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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14461	The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe; Disputations chrestiennes. English	Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571.; Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564.; Brooke, John, d. 1582.	1579 (1579)	STC 24776; ESTC S119193	490,810	627

enter into the matter I bring in the persons who take their theame and matter vpon a fermon which they heard of an holy father entreating of such matters And although the matter might seeme wholy to be fayned yet it hath the foundacion vppon a true history For mine intent is partly in this first disputacion to rebuke the sottish and vayne curiositie of foolish Preachers and Doctors who haue forsaken the principal points of the holy Scripture to occupy thēselues vpō vnprofitable questions vayne contemplations to enquire of things that they cannot know and which wee haue not to doe withall And which serue to none other ende but to hinder and let the poore Christian people to seeke out the will of God to induce and lead them to false religion supersticion Idolatay and all Paganisme Also I declare the Arguments of the Popes Purgatorie with the Purgatorie of the Panims and the ceremonies and supersticions which they vse about the dead out of what spring they issued and what haue bene the purgations of the Panims which the Idolatrous Christians do yet keepe and how the Papisticall Purgatory hath serued the insatiable auarice of those which doe lyue to destroy and deuoure all the poore world Also how the priests Purgatorie is burned how fire hath taken the same and what punishment is prepared for those which go vnto strange fire to be purged from their sinnes any other then the fire of lesus Christ and how the priests do disagree both from the word of God and from their owne doctrine decrees and cannōs After those things we shal enter into the secōd part which shall entreat of the appearing of the spirites of those that be dead All these things shal be yet more playnly vnderstoode and better confirmed by the Dialogues following of the which the last shal be of the immortalitie of the soules and the resurrection of the flesh Afterwardes we will come vnto the lyuing and in the other parts wee shall enter into matters yet more graue more necessary and of greater importance for the present time to shew what is the estate of the world of relygion and by what meanes that man which feareth God and the poore troubled and doubtfull consciences may be assured and know what is the true Church the truth and wherevnto they may surely stay themselues and how they may be certeine what doctrine is of god I haue intituled this first Dialogue the Alchymee of Purgatory chiefely for two causes The first bicause I declare how the auncient Panims and our priests after their example doe trauayle to extract the fifte essence of the soules which they melt in their furnaces of Purgatory The other is bicause from those furnaces our priests do drawe out the Philosophicall stone ¶ For to enter then into the matter Hillary beginneth asking his companions of the Sermon which they heard ¶ THE FIRST DIALOGVE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatorie The Speakers Hillarius Eusebius Theophilus Thomas HIllarius If mine eyes haue not deceiued mée I thinke I saw you all thrée to day at the Sermon wherefore I desire to know your opinions how the same pleased you and what you thinke of the Preacher Eusebius As far as I can iudge I thinke that he is very skilfull and cloquent for he hath spoken very learnedly and deepely of matters so obscure and profounde Hillarius He could not speake more profoundly For he hath pearced euen vnto y very centre of the earth therfore I am the more abashed that he spake so cléerly of matters so obscure and of these darke places no man euer saw ought For the Sunne neuer shineth there Theophilus As far as I could perceiue by him I thinke that eyther he hath not bene in those places of which he spake or els if he were it is long agoe If the opinion of Isydore be true we shall haue very small occasion to giue credite to this ghostly father and to his preachinge Eusebius Hath Isydore ben of an other opinion then the rest of the Christian Doctors touching this matter Theophilus There is none among the Christians which doubteth that there is an hell seeing that the holy Scripture rendereth so sure and vndoubtefull a testimony with the which we ought to content our selues not willyng to know any further then it hath reuealed it vnto vs It ought to suffice vs which Iesus Christ witnesseth vnto vs that there is an hell of eternall vnquenchable fire where the worme dieth not but wher ther is euerlasting horrour weeping gua hing of teeth we need not to enquire of the place for I thinke ther is none which desireth to go thether And therfore we haue néede to praye vnto GOD that it woulde please him to giue vs his grace to know his will and to be able to accomplish it thorow his sonne Iesus Christ to the ende we may auoide that hell fire and extreme darkenesse We néede not much to stay to know in what place hell is whether it is in the centre of y earth according to the common opinion of the Doctors of Plato which saith y it is in the depth of the earth or whether it is vnder the earth in the country of the Antipodes according to the opinion of Isydore who sayth that after the day of iudgement the Sunne and the Moone shall kéepe themselues so stedfaste in heauen that they shall no more tourne round about the earth but giue their lyght and brightnesse onely in that part of the world in y which we dwell and that the damned shal be all sent away vnder the earth into those horrible darkenesse and into those places in the which at this day some men doe thinke that the Antipodes doe dwell Hillarius If it were so that the Sunne and the Moone doth nowe shine there wée maye thinke that some one of the countrye of the Antipodes is come from thence who hath declared and described to our Preacher the scituacion of hell of Lymbo patrum and of Purgatory with al their confines in such sort and manner as he hath expounded them vnto vs. Thomas You may saye what you will and I will beléeue what pleaseth mée but I cannot thinke that he was euer there or that hée hath euer heard any one speake that came from thence hath so well visited all the places theroff For neuer in my lyfe I hearde it better deuised There is neyther hall chamber nor closet cole-panne kitchin nor seller chimney nor pot-hangers great caudron nor lyttle caudron chaynes nor flesh-hookes and other insernall vtensills but that he hath described and set them foorth so lyuely as mée thinketh I sée the thinges before mine eyes in such sort that yet I am afrayde when I thinke on them The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very dilygent and curious for to expresse declare in their instruments and writings the situacion lymtis of houses and possessions of which they make writings off But

god But bicause that that holy asshes was done in the daye of the feast of the Goddesse Pales and that I haue yet to speake of otter Goddesses here before mencioned let vs returne vnto the feast of Candlemas and afterwardes let vs fall againe to the asshes after that I shal haue a little followed certeine other conformities the whiche I haue alreadye some thinge beganne I haue alreadye touched howe you doe attrybute the same tytles vnto the Uirgyn Mary whiche the Idolaters haue giuen vnto Iuno Diana Ceres and Proserpina whom they haue called some of them Quéenes of Heauen the others Ladies without a tayle Shee called hir selfe the handemayde and seruaunt of the Lorde and you doe call hir our Lady as though there were in Heauen Lordes and Ladyes as there is in the Earth and a King and a Quéene as there is a Sunne and a Moone Theophilus The Scripture admitteth but one king of the worlde immortal and inuisible and onely wise vnto whome onelye belongeth all honour and glorye and in whose thigh is written King of Kings and Lorde of Lordes Uppon whiche also wée haue the witnesse of the Apostle saying Although that there bée many Gods manye Lordes in the worlde to witte after the reputation of the Idolaters yet neuertheles vnto vs there is but one God and one Lord. Hillarius Afterwards you doe make the same honour vnto the Uirgyn Mary which the Romaines dyd vnto the Harlot Flora whome they haue made a Goddesse and canonised hir bicause that shée made them heyres of hir goodes whiche shée hadde gayned by whoredome And afterwardes for to couer and hyde their honoure haue called hir Chloris and haue giuen vnto hir power to make the Earth to fructifie and increase Doe yée not greate honoure vnto that holye Uirgyn to giue vnto hir Flora that abhominable bawde and harlot for a compaignion or to put hir in hir place And the tyme agréeth well to the feaste For the Florales and the feaste of Candlemas of Flora were dedycated vnto all lycenciousenesse shamelesse playes vpllaynies and dissolutions the whiche the false Christians doe practise all that time whiche is betweene the Kinges and Shroftyde afterwardes they beginne agayne at Caster and doe contynue vntyll the moneth of Maye and almoste all the yeare But chiefely at the feasts of Caster in May after their lamentations of Lent. Furthermore the Panims do hold Proserpina Hecate for the Goddesse and Quéene of hell and do light vnto hir Torches and candels and doe beséech hir for the dead to the ende shée be fauourable as well for hir owne parte as towardes hir husband Pluto And you do ye muche lesse of the Uirgin Mary you doe call hir Quéene of heauen And you do make hir Quéene of hell and of the dead as the Poets doe of Hecate whom they do also take for Proserpina and Diana vnto whom they do attribute great power in heauen and in hell as it appeareth by that that Virgill saith To cast in sacred fire redemption chiefe of deedes amisse And on Diana cals in heauen and hell that mightie is Also in like manner you would make of Iesus Christ a Pluto or at the least the difference is not great And if you wil deny it I wil haue no more to proue it but your prose sequence of the dead which is in good tyme but yet neuerthelesse without reason beginning in Latin Lugentibus in Purgatorio The which for to make it the better to soūd in thine eares friend Eusebius the better to follow the stile of the Fatists which haue made it I wil revearse it vnto thée in verse word for worde the best I can and if thou doe not finde the ryme so good as it is in Latine be assured that there is more ryme and better then there is of reason For I do not thinke that one can finde greater blasphemy against God and the Uirgyn Mary If I do not translate it word for worde I will yet at the least rehearse the sentence faithfully Giue eare then and I will poure it forth 1 To all them that doe dwel in Purgatory paine Where firy furies fel and sorrowes they sustaine And torments doe endure voide of solation Come shew them some ●ecure by thy compassion O Mary 2 Thou art the well alone which washest sinnes away Thou hydest euery one and none thou doest denay Extend thy hand toward these soules and succorr shew Which thus without regard lye languishing in woe O Mary 3 The dampned spirites to thee so pitious do asplie Desiring for to bee deliuered foom the fire That by thee they may bee erepted for their paine And may in ioyes with thee for euermore remaine O Mary 4 Of Dauid only kay which heauen openest wyde These wretches helpe streight way which dolors do abide Let them deliuered be from dongeon and durance Where they do linked lye in sorrow and greuance O Mary 5 A rule art thou full right to them that thee assye A liuely lampe of light to them that trust in thee Incontinent go pray for these soules in distresse Thy sonne that he streight way their dolour will relesse O Mary 6 O Virgin thus we do vpon thee cry and call These soules so tangled to deliuer out of thrall And pardoning their misdeed also wee thee request That thou wilt be their guyde to euerlasting rest O Mary Do ye not behold a goodly Letanie may not Iesus Christ now rest For the Scripture attributeth vnto him nothing which is not here altogether attributed vnto the creature Wherefore I will haue none other proposition for to proue that that profe contayneth the greatest blasphemye which may be vppon the earth but only that eyther the same that I do say is true or els that the holy Scripture is false and Iesus Christe is no more Iesus Christe the dore the key and he which holdeth it which openeth and sutteth the way the trueth and the life by whom onely wée haue accesse vnto the father or onely hope the resurrection and remission of sinnes or only aduocate patron and mediator the which titles and many other like the Scripture attributeth vnto him onelye and not vnto the creature whatsoeuer it bée eyther in heauen or in the earth Wilt thou now deny but you doe make of the Uirgin Mary a Proserping and of the other side a Ceres whom in like manner you doe honor by putting on of white apparel and with fastings superstitious abstinences euen as Ouid hath written of Ceres saying The Goddesse Ceres best doth like the garment made of white And for hir vse in garment blacke shee no thing doth delite Behold as touching the apparell Giue eare also to that which he speaketh of the superstitious fastings Their feasting lasted all the day till time of night drew neare And then they streight to supper went when starres in skye appeare

rest except that sometimes those lyttle varlets and lockesmithes doe picke the locke and the dore of the great loksmith and great treasurer he knowing nothing thereoff and that he be not therewithall content although that vnder his name and title they streth foorth their power as séemeth good vnto them and doe forge keyes bulles and pardons as many as they lyst and alwaies at the costs of the poore people Now the great lockesmith hath no lymit but that he hath alwaies reasonable cause for to giue buls and pardons as many as one woulde so that money doe come or otherwise he will suffer the poore soules to be rosted and tormented in Purgatory as long as the world shall continue for want of one leafe of paper or parchment with a lyttle waxe and leade As concerning the others which haue the daies limitted that they may giue pardons I haue a certeine doubt the which I would that I were resolued of it by thée Eusebius For sith that the one hath power to giue two or thrée thousand an other two or thrée hundreth an other an hundreth fiftie fortie thirtie or twentie either more or lesse I would gladly know of thée what horologes clocks what quadrans they haue in purgary for to measure those dayes there For sith that there is no sun moone nor stars what daies what yeres can they haue For the time is taken of the morning of the heauen of the course of the sunne But those which are in purgatory haue nothing of al this Wherfore I cannot comprehend what yeres what months dayes houres they can haue whether they be very long or short As far as I can imagine by an exāple which Antonius Florentin reciteth in his sum the daies ought ther to be meruailous lōg For he saith that an Angell caryed thether a soule of a man to whome hée promised that it shoulde tary there but an houre And as soone as that Angell did come agayne to see that soule it did begin to crye out vpon him and to call him lyer deceiuer and traytor Thomas To what purpose Hillarius It sayd vnto him Thou hast promised me that I should be but an houre and I haue bene heere already more then an hundreth yeres But the Angel aunswered vnto him There wanteth a great many my friende For thou hast not yet taryed a quarter of an houre Wherefore I doe conclude that it must needes be that the dayes and yeares be there very long sith that a quarter of an houre is there compared to a hundreth or thousande yeares of ours or els that the fire is there meruaylous hotte and that the time continueth long to the poore soules Eusebius I will tell thée as touching the pardons it hath bene long time sithence that many people doe know that there is in them great abuses Wherefore I will not much breake my braynes to maynteine them Theophilus I doe also iudge it lost time to speake of such abuse if I did not sée that sithence the time of Gregory so many people to haue bene abused that so many great Doctors which are most estéemed amongst the Sophisters and Schoolemen haue written of it and haue confirmed it so assuredly Hillarius I know that thou doest beginne already Eusebius to agree with vs I beléeue that thou art of this opinion that the Pope ought to let the dead rest without reigning ouer them sith that they haue more power ouer the Pope then the Pope ouer them as I will proue it by an example taken from the Autentike booke which is intituled the conformities of Saint Fraunces For I haue neuer read that the Pope hath raysed to lyfe any dead person and that he came to aunswere before him of all those whom he hath cyted condempned absolued or excommunicated But that booke doth witnesse manifestly that Fryer Walter a Cordelier and Bishop of Poytiers hath caused to be cyted after his death by a Cedule Pope Clement the firt for to appeare before the eternall Iudge bicause that he had vniustly deposed him from his office Thomas And did the Pope appeare there by vertue of that Cytacion Hillarius If the booke lye not that was no iest For at the verye same daye which was prescribed vnto him the Pope dyed of a sodeyne death and departed sodeinely for to goe and aunswere there What sayest thou by this Eusebius If this history be false it is a great dishonor for the Cardeliers who do make great accompt of that booke and doe holde it to be very pretious among them as a relicke and reuelation And for the Pope also which hath confirmed the order of saint Fraunces and of the foure Mendicants I know not what good meanes we may héere finde for to maynteine that buylding and the honour and authoritie both of the one and of the other For sith that the Pope hath confirmed the order of Saint Fraunces the order of saint Fraunces is buylded and staied vppon the Pope wherefore when the Pope shall fall which is the stone and foundation of that Church and of that buylding also shall fall the buylding the order and the rule of the Mendicants Now we cannot deny but that example doth ruinate ouerthrow the Pope all his power I do not dispute whether that the history be true or false For I beléeue that is as true as it is true that the Pope is God saint Fraunces conformable agréeing to Iesus Christ as that booke ful of blasphemies enforceth it selfe to proue it But I consider onely that sith that the Cordeliers haue written such an history do maynteine it by their bookes that they doe abate asmuch the authoritie and power of the Pope as the Pope doth confirme their rule and order For how can this witnesse agrée with this proposition The Pope cannot erre And with the exposition which Eccius and his lyke doe make of those words Thou arte Peter and vppon that rocke I will buylde my congregation and the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it If the Pope be that rocke or stone and that stone is fallen it must néedes be that all the Popish church doe fall with it and the orders of the foure Mendicants which are his foure Euangelysts and his principall pillers And so by that meanes the Cordeliers whome the Pope hath made doe vnmake the Pope which hath made them and the creature vnmaketh his creator and the creator his creatures Theophilus It chaunced to them as to the Madianits which destroyed themselues the one the other with their owne weapons when they heard the sound of the trompets and pitchers of the army of Gedeon and saw the lyght of his torches So in lyke manner sith that Iesus Christ our true Gedeon hath put the trompets of his gospell into the handes of his lyttle army the which by vertue of his holy spirite he maketh to sounde euen vnto the endes of the