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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30189	An answer to two treatises of Mr. Iohn Can, the leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam the former called, A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, proved by the Nonconformists principles : the other, A stay against straying : wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson, he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the ministers of the Church of England ... / by the late learned, laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ, John Ball.	Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.	1642 (1642)	Wing B558; ESTC R3127	281,779	264

our Baptisme which followeth not From Idols essentially men ought to separate by the example of the z 2 Chron. 11.13.10 Levites and the two tribes that made separation from the Calves of Jeroboam From Idols of participation and occasion men ought to keepe their owne selves pure but not to separate by the ensample of the a 2 Reg. 16.21 godly who separated not from the Temple of God for Damascus Altar there and from the b 1 Reg. 22.43 Church because of her high places It is objected once more against us If our signe of the Crosse be an Idoll then our Ministers that doe make it be Idolaters and our Church Idolatrous also This followes not neither For denomination being from the forme and the crosse not being formally an Idoll amongst us but materially I speake in comparison of the Popish Crosse in regard whereof we may be said to use that which is an Idoll but we doe not use it idolatrously therefore as Dr Fulke c Dr. Fulk against Greg. Mart. cap. 3 sect 20. concludes of the Lutherans for having Images in their Churches the same must be said of all those Protestants that will retaine crosses they sinne against the two first Commandements through Idolothisme not directly through Idolatry and therefore they may not be tearmed Idolaters Howbeit by way of reduction Idolothisme is in some sort guilty of Idolatry as sheweth the d 1 Cor. 10.34 Apostle who in stead of saying Flie from Idolothisme saith Flie from Idolatry This Idolatry by reduction what is it els but Idolatry by participation as doth appeare by the 18.20 and 24. verses following But this participation is not in our Crosse will our opposits say who first least haply they should mistake us we desire to recount the ancient e Pet. Martyr in 1 Cor. 10.16 distinction Plus est communio quàm participatio nam ad hanc satis est partem habere sed ad illam requiritur ut prorsus uniamur atque totum percipiamus quod nobis proponitur This being premised that wee charge the Crosse not with a totall communion but with a f Things ordained by God must have reverence though they be but creatures as things that be sacred by the word ordinance of God But adoration they must not have Aug. de doct Christ lib. 3. cap. 9. Qui veneratur utile signum divinitus institutum cujus vim significationemque intelligit non hoc veneratur quod videtur sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt But Images are signes unprofitable to serve God with and dangerous And since the Law of God expresly and strictly chargeth us not so much as to bow our bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in Heaven or Earth which is made with hands it can neither be Christian nor catholique to doe it See Bilson Christ subject part pag. 391. 534. Theodoret. Dial. 2. useth the word Adoration for an externall regard and reverence Veneration is a word that Augustine foundeth all the signes sacraments of the old and new Testament Adoration he reserveth to God onely Aug. de docr Christ lib. 3. cap. 9. participation in part onely we doe thus bring in our evidence against him Thus Mr Parker Now consider how many wayes you falsifie his testimony and whether you did it willingly or no let your conscience judge Mr Parker saith The Crosse is an Idoll materially but not formally that is amongst the Papists it is an Idoll essentially and so the use of the Crosse is the use of that which is an Idoll but not used idolatrously amongst us You make him to say because we must flie from Idols therefore wee cannot communicate in the worship of God where the Crosse is used without sinne He saith Men must keepe themselves pure from Idolothites and not partake in the use of them but not separate from the Church or ordinances of grace because such rites or ceremonies are used in the administration you cleane contrary make him to say That men cannot communicate in the ordinances or worship God in that societie where such things are practised but of necessitie they must communicate in the sinne He teacheth That he that useth the Idolothite or materiall Idoll is not an Idolater because he doth not use it idolatrously but you make the Nonconformists to say that it is an idolatrous worship and that it defileth the true worship of God to all that are present Mr Parker extendeth the guilt of participation in part onely to him that useth the Idolothite you make him to affirme that every one present at the worship doth communicate in his offence Perhaps you will say it is your inference upon his words But the consequence is absurd and sencelesse And to charge men to affirme directly as a principle what you would inferre contrary to their expresse words is far from honest and plaine dealing Secondly You produce Mr Bates saying That bare presence argues approbation or yeelding in shew to Ceremonies I cannot say you deale with Mr Bates as you have done by Mr Parker and others for I have not seene his Booke But if any such passage be found in him it is his private opinion not the judgement of the most learned and zealous Inconformists It is a bare assertion not confirmed by Scripture or backed with reason as is meete and convenient when it is the maine thing in question and might easily be opposed by the testimonies of Scripture approved practice of the Saints in all ages of the Church the judgement of the godly learned sound reason and the consent of all States that ever upheld or maintained Christian Religion If bare presence be approbation I desire to know how you can reconcile your selfe to your selfe When Dr Ames alledgeth that every Church is not to be left which hath something in it by participation Idolatrous g Can. Neces of Separat pa. 114 115. You answer I know no man holds the contrary therefore I cannot tell for what end he speakes it much lesse why he puts a schismaticall conceit upon the Rej whose words if they be well rectified have substance and weight in them But if bare presence be approbation how can we hold communion with that Church wherein any thing is left which is by participation idolatrous when this is that which the Nonconformists impute to the Crosse among us that it is by participation idolatrous in them that use it And if the reason following be well weighed though in it selfe it hath neither weight nor substance it will over-weigh this For if bare presence be approbation why should not the personall sinnes of the Minister hurt the people or why are they not guilty of his personall sinnes by participation when they communicate with him in the worship of God where they are practiced as in prayer preaching administration of the Sacraments reading the Scriptures c. Presence in the Idoll-Temple at Idoll-worship is sinfull though in

this sincerely in truth and measure But they never thought nor taught that every member in a sort of the visible Churches were holy and sincere the true sheepe of Christ faithfull and effectually called much lesse that it was no Church of Christ wherein abuses were to be found or ungodly prophane men were tolerated The q Bils The difference between christium subject par 1. pag. 92. These se the Church militant triumphāt be not two but one Church Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all Gal. 4. Yee be now saith Paul no more strangers and forreiners but Citizens with the Saints and of the houshold of God Eph. 2. For you be come to the Citie of the living God and Heb. 12. where you see the Saints in heaven be not removed from the Church of God but be received to their fellowship Id. part 2. p. 230. The Church in heaven is it another Church from this on earth or the same Certainly Christ hath but one body which it his Church and of that body seeing the Saints sc in heaven be the greater and worthier part they must be counted the same church with us Church militant and triumphant are not two Kingdomes but two degrees of one Kingdome The Church visible and invisible are not two Churches but distinct considerations of the same Church If then we speake of true sound living chiefe principle members of the militant Church such as partake in all the royalties and priviledges of members every member of the Church militant is a true branch in the Vine knit firmely unto Christ quickned by the Spirit and shall be an inheriter of eternall glory But if we speake of members in a sort of visible societies so hypocrites may be members and ungodly men as they are tolerated in the societie when the better part cannot reforme or amend them But to the Arguments in order First The Church may be true though the Ministery be deficient in the order of calling qualification of persons and execution of their office But that Church is false whose Ministery is altogether false for substance of their office that is the doctrine which they teach Sacraments which they administer and functions whereunto they are set apart Thus the Conformists and Inconformists both Now if we speake of the Ministery of the Church of England indefinitly both Conformists and Inconformists will confesse some things to be faulty both in the entrance and execution of their callings as that some are ignorant proud covetous carelesse corrupt not watching over the flocke But absolutely that their Ministery is false in respect of the substance of their office that was never said by either of them as you doe or might well know The knot to be unloosed now remaineth in your conscience in that either you aequivocate in your Major or against knowledge charge the Nonconformists in your Minor with that which they never said Secondly The true Church of Christ that is the true and lively members of the militant church and militant members of the catholique church is a company of r The true Church is an universall cōgregation or fellowship of Gods faithfull and elect people built upon the foundations of the Prophets and Apostles Christ Iesus himselfe being the head corner stone And it hath alwayes three notes or markes whereby it is knowne pure and sound doctrine the Sacraments ministred according to Christs holy institution and the right use of Ecclesiasticall discipline Hom. 2. booke hom for Whites 2. part The Church consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they be the Church not in respect of flesh and bloud which came from earth but of truth and grace which came from Heaven Bilson Christ Subject part 2. pag. 231. faithfull people a communion of Saints the true flock of Christ which heare know acknowledge beleeve and obey the voyce of Christ the kings daughter which is all glorious within knit to Christ and married unto him But in this societie there are mixed not onely secret hypocrites but fierce Lyons Tigres Wolves Beares wicked Teachers and ungodly livers Thus the Conformists and Inconformists And in this sense the Church of England is a societie of faithfull and beleeving people the flocke of Christ the Kings daughter quickned by the Spirit enriched with grace decked with Gods ordinances walking in sincere constant conscionable obedience though in outward societie and profession mixed with many ignorant vaine prophane persons who have received the presse-money of Christ but indeed fight under the Devils banner as doe all hypocrites and ungodly wretches that is in the Church of England there be some truely of the Church which heare the voyce of Christ mixed with those which in words professe Christ but in their deeds deny him Thus the Conformists and Nonconformists The knot here lyeth onely in an aequivocation or grosse abuse of the word Church which sometimes notes the whole visible societie linked in an externall profession and sometimes the true and living members of Jesus Christ against which the gates of hell shall not prevaile Thirdly The s Deo dat Ital. Ioh. 10.1 The sheepe are the true faithfull endued with spirituall light and discretion sheepe of Christ doe heare his voyce but what sheepe not all that be sheepe in profession but all that be sheepe indeed and truth effectually called and gathered into Christ● sheep-fold They heare that is acknowledge beleeve and obey Christs voyce sincerely but not perfectly fully and compleatly for the faithfull may erre of frailtie and infirmitie both in faith and manners sometimes they are mislead through ignorance drawne aside by passions foiled by temptations Christs sheepe doe obey his voyce but t Bils Christ. subject part 2. pa. 233. The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretickes and hypocrites are not the Church but men regenerate by the Word Sacraments truely serving God according to the Gospell of his Sonne and sealed by the Spirit of grace against the day of Redemption all that are linked with them in outward societie doe not sincerely obey not yet in conversation fashion themselves to the direction and commandement of Jesus Christ And thus the Church of England that is the true and faithfull people in those societies doe heare and obey the voyce of Christ in truth others mixed with them doe heare and professe but not obey If the Church doe erre it is of ignorance nor of wilfulnesse or stubbornnesse In matters of lesse importance not fundamentall or bordering thereupon It is the errour of some onely add not of the whole Church which errours u Gratian. decret par 2. ca. 24. qu. 1. cap. 9. A rectae in Gloss Novitatibus Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia 〈◊〉 Ecclesia non potest nonesse cannot make that shee is not the flocke of Christ The knot here to be unloosed is your sinne in charging that upon the Nonconformists the contrary whereto they have ever

to renounce the world the flesh and the Devill they were baptized Justine sometime an Heathen Philosopher but after a famous Martyr of Christ in his second Apologie for Christians reporteth That if any Heathen man desired to be received into the fellowship of the Church he was first r Concil Agathens ca. 25. Iudaei quorū perfidia frequenter ad vomitum redit si ad legem catholicā venire voluerint octo mēses inter catechumenos Ecclesiae limen introeant si pura fide no scuntur venire tum demum c. Socrat. lib. 7. hist cap. 30. Hieron ad Pammach Tert. de Baptism Tert. de praescript ca 14. in apolog ca. 47. Ruff. in symbol Math. 28.19 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Basil cont Eunom l. 3. Our Baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord In the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost catechised in the principles of Religion then hearing further the word of God as it were the Conditions of the Covenant of grace afterwards came into the face of the Congregation and confessed that he did beleeve and promised that he would obey the word of God whereupon he was baptized and received into the fellowship of the Church And that this order might be the better observed the Church appointed certain times and in some places a longer space at other times and in other places a shorter time for catechising of Heathen before they were baptized Socrates writeth that when the Burgonians desired to be initiated into the number of Christian people after they had been catechised seven dayes they were baptized the eighth Hierome saith the custome in his dayes was to catechize them fortie dayes and then to baptize them Tertullian witnesseth that there were two times in the yeare Easter and Whitsontide especially appointed by the Church for Baptisme and strangers from the Covenant were instructed in the principles of Religion all the rest of the yeare against these two times The profession at first required of all that were received to Baptisme was that they beleeved in the Father Sonne and holy Ghost The Creede is honoured of the Ancients with glorious titles as the rule of faith the Summe of faith the body of faith the perswasion of faith But by the Creede they understand the Rule of truth and law of faith and institution of Christ which was then given when he was about to ascend into heaven and commanded his Disciples saying Goe and teach all Nations Baptising them into the name of the Father Sonne and holy Ghost Regulam fidei per Baptismum accipimus Iren. lib. 1. cap. 2. Per ipsam Baptismi traditionem habemus confessionem Basil despir fanct cap. 10. Regula quidem fidei una omnino est sola immobilis irreformabilis Socrat. Hist lib. 1. ca. 5. Niceph. lib. 8. ca. 17. Hist Trip. lib. 2. ca. 9. credendi sc in unicum Deum omnipotentem mundi conditores filium ejus Jesum c. Tertul. de veland virgin The expositions of the Creede which are found in the ancient Fathers Martial Ignatius Justine Jreneus Tertullian Origen de rect fid dialog princ Novatian lib. de Trin. 3. and others of that age goe not beyond the Trinitie within which bounds the Nicene Creede is terminated as it is set downe in History Arius and Euzonius conclude their confession of faith thus Socrat. Hist lib. 2. cap. 7. lib. 1. cap. 19. Sicut Dominus noster cùm Discipules suos ad praedicandum mitteret c. This faith we received from the Gospel the Lord himselfe saying to his Disciples Goe teach all Nations c. Erasm ad censur facult Theolog. Parisien tit 11. Erasmus sheweth how the Creed was encreased by the addition of divers Articles against the heresies that did arise and though for substance it was the very same every where yet in some places it received more enlargement then in others The westerne Churches herein applyed themselves to the capacities of the meaner so●t more than the Easterne did using in their Baptisme that shorter forme of confession commonly called the Apostles Creed which in more ancient times was briefer also than now it is as we may easily perceive by comparing the symboll recited by Marcellus Anciranus in the profession of the faith Apud Epiphan in haeres 72. which he delivered to Pope Julius with the expositions of the Apostles Creed written by the Latine Doctors Wherein the mention of the Fathers being maker of heaven and earth the Sonnes death and descending into hell and the communion of Saints is wholly omitted The Creede which the Easterne Churches used in Baptisme was larger than this being either the same Euseb epist apud Socrat. lib 1. ca. 5. et 8. Theodor. lib. 8. ca. 12. or very little different from that which we commonly call the Nicene Creede because the greatest part of it was repeated and confirmed in the first generall councell held at Nice where the first draught thereof was presented to the Synod by Eusebius Bishop of Cesarea with this Preamble As we have received from the Bishops that were before us both at our first catechising and when we received Baptisme and as we have learned from the holy Scriptures and as we have both beleeved and taught when we entred into the Ministery and in our Bishopricke it selfe So beleeving at this present also we declare this our faith unto you To this the Nicene Fathers added a more cleare explication of the deitie of the Sonne against the Arrian Heresie wherewith the Church was troubled professing him to be begotten not made Concil Constan ap Theoder lib. 5. c. 9. and to be of one substance with the Father The second generall Councell which was assembled fifty-six yeares after at Constantinople approving this confession of the faith as most ancient and agreeable to Baptisme enlarged it somewhat in the Article that concerned the Holy Ghost especially which at that time was most oppugned by the Macedonian Heretiques Epipha in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 518. edit Gr. Cassian de incarn verb. lib. 5. And whereas the Nicene confession proceeded no further than to the beliefe which we have in the Holy Trinitie the Fathers of the Constantinople made it up by adding that which was commonly professed touching the catholique Church and the priviledges belonging thereunto Epiphanius repeating this Creede at large affirmeth it to have been delivered unto the Church by the Apostles Cassianus avoucheth as much where he urgeth this against Nestorius as the Creed anciently received in the Church of Antioch from whence he came The Romane Church after the dayes of Charles the Great added the Article of the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne unto this Symboll In the s See Bellarm. li. 4. de verbo Dei c. 11. Quaedam in doctrina Christiana tam fidei quam morum sunt simpliciter omnibus necessaria ad salutem qualis est notitia articulorum Symboli

13.2 15.2 Col. 4.11 Iames 5.14 Epiphan haeres 27. Ignat. ad Tralleus Sozom. li. 4. ca. 14. Euseb hist lib. 6. cap. 10 11. Gr. ca. 9. lat Gratian. Decret part 2. cap 7. qu. 1. can 12. And it is to be remembred that in Rome Corinth Ephesus Philippi Colosse Thessalonica and such other Cities inhabited by Christians there were more Pastours than one which did in common governe all the Churches within that Citie and there was not any one Pastour who by himselfe governed a certaine part of the Citie peculiarly assigned to his charge Thus also the Ancients write that Peter and Paul were the first Bishops and Apostles at Rome Paul had Linus and Timothy Peter Clemens and Anacletus Liberius and Felix both governed the Apostolicall Seat Valerius and Augustine Narcissus and Alexander in the Church of Hippo. It is apparent the Apostles ordained many Overseers in one societie and it is not repugnant either to Scripture or reason to thinke there might be many Pastours of one flocke And the flocke might be one under the joynt care of many Shepheards Bilson perpet Gover ca. 10. pa. 155. Every church with them had many Prophets Pastours and Teachers the number and neede of the people and time so requiring T. C. repl l. pa. 34. though they did not ordinarily meete together in one place For to assemble together in one place is meerely accidentall to the unitie of a societie Certaine it is in times of persecution they cannot so meete and it is most probable in the Apostles times many Churches were too populous in that manner to assemble together Those that know the state of France in time of persecution doe well understand that every Church almost was gathered of Townes whereof some were six miles some seven some more from the place of meeting and keeping their Congregations And therefore could not meete so often nor know one another so well as we by the grace of God may doe Fourthly No one Pastour or Teacher hath the power of the censures belonging unto him and whether the power of dispensing the Seales belong to every Minister of the Gospell I leave it to your consideration for I know not what you will resolve but the actuall dispensation of the Seales may be forborne by some to whom the right of dispencing doth appertaine specially when there be others at hand to doe that office The Apostles had power to baptize 1 Cor. 1.14 15 16. Can. Neces of Separat pag. 236. but we may well thinke they did not ordinarily baptize themselves It is possible you say a man may be a true Ecclesiasticall Officer and yet never doe the services thereof Fifthly The Minister of the Gospell is not made absolutely a Minister by the choice or election of this or that people but onely their Minister for the time of his abode and continuance with them Lay these things together and then your exceptions against the office of Lecturers will vanish For if they have not the chiefe charge or cure of soules they be not sole Pastours or Teachers of the flocke but joyned in care or charge with others as Helpers or Assistants or chosen by the people to supply the want of such as should but doe not feed the flocke If they dispence not the Seales neither is that necessary in respect of their standing for right and power from Christ they have to dispence them but in the execution of that power they may be hindred or forbeare it for a time If they leave their place being lawfully called to another flocke it may be with consent of the societie and of the Church and what then doth make it unlawfull or if the charge should be unlawfull it doth not make the Ministery strange or new which is the thing in question SECT II. THat Ministery which is instituted and set up besides those which God hath appointed in his Word Neces of Separat pag. 51 52. is unlawfull and false But the Ministery of Lecturers in England is instituted and set beside these which God hath appointed in his Word Therefore that Ministery is unlawfull and false The proposition is plaine and undeniable and we have their owne words to confirme it For thus they say All the Ministery is by the Word of God and not left to the will of man to devise at their pleasure as appeareth by that which is noted of John where the Pharisees comming to him after that he had denied to be either Christ or Elias or another Prophet conclude if he be neither Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptizest thou Which had been no good argument if John might have been of other function than of those which were ordinary in the Church T. C. repl 1. pa. 62 63. and instituted of God c. Againe to devise another Ministery than that which God hath appointed is condemned by the second Commandement The Assumption is thus proved First if their Lecturers have taken ordination from the Bishops and exercise by that power onely then is their office false by the reasons before laid downe Secondly If it be objected that they never received the Prelates orders or have repented thereof I answer This proves not that they are therefore true Ministers For as Jehu though he did well to suppresse Ahabs idolatrie yet in that he followed the wayes of Jeroboam he himselfe continued still a grosse Idolater Even so howsoever some may privately report that they stand Ministers by no relation to the Bishops yet are they notwithstanding unlawfull Ministers seeing they were never elected chosen ordained according to Gods Word If any reply that they have their calling of the people I answer the thing is surely otherwise as shall be manifested presently But if this were granted yet I deny that any Church under heaven hath power from Christ to ordaine such a kinde of Ministery and therefore if any people should doe it seeing it is against the Scripture it must needs follow that it is an unlawfull Ministery and so consequently not to be communicated with ANSVVER YOu are strangely taken with this note for you have brought nothing but a bare repetition of what you have said over and over If you speake of the substantiall and essentiall parts of the Ministery it is freely granted that the true Ministery is by the word of God and heavenly But if you extend it to every circumstantiall order whereby in this or that Societie the Minister is to execute the function he hath received of God it is not approved But of this you need not to have made so many words To your assumption answer hath been returned already First That the Ministers of the Gospell receive their office and authoritie neither from the Bishop Patron people or Colledge Ecclesiasticall but from Christ immediately whose servants they are in whose name they minister whose flocke they attend and who hath assigned them their worke And if you receive your Ministery from the people as