this life but such as were accounted as dead as going downe to the graue for so Baruch speakes to Israel verse 9 11. And hee speakes of such dead Israelites and their children which had sinned before God and had not hearkened to him verse 4. expressing their deserts worthy death Doe men aliue requesting God to heare for them the prayers of the dead vse to moue God with telling of the Saints sinnes and their rebellion against him Is this a Romish prayer Heare Lord the prayers of the dead for mee for they haue sinned against thee Will any be so madde to alledge such a reason Therefore Baruch makes confession of the liuing Israelites being then through distresse as dead men and beggeth pardon for them as followeth in verse 5. Fiftly their Doway Annotation on this place is this Men in sinnes and miseries are as if they were dead verse 11. yet by Gods mercy may receiue new grace of spirituall life They then take these for men aliue and not dead as this foolish Gagger doth Reu. 2. 26 27. This is answered before and nothing concerneth the prayers of the Saints departed Luk 16. Diues in hell prayed for his brethren on earth much more then will the Saints in heauen Answ 1. This is but a supposed speech a parable and therefore nothing thence to be gathered but as is intended in the scope of the Parable Secondly if there bee such all-knowing vision and all-helping charitie in Heauen it is maruell that in all the Scripture it should no where as clearely be mentioned as this charitie of one damned in hell Reuel 6. 9 10. And I saw vnder the Altar the soules c. and they cryed with a lowd voice How long Lord holy and true doest thou not iudge and auenge our bloud on them that dwell on the earth Answ 1. This was seene by Iohn in a vision and is not to bee interpreted according to the Letter to establish a doctrine of faith Secondly though it be taken after the letter yet here is no proofe that Saints pray for any in particular but for the Church militant in generall Thirdly their Prayer is not for other in the Church they intercede not for other but the request they make concerneth themselues Fourthly their cry is literally for iustice and reuenge vpon their enemies persecutors and sheaders of their bloud Doth mindfulnesse of iniuries remaine in Saints departed They then are lesse charitable then Saints on earth Steuen at his death prayed for his enemies This place proueth not that Saints departed pray particularly here for vs on earth but rather they pray against the enemies of the Church 2. Pet. 1. 15. I will endeuour after my decease to haue remembrance of these things Answ This is not meant by his intercession to God after death but of his then present and diligent writing to them while he was aliue whereby they might bee made to remember after his decease what hee had taught them by word of mouth or writing while he liued 1. King 2. 13 19. Adoniah had a suite to Solomon and used the helpe of Bathsheba to him Absalom vsed Ioabs intercession for him to Dauid 2. Sam. 14. So should we goe vnto God by Saints intercessors for vs. Answ 1. Similitudes are for illustration but doe not proue any thing especially thus detorted absurdly Secondly the case is not alike as betweene man and man so betweene God and vs in this case Hee is God and so euery where and not as man circumscribed in a place To man wee cannot speake when and where we would but to God wee may whose eyes and thoughts are not like to mans Esai 55. Man through pride will not or through carelesnesse regards not or through ignorance knowes not or through businesse is hindered so as hee cannot helpe such as come for helpe or his attendants about him may keepe Petitioners from him so as they cannot speake to him But there are no such lets in God The Simile therefore is not fit Thirdly this is voluntarie humilitie which caused the worship of Angels by certaine Heretikes which the Apostle condemneth Col. 2. 18. Fourthly wee need no Saints to goe to God for vs for wee haue appointed by God himselfe a Mediatour of intercession betweene God and vs his Sonne Iesus Christ by whom boldly with confidence we may goe to God Ephes 3. 12. Heb. 4. 16. 10. 22. 7. 25. Fiftly as for any to goe betweene Christ and vs wee neede it not For he is the Head and all wee the members of his bodie as well those in earth as those in heauen wee here on earth being as deare to him as those in heauen Hee sitteth in heauen to request for vs and is a most mercifull High Priest touched with our infirmities Heb. 4. 15. Therefore hee tooke our nature vpon him Heb. 2. 16. to be a faithfull and mercifull High Priest verse 17. Steuen made no meanes to him but prayed immediately to him Act. 7. 59 60. and so did Iohn Reuelation 22. 20 21. Christ willeth vs himselfe to come vnto him Math. 11. 28. And we reade not that any of the Apostles or holy men praying mentioned in Scripture did euer goe to Saint or Angell to make request for them Also to answer the Simile Is there any of vs hauing a great mans Command in all our needs to come to himselfe giuing his faithfull word and promise to heare our suites requests very readily at any time and none appointed by him to heare suiters when they come but onely himselfe attending mercifully in his owne person for vs in open place without let of any that would goe first to any of his seruants and not forthwith rather to himselfe with all gladnesse I appeale to mens owne hearts in this Lastly this putting of Saints betweene Christ and vs is to make an Intercessor and to hold Saints departed if wee were sure they could heare vs which yet is very vncertaine to bee more louing more tenderly affected toward vs then Iesus Christ himselfe who hath with his owne bloud bought both them and vs. Scriptures obiected that wee may pray to God to haue our Petitions granted in fauour and merit of Saints departed Exod. 32. 13. Remember Abraham Isaac and Israel thy seruants to whom thou swarest c. Answ 1. Here is no merit of Saints vrged Secondly their persons are mentioned by Moses not for their owne worthinesse but for the Couenant which by oath God confirmed to them which Couenant Moses vrgeth not their deserts For Moses speakes of Gods act to them but not a syllable of any thing that they either did or spake note it well 2. Chron. 6. 16. Keepe with thy seruant Dauid my Father that which thou hast promised Answ 1. Here is no word no worke of Dauid remembred and therefore no merit of his vrged Secondly that which Salomon alledgeth in his prayer it Gods promise made vnto Dauid So in 2. Chro. 1. 9. in 1. Chro.
Mal. 2. 11. In the second of Machabees we may reade of horrible corruptions in the high Priests Iason got the office by money brought his Country-men to the Heathen rites the Priests were not occupied about the offices of the Altar but the Temple and Sacrifices were neglected 2. Machab. 4. 7 11 14. And when our Sauiour was come he found many sects false Teachers corrupting the truth Matth. 6. and 16. 6 12. and 23. 16 22. was by the outward pretending domineering Church then in Councell condemned and put to death To conclude of the chiefe Rulers in this Church the saying of Steuen that they were stiffe-necked and vncircumcised in heart and eares alwaies resisting the holy Ghost Act. 7. Who can reade these things and thinke yet that the Church cannot erre if withall they would consider how this Church of Israel had the most excellent meanes for direction and confirmation I. They had the written Word and ordinary Teachers the Priests and Leuites daily instructing them Deut. 33. 10. Acts 15. 21. II. They had extraordinary teaching 1. By God himselfe from Heauen Exod. 20. By Vrim and Thummim by Vision and Dreames 2. By Prophets Moses Samuel Eliah Elisha and very many moe 3. By Kings endued with a Propheticall Spirit as Dauid and Salomon 4. At length by Iesus Christ himselfe personally 5. By the twelue Apostles Mat. 10. 6. By the 70. disciples Luk. 10. 1. Neuer such nor so many in any Church since God had a Church III. They had Miracles and wonders in bringing them out of Egypt in the fearefull giuing of the Law in carrying them thorow the Woldernesse in planting them in Canaan and in strange Miracles wrought in Eliah and Elisha's time and in some of the Kings of Iudah Christ confirmed his doctrine and so did the Apostles and Disciples their teaching by Miracles Luk. 10. 17. No Church vnder the Heauen had euer the like IV. They had great mercies and vnheard of deliuerances from their Enemies from Pharaoh and his Host drowned in the Red Sea from the Amalekites discomfited by Moses prayer from the innumerable multitude of Enemies the Kings of Canaan of Midian Philistims Syrians Assyrians from the Host of Sennacherib nine score thousand slaine by an Angell in one night Kings thirtie two besides Benhadad with an infinite Hoste defeated by onely 7000. and odde Ionathan and his Armour-bearer did terrifie an whole Campe Gideon and three hundred men made an innumerable multitude to she away and with a few other of Ephraim did slay of them in one day one hundred and twenty thousand Asa vanquished the Army of the Ethiopians ten hundred thousand besides three hundred Charets Iehosaphat gathered the spoile of his enemies three Kings comming with their Hosts against him whom God set one against another to destroy vtterly one another for his safetie and enriching What shall I speake of Hostes flying for feare without any pursuing of them For other blessings and mercies they are not to be numbred V. They had strange and most terrible punishments vpon them to keep them in the feare of God to make them to know him and to walke in his waies fire from Heauen deuouring vp some the earth swallowing vp quicke other-some the giuing of them often into the hands of Heathen Kings to oppresse them that they might turne from Idolatry yea at length sent them all into captiuitie for 70. yeeres Thus we see for Teachers for Wonders and Miracles for Mercies and Iudgements none euer to be compared to them Papists may fame Legends to parallel these but these are truths hauing witnesse from Gods Word it selfe And yet this Church erred and as Esay saith chap. 48 4 8. was stubborne had a neck as an Iron sinew and her forehead as brasse and was a transgressour from the wombe If the Papists make little account of these reasons as nothing to keepe a Church from erring yet is it much more then their Romish Church can say for her selfe Let them say what they can for the Churches not erring and we will see whether this Church of Israel cannot say the same also Will they pleade 1. A Couenant Israel had so Deut. 29. 10 15. 2 Or a Couenant written in the heart So was it then Ier. 31. 33. Esay 5. 7. 3. Or a Couenant with their Priests So had the Priests then Ier. 33. 20. 4. Or that the Priests lips should preserue knowledge and the people learne of them and they teach the people So the verie same might Israel alledge Mal. 2 7. Deut. 33. 10. Neh. 8. 7 8 9. Leui. 10. 11. Ezech. 44 23. yea and did boast of Ier. 18. 18. 5. Or succession of persons from time to time in the same Chaire or Seate This could she plead to the full from Aaron the first appointed immediatly by God himselfe with his office place seruice ornaments and maintenance his next successor to be also named by God himselfe Num. 20. 28. 6. Or the Continuance of this Couenant to vphold succession This had it in plaine words and therefore was for euer the Priest-hood appointed to him and his seed Num. 25. 12 13. 7. Or the presence of God with them So could and did Israel Mâ—ch 3. 11. 8. Or the name of the Church So they Ier. 7. 4. 9. Or that it is called holy the Ground and Pillar of truth So was Ierusalem the holy Citie Esay 48. 2. the Citie of truth the sanctified Mount Zach. 8. 3. 10. Or that the Word did go out from them to conuert other Nations So could they as they were taught by Esay Chap. 2. 3. of making Proselytes could the Pharises boast Mat. 23. 11. Or the Spirit to be in them to keepe their Teachers from erring Who could thus speake as Israel might Nehe. 9. 20. Esay 6. 3 11. Zach. 7. 12. as Peter witnesseth 2. Pet. 1. 21. 12. Or that they are called the Church and are come from the Apostles Church at Ierusalem So they by Stephen Act 7. 38. also saith Isaiah Esay 48. 1. Heare ye ô House of Iacob which art called by the name of Israel and are come out of the waters of Iudah So could the Scribes and Pharises boast of their Originall Ioh. 8. 33. 13. Or that they are Catholicks and the world spred ouer with them And could not the Iewish Church say so Of their Religion were some of euerie Nation vnder heauen Act. 2. 5 9 10 11. they were dispersed in all the Persian Monarchy Esteâ— 3. 8. Chap. 1. there were many Proselytes made such was the Eunuch of Ethiopia and to make them they trauailed Sea and Land Mat. 23. 14. Or that they haue euer had the holy Scriptures in their custodie So to the Iewes were committed the Oracles of God Rom. 3. 2. 15. Or yâ— the Church now hath many excellent promises What more then Israel had to be their God they to him a peculiar treasure aboue all people a kingdome of Priests an holy Nation Exod. 19. 5 6. to
and the Angell of God keepe you company Answ 1. This Booke is Apocryphall and therefore is not of force to confirme a Doctrine of faith Secondly this power of Tobie is made to God and not directed to the Angell Hee prayeth God to prosper his iourney and for this end he desireth that Gods Angell might bee sent with them to keepe them company which we also may and doe pray for in such a case For the Angels haue charge ouer vs to keepe and defend vs in our wayes and godly courses Osea 12. 4. He had power ouer the Angell c. Hee made supplication to him Answ 1. This Angell was the Lord for it is said hee found him in Bethel Now that Angell was God Gen. 31. 11 13. and 28. 13. 35. 9 10. and euen in Hosea 12. verse 5. hee the same is said plainely to be The Lord God of Hosts Song of the three Children verse 36. O yee Angels of the Lord blesse ye the Lord c. Answ 1. This is Apocrypha Here is no praying to Angels for as they speake to Angels so in like manner they say O yee Sunne and Moone O yee Starres and light And so O yee winds fire and heat Winter and Summer c. And therefore by the like reason all these are to bee prayed vnto and so should wee be worse then Heathen Idolaters II. The words expresse a duty of their blessing and praising of God which they are to performe to God and not a word of any thing that they are requested to doe for vs. Numb 22. 34. Balaam said to the Angell I haue sinned c. Answ I. This Balaam was a Witch Is this a good instance Fit enough for a Romish Balaamite II. Here is no Prayer made but a confession of sinne III. This Angell Balaam said was the Lord. Compare verse 35. with verse 38. And when the Angell verse 35. said to Balaam onely the word that I shall speake vnto thee that shalt thou speake the Text in chap. 23. 4 5. saith that God met him and the Lord put a word into his mouth so verse 16. Gen. 19. 18 19 20. Oh not so my Lord. Answ Lot here prayed not to a created Angell it is cleare For first the Angell which spake to Lot thus I haue accepted of thee I will not destroy this Citie speakes as hauing authoritie in himselfe Secondly hee is called the Lord verse 24. The Lord rained from the Lord. For praying to Saints Luk. 16. 24. Father Abraham haue mercy on me c. Answ I. This is a Parable and the letter is not to bee vrged beyond the scope of the Parable which is not to teach vs to pray to Saints II. Their owne men say that vnder the Law as is before shewed there was no praying to Saints And Bellarmine giueth the reason according to his owne faith because they were not as yet in heauen III. This is an example of a damned man who flyeth with horrour from the presence of God who cals not vpon God Can this be a patterne for Gods Church to follow IV. This Parable speakes of Diues and Abraham as within eyesight and hearing one of another though diuided by a gulfe of separation What is this thē to vs on earth to petition Saints in heauen whom we see not nor cannot certainly tell that they doe heare vs to giue answer againe as Abraham doth here to Diues V. The example is not of one here on earth praying to one in Heauen as the proofe ought to be but of one soule to another both departed this life Iob 5. 1. Call now if there bee any that will answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turne Answ I. Eliphas exhorts not Iob to pray vnto any Saint but reproues Iobs not well-demeaning himselfe towards God in his afflictions by so iustifying himselfe as if there were no iust cause with God thus to deale with him And to let him fee how herein hee did amisse he willeth him to consider the examples of the Saints in affliction whether they did so behaue themselues and he implyeth that none did so nor carried themselues as he did II. Their expounding it of praying to Saints hath no ground hence For first the interrogation implyeth a negation that none of the Saints would answer neither would Iob turne to any of them to haue answer from them Secondly here is no example of inuocation And if Eliphaz words be vrged as a precept what warrant had he to impose it on Iob or we so to receiue it from him For he was no Prophet sent of God to teach Iob. And the text telleth vs that Gods wrath was kindled against him for that he spake not of God the thing which was right as Iob did Iob 42. 7. Thirdly if the words of Eliphaz be vrged not as a new precept but as an exhortation to that which was then in practice why doth Bellarmine and other say that before Christ no prayers were made to Saints departed and why doe they alledge places out of the Old Testament herein fighting against themselues Gen. 48. 16. Let my name be named on them Answ Iacob here willeth not to bee prayed vnto after death for none of his posteritie euer so did but hee adopteth Iosephs children as his owne and so to be called that is that Ephraim and Manasses should be called the sonnes of Iacob or children of Israel The like phrase is so to bee taken Esa 4. 1. Rom. 15. 30. Heb. 13. 18 19. Iob 42. 8. Gen. 20. and other places where one is to pray for another Answ I. These places are spoken of one praying for another in this life and not of any praying to Saints departed From the liuing to the dead it followeth not For men liuing do acquaint one another with their estates and so they haue certaine knowledge thereof but it is not so betweene the liuing and the dead It is very vncertaine whether these heare and know what is asked of them II. There are for this dutie pregnant precepts and liuely examples euery where in Scripture but none such for the other III. The Scripture doth witnesse the fruitful effect of prayers made here one for another As Moses his prayers for the Israelites at the Red Sea in fighting against Amalek and at other times So Isaiah his prayer for Ierusalem for ouerthrow of Sennacheribs Host and so of many others But the Scripture no where witnesseth any effect at all of the prayers of the dead for any thing here on earth IV. This praying is mutuall one for another as we pray others to pray for vs so others desire our prayers for them But the departed desire not ours for them neither need they our prayers They alledge other Scriptures to proue First that Angels pray for vs. Secondly that Saints departed know what passeth on the earth Thirdly that they doe pray particularly for vs. Fourthly that wee may beseech God to grant our Petitions in fauour and
when hee liued on the earth Thirdly if but so what is this to proue that Saints then and so now doe know euery mans estate particularly and what passeth here vpon earth Ioh. 5. 45. There is one that accuseth you euen Moses Answ 1. By Moses is not meant his person but his writings among them as the verses 46. and 47. doe declare Secondly it is absurd to make the Saints in Heauen accusers Papists will haue them Intercessors whose propertie is not to accuse in any sort but to pray for them which pray to them Thirdly Christ saith they trust in Moses Will a Saint in heauen bee so displeased with them and so faile them that trust in him that hee will goe and accuse them vnto God Such then become miserable Patrons Doth their Legend afford any such examples Fourthly Christs saying that they trusted in Moses must not be vnderstood of his person but of his writings For the Iewes did not beleeue in man A curse as is before deliuered they knew to be pronounced against them which trusted in man Reu. 12. 10. The accuser of the brethren is cast downe which accused them before God day and night Answ In the former they make Moses an accuser of some and so in that respect a companion with the diuell heere Is not this a wise Gagger But how can they proue hence that Saints in Heauen know what is done here Because the diuell knowes what euils are here done A goodly reason But doe not wee know that the Diuell is here on earth that hee compasseth the earth to and fro Hee stirres vp Dauid to number the people hee is author of much mischiefe hee must then know many things And will it hence follow therefore that soules which remaine continually in heauen must know what is here done in earth 2. King 6. 12. Elisha telleth what words the King of Syria spake being farre from him So 2. King 5. 26. Elisha saw what passed between Naaman and Gehezi 1. Cor. 12. Saint Paul was rapt vp into the third Heauen Act. 7. Steuen in earth saw Christ in heauen Answ 1. These places tell vs that these things were so Let them bring vs Scriptures which will affirme as much of the soules in heauen heere seeing things in earth and we will beleeue But this these places proue not Secondly these were extraordinarie reuelations and giue no warrant of ordinarie knowledge In such things from extraordinarie acts to ordinarie is no sound arguing For the Prophets did not know all things Elisha knew not the cause of the Shunamites comming 2. King 4. 27. nor Samuel when he went to lesse his house whom God would chuse 1. Sam. 16. 6. Thirdly all these are instances of knowledge in men on earth of things done on earth or of things which being on earth they saw in heauen but not a word what those in heauen saw here vpon earth which is the onely point in question The Gagger quoteth moe places As Mat. 19. 28. But this is nothing to purpose And the place is meant of all appearing before Christ at the last day whom the Apostles shall then see Reu. 2. 26. 1. Here is a promise accomplished in Christ See D. White his last booke p 309. 310 311 312. in answer to this as also to Reu. 3. 12. 1. Cor. 13. 9. 5. 10. not cited by the Gagger Psal 2. in whom the Saints haue this power See Augustine Beda and many other cited by Fulke on this place for this sense Secondly this is to bee vnderstood of the Saints power ouer those out of the Church For here they are to bee ruled with a rodde of iron and to be broken in pieces But the Saints departed Papists make Protectors of others and not breakers of them to shiuers Act. 5. 3. This was an extraordinarie manifestation of Ananias his hypocrisie to Peter If they can proue that God doth reueale mens actions here to Saints in Heauen wee yeeld 1. Sam. 28. 14. Here is the Diuell appearing in Samuelt likenesse what hence this Gagger will gather for Saints knowledge in heauen I know not III. Scriptures obiected that Saints departed doe pray for vs particularly answered Reu. 5. 8. The 24. Elders fell downe before the Lambe hauing euery one of them Harps and golden Vials full of odours which are the prayers of the Saints Answ 1. This was in a vision and traunce and the words allegoricall and therefore cannot bee the ground of Doctrine of faith Secondly here is not meant the Saints departed but these foure and twenty are the type of the whole Church here on earth verse 10. Thirdly these prayers of the Saints which Saints are on earth chap. 8. 3. may be the prayers of the foure and twenty Elders themselues yet called the prayers of the Saints as if they were the prayers of others First for that these represent the whole Church verse 9. which consists of Saints Secondly because a Church or Congregation of people gathered together pray not onely for themselues but for all the Saints of God and so their hearts here being as Vials full of the grace of Prayer as it were odours are esteemed the prayers of all Saints Fourthly Tho. Aquinas Rich. de Sco. Victore Haymo Beda and other doe expound this place of the Church militant 2. Mach. 15. 14. Then Onias answered c. Where he telleth how Ieremy prayed for the people Answ 1. This is an Apocryphal Booke Secondly this speech of Onias touching Ieremies praying was but Iudas his dreame For it is said in verse 11. that he told the souldiers al this as his dreame to encourage them to fight It is weake architecture to build vpon a dreame doctrines of faith Thirdly neither did Iudas much regard the helpe of Ieremies prayer For in the same Chapter hee himselfe did pray verse 21 22 23. but intreated not Ieremy to pray for him but made his suite onely to God Ier. 15. 1. Though Moses and Samuel stood before me c. Answ 1. These words are spoken onely by way of supposition as if God had said If Moses and Samuel were now before mee as they were when they liued on earth praying for these people I should not regard them Is it good reasoning from a suppositiue speech to a reall act indeed Secondly they themselues say that all the Fathers that were before Christ were in Limbus Patrum and so could not know our affaires in particular to pray for vs. Baruch 3. 4. Heare now the prayers of the dead Israelites Answ 1. This booke is Apocryphal Secondly were not these in the place called Limbus Patrum How could they then see all things in the face of God from whose presence they were kept Thirdly heere is mention of the prayers of dead Israelites but not for whom they prayed It is not said they prayed for others on earth They might pray for themselues in Limbo Fourthly by dead Israelites are not here to bee vnderstood such as were departed
of Rome Papists for their Pope and Romanists from their City but they themselues vsurped the name of Catholikes They call vs Lutherans and Caluinists but we make none saue only Christ the autor of our faith commonly we are called Protestants because we continue our protestation against the enemies and abominations of the Romish Church Such a Church thus taken in this generall manner professing Christ vnder one name or other hath euer bene visible euen to the world Thus we teach that the Church is euer visible one where or other and neuer wholy hidden at any time But here in the question the name Church we take more strictly for a companie wheresoeuer assembled in publique together worshipping the true God in Iesus Christ as God himselfe onely hath prescribed by his Word whereto outwardly they professe conformitie both for doctrine and conuersation also in good measure This true Church of God we say is visible First in respect that it consists of men making open profession Secondly in respect of the place being publique where such obtaine liberty to meete together Thirdly in respect of the externall actions in and about the worship of God Thus this Church is visible but not alike gloriously coÌ„spicuous at al times in euery place where God planteth it This Church we affirm not to be at any time inuisible but we only say it is sometime hidden neither yet do we meane hereby that it is so hidden as not to be found any where of theÌ„ that seeke after it by due means as if it were vtterly extinguished nor so hidden as not to be seene of any in any place for such a hiding we neuer dreame of as our Aduersaries interpret falsely against vs but when we say it is hidden we meane that it is not acknowledged but contemned by the euill ones which loue not the truth by reason of the fewnes of the followers Mat. 10. 23. and 23 34. Heb. 11. 38. Act. 1. 13. and 12. 12 and 20. 7 8. thereof and their secret meetings in time of persecution and their decay of outward gouernment and publique exercises in open places For these reasons she is said to be hidden and this hidden estate of the Church commeth to passe 1. For that she consisteth of a mixt companie the worser sort sometime and for a long time comming to be the greater and a preuailing faction 2. As they preuaile so they diminish the number weaken the credit of those professing the truth and do bring cunningly their owne will their owne inuentions and wayes into estimation with the worldly minded 3. This preuailing faction and greater number increasing engrosse and arrogate to themselues the name of the Church and so encroach vpon credit to their owne deuices as vaunting to be the onely true Church and their profession and practice the onely true and sound Religion 4. Hereupon they condemne the other as Schismatiques and Hereticks and their way as heresie and so raise vp against them persecution inhibiting their meetings in publique scattering their Assemblies punishing their Teachers and making them to be generally euill spoken of and putting by-names vpon them full of reproach to cause theÌ„ to be the more detested of the worst and distasted of indifferent minds by forging many lies and falsities vpon them both in life and doctrine 5. By this it commeth to passe that now they are glad to flie away to hide themselues to meete in secret places where they may with any safetie come together till God raise such as be in authoritie to afford them publique meetings againe In the meane space they are as it were hidden and this is all we meane when we speake of the hidden Church which is not so hidden but that the members of her are seene one to another See D Whites te aâ—d cable obâ—eruatiâ—ns of the Church i◠〈◊〉 Reply to Fisher pag. 51. and do often meete together yea some of them are espied by this preuailing faction sometime whom they cruelly persecute and put to death if they do not recant and turne to them Their assertion that the Church hath beene euer to the world gloriously visible is most false Confuted by their owne Bible 1. By Propheticall speeches foretelling that the Church shall lose her glorious conspicuousnesse to the world 1. Chr. 15. 3. And many dayes shall passe in Israel without the true God and without Priest and Teachers and without the Law Osea 3. 4. Many dayes shall the children of Israel sit without King without Priest without Sacrifice without Altar and without Ephod and Teraphim See also Mich. 3. 6 7. and in Mat. 24. 24. Christ foretelleth that false Christs and false prophets shall arise and so farre seduce as to deceiue the verie elect if it were possible which could not be if the true Church should be euer gloriously conspicuous S. Paul 2. Thess 2. 3 4. telleth vs of such a reuolt as Antichrist shall be exalted and sit in the Temple of God And S. Iohn in the Reuelation Chap. 9. 2. telleth of such a darknesse that should obscure the Sunne and Aire of such an oppression of the Church as she should be trodden vnder foote Chap. 11. 2. of such a persecution as she should be glad to fly into the wildernesse Chap. 12. 6. and lastly of such a preuailing of the Beast that enemie as the whole earth should adore and follow after him Chap. 13. 7 8. Which Word of God must needs be true And therefore the Church is not euer gloriously conspicuous to the world as an earthly Monarchy or estate 2. By Historicall narration 2. Chron. 15. 3. Heb. 11. 37 38. Iudg. 6. 2. in the kingdom of Iudah in Ahaz his dayes in the dayes of Manasses his reuolt from God for then was there no glorious conspicuitie of the Church any where What a low ebbe was Gods Church come to in Israel in Eliah his dayes About the time of Christs suffering what glorious face of the true Church weâ— there then Christ was condemned the Apostles were sted 〈◊〉 scattered Peter forswore Christ Was heere a glorious true Church in the eye of the world We see then the Church hath not euer beene in a pompous visibilitie Contraried by Antiquitie S. Augustine Epist. 80. ad Hesych towards the end and Epist. 48. ad Vincent saith When the Sunne shall be darkened and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen as is prophesied Reuel 6. and 9. 1. then the Church shall not appeare for that then the vngodly persecutors See more of this his opinion in Enarrat in Psal 10. de bapt also contra Donat. lib. 6. cap. 4. shall rage out of measure S. Chrysostome on Mat. Hom. 49. saith that since the time that Heresies inuaded the Church it can no wayes be knowne which is the true Church of Christ but by the Scriptures onely in this confusion it can no otherwaies else be knowne This sheweth then that the true Church of
erre in this way hee doth not say The Church or the learned Church men or men in holy Orders for are these fooles but wayfaring men though fooles shall not erre Here is a promise that the simple Laytie shall not mistake their way which Popish Teachers cannot abide to heare of Neither shall any vncleane passe ouer this way but they teach that their Church Catholike consists of elect and reprobate both good and bad cleane and vncleane Therefore in a spirituall sense the words are to be vnderstood of the onely sanctified by Gods Spirit here trauelling in this World as wayfaring men and though esteemed as fooles yet are so guided in their holy profession as they shall not bee suffered to wander out of the way of life neither totally nor finally But he will say If these shall not erre then much lesse shall the Church True who denies it we doe not say that all the whole Church and all the holy that euer haue been such as this place speaketh of haue all erred this thousand yeeres as the Gagger beares his Reader in hand making him beleeue that we so teach Here the Prophet speakes of the Lords redeemed separated from the vncleane in a spirituall estate in and by Christ but in our dispute we speake of the visible Church of cleane and vncleane good and bad and of a mixt company III. This verse and the whole chapter speakes in the first place of the returne from Captiuitie which the Prophet doth expresse in figuratiue speeches to set out the comfort thereof most liuely and so it is nothing to the purpose for which the Gagger brings it In a high sense it sets out the spirituall happinesse of the redeemed by Christ partly here begun and fully to be perfected in the day of the Churches perfect redemption IV. It speakes not here of the Churches teaching but rather of the Saints trauailing towards Heauen But the word not erre made the Gagger thinke he had obtained his purpose and an expresse text for not erring in Doctrine when the words speake of a way a high-way of trauailing men and others not passing ouer it and of the redeemeds walking vers 9. Then being vnderstood of not erring in life it cannot be taken absolutely for error of life is in the best but they erre not to finall destruction Ephes 5. 27. That hee might present it to himselfe a glorious Church not hauing spot or wrinkle or any such thing but that it should be holy and without blemish Answ 1. Our dispute is of the visible Church and mixt company this is to be vnderstood only of the body whereof Christ in the most proper sense is the Head and Sauiour vers 9. which hee nourisheth and cherisheth vers 29. betweene whom and Christ thereis such an vnion as it is called a great Mystery vers 32. which cannot properly be meant of visible Churches consisting not onely of Elect but also of Reprobates who are not clensed nor nourished or cherished as members of his body nor made euer glorious II. The Apostle speakes heere of the Church either as triumphant or if as militant then as it is in preparing and as it shall bee hereafter in Heauen for in this life it is not altogether spotlesse without wrinkle or blemish Cant. 1. 5 6. III. This place doth serue rather to prooue her puritie in life then infallibilitie of iudgement in teaching this latter is hence farre fetched the former may seeme more apparant But will any beleeue that Gods Church for life and conuersation is in this life without spot wrinkle or blemish 1. Tim. 3. 15. The Church of the liuing God the ground and pillar of truth Because this place is much vrged by others and the last of this Gaggers I will more fully make answer vnto it Hence hee would conclude that the Church cannot erre he meaneth the Church of Rome the Pope at least the virtuall Church for they defend not now any Church from errour but their owne But this they can neuer proue out of the place I. Saint Paul wrote to Timothy how he should behaue himselfe in the Church 1. Tim. 3. 14. So his Epistle that is the Apostolicall written Word was made to be Timothies rule to guide him from erring and not the Churches determination S. Paul for all this his praise of the Church sent him not to Her but prescribed him a written Word to direct him in gouerning of her which hee would not haue done if by calling the Church the pillar and ground of truth he had meant she could not haue erred II. Saint Paul speaketh thus of the then present Church of Ephesus where Timothy was chap. 1. 3. built vpon the foundation Ephes 2. 20. and yet she soone left her first Loue Reuel 2. 4. and after fell away III. The word Church comprehendeth all the faithfull together at Ephesus so the Church of Ephesus is taken Reuel 2. 1. But our Aduersaries will not haue the people as the Apostles allowed Act. 15. 22. with their Bishops and Pastors to be the Church and with them to approue of matters of Faith For the Romish Clergie thinke of the people as did the hypocriticall Pharises that they know not the Law and are cursed Ioh. 7. 49. Except they allow the people also with the Teachers to be the pillar and ground of truth this place doth not serue their turne IV. If the word Church bee taken for any other particular Church to which Timothie as an Euangelist might goe after the Apostles planting of them then from hence the Papists cannot conclude that which they would for first they acknowledge that particular Churches may erre Secondly its euident by Scripture in the Churches of Galatia Gal. 1. and 3. 1. and 4. 10 11. by historie and by experience Now the Church of Rome was neuer other then a particular Church in the best spirituall estate thereof Saint Paul writes to it no otherwise then to a particular Church V. If it be taken for the Vniuersall Church this helpes not them For first theirs is not the vniuersall but a particular Church as is proued after in the sixteenth question Secondly it is absurd to reason from that which is not questioned nor can euer assemble together to come to the triall if it were questionable VI. The intituling of the Church to bee the pillar and ground of truth wil not afford the conclusion of not erring and that for these Reasons First because the words are metaphoricall and a similitude must be extended no farther then is in ended Now the Church is called the pillar and ground not because shee cannot erre but first for that she hath the Apostles writings committed to her as were the Oracles of God to the Iewes Rom 3. 2. which Apostles writings are saith Irenous the pillars and supporters of our faith the proofes foundations Li. 3. ca. 1. and the grounds of our cause as Saint * De vnit Eccl. ca. 16. On this 1. Tim. 3.
to his Mother in Luke did dreame of a Pope-holy Father and his Churches iurisdiction Christs Kingdome was not nor is not of this world Ioh. 18. 36. but the Popes is therefore he vndertakes to be chiefe Iudge to diuide inheritances and to dispose of kingdomes which Christ refused to intermeddle in Luk. 12. 14. Moreouer his Kingdome should extend to the vttermost parts of the earth but so did neuer Romes Iurisdiction Many Christian Churches neuer subiected themselues to her many farre remote know her not nor her Pope whether a man or a woman Pope Ioane Lastly The Romish Church cannot be Christs Kingdome for that the Pope is Antichrist whose character set forth in the Scripture he seemeth so liuely to expresse that his best abetters cannot free him of that title For my part I haue laid the dogge so neere his doore that I hope hee and his Parasites See also the Answer of B. Downame vnto Leon. Lessius de Antichristo cannot beat him away See more in my poore labours vpon the Reuelation Coloss 1. 5 6. Yee heard before in the word of the truth of the Gospell which is come vnto you as it is in all the world and bringeth forth fruit c. But saith the Gagger No faith or Gospell hath or is so dilated in all the world nor hath fructified as the faith of the Romane Church hath done Answ 1. Where is in the Text Rome or the Romish Church Secondly by saying no faith or Gospell hath or is so dilated speaking in the time past and present hee playeth the deceitfull Merchant by making two different things one 1. For by the time past and most ancient must bee meant the faith and Gospell in the Church planted in other places as well as at Rome in the Apostles dayes of which this place of the Colossians speaketh and by the time present is vnderstood the faith and profession of the now Romish Church greatly differing from that which the Apostle commended then as before is manifested out of the Epistle to the Romanes Thirdly in that he saith no faith meaning this present faith for which hee onely striueth hath not been nor is so dilated in all the world fructified and growne is not true For first the true faith beginning at Ierusalem went farther being preached to euery creature vnder Heauen Col. 1. 6 23. Secondly this our present faith the very same with that Ancient faith as I See my Booke Looke beyond Luther haue proued is dilated fructified and growne more then theirs It is in both the East and West Indies it is in more Kingdomes in Europe then the Pope hath full iurisdiction in as in England Scotland with all the adiacent Ilands belonging to both Kingdomes which bee many in Ireland in Denmarke Norway Sweden Poland Lapland and in other Countreys vnder those Kings in Pomeraine in the Low Countreys in Dukedomes Princedomes and in other places in Germany Besides that it is in France and some other places of the Popes Iurisdiction So that for spaciousnesse wee be little behinde Rome Hereto are to bee added the Russian Greeke and Abyssine Churches as large as the European In those the Papacie is either vtterly vnknowne or abhorred as vehemently as by vs. Thirdly the faith and vnbeliefe of the Mahumetane Religion is beyond the Romish present faith Therefore as the Text helpeth him not so his boasting is vaine and false Rom. 1. 8. I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world The Gagger hauing cited this place saith that Saint Paul in expresse termes calleth the faith of the whole world or Catholike faith The faith of the Romanes that is to say of the Romane Church Therefore it is onely the Catholike Church Answ 1. Note here that hee concludeth the Catholikenesse from the faith of the Church where therefore that is which then was commended must needs bee the Catholike Church holding the Catholike faith as we doe Secondly but what is this to the Romish Church now For their present faith is not that which Paul commended then This should they proue Is this good reasoning Such a mans word was of singular credit formerly with euery man Ergo it is so still when hee is growne Bankerupt Ierusalem was the ioy of the whole earth ergo it is so still Let this Gagger proue their faith now the same with that then else this place will doe them no good but rather vpbraideth their Apostasie 3. In this application of the words hee erreth grosly or rather if it be not his error through ignorance then it is wicked deceite and so worse in calling it the faith of the Church of Rome as if originally it had flowed from thence and gone out thence into the world when Saint Paul mentioneth not any going forth of this Faith from thence but that it was spoken of which is to be vnderstood of their receiuing of it as it was receiued of other Nations as is euident in Rom. 1. 5 6. where Paul speakes of the Faith among all nations among whom saith he they were called So as those at Rome were partakers with others of the common faith preached in the world and not otherwise beholden to Rome for their faith as this Gagger would insinuate to his credulous Schollers This text therefore makes Rome no more the Catholicke Church then Corinth Philippi Tessalonica c. which had receiued the same faith though their receiuing of it was not perhaps so much spoken of for the reasons afore alleadged XVII Proposition That the Church of Rome hath euer beene in perfect vnity within it selfe Confuted by their owne Bible FOr euen in the Apostles dayes when Saint Paul wrote his Epistles there were in the Romane Church some which then made dissentions and scandals contrary to the doctrine which they had learned which serued not Christ our Lord but their owne bellies Rom. 16 17 18. as yet they now doe at Rome There were vncharitable contentions and iudging of one another about things in themselues indifferent about eating and not eating as also about superstitious obseruing of dayes Rom. 14. in and about which two things a great deale of their Religion consists to this day And if shee hath beene in such vnity alwaies within her selfe how is it happened that she is become the great Whore Reu. 17. and that her Head the Pope is become that Man of Sinne 2. Thes 2. and that Antichrist the beast like a Lambe which speaketh as the Dragon Reu. 13 Contraried by Antiquity I. There is no vnity betweene the Popes and Peter whom they make their Predecessor See for this Catal. Test verit pa. 27. 62 c. Saint Peters life and the Popes compared Saint Peters Doctrine in his Epistles and the Popes Decrees together II. Not betweene Pope and Pope Not in iudgement for Martin the fift held with the Councell of Constance and Eugenius the fourth with Ferrara and Florence against the
Dutie common to other of inferiour ranke This word feede therefore will helpe them nothing for the Supremacie The word my pulleth downe Peter from Soueraignty For first Peters charge is to seed not his owne but Christs sheepe So then Peter is not a Lord but a Seruant-Shepheard to feede the chiefe Shepheards flocke as Peter himselfe calleth Christ who knew no other chiefe Shepheardship either in himselfe or in any other but in Christ 1. Pet. 5. 3. And wee reade how the flocke is called Gods Act. 20. 28. 1. Pet. 5. 2. but no where Peters As also by Christ himselfe wee are taught that there is but one fold and one Shepheard of that fold to wit but one generall Shepheard and that is he himselfe Ioh. 10. 11 14 16. and not Peter and that by Peters owne acknowledgement in the fore-quoted place 1. Pet. 5. 3. The word Lambes or Sheepe considered with the rest of the words and as it is commonly taken wipes away Peters Supremacie For first the words are not spoken vniuersally Feede all my Lambes as if hee had been charged with all of them For this had beene a charge First which hee could neuer haue performed secondly which he neuer did attempt to performe Now God neuer imposed any impossible charge vpon him and Peter would not haue been found faithlesse But it is spoken indefinitely to feed here and there whom he could and where hee could at any time Therefore hee is not here the vniuersall Bishop Secondly Lambes or Sheepe are not Apostles Prophets Euangelists and Pastors These are neuer so called but in relation to Iesus Christ onely Mat. 26. 31. and neuer in reference to any man But if vnder these Lambes and Sheepe bee comprehended all and euery one of the Church and flocke of Christ then by their account all the Apostles and the rest must bee sheepe and Peter their Shepheard and so a Shepheard ouer shepheards Which vaine conceit without proofe who can giue credit vnto And yet Bellarmine makes a difference betweene Lambes and Sheepe The Lambes forsooth must bee the Laitie and the Sheepe the Apostles when as the words are vsed indifferently Math. 10. 16. Luk. 10. 3. Act. 8. 32. And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christ though he vse two words yet doth not make any such difference For the two words to feede are applyed also indifferently to either of them So that taking sheepe for the Apostles Peter must not onely rule as they would haue it but also teach the Apostles when Apostles are all immediately from Christ and taught of Christ and by his holy Spirit Galat. 1. 1 12. and needed no instruction from man in the worke of the Ministerie Math. 10. 20. Ioh. 14. 26. and 16. 13. Thus we see there is not the least footing in any word of this Text for Peters Supremacie aboue all other on which yet they settle it But if here Peters Supremacie could bee proued yet what 's this to the Pope He feeds not by preaching Christs Lambes but rules or rather rauages like a roaring Lyon ouer Christs Sheepe hee is like a Lambe but speakes like the Dragon Reuel 13. Lastly that here is no Headship giuen to Peter it appeareth in verse 17. where it is said that vpon Christs third time questioning him he was grieued Now may wee reasonably suppose if Peter had conceiued of Christs words as Popes doe that a Supremacie was therein bestowed vpon him that hee would haue beene grieued Doe men grieue at high preferments offered especially hauing contended for the same as the Apostles had done Who seeth not therefore that Peter perceiued no such glorious preferment nor high Dignitie out of any thing that Christ here spoke as our Aduersaries doe From all this it is cleere that Peter from hence hath no Headship aboue others XX. Proposition That Peter was the onely Vicar of Christ here on Earth Confuted by their owne Bible FOr Vicaradge vnto Christ properly so taken it teacheth vs That Iesus Christ going out of the world promised to substitute in his roome not any Peter nor any man but such a one as could bee euery where with his Church in his bodily absence which was his holy Spirit Ioh. 15. 26. 16. 7. And by this would hee be euer with them Math. 28. 19 20. 18. 20. to remember them of all things Ioh. 14. 26. to guide them Ioh. 16. 13. and to dwell with them Ioh. 14 17. Rom. 8. 9. which a Peter could not doe Secondly it telleth vs that according to this promise when Christ ascended hee sent downe his Spirit Act. 2. by which Gods people are still guided and taught Rom. 8. 1 5 9. 11 14 26. 1. Cor. 2. 10 12. 1. Ioh. 2. 20 27. which beareth witnesse to our spirits that wee are Gods children Rom. 8. 16. Gal. 4. 6. by which wee are sealed to eternall life 2. Cor. 1. 12. Ephes 1. 13. Thirdly it declareth vnto vs that when Christ ascended hee was mindfull of his Church and gaue gifts vnto men Some to Ephes 4. 12. be Apostles some Prophets some Euangelists some Pastors and Teachers but among these no one generall Vicar or Head ouer all If there had beene such a one Paul had as good reason to haue mentioned him as the rest But his Vicar generall was Gods Spirit and no man And note that the Apostle shewes a threefold vse of these afore-named 1. For that they were the consummation of the Saints 2. For the worke of the Ministerie 3. For the edifying of the body of Christ Now if a generall visible Vicar on earth had serued for any of these purposes hee had been giuen of Christ but he needed not and therefore this needlesse gift was not giuen to any As for a supply of Instructers Guides and Lights in the Church Militant wee deny not but Christ hath left many Vicars and doth still send dayly Embassadours to his Church to reconcile vs to God And so our Bishops and other Ministers of the Church by the Keyes of power and knowledge open the way of Heauen to Christian people which they doe in Christs stead and therein are his Vicars or Deputies lawfully called But this Vicaradge is too small a portion for Sir Pope Contraried by Antiquitie Tertul. de violand Virgin The Lord sent the Holy Ghost that mans mediocritie not being capable of all things at one time might by little and little bee directed orderly disposed and brought to perfection by that Vicar his holy Spirit Also in his Booke de praescript hee saith that Christ taken vp into heauen sent the power of his holy Spirit as his Vicar to conduct the faithfull Wee see in these dayes who was held the Vicar of Christ Gainesaid by their owne men Aquinas in Opusc 20. calleth all the Apostles the Vicars of Christ Tolet. in Ioh. 20. 21. saith that Christ instituted his Apostles his Vicars How then was Peter his Vicar for their cannot be a Vicars Vicar If Peter was then the
wood are called idols and diuels But they worship the workes of their hands made of such things and therefore worship idols and diuels Thus God condemneth Imagerie for idols and diuels And this very place may fitly be vnderstood of Papists For first these idolaters here spoken of are such as fall out to bee vnder the sixt trumpet long after the destruction of the Heathen idolaters 2. They are such as be after the Starre is fallen chap. 9. 1. and become a King of the Locusts But what Clergie man since Christ euer wore a Crowne but the Pope 3. They are such as those great Armies verse 16. were raised vp to plague for their idolatry But what can these be but Turkes the scourge of Popish idolaters idolatrous Christians 4. They are such as ouer-ranne the true Religion so as Christ sends out his Word to recouer his from vnder this idolatrie and from among them chap. 10. 11. But who haue spred their idols ouer the Church Not Iewes nor Turkes but Papists And hath not Christ sent out his Word to regaine his from among them 5. And lastly the words chap. 9. 20 21. doe set out Papists 1. They repented not of the works of their hands whē they saw the Easteme Churches ouerthrowne by the Turkes for their idolatrie after the second Nicene Councell there establishing it 2. These committed Murthers Sorceries Fornication and Thefts And doe not all know how these raigne among Papists For murders their massacres of Christians and vnheard of cruelties vpon poore Indians many millions witnesse them For Sorceries is not spirituall Babylon that is Rome full thereof chap. 18. 23 Rome now is that Whore drunke with bloud chap. 17. which deceiued the Nations by her Sorceries chap. 18. 23. For her Fornication she is called the Mother of whoredomes chap. 17. And doe not her Stewes witnesse it What shall I speake how vnder colour of vowed pouertie by Dispensations Pardons Indulgences shee robbed euery Kingdome Therefore these are Papists worshipping idols and diuels and cannot so well bee applyed to any other vnder heauen all the former circumstances seriously and throughly weighed See B. Carleton his Booke of Thanksgiuing how he presseth this text vpon Papists Contraried by Antiquitie Tertul. de idolat God hath forbidden both the making and worshipping of an Idol Now by Idol he meaneth euery forme or representation as himselfe there saith and that the consecration of Images is Idolatry Epiphanius The superstition of Images is vnfit for the Church of Christ He seeing an Image in a Church tare it in sunder hee also exhotred to bring no Images into the Churches as an horrible wickednesse yea though it were the Picture of Christ himselfe Lactantius saith Out of doubt there is no Religion where there is an Image Gregory the Bishop of Neocaesaria saith Concil Nicen. 2. Act. 6. that Heathenisme was the first deuiser and head of Images Enseb l. 7. c. 17. calleth it an heathenish custome Origen against Celsus Common sense doth will men to thinke that God is not delighted with honour of Images made by men And of his owne time hee saith thus We worship no Images In Saint Austins time it is cleere by that which hee writeth on Psal 113. that there were no Images in Churches The Councell at Eliberis or Granada in Spaine decreed that nothing which is honoured of the people should be painted in the Churches The first and sixth Constantinopolitan Councell held against Images that it was not lawfull either to haue the Images of Saints or to worship them And if any from that time durst make or adore them in the Church or at home if of the Clergie he was to be deposed if of the Laity accursed The generall Councell by the Commandement of the Apostolike See at Franckford vnder Charles the great where the Popes Legates were condemned the worship of Images Abb. Vsperg Anno 793. Rhegino Anno 794. Opus illustr Caroli Mag. contra Synod p. 486. l. 4. c. 2. See Alan Cope dial 4. cap. 18. The Ancient Christians of the Primitiue Church had none Clem. Alexand. hort ad Gent. pag. 14. Minutius Foelix Octau Atheuag Legat. Athanasius against the Gentiles saith If a liuing man cannot teach thee to know God how can a carued stocke and a stone doe it that is dead Gregory Bishop of Rome lib 7. Epist 109. commends the zeale of Serenus a Bishop in France who would haue nothing made with hands worshipped and therefore brake the Images which act though Gregorie commended not yet hee would haue him keepe the people from the worship of them The Bishop of Orleance Ionas lib. 1. de cultis Imag. professed his detestation against the worship of Images and held the doers worthy to be cursed Bishop Durandin Rational lib. 1. cap. 3. and Catharin tract de cult Imag. thinke their vse to be dangerous Gainesaid by themselues Polydor. Virgil lib. 6. cap. 13. de inuent rerum writeth that by the testimonie of Ierome it appeareth how in a manner all the ancient holy Fathers condemned the worship of Images for feare of idolatry Erasmus in Catechis saith that by the testimonie of sound and approued Stories it is cleere that till Ieromes time such as were of sound Religion would endure no image either painted or grauen to be set vp in the Churches no not the image of Christ himselfe Holcot in lib. Sap. lect 7. saith that no adoration is due to any Image and that it is not lawfull to adore any Image Agobardus B. of Lyons who liued in Anno 815. saith in Bibl. Paetrum Whosoeuer worshippeth a Picture molten or grauen Statue worships an Idol not God nor Saint nor Angel See Roger Houeden part 1. Annal. fol. 272. where he sheweth how the Church of God detested the Decree of the 2. Nicene about worship of Images Aquinas Hales Albertus Bonauenture Marsilius and nine more cited by D. White in his last Booke pag. 209. doe hold that Adoration of Images was prohibited the Iewes Then such places as bee alledged for Images in the Old Testament by our moderne Papists are but abused Bannes in Tho. 229. par 10. pag. 170. saith that the worship of the Images of Saints is neither expressely nor vnfoldedly taught in holy Scriptures All Scriptures therefore alledged are but abusiuely alledged to beguile the simple Scriptures obiected answered 1. For making Images to be worshipped Exo. 25. 18. And thou shalt make two Cherubims c. Ans This is no warrant now for vs. For we haue a perpetuall law forbidding the making of Images likenesses Exod. 20. to worship them Leu. 26. 1. This binds vs for euer But God is not bound he makes a Law for vs not to himselfe And this commandement which he gaue was extraordinarie for a time and therefore not imitable of vs no more then his command to Abraham to kill his sonne or to Israel to rob the Egyptians are to be warrants for vs to kill or rob any 2. This was not done
signe being called by the thing signified as we see in other Sacraments which must teach vs to expound this as also the rest of the words this Chalice is the new Testament 1. Cor. 11. 25. this is my bloud of the New Testament Math. 26. 28. this is the Chalice the New Testament Luk. 22. 20. and Drinke the Chalice saith S. Paul which they yeeld to be figuratiuely spoken and therefore so must the other Thirdly the name of bread both before the mentioning of the words of Consecration by Saint Paul in 1. Cor. 11. 23. and after is still kept verse 26 27 28. 1. Cor. 10. 16 17. not because only shew of Bread was so to the eye but for that it remained bread indeed and is yet so to feeling and taste as well as to sight Fourthly their Bible telleth vs that heauen truely hath receiued Christ vntill the times of the restitution of all things Acts 3. 21. Till then hee commeth not bodily out of heauen except the bread be heauen it selfe into which at his Ascension he was receiued Fiftly their Bible telleth vs that when Christ commeth hee shall come from heauen visibly so come againe as the Apostles saw him goe vp Act. 1. 11. But they saw him in his body visibly ascend so shall he in body come againe and not in a conceited inuisibilitie into the Sacrament bodily Sixtly their owne Bible teacheth that a body cannot be in two places at one instant of time Mat. 28. 26. He is not here said the Angell and giueth the reason For he is risen Because hee was in another place being risen and gone out of the Sepulchre See Augustine in Ioh. tract 31. shewing that Christ is not in two places at one time the Angell plainely and truely denied him therefore to be there Now wee beleeue him to bee euer bodily in heauen Therefore by an heauenly Angels reason wee may truely say that bodily he is not here in the Sacrament no more then he was in the Sepulchre because he was risen Seuenthly their Bible teacheth that wheresoeuer Christs bodie was at any time hee was discernable by sense and therefore he willeth his Disciples to vse their sense to discerne him Luk. 24. 39. So did Thomas Ioh. 20. 28. But in the Sacrament is no sensiblenesse at all of his bodily presence Eighthly their Bible doth teach that whensoeuer God turned one substance into another or tooke one away and put another in stead thereof that the same was discernable by sense Moses Staffe was visibly a Serpent Dust in Egypt was Lice seene and felt and so the Water was Bloud sensibly and the Water good Wine in Ioh. 2. 9. 10. to the taste But in this change at the Sacrament is no such sensible perception and therefore is there no such thing for God in his miracles deludeth no mans sense Contraried by Antiquity Tertul. aduers Marcionem This is my bodie that is This is a figure of my body Ambros desacra lib. 4. saith that it is a figure of the body and bloud of Christ And speaking of the signes he saith that they remaine the same that they were August in Psal 3. saith that in this Feast the Lord commanded and deliuered the figure of his bodie and bloud to his Disciples And the same Father contra Adamantium cap. 12. saith that wheÌ„ the Lord said This is my body he gaue the signe of his body See more in his Booke de Doct. Chri. lib. 3. cap. 16. calling it a figure and contr Maximinum lib. 3. cap. 22. he calleth the things visible Signes Chrysost ad Caesarium Monachum saith that though the bread hath the name of the Lords body yet the nature of bread remaineth still Theodoret. in Dialo immuta Hee changed the names and gaue his bodie that name which belonged to the signe and to the signe that name which belonged to his body not by changing their nature but by adding grace to nature And in Dial inconfusus hee saith that the mysticall signes after consecration doe not depart from their nature but they abide still in their former substance figure and forme and may be seene and touched as before Cyril in Ios lib. 4. cap. 14. saith that Christ gaue to his faithfull Disciples pieces of bread See farther in Bishop Vsher his last Booke of the controuerse of the Reall presence citing Iustine Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Origen Cyprian Theophilus of Antioch the Author of the harmony of the Gospels Eusebius Acacius Macarius Austin Chrysostome Theodores Ephraemius the Councell of Constantinople Bishops of France in a Synode at Carisiacum Rabanus Also D. White his last Booke pag. 401. citing many and pag. 435. answering the Aduersaries places out of the Fathers Gainsaid by themselues Golasins a Pope de duabus nat Chri. saith that the nature of the Bread and Wine ceaseth not but remaine stil in the propertie of their nature and contra Eutycheten The elements are the image and similitude of the body and bloud of Christ Their Glosse de cons Dist 2. The heauenly Sacrament is called the body of Christ but vnproperly It is impossible that the bread should be the body of Christ Pet. Lombard sent 4. dist 11. si autem c. saith that some iudged and some wrote that the very substance of bread and Wine remained still and of the manner of conuersion he saith he is not able to define Petrus de Aliaco the Cardinall 4. q. 6. Art 2. saith that the opinion which holdeth the substance of bread not to remaine doth not euidently follow of the Scriptures nor in his seeming of the Churches determination Caietan 3. par q. 75. Art 1. pag. 153. saith that in the Gospel there is nothing that compelleth vs to vnderstand them properly See more in Bishop Vsher his last booke of this point Ratrannus Scotus Alfrick Abbot of Malmesbury The Scriptures obiected answered Luk. 22. 15. With desire I haue desired to eate the Passeouer with you before I suffer Answ 1. This Text is vnderstood of the Iewish Passeouer and not of the Lords Supper for the Supper was not called the Pasche or Passeouer Also the whole Text sheweth it to bee â—â— verse 7 8 11 13 15. Secondly euen in this Text is a Sacramentall phrase for here the eating of the Lambe is called the Passeouer which was an act done long before of which this Feast was onely a remembrance and not the thing it selfe Thirdly this Passeouer did Christ certainly eate of with his Disciples but the Bread Wine in the Supper which he instituted for this new sacrament of the new Testament the Apostles ate and dranke of but not a word of Christs eating thereof but onely of the other Iewish Sacrament of which in the Verses next following hee also speakes saying that he would no more drinke of the Vine verse 18. as before he said that he would not eate of the Passeouer verse 16. Ioh. 6. 51. I am the liuing Bread c. Answ This speaketh not
Answ 1. Howsoeuer the profound wisedome of the Gagger makes this euident yet Bellarmine graunts it to bee a darke Scripture and there indeed is not a more obscure text wherein most Expositors are to seeke and hardly can finde to giue themselues satisfaction herein And therefore being in sense darke and doubtfull is not a sufficient proofe in a Controuersie Secondly this so euident a place with the Gagger for Purgatorie the Rhemists could not see to note it nor Lyra nor Thomas nor Hugo de Sancto Charo a Cardinall nor their Glosse nor Caietan much lesse Saint Chrysostome nor Ambrose nor Haymo nor other moe some expounding it one way some another but not of Purgatorie nor of any such thing as may iustly inferre Purgatorie Thirdly the scope of the place is to proue the Resurrection of the dead and not Purgatorie for it is said If the dead rise not at all why are they baptized for the dead Now for them to expound baptized afflicted and afflicted to signifie fasting and praying for the dead and that for those in Purgatorie it is farre from prouing the Apostles scope and the Resurrection from the dead Fourthly whatsoeuer the sense of baptized for the dead may be First it is cleare that here by dead is vnderstood the dead in graue whose bodies were to rise againe and not of soules in Purgatorie Secondly if baptisme here should be afflicting yet to bee baptized for the dead is to bee taken not actiuely for such as baptize that is as our Aduersaries here expound doe afflict themselues but passiuely for such to be afflicted by other Thirdly this reason which the Apostle vseth seemeth to be such a thing as was well knowne and so forcible to perswade to beleeue the Resurrection as the same words are in this one verse twice mentioned But how can our Aduersaries proue that men to afflict themselues by fasting prayer for the dead was so well knowne and practised then in the Church And yet if so how proueth it the Apostles Doctrine touching the Resurrection of the dead and the bodies of men to rise out of the graue or that therefore there is a Purgatorie For the Beleeuers mourned for Steuen and made great lamentation ouer him Act. 8. 2. yet proueth it not a Purgatorie nor that Steuen was in it being a Martyr and the first of all other These three things let the Gagger proue before he build his paper Purgatorie on this Text. Fiftly the words for the dead may bee expounded for the hope of the Resurrection of the dead and the word baptized for afflicted and so the words may bee thus read Else what shall they doe which suffer and endure troubles in hope of the Resurrection of the dead if so be the dead doe not rise at all why are they then afflicted for this hope of the dead to rise againe Thus interpreted it is current enough agreeable to the scope and the next verses 30 31 32. seeme to me to confirme this exposition For the Apostle hauing said Why are they baptized forth with he saith Why stand wee in ieopardie euery houre then he telleth of his dying dayly and of his fighting with beasts at Ephesus and all vpon the hope of the Resurrection professing all to be in vaine no aduantage to him if the dead rise not at all So as here the Apostle expoundeth the word baptized to be all one with to stand in ieopardie to dye dayly and to fight with beasts and the words for the dead his certaine hope of their rising againe which aduantageth him in enduring such troubles and afflictions else it were no matter to liue like Epicures and then say Let vs eate and drinke for to morrow we shall dye Thus this place vnderstood remoueth obscuritie agreeth with the scope hath warrant from the stile of the Apostle is a strong reason to perswade that the dead shall rise againe and may satisfie the minde of him that seekes resolution in so manifold varieties of expositions as haue been hitherto made vpon this place Luk. 16. 9. Make you friends of the vnrighteous Mammon that when you shallneed they may receiue you into the euerlasting habitations Answ 1. The Rhemists looking on this place found no Purgatorie but that Saints departed doe pray for vs. Which what is it to Purgatorie Secondly by they is to hee vnderstood the Angels by the euerlasting habitations meant Heauen How the Gagger could picke out Purgatorie hence I see not Surely hee had a great blazing Torch bigger then all Purgatorie fire else could hee not haue seene Purgatorie thorow this darke creuise Luk. 23. 42. Lord remember mee when thou commest into thy Kingdome Hence saith he the good thiefe presupposed that soules might be holpen after death Answ 1. What then Ergo a Purgatorie Proue this For soules are holpen after death when by the holy Angels they are carried into Abrahams bosome Luk. 16. 22. Secondly the good Thiefe prayeth here to Christ for saluation by him as now he was in the world and ready to die and not through feare of Purgatorie to bee deliuered out of it The Gagger must proue that he beleeued a Purgatorie Thirdly Christs answer cleereth this for hee said This day shalt thou bee with mee in Paradise Christ vnderstood him to pray to goe to heauen and not to bee holpen in Purgatorie and therefore promiseth him Heauen that day whither he himselfe went 2. Machab. 12. 46. It is therefore an holy and healthfull cogitation This is as it is in their Bible to pray for the dead that they may bee loosed from sinnes Answ 1. This booke is Apocryphal and so of no force to perswade in a doubted point of faith Secondly here is no word of Purgatorie though we should admit of the place Thirdly in this Verse see Montanus his Bible there is in the originall no mention of praying for the dead but of making reconciliation Fourthly but to yeeld the translation What then Praying for the dead proueth not Purgatorie For the Greekes pray for the dead and yet beleeue no Purgatorie Fiftly they prayed here for the pardon of sinnes and not for freedome out of Purgatorie Sixtly the parties here prayed for dyed in mortall sinne and were guilty of horrible idolatry forbidden by the Law ver 40. but such as so dye goe not to Purgatorie it is a place for veniall and not for mortall sinners as they teach Seuenthly the mouing cause of their praying and making an offering to send to Ierusalem for a sinne-offering was for that they were mindfull of the Resurrection verse 44. and not that they thought these men to be in Purgatorie This rests to be proued Eighthly and lastly it is cleere that the Author of this booke did not dreame of any Purgatorie For hee maketh the ground of praying for the dead onely the hope of the Resurrection affirming the act otherwise to be superfluous vaine verse 44. Tobie 4. 18. Set thy bread and thy wine vpon
according to his workes Matth. 5. 12. Great is your reward in Heauen So Matth. 10. 42. Rom. 2. 6. 1. Cor. 3. 8. Reuel 22. 12. Ierem. 31. 16. Answ 1. There is Rom. 4. 4. a reward of mercy and grace which we acknowledge and not of desert and merit for a reward may be of bounty aboue any due to the partie but so cannot merit Ambrose Epist lib. 1. There is one kinde of reward of liberalitie and grace and another the wages of vertues and recompence of labours Secondly the reward here being vnderstood of eternall life must needs be of mercy for eternall life saith the Apostle is the gift of God Rom. 6. 23. and not mans purchase A gift is free and cannot be merited by workes for to him that works the reward is reckoned not of grace but of debt Rom. 4. 4. Heauen then being Gods gift cannot bee due for workes to make God become indebted to man Thirdly the Rewarder here is God Now he rewards two wayes either in meere iustice or in iustice and mercy both In meere iustice so rewardeth he the wicked iustly deseruing damnation In iustice and mercy both so beleeuers in Christ In iustice first in respect of Christs meriting reward for his secondly for that God is iust in his promise and hauing promised a reward in his iustice he will performe it In mercy yet this is to vs first in respect of our selues deseruing no such reward then in respect of the mouing cause which is his owne good pleasure to make such a promise and to accept vs in Christ and so to reward vs. Fourthly the reward here is promised to the persons He will reward euery man and not the worke for the person makes the worke accepted as Abel did his offering and not the worke the Gen. 4. Heb. 11. person with God Fifthly it is not here said for his workes as noting any cause of mans reward but according to his workes shewing the qualitie of the works as they may excell one another and how our workes should be the measure according to which God would mete and proportion out the heauenly rewards For as men here excell in vertues so shall they in glory and therefore of such as suffer for Christ hee saith Great is your reward Matth. 5. Sixtly if workes were rewarded yet is it in mercy and not for the merit of them for are they not imperfect as before is proued Againe are they not his owne fruits of his owne Spirit and can wee merit to giue to God his owne Moreouer what equalitie is there betweene heauen the reward and the worke wrought None at all And therefore the reward is in mercy and not in merit 2. Cor. 5. 10. Wee must all appeare before the Iudgement Seat of Christ that euery one may receiue the things done in his bodie according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad Answ 1. Here is intended onely that in generall there shall be a retribution of reward and punishment And therefore the diuers meane of procuring both these is not specified but a phrase vsed which may extend to both according to that he hath done in either kinde Otherwise for the one namely for doing badly might truely properly haue bin said For the merit or demerit of euill workes punishment is due But because it could not be said so of the other therefore the word according is vsed And so the scope of the place reacheth onely to shew that there shall be a manifestation of our workes and retribution for them But if we will needs particularize here of the manner of rewarding good workes then wee say that the Iudge here Iesus Christ comes not to reward his according to their merit with heauen for it is said that hee giueth to them eternall life Ioh. 10. 28. By his bloud himselfe obtained it for them Heb. 9. 12. They doe not then merit that which is gift and therefore he proceeds not here according to any merit in them 1. Cor. 4. 5. Then shall euery man haue praise of God Answ 1. Here is no merit spoken of Secondly the person is praised and not his workes and this God doth of his goodnesse for our faithfulnesse Matth. 25. 21 23. but not for the worthinesse of the worke done Thirdly Saint Paul verse 4. the very next verse before saith Though I know nothing by my selfe yet am I not thereby iustified He conceited therefore no merit Fourthly the praise here intended specially is in regard of sinceritie of teaching whereby Saint Paul implyeth that other false and proud teachers were not so praise-worthy as some of the Corinthians thought being seduced by them 1. Cor. 9. 17 18. I haue a reward verse 25. They striue to obtaine an incorruptible Crowne Answ 1. This reward is of mercy and not of merit for the incorruptible Crowne that is Heauen is obtained by Christ and is his gift to vs therefore not obtained by merit Secondly our obtaining by striuing is the obtaining of the assurance of the Crowne in our selues and not the obtaining of the Crowne it selfe through the worthinesse of the striuing seeing we are commanded to striue Luk. 13. 24. Now that which is done of duty cannot merit Thirdly the Apostle first in verse 16. telleth vs that in doing his dutie he hath nothing to glory of Then in verse 17. he applyeth the reward not to the worke wrought but to his willingnesse in working yet he implyeth that there may be an vnwillingnesse and doth hee not acknowledge Rom. 7. 18. that where a will is yet there may want abilitie to performe Lastly in verse 18. hee plainely expresses what hee meaneth there by reward not heauen but in preaching to make the Gospell of Christ without charge Hebr. 11. 26. He had respect to the recompence of reward Answ 1. The blundering Friers wheresoeuer they finde in Scripture reward presently cry out that they haue found merit How oft haue we told thē out of the ancient Fathers nay out of ciuil experience that reward merit be not alwaies Relatiues that there is a reward of grace as well as of due debt Rom. 4. 4 Secondly who knowes not but that euen here men requite labours without desert Thirdly Moses had respect to the recompence vpon Gods promise made and not vpon the merit of his owne doing for hee makes not his owne act the procurer of the recompence but the certainty of the recompence the setter of him forward to the worke Psal 18. 20. The Lord rewarded mee according to my righteousnesse c. Answ 1. Dauid speaketh in his life time of that which God had done for him in deliuering him from Saul and from his enemies which dealt most vniustly with him here therefore first Dauids righteousnesse is his righteousnesse towards men which God mercifully looked vpon and not any righteousnesse of his before God for this Dauid disclaimed Psal 130. 3. and 143. 2. Secondly the reward here is not heauen but
yea glorying as if we had in possession that which we expect to haue and neuer confoundeth nor maketh vs ashamed that is faileth vs not of that which wee looke for but wee finde surely what hope expecteth then much more are wee made confident by faith it selfe and particularly assured of that which God hath promised euen remission of sinnes and eternall saluation seeing hope is the fruit of faith Contraried by Antiquitie Tertul. in lib. de Baptis Faith saith hee hath safe securitie of saluation Cyprian de Mortal God hath promised vnto thee when thou departest out of this world immortalitie and eternity and doest thou doubt thereof This were not to know God this is to offend Christ the Master of Beleeuers with the sinne of vnbeliefe this is for a man being in the house of faith to be without faith Ambros in Psal 118. Serm. 7. pag. 641. saith The iust man knoweth that eternall life is laid vp for him Austin on Psal 149. There is a kinde of glorying in the conscience when thou knowest thy faith to bee sincere thy hope certaine and thy loue without dissembling And Tom. 2. de verbis Domini Serm. 28. All thy sinnes are forgiuen thee Thou art made a good sonne of an euill seruant Therefore presume thou not of thy working but of the grace of Christ for saith the Apostle Ye are saued by grace Here therefore is not arrogancie but faith to make knowne what thou hast receiued is not pride but deuotion Hilary in Matth. Can. 5. The Lord will haue vs hope for the kingdome of heauen without any doubting for otherwise there is no iustification of faith if faith it selfe be vncertaine Fulgentius lib. 1. de pradest ad Monimum The iust liuing by faith saith confidently I beleeue to see the goodnesse of the Lord in the land of the liuing Macarius hom 17. Although speaking of the godly they are not yet entred into the whole inheritance prepared for them in the world to come yet through the earnest which they now receiue they are as certaine of it as if they were already crowned and raigning Bernard in Epist 190. ad Innocent PP If faith wauer then is our faith in vaine and our Martyrs were fooles to suffer such bitter things for vncertaine rewards And a little after he saith citing Austin for it That faith is not held of him that hath it in his heart to be there by coniecture or in opinion but by certaine knowledge the conscience giuing witnesse thereto Gainesaid by their owne men The Diuines of Collen say That we are iustified by faith as Antididagm Colon. pag. 29. by the apprehending cause such a faith as without all doubting assureth vs of the pardon of our sinnes through Christ The same Diuines in Enchirid. Concil Colon. tit de iustif cap. Non habes ergo confesse this for truth that to a mans iustification it is required that he certainly beleeue not onely in general that they which truely repent haue their sinnes forgiuen them by Christ but that his own selfe hath also forgiuenesse through Christ by faith Now if faith can assure vs certainly and without doubting of our iustification and remission of sinnes then so it can assure vs of life euerlasting Bishop Fisher in opuscul de fide misericord axiom 10. saith that if we will enter into heauen we must not come with a double heart or wauering faith but with that which is altogether without doubting and most certaine Ioh. Bacon Catharin cited by Perer in Rom. 8. D. 7. Num. 27. 30. select disput Tom. 2. affirme that the knowledge of faith is equall in certainty and farie aboue and more certaine then all other knowledges Isengren pro Concil Trid. de certit grat pag. 217. saith that their Diuines all the chiefest which hee had read for that purpose though they did not allow a man to be altogether secure and free from all care heedfulnesse yet with one voice teach that we must not tremble or mistrust but haue a firme hope and certaine confidence and saith further that this is the doctrine of all the Schoolemen and Fathers since the Apostles Scotus 3. D. 23. pag. 46. As I beleeue God is three in person and one in essence so doe I also beleeue my selfe to haue faith infused whereby I beleeue this Bannes in Thom. 22. Euery one that beleeueth seeth he doth beleeue Medina 1. 2. q. 112. Art 5. Caietan ibid. and Bannes too dare affirme that a Christian man by the infallible certaintie of faith which cannot be deceiued certainly knoweth himselfe to haue supernaturall faith Dom. Soto Apol. cap. 2. holdeth that a man may attaine to that certainty of his owne grace that he may without all doubting be as sure thereof as he is that there is a Citie called Rome See diuers other testimonies cited at large by Doctor White In his way to the true Church Digres 43. Num. 9. 10. wherehe sheweth that such as will not allow the certainty of faith yet hold sure and firme certainty of hope as excludeth all doubtfulnesse touching remission of sinnes And can they thus allow it in hope which is but a fruit of faith and hath all it firme and sure certainly from faith and not admit it in faith it in saith it selfe This is nothing but wretched peruersenesse of spirit against the cleere light of truth Before I come to the obiected Scriptures some things are needfull to be knowne both more cleerely to shew that which we hold that we may not be mistaken as also to helpe to the better answering of such places as be brought forth against this particular assurance of a mans saluation First that this iustifying sauing and applicatiue faith comprehending in it both historicall and temporarie faith is euer accompanied with other graces of Gods Spirit as with knowledge 2. Cor. 4. 13 14. and 5. 1 6. with hope 1. Pet. 1. 21. with Loue and Charitie Gal. 5. 6. Ephes 6. 23. 2. Tim. 1. 14. 1. Thes 5. 8. 2. Thes 3. 6. with holinesse and sanctification Iude vers 20. 2. Thes 2. 13. with puritie of heart 1. Tim. 1. 5. Act. 15. 9. with a good conscience 1. Tim. 1. 5 19. ioy Phil. 1. 25. with obedience Reu. 14. 13. with good workes Iam. 2. 22. Heb. 11. with open profession 2. Cor. 4. 13. Act. 4. 20. Rom. 10. 10. with Prayer Iam. 1. 6. and 5. 15. Iude verse 20. Rom. 10. 14. with godly sorrow feare holy reuenge on a mans selfe 1. Cor. 7. 11. with patience in aduersitie Iam. 1. 3. 2. Thes 1. 4. Heb. 6. 12. Reuel 13. 10. and with many other vertues 1. Cor. 7. 11. 2. Pet. 1. 5 6 7. 2. Tim. 2. 22. and 3. 10. 1. Tim. 4. 12. Reuel 2. 19. 1. Cor. 6. 11. So that such as haue this faith are no Solifidians as our Aduersaries please in malice to call vs. Secondly that the graces haue their proper operations which this faith doth not hinder but rather they