catching at and perverting expressions Again to our saying they reproached us for owning our selves part of the Nation guilty of sin with them He taxeth us For finding fault with the Teachers and people and yet now we are joyned with them and guilty of sin with them and that I joine my self with the blind watchmen and dumb dogs and then taxe us with hypocrisie and deceit for one while declaring against the Teachers and people of the Nation and another while to joine with them But marke Reader that I said not we joined our selves with them in their sinning but in confessing sins that is we consesse ours with theirs nor say we that we are guilty of all their sins but guilty of sin And will not his charges of us for this fall upon the Prophet Isaiah did not he one while inviegh against the watchmen and the people yea many times and yet another while joine in himself among them in confessing the Nations sins in Isa 59.10 11 12 13. when he said we grope for the wall like the blind and we grope as if we had no eyes and our transgressions are multiplyed before thee and our sins testifie against us Did Isaiah speak those things of himself and the Disciples as a distinct party from the body of the Nation or as joining in the Nation with themselves If as a distinct party would not George say then they were hypocrites for faulting others and being as bad themselves If as joining themselves in with the Nation were they not guilty of the same that George throwes upon us if we be therefore guilty as he saies Surely all that read these things may see herein G. W.'s weaknesse My charges of them denying Christ to have that body glorified in heaven in which he suffered is not disproved by my saying they granted the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand because as elsewhere we have cleared it they meant equivocally in that saying and not of the personal body of Christ but to that and their denyal of the resurrection of mens bodys we have spoken fullyer in our answer to their book against us Nor will my saying they are persons of no judgement in these things save them from being guilty of indeavouring to subvert the faith about them seeing judgement in Scripture expression signifies right understanding as in Isa 42.14 and 59.8 and they that have no understanding to do good may be wise to do evil as the Prophet saies Jer. 4.22 To that of our Saviour Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect alledged by G. W. to proove that some men are without sin here I noted That men may in Scripture sense be said to be perfect that have sin in them Instancing in Job and Asa And 2. That exhortations to things prove not those things to be perfectly attained by any here nor doth the Scripture ever say Let not sin be in you c. The first of these George passes over which would he have defended himselfe to purpose he should not have done To the 2. he saies To what end or effect then was his exhortation What must men be under the commands after death which they had in their life time and not till then fulfill them here 's darkeness indeed saith he made manifest and the command put a far off To that consider are all commands to no end and effect that are not fulfilled by them to whom they are given Sure then many commands given of God must be concluded to be so for how many commands of his are broken by men not fulfilled of them Neh. 9.29 Jer. 32.23 Shall we say therefore they were to no end or effect Sure his end is that we should presse in his strength after what is commanded to our ability knowing that he accepts through Christ our endeavour though we attain not here its perfection and that where we are short we acknowledge it and in the sense of it being humbled in our selves give glory to God in and for Christ in whom we are and by whom we shall be made perfect as Paul said of himselfe to will was present with him even to will all that the commandment requires but how to perform it he found not yet was not the commandment without end or effect in as much as in the inner man he delighted in it and groaned for the day of perfect liberty when there should be no let to do it perfectly and thanked God in Christ Jesus in whom he being perfect was not under condemnation for what he found not as for being under commands after death I say men shall fulfill commandments after death given in this life for must not the spirits of just men love God after the bodily death and in the resurrection yea shal they not then love him with all their heart more perfectly than now they do when they more perfectly injoy him And yet they are commanded now to love him So that the darknesse appears in G. W. To the other that the Scripture saies not any where Let not sin be in you He saies Is it not all one to say be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect or wash you make yee clean keep Gods commandment love and serve him with all the heart which must be fulfilled then what part of man must be a subject for sin to dwell in while he lives here To the first of these the saying Be ye perfect c. Is not the saying Let not sin be in you Those words are not these no more necessarily included in them than Let no weaknesse infirmity or mortality be in you or no ignorance of any thing in heaven or earth seeing God is as perfectly free from them as from sin but the sayings of Scripture are to be interpreted according to their scope which there appears to be perfect in testifying or extending love to enemies as well as friends as God doth As God is so perfect in charity as to love and do good to the evil and good so would Christ have his disciples in an answerable sense which how G. W. and the Quakers faile in their bitternesse and reproaches sufficiently evidence Nor is it all one to say Wash you make you clean and let no sin be in you for these phrases alluding to the washings under the Law as it was not one and the same there to say Wash you from some uncleannesse defiling the flesh and let no such unclean or defiling humor as of blood or other matter be in your bodies for the cleanest body had such humors in it as issuing out upon it would defile it So neither is it all one to say Wash you from your sins and defilements which is done in confessing and denying them and let no sin be in you the being of sin in men being not imputed were not consented to or sided with no more than the being of unclean humors within the body were accounted to men when they did
figure and why is it translated image instead of figure if the word there used is none of those words elsewhere in the Scriptures translated by the word figure besides that he corrupts the text and saies the figure of his substance instead of the image of his person but what if it had been read the expresse figure of his Fathers substance doth that prove his coming was a figure too so then to prove him a Deceiver I have denyed and do deny what he saies to be true if in his question he imply affirmatively either that those words be so read or that they prove Richards saying that he defends the falsenesse of what he adds to what he calls my reason is before spoken to 2. His answer to my third question prevaricates for Rich. Hubberthorne by G. Whiteheads pleading for his saying said more than he supposes that Christ was an example or the expresse figure of the Fathers substance but what is it all one to be an example and the expresse figure of the Fathers substance that they are put so together as if they amounted to the same thing are all examples then in the Scripture the expresse figure of the Fathers substance but besides that he in answering leaves out and durst not touch the tearms of my question as that Jesus was a real man consisting of a real humane body and Soul and that he was really conceived and born in the natural womb of a corporal Virgin in such fence a Virgin as other Virgins be c. he durst not speak so distinctly but hides himself in such general tearmes as might keep him from being so easily seen 3. He gives the go by to the fourth question too and plaies the prevaricator in the last clauses of it as is before sufficiently noted 4. He hides himself in his answer to the 5th and leaves out the latter part of it for in the former part the word◠by which their sins are taken away those words by which are equivocal and are so subtilly placed as he may mean that by their receiving him their sins are taken away and not by the suffering and dying of the man Jesus c. 5. In his answer to the sixth he plainly enough casts mists before his readers eyes to dazle him that he might not discerne that he believes no Angles or created spirits distinct from God and the spirits of men and that are in other visible creatures and yet his intimate joyning with the Sadduces in denying them appears clearly enough to those whose eyes can see through his mists for he implyes it 's to believe above what is written to believe that there are Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in man and in other visible creatures and by his question where I read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures what doth he but imply his unbelief or denyal of any such thing To answer briefly to the question I say that though I do not read in just so many words put together that saying yet I find it clearly in the Scriptures in every part of it as to say 1. That there are Angels and Spirits I read in Heb. 1.7.14 that they are created is also both there implyed and in Ephe. 3.9 where it is said that God created all things by Jesus Christ and in Col. 1.16 all things were created by him that are in heaven and that are in earth whether visible and invisible c. so then there being such things as Angels and spirits those Angels things in heaven Mark 13.32 Angels in heaven and all things in heaven and earth being created of God by Christ it necessarily followes that they be creatures and created also 3. That they are distinct from God whether as in man or in heaven as more usually he is said to be is as evident if we first shew what it is to be distinct now that is distinct from another thing that is not that thing as the Soul is distinct from the body because it is not the body and the body is distinct from the Soul because it is not the Soul and the eye is distinct from the sight because the eye may be without sight and the servant is distinct from the master because he is not the master so the Angels are distinct from God and Christ because they are not God nor Christ but created by God and Christ and made ministring spirits and sent forth from God to such purpose and that they are distinct from all other visible creatures is evident because they are not any of the other creatures visible or invisible but are a distinct kind of creature themselves distinctly named from them and that have distinctly some of them appeared when made visible to the sight of men without the bodys and beings of all other creatures as in those that ministred to Christ and that appeared to Daniel to Peter to Paul to Cornelius and divers others which were neither properly men nor women nor any other creature distinct from Angels or ministring spirits c. So that that question implies great ignorance and unbelief of the Scriptures as also his adding that if I can shew him any such Angel or created spirit that is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then I show some ground for such a faith this with his changing my words which were distinct from men from what is in man in other visible creatures into another form viz. distinct from him that made them and from all other creatures implies that he thinks there is no creature but what is visible or may be seen sure his other senses may confute such a fancy for did he ever see any mans Soul or see the wind that blows and yet I trow these be creatures but why will he not believe more then I can shew him Angels be of themselves invisible pitch their tents about men who yet see them not as Ps 34.7 with 2 Kin. 6.16 17. but I have shewed him in the Scripture if he have any eyes of understanding to see with that there was and truly is an Angel Gabriel sent of God and not God himself who is distinct from all other men Angels and creatures besides him they none of them being him yea many thousand such shal Christ appear with at his coming as in Mat. 16.27 2 Thes 1.7 so that his falshood and impiety appears in what followes in the answer as that the Scriptures is not a rule for any such faith nor doth speak any such thing 6. And his Answer to the 7th Query joyned with his former answer proves him a direct Sadducee to them that can understand him for as his answer to the 6th denies intimately and yet plainly enough that there be many such Angels and Spirits as the Scripture declares so his answer to the 7th denies the resurrection of the body as will appear if he will clearly speak out his minde in explication of his said answer for to that query what it is of men that shall rise again after the bodily death he answers That which shall rise againe after death out of the grave is the seeds and each seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into everlasting life and the other into condemnation which though it be the most positive answer of any he gives freest from reviling language yet cannot be understood unlesse it be known what be those two seeds whether they be not the wheat and the Tares spoken of Mat. 13.37 38 or what else they be and who sowes or sowed them and when and where they be sown and what be the graves they be in and whether they be but two seeds in all the world over or two in every man one the incorruptible seed the other the corruptible seed and whether they be sown or raised after the bodily death of men or only after some spiritual death of the feeds for I named after the bodily death and he leaves out the word bodily and so speaks equivocally and whether be each of these seeds a man seeing the Apostle saies not every seed but every man shall rise in his own order and whether did the Apostle forget one of those seeds when he saies it is sown in weaknesse it is raised in power when of two he should have said they are sown in weaknesse they are raised in power and whether is either of these seeds when it s sown a natural body and either of them when they rise a spiritual body seeing the Apostle saies it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body and what be the two bodies they shall rise with are they two in every man or be they humane bodies or bodies of men and why saies he the one into everlasting life the other into condemnation and why not unto everlasting life and unto condemnation and why is not the condemnation said to be everlasting by him as well as the life Those things I challenge him for explaining his answer before it can be seen to agree with the Apostles Doctrine of the Resurrection 7. For the eighth query he in his answer leaves out the word Bodily again and so tels us not of any hell men go into or their souls after the death of their bodies but prevaricates and hides himself again nor proves that eternal wrath shall give up any that shall be in it as it 's said hell and Death shall 〈◊〉 20.13 But if Hell be the reward of all Lyers Deceivers Hirelings and Hypocrites what will become of Richard Hubberthorne who hath told so many falshoods and delt so deceitfully and hypocritically in those his answers if he repent not let the Reader judge John Horne FINIS
said in their Book the Saints that were then alive remained He saies I wrested their words and made a false construction of them contrary to the end and intent of them for what they said he saith was against our imaginations who look he saies carnally for the coming of Christ as many of the World do of whom Christ said I go away and the world seeth me no more John 14. Ans That I wrested not his words let their words and mine being compared witnesse They said as for that 1 Thes 4.15 our quotation they answered to was 1 Thes 4.15 16. concerning the coming of the Lord from heaven which phrase is v. 16. not the 15th though they both speak of the same coming that coming of Christ the Saints that were then alive remained to it Now from that I inferred that if they remained to that coming wherein they that are found alive shall not prevent them that sleep then they remained to that coming in which the dead in Christ even the dead bodies of the Saints that sleep in such sence as it 's said that Stephen fell asleep when he dyed shall be raised and the living changed c. Now let the Reader read 1 Thes 4.15.16 and see if that doth not necessarily follow and whither that be not the coming of the Lord there spoken to to which that phrase we that live and remain is coupled in verse 15 16 and 17. So that if the Apostles and Saints then living did remain to the coming of Christ from Heaven there spoken of as they said then did they remain till his coming with a shout and the voice of the Archangel and the dead in Christ being raised as is evident And I did not wrest their words besides the drift of them only they meant not indeed that they lived to the Resurrection of the dead bodies of the Saints though of that the Apostle there speaks because they believe no such thing but undermine it as I charged them That we carnaly looke for the coming of Christ as many of the world do is not only their reproof of us but an intimate blaspheming of the truth for we expressed no other looking for the coming of Christ from Heaven but that spoken to in 1 Thes 4.15 16. Philip. 3.21 which here they reproach as an imagination of ours as earnally looking for him as if it was but a carnal imagination to think that Christ shall ever so descend and come in like manner from heaven as the Disciples see him go up into heaven that is visibly and bodily by which reproach they are more made manifest to be Deceivers and such as ought to be accounted accursed by us as underminers of the hope of the Gospel nor doth Christ say in John 14. as G. secretly implies that the world shall see him no more he shall come no more visibly to them but the world after a little while seeth me no more or not yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is in the present time seeth me not yet or no more because he is now only to be seen in the spirit by faith whilst he is in bodily a bsence and the world hath not that faith by which to see him He saith He vindicated those words of theirs and witnessed to the several comings of Christ as he was revealed to the Saints from glory to glory How he vindicated their words both the relation of our discourse which he confirmes herein to be true and that he had no cause to fault me for saying his answers were to that purpose as I have related them which I added because I did not pretend to nor could I relate every word of his answer with all the circumstances tautologies and circumlocutions of them for to the same purpose as he here expresses I related and what he saith here shews unlesse by vindicating their words he mean as a distinct thing from witnessing to the several comings of Christ as he was revealed to the Saints c. what he alledged from the next Chapter about sleeping and from Jo. 5.25 about the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God and from 1 Thes 1.10 Of the Thessalonians waiting from the coming of Christ from Heaven and then also he both confirmes my relation that mentions those answers before his talking of the several degrees of Christs revealing himself to the Saints and so that he falfly cavils afterward when he saies that in pag. 11. I lay down many words that he never spake for there are not many words of his laid down in that page as the Reader thereof may see and what is laid down as his I dare call God and the Auditory to witnesse I have not wronged him in yea and he himself in this answer acknowledges divers of them and also how sorrily he vindicated their words or rather how grosly he prevaricated instead of vindicating them alledging the sleeping in security against which the Apostle warnes them 1 Thes 5.6 as an interpretation of the sleeping in Jesus about which in 1 Thes 4.13 14 15. he comforts them and the raising the dead in sins 1 Joh. 5.25 as answering to the rising of the dead in Christ 1 Thes 4 16. and the coming of Christ from Heaven which the believing Thessalonians that had turned from dumb Idols waited for as all one with that efficacy of the voice of Christ causing the dead in sins to hear and hearing to live spoken of John 5.25 Such a vindication of their words was but a more evident manifestation of their ignorance and corruption He adds that he Never denyed the coming of the Lord from Heaven when he shall bring with him them that sleep in Jesus and raise the dead in Christ nor ever said that that was already over and past As he saies I belyed him That he in so many expresse words denyed the coming of Christ from Heaven when he shall bring with him them that sleep I never charged him nor did he ever confesse that coming that bringing with him them that sleep in him and raising the dead in Christ the Apostle there speaks of but undermines it while he saies that the Saints then alive remained to it And calls our expecting it but an Imagination of ours and a carnal looking for him yea and though he did not in expresse words directly say it is over and past yet his saying the Saints then alive namely when the Apostle so wrote remained to it clearly implies it for is not remained a word of the time past he said not they do or shall remain to it but remained in the time past and over Thinks he we cannot understand words when we hear them But he intimates his crafty meaning in saying he never said that was already over and past a few line after When he saies What confusion would I charge upon them and is that a strange thing to find them in confusion as to say the coming of Christ at which the dead in him
dost thou rather believe all those things to be only Allegorically spoken 4. And if thou dost believe that that Jesus the very Christ was indeed a real personal man whether dost thou believe that he really and verily and in a real and very body of flesh dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day from the dead and therein after 40 daies conversing by times with his disciples ascended or was taken up into heaven and be those things also only figuratively to be taken 5. And whether dost thou believe that the sufferings or dyings of that man in any such real body of flesh and his rising again in the same body and ascending is truly availeable to the taking away or procuring pardon for any mans sin and obtaining blessing and salvation for men or dost thou thy self believe to be saved from thy sin and from destruction by vertue thereof yea or nay 6. Whether dost thou indeed believe that there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in men and in other visible creatures yea or nay 7. And if neither the bodies of men that die and go to the grave shall ever be raised out of their graves to a sensible life again nor as Geo. Whitehead implies in some questions sent us the souls of the wicked after death shall come out of Hell again to receive any further judgement Whatof the wicked shall be raised up again after their bodily death and judged to eternal punishment as John 5.29 Mat. 25.46 Is it any thing or nothing and if any thing What is it 8. Doth the soul of the wicked at or after the bodily death go to any hell in which they sustain or feel any torment and if so what is the hell they go to and are tormented in I challenge thee to return me if thon darest a plain and direct answer to these queries according to the very truth and belief of thy heart not giving revilings instead of answers but observing 1 Pet. 3.15 John Horne This was sent him April 19. to which I have as yet received no answer from him this fourteenth of May so that I hope his mouth is stopt with them However for any plain positive and sober answer John Horne Richard Hubberthornes Letter in answer to my Queries is thus London 6th day 4th Mon. 1660. John Horne I Have received a paper of Queries from thee by which it is easily known to be thine by thy preface of lies which is thy usual and accustomed manner and marke of the beast in all thy papers thou saiest I am guilty of seven or eight falshoods but dost not mention any of them neither dost answer my paper which proves to the contrary So thou being so often reproved and yet hardens thy heart against it so if thou wilt be filthy thou maist be filthy still and if thou wilt be unconvinced when the truth hath been so plainly and often declared unto thee thou mayst be wicked still Answ As unto thy first query I can clear my self from being a deceiver or false Teacher in all things which I have spoken and can also prove thee to be a false accuser in saying that I said published that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which thing I never said nor published and so thy query is grounded upon a lye But those that did say and publish that falshood of me was thy brethren the hirelings and deceivers at Newcastle upon Tyne and so thou takes their lies to be a strength unto thy own And as for the believing Samaritans they did know by the spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh was indeed the Saviour of the world and Paul was a true Apostle when he proved that Jesus was the very Christ as Acts 9.22 And that which Christ himselfe said in the first of John 4. and 2. was true but what is all that unto thee to ground thy lye upon as above mentioned Answ As for thy second query calling George Whitehead a silly deceiver for justifying of my saying in his answer to Cambridge queries What G. Whitehead said in that answer to Cambridge Queries was truth and was a question put forth unto them which neither they nor thou hast answered which Query was this Could Christ have been said to have been transfigured if his coming in the flesh had not been a figure or example till his glory was revealed hast thou not read that he was the expresse figure of his Fathers substance instead of which it is translated he is the expresse image c. And if thou wilt prove him a deceiver first deny what he hath said or that it is so written which if thou do affirme thou goest but about to turne the truth of God into a lye and if thou do confesse thou ownes what G. Whitehead hath said and so not prove him a deceiver and as for thy reason to contradict it which is that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 In this thou hast appeared very ignorant void of reason and true comparison for the Apostles and believers were neither in the power nor form of godly men before the renewing of their minds but were children of wrath and were in the form and power of wicked men Answ Againe Thy third Query is grounded upon the same lye with the first if Christs coming in the flesh be but a figure which was never spoken by me nor any of us but if we should say that Christ was an example or was the expresse figure of the Fathers substance yet thereby we do not say that Christs coming in the flesh is but a figure And as for my belief of Jesus he was real man and had a real body prepared for him and in it both soul and spirit power and life which was immortal and Eternal in which body was real flesh and blood and was born of the Virgine according to the Scripture Answ As to the fourth Query that which thou queriest of me thou dost not believe thy selfe that Christ in that very body of flesh and blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again but thou saist with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven so then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine which thou saist is real flesh and blood and so according to thy own writings not the same But we do believe that in the very same real body in which he after his resurrection did converse with his Disciples is ascended into heaven Answ To thy fifth Query I say That the suffering and dying of that man Jesus and his ascending into heaven is truly available unto those which do receive him by which their sins are taken away and they saved from destruction but those that do not receive him but reject him his light and spirit his suffering dying and rising
in glory and his glorious Kingdome out of our Prayers for that is in the world to come But sure that world is neither in G. W's Faith nor hope and how should it be in his Prayers nor is that the end with him of preaching and praying seeing he implies that if it be not to be had in this world It 's against the end for which the Discples of Christ prayed as he taught them His calling me Scornful tempter and blind unbeliever for saying if the Quakers have no sin in them let them manifest it by living without bread I passe as proceeding from his Gall and tell him there is difference between Christs and other mens cases He was made under infirmities for our sins sake but if any of us have no sin I know no reason why we should be infirme nor find I any thing from Christ that implies men shall need to pray for dayly bread longer than for forgivenesse of and keeping from sin yea even then when the Disciples are come to that perfect charity as to make their own forgivenesse of others a rule after which they desire God to forgive yet they are willed yet to aske forgivenesse of God and that is a state above G. W's who is ever and anon at his bitter words and reproaches as the Reader of him may see His asking How men may be kept from sin if they may not be kept from it according to me Intimately charges a lye upon me or discovers great ignorance and deceit in him David was kept from his iniqnitie yet he calls it his iniquity a man that hath sin in him may be kept from its getting dominion over him as David implies Psal 19.12 13. And from committing it or consenting to it as Paul was when he saith it was no more he that did it but sin that dwelt in him That Their roote is rottennesse though they be appointed as a judgement is as understandable as that the Caldeans were wicked and unholy and yet ordained for judgement of God And as their being unholy hindreâ— not the holynesse of Gods Judgement so neither doth the rottennesâ— of these mens roots at all reflect upon the soundnesse of Gods judgements seeing he makes use of wicked men whose roots are rottennesse to be for his rods and judgements Lastly to his casting the lye upon me in what I related of their uncivil and impudent posting me up as going away to avoid them because he saies those words were not in it I answer what if those very expresse words were not in it things may be couched in expressions where the very same words are not expresly mentioned as the Doctrine of the Resurrection of Christ shewed to be in Moses doctrine though the word Resurrection is not expressed therein their words in what they posted were thus This is to give notice that the said I. H. was lawfully called which was false for a call to break promise was not lawfull by the Q. whom he so accused so publickly to prove if he could what he so promised and that he had sufficient notice being three daies aforehand of the time wherein we desired to meet him wherein also their falsehood and wikednesse appears Their falshood for I had notice but the day before they came whereas I was to have notice two or three daies before that Their wickednesse in that it appears they would dave tyed me to have met them on the Saturday which I knew must have been on purpose to spend me that I might have been disabled from preaching the following day But in stead of performing his promise mind against the Q. he the said I. H. went out of the Town and so hath not performed his promise against the Qua. which is false for I did not promise to do it at their next coming but expresly excepted against it because of my fore-ingaged journy neither can he And a little after they say People hereby may discerne the diceit of these men how having spread many rayling and false accusations against the Q. when they are tryed have refused to meet us publikely Now Reader compare these shameful falsities and see if they amount to lesse than an impudent suggestion that I went out of Town to refuse making good my charge which that I have made good through the strength of God both my former relation and this vindication of it clearly testify What they note as lies in me stand firme for truths both as to my assertions so far as asserted by me without his alterations and as to my charges of them as is made manifest and George and the Quakers are found clearly to be the Deceivers and Lyers as in these following particulars amongst others in saying or implying 1. That I have not proved my charge but bragged of a victory where was none 2. That they come as the Apostles because they have confessed fins though now they do not as they the Apostles did when Apostles 3. That they the Quakers have forsaken their sins yet they are found in lies and bitternesse 4. That the judgements of God are such as his judgements as the nature of the things or persons that be used by him as Judgements 5. That David boasted of finlesnesse in him where he calls iniquity his 6. That they that say the Saints have sin in them plead for sin and so they make the Apostles and Prophets pleaders for sin 7. That the Apostles were without sin in this world as Christ is contrary to their own sayings in 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. Jam. 3.2 8. That not whosoever believes Jesus to be the Christ is born of God for many he saies believeâ— that are not born of God contrary to 1 John 5.1 9. That the Apostles and Prophets when they confert sins were not true believers nor born of God 10. Nor the Disciples when Christ taught them to call God Father c. 11. That some men living are so sinlesse in themselves that if God should enter into judgement with them yet they may be justified in Gods sight contrary to Psal 143.2 12. That Asa's heart was perfect all his daies but not all his life-time 13. That persons of no judgement or right understanding can affirme or deny nothing contrary to Jer. 4.22 14. That Christ's coming from Heaven spoken of 1 Thes 4.15 16 17. is either often in diverse ages or else over and past already 15. That the Redemption of the body waited for and groaned after by the Apostles and Saints they had it in this life before they deceased 16. That the Saints waited not for things to be given them many hundred years after contrary to Heb. 11.13 39 40. 17. That our looking for the coming of Christ from Heaven personally and visibly to raise the dead Saints that are bodily dead is but our imagination and a carnal looking for him 18. That the coming of Christ mentioned 1 Thes 4.15 is but a revelation of Christ to the Saints from glory to glory 19.
That men in whom sin is are not or cannot be while such compleat in Christ 20. That to have sin in men and to be in those sins is all one 21. That the 63. Psalm verse 11. tends to encourage Drunkards and Prophane persons in swearing which is contrary to the Doctrine of Christ These and such like be his intimations as is before more fully shewed The Lord deliver the Reader from such deceits and make the folly of these men yet more evident that poor Souls may not be snared by them I shall adde no more to G. W. but leave him to the Lords convincement and silencing Who when he sets home his reproâ—… to any of them will do it to such purpose as to stop their clamorous cavils which they cease not to invent and raise up against us though against our clearest confutations of them because they be absurd and unreasonable men The Lord exalt his Name and truth to the rebuke and silence of their errors against him Queries sent by Richard Hubberthorne to us with our answer to them And the like number of Queries sent by I. H. to Richard Hubberthorne to be answered plainly by him Richard Hubberthorne sent these ensuing Queries to us thus entituled These few Queries grounded upon the Scriptures concerning the resurrection of the body of Christ I send unto you to Answer in the form of sound words according to your Faith in the same 1 SEeing the Scripture saith no man Ascended up to Heaven but he that came down from Heaven even the Son of man which is in Heaven with what body was the Son of man then in heaven when the man Christ Jesus was upon the Earth in that boy which was crucified at Jerusalem 2. And when Christ was raised from the dead whither might any 〈…〉 before he was Ascended to the Father seeing he said unto Mary touch me not for I am not yet Ascended to my Father but go to my brethren and tell them I Aseend to my Father and your Father to my God and your God Joh. 20.17 3. And whether at the same time did not the same Mary touch him seeing that in Mat. 28.9 it is said she met Jesus saying All hail and held him by the feet and worshiped him 4. Whether the two men that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel as in Luke 24.4 which they both saw as men and heard them speak had two real individual distinct bodies as the bodies of men and seeing that those two men and also Jesus is said all to appear in white Linnen or shining apparrel whether had they all bodies alike of flesh and bones which a Spirit hath not as Luk. 24.39 or they only had such bodies as a Spirit hath without flesh and bones 5. And how did the women distinguish which was Christ whether by his bodily appearance not to be like the other or by the power of his voice seeing they all was both seen and heard and Mary when she first saw him knew him not till he first spake to her John 20.16 and seeing that both the Angels and Christ spake the same words to Mary whereby did she distinguish 6. Again seeing the Scripture saith that the same women at the same time found not the body of Christ but returned and said they had seen a vision of Angels which said that he was alive as Luke 24. Ch. at the 23. whether was it only a vision of Angels seen invisible or it was visible bodies or persons of men or visible voices 7. And seeing the Scripture saith in Mat. 28.7 That they should go in Gallilee and there should see him whether did the eleven Disciples first see him at Gallilee or at Jerusalem seeing that Luke saith Luke 24. that the same day in which he did arise he appeared in the midst of them where the eleven were met together in Jerusalem ver 33. and John 20.19 it is said the same day at evening being the first day of the week when the doors were shut Jesus stood in the midst of them here is the eleven mentioned to be met together and yet it is said that Thomas was not among them John 20.24 And after the eight daies in which he appeared to them again Whether in all this time had he Assended to his Father and their Father to his God and their God 8. And whether is not all these things mystery and cannot be seen nor known nor understood as they are but as the Spirit doth open and reveal them Richard Hubberthorne These for John Horne and Thomas More to answer Note here Reader 1. That the form of sound words is according to our Faith in the Resurrection of Christ So the Title perfixed by him implies and that is rightly implyed though hapily more than he intended therein he spake truth like as Caiaphas did 2. That they are not of our Faith and so not of a sound faith about the Resurection of the body of Christ 3. That he saies these Queries be concerning the Resurrection of the body of Christ And yet the first speaks of what Christ said while he was not yet put to death or risen from it And in all the rest he implies his curiosity and evil designe to render the Scriptures but a cunningly devised fable or Allegory having no real truth in them in what they speak about that Resurrection and to that he believes neither it nor them according to their Testimony concerning it but endevours to render them not to be regarded or believed according to their sayings as being full of contradictions and absurdities that so people might wave them and learn the mystery from the Quakers Such wickednesse is clearly enough to those that have the eyes of their understanding opened touched in those Queries as the eighth more clearly implyeth To these Queres I J. Horne returned this following answer which I also prepared for him and had in readinesse to have sent him upon the receit of his answers to my eight Queries after mentioned which seeing I have not hitherto received from him I have now made publick as followeth 1. To the first I say That the Scripture in John 3.13 Doth not say that Christ was in Heaven in his body then and therefore that Question in what body was the Son of man then in Heaven is not grounded on the Scripture Paul was wrapt up into the third heaven when yet his body was upon earth Men may be in their minds and spirits where their bodies are not as Col. 2.5 much more might Christ who was also God He as God or the eternal Word was then in heaven and in his Spirit ascended up to heaven so as no man else could even when his body was upon the Earth and not in heaven as now it is 2. To the second I say some might touch Christ when he was raised from the dead before he was ascended and taken up in his body into heaven there to be and remain