their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
infallible and the Mistress of all other Churches that there is a Purgatory with the rest of those Doctrines which they embrace and we reject Nay these opinions with their consequences rather tend to make men much worse than otherwise they would have been Some of them make them more loose and careless in the leading of their lives and some make them most cruel and uncharitable to such as differ from them yea render them many times disobedient to their rulers and furious disturbers of the peace by Plots and Treasons and Rebellions for the advancing of their cause True Christianity puts men upon no such courses but these are the natural effects of Popery as has often been verified by sad experience L. I understand you well and am fully perswaded that we in our Church do embrace all those Christian Doctrines that tend to the promoting of good life and do retain none that are an hindrance to it But what say you to their objections against Calvin and Luther who as my Author says were very wicked men and strange stories he tells of them out of Bolsec and other Writers of their Church T. To this I answer that it sufficiently appears how bad their cause is which must be maintain'd by the most odious lies and forgeries For there are no Books in the world less to be credited than those which their Monks and Priests have written in praise of those they have Canonized for Saints and in dispraise of such as they have damned for Hereticks making the former somewhat more than Angels and the latter worse than Devils But as to Calvin and Luther some of the more ingenuous even of their own Church have given a fairer character of them than their lying Bolsec and such Authors And had they but been as zealous for Popery as they were against it no doubt but they had past amongst them for great Saints with all their faults But in the mean time were they really as bad as they falsely accuse them to be yet are we little or nothing concerned herein since they were not the Reformers of our Church Nor yet if they had is it the goodness of this or that person which we are obliged to defend but the truth of our Doctrine and the lawfulness and necessity of our Reformation Thus they make a great out-cry against Henry the Eighth what a bad man he was and what ill designs he had in throwing off the Popes Supremacy which was the most he did toward the Reformation but let his designs be what they would the thing it self was justifiable and good VVhat if a bad Emperor upon carnal designs should have supprest Heathenism and promoted Christianity as Constantine himself was accused by some is this any dishonour to the Christian Religion But little cause have Papists of all men to talk of ill instruments whilst they may remember from what a Trayterous Murderer and Usurper the Pope first received the title of Universal Bishop for which he had been long quarrelling with the Bishop of Constantinople And however they slander Calvin and Luther we might with much more reason and truth object what kind of creatures multitudes of their Popes have been whom they own as Heads of their Church even such monsters of men for all manner of impiety filthiness and cruelty as the world hath scarce ever heard of the like And this we have from those of their own Church who have written their Lives and their greatest Champions such as Bellarmine and Baronius cannot deny it L. But it s further objected against Calvin and Luther and the first Reformers that they never wrought miracles to shew they had a commission from God T. Our first Reformers never pretended to bring in any new Religion only they cast out Popish Innovations which had corrupted and defaced it and for this they needed no extraordinary commission from heaven nor any miracles to warrant the same For they preached no other but the same old Religion which was taught by Christ and his Apostles and was abundantly confirmed by the miracles which they wrought long ago And with us the Reformation was begun and carried on in a just and regular manner by our Rulers in Church and State who had full authority to make the same even as the Kings and High-Priests of old had to reform any abuses and corruptions which at any time were crept into the Iewish Church And as these needed no new commission from Heaven no new miracles to authorize them to rectifie disorders and reform the Church according to the rules of Moses's Law no more did our Reformers need them for the removing of those errors and superstitions which had by degrees been brought in contrary to our Saviours Gospel L. I see no reason indeed why miracles should be expected from them who only cast out new inventions and keep fast to the old Christian Religion which hath already been confirmed by so many and great miracles But yet my Author says that in their Church they have had miracles wrought in all ages such as curing the blind and deaf raising the dead and casting out of Devils which he accounts to make mightily for the honour of their Saints and of the Church to which they belong T. In the Primitive times indeed such miracles were wrought for proving of the Christian Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and all that he taught most certainly true and this Doctrine so confirmed is the Religion which we at this day do openly profess in our Church But then I utterly deny that ever such miracles were wrought to prove the truth of Popish Doctrins properly so called as of Transubstantiation Pargatory Invocation of Saints c. for these were never taught by Christ or his Apostles and therefore could not receive confirmation from the miracles of their working As to any that are pretended to be done in the Church of Rome for the attesting of these they are meer cheats and forgeries or lying wonders agreeable to the nature of those false Doctrines which they are designed to confirm And though your Author talks of healing the sick raising the dead c. I can hear of no such thing done by any of them amongst us whatever they may pretend to in Popish Countries where it s an easie matter for cunning Priests to impose upon credulous people But were indeed any such miracles wrought for the proof of Popish Doctrines one would think they should be done amongst those they call Hereticks who stand in need of such arguments for their conviction rather than amongst their own people who need them not Great Stories they often tell of their casting out of Devils and for this knack are their Priests mightily magnified by their deluded followers and prefer'd before the Ministers of our Church who pretend to no such matter But that this is a gross cheat seems plain enough from hence that what their Priests pretend to in this kind for all that ever I could
Romish Church But for the Papist the happy man that has had the good luck to hit into this true Church they have so many tricks and quirks to secure him in his life at his death and after it that let his faults be what they will it s very strange if he miss of Heaven at least after he has taken Purgatory in his way if he was very poor for rich men may easily escape that too or get soon out of it if they 'l follow the Priests directions Such fine devices they have to give men a lift to Heaven without putting them to the trouble of walking in that narrow way of serious holiness which alone leads thither So that I cannot but say and without any prejudice or partiality I speak it notwithstanding all that noise and talk of holiness in the Church of Rome nothing but Holy Mother Church Holy Father the Pope Holy Altars Holy Images Holy Water Holy Crosses Beads Agnus Dei's Reliques and a thousand holy trinkets more yet I think there is as little true holiness of life and conversation to be found amongst them as in any Church of the world Yea we shall often find that when those of that way are told of the holy Lives of many Protestants or are themselves exhorted to strictness and piety of life as that wherein true Religion chiefly consists they will be ready presently to make a puff at it as if this was of no value in comparison of being of the true Church of the infallible Catholick Church as they fondly call their own Sect as if being in a good Church would secure a bad man when we are so plainly taught that without holiness no man shall see God let him be of what Church he will Wherefore to conclude this remember that since in the Church of England the holy Gospel is most purely taught and the holy Sacraments duly administred according to our Saviours own institution and the members of it are neither required to profess any falshood or practise any evil in order to their communion with it but on the contrary are most strictly enjoyned to be holy in all their conversation and do here enjoy all manner of helps and advantages thereto therefore I say this is such an Holy Church as that you may and ought to hold communion with it Proceed we now to the following Marks of the true Church CHAP. III. Of the third mark of the true Church that it's Catholick L. THE next mark he lays down of the true Church is that its Catholick And here they make great boasting and triumphing for they say none else call themselves Catholicks but they nor as they pretend have any reason so to do since they tell of vast numbers belonging to their Church in all places of the world far and near and how they convert Heathens whilst Protestants they say are but a little handful here and there in corners amongst a multitude of Catholicks T. As to what they call themselves it matters little for be sure they 'l give themselves good words Neither is it true that none but they lay claim to that name for we of this Church do esteem our selves true Catholick Christians as professing the ancient Catholick faith of Christ and so do frequently stile both our selves and our Doctrine and with good reason as I doubt not to demonstrate As to their great numbers compared to other Christians suppose what they alledge were true as it is most false yet is this no sufficient argument of their being true Catholicks for that 's to be judged by the truth of their Doctrines and not by the number of Professors For if we should at this rate go to the Poll and judg of truth by most votes then might the Mahometans carry it from Christians And heretofore the number of the Arrians was said to be greater than of the Orthodox But that 's to be accounted a true part of the Catholick Church which professes the Catholick faith even the same Christian Religion which all good Christians in all ages former as well as latter and of all Nations have ever constantly profest And by this rule you will find that the Church of England is a most true and sound part of the Catholick Church as professing this same Christian faith contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Here you may remember what I have before told you that it is most vain and unreasonable for any one particular Church to stile her self the whole Catholick Church as if there were no Christians in the world but themselves And yet in this sense doth the Church of Rome stile her self Catholick the absurdity of which I have before shewed And there needs nothing more to manifest it than this single consideration that there are thousands and millions of Christians in several parts of the world who neither now do nor ever did own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome which is the great fundamental article of their faith to pass by all others at present and yet all these whilst they embrace the whole Christian Doctrine taught in the holy Scriptures are to be lookt on as true Catholick Christians though they do not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar upon earth invested with Supremacy over all Christian Churches for this is a Doctrine which our Saviour never taught his Disciples Now without owning this false Doctrine a man cannot be of the Church of Rome according to the Decrees of their Popes and Councils and yet without this I say a man may receive the whole Christian Religion as it was delivered by Christ and his Apostles and therefore he may be a true Catholick Christian though he be not of the Romish Church nor yields subjection to it L. This seems to me very plain and clear T. But it will appear yet more plain if you consider what is a most certain truth that there can be no manner of good evidence given that the Church of Christ for some hundred years after our blessed Saviours time did ever receive this Doctrine of the Popes Supremacy or his Infallibility Nay our learned men assert that there is not so much as any one Christian Writer for at least three hundred years after that time some say four or five that did ever so much as teach any such strange Doctrine as this How then I beseech you can the owning of it now be necessary to make a man a Catholick when the whole Catholick Church for some ages after its first Plantation was a meer stranger to it L. I think there is no appearance of reason for it T. To this add that the whole Greek which was much larger than the Romish before it was over-run by the Turks ever disown'd these same new opinions of the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility with many others of the same stamp neither do they generally embrace them to this day though sometimes the Romanists have used all manner of arts and devices
I am ashamed to take notice of it If he had infer'd the quite contrary that therefore they must not be used the reason had been every whit as good that is stark naught But what will not men devise when they are put to their shifts L. I wonder what makes them so stiff in a practice so contrary to Reason Scripture and the usage of the Primitive Church T. It is not very easie to give the reason since some amongst themselves seem ashamed of it and many of their Bishops in the Council of Trent desired to have publick Prayers in a known Tongue but it would not be granted The reason of which as of many other corruptions being still continued seems to be partly from their fear that if they should make one alteration a great many more would follow for if they own themselves to have erred in one thing why not in more and partly to encrease the peoples admiration of the Priest and his Prayers for the less they understand the more prone they are to admire And lastly perhaps there may be this peculiar reason for it that hereby the people may more easily be perswaded of the efficacy of the Priests words for the working that prodigious miracle of Transubstantiation For if they should hear him speak only plain words in their own mother-tongue they could hardly think them of force enough to work such a mighty change whereas in hard words there may be some hidden virtue which they are not aware of But let us go on to what follows CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them L. MY Author next pleads for the custom of confessing sins to the Priest on account of that power which Christ hath given him to absolve and forgive sins Joh. 20. 23. T. As to this matter of Confession of sins in order to absolution in brief I would have you consider that anciently when Church discipline was strictly observed they who had been guilty of notorious scandalous crimes were obliged to make satisfaction to the Church by a publick penitent confession of them and when they had given sufficient evidence of their repentance by submitting to such penance as was imposed on them they were then publickly absolved and received into the communion of the Church from which they were before cast out And whilst the Bishop or Priest did herein proceed according to the rules of the Gospel then what they remitted on earth would be remitted in heaven c. according to Ioh. 20. 23. But by degrees through the corruption of the times and the general loosness of mens manners this publick confession was in a great measure laid aside and instead of it only a private confession to the Priest required and absolution commonly granted upon very easie terms and this is that which is now so zealously pleaded for by those of the Romish Church As to the former our Church highly approves of it as a godly discipline and sometimes it is at this day practised amongst us But as to private confessions there is no absolute necessity of them at all times For when our sins have been private such as have given no offence to the Church or our Neighbours but only to Almighty God here it may suffice that we humbly confess them to God himself speedily forsaking the same and then shall we be sure to find mercy through our Blessed Saviour for so God hath promised in his holy word without requiring us to confess them to men also L. But they commonly urge that of St. Jim 5. 16. Confess your fauâ—â—s one to another c. T. This is indeed very requisite when men have given offence one to another but here is no mention of a Priest to whom this confession ought to be made Or suppose that he is here chiefly intended yet is this confession no further needful than as may give evidence of a sincere repentace and may serve to procure the Priests prayers and directions or sometimes absolution But to this end it 's no way necessary for a man at all times to confess all his private faults L. Yes says my Author we must confess our sins to the Priest that he may judg of them and thereupon absolve the penitent For as Treasons says he committed against the Prince are tried by his Officers so men are to present themselves to the Priest as to a Tribunal that upon confession they may receive forgiveness which the Priest grants as Christs Lieutenant or Deputy T. There is no likeness in the case Princes are but finite creatures and cannot attend to the trial of all causes in their own persons and therefore they employ their Officers who are to hear them and to determine according to Law But Almighty God is himself present every where and always ready to receive the humble confessions of a penitent sinner and upon his sincere repentance will for Christs sake receive him to favour whilst neither Priest nor any mortal man whatsoever may be privy either to his faults or to his confession of them And yet to keep to his similitude as men are not bound to present themselves before the Kings Officers for a trial but when the King by his Law requires it no more are people bound to make confession to the Priest further than God by his word enjoyns it but he has no where enjoyn'd the confession of all our private faults And as the Kings Judges are to pronounce sentence according to Law so must the Priest according to the rules of the Gospel otherwise it is unjust and of no sorce This then I grant that so far as God hath appointed Ministers as his Officers to take notice of the crimes of the people and to pass sentence upon them so far the people are bound to apply themselves to their Ministers to follow their directions and submit to their sentence which if it be just God himself will confirm it Thus when any man is guilty of notorious crimes and by no admonitions will be reclaim'd then may the Minister justly proceed to Excommunicate such an obstinate offender from the society and priviledges of the Christian Church and what he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven that is God approves of this sentence and will ratifie and confirm it so that if this man continue thus impenitent in his wickedness God will shut him out from the Kingdom of Heaven hereafter whom his Ministers have justly cast out of the Church here But if this scandalous sinner shall come in and acknowledg his offences and seriously profess his repentance and give sufficient evidence of the truth of it then hath the Minister whether Bishop or Priest power to absolve him to release him from the censures of the Church and receive him again into communion and may also upon the truth of this his repentance assure him of and declare to him the remission of his sins from God himself who hath given to his Ministers
power to that purpose And this their sentence shall also be ratified in Heaven God through his Son Jesus will be reconciled to this sincere penitent and if he persevere in well-doing will at length receive him into glory who is now admitted into his Church L. All this seems plain and reasonable but by your discourse I perceive you judg there is no necessity of confessing private sins in order to their being forgiven T. There is no need of it since I say God no where requires it but hath promised pardon on condition of true repentance which repentance may be very sincere without any such confession L. But is it not very profitable for people to unburden their consciences to the Minister that they may receive direction and comfort from him T. Exceeding profitable no doubt it is and sometimes very needful especially when they are disturbed with doubts and fears or assaulted by strong temptations of one sort or other In such cases we do earnestly exhort them to apply themselves to the Minister as to their Spiritual Physician with whom they ought freely to consult and to lay open their case to him so far as is necessary in order to their ease and cure For by this means he is better able to give them particular directions for the overcoming of those temptations and corruptions which they are most afflicted with He may also upon the hearing of their case give them his judgment concerning the state of their souls which may be of great use to such whose weakness or melancholy may cause them to think much worse of themselves than they deserve Moreover upon their serious credible profession of repentance the Minister according to the power he has received from God may as I have said declare and pronounce to them the absolution and remission of their sins which may yield much ease to the penitent considering the authority as well as the judgment and faithfulness of the Minister For which reason in the Exhortation before the Communion there is advice given to such as cannot by their own private endeavours quiet their consciences that they would come to their Ministers for assistance But for those who can well do it we lay no necessity upon them to make such application much less do we oblige them to make a particular confession of their faults since God by his Gospel as a kind of instrument pardons the truly penitent though this pardon be not always pronounced by the Priest to that particular person who seeks for the same L. Some argue confession to the Priest to be a duty from the peoples confessing their sins to St. John Baptist when they came to be baptized of him T. This is very little to the purpose since it was rather a publick than private confession which the people then made and that in order to their receiving of Baptism from St. Iohn whereby they were in a solemn manner devoted to newness of life and therefore very requisite it was that they should now acknowledg and renounce their former evil courses as we would expect the same from a Turk or Iew before we admit him to Christian Baptism But doth it thence follow that all Christian people must confess all the faults they can remember to the Priest that he may absolve them from the same before they come to the Communion L. Not in the least so far as I can judg St. Paul only says Let a man examine himself and so let him eat c. not enjoyning him to go to confession to a Priest also But before we leave this pray will you satisfie me a little further about the Priests absolving of men or forgiving their sins which I hear Papists talk much of and commonly they make use of the Text before mention'd Joh. 20. 23. and seem to boast of this as a priviledg peculiar to their Priests T. Very forward they are to boast of priviledges for which they have no warrant But as to the present case that which is granted to the Ministers of Christ whether from that or any the like Text seems plainly to be this That whilst in their publick preaching or in Church-censures or other private application to particular persons they proceed according to the rules of the Gospel their sentence shall be ratified and made good in heaven as I have before in part explained to you and shall not grudge to do it again When the Ministers of the Gospel in publishing of it do denounce and threaten eternal misery to Infidels and impenitent sinners and do promise pardon and salvation to penitent believers this their sentence shall be confirmed in heaven by Christ himself for according to this rule will he proceed at the last day Or when in the exercise of Discipline they cast out the stubborn offender whilst he remains such he is also out of the Divine favour but as upon his profession of repentance the Minister absolves him and receives him into the bosom of the Church so if he be sincere in this profession God becomes reconciled to him and receives him again into favour Thus also when any man that is burdened in conscience though he lye not under the censures of the Church shall apply himself to the Minister and open his case to him acquainting him so far as is needful with those particular crimes that lye most heavy upon him and doth profess himself sincerely penitent for the same the Minister then may on condition of his sincerity in the name of God pronounce to him the pardon and forgiveness of them So that the Ministers power of binding and loosing consists chiefly in this that he with authority as a Minister of Christ declares and pronounces pardon to some and threatens wrath to others as the Gospel directs and warrants him and accordingly some he shuts out of the Church some he receives into it either by Baptism or by absolution from Church-censures and whilst Ministers keep to their rule in these cases what they bind or loose on earth shall be bound or loosed in heaven And thus they can only forgive sins by pronouncing forgiveness from God on condition of mens true repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus which condition is commonly exprest and always understood in their granting absolution to the penitent This much is own'd and daily practised in our Church but to more than this we pretend not If Popish Priests claim more let them make good their claim as they are able by Gods holy word they cannot do it nor by any solid and good reason Nay some of their own Writers seem to challenge no more than what I have allow'd for they say that the Priests under the Gospel pardon sin as those under the Law cleansed men from Leprosie and how was that but by pronouncing him to be clean who upon trial was found so according to the rules in that case laid down in the Laws But if the Priest mistook in his judgment this would not make the Leper
yea as an affront for any man to employ some Courtier for that purpose And in our Case it 's very unreasonable since we are fully assured that our Blessed Saviour knows our wants and desires and is both able and willing to assist us but as I have said we have no such assurance that this or that Saint hath any knowledge of us and our affairs or can afford us help and relief L. I see no manner of reason why we should make use of any other Mediators beside the Lord Iesus who alone is able to save to the uttermost all that come to God by him T. But beside all this however they pretend that they only pray to Saints to pray to God for them it is most evident that they do make some such Addresses to Saints especially to the Blessed Virgin as do import much more even such as are proper only to be used to Almighty God himself For instance they devote themselves to her Service and Honour resign themselves to her will and pleasure commend themselves and their affairs to her protection and guidance make Vows to her in their distress offer thanks and praise to her for their deliverance beg her assistance in all difficulties and dangers particularly at their last hour All this with much more to the same purpose frequently used in their devotions to her speaks somewhat more surely than to desire her barely to intercede for them Yea those expressions which may be thus interpreted are yet delivered in such a manner without any mention of her interceding that whatever notion the more knowing and learned may have yet most likely it is that common people take the words as they sound and seek assistance from her as they do from Almighty God and our Saviour And no wonder when their supplications are made to her as to the Queen of Heaven their Lady and Governess one who hath a mighty power in Heaven and Earth and is the very mother of Mercy and Pity What does all this serve for but to make her a kind of Goddess one invested with Divine Power and Glory This is done especially in that they call our Ladies Psalter wherein is applied to her all or most of that which is ascribed to God himself in the Book of Psalms Nay as is yet to be seen in some of their old Missals they give her still the power of a Mother over her Son in Heaven and desire her to command him to do this and that by virtue of that her power which one of their Writers excuses as a kind of Religious dalliance but others more modest and ingenuous have found fault with these things and acknowledge they ought to be reformed yea they have plainly exprest their fears that the common people amongst them do worship Saints and Angels in much-what the same manner as the Heathens of old did their Daemons and Heroes and inferiour Deities having particular Saints for particular cases and turns as the Heathens had their several Deities for several places and purposes Nor is it any wonder if the poor people give that worship to these which is due to God alone when their Learned men make such nice distinctions betwixt them as are not easie to be understood or remembred whilst they talk of Worship superiour and inferiour relative subordinate and the like To God they grant belongs the highest fort of Worship which they call Latria then to Angels and Saints they allow a lower kind which they call Dulia and to the Blessed Virgin Mary somewhat betwixt both which they call Hyper-dulia which they say is but little below what is to be given to God himself Now what subtil Doctor of them all can fix the just bounds and terms betwixt these Or if he could yet how easie is it for the people to mistake and transgress those bounds giving perhaps to a common Saint what is due to the Blessed Virgin and to her what belongs to God alone At best then the people are in great danger of Idolatry and utterly inexcusable are their Leaders who betray them into this danger L. And yet my Author very severely inveighs against us Protestants as having no good and sound belief because we pay not due honour and reverence to the Saints especially for that we will not pray to the Virgin-Mother whose authority he says doubtless must needs be very great T. But in the mean time what good authority has he for that which he asserts with so much confidence The Holy Scripture is utterly silent in this matter and so are the most Ancient Writers in the Christian Church They speak not one word of her Authority in Heaven nor of any Worship to be given her by those on Earth Nay when this Superstition began first to creep in amongst some silly Women one of those Writers about Four hundred years after our Saviour declaims against it and utterly disallows it Judge therefore what a wise and charitable censure this is that we Protestants have no good belief because forsooth we do not pray to the Blessed Virgin What! is our Belief not good because it is not strong enough to give credit to all the idle ridiculous stories which their fabulous Legends tell of her or any other Saint This it 's confest we cannot do but yet we readily believe all that the Holy Scriptures or any good and credible Authors relate And what a malicious slander is it that we give her no Honour Since though we do not worship her as a Goddess or the Queen of Heaven and the Mother of Mercy yet we give her all that honour which either God's Word requires or the Ancient Christians gave According to her own prediction and the Language of the Angel we do most justly stile her Blessed among Women Her name is precious and honourable and her memory sacred amongst us We bless God for the Graces he bestowed on her and most gratefully commemorate his Mercy to her in advancing her to that singular honour of being the Virgin-Mother of the ever-blessed Jesus the Son of God and Saviour of Mankind Yet all this while according to her own example Our souls do magnify the Lord and our spirit rejoyceth in God our Saviour And to do otherwise to give Divine Honour to any creature were to correct the Magnificat as we use to speak yea directly to contradict it Nay may I not add that such worshippers do offer the highest affront and dishonour to the Blessed Virgin whilst they imagine she can be well pleased with their Adorations and Prayers and with such fulsom flatteries and praises as their Devotions to her are commonly stuffed with As if now in Heaven she had lost all that humility which when on Earth made her so esteemed of God and Men. Certainly if we can guess any thing of the temper of Saints in Glory by what they were here in the World such Worship and Invocation must needs be very displeasing to them if they have any knowledge of
what 's done here below What haste did St. Peter make to rectify Cornelius's mistake when he fell down at his feet He presently bade him stand up telling him that he himself was a Man So St. Paul and St. Barnabas when the people took them for gods and would have worshipped them accordingly they rent their Clothes for indignation and utterly forbad them calling out to them to worship the true and living God as the Angel also did to St. Iohn saying to him I am thy fellow servant worship God Rev. 22. 8 9. And doubtless they are still as zealously concerned for the honour of God as ever they were and can take no pleasure in having his Prerogative any way encroacht upon for their sakes Nor therefore can they be displeased with us for not offering up our prayers or praises to them out of a just and pious fear of robbing God and Christ of their due by giving their Glory to another Displeased I say they cannot be whilst we do herein follow their directions and imitate their example in worshipping God alone through Christ the Mediator For this was their practice when on Earth and this is still their employment in Heaven and this we find required in almost a Thousand places in those Holy Books which the Spirit of God enabled them to write for the guidance of his Church in all following Ages There we find our Blessed Saviour himself teaching us to pray to Our Father which is in Heaven but not a syllable of making any Prayers to his Mother And would he omit any thing that was needful So the Apostles direct us to pray to God continually and in every thing to give him thanks doing all in the name of Jesus Christ but not one word said of praying to Angel or Saint upon any account whatever Nor do they that I remember in all their Writings make the least mention of the Blessed Virgin Mary after our Saviours Ascension except in the first of the Acts where it 's only said that she was together with the rest of the Disciples Not one short prayer do we find any where put up to her no injunction given to any Christian Church in the Epistles sent to them concerning their worship and adoration of her no nor in any Christian Writer for some ages after Whereas we now find the Popish Books of devotion full of such nauseous stuff Yet these are the men who cry up Antiquity and pretend to keep so close to Apostolical tradition and tell us that their Church holds nothing but what this age took from the last and that from the other before it till at length you come to the Apostles themselves but the present instance with many others of like nature sufficiently shews the vanity and falshood of this pretence L. To my apprehension it plainly does and I am apt to think another instance to that purpose may be given in what my Author next mentions viz. concerning Images c. CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images T. PRAY what says he concerning Images L. He says that the Images and Reliques of Saints are honourable in regard of the Saints to whom they have relation and in regard of God himself since he makes use of them for instruments of his miracles And he brings in his Scholar telling how it vext him to the heart to hear any speak ill of the Images of Christ crucified T. Much rather may it grieve the heart of any good Christian to consider how by the abuse of these Images the great God and our Blessed Saviour are highly dishonoured Though your Author is so cunning as to say nothing of any pictures of God yet such there are among them and of the Sacred Trinity and this vindicated by some of their ablest Writers though most directly contrary to Gods express command by Moses and the Prophets as we find Deut. 4. 15 16. Isa. 40. 18. The reason of which commands does still remain as forcible as ever and will do so to the end of the world Since it then was and ever will be an infinite disparagement and lessening to the glory of Gods incomprehensible Majesty to go about to make any picture or resemblance of him insomuch that some of the wiser Heathens have declared against it As to the Images he mentions viz. of Saints together with their Reliques it 's a fine smooth word he uses when he says they are honourable if by this he meant no more than such an honour or respect as we use in civility to give to the picture of a friend or to somewhat he has left us in remembrance we should comply with him supposing these to be truly the Pictures and Reliques of those Saints whose names they bear yea whether true or false we should not much dispute it But it 's plain by the arguments they use and by the practice of their Church that it is a Religious and not meerly a civil honour which they plead for and give to Images even such an honour as God himself in his Holy Word hath expresly forbid L. It seems so indeed for though he makes use of the comparison which you have now mention'd yet his other arguments do aim at much more For he urges the example of Moses putting off his shoos when God appear'd to him because the ground was holy Exod. 3. And he quotes the words of the Psalmist as he renders them That they should worship the Ark which is called Gods footstool Psal. 99. 5. T. This plainly shews what that honour is which they would have done to Images and it shews also that their cause is very weak and bad which has no better arguments to support it What because Moses at Gods command put off his shoos in that place which was made holy for the time by Gods glorious appearance there must we therefore against Gods express command bow down to Images in which there is no holiness nor any evidence of the Divine presence Or are they of the old Heathenish opinion that by consecration of an Image there is some Divine virtue convey'd to it that the Deity takes up his residence there and does thence bestow favours upon his worshippers This one would think by their practice as I shall after shew As to the Psalmists words they command us not to worship the Ark as he falsly reads it but at or before the Ark Exalt the Lord our God and worship at his footstool that is worship God at or before the Ark where in a more peculiar manner he manifested himself And dare they ascribe this to their Images So v. 9. of that Psalm Worship at his holy hill and so are these places rendred by some Commentators of their own Church You see then what they plead for viz. a worship of the Images themselves with Religious worship for this it is that the arguments they make use of tend to if they are of any force But the practice of their Church is the best interpreter of their
from the corruptions of Popery the Blessed Fruits whereof we do at this day enjoy and hope we shall still continue so to do through the same Divine Grace and favour which first bestowed this mercy upon us though most unworthy of the same But leave we this shadow of an Argument and pass to his third L. Pray do so T. It is this That Church is only to be heard which â—â—s all the marks of a true Church but the Roman Câ—urch has them and no other therefore she only is to be â—â—ard These marks as he goes on are Antiquity Miracles Holiness of Life and Doctrine Universality Uâ—â—ty Succession of Bishops from the Apostles these he calls Infallible Marks of the true Church which belong to none but that of Rome L. These marks of the Church or most of them I do well remember you spoke largely to in the beginning of our â—â—st conference and from what you have there said I 〈◊〉 furnished with a sufficient Answer to this Argument viz. that the Church of Rome as it is now corrupted with â—hose Doctrines wherein Popery consists such as the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility Purgatory Transubstantiation c. it cannot truly plead these marks he lays down For these Popish Doctrines are not of the same Antiquity with pure Christianity there never were any true Miracles wrought to confirm them they are not Holy in themselves nor do tend to promote Holiness of Life but rather the contrary they are not nor ever were Universally received by all Christian Churches nor is there much Unity amongst themselves in their explication of them though if there were this signifies nothing as being but the Unity of a Sect within it self and though their Bishops may live in the same City that the Apostles once did yet they did not receive these Doctrines from the Apostles but have introduced them since some at one time some at another and therefore in respect of Doctrine they are not the Apostles Successors nor are to be hearkned to as such T. What you alledge is most undeniably true And let me further add that suppose the Church of Rome were now as pure in its Doctrine and Worship as in the very days of the Apostles it was so that these marks did really belong to it yet this is no good Argument that we must all therefore be of the Church of Rome if ever we hope to be saved since many other Churches might plead the same even all that received the Christian Religion in the same purity and simplicity whose Members therefore might have as good grounds to hope for Salvation But when we further consider how that Church has degenerated from its Primitive purity beside that it has no dominion over us there is still much less reason that we should for the embracing of her Communion desert our own Church of England which is a most sound part of the Catholick Church as any this day in Christendom To her agree all the marks of a true Church as I have formerly shewn She hath these mention'd by this Author Antiquity c. For the Doctrines of our Church are as old as the times of our Saviour and his Apostles This is that true Christian Doctrine which was confirmed by all those Miracles which are recorded in the New-Testament These Doctrines are all Holy as well as True and have a natural tendency to make men Holy and Good These are Universally received by all Christian Churches that now are or ever were in the World being the very same you find summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Thus are we at Unity with the truly Catholick Church and thus whilst our Ministers Preach the very same Doctrines use the same Worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did they are in that respect truly their Successors Yea beside this those Bishops of our Church whom God made use of for the Reformation of it did receive their Orders from those who were of the Church of Rome so that if their Ordination be valid so is ours if they have a succession from the Apostles so have we To say nothing of what is commonly related in History that some of the Apostles or Apostolical men sent by them first planted Christianity in these parts from which time it was never utterly rooted out But I think I need add nothing more on this Head having already said so much in another place L. No Sir but rather proceed to the fourth Argument T. It is this That Church is to be heard which takes the narrow way that leads to Life Matt. 7. but the Roman Church takes it and therefore she is to be heard And this he proves because she takes as he says not only the way of Gods commands but also the narrow way of Christs Counsels What say you to this L. Even the same in effect that you lately said upon the former Argument viz. that supposing it to be true that the Church of Rome does take this narrow way yet it is not she alone that takes it and therefore there is no necessity that I should renounce all other Churches for Communion with her I am sure there is no reason why I should on this account forsake our own Church wherein the precepts of Christ are most plainly taught and strictly urged upon the people and in the very same way to Heaven are we dayly exhorted to walk in which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles have led us by their Example as well as Doctrine even the way of Piety Righteousness and serious Holiness T. Your Answer is solid and true L. But I have yet somewhat more to say against his Argument and do directly deny that their Church takes the same way to Salvation in all things which our Saviour hath proposed in his Gospel For whatever he talks of their following not only his Commands but his Counsels yet sure I am that their Church requires many things to be believed and done in order to Salvation which our Blessed Saviour never commanded counsel'd or taught and therefore in these things they do not take the way of the Gospel but one of their own devising For in the Gospel we no where find that a Man cannot be saved except he acknowledge the Popes Supremacy believe Transubstantiation worship Images c. These things I think are directly contrary to the Doctrines and Precepts of the Gospel and yet these with many more of like nature are required in the Roman Church with all strictness imaginable in doing of which she takes not the way of the Gospel nor therefore in this ought she to be heard T. Most certainly she ought not But you have all the reason in the World to remain fixed in Communion with your own Church which requires nothing to be believed or practised as of necessity to Salvation but what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures Herein following the direction which our Saviour gave to his Apostles and in them to their Successors Matt. 28. ult that they should
bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
their condition shall be let us leave to the just Judge of all men remembring the Apostles saying Not he who commendeth himself is approved but he whom the Lord commendeth How far the ill education and ignorance of any of them may serve to excuse or lessen their faults it becomes not us to determine But as to our selves we may safely assert that for us to go against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences in professing their Errors and joyning in their corrupt Worship would be a piece of inexcusable and damnable wickedness Whereas on the other hand we may rest fully satisfied and assured that if we sincerely believe the Holy Gospel which is at this day purely and plainly taught in our Church and live in strict and stedfast obedience to the precepts of it which are dayly inculcated upon us we shall most certainly obtain that Eternal Salvation which in this Gospel is promised to all such obedient Believers Of this we are as sure as that God is true for Heaven and Earth shall sooner fail than one tittle of his Holy Word on which we depend L. Whilst we depend on this Word certainly we shall never be deceived or disappointed But methinks it 's very bold Language and little better than Blasphemy with which my Author concludes his Book when he says that his Roman Catholicks may at the hour of death with confidence use those words of an Ancient Writer O Lord if it be Error which we have believed we are deceived by thee for thou hast confirmed these things to us by such signs and prodigies as could not be done but by thee with more to that purpose T. This can only with truth be spoken concerning the Christian Religion to which God bare witness by mighty Signs and Wonders But to apply it to the false Doctrines of Popery is indeed no better than Blasphemy For neither our Saviour or his Apostles ever taught these Doctrines nor did God ever work a Miracle for the confirming of them L. Surely it would argue more modesty to suspect the weakness of their own judgment and better to examine their Cause rather than to charge God himself with deceiving them if they are deceived T. Very true but you know the Proverb None so bold as those that are blind otherwise certainly they have reason enough to suspect that Cause to be very weak which is supported by no better Arguments than these which your Author hath produced who yet no doubt hath given us the best he could devise of his own head or meet with in their Writers CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole L. SIR I am now come to the end of my little Book and ought therefore to put an end to the trouble I have given you yet before we part will you please to satisfy me in one thing of which I find no mention in my Author T. I shall willingly when I hear what it is L. 'T is concerning the number of Sacraments for Papists charge it as a great defect upon our Church that we have but two whilst they say they have seven T. How little reason there is for this Charge will soon appear if you consider that as to four of these five which the Papists pretend to have more than we though we give them not the name of Sacraments yet we have the things themselves And as to the fifth there is not the least reason that we should receive or they retain it For your fuller satisfaction I shall name them to you and in a few words make good what I have said L. Pray will you please to do it and I shall trouble you with no more questions hereafter T. To the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper which both we and they receive they do further add Confirmation Holy Orders Marriage Penance and extreme Unction Now as to the name of Sacrament it 's a vain thing to dispute about words till we are agreed of the sense and meaning of them For if by Sacrament they mean any sacred rite or usage that may signify some grace or some good duty or by way of allusion may serve to some good purpose in Religion then instead of Seven they may perhaps reckon Seventeen Sacraments or many more And in this large and looser sense the Ancients commonly made use of the word giving the name of Sacrament to many things relating to Religion which are any way mystical or significant yea frequently they call our Religion it self a Sacrament or Mystery And if they of the Church of Rome will use the word in this large sense and so stile the several things now mentioned Sacraments let them enjoy their liberty I think it 's not worth contending about Only let them not say that we despise the things themselves because we think it not so fit to give them this name For by a Sacrament we understand as it 's exprest in our Church-Catechism an outward sign of an inward spiritual grace given unto us ordained by Christ as a means whereby we receive the same Grace and a pledge to assure us thereof Now in this sense we say that only Baptism and the Lords-Supper are properly to be called Sacraments being ordained by Christ's express command as a way and means for the bestowing of his Grace upon all that duly partake of them These are as it were the Seals of the Covenant of Grace as Divines use to stile them which all Christians if they have opportunity are obliged to make use of For hereby we do in a solemn manner profess our selves to be Christ's Disciples and engage our selves to walk in all holy obedience to his Laws and so make a Covenant with him and upon our sincerity herein we receive Grace from God to enable us for our duty and have an assurance of his favour and of all the blessings that flow from it in and through Jesus Christ. Thus hath our Lord plainly ordain'd that all who believe in him should be Baptized with Water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost for the profession of our faith in him and for the receiving the remission of our Sins with spiritual Regeneration Thus did he institute the holy Communion commanding all Christians to celebrate the same in remembrance of him for a commemoration of his death till his second coming and hereby we partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for the refreshing and strengthning of our Souls Plainly then you see how these two Sacraments were ordained by Christ himself for the use of all Christians to be as it were the badges of their profession that hereby they might solemnly testify their consent to the Covenant of Grace and at the same time may receive the blessings of this Covenant But now this cannot be said of those other things which the Papists call Sacraments how useful soever any of them may be in other respects For though