand by the Praiers of the Saints Intercessions made by the Saints in Heaven for the confirmation and support of their weak Brethren upon Earth Theoph. It seems then even the Saints in Glory make use of Mediators of the four Beasts and the twenty four Elders to present their Prayers to the Lamb. The more general Interpretation of that place is That these Odors filling the golden Vials are the Praiers of the Faithful upon Earth which are represented in the Psalm To ascend like the Incense Psal 141. ver 2. Phil. This gives as full testimony to our purpose as the other for thereby it appears the Praiers of the Saints on Earth are presented unto God and to the Lamb by the Saints and Angels in Heaven And to this effect we read Rev. 8. ver 3 4. how an Angel came and stood at the Altar having a golden Censer and there was given unto him much Incense that he should offer it with the Praiers of all Saints upon the golden Altar which was before the Throne And the smoke of the Incense which came with the Praiers of the Saints ascended up before God out of the Angels hand Now this Incense offered up with the Praiers of the Saints on Earth we may suppose are the Merits and Intercession of the Saints in Glory Theoph. And we may suppose they are the Merits and Intercession of Christ whom Primasius understands by the Angel in this place we know it is said expresly Heb. 9. 24. That Christ is entred into the Holiest of all into Heaven it self to appear in the presence of God for us and that by him we offer up to God continually our Sacrifices of Praise Heb. 13. 15. and without all peradventure he is most properly said to add Incense and sweet Odours to our Praiers and Praises because for his sake only they are acceptable to the Father However I cannot but observe what a leap your Cardinal hath taken over all the New Testament to produce his first and cheifest Arguments out of the Revelations of S t John for the Saints hearing and presenting our Prayers unto God purposely to involve himself and others in mysteries and visions which can admit no clear Interpretation neither become useful to lay the Foundation of a Doctrine which takes up the greatest part of the peoples devotions in the Church viz. of the Invocation of Saints In a like case S t Augustine cried out to the Donatists a A Ferte aliquid quod non egeat Interpret Bring forth such proofs as want no Interpretation Suppose I should undertake to prove That the Souls of the just departed are not in Heaven neither do enjoy a perfect state in bliss Rev. 6. vers 9. c. because when the fift seal was opened S t John saw under the Altar the Souls of the Martyrs of them that were slain for the word of God and for the Testimony which they held and they cried with a loud voice saying How long O Lord Holy and true dost thou not judg and avenge our blood upon them that dwell on the earth and white robes were given unto every one of them that they should rest yet for a little season until their fellow servants and their Brethren that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled Suppose I should from the same Text urge that the Martyrs do expressly pray for Divine vengeance upon their enemies but no mention is made of any intercession for their Freinds you would not well approve Arguments drawn from such mysterious visions and Revelations and therefore do not your self make use of them b Tom. 30. in Epistolis ad Paulinum ad Marcellam S t Jerom tells us That the book of the Revelations hath as many mysteries as words and that the whole is to be understood in a spiritual sense and not literal Phil. These things were certainly written for our Instruction and Bellarmine very well argues That if the Saints in Heaven and Martyrs do pray for jugdment upon their
custom two Popes Leo and Gelasius were wroth and determin'd positively against them Phil. I will not interrupt the Series of my Discourse by reflecting upon by-past Passages but proceed to shew how the Communion in one kind was in use in the Primitive Times and not condemn'd and so by consequence allow'd Many Customs of the Primitive Times infer the Body of our Lord was delivered to the People without the Cup. In the days of Persecution when they could not assemble often to communicate in public Assemblies it was usual to carry with them part of the consecrated Bread wrapping it up in clean Linnen and keeping it in their Houses until such time as they thought sit to eat it Of this Custom a Lib. 2. ad uxorem c. 5. Non s 〈…〉 maritus quid secreto ante omnem cibum gastes si sciverit non illum credet qui dicitur Tertullian gives a notable proof writing to his Wife That if she inclin'd to Marry after his death she should be careful to Marry a Christian not an Heathen otherwise he will not know what thou eatest in secret before all refection and if he know it to be Bread he will not believe it to be that which we call it viz. The Body of Christ b Lib. de Oratiene c. ult Aecepto c 〈…〉 Domini re 〈…〉 And in another place The Body of the Lord being receiv'd and reserv'd So a Quaedam arcam in qua Domini sanctum fuit indign manibus aperire tentavit igne inde assurg deterrita est Cyprian in his Book De Lapsis relates How a Woman endeavoring with wicked hands to open a Chest wherein the Holy Body of our Lord was lock'd up she was terrified with Fire issuing out of the Chest b Qui festinas ad spect Eucharistiam inter obscoena corp meretr tulit And in his Book De Spectaculis he speaks of one with indignation Who made such haste to the Heathenish Plaies and Sights that he carried about him the Holy Eucharist amidst the throng of whorish and obscene Persons c Lib. de Obitu frat Satyri c. 7. Ne vacuus mysterii c. Ambrose shewing the Piety of his Brother Satyrus tells us That being at Sea in a Storm ready to suffer ship-wrack he earnestly begg'd the Sacrament of one that was with him and wrap'd it up in a linnen Cloth and hang'd it about his neck and being cast away he was the first who escap'd alive to the shore Theoph. What would you prove from these Passages Phil. That they carried and kept by them the Body of the Lord and when occasion serv'd did eat it fasting at home and in all these Passages no mention is made of the Cup or of the Blood of Christ Theoph. But I can give several express instances of both kinds which the Faithful carried from Church with them to their Houses You have heard above how d Apol. 2. Prope finem Justin Martyr told you The Deacons give the Sacrament of Bread and Wine mingled with Water to those who are present and carry it unto such as were absent e Oratione 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. So Gregory Nazianzen shews of his Sister Gorgonia If any where saith he her hand had tresured up any of the Antitypes of the Holy Body and Blood f In Epistolâ ad Rusticum de Exuperio Nihil illo ditius c. And Jerome most distinctly speaking of one Exuperius saith No man can be richer then he who carries the Body of our Lord in a wicker Basket and the Blood in a Viol Glass Phil. But in most Instances mention is made only of Christs Body reserv'd and g Ligari fecit in Orario Satyrus in S t Ambrose caused it to be wrapt up in a Linnen Cloth and bound it about his Neck Orarium was a Linnen Cloth on purpose wherein to wrap up the Sacrament as Vice Comes shews h Lib. 2. de app missae c. 19. Orarium pannus quo caelestis Euch. involvebatur I hope you will not say he did wrap up Christs Blood in a Cloth Theoph. Yes he might wrap up the Holy Mysteries the Bread and the Wine put in a Vial-glass together And Ambrose his Expressions look towards the Wine of the Sacrament when he saith i Ib. Caeleste mysterium haustum arcano pectoris fusum in viscera He received the Heavenly Mystery swallowed up as in a draught in the secret Repository of his Heart and diffus'd into his Bowels Phil. Flesh when digested may be said properly to be diffus'd into the Bowels Theoph. But you know your Doctors allow not Christs Flesh to be digested and turned into Chyle and Nutriment Phil. These are Niceties I pray let me proceed without disturbance You know the Sacrament was usually sent unto the Sick to be received upon their Beds Tanquam viaticum morientium as Food for a long Journey given unto those who were passing from Earth to Heaven And this was only in one kind viz. The Lords Body Theoph. I reckon the sick Principly among such who being absent had the Sacrament sent to them and have shew'd out of Justin Martyr they had the Mysteries in both kinds What the Faithful receiv'd in the Church the same the Deacon carried to the Faithful in their Houses when by reason of Sickness or any other justifiable occasion they could not be present at the publick Solemnity However your Instances are only of the Communion in private Houses and the Mysteries reserv'd and if one kind only be express'd the other may be understood But have you any Testimony of the Church which expresly shews the Sacrament was given in the Church in one kind only whereas we have brought a cloud of Witnesses for the public Communicating in both kinds Phil. Yes many ancient Canons make express mention of the Laick Communion as distinct from that of the Clergy So that Priests and Deacons Criminals were censur'd to Communicate only as the People not as the Priests that is in one kind not in both So the Eliberitan Council Anno 305. in the 76. Canon speaking of any Deacon who shall receive Holy Orders being conscious of a great Sin he had before committed a Bin. Tom. 1. pag. 237. Si quis Diaconus c. Post quinquennium actâ poenit accipiat Laicam Communionem If he discovers not himself after five Years penance Let him be admitted to the Communion of Laicks So the Council of Sardica Can. 2 do concerning Bishops highly criminal Decrees They shall not be admitted unto the Communion of Laicks even on their Death-beds And so in many other Councils mention is made of the Communion of Lay-people Theoph. Yes we do acknowledg it But how do you prove that which you and Bellarmin design thereby That 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was to receive in one kind We know the Canons by that expression imply That Men in Holy Orders
Persecutors much more for mercy and favor unto their friends and brethren for they are more inflam'd with charity then with an eager thirst after revenge Theoph. I perceive most of the Arguments are probable diductions from Analogie and proportion but we expect divine Autority to establish such a principle part of Worship which you make the Invocation of Saints Phil. We are not yet arriv'd at that point but preparing the way unto it shewing the Saints in Heaven do understand our affairs and pray for us and with your patience I will give other Texts to prove it Theoph. More pertinent I beseech you Phil. That passage of S t Peter is full to the point 2 d of Pet. 1. 15. I will endeavor after my decease that ye may be able to have these things alwaies in remembrance Where the Apostle shews that after his departure he will endeavor for them Theoph. This feat Argument is Bellarmines and not S t Peters he hath chang'd the order of the words and so by consequence their meaning The Original Text manifests how the words should be read not as you transport them I will endeavor after my decease that you may be able to keep in remembrance c. But Thus a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. I will endeavor that every one of you may be able after my decease to have those things alwaies in remembrance And this endeavor he did use in the daies of his flesh in preaching the Gospel until his death and leaving these Epistles as remembrancers Bellarmine indeed hath the confidence to add to the Text his Paraphrase that it might serve his turn b Dabo operam habere vos commendatos sive in Animo post obitum I will endeavor to have you recommended or in mind after my death And yet it is observeable how he concludes this Text after all his patching c Quam vis non sit evidens est tamen probabile argumentum to be no evident but a probable Argument Whereas as he hath shapt it it is cleer and demonstrative to his purpose but his conscience checkt him for his additions and transmutations and so he would not lay any great stress upon it Phil. You will never leave your sinister Construction of his fair dealing but I hope his next Argument has evidence enough That if Dives in Hell was solicitous for his Brethren upon earth and pray'd Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them least they should come into the same place of Condemnation much more are the Saints in Heaven sollicitous for their Brethren the Church Militant and pray for their protection and assistance Theoph. Your Arguments a majori will not hold without some Autority to support them This of the rich glutton is but a feeble Crutch d Justin Eucherius Cyril Chrysost many Intepreters take the whole passage to be a parable not an History and e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Theophylact upon the place reckons the other that it is an History a foolish conceit Now you know the maxim f Parabolae non sunt argumentativae parables are no Argumentative Topick neither are they Narratives of things done but similitudinary representations to fix some Doctrines more sensibly and effectually in mens minds Again if it were an Historical relation of matter of fact it would not prove the point That Dives beindead and in Torment knew the affairs of this world Only he was sensible that he had given an example of voluptuousness and uncharitableness unto his brethren and that their sins would contribute unto his Torment and therefore he was solicitous to have them reclaim'd When he shall urge his example for the Invocation of Saints I will answer That you bring an ill president to confirm a Doctrine of the Church and withal when Abraham or any of the Saints in Heaven shall undoubtedly appear and commune with you you may desire their assistance Phil. Bellarmine hath one material proof that the Saints in Heaven do pray for the faithful upon earth because the Church militant and triumphant do make one mystical body whereof Christ is the head And so there g Ibid. Communio illa exigit necessario ut membra pro invicem sint sollicita mutuo se juvent must be a Communion between the members making them solicitous mutually to help one another Theoph. He might have spar'd to urge the necessary mutual assistance for we do not pray for the Saints in Heaven neither are we solicitous for them who are immutably blessed and of their affection towards us their fellow members militant upon earth we do not doubt neither of their praiers for the Church in general That she may be victorious over all her Enemies as also for the filling up the number of the Elect and their Consummation in bliss but this will not infer their distinct knowledg of things here below or make for your Doctrine of Invocation For you know the Saints militant over all the world are fellow members and mutually solicitous for one another and yet one National Church doth not invocate another in her public offices Phil. I pray give me leave to make the Inference when I have sufficiently fortified the premises you run away with the argument before it is perfect and so conclude it is invalid For you shall find that our Doctors do not only prove how the Saints in Heaven pray in general for the Church militant and for the Saints on earth but that they pray particularly for them for that is Betlarmines next position a Ibid. Sancti qui regnant in coele crant pro nobis etiam in particulari The Saints in Heaven pray for us in particular Theoph. Be pleas'd to let us here his Arguments Phil. He proves the Angels have a special charge over us in particular and pray for us and therefore much more the Saints in Heaven do so Theoph. How doth he prove his much more I doubt it will prove at length much less and the whole Argument a non sequitur Phil. His reasons seem demonstrative our Saviour saith the Saints in Heavin are as the Angels Luk. 20. vers 36. They alwaies stand in the presence of God and most affectionately love us and therefore want neither understanding or will to be assistant unto their brethren upon earth And in one regard they may surpass the Angels in a promtitude to succor us in that they have a nearer relation to us as their flesh and blood and have had experience of our dangers and sorrows and so are the rather qualified to compassionate our infirmities Theoph. Our blessed Savior shews how the Saints in Glory are like unto the Angels and equal to them in respect of their Immortality for they can dy no more and in that they neither marry nor are given in Marriage as you may observe the place but there is no demonstration the comparison should hold in all things and doubtless before the Resurrection
and the joyful union between the Spirits of just Men and their glorified bodies they are in some state of imperfection their appetite of Union being not fulfill'd and therefore you may observe our Savior spake of the Saints in the Resurrection expressly as to their likeness and Equality with the Angels and concludes not any thing before They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world and the Resurrection from the Dead neither Marry nor are given in Marriage Neitheir can they dy any more for they are equall unto the Angels Luk. 20. vers 35. 36. That they want neither knowledg nor affection to assist us and take a charge of us altho we should grant to avoid disputes yet we do not read they have such a Commission from God to attend us as have the Angels It is written Ps 34. 7. The Angel of the Lord tarries round about them that fear him and delivereth them Again Ps 39. 11 He has given his Angels charge over thee It is written Matt. 18. 10. In Heaven their Angels do alwaies behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven Again Heb. 1. 14. Are they not all Ministring Spirits sent forth to Minister for them who shall be heirs of Salvation Produce such Autorities for the glorious Saints ministery and assistance and we will yield your consequence that because the Angels of Heaven have charge over the people of God upon earth the Saints have likewise It is written 1 Thes 4. 16. That at the voice of the Archangel and the sound of the trump the dead shall rise That the Son of Man shall send his Angels at the last day to gather the elect and sever the wicked from the just the chaff from the corne Matt. 13. Dare you ascribe this office likewise unto the Saints in glory And therefore your Argument from the Angels to the Saints is groundless a meer invention of man without any warrant from Gods word Wherein it appears that the Angels are Gods messengers and Ministers between Heaven and earth but not so the Saints departed Now as God Almighty imploies the Angels so he imparts unto them the knowledg and understanding of affaires below so far as concerns their business and as they attend the Saints upon earth so they know much of their condition And so they rejoice at the conversion of a sinner But we read not a syllable of the Saints in Heaven of their knowledg or their Joy and therefore you can draw no good consequence from one to the other Phil. You conclude well upon your own suppositions but take our Doctors along with you and you will find That God hath committed the charge of the Church militant and the Saints upon earth as well to the Saints as to the Angels of Heaven c Bell. Ibid. A spiritibus beatorum regi gubernard fideles c. and that the faithful are govern'd and conducted by the Spirits of the Blessed Theoph. Shew their substantial proofs and not their confident assertions Phil. You read how the Son of God makes a faithful promise Revel 2. vers 26. 27. He that overcometh and keepeth my words unto the end to him will I give power over the Nations and he shall rule them with a rod of Iron as the vessel of a potter shall they be broken in peices Again Rev. 3. 12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of God to uphold his Church and I will grant to him to sit with me on my throne to rule and govern with Christ his Church and to preside over the world now Bellarmine proceeds to shew how these promises are made to the Saints after this life because they are made to him that overcometh all the Temptations of life and keepeth Christs word until death And that this government belongs to them before the general Resurrection appears from that expression He shall cule them with a rod of Iron and shall brake them as a potters vessel These words imply a pastoral regiment the original is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he shall feed them as a Shepherd his sheep and it is call'd an Iron rod because inflexible from the rule of justice and therewith the refractory shall be broken in pieces the same expressions are given of Christ Rev. 12. 5. She brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of Iron Theoph. Methinks your Doctors in there deep Theologie fetch their proofs most from the Revelations of S t John Your Doctrine of the Saints in Heaven governing the World and the faithful upon earth knowing our state and hearing our praiers is a great mysterie I had almost said of Iniquity and you cheifly confirm it from some mysterious passages in the Revelation an Argument you want plain and positive proofs and therefore fly unto obscure and figurative and mystical expressions All these promises you have mention'd made to the Saints persevering unto the end serve to shew their state of transcendent blessedness and glory above their fellows who in this life were inferior to them in their sufferings and in their graces Like those in the parable who according to the improvement of their Talents had autority given them over many Cities Luk. 19. Or like the blessed servant whom the Lord at his coming shall find so doing Verily I say unto you That he shall make him ruler over all his goods Mat. 24. 47. He shall place him in great honor saith Euthimius upon the place and he gives a caution that we should not enquire too far and with too much curiosity into these things nor collect any thing from such parabolical expressions but what they necessarily imply After the like manner Theophylact upon the place He a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. shall share in the more Honourable recompences to wit in the Kingdom of Heaven for the Saints are Heirs of all that appertain to God And so run the general Interpretations upon the ten Cities c. Among the Ancients we find no mention of this conceit That Christ communicates the charge of his Church and people and the government of the world before the day of judgment unto the Saints in glory Phil. However his proofs out of scripture may sail him Bellarmine abundantly shews from the Testimony of the Fathers that the Saints in Heaven do govern and take charge of the Saints on earth and are therefore in this regard likewise equal with the Angels Theoph. I will take the Testimony of the Antient in due season but I first desire to hear all the Arguments together out of the Holy Scripture proving That the Saints do particularly pray for us and that we must pray to Them for I suppose the foundation of this Doctrine must be sure laid in the word of God or else all will fall to the ground Phil. The Doctrines of our Church are very consonant unto the Scripture and out of them you will find sufficient proof of our duty to call
upon the Saints in Heaven Theoph. Make that good and I shall undoubtedly become your convert Phil. Remember this when we draw towards a conclusion mean while I will not spare to give the premises and proofs Bellarmine undertakes to prove expressly b Quod Sancti sive Angeli sive homines piè ac utiliter à viventibus invocantur That the Saints in Heaven whether Angels or men are piously and profitably call'd upon by us who are Living Theoph. Can you tell the reason why he puts his proposition in such unusual terms the common distinction is of the Angels and Saints in Heaven but he calls them Angels and men and both by the name of Saints Phil. You cannot deny but that Angels are Holy Persons and by consequence that they are Saints Theoph. It is not material what they are by consequence but you know the Angels are not commonly call'd Saints when you propose to speak of the Saints in Heaven none will understand you of the Angels and then for the other member of the distinction c Sive Angeli sive homines Men the Souls of just Men departed are not men The man is dead his immortal Spirit lives and upon this Account when you call upon Peter and Paul to pray for you alas Peter is dead and Paul is dead their blessed Spirits are with God but not their Persons before the general Resurrection Phil. These are but frivolous exceptions do not betray your fears by diverting me from the Cardinals proofs First he alledgeth that plain Text for the Invocation of Angels Gen. 48. 16. The Angel which redeemed me from all evil bless the Lads You see the Holy Patriarch Jacob invocates the Angels blessing upon Josephs two Sons Ephraim and Manasseh Theoph. It is Jacobs Option not a formal Invocation his desire not his praier we may suppose rather that Jacob sends up his hearts desire to God that the Angel which did alwaies deliver him might be a Guardian to these Lads when Isaac blessing Jacob said Gen. 27. vers 29. Let the people serve Thee and Nations bow down to Thee doth he therefore invocate Nations and People or rather pray to God that he would bring it to pass This answer sufficeth if Jacob by the Angel understood a created Spirit but the context makes it evident That the Angel stands for Christ the second person of the Sacred Trinity because he is join'd in this Benedicton with the God of Abraham God before whom my Fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk the God that fed me all my life long until this day the Angel which redeemed me from all evil bless the Lads Observe I pray what great d Oratione quarta contra Arrianos Athanasius saith to this place having prov'd the unity of the Father and the Son because they are join'd in the same prayer 1 Thess 3. 11. Now God himself and our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ direct our way unto you He proceeds to declare That no man can pray to receive any thing from the Father and from an Angel or any other creature no man will say let God and the Angels give Thee and then directly answers this Benediction of the Patriarch That he did not joine a created Angel with God that made him in the blessing neither forsaking him that nurisht him doth he seek for an Angels blessing upon the children but stiling him the Angel that deliver'd him out of all his troubles he manifests that he did not understand any created spirit but Christ the word whom he joines with God the Father in the blessing knowing that he is called The Angel of his great Councel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the Septuagint Herunto agrees a Thes l. 30. cap. 10. Cyrill of Alexandria The Patriarch of God means the Father and by the Angel the word of the Father whose name is the Angel of his councel b Hemil. 66. in Gen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Chrysostom makes God and the Angel to be the same whose benediction Jacob implores A graceful Soul to God saith He how doth he retain the memory of his favors fixt in his heart He that nurisht me from my youth hitherto he that deliver'd me out of all evil bless these Lads 'T is much the Learned Cardinalshould take no notice of these signal Autorities but bring a Text in two regards impertinent to his purpose as you have heard to prove the Invocation of Angels which would not however infer the Invocation of Saints departed Because Angels are Gods ministring Spirits and more constant in the affaires here below then are the Saints in Heaven of whose Ministerie upon earth we have no account given in the Holy Scripture only that they sing and Bless God and worship him incessantly in Heaven Phil. Give me leave to proceed and shew how our Doctors prove the Invocation of Angels and then I will manifest likewise how it confirms the Invocation of Saints Bellarmine brings three Texts out of the book of Job to shew the early usage of praying to the Angels Job 5. 1. Call now if there be any to answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turn Job 19. 21. Have pity upon me have pity upon me O my freinds for the Hand of the Lord hath touched me Job 33. 23. If there be a Messenger with him an Interpreter one of a thousand to shew unto man his uprightness Then he is gratious unto him and saith Deliver him from going down to the pit for I have found a ransom Theoph. If these be proofs nothing can miss the mark if calling be invocating and Saints be Angels then the first Text may stand the Cardinal in some stead and Eliphaz his Autority must uphold it But the context shews the meaning of the words Eliphaz would have Job enquire and call any one that fears God to witness whether any perished being Innocent Chap. 4. vers 7. or whether a man can be more pure then his Maker Vers 17. Job had complain'd sadly of his affliction and his friends design'd to put him upon the search whether these severe Judgments did not fall upon him for some secret sins The second proof is as wide from the mark as Heaven from the earth his three friends did persecute his Innocency with their grand error and mistake That God never afflicts but for sin and Job intreateth them to spare and pity him For why do ye persecute me as God and are not satisfied with my flesh as it follows in the next vers 22. Phil. Bellarmine shews how S t Augustin in his Commentary upon Job refers both these Texts unto the Angels Theoph. Read S t Augustin in his second book of Retract c. 13. and you will find him doubtful whether he should call it his book Liber cui titulus Annotationes in Job utrum meus habendus est haud facile dixerim Or rather his who collected his imperfect notes he tells us his
est c. We must acknowledg that the dead do not know the things that are don upon Earth I shall give you a full account of this Book hereafter Next for S t Jerome Bellarmin saith he seems to say as much in his Book against Vigilantius where in truth the Father doth assert of the evil Angels That they wander far and wide thro-out the World and by their celerity are every where present But we must of necessity understand him only in a comparative sense their agility and swiftness makes them instantly to pass from place to place whereas gross Bodies required a slow and successive motion but Ubiquity and Omnipresence is an Attribute of God Incommunicable to a Creature Again These evil Angels may be conceiv'd present in all places by their numbers and multitude not by their individual persons Phil. But i Si Agnus est ubique ergo hi qui cum to sunt ubique sunt S t Jerome in that Book argues fully for the ubiquity of the Saints in Heaven because it is written of them That they follow the Lamb whither soever be goeth Rev. 14. 4. And if the Lamb be every where present therefore they that are with him Theoph. This Argument cannot hold for then much more the human Nature and Body of Christ united unto the Divine Nature should be omnipresent which I know none to assert and therefore S t Augustins Interpretation of that place is this k Lib. de Sancta Virginit c. 27. Quid est eum sequi nisi imitari To follow him is to imitate him not as he is the only Son of God by whom all things were made but as he is the Son of Man giving us an example of all things necessary to be sollowed Bellarmin knew well the Invalidity of S t Jeromes consequence and therefore did not urge it for an Argument Phil. But that you love to contradict and spin out your Discourse you need not have perplex'd your self and me with these Answers For you know Bellarmine approves of neither of these two ways of the Saints knowledg in Heaven Because saith he celerity cannot suffice but true ubiquity is requir'd to hear all the Praiers that shall be made to a Saint perhaps in all places of the World at the same time And again he saith That neither Angels nor Saints in Heaven altho they were present with us can naturally know our mental Praiers Theoph. We account these to be substantial Arguments against the Invocation of Saints and Angels because they cannot be every where present to hear Praiers made from all parts and because they know not our thoughts and mental Praiers Phil. But these are answer'd by the the two next ways he proposeth and approveth of the Saints comprehension and knowledg One is l Sanctos in Deo omnia videre quae ad ipsos aliquo modo tertinent That the Saints do sec all things in God that concerns them even from the first instant of their blessedness Theoph. I pray tell me why doth the Cardinal following Aquinas and other School-men put in that tearm of Limitation In the Face of God they see and know all things that concern them We know all things are in God and in him represented as in a Glass and Mirror and therefore Pope Gregory the Great asks the Question m Quid est quod ibi nesciant ubi scientem omnia sciunt What can they be ignorant of who know him that knoweth all things And therefore In speculo Trinitatis as the Schools speak in the Beatifical Vision one would think all things should be manifest to the Saints and Angels and not only such things as concern them Phil. The reason is plain God is Speculum voluntarium such a Glass as represents according to his good pleasure and what he thinks meet unto those who have the happiness to see his Face And therefore the Angels who alwaies behold the Face of God yet know not all things not the day of Judgment not the Mystery of Christs Incarnation and Mans Redemtion not the calling of the Gentiles c. until they learn'd these things by the Preaching of the Gospel amidst the Congregation of the Faithful so saith S t Paul Ephes 3. 10. To the end that now unto Principalities and Powers in Heavenly places might be known by the Church the manifold Wisdom of God Theoph. Your Answer is rational and excellently serves my purpose Such as see the Face of God do not in that Beatifical Vision see and know all things but only such things as pleaseth him to revele unto them And therefore the fourth Opinion which Bellarmin mentions was That God doth revele unto the Saints in every instant such Particulars as concern them and so when Praiers are made unto them the Lord makes the Blessed Saints to know and hear their Praiers by particular Revelation Hereupon I demand how this is prov'd That it is the good pleasure of God constantly to revele unto the Saints whatsoever doth concern them or all the Praiers that are made unto them Phil. I do not find the Cardinal attemts to prove this because he had reason to take it for granted Theoph. Or rather because he had no proof to offer and in truth he doth not so well approve this way of particular Revelation from God to the Saints because as he argues well n Si indigerent Sancti novâ revelatione Ecclesia non diceret omnibus Sanctis Orate pro nobis sed peteret aliquando à Deo ut eis revelaret preces nostras If the Saints know our Praiers which we make to them by Revelation from God we should not so constantly say to them Pray for us but rather somtimes beseech Almighty God that he would please to revele our Praiers to those Saints we Invocate Phil. He prefers that Opinion as most profitable That the Saints in Glory alwaies standing in the presence of God and beholding his Face do in that Beatificall Vision behold all things which relaâ—e unto them and need no particular Revelation and therefore in the Vision of God they know and hear the Praiers that are made unto them even from the first instant of their Beatitude Theoph. And so three waies Bellarmin doth not approve whereby the Saints and Angels are concern'd to know our state and hear our Praiers Now the fourth which he sticks too That from the first instant of their happiness all things which concern them are manifest and revel'd unto them This cannot be true for then the Saints must know when they shall reassume their Bodies which certainly concerns them and so by consequence They must know the Day of the general Resurrection and of Judgment which we deny They must also know all the Praiers that shall be made to them unto the Worlds end and so by consequence the end of the World So must the Angels from the beginning know the Praiers that shall be made to them the laps'd state of
in these words h Oratione in Athanasium Do thou graciously look down upon us out of Heaven and direct this Holy People and feed and cherish us in peace and in our conflicts guide and supportus and bring us unto the same state of Glory with thy Self and such Blessed Spirits as are like Thee Theoph. Nazianzen was a great Orator and makes such Apostrophe's severally to the Saints upon whom he made his Panegyrics and yet this will not infer That he did believe they heard him or that he made this Application to them by way of Invocation no more then he did to Julian the Apostate after his decease unto whom he directs his Speech for a whole Leaf together in the close of his second Invective Nay you shall find this Orator somtimes to correct himself by an Epanor thosis in the midst of his Rhetorical Apostrophes in his first Invective against Julian in the words of the Prophet Isaiah he calls upon the Heaven and Earth to hear him a Ibid. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Hear O Heaven and give ear O Earth And then it follows Hear O Soul of Constantius the Great if there be any sense in thee of these inferior things In his Fathers Funeral Oration he saith Now he advantages the Church of God more by his Praiers then before by his Doctrine and Preaching if it be not presumtion to say so And in the Funeral Oration of his Sister Gorgonia he is more expresly doubtful Whether this honor is given to the Saints departed as to be sensible of those things that are spoken of them Phil. b Illudsi non est dubitantis sed affirmant Bellarmin takes notice of such Passages and saith Those ifs are not of one doubting but asserting as when S t Paul said to Philemon If thou count me a Partner receive him as my self ver 17. he did not doubt of Philemons affection Theoph. The Circumstances shew the contrary and Bellarmin offers no proof of his consident Assertion but only because It may be so taken in one place it must be in these If your Doctors groundless Shifts and Answers must go for Oracles you may carry all before you For instance in the first If of Nazianzen in his Apostrophe to Constantius after his decease Hear O thou Blessed Soul of great Constantius If thou hast any knowledg of these things I speak c. Dares Bellarmin suppose that Constantius did hear Nazianzen Or that he was a Blessed Soul in Heaven who was so great a Persecuter of the Orthodox Christians in his life time and Protector of the Arrians and upon this account I much wonder how this Holy Father could make such honorable mention of an Arrian Emperor as to stile him c The most famous of Princes that ever were encreasing the heritage of Christ to his power For his zeal of the Orthodox Faith he is generally stiled Gregory the Divine But here we must reckon him to be a vehement Orator and many of his Sentences must be made good only by some Figures of Rhetoric Hyperbolies Apostrophes and the like Phil. Is this your way to answer the Fathers You formerly severely censur'd this way in Bellarmin when he said Chrysostom in many places spoke like an Orator and do you now fall under the same condemnations Theoph. I have given an answer unto Bellarmins Arguments out of Nazianzen and now I make this necessary Observation to the Reader for greater caution Phil. S t Hilary liv'd in this fourth Century an eminent Bishop in France who in his Commentary upon the 129 Psalm tells us That the Angels are Presidents of Churches Theoph. He brings a strange proof of the Assertion Rev. 2. 3. from the Angels of the Churches of Asia which are generally taken by Interpretors for the Bishops of those Churches and they cannot possibly stand for the Heavenly Powers and Spirits because some Infirmities are imputed to them Rev. 2 ver 4. That the Angel of the Church of Ephesus had left his first love that he should repent and do his first works That the Angel of the Church of Laodicea was luke-warm cap. 3. 16. Phil. I pray give me leave to urge the whole Testimony of this Father he saith We may in a probable sense call the Angels The Eyes of the Lord and his Ears his Hands and his Feet for they are his Ministring Spirits And altho the Divine Nature who knoweth all things need not their information yet our infirmity in Praing to God and deserving his savor needs their Spiritual Intercession Theoph. I pray How doth the Ministery and Intercession of Angels prove the Invocation of Saints Such impertinent Quotations are only brought to fill up the number and weary the Reader Phil. Bellarmin shews how the same Holy Father in Psal 124. speaks alike of the Intercession of the Holy Apostles and Prophets Theoph. True he doth Allegorize the Mountains which stand round about Jerusalem a Nec leve praesidium in Apostolis vel Patriarchis Prophetis vel potius in Ang. to be The guard of Saints or rather saith he of Angels about Gods People But leaving S t Hilaries Allegories I pray observe what the Prophet David adds immediatly As the Mountains stand about Jerusalem so the Lord is round about his People from hence-forth even for ever And Hilary thereupon declares b Benum quidem praesidium Angeli sed melius Dei The safe-guard of the Angels is good but of God much better Mean while here is not one syllable of our Invocation of Saints or Angels but only of their Intercession and Protection And by the way you may take this note along with you That Hilary was as bitter in his Invectives and had as great an Indignation against the Emperor Constantius as you but now heard Gregory Nazianzen did extol him Phil. It is not my work to commit the Fathers I proceed in Bellarmins proofs his next out of S t Ambrose is full and without Exception We must pray unto the Angels who are our Guards and to the Saints and Martyrs whose Patronage we may challenge as being of our own Substance they can intreat for our sins who have washt away their own if any they had with their Blood These are Gods Martyrs and our Bishops Over-seers of our Life and Actions let us not c Lib. de Viduis ultra medium Obsecrandi sunt Ang. c. Obs sunt Martyres Corporis pignora blush to admit these as Intercessors for our infirmities because They when they did overcome were yet sensible of the infirmity of the body Theoph. Saint Ambrose was but a young Divine a novice and Cathechumen when he was chosen Bishop of Millam he was train'd up in Civill affairs pleading Causes as a Deputy of the Country administring justice therfore we have no teason to ground our Faith upon his dictates He speaks often piously but not alwaies Orthodoxly do you allow that passage of his in this very proof
I will proceed no farther in vain Theoph. I give you thanks for your release It hath bin no small trouble to search your Autorities and discover in most of them either Impertinency or Forgery And withal I pray observe That as your Pretensions unto the Testimony of Holy Scripture of General and Provincial Councils for 700 years after Christ of Fathers for the three first Centuries have bin altogether ineffectual to prove your Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints That as your pretensions unto the Testimony of Fathers for the three next Centuries many of them have bin impertinent others forg'd and the rest contradicted either by themselves or others in their time So you have not attemted to shew for the practice of this Doctrine That it was receiv'd by any Church in her public Offices and therefore at most it must pass for the privat Opinion of some Doctors not the consent of the Church until your Church did introduce it among other Innovations You do not shew how early because you cannot within 600 years of Christ and afterwards the Superstition crept in upon the World slowly and by insensible degrees one National Church following the example of another a Niceph. lib. 15. c. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. We read indeed in the Greek Church of one Peter Gnapheus or Fullo as the Latins interpret who in the latter end of the fifth Century was by craft Patriarch of Antioch he was an Heretic and Theopaschite maintaining That the God-head suffered upon the Cross and he added to that Trisagium Holy is the Lord Holy is the Strong Holy is the Immortal who was Crucified for us And for this cause he was condemn'd for an Hereseic in a Council at Rome Felix the third being Pope Anno Christi 483. This Peter Fullo b Eâ—n Tom. 3. p. 600. as Nicephorus likewise shews appointed a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That in their Praiers Men should call upon the Mother of God and Invoke her Divine Name Now it is observable That Baronius speaks much of this P. Fullo and of his Heresie and quotes Nicephorus and yet takes no notice of his introducing the Invocation of the Blessed Virgin but tells us another blind Story How this Fullo consecrated one Xenaias a Persian Bishop of Hierapolis before he was Baptized and said b Dixit sufficere pro Bapt. Consecrationem Anno Christi 483. That his Consecration might suffice instead of Baptism He farther observes how this Bishop Xenaias proved a great Eiconoclast and destroier of Images and so glories that the Enemies of Image worship had such a president as a barbarous Persian Unbaptized mean while never considering how it may be retorted upon him and his Church That an arch Heretic Petrus Fullo first introduc'd the Invocation of Saints into some parts of the Church Catholic in the public Office of Praiers That Simon Magus and some Jewish Christians first Invocated Angels That the Heathen Philosophy brought in the Intercession of middle Deities Will you now be pleas'd to hear some of our Arguments against this Doctrine Phil. Willingly For I expect they should be like your Answers of no great moment and so put off with the less difficulty Theoph. You may please your self with your own conceits but I am confident that upon serious consideration they will perplex even the refractory and convince the Ingenious Reader Phil. Their goodness depends not upon your Testimony Let me hear them Theoph. Our Blessed Savior taught his Disciples to Pray He gave them a Praier which should be a Form and Pattern to all succeeding Generations and therefore he said After this manner pray ye Matth. 6. And Tertullian in his Book De Oratione calls the Lords Praier Legem Orationis The Law and Rule of Praier Now in that Praier we have no Invocation of Saints but rather Direction given when we Pray to call upon God the Father which is in Heaven Phil. c Ibid. c. 20. Non de eo qui Orandus sed de rebus quae petendie sunt admonuit Discipulos Bellarmin answers this Argument saying That our Blessed Savior here taught his Disciples not to whom they should make their Praiers but what they should ask in Praier Theoph. Bellarmin saith but he doth not prove The Disciples request to Christ was concerning the matter and manner of Praier both Lord teach us to Pray Matth. 69. And our Savior answers both After this manner therefore pray ye and when ye pray say Our Father c. Luke 11. 2. Phil. Yours at best is but a Negative Argument That because our Blessed Savior did not in this place teach us to desire the Praiers of the Saints in Heaven therefore we ought not so to do Wherefore do you desire your Friends that are living to pray for you Theoph. Because we have warrant so to do from other places of Holy Scripture But neither here nor elsewhere have our Savior or the Apostles taught us to call upon the Saints in Heaven for the assistance of their Praiers Phil. By this Argument as Bellarmin shews we ought not to pray to God the Son or God the Holy Ghost because our Savior hath here taught us to say only Our Father Theoph. The Father is not in the Lords Praier taken Personally but as God The Blessed Trinity Father Son and Spirit is our Father by Creation and Redemption and Adoption Hence your Learned Jesuit Maldonate upon the place a Magis illorum probo sententiam qui totam hic Trinit c. I approve rather their Opinion who hold That the whole Trinity is here call'd Our Father And it is near unto Blasphemy to say with Bellarmin That the Exclusive or Negative Argument from this Praier holds as well against Christ and the Holy Ghost as against the Saints The Father Son and the Holy Ghost are essentially one Creator and Father of all Men. The Saints are Creatures and no comparison between them or consequence from one to the other Phil. You have used your self so much to bitterness of Speech That it is become even natural to you to impute unto our Doctors Blasphemy and Forgery and Impertinency and Follyâ— and what not I pray produce your Arguments and forbear your Censures Theoph. As the Apostle spake in another sense so I for an Apology must say You have constrained me but I forbear The next Argument against Invocation of Saints is that of S t Paul Rom. 10. 14. How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed Seeing we must believe only in God and in Christ not in the Saints therefore we must not call upon them We may believe the Saints but not believe in the Saints Now the words of the Apostle are How shall they call upon him b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in whom they have not believ'd Phil. Bellarmin answers this Argument by shewing That the Apostle speaks of calling upon God Now we must believe on him before we
our Arguments against your Doctrine We have already shew'd that your Doctors can make no proof or give any assurance that the Saints in Heaven do hear our Praiers and therefore that we should call upon them in vain But yet further as to our thoughts and mental Praiers the Saints cannot discerne them and therefore are not meet Objects of our Invocation Phil. Yes in the glass of the Trinity even mens thoughts may be represented to them Theoph. Never tell me what may be but do you believe they do discerne our though's you know in Scripture to search the hearts and know the thoughts of men is made an incommunicable property of the divine Nature Thou even thou only knowest the hearts of men saith Solomon 1 Kings 8. 39. Phil. To this Bellarmin answers that God only naturally and by hiw own vertue know's mens thoughts but the Saints by Revelation and the beatific Vision Theoph. These are meer Dictates without proof Devices to shift of unanswerable Arguments How can your great Doctor prove that God reveles the thoughts of Men and Women and Children and their mental Praiers to the Saints in Heaven or that they behold them in the Beatifical Vision whereas he is foret to acknowledg that other things are conceled from them for instance neither Angels nor Saints know the day of Judgment Phil. This wise discourse signifies but little For if the Saints in glory cannot difcern nor hear mental Praier let us put up vocal Supplications unto them Theoph. If you cry aloud and they cannot hear you what then however there is more in this consideration then so Would you have the blessed Virgin as soon interceed for Hypocrites as for sincere Christians shall Peter admit you all promiscuously into Heaven such Mediators as you make the Saints ought to be qualified for their high office with a discerning faculty of the sincerity of men's hearts who call upon them and withal when men are speechless upon their death-beds and most need the help of their Fraiers by your last supposition they must go without them Phil. Why is this Argument of not discerning the thoughts of mens hearts of force against the Saints Intercession in Heaven more then against the Intercession and praiers of Saints upon Earth for one another Theoph. Your selves make the wide difference between the Intercession of the Saints in heaven and of the faithful here upon Earth And that shall be the ground of our next Argument against your Invocation of Saints and their Intercession because you make their Mediation much to derogate from the Meditation and Intercession of Christ Phil. That indeed is a material Objection but how do ye prove it a Ibid. Cap. 20. Bellarmin saith expresly We do not call upon the Saints to perform the Offioe of Christ but only that they would assist us with their Praiers the more easily for us to obtain our requests from God thro Christ He acknowledges Christ to be the one only Mediator between God and man by way of Redemption and satisfying the debt and by Nature as being God and man and because he only stands in need of no other Mediator whatsoever others obtain of God either for themselves or others they obtain it thro Christ. Now altho the Saints and Angels do not satisfie for our sins and pay the debt yet they may beseech God for Christs fake to forgive them Theop. If this were all we would not much contend with them about the Saints Intercession as prejudiciall to the Mediation and Intercession of Christ But the Doctrine of your Schools goes further That the Saints intercede for us not only by their Praiers but also by their merits b Sent. l. 4. dist 45. ad finem so Peter Lombard the Mr. of the Sentences Interprets the Act of Intercession We pray to the Saints to Intercede for us i. e. That their merits may become our assistance and Immediately before he saith c Intercedunt merito affectu The Saints interceed with God for us by their Merits whilst their Merits plead for us and by their Love desiring to have our requests granted Bonaventure explains him Altho first he the Saints in glory Non sunt in statu merendi are not in a state of Meriting and are sufficiently recompenc'd for their Merits in this life d In 4. Sent. dist 45. yet because they did supererogate much They have obtain'd such honor by there Merits not only to deserve beatitude and glory for themselves but also to prove suffragans for others so that he who was before unworthy by Praying to the Saints thro their Patronage becomes worthy Now we say that thro the Merits of Christ we who are otherwise altogether unworthy have access with boldness unto the Father and therefore we implore his Patronage and Advocation and Intercession and take him as the only Mediator between God and man and for all this we have the full and express Authority of Gods word Thro Him we have access by one Spirit unto the Father In whom we have boldness and access with confidence thro faith in Him Ephe 2. 18. and 3. 12. Again If any Man Sin we have an Advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous e Quia multa supererog suis meritis adepti sunt locum c. and he is the Propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world 1 John 1. 2. Again There is one God and one Mediator between God and Man the Man Christ Jesus who gave himselfe a Ransom for us 1 Tim. 2. v. 5. 6. Phil. I have shew'd above how Bellarmin acknowledgeth Christ to be the one only Mediator by way of Redemtion and solution of the debt but the Saints may be Mediators by way of Intercession Theoph. If you meant only the Intercession of Praiers it were tolerable but your Doctors bring in the intercession of their Merits and that implies satisfaction of the debt at least in some part their Superogation supplying our defect Phil. This refers unto another Point to be discust hereafter touching the Saints Merits and Superogation and therefore we will not now determine it Theoph. Mean while upon your own grosse suppositions you make the Saints so to Interpose with God for us as to Intrench upon the Intercession of Christ who is therefore represented to be our Advocate because He is a propitiation for Sin 1 John 2. 1 2. As our Mediator because He gave himself a Ransom for all 1 Tim. 2. 6. Phil. You may take our Blessed Saviour as the principal in Intercession and satisfaction and the Blessed Saints may come in as Inferiour Advocates and Patrons Theoph. This is the Rock against which your Schole-men generally Ship-wrack Concience First They take all things taught or practis'd in the Church of Rome as infallibly true and then when any thing is objected out of Gods word or the Testimony of the Ancients against them they salve themselves by a