follow that these do much more Ath. Well if the matter be heard that it be an offence I trust God will forgiue vs. Zelot It is your manner although a sinn be neuer so foule yet to make smal account of it but like a dogge that is wounded ye thinke ye can by this meanes lick your selues whole if ye can but say I hope GOD wil forgiue vs. Ath. If you say true then al our forefathers should be condemned because they did worship images I doubt not but God was as mercifull vnto them as hee is vnto men now I think they pleased GOD better then wée doe nowe let vs not stand so much in our owne light Zelot It is a meruellous thing for to see how the Diuell doth dazle mens eies and howe he doth bewitch them These thinges which you vtter and suche like are euen like a vaile before your eyes so that yee are not able for to haue any sight into Gods woorde Howe grosse and doltishe soeuer the matter bee if yee can say thus our forefathers did it will ye condemne thē then all is safe enough But see howe yee are ouer seene all our forefathers did not fall from God by idolatrie for euen in the pride of the reigne of Antichrist there were some stood vp against him in diuers countreis There were alwaies some whō God lightened to see the abhominatiōs of the man of sin so to repent take hold of Christ God who is alwaies like himselfe receiued them to mercie And doubtles God is more now displeased with such as do now wilfully kicke and spurne against the trueth and seeke for to quench the glorious light of the Gospel then he was with thē from whō the word of God was taken away and being blinde they were made for to beleeue euery lye and therefore nowe when God offereth his grace and seeketh by his worde to expell that grosse darkenes it were good for such as you not to stande in your owne light and obstinatelie to refuse the knowledge of GOD. Our forefathers had that great plague came vpon them which S. Paul did foretell 2. These 2. Namely that there shoulde bee a falling away that Antichrist shoulde deceaue the worlde and bring them to damnation for GOD he saith should sende them strong delusion euen for to beleeue lies because they receaued not the loue of the trueth that they might be saued and now when God offereth his worde agayne men do not ioyfully and thankfully embrace it and therefore God doth sende them shepheards euen after their heartes desire not to feede them for they cannot but to fleese thē for that they can skill off not to bee salt for to season them but to bee euen like doung cast vppon them for to corrupt them not to giue them light seeing themselues are blind The greatest number of you are as farre from God as they were euen in the blindest time of Poperie and that is confessed by your owne mouth when ye say yee woulde follow our forefathers For ye meane not those Forefathers which did know and woorshipp God aright but those which were seduced and fell from him by Idolatrie I am verie loth for to question with yee any further in the commandementes yee are so exceeding blinde in them For I knowe that in our land let all the people be numbred and fiue parts of yee doe vnderstand so much in the commaundements Lords prayer and articles of the fayth that it were a greate shame for a godlie man to haue a childe of x. yeeres olde for to knowe no more Ath. How can yée tell that I thinke yée goe beyond your booke haue yée posed all Zelot I goe not so farre beyonde my booke as you thinke I doe And although I haue not posed all yet I haue posed so many that I knowe what the state of the most is This I finde that in the best and most religious townes generallie the greatest part haue verie little zeale This I find that where there is one of these townes which are forwarde there bee fiue which are not because they want teaching This further I knowe by experience that those which are the willing ones and as it were the daylie hearers for a long time are verie raw when they bee examined Thē iudg you what is in the rest which are verie seldome taught or refuse for to bee taught And if this be not true let mee loose my hand And yet there be idle bellies which are not ashamed with open mouth to crie that lesse preaching woulde serue and that there is knowledge enough among the people when the poore people doe not vnderstande so much as the Lordes prayer vnlesse they would holde them still in poperie they can be no more ignorant Ath. I could like the better if the preaching might be only vpō the sabboth day but nowe they run in the weeke dayes and leaue their busines begger themselues they goe to other townes also which is a pitie that it is suffered it is a great disorder Zelot He is said to be blessed which hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde which doth meditate therin day night I confesse that y e sabboth day is the chiefe time to seeke for knowledge But that man which hath so little loue to the word that he cannot bestow one houre in a weeke for to heare it and yet can bestowe diuers houres in vayne talking drinking and gaming is but a dull scholler vpon the Sabboth day I warrant yee if a man looke well vnto him he shall finde it harde to iudge whether he or the seat he sat on carried away most for leauing their busines so far as they may conueniently woulde yee haue them forget the precept of our sauiour christ first seeke the kingdom of God his righteousnes then al these things shalbe cast vpō you The soule with you is lesse to bee cared for thē y e body ye prefer this life before eternall life as for this that mē come for to be beggers by following sermōs y t they sell their kine that they are faine to be gathered for in the Church ye haue a bowget full of these lies and yee need but euen a mill for to grinde them They are taught by the word preached to follow their labours painfully and the blessing of God is vpon mens labours which doe seeke him and the knowledge of his woorde and although it sometime doth hinder them one houre yet it saueth them and gayneth them many houres which they were wont to bestowe vainely Ath. I doe not like this so euil as y e other when they runne from towne to towne so disorderly Zelot I pray yee tell mee if there were a dearth of corne howe far woulde yee goe to fetch corne rather then statue I beleeue as farre as the sonnes of Iacob when they went out of the land of Chanaan into Egypt At. I coūt him a foole which wil
is and try whether yee can repent nowe it ye cannot what moueth yee to thinke that yee shalt be able then Ath. I hope I doe repent now and shal doe at the ende Zelot Repentance is a returning home vnto God from all euill vices and corrupte desires which are in the flesh and in the heart To be renued by repentaunce cannot be but where a man is renued in knowledge for that is one part of the image of GOD which must be restored in vs Reade in the 4. Chapter to the Ephe. from the 17. verse forwarde If a man continue in darkenesse he doth not repent He which committeth his foule sinns still although it bee but in the desire of his heart hath not repented He which doth not feele sorrowe and griefe and hath not a broken and contrite heart and a sorowfull spirite hath not repented hee which doth not eschue euill and doe good hath not repented All these are taught by the worde for that is it by whiche wee must clense our wayes and therefore yee may boldly say that he which learneth not out of Gods woorde to repent cannot repent for although if it were possible hee coulde repent for all other sinnes yet this one sinne to set light by the instruction of the Gospell will make still worse then they of Sodome as our Sauiour doth tell vs Math. 11. Ath. Will you condemne those whiche call for mercy at their ende whiche neuer repented before Zelot Wee may not pronounce vppon any one man because GOD onely seeth what is in man But yet wee may boldely goe so farre as the worde of God doeth leade vs and by it wee may see what GOD requireth and what God doeth condemne We may see that the common and generall repentaunce which all professe at their ende is not so muche as a shadowe of true repentaunce repentance cannot be in a man especially vppon a sodaine but he must needes feele a wonderfull chaunge in hym selfe he must needes bee able for to say I haue repented I knowe and feele that I am a newe man and therefore because I knowe most certainely that there is repentaunce in mee I knowe most certainely that I shall be saued for GOD promiseth saluation vnto euerye one whiche doeth repent In the common repentance men feele no such thing But are stil as they may be well enough in doubt of saluation Ath. Shall not all such as call vppon God be heard surely I dare not but thinke they shall Zelot I am sure because the Lorde doth speake it That whosoeuer doth call vppon him shall bee saued But yet yee must put this in that then they must pray in fayth as for the prayers of a wicked man which doth not repent and therefore hath not the true faith they are no prayers before GOD although hee crie lowde or call neuer so often for vnto such the Lorde speaketh in the first Chapter of the Prophete Isaiath When yee stretch forth your handes I will turne away mine eyes from yee Also if yee multiplie your prayer I will not heare Likewise the holy Ghost saieth by Solomon in the Prouerbes that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abhomination And in the same booke it is said He that turneth away his eare from hearing the lawe euen his prayer shall bee abhominable and therefore in the latter ende of the fourth Chapter of Ecclesiastes he aduiseth men when they come into the house of GOD to take heed to their feâ—ete and to bee readier to heare then to offer the sacrifice of fooles For saith he they knowe not that they do euill Nowe ye shall finde many mâ—n â—rye in their miseries and make great confession of their vngodly life but yet without true repentaunce as it is manifest for so soone as the prosper againe yee shall see them returne to their olde by as if they had truely repented then shoulde it euer continue with them manie that liue in malice so soone as they be daungerously sicke will be readie to aske forgiuenesse and to forgiue all the worlde They knowe it booteth not to beare malice anie longer but so long as they be able to craulle out of their bedde and to stande vppon their legges yee shall see their olde withered malice as it seemed spring a fresh againe which is a strong proofe that they neuer truely repented howsoeuer they thought they did And euen so is it in all other sinnes they seeme vnto men for to repent they aske GOD forgiuenesse but yet the hearte abideth still the same that it was before God there is no chaunge in them before God they haue not put of the sinnefull bodie of the fleshe there is no chaunge in them before God howesoeuer they seeme to be chaunged before men This counterfet repentance maketh men bolde all their life to despise the holy worde of God which shoulde instruct and guide them it causeth them at their ende not to feare the wrath of God noâ— the vengeance to come because they thinke GOD is satisfied with this repentaunce and also because they knowe not their sinnes they suppose that they are but ouer the shoes when as they are drowned in the goulfe of vncleannesse ouer heade and â—ares Ath. God helpe vs if it bée thus how shall poore men doe then Zelot Men must applie them selues all their life to seeke for the knoweledge of GOD to increase in saith and repentaunce that when they come to their ende they may haue a testimonie of conscience that they haue feared God Likewise when yee come to a sicke man and aske howe hee doeth if he can but say as it pleaseth GOD yee aunswere that is enough neighbour holde yee there If he say I haue offended GOD and I praye GOD haue mercie vppon mee there needeth no more as you thinke Yee shoulde teache them the Lawe that they may see howe they haue offended God yee shoulde shewe them the fearefull curse and horrible â—â—â—â—geaâ—â—â—â— due vnto sinne that so they may 〈…〉 ken with remoâ—â—e and sorrowe yee shoulde shewe them also the glad tidings of the Gospell and what Christe offereth vnto the penitent sinner yee shoulde teache them what holines GOD requireth at their hande howe they may come vnto it what promise they haue made vnto GOD of it in baptisme Yee shoulde instruct them in all the principall pointes of the fayth That so they may haue the renewing faith which shal iustifie and saue them Ath. What difference can you shewe betweene those whiche are taught as you woulde haue them and such as haue knowledge they can no more but repent call for mercie and beleeue And this doe they aswell as the other Zelot You thinke there is no difference but there is this difference that the one part doeth beleeue and repent in deede and the other but in woord as our Sauiour Christ Matth. 15. alleadgeth the saying of God by his Prophete This people drawe neere mee with their mouth and honour me with their lippes but
able to discerne all lieth in this point the doctrine is of God not of men and therefore those doe feele it and iudge rightly whether they be learned or vnlearned whom God doth inwardly teach with his spirite for this cause S. Paule 1 Cor. 14. doth shewe that the worde of God is so to be layde open in the congregation that if there come in a man vnlearned or an infidell hee may be reproued iudged the secrets of his hearte made manifest For if the word be not preached vnto the consciences of men it goeth away like a dead sound But we goe into many matters I haue not forgotten your former wordes but perhaps yee would bee loth to come to that againe Ath. I am not ashamed of any thing which I said and I hope I neede not Zelot No your wares are so fine ye neede not care who viewe them you loue God aboue all and with all your heart Ath. That I doe or els I were a beast I woulde hee were hanged whiche doeth not that Zelot Yee loue your neighbour as your selfe Ath. If I doe not I pray GOD forgiue mée I am sure no man can accuse mée Zelot Then you looke by this meanes to come to heauen Ath. I hope if there be but thrée in all this country goe to heauen I shall bée one of them I meane so well Zelot Ye know the commandements of God and fulfil them also do ye not Ath. I thanke God I knowe them and will fulfill them as nigh as God shall giue me grace Zelot Doe ye breake none of them Ath. Wée breake them all of vs dayly horuely for there is no man which can kéepe them all Zelot You breake some of them and keepe other some Ye keepe the greatest doe ye not and breake the least Ath. I kéepe the greatest and therefore I hope God will beare with mée in the rest Zelot Which doe ye take for to be the greatest that ye are so cleere in Ath. I am no théefe nor murtherer nor traitour I pay euerye man his owne I thinke this is Gods bidding Zelot Are there no greater then these Ath. I take him for an honest man which doth kéepe these and he that doeth not I defie him Zelot Euen so wil I take you to be when I knowe that you doe keepe them But I maruell yee are so bolde for to bid defiance to so many Ath. Doe not you desâ—e them al and all other euil doers Zelot If I should do so you and I shoulde be together by the eares by and by Ath. Then belike yée countâ—â—ee to bee such an one yée ought not to iudge Zelot A man may knowe the tree by the fruites but let this passe I pray ye tell me is not he which hath moe Gods then one as euill as a murtherer Ath. I take him to bée woorse Zelot Then the first commaundement is greater then those which you named Ath. If a man thinke there is any God but one he is very farre wide Zelot You haue none other Gods but one then Ath. It were pitie of my life if I shoulde not bee of that beliefe If all the commaundementes were as easie to bee kept as this we should doe well Zelot Then yee neuer brake the first Commaundement Ath. Neuer in all my lyfe neither shal euer any make me to bée but of Gods beliefe for they which beléeue there bee many Gods are not of a right minde Zelot Can you then keepe the greater and noâ— the lesse I doe noâ— doubte but if a man can keepe the first hee can keepe all for the first is as hard as any of the rest although such skilfull Clearkes as you count it to bee very easie Ath. Then it were an easie matter to kéepe them Zelot What if I proue vnto yee that you breake it will you confesse your follie Ath. I will neuer bée made beléeue that which I know is contrary Zelot â—eâ— me aske ye this question whether that man doth keepe this Commandement which thinketh there is but one God and yet giueth that honour and worship vnto other thinges which he should giue vnto him alone Ath. I did neuer put any trust in images nor I neuer thought they coulde doe mée any good Zelot I do not speake of that outward giuing away of Gods worship but of an other which is inward in the minde Ath. I haue alwayes had God in my minde and I trust I haue neuer woorshipped any besides him Zelot Is not that a mans God which hee loueth best which hee doeth most delight in Ath. Looke what a man loueth best and taketh most delight in I thinke hee maketh y â— his god because we ought to loue god best Zelot Doe yee not thinke that the thing which a man most setteth his minde vpon most seeketh after is that which he most loueth Ath. I suppose euery man looketh after that which he most loueth Zelot Then he which seeketh the world more then God loueth the world more then God and therefore in very deede maketh the world his God Ath. God forbid that any man shoulde make more account of this worlde then of God I hope fewe doe so Zelot You hope fewe doe so but a man may easilie proue that youe doe so and I am sure the most doe so Ath. I trust yée shall hardly prooue it by mée although yée iudge so euill of mée Zelot Can a man seeke after God or set his delight vpon God anie other waie then by seeking after the knowledge and obedience of Gods will which he hath reuealed in his word or can a man loue God and not loue his worde Ath. Gods word is good wee must loue that al of vs be ruled by it for it doth tell vs nothing but that which is good Zelot How slilie you wind out of the matter I aske one thing which yee doe not aunsweare and that is whether a man can seeke God and not seeke him in his worde Ath. Euery man cannot bee a Diuine wée that bee vnlearned men are not for to meddle with so high matters Zelot Now ye speake in your kinde we be unlearned men we haue nought to doe with God we may not meddle with him Ath. You take all thinges wrong yée doe not heare the say so Zelot Doe I take yee wrong doe ye not say so tell me is not God as high a matter as his word Ath. God is aboue all Zelot Can we haue to doe with God to serue him any way but by his worde Ath. The worde of GOD doeth tell by what wée are to doe Zelot Then it followeth when yee saye wee may not meddle with so high matters that yee were euen as good for to say wee haue nought to doe with GOD. Wee owe him no duetie of obedience we need not care to know his will because he is as high a matter as his word Ath. You put in a greate deale more then I sayde and take mee
a notable sentence in the beginning of the seconde chap. of the prouerbs where a man may playnlie prooue that none can come to the feare of god but such as doe earnestlie endeuour for to knowe God The wordes be these My sonne if thou receiue my wordes hide my commaundements with thee to incline thine eares to wisdome and to bow thy heart to vnderstanding if thou call for vnderstanding and vtter thy voyce for knowledge if thou seeke her as siluer and digge for her as for hidde treasures Then shalt thou vnderstande the feare of the Lorde and finde the knoweledge of God If a man doe not receiue the woorde and commandementes of God vttered by his Ministers if he doe not keepe and lay them vp if he doe not cry and call vpon God for vnderstanding if hee doe not incline his eares bende his heart thereto if he doe not searche and digge after her as men doe for treasures he shall not come to the knowledge of the feare of God Ath. All men cannot come to these things which you speake of Zelot All men which will please GOD must come thus farre that can saye with the Prophete Dauid in the 119. Psalme I haue hidden thy worde in my heart that I might not sinne against thee Also in the same place when hee hath asked the question Wherewithall a younge man shall cleanse his wayes hee aunswereth by taking heede there to according to thy worde where by it is most euident that all those are vnpure in their waies and sinne greeuously against God which haue not layde vp his woorde in their heartes nor cleansed their wayes by the same But let vs come to some other of your sayings which I am greeued for to heare Ath. Yee neede not to be greeued for I doe not hurt ye Zelot I can not but bee greeued to see your grosse and palpable blindnesse and I am the more greeued when I remember that many which are otherwise verie wise men vse muche your doltishe sayinges and thinke they speake very wisely They say what should vnlearned men meddle further then to say their ten commaundements the Lords praier and the articles of the faith And you are of the same minde Ath. I trust to doe as well with these as other with all their learning Zelot Doe yee thinke that yee shall doe well euen because ye can say them although yee do not vnderstande them Ath. Nay if a man say them and doe not vnderstand them hee is little the better I knowe not why I shoulde not vnderstande them so long as God hath giuen mee my fiue wittes I am no childe nor I am no foole Zelot In deede hee that hath one good wit is no foole muche lesse are you whiche haue fiue you must needes knowe all and more For I thinke ye meane that ye are able by reason to vnderstand those things Ath. I trust I vnderstand by that reason which God hath giuen me so much as is sufficient I can tell when I doe well and I can tell when I doe euill Zelot I perceiue you are a fre will man one of those which thinke by naturall vnderstanding too conceiue the mysteries of GOD And yee doe in deede vnderstand so much as is sufficient not for to saue ye but as S. Paule sayth Rom. 1. to make ye without excuse so to condemne ye You know some sinnes and likewise ye can tell some thinges which are good but ye can neuer tell any thing which ye haue done that is good Ath. I trust GOD will bée more fauourable then you are and that hée will not forgette the good déedes which I haue done Zelot A very little box I warrant you will holde all your deedes if ye haue no moe olde deedes then you haue good deedes Ath. Are not these good deedes when a man doth giue to the poore and is readie to doe his neighbour a good turne when a man doth liue honestly serue God and thinke no man any harme Zelot Now ye speake of cost now ye are hit into your right vaine againe euen where ye would be to boast of those thinges which ye haue not for none of all those or such like are good in you because they doe not proceed of faith for S. Paul saith Rom. 14. ver 23. Whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Ath. How can yee prooue that mine are not of fayth Zelot Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word Rom. 10. 17. where a man despiseth the worde there can be no faith because faith is grounded vpon the worde and doth not beleeue thinges conttarye vnto the woorde Moreouer they be not your fiue wittes as you terme them which can make ye able for to vnderstande the mysteries of Gods worde For they cannot be vnderstood as Saint Paule teacheth 1. Corinth 2. 11. Vnlesse God reueale them by his spirite for euen the wicked which seeme to knowe them doe not know them aright But let vs come for to see how well ye doe vnderstand the ten commaundements Do ye not looke to come to heauen by doing of them Ath. I doe them as nigh as God will giue me grace I trust God will not require more at my hands then I am able for to doe I am as he made me if he had made mee able for to do better I shoulde do more Zelot Now ye are in a deepe peece of diuinity ye thinke this is so equall which yee vtter now that all the Doctors in the world are not able for to controllye Ye say ye do what ye can more God cannot require at your handes you meane as if one shoulde make this comparison a father canne require no more of his child then his strength wil serue a Prince can commaund his subiect no impossible thing if a father shoulde whippe his childe for not doing that which he is not able it were crueltie if a Prince should put a subiect to death for not doyng his commaundement in a matter vponssible it were tyranny the father will say My child did his good will I can aske no more The Prince will say he hath done that which a man might and further I cannot require Likewise you thinke GOD shoulde deale straightly with ye if he shoulde condemne ye for breaking the Lawe which ye are not able to obserue that he cannot looke for more at your handes then he hath made yee able to perfourme Ath. I meane so in déede flesh is frâ—ile wée cannot doe all things Zelot I pray ye tell me doe yee thinke any shall goe to hell and be damned Ath. The Scripture saith there shall doth it not Zelot Wherefore doe ye thinke they shalbe damned Ath. For breaking Gods commaundements Zelot Are they able for too keepe them Ath. No man is able for to keepe them Zelot Shall they then be damned for euer in hell fire for breaking those laws which they were not able to keepe Ath. Not if they had done their good will
but where as they are made for to speake When as in deed the Preacher in his Sermon must come with such euidence and make his proofe so plaine and so strong that it must needes conuince the conscience of the hearers in such wise that of necessitie he shalbe forced for to say vndoubtedly that which this man vttereth is that which God himself speaketh for so saith the Apost 1. Cor. 14. 24 If saith he all doe prophesie and there come in an infidel or one vnlearned he is reproued of all he is iudged of all and so the secrets of his hearte are made manifest and falling vpon his face he will worship God confessing that God is verily among you This testimonie doth shew that the force of Gods worde vttered nakedly is such that it conuicteth the hart of the infidel and coÌ„pelleth him for to confesse that God is with theÌ„ which speak it The worde of God is described in the Epistle to the Hebrwes Chap. 4. 12. after this sort the worde of God saith he is liuely mightie in operation sharper then any two edged sworde and entereth in vnto the deuiding asunder of the soule and the spirite of the ioynts and the marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hart Men might vnderstand by this that by whom soeuer this sword of the spirite be drawne forth if it be rightly handled it will pearse through and through both the bodies and soules of the hearers and will moue euery veine in the heart euen of the wicked So that he needeth not for to grind it or make it sharpe vpon the grindstone of Ambrose or Hierom. Ath. Then you destroy learning if yee take awaye the writinges of the Doctors for they serue to no vse if it be as you say why should students read them Zelot There is great benefite in the reading of them for to helpe vs to the true vnderstanding of the scriptures Ath. If they helpe yée to vnderstand the scriptures wherefore do yée not when yee expound the scriptures tell which is theirs Yée robbe them and take the glorie to your selues Zelot Nowe yee reason as bussardlike as can be ye may be a Doctour of Dunces for this argument Doth the Preacher come in his owne name must he tell his owne will or is he to seeke his owne glorie or the glory of any other man If other haue holpen him to finde the knowledge of Gods will which he must vtter it is therefore become theirs because they haue shewed it vnto him If he now set it foorth in the name of the Lord alone whose it is doth he robbe them For looke whatsoeuer a man findeth in the auncient writers in expounding he is no further to beleeue them then they proue their exposition out of the Bible so that it continueth still not theirs but the Lordes and if wee shoulde ascribe it vnto them we should robbe the Lorde and bee theeues for other men Therefore in this matter wee must follow the precept which the Lorde giueth 1 Peter 4. 11. He that speaketh let him speake as the wordes of God Ath. Is that so meant that it is not alowâ—â—to cite any thing out of other bookes besides the worde Zelot I tolde yee before that it is not simply vnlawfull for to cite or alleadge a sentence out of a Doctour But the maner and ende of the dooyng of it is all I say likewise that a man may in some sorte alleadge a saying out of any Heathen or prophane Writer for wee haue the example of Saint Paule Actes 17. 1. Corinth 15. Titus 1. Alleadging the sayinges of prophane Poets But wee must see to what end doth hee reason thus the Poet saith it therefore are yee to giue credite vnto it no man woulde bee so foolishe as to make their wordes being Heathen men to bee of such authoritie but he sheweth that euen their owne Doctors consented with him in those things And therefore a shame and foule reproche for them too bee ignorant of the same When the Papistes doe charge vs to be gone from the faith of the olde Fathers although we are to confute them this way namely by shewing their treacherie and lying when we are able to prooue by the writinges of the auncient Fathers that in the chiefe pointes they fully agree with vs yet this is not the way which God hath appointed and sanctified for the conuersion and education of his people this engine is ouer weake to reare vp the Temple of the Lorde we must take heede we leaue not the mightie worde it selfe and leane vnto a tottering piller Saint Paule sheweth the power of the worde 2. Corinth 10. where hee saith although we walke in the fleshe yet wee warre not after the fleshe for the weapons of our warrefare are not carnall but mightie in God for to throwe downe holdes which he expoundeth in the verse which followeth to be the imaginations and euery high thing which is exalted against the knowledge of God and euery thought which hee saith they leade captiue vnto the obedience of Christ There is no power nor anye authoritie can doe these thinges but that which is in the word of God it selfe Which is to be made so euident by the Preacher that it may bring this thing to passe The miserable experience in our time of suche as flie from the strong power of the woorde and fight with the weapons of menne maye reache vs because it doeth manifestly appeare vnto all whiche haue eyes too see that they are not strong enough to throwe downe holdes and to leade captiue vnto the obedience of Christ the rebellious thoughtes and imaginations of mens mindes they cannot shew a man by them conuerted sincerely throughly from errours and euill maners by alleadging the authorities of men It was not the practise of the auncient and godly fathers in their Sermons for to leaue the testimonies of the mightie word which is able to rent the stony rocke in peeces and to cleaue to the authorities of weake men which were gone before them But what should a man say The worde is thought to bee of no power vnlesse it bee strengthened otherwise But let vs leaue this and come backe againe to some of your other matters I remember ye did lay this as a great accusation against the preachers that they medled with predestination Ath. I did so and not without cause for they do great hurt thereby vnto many when they teach such thinges Zelot What hurte can yee shewe which commeth by preaching of predestination Ath. If a man bee chosen for to bee saued let him doe as euil as hee can hee shall not bee damned and if a man be appointed before hee was borne to bee damned let him doe neuer so much good hee can not bee saued and therefore when yee teach this doctrine ye were euen as good tel the people that they may liue as they lust Let them neuer heare teaching to what purpose shoulde
it serue Zelot Howe proude and presumptuously bolde ignoraunce doth make a man It might seeme to bee a rare thing that a mortall man which is but claye and dust yea a rotten Carion shoulde aduaunce himselfe against God euen the Lorde of infinite wisedome and glorie but that wee see it dayly for to be common Ath. Doe not accuse me for to be proud I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleased God Zelot If ye were as sicke as ye be proude a verie litle meate woulde giue yee your supper But I knowe you doe not see your pride Ath. I maruell why ye shoulde counte â—â— proude ye see how plaine I goe Zelot You thinke that pride is in the coate when it is in the heart a man may haue a kinges hearte in his breast and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe There is cause why yee doe not goe gay yee are not able for take the ragged dest begger in the worlde and giue her the same wing whiche the great Ladies haue and yee shall see her flie the same flight There is pride against GOD and against men and you are in the deepest of them euen agaynste God Ath. Prooue that because yée condemne me so sore Zelot Yee take your selfe for to bee wise and the Lorde vndiscrete and vnwise For yee charge him with follie when as yee say this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all and yet hee hath expressed it in sundrie places of his woorde If it bee so exceeding hurtfull then surely Christ was to be blamed Saint Paule and saint Peter with the rest of the Apostles were verie vndiscrete because they haue sette it foorth It seemeth that it had been good for them to haue taken aduise of the deepe heades of the worlde whiche might haue foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe and haue saide Maisters take heede howe yee deale with suche doctrine it will turne yee vnto discretite O foolishe wise fleshe this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache thou canst neuer come within the smell of it Ath. Smell or smel not let me heare yée aunsweare the matter Zelot You suppose that your reasons are vnaunswerable and that causeth yee to bee so freshe and readie but alas man your halfepenie is no good siluer yee are in a wrong boxe I will shewe you howe childishly ye erre Forsooth say you if God hath chosen a man to saluation before hee was borne then let him doe as euill as he can hee shall not bee damned and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to seeke after the libertie of the fleshe this doth open a doore vnto him and a wide passage vnto all euill because he needeth not to care what he doth it is appointed before hande what shall become of him This mightie and inuincible reason of yours hath neuer an eye to see with all and although it seeme for to haue good legges yet is it but an olde Criple be not led by it for yee shall both fall into the ditch Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule sayth Ephesians Chapter I. 4. these are his wordes as he hath chosen vs in him before the foundations of the worlde were layde that wee shoulde bee holy and without blame before him through loue Howe stand these two thinges together when you say if men be chosen they may liue as they lust and God sayth by his Apostle that hee hath chosen them for to bee holy and blamelesse in their conuersation And this is vndoubtedly true that those whom God hath predestinate to bee heires of glory hee hath sealed them with the holy Spirite as yee maye reade in the same Chapter They are freed from the bondage of sinne by the spirite they walke in the spirite they are led by the spirite they shewe forth by the fruites of the spirite that the flesh with the lustes and concupiscences thereof is crucified in them and that they are regenerate and 〈…〉 againe of the spirite and so become newe creatures in Christ sinne is abhominable vnto them they hate loth it no lesse then deadlie poison they pant and breath to be wholy set free from the remnantes of it Righteousnesse is deare and precious vnto them their ioye and heartes delight is in it They sigh and grone because they can not reache vnto the perfection of it The word of God doth plainely teach that the electe are thus as I haue shewed and yet men say that election taketh away all care of Godlye life Ath. I like not this that men will saye they know God hath chosen them howe can they tell Can any man tell what God will doe with him Did God euer tell them that they are elected Zelot Howe shoulde you like of this when as yee like of no goodnesse Howe shoulde you which are but a naturall man iudge of thinges spirituall You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him because you are blinde and see not the way ye suppose all other are so you are an Infidell or els ye might plainly heare GOD speake in his woord and tell which shall be saued and which are in the way to damnation Doe ye suppose that it is vncertayne when the scripture telleth a man howe he shall knowe that he is chosen if the woorde of God tell him he is chosen hath not God himselfe then tolde him Read the first Chapter of the seconde Epistle of Peter and there yee shall see how a man shall knowe certainely that he is elected and that hee shall neuer fall For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his spirite and reneweth him by repentaunce he is sure because God sayth so that he is chosen to eternall life if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him then doeth hee doubt and stagger but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande On the other side when a man liueth in sinne and obeyeth vnrighteousnesse God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damnation And therefore all those which do not finde in them selues the spirituall birth at the least begunne whereby they may assure them selues that they be chosen May certainly say that as yet their state is damnable Ath. Howe can yee saye their state is damnable so long as they beléeue Can men do more then beléeue Zelot They doe not beleeue for if they beleeue then are they sure that GOD loueth them what is it else which they beleeue if they knowe they bee in fauour with God it is because he chose them in Christ If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers therefore they shall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD as ye may learne in the Epistle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verse 6 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt stagger oftentimes yet they are not like the vnfaithful which coÌ„tinue in the same but they get the vpper hande they striue by prayer by
me nor that I may not agree with them and although I be not able to become perfect yet with al the might I can I straine and breath to come as nigh perfection as I can my desire is good to reach it and although I find that I come many degrees short yet I approche nearer and nearer This is true repentance this is that which S. Paule setteth forth in himselfe Rom. 7. Philip. 3. With this I know God is pleased without this there caÌ„not be any seruice done to God Ath. I like not when men will spye a mote in another mans eye Zelot Our Sauiour Christe doeth not forbid to espie a mote in an other mans eye for we are commaunded to admonish one an other what soeuer it bee wherein we doe amisse but such as you which can not abyde to be admonished doe euer alleadge that saying of Christe as though hee had spoken it vnto this ende that one should not admonish an other It is a â—oule hypocrisie for a man to be curious in reproouing small faultes in other and make no conscience of great and foule vices in him selfe Euerie man ought to looke vnto himselfe and euery man is bound by the woorde of God and charitie to looke vnto others and to conuert them from their sinnes if they can To conuert a sinner from going astray and to saue a soule from death As S. Iames speaketh Chap. 5. vers 20. And so to couer a multitude of sinnes is a blessed thing and ought to moue men with diligence to vse charitable admonition Ath. If they woulde doe it in charitie I could like of it but men haue no loue they doe it because they are precise and captious Zelot Let a man see yee commit any foule crime and reproue yee your aunswere is by and by yee may not iudge when as the matter is plaine and doth iudge it selfe Now when a man doth admonishe you according as God commaundeth yee are bolde with the same mouth which saide ye ought not to iudge for to iudge him affirming that he doth it of a captious and quarrelling minde the thing being so exceeding good of it selfe who made you able for to see into the heart of a man and to find that he doth it not well You are those of whom the Prophet speaketh Woe be vnto those which call good euill and euill good If he be a man spotted with vices himselfe doth reprooue another not caring for to amende ye may boldly say he doth it of an euill minde for can he be charitable vnto other men to seeke their conuersion and not to bee charitable vnto himselfe to seeke his owne saluation Or can he hate vngodlinesse in other and not hate it in himselfe Ath. Well the best of vs all may bee amended wée haue all infirmittes what would yée haue more then this at the last for to call for mercy If a man be sorie and aske God forgiuenes is hée not euen as well as they which are the most precise the mercie of GOD must saue all and what would yée haue a man care for more then to bée saued I praye God I may haue time to repent in the ende Zelot Here is good stuffe here is sound diuinitie I may well terme this reason euen the porter of hell for it openeth euen the widest gate that a thousande may goe in on a ranke This is true that the best of vs all may be amended and that we haue all infirmities but yee doe wickedly applye it for when yee should reason thus the best may be ameded the most holy are spotted and therefore as Saint Paule doth teach they must indeuour for to proceede forwarde for the woorde of God willeth men to striue and contend euen against all vncleanesse and neuer to cease but to come as nigh perfection as is possible But you reason quite contrary that because the best are sinners therefore men are to make small account to amende Ye should think thus the most godly haue neede to sorrowe and mourne and proceede in repentaunce therefore howe much neede haue suche as are grosse sinners For our Sauiour Christ doth shew Iohn 8. That whosoeuer committeth sinne is the seruaunt of sinne Nowe so long as a man is the seruaunt of sinne so long is hee not the seruant of God for no man can serue two so contrary masters Saint Iohn sayeth he that committeth sinne is of the Diuell Where learned yee this that a man may continue in his vices all his life and at the last call for mercy God commaundeth men to repent speedely and not to put of from day to day Hee threatneth exceeding sharpely in the first Chapter of the Prouerbs that when hee hath called and cryed vnto men for to returne from their euill waies and they haue refused that at the last they shall call and not be hearde hee will laugh when their destruction commeth vppon them they shall seeke him but not finde him Doe you thinke that when God hath called and wee refuse that we shall not call and he refuse Ath. The scripture sayth that what time soeuer a sinner doth repente him of his sinne God will forgiue him Zelot If the scripture speake any thing to the comfort of the sorowfull heart the Deuill doth teache the impenitent for to abuse it to their hardening It is most true that at what time soeuer a sinner doth repent his sinnes are all forgiuen but is it in a mans choise for to repent when hee will can hee take a newe heart when it doth please him can he haue the newe birth and a ryght spirite when he will It is God which doth create a man a new or maketh him a new creature in Christ when it pleaseth him A man needeth not for to care for any thing but to be saued but that is not so easie a matter as men thinke Striue for to enter in at the straight gate sayth Christ for manye shall striue and shall not enter The waie is narowe and the gate is straight whiche leadeth vnto life and fewe there bee which find it and if this be true whiche you say that a man may liue in sinne all his life and at the last be saued euen for vtteling a fewe wordes Then the way is broad and easie who cannot finde it who almost doeth not walke in it But alas it is a broken staffe whiche men doe leane vnto God is verie mercifull but not to those which despise his Gospell for vengeance belongeth vnto such it is vnpossible sayth the holy Ghost Hebr. 2. that suche shoulde escape And although ye haue neuer so long time to repent if God doe not worke it in yee you shall die in that blindnesse and hardnesse of heart in whiche yee haue liued wee must seeke in our life time to bee begotten by the worde for the scripture saith God doth beget his children by that Ath. Shall not man hope for to repent at the last Zelot Marke what repentance
their heart is farre from mee Ath. That is meant when a man doth speake with his mouth and meaneth not with his heart but these haue a good meaning in their minde Zelot It is meant when a man approcheth with his mouth and hath still a wicked heart and an euill conscience for those do remooue a man so farre from God that no blind intent can make him neere vnto him God looketh for great things in the heartes of those which call vpon him Ath. I thinke God accepteth the prayer of the honest poore man as well as of any other and will heare him as soone as hee will heare the prayer of those which knowe most and are the best learned Zelot God is no accepter of persons hee heareth the poore as well as the riche the vnlearned as well as the learned so that their prayers bee made aright But if yee speake of those honest men which are so called yet are voide of all knowledge of Gods woorde and of religion it is an easie matter for to prooue that their prayers are not good Ath. Can yee haue anye better prayer then the Lordes prayer when they praye that can ye require more Zelot There can be no better prayer then the Lordes prayer and he which prayeth that right must needes bee saued But let mee aske you this question what if a man pray the Lordes prayer with his mouth and regardeth it not in his heart shal his praier be good Ath. His prayer cannot be good he doth but mocke God Zelot Then tell me this a man prayeth thus hallowed be thy name in worde he seemeth to desire that the name of God may be sanctified and honoured he goeth his way and blasphemeth the name of GOD or heareth it blasphemed and neuer careth rayleth vpon his worde dishonoureth him doe yee not thinke that hee made a sweete preyer In the like maner he saith thy will bee done in earth as it is in heauen he goeth away and is so farre from desiring to do the will of God that hee neuer careth for to knowe it Whereby it is euident that he little ment with his heart that which he said with his tongue Moreouer hee would seeme in woordes to craue of God that hee and others might doe the will of God in earth as the Angels doe in heauen and yet tell him when hee breaketh the will of God and his aunswere is I am not so precise I am not so curious I will not bee so holy you are full of the spirite and then hee will euen reproche that which he seemed for to pray for And these are the prayers of those poore honest men which you thinke God heareth as well as the prayers of any other I might goe thorough all the petitions and finde the like It is exceeding great pitie that men want instruction for a great multitude doe trust to their pratling prayers when as they doe not either vnderstand what they lay or els meane the contrary Ath. If a man labour all the wéeke truely and honestly and vppon the Sabboth day come to the Churche and make his prayers shall wée say God regarded not his prayer because hée doeth not vnderstande what he prayeth his intent is good hee doth his good will hee hath a wife and children to prouide for hee must followe the worlde and let preaching goe or else hee shall begge and so longe as hee doth hurte no man but dealeth vprightly I thinke God doeth require no more at his handes Such as haue naught else for to doe let them séeke for knowledge Zelot Yee are like vnto a hedge which is full of bryers and pricking thornes a man cannot lay holde on yee vnlesse yee bring his hedging gloues and his bill Yee haue many thinges to shroude your selfe vnder and to keepe the truth from touching of ye as the Lorde in his worde hath set foorth the whole armour for a Christian souldier so likewise Satan doth by suggestion teache men to arme themselues against the Lorde But ye must be stript of your armour at the least ye must be shewed that it is no armour of proofe Ye say that if a man labour trulye honestly all the weeke those labour so which do it not alone for necessitie but because God requireth that men should painfully trauell and which haue the woord of God as a lanterne for to guide their steppes for what soeuer a man doth if it bee not in obedience of God in his worde it is sinne To pray vpon the Sabboth for fashion sake is very detestable because we are in continuall danger and in continuall neede and want helpe continually from the Lorde vppon whome our saluation doeth dayly depende we are commaunded to pray continually or to haue our heartes watching thereunto To pray without vnderstanding is not praying but mumming You speake as though it were a thing which God doth allowe that men should seeke more after the world them after God so make the world their God And because they haue wife and children to prouide for therfore they cannot seeke to know God As though we were not commanded to seeke first the kingdome of God that is to seeke that chiefly and more then the worlde and then GOD hath promised that all these things shall be cast vpon vs. Howe shall any man be excused when God maketh this promise vnto all as he doth perfourme it vnto as many as doe trust him I haue been young saith the Prophet and nowe am old yet did I neuer see the righteous forsakē and his feede begging their bread When ye say hee must follow the worlde and let preaching goe ye were euen as good say hee must follow the Deuill and let God go And if an ignorant man coulde come so farre as to deale vp rightly and to hurt no man neither in woorde nor neede which notwithstanding they come nothing neere yet this woulde not serue the turne for there is a God who will be knowne and woorshipped in that religion which he teacheth Haue ye so fleshly eyes that ye can looke no higher Doe ye thinke God requireth no more but an honest and ciuill conuersation towardes men God requireth euen of the poore labouring man that he should if he will be blessed meditate in his Law or his doctrine day and night Psalme 1. Likewise when he saith that the man is blessed which feareth the Lord to the ende we might know which that man is he addeth immediatly he hath great delight in his commaundements But the most part of your honest men nowe a dayes delight so much in the word of God and meditate so much in it that they care not a button though they neuer heare it they loue it and set as much by it as they doe by an old shoe And are not so forwarde as you doe allowe to seeke for the knowledge of God when they haue naught els for to doe for you thinke yee graunt a liberall allowance to God
of your mind in this thing are there Ath. Yes the greatest parte for I knowe almost none but they will affirnie this matter Zelot If the greatest part to bee of your mind wherefore is there not then a greate deale of loue and freendshippe where you say there is none why doe yee not beeing the most in number repayre the ruines of that olde faythfull friendshippe which yee say is decayed yee saye that there was loue and friendshippe and yee seeme to lament the want of them and yet there is none in your selues for yee be very full of malice and strife is there any buzzarde so blinde but that hee may espie your grosse follie and vanitie in this point whē with open mouth ye cry for loue loue and bee the greatest enemies thereunto your selues Moreouer yee followe your owne fonde and doating opinion that yee imagine a thing whiche neuer was for the Worlde hath euer beene like it selfe full of debate and strife a verie fewe in all ages whiche haue had true loue Againe you call none loue but that carnall loue whiche is in eating and drinking and other foolishe delightes That whiche is the true loue you condemne to bee hatred For if a man admonishe and reprooue you for anie naughtie vice which is the greatest loue by and by yee stampe and stare like madde men and saye nowe there is no loue except a man doe flatteryee and bee partaker of your foule and beastlie sinnes yee are at deadlie hatred with him But lett vs returne againe too Syr Robert yee sayde hee was as good a liuer as the best of them all Ath. I saye so still for he is content with his liuing many of your spirituall men are neuer satisfied for with that poore liuing he hath he doth kéepe a good house and doeth féede the poore Zelot You proue him to bee a good Liuer by comparing him with those whiche are woorse It is all one as if a manne woulde proofe a theefe whiche hath stollen twentie pounde too bee a good theefe because hee is not so euill as hee whiche hath stollen a thousande poundes Ath. Yée doe not well to compare true men with theeues Zelot Is not he a theefe which doth take the hire and doth not that which hee shoulde doe for it Ath. He is as good as a théefe I thinke so Zelot Doe not they robbe them whiche take the liuing and doe not feede the flocke Let mee aske yee a question if a man robbe and steale and then keepe a house and feast his neighboures with it and bee a Murtherer will his good house keeping make him a good Liuer Ath. No that it will not Zelot Let mee aske yee another question which is the worse murtherer hee whiche doth murther the body or hee whiche doeth murther the soule Ath. Hee whiche doeth murther the soule Zelot Then hee whiche shoulde feede mens bodies committed vnto hym and doeth pine them to death is a murtherer and hee which should feede mens soules and doth sterue them is a greater murtherer and so his good house keeping cannot make him a good man robbing so many and killing so many Ath. I will not beléeue that hee doth kill any Zelot That is because yee will not beleeue the saying of Christe if the blynde leade the blynde they both fal into the ditch nor that God will saue men by the woorde preached Ath. I hope wée bée not blinde I trust we beleeue all well Zelot You are blinde and should haue a guide to leade ye the way to heauen and to instruct yee in true godlinesse Ath. I will not learne the way to heauen of anie man for I hope I haue as good a faith and as good a soule to Godwarde as the best learned of them all Zelot Whereby doe you try your goodnesse and your faith any other way then by your owne blinde fantasie Ath. I meane well I hurte no man nor I thinke no man anye hurte I loue God aboue all and put my whole trust in him what woulde yee haue more they preache and teache they can tell vs no more but this when they haue all said what they can Zelot Nowe yee tumuble it vppe together in deede I see well it is no small trouble to bring an ignoraunt man for to see his folly Ath. I haue vttered my conscience if I saye not well I am readye for too learne Zelot What neede you learne when you knowe all afore hand euen as much as all the preachers can tell yee Ath. Yée take me at the woorst the wisest of vs all may learne Zelot You saide that yee loue GOD aboue all and you thinke no man no hurt I take it your meaning is that yee doe loue GOD with all your hearte and your neighbour as your selfe and more then this cannot be taught Ath. Wée should doe this if wée doe it not God forgiue vs. Zelot This is all is it not what needeth any more teaching Ath. Let men doe this firste and afterwarde if they will learne more let them Zelot Yee giue very graue aduise nowe if there were any to follow it Ath. I haue no learning but I thinke if men would doe this it woulde not bee so euil as it is Zelot If euery thing whiche is spoken truely be spoken wisely then you haue vttered a verye wise saying for I am sure there cannot be a truer I beleeue indeede yee haue no learning and I am sure as you saye if men should doe that there would not be so much euill among vs. Ath. Yée thinke peraduenture that I speake like a foole I woulde I were as wise as those which I heare say so Zelot Haue yee manye of these greate Wise men which woulde haue men first fulfill the ten Commaundements and then run to heare sermons Ath. All thinges are well spoken which are well taken if they bee not wise I praye God make them wise I haue nought to doe with them Zelot Yee are a playne man and haue skyll in outwarde thinges will yee giue mee leaue to aske you a question in a matter wherein yee haue vnderstanding Ath. I thanke God I dare answeare to a question Zelot Are ye a carpenter or a mason Ath. I haue no skill that way Zelot Then if there be a great house of tymber and stone to buylde you can not build it Ath. If there were no better builders then I there woulde not bee so manye gaye houses Zelot If one shoulde say here is a verie fayre house too bee buylded it is no more but to laye a good foundation too raise vp the walles and to finish the roofe you knowe this all therefore ye canne buyld it for ye know all Ath. I know this is all but I can do neuer a whit of it vnles a carpenter or a buylder doe teach me Zelot Ye say well euen so to loue GOD with all our hearte with all our mynde and our neighbour as our selfe is all but wee knowe not howe to doe
one iotte of it vnlesse we be taught it out of gods worde Ath. God graunt wee may for there bee ouer many which doe not regard it Zelot Let mee nowe aske you further put case one shoulde saye vnto you thus you know all that is to bee done in buylding an house the foundation the walles and the roofe doe these first if yee will learne any more yee may goe to some Carpenter Ath. There is no man so foolishe to giue a man that counsell Zelot It is the Counsell you gaue and the wise men which yee spake of which woulde haue men first to do and afterwarde to learne Ath. Naye to doe that they knowe and afterwarde to learne more for there was neuer more knowledge and lesse dooing Zelot It is a verie pitifull case to see howe the worlde is blinded yee bring not this out of your owne bouget for there bee very manie wise and iollye heades whiche stande muche vppon this which you speake they neuer vnderstoode that whiche Solomon saith Prouerb 1. cap. 22. ver Yee fooles be enemies vnto knowledge or hate knowledge Neither doe they knowe that whiche Saint Paule speaketh 1 Cor. 8 2. If any man thinke he knoweth any thing hee knoweth nothing as yet as hee ought to knowe They neuer considered what the holy Ghoste saith in the latter ende of the fifte Chapter to the Hebrwes ver 12. Where he doth sharply reprooue them because they were children in vnderstanding Neither doe they know that all well doing proceedeth from faith faith doth increase through knowledge it greeueth me to stand vpon the matter the saying is so buzzardly Ath. You would haue all men diuines I thinke it is not for plowmeÌ„ to meddle with the Scriptures Zelot You thinke so but I pray you to whom speaketh the Lorde by the Properer Esay when hee saith My people perishe for want of knowledge Vnto whom speaketh the Lorde by the Prophete Hoseas Chap. â—â— 1. 2. When hee saith there is no truth there is no mercy nor knowledge of God in the land But swearing lying killing theeâ—â—ing coÌ„mitting adulterie c. Vnto whome wrote Saint Paule saying Brethren bee children in malice be not children in vnderstanding vnto whom wrote Saint Peter exhorting so much vnto knowledge Ath. I thinke knowledge doeth make men the woorse for there bée no woorse men then many that be great scripture men none wil deceiue a man sooner then they they wil speake a man faire before his face and bee readie behinde his backe for to cutte his throate Zelot It seemeth that you are no small man there is a great deale of good stuffe in you if you would vtter it Ath. I tell yée my mind plainely I will not flatter any man Zelot Ye need not tell me that I know what maner of man ye be Let vs come to your last words ye did speake very lewdly do yee thinke that knowledge doeth make men woorse Ath. I heare many say so if I speake â—ewâ— lye there bee a number moe beside me that doe so Zelot If knowledge make men the woorse then is it a thing that is not good of it selfe for that whiche is good can not make a man euill is there any beast which will say That to knowe GOD or the wil of God which is most holy and pure can make â— man the woorse No these men are more then beastes Againe the more a man knoweth of God the woorse he should be a very filthie blasphemie Moreouer you are greatly deceiued wheÌ„ ye thinke that all those whiche canne talke of tho Scriptures haue knowledge for there be verye many carnall Pratlers which seeme for to knowe much and yet are as blinde as Buzzardes these are naughty men not because they haue knowledge but because they want knowledge Ath. I cannot tell a man shall heare them saye a greate deale out of the Byble Zelot No doubt a great deale more thâ— they vnderstand now when such do not liue well doth it followe that Gods worde maketh them woorse nay yee be all blinde Asses whiche cannot see that because there is verye little true vnderstanding of Gods woorde among men therefore there is so much vncleanesse For as the holy Ghost saith Psal 119. 9. Wherewithall shall a young man clense his way euen by taking heed therto according to thy word Now when men doe not vnderstand the woorde howe shall they take heede to their wayes for to guyde them by the same And when GOD sayth the woorde doeth cleanse vs his meaning must needes bee that all such as are not purged thereby are foule and filthie in his eyes Ath. Yée haue of your preachers trâ—â— pulpit men and can saye very well but their déedes are as euill as other mens for who is more couetous then they they are neuer content vntill they haue heaped liuing vppon liuing Zeloâ— Such skilfull men as you thinke if a man can preache or rather as a number doe prattle and haue a rowling tongue and can make some shewe of learning that by and by hee is a trime man and hath great knowledge when as in deede hee hath no true knowledge For I count him to haue true knowledge whiche hath so learned Christe that hee is become a newe creature Therefore Saint Iohn in the 3. Chapter 5. 6. verses of his first Epistle speaking of Christe saith That he was made manifest to take away our sinnes and in him is no sinne Whosoeuer abideth in him sinneth not Whosoeuer sinneth hath not seene him nor knowne him Likewise in the first booke of Samuel cap. 2. vers 12. It is saide by the sonnes of Elye that they were the sonnes of Beliall and knewe not God and yet they were instructed in the lawe and taught the people And for mine owne part I coulde neuer perceiue that any wicked man coulde preache worth a button I meane concerning the cheefe thinge required in preaching which is the declaration of the power of the spirite which ought for to appeare to the conuersion of sinnefull men For to lay open points of doctrine they may doe it well Ath. It is not for vs that are simple men for to iudge who doth well and who doeth noâ— Zelot Yes that it is for Saint Iohn saieth trie the spirites whether they be of God Our Sauiour Christ sayeth my sheepe heare my voyce a straunger they will not heare Wherevpon it doeth followe that hee which knoweth not when pure doctrine and wholesome is vttered is not as yet among the number of the sheepe of Christ For if he were indued with the spirit of God he shoulde by the same spirite feele when wholesome doctrine is deliuered vnto him Ath. If a man bee learned then hee shall bee able to iudge what is sayle rightly otherwise hée cannot tell Zelot It is not learning alone whiche must iudge of sound preaching for there be manie learned men which cannot iudge wel as also there bee manie vnlearned which are verie well