also in his right â—its who in 5. against Marcion writeth thus Ascendit in sublimitatem id est Coelum Captiuam duxit captiuitatem id est mortem vel humanam seruitutem See then Fathers expounding it of nor Diuels nor Saued and yet this confident Ignorant that scarce euer read Father it is probable but who so bold as blinde Bayard pronounceth that These freed Captiues heer could bee no other than the soules of the Fathers whom Christ deliuered forth of hell because they were nor Diuels nor Saued in his opinion They were not Diuels very magisterially spoken and pro Imperio because this learned Theologue saith They were not Athanasius saith It was the Diuell that he captiued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hauing made captiue the Tyrant of captiuity To. 1. de salutari aduentu Iesu Christi and yet Athanasius neuer feared to be challenged for bringing back the Diuels into heauen vnto whom God Almighty had sworne in his wrath They should neuer more return into his Rest Might he not lead them along the aire and shut them our cast them off at heauen-gates Captiuity is actiuely or passiuely taken Those that held in captiuity or such as were held Christ led them both death and damnation the Diuell the graue the Chief and Principal in the dwellings of Ham the Commanders of the Prince of darknes of whom hee made a shew openly and triumphed ouer them in his flesh They might be the Righteous the Saued though you deny it that were formerly in captiuity vnto their enemies and now freed deliuered to serue Christ Iesus which the Fathers call if you euer read it a better captiuity whether you hould them in their right wits or no I knowe not I am sure your wits and wisdome are far asunder though no great substance in either Very farre or could it haue dropped from your penne They cannot be the soules of the Saued and yet Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers whom Christ deliuerd out of hell who peraduenture were not saued but cast into another hell being taken thence Goe learn to speak and write Sir giddy Goose-gagger and then vndertake to stop the Protestants mouthes You must not look to prate and talk idlely to them as you doo to your Proselytes poore fooles that are hood-winked willingly by each Buzzard to blinde obedience You may let these freed Captiues be these or those deliuered saued so or so you cannot inferre they were deliuered by Christ therefore they were freed out of hell Let them not haue been in heauen before our Sauiour I deny it necessary they were therefore in hell Hell is one thing saith Tertull. lib. 4. against Marcion Abraham ' s bosome is another thing For Abraham saith A great depth is betwixt these two Regions which permitteth not any to passe to and fro Neither could the rich man haue lift vp his eies but to places aboue him and farre aboue him by reason of that infinite distance betwixt that height and that depth That Region then I call Abraham ' s bosome which though it be not heauen is yet higher than hell Thus hee vpon warrant of our Sauiours words who placeth Abraham farre aboue that place of torment and so the one no part of the other And so likewise resolueth that profound Diuine Saint Augustine in his 99 the memorable Epistle to Euodius instantly rehearsed by the Discourser Non vtique sinus ille Abrahae id est secretae cuiusdam quietis habitatio aliqua pars inferorum esse credenda est Then without doubt the Bosome of Abraham which is an habitation of secret rest cannot be thought to haue been any part of hell You dare oppose Saint Augustine dare you not It is true which that illuminate Doctor auerreth in the same Epistle None but an Infidell will deny Christs descent into hell and as true that none but an Asse or an Idiot will say that therefore necessarily hee went thither to fetch vp the fathers that were there in hel Saint Augustine denieth them to haue been there it is plain and not denied by your Masters Indeed it is answered that Saint Augustine did not knowe what the besome of Abraham was but that hee applieth that Text Acts 2. 27. to the pains of Purgatory is but a coniecture at the best S. Augustine saith that Christ deliuered some from the pains of hell and interpreteth himself not to mean That of those holy soules that were in the Bosom of Abraham nor of the souls of the Damned that were in hell-torments out of which is no redemption Heerupon you think wisely he must needs mean the pains of Purgatory and no other It is the doctrine of your owne Schools that such as were raised at any time from death to life were not certainly doomed nor confined into their stations but in regard GOD foresaw they should liue again extraordinarily he suspended their determination this way or that way irreuocably Why might not Saint Augustine mean some such thing Without doubt he did not mean it of Purgatory For Saint Thomas 3. p. q. 52. ar 8. resolueth that the soules of Purgatory were not freed nor deliuered by Christs descent thither his merit extending vnto eternall deliuerance and vnto no partiall or temporall freedome But somewhat you would say though poor man you be to seek in the manifold labyrinths of Purgatory Limbus and Hell out of which wiser than you cannot winde The word Hell is ambiguous in the Writings of the Fathers Sometime it is put for the state and condition sometime for the place and receptacle of soules and that in a different manner in opposition to a twofold heauen For earth is respectiuely called Superi and the state of men liuing by the selfe-same name and so in opposition any Dead are Inferi and their place and receptacle Infernus Secondly Superi is the highest heauen and they that do liue there are so stiled In opposition heerto the name of Inferi hath a two fold interpretation First for a place or state contrary to the state and place of the highest heauen this is hell properly or of the Damned Secondly for a state or place negatiuely opposed and not contrary to heauen and so euery place and state which is not that highest in the highest heauen is called Inferi and may so be as Pamelius hath obserued vpon Tertullian lest you take it for a Protestant deuice This Fellow perchance knew not this before and therefore wheresoeuer the Fathers speak of Christ's descent into hell and carrying thence the Fathers into the highest heauens hee faineth Limbo vnto himself euen as the Bell tinketh whatsoeuer the foole thinketh when the Fathers meant nothing lesse then so but alteration of state and place See then as many places as the booke will hold They may prooue the descent of Christ into hell which as an Article of our Creed wee willingly embrace The descent to Popish Limbus they doe not prooue the which no Father euer dreamed of
then heare them not Verba legis proferendo in the opinion of Saint Augustine so long as they speake Law This is not our Heresie but Catholique Doctrine De legis ac Mosis doctrinâ loquitur perindè enim est acsi dicat Omnia quae Lex Moyses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruate saith Maldonate no friend nor fauourer of Protestants And after him Barradas another Iesuite in this resolution a very Protestant Hoc est saith he omnia quae legi Dei mandatis non repugnāt Ergo bound in the text with this restriction as you must and it is a plaine Gagge to the Gospel Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and hee that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me Therfore c. You know not what you say All this we constantly beleeue But first I answere this is a text indeede to purpose to vindicate authority to the Church and her Pastors but not expressely which is your vndertaking by necessary consequence and indenied it is but you haue tied your selfe foole as you were vnto expresse words and expresse words are not here extant Secondly perhaps it is not so pat as you imagine because the men intended there and then were of another making fashion and account than euer were any since or before and therefore their priuiledges more peculiar of greater extent insomuch as that all were not to be heard so respectiuely as they were they without Scripture or allegation of Scripture hauing mission immediate from the Sonne himselfe which none euer had but they But thirdly I answere take it with Saint Cyprian Epist 96. and others in a larger extent ad omnes praepositos qui Apostolis vicariâ ordinatione succedunt vnto the Gouernours in the Church who succeede the Apostles in the Churches gouernement by imposition of hands and ordination and goe and answere your selfe out of Saint Bernard thus Be the commandement tendred by God or man as Gods agent it is to be receiued with like reuerence Vbi tamen Deo contraria non praecipit homo As farre as man doth not gain-say the will and commandement of the most high A flat Protestant in his assertion and vpon reason For a Nuntio must goe to his Commission Matth. 16. 19. I will giue vnto thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen whatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen Which text hath no such mention of relying vpon Church or Pastors in matters of faith expressed Nor hitherto perhaps any such meaning Your Compeeres were wont to cry vs downe with this text For Saint Peters iurisdiction ouer all and the Popes vniuersall power in claue potestatis You now waue that power it seemeth and cast aside that key and lay hold vpon that other key of knowledge Shall wee belieue your Puniship or them This cannot be good Catholique vnitie in so fundamentall a poynt of your Faith except for neere alliance betwixt Saint Peter and his Spouse the Church whatsouer is remembred of the one must be likewise true of the other But out with your Table-bookes you that haue them amongst you and Note the man will giue you something worth the noting that is our Sauiour doth not say whomsoeuer but whatsoeuer We take it and note it and meane to make good vse of it inferring thereupon through your owne confession that therefore St. Peter by Christs commission must in case of binding and loosing and executing the power of the Keyes which whether it be all one with binding and losing you are not agreed amongst your selues let whomsoeuer alone for euer and betake himselfe vnto whatsoeuer that is not meddle any more with Kings and Princes with cantoning of their Kingdomes and estates but content himselfe with whatsoeuer matters of fact inferiour matters of Faith and the like decisions at least with Causes and Persons within his owne Verge indeede Causes that is knots and difficulties for Persons are none of that combination So to shake hands with your memorable obseruation Therefore in matters of faith euen by their owne Bible wee must not relye vpon the written word onely but vpon whatsoeuer Saint Peter shall tie or vntie which we in this case are contented to doe and to say with that Councell of which he was a part you say President visum est spiritui sancto nobis the decision of the Catholique Church wee receiue as the dictate of the holy Spirit but be you sure it is the iudgment of the Church for you are good Proficients in equiuocation and present vs the Church vpon no better termes then if you should tender vs a man of straw for a perfect man or a shadow for a substance Indeede to this effect that is to as little purpose as that which went before In cases of controuersies and of doubts in matters of fact or ciuill cognisance which could not be determined by ordinary course of Law in the seuerall Counties as it were or Places of iudicature the Parties plaintife and defendants were to referre it to the Leuits Priests and Iudge in these daies that is to the Church and to the Pope you dreame and let your dreame goe once for truth and they must heare it determine it definitiuely It was capitall to refuse or to appeale Good but yet this commeth not home for they must determine it according vnto Law to which supreamest decision both concurre the Rule of right and determiner of right according to that rule In our construction to our present question the iudgement of the Church according vnto Scripture the selfe-same that the Protestant maintaineth In this text I graunt more is to be seene then in all the rest viz. when the word of the Lord came vnto Agge the Prophet Which thing how it sorteth with the present position I cannot tell speake those that can But the word that then came vnto him was this in the 12. verse Aske the Priests concerning the Lawe And the Priests answered according vnto Law thus and thus And this is resoluing of a doubt by the Priests but the doubt resolued according vnto Law so the written word is relyed vpon Not I my selfe the word onely Quis enim respondet Did euer any man deny that the Church and her Pastors are not to be heard speaking out of or else according vnto Scriptures Shew this and take it else Nihil ad rhombum That of 2 Chron. 19. 8. is all one with Deuter. 17. 8. an exemplification of that rule a practice according vnto that direction there somewhat more For hereby it appeareth that the Precept was not for Tell the Church and heare her Pastors but goe take the ordinary course appointed the iudgement of a standing court mixt of Clergie and of the Laitie as it were our court of high Commission or indeede the Starre-chamber consisting of both robes
shall not depart is Gods promise Mans promise reciprocall is I will not depart from them If I depart that is if man faile They may and shall depart God is then free Now this supposed what assurance is there for my words shall not depart c So your first Text is mistaken peraduenture in the meaning but without peraduenture in the allegation It is Esay 5â— 21. not as you tender it from your aduisers 49. 21. And lastly it is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Iewes in particular conuerted vnto Christ as it seemeth by Saint Paul Rom. 11. 26. and not of the Church of the Christians already conuerted and so you misapply as well as mistake But more ridiculously in your second Text Iohn 14. 16. For haue you read or heard that euer any Protestant maintained That the holy Ghost can erre I suppose not I beleeue you are not so much past shame to say so and yet your conclusion is so The spirit of truth cannot erre For hauing recited the Text of the Gospell your illation is Therefore the spirit of truth hath aboade for euer and shall abide for euer with the Church and consequently cannot erre What Sir cannot erre To my vnderstanding The Spirit of Truth cannot erre can you vnderstand it otherwise But let your barbarismes goe by to the point I answer first you faile and that confessedly in your vndertakings It is but consequently the Church cannot erre therefore confessed not expresly Secondly I answer out of the Text it selfe This promise is for comfort not instruction The Comforter shall abide for euer for Christ there spake of affliction which should ensue Thirdly were it punctually for direction we might reioyne It was a temporary promise a personall priuiledge to the Apostles you thought wee would say so belike supposing wee had no other shift silly men like your selfe therefore you come in with by way of preuention But the Apostles themselues could not abide for euer poore foole that knowest not there is duplex aeternum frequent in Scripture Gods euer and mans euer That for euerlasting as God is This for the terme of his being so for euer is thus no more then while you are all the dayes of your life But we seeke no aduantage we will not take it we grant Gods Spirit eternally assistant to the Catholique Church then represented in the Apostles and therefore we admit that you belye vs in your Proposition The Church can erre to be vnderstood of the Catholique Church as is expressed The third Text in order Esay 35. 8. is so farre from expressing the not erring of the Church that it is a question though such a Nouice as you know it not whether it be to be taken of the Church at all Hierome in his Comments expoundeth it of Christ who saith of himselfe Iohn 14. I am the way the truth the life An high way shall be there and a way and it shall be called the way of holinesse the vncleane shall not passe ouer it but it shall be for those The way faring men though fooles shall not erre therein Who told you that this way was the Church why not the Scripture which is also a way and called a way as to my remembrance the Church is not Ibi erit semita via mundissima quae sancta vocabitur c. There shall be a path saith Hierome and a most cleane way which shall be called Holy and which saith of himselfe I am the way by which way the polluted cannot passe where also we reade it spoken in the Psalme Blessed are the vndefiled in the way And this way that is our God shall be vnto vs so direct so plaine so open and champion that no wandring shall be there Fooles and silly men may walke therein vnto whom in the Prouerbs wisdome speaketh thus If there be any little ones let them come vnto me and shee hath spoken vnto the Fooles Come you and eate of my bread Thus Hierome vpon the place Tertullian in 4. against Marcion is indifferent for Christ the head of the Church or Faith in Christ the life of the Church Your Worship Sir Gagger out of your authoritie cast it meerely vpon the Church Satis pro Imperio if you can out-beare it Howsoeuer it is not expresse as it should be Not to purpose if it were expresse our question is not whether fooles can erre but whether the Church can erre The Church hath often beene compared to a Ship and now at last by you made a Ship of Fooles Content so you be Pilot in that Ship Sir Foole. Once at length you rightly bid vs goe see more For the Text of Iohn 16. 13. is more expresse than all the former He shall leade you into all truth But what if this text concerne not truth vpon Earth but Truth in Heauen What becommeth then of your Not erring Augustine and Bede encline that way What if it be personall vnto the Apostles alone not to the Church or their successours Hee will shew you the things to come and I haue many things to say vnto you but you cannot beare them now these such like passages doe more than seeme to conclude it vnto them What if he meant but All things that were necessary and conuenient for them to know so Theophylact Euthymius and others In this sort the Church is eternally directed so the Church directed cannot erre Matth. 18. 17. It is commaunded by authoritie Tell the Church and heare the Church No good proofe the Church cannot erre For the Scribes and Pharises were to be heard and obeyed yet had no assurance of infallibility Kings and Princes are to be obeyed yet haue they fallen into great enormities Ephes 5. 27. the Church is said to be glorious without spot or wrinckle or blame which is to be vnderstood de toâ—o integrato of the parts in Heauen and earth Of the time to come rather than present Without blame yet not without wrinckle euen here for error may be where blame is none Esay 9. 7. the Kingdome of Christ is to be established with iudgement and with iustice for euer and yet I know no such priuiledge annexed to iudgement or iustice of infallibility No more then Ezech. 37. 26. to a Couenant of peace an Euerlasting couenant to multiplying of them or placing Gods Sanctuary amongst them for euer Luk. 22. 32. and Matth. 23. 3. What correspondency haue they one with another not to speake of reference vnto the poynt In the former Peters faith was prayed for that it might not faile and yet Peter denied Christ Iesus If Peter were not the Church what maketh this Text amongst the rabbâ—e If Peter were the Church may erre as Peter fayled though not eternally one or other In the latter the Pharises must be heard And therefore will you say they erred not If they erred as doubtlesse they did then to what purpose are they pretended for not erring of the Church Much good may the
from all thy sinnes If this be acknowledged the Doctrine of our Communion Booke and practice of our Church accordingly as it is iniurious are those opposites vnto truth and lyers against their owne knowledge that impute it to vs which wee are confessed to deny That none but God can forgiue sinnes This must proceede out of faction or that which is worse But this fellow proceedeth vpon a further extreamity to strengthen a truth in it selfe with a lye made by himselfe that our Doctrine is contrary to our Bibles Matth. 9. 3. 8. To proue against vs that which we deny not viz. this power delegated vnto Priesthood thus you alledge But when the multitude saw it they maruailed and glorified God who had giuen such power vnto men as to forgiue sins Which words As to forgiue sinnes are not in our Bibles out of which you vndertake to proue your Assertion Nor in your owne Bibles follow which you will You haue added them out of your store to serue your owne turne contrary to Scripture and further contrary to sense Because that thing which amazed them then for which they glorified God was a thing sensible visible apprehended of all When they saw it Now see sinnes forgiuen they could not heare it pronounced belieue it they might Secondly the power there giuen is not ordinary as that of absolution is but extraordinary and miraculous to heale the sicke Peter and his Successour had that but very few or none had this You know it was answered a Pope once when he shewed a masse of Gold and Siluer to one and added The Church could not say now Siluer and Gold haue I none No quoth the other Nor can it say Arise and walke This is that power there mentioned could you see it not that of Absolution ordinary That of Ioh. 20. 21. Matth. 16. 19. Giue that power vnto the Apostles to forgiue sinnes But may it not be excepted it was a personall priuiledge I answere not so for I belieue it not The collation was originall to them as to those from whom it was to be conueyed vnto others But some are happely of that opinion and it may seeme probable vnto others you should haue cleared the Texts of that obiection and then your performance had beene to purpose Matth. 16. 19. May be vnderstood you meane of sinnes forgiuen but yet only secondarily for thesi secunda Because we reade in the Euangelist whatsoeuer and not whomsoeuer this place is to be vnderstood of any knot whatsoeuer indeede rather of the power of the sword than of the keyes And it seemeth that if this place be not personall to Peter and his successors as by this allegation for forgiuing it neither is nor can be then our most holy Father hath lost a maine pillar of his Papacy peculiar to Saint Peter and his successours So these Madianites sheath their swords one in anothers sides and crosse themselues in their owne positions In Matth. 18. 18. The Text is so expresse to the purpose that Origen Chrysostome Theophilact and Anastasius vnderstand it of all Christians whomsoeuer that sundry Roman Catholiques if Maldonate deceiue vs not vnderstand it of no more than ciuill policy Goe take it Whatsoeuer you binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer you loose in Earth it shall be loosed in Heauen as your selues will for the power and execution of the keyes Wee deny not in any sort that power is giuen vnto mortall men to forgiue sinnes on earth nor to binde by excommunication which is frequently practised and peraduenture too frequently amongst vs. Vnto that 1 Cor. 5. 5. Artic. 33. thus wee subscribe That person who by open denunciation of the Church is rightly cut off from the vnity of the Church and excommunicated ought to be auoyded and to be taken of the whole multitude of the faithfull as an Heathen and a Publican vntill hee be openly reconciled by penance and receiued into the Church by a Iudge that hath authoritie thereunto And in this sort Saint Paul deliuered Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Timoth. 1. 20. and forgaue the incestuous Corinthian 2 Cor. 2. 10. Which places by your direction wee haue seene and finde the Article agreeing with them As for 2 Cor. 5. 19. It is not to purpose of forgiuing sinnes by delegated authority vnto a Priest but of Reconciling by the whole office and function of the ministry God was in Christ saith the Apostle and reconciled the world vnto himselfe not imputing their sinnes vnto them and hath committed to vs the word of reconciliation So wee haue seene eyther nothing at all to purpose or else that of which wee made no question nor yet doe any at all As little in Fathers that affirme the same Irenaeus Lib. 5. cap. 14. saith the raising of Lazarus from death to life was a Symbole or figure of our Resurrection from Sinne to God Hee saith no more that I can see or finde Ambrose Lib. 1. it should be de paenitent cap. 7. Nor August Tract 49. in Iohn Nor Gregor hom 26. in Euangel if wee may belieue Bellarmine Lib. 3. de paenitent cap. 3. from whom you transcribed these testimonies without considering of these Fathers in their owne workes but so carelessely that if you were a Schoole-Boy lures in corpore for you referre vs to Gregor hom 26. in Euangel Whereas Bellarmine hath it 6. and to Ambrose Lib. de paenitentia as if Saint Ambrose had written but one Booke of that Argument not diuided into Chapters whereas Bellarmine directed you aright to the seauenth Chapter of his 1. Booke Was this securitie stupiditie or insolency in you or what was it XII That wee must not confesse our Sinnes but onely vnto God THat wee must not implyeth a flat negatiue or iniunction rather vnto the contrary Shew mee any such inhibition and I will say which I belieue you neuer will deserue at any Protestants hands you are a true dealing and an honest man Otherwise you are that you are and so will be still The most that hath beene saide is that priuate confession is free not tyed and therefore suus positiui not diuini Therefore happely of conueniency not of absolute necessity That in a priuate Confession vnto a Priest a peculiar enumeration of all Sinnes both of commission and omission with all circumstances and accidents is neuer necessary necessarily most an end not expedient nor yet all things considered required It is confessed that all Priests and none but Priests haue power to forgiue sinnes It is confessed that priuate Confession vnto a Priestâ— is of very ancient practice in the Church of excellent vse and practise being discreetly handled Wee refuse it to none if men require it if neede be to haue it We vrge it and perswade it in extreames Wee require it in case of perplexitie for the quieting of men disturbed and their consciences It hath beene so acknowledged by your fellowes that in the visitation of the sicke it is
likely to see The poore man can afford vs no Fathers heere his reading it seemeth would not reach vnto that and his good Masters were not at hand to help him I could furnish him if hee would thank mee to better purpose then his Scriptures haue but want I suppose he will rather then be beholding to a Protestant To conclude wee will not deny him that Euery man hath his Angell-keeper but within the Church at least not rambling abroad Are they not all of them ministring spirits sent forth to minister To whom where Not to euery man vnder heauen but with restriction Who shall be heyres of saluation In offensiue sort against their foes in defensiue manner for their good Thus the Scriptures speake and no otherwise thus the Fathers taught and no otherwise Not Euery man but Euery Christian man at his Birth or at his Baptisme hath his Guardian Angell deputed to him XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. WIth Ly and all Sir Gagger Not pray for vs Now I pray you who saith so No man will say or think so that beleeueth in his Creed The communion of Saints and can tell what connexion of the two parts of the Church of the Redeemed there is the one militant heere in Earth the other Regnant and Triumphant in Heauen Now a principall part of that Communion and Society which they haue with vs is to recommend our state and necessities vnto God our Father To which end God Almighty hath as wee professe in our Collect vpon Michaelmas Day appointed the Seruice of men and Angels in a wonderfull sort But somewhat there was or the man mistook Their Praying for vs may bee considered two waies either in Generall or in Particular For the peace of Sion the prosperity of Ierusalem the state and condition of the Church militant in earth thus in generall For Manasses in Captiuity Hezechiah beleaguered by Senacherib For this man or that man in particular vpon speciall motiues and occasions and that likewise two waies either ordinarily and of common course or specially by Delegation in extraordinary seruice Now this Proposition Holy Angels pray for vs doth not limit nor explaine the tearmes but is ambiguous as this peddler most an end frameth all in his Pack to calumniate and to deceiue Whether All Angels pray for All men or All for some men or some for all or some for some who can tell that was not of counsell to his pen and purpose As it lyeth lurking in fraudulent tearmes I can answere both waies and contradictory waies First Holy Angels pray not for vs and truly too Nor shall this Goose hiscere against my answere viz. Not euery holy Angell in speciall for euery man in particular Not at all times vpon any or all occasions I can also answer and truly too Holy Angels pray for vs. And so this Gagger may goe shoo the Goose That is It is a principall part of their performance in Heauen as they magnifie their Maker eternally so to recommend vnto Him vncessantly the Estate and good beeing of the Church of the Redeemed as yet in great Tribulations I adde yet further At all times some of them pray for the particular estate of some priuate Men Cities States Societies or Countries And the Holy Angell-keepers for their speciall charges commended vnto their trust by God at sometime some of them for all for some vpon special occasion employment or designation as extraordinarily they may and doe vndertake Now to come home to your loose laxe affirmation Your expresse words in our Bible are not so expresse as to speake to your purpose that of Zachar. 1. 9. 10. runneth thus O Lord of hosts how long wilt thou net haue mercy vpon Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iuda against which thou hast had indignation these 70 yeeres For it followeth not because this one Angell prayed for Ierusalem in Captiuity any Angel doth pray for any or euery man This was extraordinary your supposall must bee ordinary This was occasionall for his employment your Angels must not bee so allotted Happely this was their Angell-Guardian Michael Prince of the Synagogue Pleade thus for Angell-keepers none will gayn-say you They pray for vs no question at all This was in a peculiar case for restoring Ierusalem and Iuda according to promise in appointed time 70 yeeres designed by the Prophets So the question was idle like your selfe Whether this were not a Prayer The question well ordred should haue beene Whether All Angels at all times doe not in particular pray for euery particular man as this Angell heere did for Sion To the former wee answere positiuely Yea to the second negatiuely No. Nor can this instance euict that Tobie 12. 12. Raphael telleth Tobias thus When thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter-in-law I did bring the remembrance of your praiers before the Holy One. First what an Addle-head are you that trump in the Protestants way with this Testimony which your Masters can tell you for happely your ignorance knoweth not so much they esteem of no otherwise than a Talmudicall Tale Secondly how can you accord this Tale with your owne Tenents Raphael both speaketh heer as their Angell-keeper and carrieth himself so in that whole negotiation Raphael was of the highest Hierarchy next to Michael and Gabriel in your account Your selues teach that Angels of that Hierarchie are not Custodes nor imploied vnto men but all imployed ordinarily are of the inferiour and lowest rank Riddle me riddle mee what is this You told vs of one that could vntie knots let him vntie this or cut it in pieces for it troubleth vs not a little That Angell Reuel 8. 4. from whose hands the smoke of incense ascended which is expressed to haue been the prayers of Saints who was he can you tell mee whether the Angell of the Couenant Christ Iesus himself or Michael the Protector of the Church do you knowe or some other Angell are you assured Was his imployment ordinary or extraordinary can any tell Mysticall you may be sure this Passage is and can you draw Arguments from such Testimonies Your great vnderstanding doth happely think Yea the common resolution is for Nay But howsoeuer the praiers of all Saints that is of the Church were offred to God in the hands of an Angell their Mediator therefore All Angels pray for all men or some Angels for some men ordinarily I deny the necessity of this doctrine When you say more you shall heare further but much more I beleeue you cannot for you fail of your wonted Cue See more and See Fathers that affirm it neither Scripture nor Fathers heer In Conclusion from whence drew you forth this imputation that The holy Angels pray not for vs For Bellarmine your Polstar and Cynosura in point of Controuersie doth confesse It is not denied that Sancti and so Angell orant pro nobis saltem in genere secundum Scriptur as And those that assent as most doo aâ— the
meaning our dreaming We beleeue confesse of Holy Angels They can will haue doe help vs ordinarily extraordinarily toties quoties they are employed as the mighty Executioners of the Almighties will for his seruants against his foes And yet see the pouerty of this fellowes vndertakings He is to prooue that Angels can help vs. His first proofe is Daniel 10. 13. Michael one of the chiefe Princes came to help mee I question not the meaning of that Text. I yeeld it But I maruaile this fellowe can set it downe Angels help vs and come in with this proofe which should bee expresse and therefore name Angels where Princes not Angels are remembred and so remembred as sensu primo they may bee taken for some temporall Potentate some of the Satrapaes of the King of Persia But the Prince of the Kingdome of Persia withstood mee twenty daies but lo Michael one of the chief Princes came to help mee and I remained there by the Kings of Persia are these words expresse for Angels helping They are I grant for their help but farre from expresse which are so mysticall That of Acts 12. in Saint Peter's case is indeed expresse and nothing can be more plaine for proofe then that place which representeth a performance of that delegation Hee hath giuen his Angels charge concerning thee a thing neuer questioned denied doubted dreamed of by any Protestant that I know To proue himselfe an honest man it were good this accuser would name the man But somewhat there is in it though he cannot tell what We deny to addresse our selues in time of need vnto Angels for mediation or intercession and we doe deny it because we hold it needlesse vnnecessary as no part of our duty as vnbehoouefull to no purpose because we are perswaded that ordinarily in euery exigent at all times no Angel not attendant without remoue can take notice of vs vnderstand our state instantly pitty vs in misery and so relieue vs. This is not for any inualidity of power nor for auersnes of will If they know it they are willing if willing they are sufficient The want proceedeth not from them it is from disability in ourselues to acquaint them ordinarily with our states which needs wee must doe if wee will looke that they should help vs. This is that which this fellow should pitch vpon but then he were gon and not able to say bough to a Goose now hee hath somwhat to say at least and make a shew amongst the Gaggle though it be with a loud lye that They cannot help vs as we say And yet we haue a shew of Fathers and are sent to see first Iustin Martyr Apol. 2. and no more C. W. B. This mans founder hath these words The host of the good Angels we worship and adore Which if it were so is not concerning any thing that hath beene said touching Angels by this Gaggler hitherto But C. W. B. had it from Bellarmine and he followed I know not what translation The Text of Iustin Martyr page 137 of Robert Steuens edit in Greeke is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We confesse saith that Father that we are Atheists in regard of any worship that wee giue vnto those esteemed Gods but not so in respect of the true God him and his Sonne that came from him and hath taught both vs these things and also the Host of good Angels that are different from the other bad that followed him and were likened vnto him as also the Spirit of propheticall predictions we worship and adore honouring them in verity and in truth This is the Text of Iustin meant by this man word for word related in his owne language as he did write and expressed thereout punctually And now Sir what aduantage from Iustin Martyr What haue your Proselytes seen in him Your Translator Perionius mistook his Author and Bellarmine was glad to make aduantage of it and your Instructer took it as he found it As for your selfe I think you are innocent of all Otherwise then so it cannot bee taken For though wee should yeeld it Angels are to bee worshipped yet not with diuine worship your selues confesse with such as is due vnto God alone But if any worship bee giuen them heer it is point par point that which is due to God See what it is to blunder so This was for worshipping of Angels S. Ambrose succedeth in his Book de Viduis for praying vnto Angels So the man flits to and fro Angels are to be beseeched who are deputed our Guardians therfore not all Angels but onely Guardians And is this to purpose Angels pray for vs or We may pray to them indefinitely But I let the rest alone I haue answered else-where these and other places and whatsoeuer other beside these haue hitherto come to my knowledge from our opposites in the point of inuocation XXVII That no Saint deceased hath afterward appeared to any vpon earth I Doo not belieue you that you can name any Protestant that wil defend this That no Saint deceased hath appeared after death Your word is no Gospell It is a Catholique Trick now-a-daies to cog and lie to cast any aspersion vpon Protestants If you haue met with some such it had been well you had named vs the men Your luck and experience hath been better than mine I neuer yet met with any such Deniers Perhaps in your ranging vp and downe you haue met with some ignorant simple people that hearing your talk of Apparitions thought you coniured and not knowing the meaning of the word would not beleeue you vpon any hand and as your custom is you publish it for the doctrine of the Protestants that No man euer appeared no not extraordinarily after death But to purpose We may conceiue your meaning two waies eyther as in common course of kinde or else vpon extraordinary course Apparitions haue been and may be but as works of wonder dispensations of the right hand of the most High Apparitions are not ordinary nor of common dispensation And infinite impostures iuggling tricks and collusions haue beene obtruded at all times vpon the world especially within the last 500 yeeres by coozening cheating knaues vnder vaile and couert of Apparitions principally to delude poore superstitious people with that opinion of Purgatory to make merchandize of the pardons But why not as probable that some Saints haue appeared from Heauen as some Popes haue come from Hell Both at Gods good pleasure extraordinarily who doth all things as hee will in Heauen and Earth What if The soules of the Righteous be in the hands of God are his hands so shortned that no where but in Heauen they can bee in his hands God may send them no doubt extraordinarily No cessation of pain is to the one no impairing of happinesse vnto the other they carry their heauen and hell about with them wheresoeuer they be So that in no diuersity of opinion we might well passe-by your Texts to
no purpose And indeed to no purpose for Mat. 17. 3. we read There appeared vnto them Moses and Elias talking with them which apply to your Thesis No Saint deceased hath appeared vnto any and aduise how handsomely it agreeth thereto For doo you not knowe or haue you heard of it that Moses by some Authors is reputed not dead as by Hillary Can. 20. vpon Mathew by Saint Ambrose in his second Book of Cain Abel but translated by God into Paradise as Helias was afterward asserted of late by no Babies of your owne Ioh. Arboreus lib. 11. Theosophias and Ambrose Catharine vpon Gen. 3 If that bee so you may go seek a new Text to prooue apparitions of dead men by It will be answered These were not dead For if Moses be liuing Elias is sure you hold him yet aliue and why not both aliue seeing both must come and oppose against Antichrist and bee slaine by him before Dooms-day Mend your conclusion and make it thus Therefore Saints haue appeared to some on earth and I will warrant no man will quarrell your assertion But your second Text of Mat. 27. 52. cometh home to your minde They were Saints indeed deceased but restored to life and peraduenture vnto eternall life in bodies as well as soules They appeared vnto many the Text is plain and I beleeue you neuer met with any such that when you shewed this Text would deny their appearing which is expresse And yet it is not well applied by you for your apparitions as I conceiue it inform me if I doo mis-take you are not in bodyes restored to life or raised vp out of the dust but in bodies assumed or some other way These men appeared in their owne bodies which were laid into and rose vp out of the graues and so not very fitting your purpose As for Onias the high Priest who beeing dead appeared vnto Iudas Macchabeus let him iustifie it that hath written it If he report the story as it was very good it may be done I see nothing to the contrary if not true no great hurt at all your puling-whining soules in Purgatory get nothing by the bargaine That some Saints deceased haue appeared For these were in Heauen of which there is constat for their appearing at least prooue you they were in Purgatory to which your apparitions tend But the truth is there are many Schoens Parasangs betwixt those wōdrous works of God and those iuggling tricks in the Romane Church deuised onely to make the Priests pot to seethe and fill the Popes purse by collusion XXVIII That the Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth SPeake out and speak plaine What mean you by what passeth All things that are done on earth in al places at al times by all persons ordinarily of themselues or som saints som things in som places at some times by some persons extraordinarily by reuelation or some such like meanes No Protestant will deny the one no Papist hath hitherto dared affirme the other Dare you abide by it if you doe take vp the bucklers and see what will follow Your generall position will beare eyther interpretation Wee affirme that all Saints departed knowe something on Earth as namely The beeing of a Church That some Saints departed knowe something heere done extraordinarily by reuelation intimation or otherwise As your position is captiously put downe so is your first proofe from the Text of Luke 16. 29. Sophistically affixed There Abraham knew that there were Moses and the Prophets bookes in earth which hee himselfe had neuer seene Indeed Abraham was dead long before Moses wrote And after Moses wrote till the time that Abraham answered thus if it were an History and not a Parable were many mo hundred yeeres In all which time no Protestant will deny but Abraham might know when he was in Paradise that God had left such bookes vnto Israel Now this is not ad idem nor prooueth the question For your position is what passeth not what hath passed your proofe is for what hath passed and not for what passeth A maine difference betwixt these two I cannot tell what you intend to write next but I can tell you haue plaid the Goose in your Gag and hereafter when your worthy work putteth forth head to view I shall bee able to say what Animal it is Abrahā knew som 2000 yeers after his death Put the case so that Moses the Prophets were in the hands of the Iewes and directors of them in their course vnto God therefore Abraham knew what Rabbi Gamaliel taught Saint Paul such a day in his Auditory Is this a good consequence now in your Logick A coozener a cobler might reason so Yet this is your reason cap apee I answer directly First Abraham's case is not euery mans Secondly Abraham's knowledge might bee extraordinary our Quaere is of ordinary knowledge Thirdly Abraham might know in long tract of time which he could not so at an instant and wee make question of present knowledge for that is required vnto your purpose onely That which S. Augustine witnesseth we deny not that which we deny hee witnesseth not Hee witnesseth there that Abraham knew of Moses He telleth not how he came to know of Moses nor what Abraham or Moses can know touching vs. In the next as much ridiculous Iohn 5. 45 our Sauiour there telleth the Iewes thus Do not think that I will accuse you to my Father There is one that accuseth you euen Moses in whom you trust Vpon citing this Text it may seem the man was som what conscious that it was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it should bee expresse that the Thesis was of knowing what is done vpon earth the proofe of accusing vnto God in heauen Therefore to help it we haue an argument a consequence inferred vpon that Antecedent thus How could Moses dead 2000 yeeres before accuse those that were liuing if the Saints deceased knowe not what passeth in the earth If so then take heed that Moses accuse not you for a fool as very an one as euer went without the priuiledge of a bable who so childishly imagine that God set in iudgement the Iewes were arraigned euery mothers sonne And Moses did as the diuell with Iob came and accused them euery one in particular of euery crime committed for so it must be Doubtlesse Moses had worke enough to doe especially in those last worst tumultuous times You should haue let vs knowne who was of their Councell who their Aduocate against Moses and whether it came to a demurrer or not But good man Wiseacres learne of your Masters to take things aright By Moses is not vnderstood his person then in Paradise dead or aliue but Moses writings the Law of Moses that in which the Iewes did so much trust So it is not personall it is instrumentall his writings accuse you and will condemne you So Caietan Maldonate and who not or if personall Moses himselfe
why then thus they take it It is his office it will be performed by him at the Resurrection and day of Doome Moses then will stand vp and accuse you Any way take it it cannot conclude that Saints in Heauen do knowe by any ordinary course what passeth continually vpon earth What Saints are said to know and what not how many waies to what purposes and ends I could let the Reader see and gagge vp this gabbler for euer but I haue don it already elsewhere in that point to which this tendeth of Inuocation of which notwithstanding I must say som what heere for it followeth next in order XXIX That they pray not for vs. WEE say not so You either mistake vs or bely vs. The Saints pray for vs all in generall all Saints for vs or euery Saint for vs that is for the Church militant on earth You shall finde if you enquire that the Caluinists themselues as you call them or Puritans hold this I adde The Saints pray for vs in particular some particular Saint for some particular man in some speciall cause some time And to come more particularly to it The Question is not whether Saints departed doe pray vnto God that is confessed on both sides all Saints doe by prayer intercession supplication as well as thanksgiuing It is confessed they pray for others and for themselues too by all but this addle-pate who prates he knoweth not what and measureth other mens senses by his owne senslesnesse It is euident they doe Apocal. 6. 10. How long O Lord holy and true doest thou not iudge and auenge our bloud on them that dwell vpon the earth The fellow neuer heard that the soules of the Righteous pray for their consummation in glory such an infant is hee in these speculations which are so common Again it is not denied they pray for vs in regard of that Communion of Saints whereof this holy performance is a principall and main part for vs in generall out of fellow-feeling and commiseration of our miseries which themselues haue tasted in this valley of tears for their friends in particular whom they remember whose state they recommend vnto God in praier they hauing lost no endowment in their Soule in Glory which did accrue vnto them vpon Earth And as for Loue and Charity vnto their brethren which makes them so forward to do them good that is exceedingly enlarged there Monica Saint Augustine's Mother for instance departing this life before her Sonne I make no doubt being seateâ— in those Heauenly Palaces might and did remember her sonne on earth recommend his estate vnto our blessed Sauiour pray for him in generall his good Constancy Perseuerance and Confirmation in the course of his Christian Profession and Priestly Function and not onely so but might remember him in some particular occasions occurrences and actions with which in her life-time she was acquainted And yet Saint Augustine had nor could haue any warranâ— at all to pray vnto her for her remembrance of him or assistance in things that fell out afterwards after her death because there was not nor yet could bee any ordinary course certain whereby hee might acquaint her with his particulars after her death which is all in all for inuocation To come home to the point It should not be put as heer it is that they pray for vs for without question they doo and it is confessed by all Protestants that they doo pray for vs in generall all without limitation in particular in some cases But it should haue been specified when for what by what meanes and how they doo and doo not pray for vs but of these and such like necessary Inferences as these this Dreamer thought not or else would take no notice So hard a thing is it to knowe or set down the state of a Controuersie right so vnwilling at least men are to come to tearms of commerce and some agreement who minde nothing but faction and disturbance This being premised we proceed to see how contrary the Doctrine of the Protestants is vnto their owne Bible Apoc. 5. 8. our Bibles read thus The 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb hauing euery one of them Harps and golden Vials full of Odors which are the Praiers of Saints Heer 24 Elders are represented but in a vision Then who told this Smatterer in diuinity who they were It is exprest that these Odors were the Prayers of Saints but is it expressed who they were that presented them or what Prayers or what Saints The Praiers of Saints on Earth But then except a man be a Saint on Earth Intercession vnto Mediation of Saints in Heauen will doo him no good at all Presented by Saints in Heauen but Quo warranto For not because this vision was in Heauen represented therefore the Action and Actors intended were also heauenly and the thing represented no where done but there Such obscure Prophesies not yet vnderstood that you can say by any are neuer assumed for Proofs in point of Controuersie but of men that vphold a desperate forlorn cause for want of cleerer Proofs For the Text Irenaeus inclineth to take it of those Prayers which the Church of GOD offreth vpon Earth lib. 4. cap. 33 Quoniam ergo Nomen Filij proprium Patris est in Deo omnipotenti per Iesum Christum offert Ecclesia bene ait secundum vtraque in omni loco incensum offertur Nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohannes in Apocalypsi Orationes ait esse Sanctorum which is again repeated by that mvsticall Diuine Apocal. 8. And the smoke of the incense which are the Prayers of Saints went vp from the hand of the Angell before God No more is collected or can bee from these Texts but this that Prayer is compared to Incense according vnto that in the Psalm Let their Praier bee set forth in thy sight like incense and let the lifting-vp of their hands bee as the euening sacrifice But concluded it cannot be from these mysticall Visions that these Saints prayed vnto that Angell that the 24 Elders represented the Angels that those Praiers were addressed from men vpon Earth that the Vision expressed a thing ordinary and done that any man of discretion or vnderstanding in Diuinity or common reason would haue gone in hand to haue prooued a thing controuerted and obscure by that which is much more obscure as this Fellow doth In Macchab. 2. 15. 14. thus we read This is a louer of the Brethren who prayeth much for the people and for the holy City to wit Ieremias the Prophet and from thence the conclusion is Therefore they pray for vs. To weet you should haue added the Prophets or the Iewes Indeed in a Dream worthy no doubt to be beleeued verse 11. For so Iudas dreamed and you beleeue it and draw vs a Conclusion from your Dream thus Therefore they Ieremy and Onias if you will pray for vs In a Dream too So the Doctrine
be feared at your own weapoÌ„s euen vpon your most aduantage Let it be Turn vnto some of the Saints yet haue you no more but opinion and the opinion you most follow of new birth hatched first by Aquinas as may bee collected For as for Saint Augustines expounding it as Catholiques do I will let the Reader see and then judge One of your owne saith Pineda on the place Some take it spoken ironically and so it is for your purpose is it not By which is meant nothing lesse Alij seriò others take it spoken in good earnest but not therefore as aduising Inuocation Call saith Caietan vnto some of the dead let him be a man that hath liued most vnblameably put him to defend thy cause Assuredly not any will make answer because they are not their soules hauing diâ—d together with the bodies Cardinall Luther's great Antagonist was so farre from imagining any custome of Inuocation in the time of Iob which Bellarmine likewise denieth that he supposeth Eliphas to haue been an Atheist and to deny the soules immortality and what be commeth of your custome of Inuocation in his opinion in the time of Iob Eugubinus by Saints vnderstandeth holy men aliue and by Call not Inuocation but Allocution or naming of them And with him accord Philippus Presbyter and Polychronius as it may be collected by your owne Pineda Others by Saints mean holy Angels but present imployed to bee spoken to as apparitions were then frequent among those holy men either Leiger or extraordinarily imployed Angels Lyra runs another course not to the Persons but Precedents of Saints Reuolue the remembrance of Ages past as if Eliphas has said so and go consider the liues actions of holy men thou shalt finde them discussed exceedingly all but not impatient in affliction any of them In such diuersity of opinions and greater than this to conclude for Inuocation assertiuely none can none will but men like your self quiâ—us anima prosale S. Thomas alone must ouersway all because as Pineda confesseth he was the first that applied it to Inuocation Tandem sapienter D. Thomas sententiam hanc ad inuocationem pertinere voluit After all other Expositors saith Pineda he would haue it belong to inuocation of Saints Therefore put vp your Pipes for Saint Augustine singing that Catholique Song S. Augustine's words are these Indignatio quâ quisque angitur tanquam iniquè sibi aliquid acciderit dum non cogitat vsque adeò se immundum esse coram Dâ—â— vt innocanti Angeli non respondeant aut se demonstrare dignati sint qui enim hoc 〈◊〉 cogiâ—at stultus est irâ irrationabili interimitur Aut idcirco Angelos non audire non videre potest stultus quia ir â interemptus à zelo occisus Indignation saith he expounding the second verse which vexeth a man as if he were hardly dealt withall whilst he doth not remember that in Gods fight he is so vnclean that the Angels vouchsafe not to appear vnto him or giue him any answer when he calleth for them He that thinketh not so is a fool and killed of wrath Or thus A fool cannot heare or see the Angels because anger and wrath haue euen slain him Thus Saint Augustine in those Annotations bringeth a double exposition of those words in both according to the Septuagints reading whom hee followeth by Saints he vnderstandeth not men departed and with God as the Catholiques since Thomas doo interpret it but Angels of Paradise Secondly hee is not for calling vpon them for how could he if he held Bellarmine's Rule for Sancte Abraham but vnto them How As familiarly conuersing with them in those daies as often appearing and talking with them his very words either Guardians or otherwise Let it bee so now Saint Peter Saint Paul appear conuerse with demonstrate themselues to vs for my part I will speak to them to remember my necessities or cause to God as I would to your self or any other Christian for your Praiers or the Churches Thus what get you by Saint Augustine or your owne Bible I list see no more I haue seen enough already the vtmost I am sure that you can say and what I haue seen I haue satisfied already both in Scriptures and Fathers elsewhere These very places you haue named and many others I will not as you vse is actum agere onely this for your better direction or information in this point of Iouocation or rather Intercession through Allocution we do not we dare not pray to Saints that is speak to them or intreat them to pray for vs not for vnlawfulnesse of the act so much as for vnaptnes of the Agent for we are not perswaded nor can it be proued vnto vs by any Romish Catholick liuing that the Saints departed and now with God doo or can ordinarily by any power or ability in themselues hear see knowe take notice of the wants state cases or praiers of men on earth to be mindefull of them vnto God in heauen Nor can it bee prooued that otherwise God doth ordinarily reueal vnto them by any means those former specified that so they may take notice of them This must be prooued or it is in vain to pray to them vnlesse a man will hazard his state and all vpon vncertainties It sufficeth not that they knowe some things at some times in some places of some men extraordinarily for so wee are vncertain what Saints knowe what how much when by what means and so may well be blamed of folly for going about when wee may go direct vnto them when we may go to God Saue all other labour in this point prooue but onely this Their knowledge of any thing ordinarily I promise you straight I will say Holy Saint Mary pray for me till then you must pardon vs Protestants for not playing the fools with you XXXI That the bones or Reliques of Saints are not to bee kept No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead YOu may keepe if you will and lock vp if you please in your Cabinet or Calket or where you will Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Loiolaes hayre which cured if I remember Michael Vasques of I know not what or that goodly Relique which at Denham once in Sir George Peckhams house courst the diuell vp and downe from Anne Smiths foot ouer all her body the Priest following Him with his hand vp and downe wheresoeuer the Spirit went And further take Saint Lipsius old breeches to shrine them in and the vertue that did or might drop from them our Lady of Sichem will perhaps lend them to so holy and deuout a purpose I know no Protestant will steale them from you But ad Textum as Marcellinus vseth to say your Texts of Scripture I meane As all the rest so this also is contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles This say I but what Why two things are prooued or should be First that Reliques may
Augustine of your owne And doo you mark it that I say your owne for this Saint Augustine is none of mine It is ser 29. in which this passage is not 39 as you mis-report it which is a Counterfet vnder S. Austen's name as the Louanists and other your owne men obserue There is a Commemoration of Saint Peter ' s chain you keep an Holi-day in memory thereof Augusti 1 and yet Saint Peter ' s Chain as Baronius obserueth was not found vntill Saint Augustine was dead Had the man been as he would seem Saint Augustine yet might hee haue been deceiued in his collection as wel as in somewhat else noted by Lorinus that hither tendeth For de Catechis rudib 23. he deliuereth that The shadow of Saint Peter passing along in the streets restored a dead man to life Do you finde this written in your Bibles I suppose not S. Augustine did without doubt in his or how is it that he saith it Therfore the Papists Bible hath left something out aswell as the Protestants Look vnto it and answer it as you can Acts 19. 11 12. And God wrought speciall miracles by the hands of Paul so that from his body were brought vnto the sick handkerchiefs and aprons and the diseases departed from them and the euill spirits went out of them Therfore what Vertue proceeded from Saint Paul when he was dead I deny that for Saint Paul was then aliue and aliues like Therefore this is for the liuing not the dead And yet take mee not so that I deny the thing Vertue may proceed from the true Saints of God dead and aliue I deny your proof and wonder at your wit that can go ab equis ad asinâ—s so easily as if both were fit Inmates for such an Animal as your self Asse Horse you for such prouender S. Chrysostome might very well inferre vpon the passages of Saint Peter and Saint Paul that Christ their Lord and Master was truely God whose seruants in his Name and by his Power nay their shadows and napkins did such wonders for Could any man do so except God were with him But all this winde shakes no corn First this vertue was not inherent onely incident Secondly it was miraculous so peculiar Thirdly it was Then those Times are done those napkins gone into Materia prima Shew such napkins or shadows and wee yeeld For no man doubteth what hath been done or may be done we go no further than to what is See more you so direct vs and wee had need or else we shall see your proofs by halues for hitherto wee haue onely heard of vertue proceeding from the Dead nothing touching keeping of Bones and Reliques Now haue at them or else neuer and indeed neuer for Ioseph's bones were carried by Moses out of Egypt What then Therefore bones of holy men may by warrant of that be digged vp shrined and preserued Happely they may in some cases but not therefore for this was a singular Fact which are no precedents for generall rules One Swallow maketh not Summer nor one Woodcock Winter but among Birds of that Bill and Feather Secondly as it was singular in Fact so speciall in Reason There was a Tie vpon Israel to doo that which they did Ioseph dying had bound them with an oath to do so Had our Lady so bound you for her smock or her milk you were excused Thirdly they carried them thence not to keep them which is your Tenet much less to shrine them or adore them which is your practice but to bury them in the Land of Canaan which they did Ios 24. 32. Doo you in like sort and wee applaud you with your Reliques So we see in this first place no more than wee looked for nothing to purpose nor in the second 2. Reg. 4. 8. Eliseus taketh vp Elias cloak that fell from him and wrapping it together smote the waters of Iordane which parted asunder A Text seeming to say somewhat for Elias cloak is Relictum a Relique to Eliseus and he took it But this is verse 14. not 8. but not yet a Relick for our purpose For what he did with it is not remembred it is like enough Eliseus wore it out We read not what he did with it whether he laid it vp and left it to posterity to be adored vnless you can prooue this you say nothing otherwise in your sense it is no Relique For keeping and adoring is all in all for them But let it be kept Eliseus did no more than I or any Protestant else should haue done For you mistake vs. The Reliques of Saints are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with vs we dishonour not their garments much lesse their bodies hauing beene the Temples of the holy Ghost beeing againe to bee raised from the dust and be made like Christs glorious body By and in them at sundry times God hath miraculously magnified himselfe in his Power as when the body of Babylas made the Oracle mute in despight of Iulian that Renegado Then especially when there was great cause when Paganisme Persecution Opposition swayed for the manifestation of that Truth which in them by them had beene propagated Shew any such Relique and see what wee say vnto it It is naturall for any man to affect the remembrance or memorials of a friend to admire and make much of rare things not euery day seene Bring mee then a piece of the Crosse of our Sauiour one of the Nailes or some such memoriall of his Passion shew mee Moses Râ—d Saint Peter's Sword I will prize them aboue all the Iewels I can haue Will this content you I know no Protestant will doe lesse then so Worship them I dare not Shew them as you doe I would not as men do monsters in Fleet-street or Sturbridge Faire in this you abuse them too profanely making merchandize of the Word of God In that you profane them to Idolatry misleading the People to adore them This did not Antiquity nor doe wee In the Primitiue Church Memoriae Martyrum were in great esteem The place where they suffred or else where they were buried Heere commonly their Church-meetings were for diuine Seruice for receiuing the Sacraments with commemoration of their Passion and a collation to follow their noble Acts which was seconded with this opinion that those blessed Soules themselues by speciall grace and dispensation of God took notice of that generall Act of the whole Church and accompanied their deuotions with their own best assistance vnto the Maiesty of Heauen But times are changed mens manners altred Those Saints Reliques Memories and Oratories of the true Saints of God gon no where to be found coozening colluding fraud impiety come in place The miracles memories reliques of Saints in your Romane Church are all of them knowne to bee iuggling tricks of deceiuing knaues and if Saint Martin were aliue againe hee might finde out onely one mans Reliques but many thousands to bee the bones of theirs that died at the
descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the soules of the Fathers AProposition of two feet neither relying vpon either The soules of the Fathers might not bee thence deliuered though Christ descended into hell and Christ might very well go down into hell and yet not deliuer any Fathers thence as finding some other work there to doo and hauing other causes of his descent finding no Fathers to deliuer For the former part of this Position that Hee went not into hell with what face what fore-head can this Fellow shew wee teach it when in our Creed wee professe that He went down into hell and haue publiquely defended it against opposition Nay wee more beleeue it than the Church of Rome doth and are more punctuall in it than are they They quarter out hell into foure Regions Hell of the Damned Purgatory Limbus Infantium and Limbus Patrum This diuision without warrant of holy Writ be it granted them into which of these Quarters into all or into some did the soule of our Sauiour separate from his body descend Say they Into the hell of the Fathers onely really into the other parts virtually or by effects Thus Thomas and who dare deny him Thus the Current of their Schools This is their Tenent and no otherwise Wee professe and beleeue that Christ went into hell that is that the humane soule of our Sauiour in the Interim of separation from the body did essentially and really go downe into hell the place of the Damned and of the Diuels not alone into Limbus of the Fathers which was not there not to suffer any thing there at all for all suffrings ended vpon the Crosse In the Land of darknes and shadow of death began the first step of his exaltation that free among the Dead he walked where he would not being consined to any place that he took reall possession of a part of his Kingdome and presented his person vnto those his vassals hauing beaten his enemy in his chiefest hold chased him out of the castle of his strength triumphed ouer him in himself and preached confusion vnto his foes that would not entertain his mercy in time of life nor partake of grace offred them vnto repentance This is our belief concerning his descent into hell if not orthodox antient and receiued let this wrangler shew where how and we will yeeld vnto better discretion from Antiquity It is idlely supposed that the descent granted we must needs inferre withall a Limbus Patrum or deliuerance of the Fathers out of hell there being alledged not contrary to Scriptures nor Analogy of faith not inferring impiety impossibility improbability absurdity or contradiction so many true good and catholick reasons of our Sauiours descent thither beside this The Fathers he meaneth are the Patriarchs and Prophets and righteous men that liued and died before Christ came in the flesh that expected the Promises and beleeued in hope but enioyed not the fulnesse which we doo since Being dead they are considered two waies in regard of state in respect of place For place the Scripture runneth in generall tearms In the hands of God In Abraham's Bosom With their people and such like thus affirmatiuely determining no certaine place negatiuely resoluing they were not there whereas now they are in the highest heauens and glorious where the Body of Christ resideth exalted aboue all Powers and Principalities For He first entred into the most holy place by his owne bloud They without vs were not to bee perfect standing the first Tabernacle the holiest of all was not yet opened The way was new which he prepared for vs. The gates to be opened were eternall gates neuer opened since they were gates but gates and eternall shut gates together Therefore wee professe with holy Saint Ambrose euery day in our Liturgie When thou hadst ouercome the sharpnes of death thou didst open the Kingdome of Heauen to all Beleeuers This we acknowledge is the receiued opinion of the fathers and for ought I knowe of Protestant Diuines not a few Though they were not in heauen in regard of place yet were they in happinesse in respect of state The soules of the Righteous said he before Christ came are in the hands of God and no kinde of torments shall once touch them This is also the consented doctrine of Antiquity If no kinde of torment then not losse nor paine then not in hell for I neuer heard of hell without all manner pain So it followeth not in opinion of the Antients the soules of the Faithfull were not in heauen aboue properly therefore they were in hell properly Gods hands in which they were are not so shortned his Kingdome is not so narrowed but that hee might well haue moe places than one Receptacles Repositories Resting-places for the righteous where hee would dispose them enow could we be content Curiosity will not stay heer but proceed to enquire Where were they then In what place of the world was their abiding I answer I cannot resolue that for the Scripture hath not determined it Nescire velle quae Magister maximus docere non vult erudita est inscitia It is learned nescience Not to knowe what our grand instructer will not teach It is enough to knowe they are in better case now than they were then With Christ they entred into his Rest Euer they were in the hands of God though not euer in like distance or proportion with God So what need we wrangle about the place if the matter bee agreed touching state See how contrary to our owne Bibles Ephes. 4. 8. out of Psal 68. 18. When he ascended vp on high he led Captiuity captiue and gaue gifts vnto men Christ in his Ascent led Captiues along The Question is Who these Captines were No Sir the question should first of all bee What this Ascent was You take it of his Resurrection It plainly is referred vnto his Triumph into the heauens in his Ascension both in the Prophet and Apostle and by all Interpreters but your self But to follow you in your follies Be it as you would haue it of his Resurrection must these freed Captiues needs be the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Yes no nay no other possibility For they were not the soules of the Saued nor the Diuels therefore the soules of the Fathers Sir can you finde no mo but these Diuels or Saued Iustin Martyr could and he is ancient pag. 57. edit Rob. Steph. with him in his opinion and I think hee was in his right wits We are those Captiues that since the Ascension of our Sauiour by the preaching of the Gospell of peace are captiued vnto truth being freed and deliuered from error Irenaeus in his wits too I suppose goes not far from this meaning for hauing remembred the Text whcih he referreth to the Passion hee inferreth thus Dominus per passionem mortem destruxit soluit errorem corruptionemque exterminauit ignorantiam destruxit Tertullian was
in that sort as our Masters tender it vnto vs to bee beleeued at this day XLII That there is no Purgatorie fire or other prison wherein sinnes may bee satisfied for after this life NOt resolued of by Antiquity out of Scripture nor determined by Scripture olde or new as certaine and necessarily to be beleeued You say Yes therefore we contrary the expresse words of our owne Bibles 1. Cor. 3. 13. The fire shall try euery mans work of what sort it is Is this so expresse in your opinion Sir Gagger It seemeth not for neither haue wee your Therefore c. for the conclusion nor your ordinary expresse words but barely thus Contrary to their owne Bible Your conscience checked you or did Bellarmine stumble you or what is the cause you faint in your Euidence Bellarmine confesseth it is one of the hardest places in Scripture And such are not expresse Directors or Concluders therefore no good proofes in points of faith without euident conspiring of some more perspicuous place For points of faith must haue manifest assurance to proue obscurity by more obscurity your Logick can tell you if you haue not forgot it is a fault Wee doubt and make a question vnto you of Purgatory Your Euidence for it is from that of which wee more doubt at leastwise as much as wee doe of Purgatory For beside the confession of the Master of controuersies and the diuers senses and expositions by him confessed and produced the latest I think I am sure one of the learnedst of your owne expositors Estius both confesseth as much and resolueth against your intent for Purgatory out of this place The Fire saith hee which the Apostle in this discourse hath named three seuerall distinct times is variously expounded by diuers men Augustine and Gregory vnderstand it of the afflictions of this life as in the 65. Psal We haue passed through fire and water Others take it for Hell fire Some for Purgatory Some for the fire of Conflagration which shall eyther proceed or accompany Christ the Iudge at the day of Doome Others imagine a threefold fire answerable vnto fire thrice named by the Apostle The first that fire of Conflagration The second the fire of Gods seuere Iudgement The third of Purgatory an absurd interpretation saith your owne Estius the fire is the same in all places saith hee That fire is eyther that of Conflagration or Gods seuere Iudgement or both according to the opinion of Caiâ—tan no Protestant in his owne opinion rather that of Conflagration which shall set the world on fire at the last which hath a threefold effect vpon three different sorts of men for probation vpon the throughly cleane for Purgation vpon the yet defiled for reuenge vpon the cast-awayes vngodly For which exposition hee citeth Basil in three seuerall places Hilary in second Canon vpon Mathew Ambrose Lactantius Eucherius and others but in no case your Purgatory fire because Purgatory receiueth men after Iudgement particular and is vtterly amolished before the generall Iudgement finished Secondly because Purgatory trieth no mans worke but punisheth the euill works of such as shall bee saued If such men your owne bee not resolued for it nay resolued against it would you haue vs instantly professe a Purgatory because you say Saint Paul meant so and cannot prooue it Prooue it you can out of Saint Ambrose Ser. 20. in Psal 118. Bellarm. saith that Idem habet on the place of S. Paul in his Commentaries and Estius Ser. 3. vpon the same 118. Psal Which testimony hee alleadgeth for against the Conceit of Purgatory extracted hence so that if these testimonies are all one Ignis Conflagrationis is intended at the end of the world to beginne not the fire of Purgatory which is to bee consummated at the worlds end Post consummationem saeculi are Saint Ambrose words missis Angelis qui segregent bonos et malos hoc futurum est Baptisma quando per caminum ignis Iniquitas exuretur vt in regno Dei fulgeant iusti sicut Sol in regno Patris sui et si aliquis vt Petrus sit vt Iohannes baptizatur hoc igni This is a purging fire as well as a proouing and consuming fire as your Estius hath well obserued In which sense Saint Ambrose speaketh vt per ignem purgatus fiat saluus So you bely Saint Ambrose for explicating this very place of Purgatory in your sense Secondly you prooue it out of Hierome vpon the fourth of Amos 11. You were as a firebrand plucked forth of the burning where what Hierome hath for Purgatory I would willingly vnderstand of your Gagger-ship for I professe my disability to conceiue Hierome compareth that place of the Prophet with the other of Saint Paul and onely compareth it no more Hierome doth not determine Fire in eyther place to be your Purgatory fire all that can bee collected is That by fire Saint Hierome meant the seuere Iustice of God Cùm subuer si fuerint ob similitudinem criminum Sodomae et Gomorrhae pessimaque in ijs aedificia diuinus ignis exusserit ipsi liberentur quasi torris raptus de incendio Et quomodo Lot Sodomâ pereunte seruatus est amittens substantiam et partem corporis sui quam intelligimus vxorem sic omnes isti Sodomorum diuitias amittentes euadunt nudi iuxta illud quod in Apostolo legimus Si cuius opus arserit c. Si ergo saluatur per ignem quasitorris de incendio rapitur If there bee no fire but that in Purgatory I confesse this fire must bee that of Purgatory but if there bee many fires beside this of your Imagination it is rather any fire then that of Purgatory For I neuer yet heard that an Heretick dying an Heretick may haue his Heresie purged in Purgatory and so leauing that there as a snake her slough himselfe may stie vp to Heauen but without all controuersie out of that fire in Saint Hierome Hereticks be saued into Heauen Postquam in eo opera arserint in antiquum restituatur locum See the place Reader and tell mee thy opinion of this Gagger Saint Augustine cannot possibly vnderstand this place of your fire of Purgatory except hee will and doe contradict him For by your owne confessions Saint Augustine conceiued it of the Tribulations of this life therefore not of Purgatory after this life The words you meane in Saint Augustine vpon 37. Psal are It is said Hee shall bee saued yet as it were by fire And because it is said Hee shall bee saued therefore that fire is not regarded No maruell and yet that fire is more vnsufferable then any torment which a man can possibly vndergoe in this life Heere no doubt the game is vp for Saint Augustine Fire after this life and yet not eternall therefore of Purgatory no question Yes Sir a question Indeed no question what Saint Augustine meant For first he calleth it plainly Emendatorium ignem fire that correcteth men and