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A88101 A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations. Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1658 (1658) Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182 106,562 123

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shall arise in the male Sex and n Ib. q. 8. ar 2. whether the haires and nailes shall rise up with the body with many others of like sort which I passe over because I would leave roome for others of another kind which manifest the Papists to be the greatest doters upon impertinent and unprofitable questions and the boldest determiners of doubtfull things that are This appeareth not onely by their disputes and questions such as I have observed already but by their resolution of many doubts as they pretend by divine revelation which may best be delivered by way of question and answer as in form of a Catechisme divers of which are set down in two such Papists books as usually supplied matter to their Priests for Sermons to the people of which the one is the big book of the lives of the Saints called by themselves the Golden Legend though by by those who have read it with indifferency the lying legend made by Jacobus de Voragine as he is ordinarily termed but as c Posse Apparat Sacr. vol. 1. p. 794. Possevine corrects the name Iacob de Varagine Archbishop of Geneva his book was printed at Venice ann 1575. The other book is a book of selected Sermons printed by Iames Kavinell for the use of simple Priests who want cunning to preach So in the title of the book the time and place of the first publication of it I find not noted This premised I will begin the questions out of their former book of lies with the author of lies the Devil Quest. 1. What is the proper likenesse of the Devil d Leg. aur fol. 244. p. 1. col 2. He is like an Ethiopian more black then thunder his face sharpe his beard long his haires hanging unto his feet his eyes flaming as hot as fire casting out sparkles of fire and out of his mouth come flames of sulphur his hands bound with chaines of fire behind his back Quest 2. When the Devil had tempted Adam and Eve or Adam by Eve to eat the forbidden fruit what penance did they undergoe after they had yielded to the Devil and were expelled out of Paradise e Thebook of selected Sermons printed by James Kavinell Dominic Sep. mages fol. 8. p. 1. col 2. Ans For many yeares before their death they stood either of them in water a night up to the chin far from one another till their flesh was as green as grasse But we must make a long leap into the new Testament else we shall stay too long and make our questions too many Quest 3. Why was Peter bidden to put up his sword when he drew it in our Saviours defence f Menot Serm. fol. 47. col 4. Because he had nor cunning enough to use it for he cut off Malchus his care when he should have cut off his head Quest 4. How many thornes were in the Crown that was set upon the head of Christ g Apol. for Herodot l. 1. c. 35. p. 274. out of Bonaventure Lyra Maylard Just a thousand Quest 5. How many wounds had the body of our Saviour in the whole Ans h pa. 14. of the office of the Virgin printed at Paris ann 1524. Five thousand four hundred and sixty Quest 6. What were the theeves names that were cruicified with Christ Ans i Leg. aur fol. 16. p. 1. col 2. Dysmas the name of him that was saved and Gesmas the name of him that was damned Quest 7. Why was Dysmas saved rather then Gesmas Ans k A Franciscan of Bourdeaux Apol. for Herodot l. 1. c. 33. p. 260. Because he would not suffer his fellowes to rob Christ when he fled into Egypt Quest 8. How know you that S. Thomas Becket whose salvation hath been l See Speeds Chron. l. 9. c. 6. p. 510. col 2. 43. called in question even among our own ca. because of his contumacy against his King was saved Ans A m Leg. aur fol. 180. p. 2. col 1. young man died and raised by miracle said there was in heaven a void seat and asking whose it was answer was made that it was kept for a great Bishop of England named Thomas of Canturbury n Symbolum dedit coenavit Ter. Andr. Act. 1. Sen. 1. Durand Rational l. 4. c. 25. fol. 133. p. 1. Erasm Catechism Symboli Apostolor c. set out with pictures to every Article at the beginning of the book Quest 9. How was the Creed called the Apostles Creed composed by the twelve Apostles Ans As a shot made up by guests each paying his share for Article 1 was laid down by Saint 1 Peter Article 2 was laid down by Saint 2 Andrew Article 3 was laid down by Saint 3 Iames the Son of Zebede Article 4 was laid down by Saint 4 Iohn Article 5 was laid down by Saint 5 Philip. Article 6 was laid down by Saint 6 Bartholemew Article 7 was laid down by Saint 7 Thomas Article 8 was laid down by Saint 8 Matthew Article 9 was laid down by Saint 9 Iames the son of Alpheus Article 10 was laid down by Saint 10 Simon Article 11 was laid down by Saint 11 Thaddeus Article 12 was laid down by Saint 12 Matthias Quest 10. What shall be the condition of the world the last fifteen dayes before the day of Judgement Ans p See Leg. aur on the advent of our Lord. fol. 2. p. 2. col 2. and compare it with the selected Sermons out of it published by James Kavinell fol. 2. p. 2. col 2. c. In whose book the dayes are thus numbred and the number thus precisely reckoned as precedent immediately before the day of judgement The first of the fifteen dayes the water shall rise upon the Sea and it shall be higher then any hill by forty cubites 2. The second day the Sea shall fall down so low that unneath the earth may be seen 3. The third day the great fishes as Whales and others shall appear above the water and shall cry unto Heaven and God onely shall understand their cry 4. The fourth day the Sea and waters shall brenne 5. The fifth day all trees and herbes shall sweat bloud and all manner of fowles shall come together and neither eat nor drink for dread of the doome that is coming 6. The sixth day all great buildings Castles Towers Steeples and Houses shall fall down and brenne till the Sun rise again 7. The seventh day all Stones and Rocks shall beat together that each shall break other with an horrible noise the which shall be heard into Heaven 8. The eight day the Earth shall quake so that there may no man stand thereon but shall fall down 9. The ninth day the people shall go out of their dens and go as they were mindlesse and none speak to other 10. The tenth day Hills and Earth shall be made even and plain 11. The eleventh day all graves and tombes shall open and the
bodies shall stand upon them 12. The twelfth day Stars shall fall from Heaven and shall spread out raies of fire on this day it is said that all the beasts shall come to the field howling and shall not eat nor drink 13. The thirteenth day all living shall die to the end that they shall rise with the dead bodies 14. The fourteenth day the Heaven and the Earth shall brenne 15. The fifteenth day shall be a new Heaven and a new Earth and all things and all dead men shall arise I had not been so serious nor insisted so long in discoverie of the foolish and unlearned questions such as the Apostle reproveth 2 Tim. 2.23 of the Papists both polemicall Schoolmen and Legendary Preachers and their ridiculous vanity in resolving many curious and superfluous doubts by revelation but that I have many of that deceived sort in my parish though I thank God some fewer then I found when I came thither and I hope to make them yet sewer if God please to give me time to effect what I have in desire and design which is to manifest that the ruling Romanists are the subtillest Masters of the subtillest Mystery of iniquity in the world and their seduced disciples especially the illiterate the most foolish people in the world from whom they keep the Scripture and so keep them in blind ignorance that like hooded hawks they may carry them whither they please for which wrong they would seem to make them some recompence by setting images before them which are commonly called Lay-mens books though they can reach them none other lesson then that a Christian should not learn viz. falshood vanity and errours Jer. 10.14 15. and by pretended revelations which are either meer forgeries of their audacious Doctors or meer fallacies of the great deceiver mentioned by St. Iohn Rev. 12.9 who makes them doters about questions and strife of words 1 Tim. 6.4 and puffeth them up to an affectation of forbidden knowledge as he did our first parents Gen. 3. and their disciples receivers of any foolish fancie which they suggest unto them But my principall aim in what I have hitherto said in this Chapter is to curb those men of corrupt minds who are too prone to perverse disputings such as the Apostle reproveth 1 Tim. 6.5 and since by their disputings questioning and resolving aiming to be wise above that is written 1 Cor. 4.6 they have bewrayed their egregious folly to the world we may tauntingly take up the question of the Apostle 1 Cor. 1.20 and put it to them where is the wise where is the Scribe where is the disputer of the world hath not God made foolish the wisdome of this world he hath doubtesse and we may take the great School-man and Questionist Aquinas for instance whom though q Bellarm. de Eccles Script ad ann 165. p. 347. Bellarmine commend for his holinlesse and wisdome was neither so holy nor so wise as he should have been not so holy 1. Because he was so bold as to put to dispute so many undoubted principles of divinity as we have noted Secondly because he lacked humility without which there is no true holinesse which he might have learned of his Master Peter r Moderatior est Petrus Lombardus qui sententias alienas recitans non temerè de suo addit aut si quid timidè proponit Erasm in Epist ad Caron delectum Episc Panorum Epist l. 28. p. 1161. Lombard of whom Erasmus righly observeth that resiting the opinions or sentences of others he did not rashly adde any thing of his own and when he added any thing it was rather with fear then confidence Nor was he so wife as he should have been for as much as he wanted in humility so much he had in pride and as much pride so much folly for pride and folly as humility and wisedome are sorted together by the wife man Prov. 14. v. 3. c. 11. v. 2. And though he looked for credit by his bold inquiries and conclusions and had it of those of his own side yet such as were sound in the faith and not partiall in affection discovered and disdained his pride and so it was followed with shame as Solomon observeth Prov. 11.2 whereof we have a memorable passage betwixt Erasmus and Dr. Collet the godly and famous Deane of Pauls in K. H. the 8 his daies to whom when Erasmus had much commended Aquinas to heare his judgement of him and he gave him none answer he proposed and more vehemently pressed the praise of him the second time to which s Tanquam afflatus Spiritu quodam quid tu inquit mihi praedicas istum qui nisi habuisset multum arrogantiae non tanta temeritate tantoque supercilio definisset omnia nisi habuisset aliquid Spiritus mundani non ita totam Christi doctrinam sua prophanâ Philosophiâ contaminasset Erasm Epist ad Jodoc Jonae l. 15. p. 486. Collet as if he had been inspired with an answer from God presently replyed What meane you so to praise that man to me who if be had not had much arrogancy in him would not with such temerity and superciliousnesse have defined all things and if he had not had somewhat of the Spirit of the world he would not have so defiled the Doctrine of Christ with his profane Philosophy How worthy a man Dr. Colles was for learning and Godlinesse they that desire to know may find a short story of him in Mr. Fox his t Fox Martyr vol. 2. p. 54. 55. second volume of Acts and Monuments and in the fore-cited Epistle of Erasmus he was so much a Papist being levened with the corrupt Doctrine of the age wherein he lived that King Henry the 8. after a Sermon preached by him in his presence and long communication with him by occasion thereof dismissed him with these words Let every one have his Doctor as he liketh this shall be my Doctor and yet so much a Protestant both in his preaching and practise that as u Bish Lat. in his 7th Serm on the Lor. Prayer sol 174. p. 2. Bishop Latimer sald he should have been burned in K. H. the Eight his reigne if God had not inclined the Kings heart to the contrary CHAP. III. That disputations on matters of Religion are warrantable by Scripture and reason and not onely lawfull but sometimes also expedient and profitable THough for the undoubted duties of morality the Apostle prescribeth present and prompt obedience without murmurings or desputings and that in all things of that kind Phil. 2.14 yet for matter of faith and conscience he requireth no such facility either in affection or in fact but giveth leave and leisure or rather advise to Christians to bring both the Spirits and speeches of men to triall 1 Iohn 4.1 1 Thes 5.21 and when he requireth of Christian believers that they be ready alwaies to give an answer to every one that asketh a reason of the hope