received it of men 5. All Subjects that live say you Hetrodox within a Kings dominions are not his lawfull Subjects immediately by Gods holy ordinance but all christians are immediately the Popes vassals Now you know and no man better that Correllatives are simul natura in a condition of relation by their proper nature the one to the other If therfore the secular and laic Prince have any power to command his naturall Subjects to live in the state of Subjects immediately from God then Obligation of all his naturall Subjects to yeeld their due Prince all due obedience of lawful Subjects is in like manner imediately from God And as the title of a subject to this dominion or breaking of some penall Statute or committing some notorious offence within this dominion makes me subject unto my Soveraign Lord the King or the State So the character of a christian makes me a subject unto the Pope at least as we Catholics believe and teach And as this man is not my King or Prince but by his inheritance election c. So none can be saluted and stiled Pope but by Canonicall and authenticall election of the Cardinals Now then as the character of Baptisme say we markes a man for the Popes lawfull Subject in spiritualibus Even so for a man to be born or to break a penall Statute for example within the Venetian dominion and State markes a man for the Venetian Republics lawfull Subject and to be born or to break a penall Statute within the Kingdome of France marks a man for the French Kings lawfull Subject 6. Again you have put down and vouched one point for positive and certain which is by catholic Doctors held to be dubitable and questionable namely whether the Popes power and authority when he is gone the beaten way of all flesh doth rest in the Church or whether the Church remaines void of such authority and power so soon as the Pope breathes out his last gaspe Surely those who stand tooth and nayle for the Romish opinion that I may take up the Stile of Navarrus C. Novit will have all power whatsoever in the Roman Bishops to be wholly derived from the Pope so that when the Pope dyes all the Bishops are at a stand or non-plus rather not able to break nor so much as once to bend or bowe the point of this pressing consequence ergo when the Pope dyes the Prelates of the Roman Church are cut off and barred of all their former authority whereupon they wheel and go round about the Bush maintaining with might and main as if Hanibal the Carthagenian Generall were ad Portas in Leaguer before the very gates of Rome that in the Church the foresaid Power is not inherent and yet is inherent in the Church which is to utter and poure out darke riddles or Delphian oracles and to broach mysteries not intelligible Yea it is cleer that Cardinall Bellarmine holds very firm and stiffe that when the Pope dyes the said power vanisheth like smoak out of the Church for he contends that when the Prince dyes the regall authority lives and rests in the community or whole body of Peers and people at least for those Princes who are mounted to Kingdomes or other States by election but when the Pope dyes then the papall authority lives not in the Cardinals by whom the Pope is elected nor yet in the Church This opinion howsoever defended and maintained by Cajetane and those of Rome is encountered and crossed with a contrary opinion held tooth and nayl by the Parisians by the whole Sarbone in generall and in particular by Johan Maior Ja. Almanius Gerson Cap. Novit de Iudi. Notab 3. as it is testified by Navarrus yea Navarrus himselfe marshals this opinion in the rancke of doubtfull Assertions howsoever Cardinall Bellarmine there sets it down for certain whereas in other passages he leaves it as doubtfull 7. You stand much for the word pasce oves feed my sheep as expresly and personally spoken to Peter alone and not likewise to the Church or by name to the rest of the Apostles But I must now tell you Hetrodox that many Doctors do stand not onely for the said words pasce oves feed my sheep but also for the words dabo claves I will give thee the Keyes to be spoken both alike without all question unto Peter howbeit in the person of the whole Church as the Parisians doe both strongly and perspicuously prove Nor can it be a good consequence that because feed my sheepe and I will give thee the Keyes were both spoken to Peter therefore the same words were not spoken to the rest of the Apostles for it is generally confessed and granted of all that all the Apostles were of equall authority howsoever Peter for his faithfull confession made of Christ as also for bearing a most remarkable excesse of love and affection to the person of Christ might seem perhaps to deserve some title of preheminency and prerogative of dignity above the other Apostles The plain verity hereof appeares by that famous passage in the Gospell where Christ having most gracious and heavenly communication with all the Apostles together Mat. 18. and as it were in a knot vouchsafed to use the very same words unto them all that he had used unto Peter before Quaecunque ligaveritis whatsoever yee shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven Lib. 1. de Rom. pont C. 12. and whatsoever yee shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven of which passage the most illustrious Cardinall Bellarmine himselfe hath advisedly been pleased to afford this fayre exposition est igitur communis c. It is the common exposition of S. Jerome Anselmus Hilarius with diverse other writers upon this passage Tract 22. 49. in Ioh. as also of S. August that our Lord there speaks concerning the power of the Keyes whereby the Apostles and other successors of Christ do bind and loose sinners which power a little after the same Lord Cardinall affirmes to be understood both concerning the power of order Mat. 18. and also concerning the power of jurisdiction promised to the Apostles in the foresaid passage but fully and actually given to all the Apstoles by Christ when he said to them all Joh. 20. Peace be unto you As my father hath sent me so do I send you whereas the power of order was given in the last Supper Now that pasce oves feed my sheepe and tibi dabo claves I will give thee the Keyes when both were spoken to Peter Tract 50. in Joh. were in like sort addressed to the Church S. Augustine makes it manifest by his luculent authority and testimony worthy of all credit Si in Petro non esset Ecclesiae Sacramentum c. If the Church was not in Peter sacramentally for certain the Lord Iesus would never have said to Peter I will give unto thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of heaven And if these
words were personally spoken to Peter alone then the power and use of the Keyes rests not in the hand of the Church the action of binding and loosing is no action belonging to the Church but forasmuch as this power is exercised and this action is lawfully used by the whole Church therefore Peter signified the Church when he received the Keyes and then he received the Keyes when Christ said unto him pasce oves feed my sheep S. Augustine takes up the same conceit again in the very same Tract And Leo expounding the passage of I will give thee the Keys concurres with S. Augustine transivit in alios Apostoles c. The vertue and efficacy of this power was conveyed unto the rest of the Apostles it was past over in Peter to the principall and chiefe rulers of the Church S. Cyprian hits the bird in the right eye Erant caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus c. De simpl Praelat The rest of the Apostles had equall share and portion with Peter in the participation as well of dignity as of power but because every beginning springs out of unity the honour of precedence or the primacy was therefore conferred or cast upon Peter as upon one for all to declare the unity of the Church or the Church to be but one By all these passages with many more in the ancient Fathers and Catholic Doctors it is cleare concerning the authority given to S. Peter that in a like and equall degree it was conferred upon all the Apostles and the Church It shall suffice thus briefly to have touch'd that you argue not upon a certain and infallible ground when you have thrust upon us the words pasce oves to have been spoken only to S. Peter and not also to the Church because aswell the promise of dabo claves I will give the Keyes as the fulfilling of the promise in pasce oves feed my sheepe is no lesse applyable and appropriate unto the other Apostles and unto the Church then unto Peter himselfe in the judgement of the Fathers But I proceed to point out more of your palpable errors 8. The Pope saith Hetrodox hath no power to alienate any one Province from his Papall and spirituall jurisdiction Why sir the Pope is not Lord over the people of this or that Province as they are Inhabitants of the said Province he is onely their Pastor as they are Christians In regard whereof he hath no power to alienate any one province or anyone single person First because all provinces are not belonging to Christians neither in Freehold tenure nor in sockage tenure nor in any other lawfull tenure Secondly because howsoever a large part of Christendome takes knowledge of the Pope as of their superior and lives within the vergerie and precinct of his papall power neverthelesse that superiority of the Pope is not founded nor grounded upon any right of dominon And where no dominion there no alienation I speak of such Princes as are not subject unto the Pope in Temporalibus And is the chief Bishop no Lord when he parteth stakes with Christ himselfe in the honourable Title of our Lord and without addition is called our Lord even as Christ himselfe is called our Lord No doubt he is a great Lord according to the opinion sense and service of his devoted creatures But let his height and elevation be taken by the staffe of that common Title and ordinary style that he honours himselfe withall in his letters pontificiall when he writes himselfe Servus servorum the servant of those that serve God and where then is his Lordship or what is then become thereof What dominion in the servant of servants No we are to hold and beleive the contrary because our sweet Saviour Jesus hath delivered and taught us the contrary Said he not unto his Disciples and Apostles once upon a time at contention Luk. 22. which of them should be the greatest The Kings of the Gentiles doe raigne over the Gentiles but amongst you my Disciples there shall be no such matter but let him amongst you that is greatest be as he that serveth To the same purpose he said to his Apostles John 20. As my Father hath sent me so send I you and how that forsooth not in great power and pomp not in any altitude or excesse of high majesty as he shall appeare himselfe at his second comming but in great humility as himselfe came at first as Saint Bernard speaketh Ser. de Ad. Yea S. Peter himselfe teaching the office of Pastors in the Church commands them to feed the flock of Christ which dependeth upon their charge caring for the Flock 1 Pet. 5. not by constraint but with a willing mind not for filthie lucre but of a ready mind not as Lords over Gods heritage but as fair ensamples to to the Flock of Christ Vpon which passage Ad Eugen. p. p. that good Father hath built and founded this Aphorisme Apostolis interdicitur dominatio indicitur ministratio The Apostles are prohibited to lord it over the Flock and are expresly charged to walke in the state or quality of servants to the Flock Hence it is that when the Lord Christ spake to Peter he said not Pasce oves tuas Feed thy Flock but Pasce oves meas Feed my Flock For Christ alone is the chief Pastor the onely high Priest having as the Apostle speaks Heb. 7. an everlasting Priesthood He alone is the soveraign Judge There is but one Law-giver and Judge who is able to save and destroy Jac. 4. As for the Pope himselfe and other Ecclesiasticall Prelates they are dispensers or disposers of the secrets of God 1 Cor. 4. the Pope therefore who hath nothing of his own and proper or essentiall to his Chaire Jure pontificatus only and simply as Pope or in right of pontificall Priesthood hath no power at all to make alienation of any thing whatsoever but rather forasmuch as his power is a spirituall power and over soules he can make no alienation of soules from the dominion of Christ who is the head of the Church but by making them Apostates and Run-agates from the faith of Christ for the Pope hath none other power over soules but spirituall power to convert and to direct soules unto life eternall Which kind of superiority howsoever it is of spirituall jurisdiction and of the greatest eminency yet forasmuch as it is not indowed with dominion the Pope for that reason and in that sole respect if there were no more hath no power to make alienation of any one Christian soul or sheep belonging to the Fold of Christ whereas the secular Prince hath power to dispose of his own Teritories Crown Lands Demeasnes and other possessions by way of alienation because he holds them as things alienable howsoever he hath no power to take any such extravagant and exorbitant courses in cases of hault importance and consequence Nisi in evidentem utilitatem
Ecclesiastic is not in so precise manner or direct degree immediate from God as the power secular The reason Because it is in the man Christ or in Christ as man to wit as in the Head of the Church Joh. 22. to whom alone it is immediately communicated of God All Power is given to me in Heaven and on Earth So that all Ecclesiastick power which the chiefe Bishop challengeth and assumeth to himselfe is at best hand but a Delegate power communicated and committed to him by Christ For Christ being that Mediator between God and man as the Apostle speaketh it must follow by good consequence that God gives the superiority and power Ecclesiastic to the chief Bishop not immediately without meanes but mediately or by meanes id est Per Christum mediatorem by the Mediator Christ or by the meanes of Christ and this mediate power of the Pope is no Soveraign or Princely power but a Vicariate or deputed power it imports not Dominion and Soveraignty but rather Service and Ministery And hereupon the chiefe Bishop takes it for no disparagement for no vility for no abatement in his high and honourable Stile to be titled the servant of Gods servants a Pastor a Bishop c. All which titles imply Ministery rather then Lordship and humility rather then greatnes Mat. 11.8 For dominion and grandene are not sutable not sortable not compatible with a chiefe Bishops house as he is a Bishop Luk. 7.25 but with Kings Courts Hetrod I find Orthodox that you have the Prince of Philosophers Eleuchs at your fingers end but withall that you are superlatively positive in your new doctrine Orthod Soft good Sir a little more of your patience neither my Doctrine Hetrodox nor new doctrine It is no piece of my coine but comes out of S. Pauls Mint yea rather it beares a right stamp of the Holy Ghost speaking with S. Pauls tongue or at least writing with S. Pauls quill The Apostles words are thus couched and extant in the text Let every soule be subject to the higher Powers Rom. 13.1 for there is no Power but of God which text is expounded by Chrysostome in these expresse tearmes Facit hoc Ap. c. The Apostles purpose and intent is to shew in these words that Christ hath not brought his divine Lawes and Ordinances into the Church of any such intent and purpose as to undermine and subvert politic Regiments and civill States but for the better establishing and reforming of humane governments And there the Apostle teacheth withall that all Subjects and inferiors are bound to the due performance of his Apostolicall precept and charge not only seculars but also cloistered Monkes and Priests for so much is testified and verified in his first words Let every soule be subject unto the higher Powers be thou Apostle Evangelist Prophet or of any other degree condition or quality in state of a Subject Neque tamen pietatem subvertit ista subjectio howbeit godlinesse by this kind of subjection shall never come in danger to be subverted Thus farre Chrysostome Hetrod You go too farre Orthodox I neither can bear in my self nor forbear you any longer The passage which you alleadge and quote out of Paul treats of power in a generallity and teacheth obedience of Subjects to their lawfull Soveraigns and Superiors in grosse or to Superiors of every sort and degree and of every calling to be by Gods own Ordinance It doth not directly shew that such and such persons are subject in their callings to the secular Prince by the immediate Ordinance of God It is not denyed that all power is of God but some power is immediately of God Such was the authority of Moses and Aaron such also now is the Popes authority and power Some other power is likewise of God but mediatly as by meanes of succession or of election or of some other humane title And as for Chrysostoms testimony upon S. Pauls passage it is thus to be answered The holy Father affirmeth not in his testimony that Priests and Monks are bound by S. Pauls precept and authority to render obedience unto secular Princes but rather unto their own Superiors whomsoever It is no lesse true that Ecclesiastics are bound to keep and observe all such Lawes politick and civill as are not repugnant unto Ecclesiastic Lawes and such as are necessary for common commerce between Ecclesiastic and Laic persons For in the course and cariage of temporall affaires as Pope Nicolaus writeth unto the Emperour the Church makes good use of the Lawes Imperiall Howbeit Ecclesiastics are not bound and tyed to such observance of secular Princes Lawes by way of any force but only by way of direction that is to say Vi rationis non vi legis by vertue and right of reason but not by vertue and right of Law Let me give this instance for example The temporall Prince commands a tax to be set upon the price of corn in this case Ecclesiastics are bound to buy and sell at such price not because they are bound to the said law but because they are bound to buy and sell at a just and lawfull price and because in reason of State as also in common reason the price taxed by any lawfull Prince within his own Teritories must passe the muster of lawfull prices Howbeit say it comes to passe that some Ecclesiastic breaks the said law yet can he not for such delict or transgression of the Law be fetcht Coram nobis before the civill Judge or Magistrate by Sub paena or by any other of the Kings Writs nor can he be punished by the Laic Prince to whom he is not subject but by processe out of his own Ecclesiasticall Superiors Court. Orthod Let me have leave Hetrodox to give you the stop in your full careere know you Hetrodox what you say Is the Apostles text Let every soule be subject to the higher Powers to be understood of power in generall and not of secular Princes power The best is you avouch it with a bare affirmative you send it forth but bare and naked without any upper Garment not so much as a Waste-coate either of double or single stuffe I meane without any one reason of proofe at all But how can it be possible that Paul there speaks of power in generall Is it not his full and whole scope in that Chapter to stop the mouthes of those who slandered the Christians of that age and time to be seditious routs to professe very scandalous and pernitious doctrine to wit that Christians were not bound to the obedience of secular Princes but were exempted from all secular jurisdiction S. Paul then speakes to the point and saith Let every soul be subject to the higher powers i. e. to seculars of eminent place and high charge yea the very epithite Sublimioribus higher is a plain tearm of restraining the word Power And that S. Paul did foster and fancy none other conceit or meaning I appeale to
riseth out of true premises even so your concluon or his Lordshrhs which you please is false because it is inferred upon false premises that is drawn from a fufty vessel of unwholsome doctrine which the one of you two hath broached the piercing or at least running whereof I have now as you see endeavoured to stop with a handsome Faucet 1. Will you now be pleased to see your errours to make men subject unto their lawfull Prince by Gods law you hold it needfull that for the right and title of their subjection some text of holy Scripture be produced remember it hath been declared before that power and title to power are two different heads that power is from God and of necessity followes or comes after title The French King rules and governes in France not by law of inheritance but by vertue of authority received from God The Venetian Prince I meane the Republic and body of State howsoever you have learned of Cardinall Bellarmine with great artifice and skill to seale up the eyes of your own knowledge in the matter beares not command and rule over Padua by such meanes as they first attained to the dominion thereof but because being impatronised or made Lords of Padua by humane meanes they have it now in command and ever had from the time of their first occupation possession by vertue of the power and right received from God himselfe And herein what difference can you find to lye between Prince and Pope For if the Pope shall be asked wherefore he is Pope this will be his answer because I have been Canonically elected by the Cardinals to the Popedome and for that purpose he will never study or stand to produce any testimony of Scripture but aske him by what authority he gives or grants his indulgences c. surely he will answer because God hath given him power to forgive sinnes 2. To prove that Princes are subject unto priests by the law of God you cut out and frame a silly sheepish argument from sheepe and shepherds Gods law say you is the law of nature by natures law the sheep is in state of subjection to the Shepherd by Gods law therefore the Laic Prince is in the like state of Subjection to the Priest I answer the Prince is no sheep of the Shepheard priest but of the great Shepherd Christ for Christ said not to Peter Feed thy Sheep but Feed my Sheep So that your Argument if it conclude any thing at all concludes that Princes are subject unto Christ and not unto the Priest Nay the Priest as a sheep in temporall causes and matters is rather subject unto the Prince David gave the terme and nomination of sheep to all his people and Subjects Ego erravi isti qui sunt Oves quid focerunt It is I that have sinned what have these my sheepe done S. Pauls words are pungent and peremptory Let every soule be subject unto the higher Powers If then your argument hath any sinewes to evince that Subjects are bound by Gods law to yeeld obedience unto their Superiors of highest power then all priests likewise who are Subjects no lesse then others are directly bound by Gods law to the due obedience of their temporall Princes penall or Statute Lawes at least in temporall matters 3. The father you say is not subject unto the sonne if Hetrodox his own Father yet living were now elected King or Pope should not Hetrodox his Father as a man and a Christian be subject unto Hetrodox his Sonne whether King or Pope Howsoever young Hetrodox the sonne should beare due respect and reverence to old Hetrodox as to the Father Again the Father a Laic may receive absolution of his own sonne a priest and the son a priest may receive correction by the authority and command of his Father a secular Magistrate if men would not be intrapped in the snares of error they must learn to distinguish between titles and persons a Prince in spirituals being a sonne in temporals may be a Father 4. Touching the similitude of body and soul howsoever I grant it may be true in part as in this point by name that a temporall Prince his power is Per se of it selfe over the body and the spirituall priests power is over mens soules yet your similitude wants weight of truth in some other part and halts down right For temporall power save only as it is exercised by a Christian is not subordinate to spirituall power no not in ecclesiasticall and spirituall causes on the contrary the subjection of priests in temporall causes is plainly subordinate unto the temporall Prince Arguments thus framed are not worth a rush temporall power is over mens bodies and spirituall power is over their soules as the body then is directed and ruled by the soule and the soule not by the Body so he that is armed and authorised with temporall power must be directed and ruled by such as are invested with spirituall power I say again such reasons are not worth a rush for body and soule together do make one whole compound creature which is man whereas corporall power and spirituall power make not one body but rather two bodies and two heads These two powers as both are powers are different in all things and without subordination as either of them is a power neither doth Nazianzen teach the contrary much lesse teach your affirmative as who soever will read Gregory himselfe shall readily finde For thus much Gregory writeth in effect and no more that as the soule is more noble then the body so the spirituall power is more noble then the temporall which for my part so long as I go for a Roman Catholic I dare not deny 5. You are much overseen Hetrodox to charge me with makeing use of this doctrine to the hurt of the Church when I should rather whet and scoure my weapons against hereticks And herein you resemble me to the spider that sucks poyson from the same sweet and oderiferous herbs or flowers out of which the industrious Bee sucks honey Have you not herein much forgot your selfe He that delivers the truth neither fights nor speakes against our mother the Church but against such as harbour settled and secret pretensions in their breasts to usurpe more then appertains to their persons callings or degrees Again the Church is the Kingdome of heaven and you speak in your whole discourse of none but earthly Kingdomes in which without all question the Church can have no share nor interest nisi per accidens ex donatione fidelium but such as comes upon the By as we say that is by casuall meanes or else by franke donation or free gift of the faithfull the grandeur of all which earthly Kingdomes and of all other temporall States the Church doth establish Thirdly the use of this doctrine tendeth and serveth not only for the confuting and extirping of heresies or heretics but likewise of all such as maintain and broach any
or the Romane people or anie other should be invested with power to create the Emperour of the West I see no Reason to argue upon that maine point in this place or at this instant 6. You lay to my charge that I utter contradictions to the sayings of Popes and the Decrees of Councels yet you know there is no such matter I onely averre that Leo did what he then did not by anie Right annexed or inherent in his Pontificiall Power whereas the said Popes and the Councell speake de Facto of the fact it selfe and perhaps de alio jure humanâ— of some other humane Right whereof I make no manner of mention 7. You made no bones to affirme in your former objections against my first Proposition that Authoritie to chuse the Prince in case of necessitie resteth in the Subjects or People and now you denie the Romane people had any power to chuse Charles for their Emperour 8. You stick not also to approve the Election of the Emperour made by the Armie and Romane Militia which was a violent Election Augustus was honoured with power of Tribune after Caesar the lawfull Prince of the Romanes he was not elected by the Armie but by the People from whom he obtained the consular Power though hee was afterward confirmed therein by a violent Election of the Armie to which the Romane People not of Power then to beard or brave the Armie were glad to give faire Aime and to make way by condescention As for St. Jerome by you cited Hetrodox he speakes onely of the Fact hee doth not affirme that way and none other was the lawfull way of chusing their Emperours And this I must now tell you Hetrodox is most certaine that Vespasian had no humour to be elected but by the votes and suffrages of the Romane People with the verie same power of Augustus I appeale to that famous Marble in the Capitoll with title of Lex Regia c. 9. You give approbation to the violent Fact of the Souldiers in Armes who shew Maximus Balbinus because they had beene elected by the Senate whereas the Election was fastne by the Lawes and sowed to the peoples arme because the Romane Government was Democraticall 10. Platina with divers other Authors hath testified that Charles the Great was onely declared Emperour by the Pope with a loud voice and that Leo crowned him Scito precibus Populi Romani by Decree and upon the suite of the Romane People Now to the same Dâ—cree you bring this fine interpretation that doubtlesse the people did not decree that Leo should publish proclaim and crown him Emperor but only they should request Leo to doe it propriâ authoritate by his Papall authoritie A man that lookes not well into this quaint device and slie tricke may thinke and say the Romane people passed the same Decree in a certaine conceit or dreame that such power was devolved to them in case of necessitie and not otherwise by Right But you against reason and right sense of the words will have the Fact attributed to the Pope who by right of Popedome could worke no such effect and so you forsake the ordinarie waies for approbation of the Fact seeking the refuge of extraordinarie waies not intelligible 11. You produce that for a Reason which resteth in the Question For as you pretend and contend to translate Empires and States it is enough for one to be Pope This you confirme because some Popes though but a few have had the spirit and face to worke such fâ—ats and to play such prankes The most of those few have indeed given the attempt but I beseech you Sir with what successe And albeit some few but verie seldome have not missed of their marke this makes no proofe that anie Pope either doth it or can do it as he is Pope For Arguments drawne from the Fact to the Right are not worth a blew point especiallie when the right is contrarie to the Fact For the Pontificiall See as it is the Pontificiall See not having the exercise of anie such Dominion annexed thereunto neither by the example of Christ our Lord or of all the Popes for many hundred yeares nor by any Text of holy Scripture whensoever the Pope hath exercised any such Dominion to render a Reason thereof it shall not be needfull to run or flye to the Popedome but rather to some humane constitution or violence or Title 12. Last of all you declare a strange vaine of distemper in telling me this Doctrine that no exercise of Temporall Dominion is annexed to the Popedome by Gods Word is an errour in Theologie and an Herefie in Historie You must now be contented if I pay you in the same Coyne that for any to say the contrarie it is an Errour in Historie and nothing conformable to Theologie as before hath beene declared Have you now anie new tire of Ordnance to discharge Hetrodox Not against your third Proposition Orthodox But have at your fourth to morrow morning Orthodox Agreed Hetrodox The fourth daies Conference upon the fourth Proposition Hetrodox WEll met valiant Champion Defendant Orthodox And you mighty Champion opponent Are your Peeces for batterie readie to discharge Hetrodox At first sight of your Sconce Orthodox Here it is in all Dimensions and Delineations That Authoritie which Christ our Lord promised to St. Peter under a Metaphor of Keyes is meerly Spirituall I will give thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven hee saith not of any earthlie Kingdome For in what manner the Temporall Kingdome and Monarchie should be governed the Plat-forme was drawn and the Foundation was laid from the beginning of the World by God himselfe great Monarch of the universe So that Christ our Saviour never founded the Temporall Monarchie it remaines then that he was the Founder of the Spirituall And that 's most evident in St. Johns Gospell Ioan. 20. For after he had said all power is given unto mee both in Heaven and in Earth Ioan. 20. at anie hand he would give the same to Peter and all the rest of his Apostles with a certain limitation He breathed on them all and said receive the Holie Ghost to whomsoever ye shall remit sinnes they shall be remitted and whose sinnes whosoever ye shall retaine they shall be retained From whence it is to be gathered both by the Act of Christ and by his words that all the authoritie of the highest Bishop is meerly Spirituall over sin and onely over the Soule which power as hath beene said is a limited power Qui beato Petro animas ligandi atque solvendi Pontificium tradidisti who hast given Peter the Dignitie and Power of Pontificiall estate to bind and loose innumerable Soules Mat. 18. Thus the Church you know in her Orisons yea the Authority to excommunicate given to Peter himselfe is tyed to a condition If thy Brother shall sinne against thee and shall not heare the Church let him be unto thee as a verie Ethnick and
any man because he is a Thiefe or an Adulterer except first he be admonished and then he wilfully denies obedience But betweene disobedience and obstinacie there is a great difference For a man may stand stubborne and obstinate in some sin whereof he hath never beene advised never admonished by the Church This man for all his obstinacie cannot be stricken with a Thunder-Bolt of Excommunication On the contrary a man may be disobedient and for his disobedience may be Excommunicated albeit afterward he persist not obstinate in Disobedience The words of Christ if he will not heare the Church do signifie disobedience and to speake properly not obstinacie Orthodox Fie Hetrodox that a man of your deepe learning should be so shallow I will not say idle in a matter so serious So clear is the light of this fourth Proposition that I much wonder how you have devised and raised any matter against it whereby to make opposition Now to frame the sounder answer it will be necessary to make some Explication of the Proposition it selfe I speake not here of all the powers which Peter had from Christ our Lord as his Vicar in Earth for they were two the one of Order the other of Jurisdiction In this place I meddle not with power of Order I onely define the power of Jurisdiction and this power I say is meerly Spirituall First because Christ our Lord never practised any Temporall Jurisdiction but this jurisdiction which Christ gave to Peter is part of the same Jurisdiction which was practised by Christ himselfe Ergo it is no manner of way Temporall but meerely Spirituall The Major as it is called hath beene proved before at large the Minor is cleere by the words of Christ himselfe As the Father hath sent me so I send you the consequence therefore or conclusion remaines indubitable Ioan. 20. that this Jurisdiction is no manner of way Temporall Secondly This Jurisdiction or Power is not all that Power which Christ himselfe had as Head of the Church For he never according to all the Doctors communicated to his Apostles the Power of his Excâ—llencie much lesse the power of his Spirituall Kingdome which by Cardinall Bellarmine is called his Power Eternall yet such as had a beginning though it shall continue and last for ever with which Power by secret meanes he governes his Church For that power he practiseth and exerciseth in Heaven by himselfe alone It is therefore a Branch of that power whereof our Saviour saith Data est mihi omnis Potestas All power is given unto me the power of Christ whether as high Priest or as King is meerely Spirituall Ioan. 20. as it is proved by the Authority of St. Augustine and of all the best Divines the Branch therefore of the same power namely that Branch which was given to St. Peter is meerly Spirituall Thirdly The power given to Peter is to Loose and to Binde that is to absolve and not absolve sinne the power to absolve or not absolve sinnes is meerely Spirituall Ergo the power of Binding and Loosing given to Peter is meerly Spirituall Fourthly Hee that defines a Habit from the end thereof drawes the best Definition Thus hath Aristotle defined vertue virtus est quae â—onum faecit habenteâ— vertue is that which betters her owner and possessour the end of the Popes power according to all is life eternall and that end is meerly Spirituall Ergo he that affirmes the Popes power is meerely Spirituall produceth a right affirmative because he defines the Popes power by the right and proper end thereof Lastly If the power of Jurisdiction which Christ gave unto Peter had not beene meerly Spirituall but Temporall doubtlesse he would have taken up materiall Kâ—yes and would have said unto Peter and the rest of the Apostles take ye these keyes whose sinnes c. But Christ having done that Spirituall work breathed on them all and said Receive ye the Holy Ghost and saying these words receive ye the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit he undoubtedly declared it was no Temporall power that hee then bestowed but a power meerly Spirituall And this Hetrodox is that which before I have pronounced that as well by the Act which our Saviour did as also by the words that hee spake it is aptly gathered that for certaine the said power is meerely Spirituall Now I purpose to draw a Picture of your particular Errours 1. You argue from the Genus to the Species in this manner The Popes power as Orthodox affirmes is meerely Spirituall Orthodox therefore hardly believes the Pope to be some simple Priest or common Curate just as if I should frame this Reason Hetrodox affirmes that a Lion is a creature therefore Hetrodox affirmes that a Lion is a little Ant or Pismire or this Argument Hetrodox affirmes the power of the most Christian King is Temporall therefore Hetrodox affirmes the most Christian King is the Father of a private Familie with power oeconomicall were it not a very abusive straine a wrong intollerable if I should make Hetrodox the Father of so ridiculous Ergoes worthy to be hissed knocked and stamped out of all Theologicall and Philosophicall Schooles If Orthodox pretends and avouches that Papall power is meerly Spirituall he doth not forsooth thereby avouch that Papall power is restrained to a private Familie and without all Jurisdiction like the power of every simple and common Curate but Orthodox grants it is a power over all the Soules that are subject unto the Popes power 2. Againe Sir you are pleased to terme it Heresie for any to affirme that Papall power is meerly Spirituall and I must make bold to tell you Hetrodox the contrary Doctrine hath no great conformity or congruity with divine Scripture and by name is not conformable to that faire Text Sicut misit me c. As my Father hath sent me Ioan. 20. so I send you my Apostles the power which our Saviour himselfe being sent of his Father exercised in this world was meerly Spirituall Ergo the Popes power being a Branch of the same power which Christ himselfe exercised is likewise meerly Spirituall True it is that his power as we must hold extends and spreads it selfe Jure Divino by Gods Law over all his owne Subjects which Article being denied by the foresaid Authors whom you have remembred before they were thereupon condemned but not because they maintained the Popes power to be meerely Spirituall For it is one thing to maintaine the Pope hath no Jurisdiction and another thing to affirme that his Jurisdiction is meerely Spirituall 3. You alledge Navarrus to this purpose That Papall power is not meerly Temporall as if he had said the Popes power is Temporall but accessorily Spirituall Thus much is noted by these words is not meerly Temporall But know Hetrodox that Navarrus was never so much overseene to suffer so grosse an Errour to drop out of his learned braine or painfull quill Navarrus affirmes the full contrary take the file
Secondly he should have a holy designe to attempt and enterprise the hardest labours of all other as to tumble the great Turke downe from his Imperiall Throne to pull his Regall Crowne from his Royall Head or to convert all the Indies or to reduce the whole World to the unity of the Church and such like matters of the highest stuffe which because the Pope neither will nor can performe it is easie for all men to judge that his Holinesse for all your sayings doth not governe all Kingdomes as God himselfe doth 7. Moreover you faine would make men believe that as God governes all Kingdomes not depriving any of their Free-hold whether it be Kingdome or Power so the Pope governes Kingdomes and takes not power from Kings First because those words of the Church are spoken of Christ man and not of of Christ God as the Lord Cardinall saith of whom Herod was afraid that he would spoile him of his Kingdome Hostes Herodes impie Christum venire quid times O ungodly enemie King Herod what ayles thee to be afraid of Christs comming Then Secondly because no man is to busie himself like a Polypragmon with exercise of Temporall power within the Dominions of any other Prince as a Prince Independent neither can any man exercise the said power therein without robbing the said Prince of his lawfull power within his owne Dominions what man ever enriched himselfe without impoverishing of some other 8. Again you make it a crime no lesseheinous then Herefie for any man to teach the power of Jurisdiction given to the Apostles is the very same power which Christ himselfe gave My reading tels me not a word of any other Text where our Lord Christ hath given his Apostles the power of Jurisdiction Ioan. 20. yea all the Doctors nay Christ himselfe doth not furnish mee with any other Text but in the same he teacheth us three things the first is Data est mihi omnis potestas in Coelo in terrâ All power is given to me both in Heaven and in Earth And this he speakes to teach that his good will and pleasure was to communicate some part of his entire and absolute power unto his Apostles The second Sicut misiit me Pater ego mitto vos As my Father hath sent me so I send you that is my Father sent me to take away to cancell all bonds for sinne and to worke all that which Hetrodox and Cardinal Bellarmine hath produced and alledged conatrry to the foresaid second Proposition and in like sort I send you now O my Apostles to doe and performe the said workes In which words our Saviour Christ made not his Apostles entercommoners with himselfe in his whole Spirituall Power â— No no such matter for hee communicated not unto them the power say we to absolve without Sacraments nor power to institute Sacraments c. nor the power of his owne Spirituall and Heavenly Kingdome so that Sicut the word As must be taken in a limited sense and not without some dooles and bounders of Limitation The third that Christ breathed on the Apostles and said Receive ye the Holy Ghost whose sinnes ye shall remit c. There our Saviour Christ likewise limits the word Sicut As That is to say I give you Spirituall Jurisdiction over Soules and over sinnes O my deare and faithfull servants Can there be any doubt or question hereof No verily For here the promise is fulfilled What promise The same that Christ made to Peter and the rest of the Apostles under the Metaphor of Binding and Loosing of locking up in Prison with Keyes and of delivering from Prison by the same Keyes This runs currant and so shall runne so long as the houre-glasse of old Father Time hath a drop of water or a crum of sand to let fall That for certaine the servitude or bondage from which we are delivered by Christ is the slaverie of sinne so that our liberty must needs be the liberty of Grace Mat. 18. And that is the reason wherefore the promise of Christ made in Metaphoricall Speech is expounded in these plaine and proper termes whose sinnes ye shall forgive Ioan. 20. c. For to locke and to deliver with Keyes to bind and to let loose to forgive and to retaine sinnes are phrases of Speech importing and signifying one thing partly according to proper and partly according to Metaphoricall Construction 9. You maintaine that Pontificiall power is unlimited but I cannot see your Assertion backt with any Reason or Authority neither can I find with what Leggs it walkes or upon what stumps it stands For the Lord God alone is cloathed and armed with unlimited power The Principall himselfe is invested with unlimited power but so is not his Vicar or Vice-gerent And besides to speake out of the teeth be you never so loth to heare it I cannot see how it is not repugnant unto Christian Faith to affiâ—me the whole power that Christ had himsâ—lâ—e as Head of the Church and that now he retaineth in Heaven hee hath communicated to the Pope which doubtlesse whosoever affirmes if your selfe be the affirmant he affirmes who affirmes the Popes Power is without limitation Ioan. 20. 10. Againe You have heard me onely stand for the power of Jurisdiction which our Saviour gave in these words Receive ye the Holy Ghost and you now urge the word Pasce Feed which word wraps in both powers not only the power of Jurisdiction but also the power of Oâ—der 11. I have not restrained the Popes Power to this or that kind of Subjâ—cts but have onely spoken in generall and have yeelded to the Pope all that Spirituall Jurisdiction By like Hetrodox you thinke that you talke and conferre with a man of Wood with a stock that hath not so much as the least sparke of Discourse or of Religion upon the Subject now in conference But you shall find your selfe deceived and that you have to deale with an Antagonist neither stock-like nor block-like 12. Without any occasion you passe over the River to the Pastures I meane to the word Pasce Feed and here you say that in the originall Greeke it signifies Peter governe and rule my Lambes Now Sir I doe not deny that Christ is the Spirituall King and Pastor of the Church or that as Temporall Kings in Scripture are called Pastors Feeders and Shepheards in Temporals even so Christ himselfe the Pastor is likewise King in Spirituals Nor doe I deny the Pope to be Christs Vicar and vice-roy with a limited Power in Spirituals a power every way most eminent as extending over Christian soules But from this can you Hetrodox well collect and gather that our Holy Father the Pope is a Temporall King much lesse a Spirituall King as Christ is himselfe and least of all that hee hath any Temporall Power by right of hiâ— Pontificiall Dignity and Authority St. John takes up the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twice and the
partly Excommunicate to reduce and bring them unto the lap of the Church and now behold they departed from the Faithfull unjustly excommunicated and interdicted Fiftly that if all the Religious had followed the example of those few in abandoning their Pastorall charges the Venetian Dominion should have beene left for a Country of Paganisme without any Priests that Woolves at pleasure might have run together on heaps to woorrie and to glut their paunches with the blood of the silly sheepe and Lambs of Christ Last of all the occasion of this great scandall was augmented by some temerarious and over-confident Bravodoes in speech cast out by the said Religious that his Holinesse the Pope is the Monarch of Christendome and ought in all things whether Temporall or Spirituall to be obeyed by whomsoever These are scandals to speake truth inexcusable which in case they doe not spring from the blindnesse of those by whom they are given it may well and truly be averred their Actions are so much the more culpable and the more to be condemned 4. You grant obedience to the Naturall Prince and concurrence in his Defence is by Gods Law and the holy Fathers sentence by mans Law and neverthelesse without any reason you denie the consequence that Subjects have done well and taken the right course in obeying their Prince rather then the Sentence of the Pope The instance which you induce is of no more force or weight then your first Answer For thus you inferre If it be according to Gods Law for Subjects to defend the Liberty of their Naturall Prince on Earth much more it is according to Gods Law to defend the liberty of the Church the Spouse of the Prince in Heaven It is a true Inference I confesse but nothing pertinent or proper to the present case because the Lords of Venice never pretended to rob the Church of any Right or Libertie whatsoever For the Lords leaving all things in their entire strength doe enact most just Lawes and ordinary judgements touching Delicts and Goods which are subject unto their power This they have alwaies done time out of mind and yet never anie of this present Popes predecessors hath taken stomack against our Lords for such their Acts but rather by connivance or tacite silence hath yeelded gracious consent to their just operations So that in Venice there being none that goeth about or seeks to deprive the Church of anie Libertie how can the Ecclesiastics there have anie occasion to defend the said Libertie 5. You againe confound the word Duke and the word Prince The Duke doth not anie thing of him selfe in the Venetian State the Prince that is the Republic sets downe all Orders the Prince makes all the Lawes To what purpose then should you seek to draw the person of the Duke into any odious hatred by putting the Duke to be the Author of those Acts which are to be attributed unto the whole Republic as unto the true Father and Mother of the said Acts. 6. You affirme the Prince of Venice commits to prison such as have ho ranke amongst his owne Subjects The contrary hath been already proved that Clerics in grievous Delicts which touch not so much as the hemme of Spirituals are not exempted so that by consequence they are in the ranke of Subjects as also it hath beene shewed before that the liberty left by Christ our Lord unto the Church is the libertie of the Spirit and from the bondage or slaverie of sinne 7. The Lawes now in question made by the Lords of Venice you say are against Justice and Pietie For this Opposition I will turne you over and referre all indifferent Judges to Antonius Quirinus a most noble Senator of the State in his Aviso and to F. Paulus of Venice in his Considerationi 8. You put us in mind that Ecclesiasticall Sentences as touching power are by Gods Law This will not be denyed or gaine-said so long as they marshall themselves within their own bounds and territories but when they fall to range out of their owne Religion or Limits and to lash those who justly stand upon the practise of their owne Temporall and lawfull power then they are not onelie by Gods Law in respect of their power but directlie opposite unto the Law of God and flat against all reason 9. You grant and confesse the present Controversie stands not in point of Faith but in matter of Manners Then you subjoyne that which neither your selfe nor anie other hath not proved nor shall ever by Gods grace be able to prove that in the Bookes written by such as hold and maintaine the opinion of the Republic there are to be found sundrie Errours in Faith An Error in Faith is when one affirmes a point of Doctrine contrarie either to sacred Scripture or to the definitive judgment of the Church which cannot erre tanquam de Fide This no man living shall be able to prove hath at anie time been taught by such as have defended or now doe maintain the cause of the Republic When matters are debated of so great importance it is not lawfull to hang a Priest in generals If the Disputant seeke or think men should give him Faith and Credit without all hesitation he must come to the particulars In the meane time so long as the parties offended are reproved by others and no just cause at all shewed of the said Reproofe they have reason to believe the said Reproofe will result and turne to their favour 10. You confound the Principles and the Conclusion which is virtually contained in the Principles The Principle from which the opinion of the Republic is derived is touching Faith and in St. Paul Omnis anima c. Let every Soule be subject unto the higher Powers but the Conclusion is a certaine opinion grounded upon all that hath beene said before I have not said the Principle taught by St. Paul is an opinion but have onely said that opinion is most certain which is grounded upon a Principle of Faith taught by the Divine Apostle And so the sharpe subtiltie or subtle sharpnesse of this your opposition vanisheth like smoake in the vast Region of the Aire 11. St. Pauls text Obey them that have the over-fight of you and submit your selves for they watch for your Soules as they that must give account for your Soules you understand to enjoyne obedience unto Spirituall overseers in all things or matters whatsoever whereas the Apostle by whom this lesson had been taught before concerning Temporall Princes Let every Soule be subject unto the higher Powers to the end he might not goe crosse or speake in termes of contradiction that former Principle is understood by all writers on that place to the Hebrewes to treate of Spirituall power and over Soules This appears by the account which the said Prelates must render unto God namely an account for the Soules of the people not for their Goods or other Temporall matters 12. I never speake of the Head in