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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87231	The Quakers quaking: or, the foundation of their deceit shaken, by scripture, reason, their own mouthes at several conferences. By all which will appear, that their quaking, ministery, doctrine, and lives, is a meer deceit, and themselves proved to be the great impostors of these latter times: / by Jeremiah Ives.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1656 (1656)	Wing I1103; Thomason E883_3; ESTC R207296	36,620	64

Because I have purged thee and thou wast not purged that is as if God had said I have done that which was sufficient for thy purgation And the like in Joh. 1.29 Christ is called The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world though he that believes not shall dye in his sins the meaning then must not be that every man hath his sins pardoned In like manner then when the same pen saith that as he taketh away the sins of the world ver 29. so he doth inlighten every one that comes into the world ver 9. which is as much as if he had said Jesus Christ by his blessed mediation hath done that which is able to effect pardon of sins for the world and which also is able to inlighten and inform the world into the knowledge of it How then doth this Text prove That every man hath this Light within him any more then the other Texts proves every mans sins were took away the latter of which themselves will not allow But further if every man hath received this Light Joh. 1. then every man hath received Christ for he is that Light ver 9. But every man hath not received Christ Ergo. The minor I prove from the 11 ver of the same Chapter He came to his own and his own received him not and the Builders were said to refuse him Matth. 21.42 and many other places But if they shall think to be relieved at this turn with this distinction viz. That it is one thing to have the Light and another thing to receive it Then I demand If this Light was not received how can it be in all men unless they are born with it Secondly whether men HAVE ANY THING but what they have RECEIVED according to I Cor. 4.7 especially any Light or Knowledge of Jesus Christ Lastly whether the Scriptures do make a distinction between a mans having the Spirit of Christ or the Light of Christ within him and his receiving Christ and receiving of the Spirit within him or in his heart as the Apostle phrases it Rom. 8. But to proceed Doth not the Scripture say John 11.10 That He that walks in the dark stumbles because there is NO LIGHT in him And Isa 8.20 If they speak not according to this rule it is because there is NO LIGHT in them and yet these say Every man in the world hath the Light within him spoken of John 1. which Light is Christ Thirdly In opposition to another of their Errours I shall prove That the day of Judgement is not past which I prove thus If the Heavens and the Earth are reserved to the Fire of that judgement-Judgement-day then is it not past already But the Heavens and the Earth are reserved to the fire of that day therefore that day is not past already The major is unquestionable For if they are yet kept from the fire of that day and are reserved to the fire of it then it followeth That none bath seen that day because the Heavens have not felt the heat of it The minor is proved out of 2 Pet. 3.7 Again if the day of the perdition of the ungodly be not past then the day of Judgement is not But the day of the perdition of the ungodly is not therefore the day of Judgement is not Again if in that day all must give account of the deeds done in the body and there are thousands and ten thousands that have not given an account then it follows that the day of Judgement is not past But there are thousands and ten thousands that have not given an account of the deeds done in the body therefore the day of Judgement is not past already Again if the day of Judgement be past already then the Resurrection is past already But the Resurrection is not past already Ergo. The major I prove from John 5.29 The minor I prove thus In the Resurrection they neither marry nor give in marriage But now men do both therefore they are not in the Resurrection Fourthly They say There is no Baptism but that of the Spirit In opposition to which I do affirm a Baptism with water which I prove from Mark 16.16 and Matth. 28.19 * Act 2.38 41. 8.3 6. 10.4 7. And that the baptism here commanded was water-baptism it appears by what I have already said by way of Reply to this notion Also the Scripture tells us Heb. 6. of the Doctrine of BAPTISMS And whereas it is objected That the Scripture tells us of one Lord and one Baptism I answer First this is not exclusive for there are Lords many yet he saith There is but one Lord Jesus So in like manner we reade of divers baptisms as of water and afflictions and the holy Ghost yet there is but one properly so call'd to wit That of water and the other are metaphorical baptisms Fifthly That the Lord Christ did administer bread and wine in token of his blood-shedding and bodybreaking which they deny This I prove from Mai. 26.27 28. where Christ did use both bread and wine upon that occasion and that the Apostles did so appears from 1 Cor. 11.23 where he saith That that which he received of the Lord he did deliver unto them how that Christ when he was betrayed took bread and ver 25. In like manner saith the Apostle he took the Cup when he had supped c. All which shew That bread and wine was instituted by Christ and practised by the Primitive Christians in remembrance of the dyings of the Lord Jesus Sixthly That civil honour and respect is due to some persons more then other which they deny First from the childe to the father as Exod. 20.12 Eph. 6.2 Secondly from the wise to the husband Eph. 5.33 and 1 Pet. 3.6 Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him LORD Thirdly this is due from servants to their Masters 1 Tim. 6.1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their Masters worthy of All honour c. Fourthly it is due from young solks to the aged Levit. 19.32 Thou shalt rise up before the boary head and honour the face of the old man and fear thy God or as Beza hath it Thou shalt honour the PERSON of the old man Fifthly this respect is due to persons in Authority as not onely the Apostle exhorts I Pat. 2.17 but as Paul himself practiseth as I have said when he calls Festw Most Noble and our Lord Christ notes the unjust Judge for one that did not reverence man Luke 18.2 and yet the Quakers make it a note of their infallible Ministery that they do not reverence men when Christ makes it a character of a wicked man This was urged by James Nayler at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate viz. That their not respecting persons was a sign they were immediately sent of God as I have already minded Again was not Jacob a faithful man and doth not the Scripture say that he called Esau LORD Gen. 32.18 Gen. 33.13

some in it But our Lord Christ though he did mighty work in Corazin and Bethsaida he saith they repented not Which very Argument of yours is so farre from proving you are sent of God immediately that it rather proves the contrary for who hath made more Proselytes then the Roman Priests and Monks have as for instance Austine the Monk who was sent to the Saxons by the Bishop of Rome converted 10000 in a few dayes See Speeds Chronicle pag. 291 Sect. 8. And who is there that is acquainted with the proceedings of the Spaniards in the West-Indies but can tell that thousands are daily reduced from Heathenism to sober and upright lives by the Roman Ministery and yet this drawing of multitudes is an Argument That Quakers are sent of God but must not be urged by others though they are able to say more at this turn then all the Quakers in England By this you may see that the Quakers are shaking and would gladly make every Straw a Staff to lean upon But lastly if it be as they say That very man hath a Light within him that would turn him if he do follow it to what purpose do they preach one to another So that they have no cause to impute the converting of men to their Ministery for they might convert without it The last Argument to which I said little then by reason I was interrupted with their Women-preachers was this viz. That it did appear they were immediately sent of God because they did not give respect to persons I answer first then All the Quakers both men and women are sent of God immediately to preach the Gospel for none of them give respect to persons But secondly is not this an abominable piece of wickedness for by the rule of contraries Paul was not sent of God for he did respect Festus and call'd him MOST NOBLE FESTUS Acts 24.3 and 26.25 Now all the people were not Most Noble for the Scripture saith Not many Noble are called by which it appears that some were more Noble then others and had that respect given to them that was not common to all But I shall say more to this anon My last answer to this Argument if I may so call it and James not judge me for a Lyer is That if their not sitting up and giving civil respect be an argument that these are sent of God then Austin the Monk was sent of God and many others that I could name but let me trouble you with the recital of one story concerning Austin the Monk and upon the reading of it you will think if James saith true that Austin was a man sent immediately of God Austin 561 yeares after Christ in the time of Ethelbert King of Kent was sent by Pope Gregory to convert the Saxons who some time after call a Synod unto which resorted seven British Bishops and other learned men saith Beda in this History Book 2. Chap. 2. These men now ready to go to the Synod came first to a certain holy wise man to ask his counsel which some think was bishop of York Whether they ought at Austins Preaching and Exhortation to leave their Traditions Austin being come a stranger among them The good man answered If he be a man of God follow him but said they how shall we know that He answered Christ saith he said That we should learn of him for he was humble and meek of heart If therefore saith this good man this Austin be milde and bumble it is like he is of God but if he be proud no proud man is of God Then the Bishops inquired how they might know that The man answereth Provide saith he that he and his company come first to the place of Meeting and if it be so that when you approach near him he arise and salute you then think him to be the Servant of Christ but if he do not vouchsafe to rise at your presence let him be despised They hereupon took the old mans counsel and when they came in Austin the Monk sate very still in his Chair and stirred not hereupon they judged him a proud man See Speeds Chron. pag. 291. I do urge this to shew That if this be an argument a man is sent of God immediately surely this man viz. Austin the Monk was so sent of God and so are all the Popes at this day that will not reverence any Monarch under Heaven so that these Arguments are so slender that if Christ and his Apostles had had no better they had never made any Proselytes to the Kingdom of Heaven to this day how greatly soever you brag of your Converts I now come to their next Error 4 Error and that is That every man hath a Light within that will teach a man to Worship God rightly This is so common a principle of theirs that to go about to prove it were but to hold a candle to the Sun therefore taking this for granted that they thus teach as I hope I may without wrong to them I shall now shew That this is false Doctrine and is taught to no other end I fear then to thrust out the Authority of the holy Scriptures 1. For first what need is there of Scripture to declare the Minde of God if it may be known without it every whit as well But now the Scripture saith that what was writ afore-time was writ for our Learning Rom. 15.4 and John 20.31 But these things were writ that you might believe 1 Cor. 10.11 These things were written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come 2. I demand Whether by the Light which is in the whole world or in every one that comes into it all men may come to know a Virgin had a Son without any other external means 3. I demand Whether the Light in every man without the Scriptures can bring every man to know Christ dyed and rose again in three dayes 4. I demand What favour it was to the people of Israel to have the written Law of God in such a manner as it is said of them He had not dealt so with any Nation if all Nations by the Light within them might have with the like facility understood to serve and worship God as well without them 5. Whether all men by the Light within them before the coming of Christ could ever have understood that he should be born in Bethlehem as it was written 6. Whether the Name of Jesus Christ may be knowne to all the World by the Light within them without Scripture or Traditions 7. I demand if the Light within can inform all men into the Divine Worship and Service of God without the Scriptures Whether it may not do it without your Books If so 8. Whether or no you that will not be prodigal of your Apparel and who will not lay out money upon needless things are not at this turn very prodigal to buy candles to light them to the Sun My meaning is to

question was a man or else he was not of age to understand that universals do include all particulars of their species and yet these are the men that witness perfection Let me tell thee Reader whoever thou art that these men are the saddest spectacles of Gods Spiritual Judgements that ever any Age hath heard of And surely if ever any people were given up to believe a lye these are the men for was it ever heard of that a man should profess to be immediately sent of God and to be infallibly guided by him and to have attained to perfection as these would have it and yet not know common sense What think ye if after Paul had told the Athenians Acts 17. that God did give to all life and breath if afterwards he should ask the Areopagite Whether God had given him life and breath Do you think he would ever have cleaved to Paul as the 34 Verse of the aforesaid Chapter doth declare he did and yet such are the injudicious mindes that many in our dayes are given up to that though an Angel from heaven should detect their vanity yet some would resolve to be vain A second instance of their inconsistency is That though they say the letter of the Scripture is carnal as appears by a Book of theirs call'd Sauls Errand to Damascus yet for the justifying of their conceited New-light they make use of the first of John and many other Texts in the letter though therein they stretch it beyond its line But further at another time they say That it is a sign of a dark minde to think the Scriptures should have another meaning * See a Book of theirs cal'd Truths Defence p. 1. And yet in the Book call'd Sauls Errand to Damascus they say The letter is carnal and yet for all this a little before in the same book they say He that raiseth Spirit out of it is a Conjurer as I have already mentioned upon another occasion What miserable confusion is here doth this look like perfection One while the letter is carnal and another while its conjury to raise Spirit out of it and another while its a sign of a dark minde to think the Scriptures should have another meaning and another while they will give other meanings to them then what is exprest in the letter A third instance of their inconsistency and by which all that I have said is justified is That though they say they own the Scriptures and will talk a few words sometimes in their behalf yet one of them said in a book call'd Truths Defence pag. 2. in answer to Parson Camelford of Stavely-Chappel That he might as well have condemned the Scriptures to the fire to be burned as his Quares that be sent unto him or that he might as well have said the sayings of Christ and his Apostles were absurd as to say those Quares were absurd they meaning his Quaeres being given forth by the same Spirit the Scriptures were A fourth instance of their inconsistency is That one William Tomlinson in a book of his call'd A word of Reproof p. 11. doth blame the Ministers for praying before or after Sermon and saith What did Christ or his Apostles fall short of what they ought to do and leave it to you to mend it And yet in other cases we must not follow Christ's and the Apostles example and yet he would bring them to disprove the lawfulness of praying before or after Sermon because they did not so But further he inveighs against the Ministers for so doing yet one of their own Merlins prayed after Sermon at the Bull and Mouth at Aldersgate before hundreds of people I pray judge if any thing of this look like perfection nay are not these things Strong symptomes of the greatest degrees of defection that can befal the sons of men Now I come to the next Errour 17 Error and that is They study and devise deceitful terms that look with two faces like the Oracles of the heathen Gods that they may the better effect their deceits as for instance one of them namely Farnworth being charged by Hen Haggar and Tho Pollard for saying Paul was not converted when be spake those words in the 7 to the Romans where be cries out of a Body of Death To this they answer in a printed book call'd Scriptures freed from Scandals pag. 12 13. That there is not such an Affirmative in the whole Book Now mark the charge is a Negative Proposition viz. That Paul was not converted when he spake those words in the 7 of the Romans concerning a Body of death they answer That there is not such an Affirmative in the whole Book Reader had these words fallen from the mouth of a man that were conscious of his imperfection Charity would have taught me to have over-look'd them but now I cannot for such a speech as this either argues the speaker to be imperfect and so discovers his deceit in saying he is perfect else if he be perfect as believe it who 's will how could such a thing fall from his pen and on the other hand if he understood what he writ then it follows that he writ that to rescue himself from the force of the charge that so simple people that know not a Negative from an Affirmative might think he was not guilty of such a charge by his saying There is not such an Affirmative in the whole Book But Oh the impudence of these men that dare to say That one might as well burn the Scriptures as their Papers when if the Scriptures had let fall Negatives in stead of Affirmatives and Affirmatives in stead of Negatives how could they have been for our learning upon whom the ends of the world are come I dare challenge all men in the world either Quaker Atheist or Anti-Scripturalist to shew me such a piece of Non-sense from any of the Pen-men of old who were inspired by the holy Spirit Who will believe that these mens tongues and pens are infallible Oracles that know not I from No and that put Nay in stead of Yea for is it not the same he is charged for saying Paul was not converted and he saith There is no such Affirmative in his whole Book but then it seems there is such a negative and if so then how dare they call those honest servants of Christ lyers viz. H Haggar and Tho Pollard By this you may see that these are the greatest Seducers that these latter Times have produced and the Lord grant that these things that I do bring to thy minde concerning them may be as warnings to you that stand to take heed left you fall and you that know God delight to glorifie him left he give you over to a reprobate minde to do the things that are not covenient Take heed there fore and be warned of turning the truth of God into a lye as these men have done left God in his Justice give you up to believe

14 15. And Luke calls Theophilus Luk. 1.3 Most Noble Theophilus And Christ himself bids his Disciples Not to covet the uppermost rooms at feasts lest a MORE HONORABLE person come in and then they be bid sit lower Luke 14.8 By all this you may see that though we must not respect persons in Judgement or do any thing for a rich man because he is rich without respect had to the equity of the cause or give flattering Titles to men to whom it is not due as to call one Master and say I am his Servant when I owe him no service yet this doth not hinder but a man may and ought to acknowledge himself a Servant when he is really and truly so And though it be flattery to give Titles that are not due yet it is a duty to give them where and when they are due Seventhly they are not Infallible as they pretend This I prove because if one propose a question to one of them he shall give one answer propose the same to another he shall give another answer quite contrary to the former and so if you shall go on to a fourth or fifth not one of five nay I dare say not one of ten shall give the same answer with the first and yet sometimes these men do make the harmony that is among them an argument that they are infallible when no Trumpet that sounds forth any thing of Religion to the world gives a more uncertain sound then theirs And truly I know nothing wherein they were ever so well agreed as they were office at their Meetings in Kent wherein they all agreed to meet together many times and said nothings Truly if this dumb spirit had alwayes been among them it had been happy for many thousand souls in this Nation who are now miserably deluded with their fair words Eighthly I shall further prove in opposition to another Errour of theirs That Christ had and yet hath another Body besides his Church And my first Argument is this viz. If Christ had a Body that was broken for his Church then he had a Body besides the Church But he had a Body that was broken for his Church Ergo. The major is unquestionable or else Christ gave the Church to be broken for the Church if he had no Body besides the Church which is absurd The minor is proved from Matth. 26.26 Luke 22.19 where Christ saith of his Body that it was broken for them By this you may see these men either cannot or will not distinguish between the Body of Christ which is glorified in the Heavens and the Church of Christ which is his Mystical Body upon Earth and who if they continue faithful shall have their vile bodies made like unto his glorious body according to that of the Apostle Phil. 3.21 Thus Reader thou hast an account of a sew of those many vain Errours that are profest by this generation of men who go up and down to subvert whole houses and congregations and to pervert the right and straight wayes of the Lord. But I hope the Lord will put a stop to these mens careers that they may proceed no further that their folly may be made manifest unto all that every one may take heed that he be not led away wit the errour of the wicked and fall from his own stedfastness I shall now proceed to shew the Reader that these conceits though they are newly risen among us yet they were such wherewith the Churches of Christ have been pester'd even in the Primitive Times and that not onely in the dayes of the Apostles but in the Ages following wherein men did rise up and say They were sent of God and afterwards grew into such Blasphemous Opinions as these men are now fallen into some saying They are the Eternal Judges of the World others saying The Day of Judgement is past Others saying They have Divine Revelations others saying They are Christs and That they are the Way the Truth and the Life c. And that these men do agree with most of the Hereticks both Ancient and Modern I shall mention some few among the rest As first they have affinity with Hymeneus and Philetus who said That the Resurrection was past already 1 Tim. 2.18 in that they as I have already shewn say The Day of Judgement is past already Secondly they have affinity with the Gnostici which said They knew all things See Epiphan Haeres 26. So say these men and thereupon one of them namely Farnworth being asked If he knew what two men spake one to another being apart from them he answered That though he did know yet he was not bound to answer the question because saith he it is an unbeliever that asketh it Again they agree with the fore-cited Hereticks inasmuch as they taught That Christ did not take flesh really but in a figure so say these for one of them being asked this question answers That Christ was but a figure See Sauls Errand to Damascus pag. 54. Thirdly they have affinity with the Manichees whose Ring-leader Manes call'd himself The Comforter and said He was Christ Euseb lib. 7. cap. 30. So do some of their Teachers saying They are the Way Truth and Life Fourthly they have affinity with the great Heretick Seleucus who denied the Humanity of Christ to be in Heaven and Water-baptism He lived in the time of Theodosius Magnus See August lib. de Haeres Both which Errours are maintained by the Quakers though they are repugnant to holy Scriptures Fifthly they have affinity with the Papists in the great Master-veins of Popery As 1. the Papists do introduce all their vain conceits by this Maxime That the Church cannot Erre and from thence it is that the Quakers do usher in all their Dreams viz. That they are perfect and cannot erre 2. The Papists do make the writings of their General Councels of equal Authority with holy Scripture So do the Quakers make their pernicious Pamphlets And at this they exceed the Papists for the Papist will not say That none of their Priests have erred neither will they say That the Writings of any particular man except the Pope is Infallible but these Quakers say That their Writings are of equal Authority with hely Scriptures although they are the private conceptions of either particular men or womens brains 3. They agree with the Papist Priests in that they would make the outside of their conversations an argument to demonstrate the truth of their Apostolical sending In like manner as I have formerly said James Nayler and Boroughs and divers others of their false Apostles being asked How they could prove they were sent of God answered That their lives did make it manifest because they denied themselves in point of Apparel c. By this it appears that the Quakers are compounded with most of the grossest Errours that the Church of old were incumbred withall Sixthly and lastly they do in many of their fore-mentioned Errours agree with their lorefathers