By way of DIALOGUE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The First Part. P. SIr your humble servant I come to wait you upon a double account to give you thanks for the Civilities I have heretofore received from you and to spend in the best Company I can that short time I am allow'd to stay in England G. I protest Master it grieves me that contrary to our inclination we should be forc'd to be thus severe against you for to secure the peace of the kingdom And were it not that your Religion stands in opposition to the good and peaceable intentions which I believe some of you may have I do protest that I my self would heartily intercede for your staying and living quietly with us However you are very welcome P. Sir I know you to be of a very sweet nature by a long experience and I will requite your kindness by praying heartily for your conversion to the true Catholic Faith G. Master I thank you for your good will but I believe if your Prayers be heard I shall never be of your Religion for if it hath the truth yet therewith ye have mixt so many false Doctrins particular to your own Church that it can never be justly call'd The true Catholic Faith P. Sir you speak as you have been taught but did you well understand those things as you call false Doctrines I am sure you would be of another mind G. Well we are entred ab abrupto upon a Subject that will help us to pass away the time therefore I desire you my good Friend for our old acquaintance sake to let me know positively the truth of what your Church believes in the chiefest things we differ from you as it is taught and recorded by your most approved Doctors P. I will with all my heart as far as I am able and that you may not think I disguise any thing or speak my private Opinions I will bring the very words of the Council of Trent or Bellarmin or Stapleton as the Authentic Proofs of the truth of what I shall say ask you what you have a mind to know G. First let me enquire of what you believe concerning the Holy Scripture for we make it the Ground and the Rule of our Faith being persuaded that it conteins all things necessary to Salvation P. We are much of another mind for we hold that the Scripture doth not expresly contein all that is necessary to be believed or to be done i.e. that its Doctrine is defective in what concerns Faith and Morality Nos asserimus Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 3. in Scripturis non contineri expresse totam doctrinam necessariam sive de fide sive de moribus G. That 's very plain and I believe more than you dare say to those you endeavour to make your Proselytes P. Nay Sir before we proceed I must tell you that I expect you would render me like for like and cite the words of Cranmer or Calvin or whatever Authors they are you have your Doctrine from that it may be seen which of us hath the better Authorities for our several Opinions pray who taught you that all things necessary to salvation are contein'd in Scripture G. Our Blessed Saviour who approved the Jews opinion of believing that by the Scriptures they might have eternal life and therefore commanded them to search them John 5.39 Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifie of me And more expresly S. Paul who affirms that they are able to make us wise unto salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 c. being inspir'd by God These two Texts are of more weight with me than the contrary affirmations of twenty Cardinals And as for the Authors of our Religion we own none besides Christ and his blessed Apostles Those Doctrines of our Church which are positive are plainly contein'd in Scripture and the best Records of the Primitive Church and are own'd and believ'd by you also and the negatives which are against your Innovations can neither be disprov'd by Scripture nor the Antient Fathers but are generally included in the positive All this is to be seen in the learned labours of many of the Reformed Doctors I will not make our Discourse so tedious as to rehearse what they have said upon that subject therefore I desire you to be contented with a few plain Scriptures which I will bring to authorize our denying those Articles of your Roman Faith we have rejected P. Well do so if you will but let me tell you that Scripture is not to be the judge of Differences in Religion 'T is the Pope and Council must decide all Controversies and declare the true sense of Scripture Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 3. Judicem dicimus veri sensus Scripturae omnium Controversiarum esse Ecclesiam id est Pontificem cum Concilio G. I don't believe it for I find that God sends his People to the Law and to the Testimony to examin the Doctrine of the Prophets Isa 8.20 and I hope the Gospel may as well have the Privilege that by it we should examin the Doctrin of the Pope Christ tells the Saducees that they cried because they knew not the Scriptures It is said in the Parable of Dives Mar. 12.24 Luke 16.29 They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them And it is recorded to the praise of the people of Berea that they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so Acts 17.11 In all these the Scripture is made Judge of Controversies and by it the Doctrin of S. Paul himself is tried and examined P. But for all that the Scripture is very obscure and harder to be understood than the Notions of Metaphysie Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 1. Certe si scientia Metaphysicorum difficilior quomodo non obscurissima erit Scriptura quae de rebus longe altioribus agit And if the People should read it it would do them more harm than good for 't would be an occasion of their falling into error about those Doctrines that concern Faith and a good Life Et ibid. l. 2. c. 15 Populum non solum non eaperet fructum ex Scripturis sed etiam caperet detrimentum acciperet euim facillime occasionem errandi tum in doctrina fidei tum in praeceptis vitae morum Therefore all men ought to follow the Decisions of Popes and Councils that they may be guided in the truth G. Nay I would have the people follow the judgment of the Church they live in but I would have them to make use of their Rationality to chuse the Communion of the purest Church according to the Word of God and if they have learning enough according to the four first General Councils and the Primitive Christians and not deny their Reason and the plain meaning of Scripture and
make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do not give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19 7 8. The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I do n't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 4. We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. 3. c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— â— Joh. â— 1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Wordâ— to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till to morrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for Liberty and
deceived Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGVE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The Second Part. Pr. YOur Servant Sir I come to see how you do and to spend an hour with you according to my promise G. Sir you are very welcome I am glad to see you and I was very impatient of your coming as much to enjoy your good company my self as to procure it to this old acquaintance of mine who long'd for it as much as I did Pr. Ha I doubt you have too many such acquaintances I know the man and am sorry to see you should keep company with him an Enemy to Christ and Christian Religion Take heed Sir Antichrist is of a very seducing Spirit Pa. Oh how now Master you fall foul upon me already that 's a very coarse Complement to salute me with the odious name of Antichrist But I hope you are not in earnest for my part I am glad to see you and desire to shake hands with you if it will not defile the holiness of yours Pr. Avoid Satan I would not have so much as your shadow to touch me and I am sorry to polute mine eyes with the sight of such a foul object as you are no there ought to be no communication betwixt light and darkness Pa. That 's true too but I 'll warrant you you and I are much of a dye and I am not of so dark a colour as you think I dare say for all your great aversion to me your Religion and mine differ but a little or at least nothing so much as that of the Church of England which you think comes very near to ours I can make it appear that we of Rome are agreed in many things with the English Presbyterians wherein we greatly differ from other Protestants come my good Friend let you and I dispute the case a little you shall find that I 'll give you great satisfaction in it Pr. These be impertinent brags and paradoxes I need no satisfaction in the case I am sure enough of the contrary There are no men under the Sun that hate and abhor Popery so much as we do therefore you may spare your labour and keep your breath for a better use G. Pray Sir don't shrink or else you 'll give him occasion to insult and me to be doubtful Sure after having been these twenty years set about the extirpation of Popery you are not afraid of being now prov'd a Papist Come make him repent of his bold challenge and make it appear that your practice and opinions are as averse to Rome as your words and clamors have been P. Yet still I stand upon my first ground you come very near to the Church of Rome in many things wherein you differ from the Church of England even in those things that are counted the worst of our errours Pr. I shall quickly confute your false and daring Assertion And first your Church doth greatly derogate from the Word of God and makes it inferiour to her Traditions and the Determinations of her Popes and Councils Can you charge us with any such thing Pa. Yes that I can You do greatly undervalue the same Divine Word to set up your Sermons the higher you perswade your people that that is the only Preaching and the true and only Word of God which you deliver out of your Pulpits so that your own Discourses are more attended and more regarded than the Bible it self And so prevalent is this opinion that those of your sort that go to the Parish Churches defer to go in while the Psalms the Chapters and the Epistle and Gospel are reading as if these were not worth the hearing But what is of the mans own making they will listen to attentively and herhaps write it down and repeat it with a great deal of Devotion Gods Word is but a Woodden Dagger with you it doth not reach the heart but the worst Sermon in your Conventicles pierceth the very soul and makes the people sigh and groan and take on most pitifully the powerfulness of Preaching indangers the very heart-strings And so current 't is amongst you that your Preaching is the Word of God that 't is call'd by the name of The Gospel and to hear it is made a Mark of Election So Mr. Jeremiah Burroughs told the Parliament Serm. print 1645. p. 2. When I consider this place Westminster the extraordinary hand of God in bringing the Gospel to be preacht to you here in power those thoughts presently arise there is hope that there are many souls here belonging to Gods Election surely many will come in and imbrace the Gospel here And by the transcribing those sacred Oracles men were to judge of the condition their souls were in Thomas Palmer in a Sermon of his tells the people 1644. p. 28. That to hear Sermons and not write them is like taking water in a Sieve You keep a Shop-Book saith he O be perswaded to keep a Soul-Book that you may know how your Spiritual Estate stands belike those that had much written had very rich souls what increase or decrease of Grace you make this recording of revealed Truths and Soul-experiences from God would be of admirable use in time of trouble This is the difference in the case we undervalue Scripture that we may heed the more the Decrees of our Pope and you that you may the better attend to the dictates of every one of your Sermonizers Pr. I know all you can alledge will come short of what you would prove therefore I don't intend to trouble my self with answering your impertinencies it would but make our Discourse too tedious let this Gentleman be judge betwixt you and I who are in the right Pa. That will be very well I 'll follow your example and endeavour to shorten our Dialogue by pleading guilty t every Article Charge our Religion with what you will I 'll deny nothing but shew you your own face in that Mirrour you shall reach to me Come proceed Pr. In your publick Worship you use an unknown Tongue which the people doth not understand and thereby you keep them in ignorance that they may not be able to discern the errours of your Religion I am sure you can tax us with no such thing for we make all things plain to our hearers and they are an understanding and a knowing people who have more light in spiritual matters than any people whatsoever Pa. You do but fancy so they are as ignorant as any of us and they understand as little what you say though you speak English yet you speak an unknown Language to the people for you have so spiritualiz'd Religion that you have made riddles and mysteries of the plainest of its Doctrines it all consists in new-coin'd phrases and spiritual notions and fancies and secrets Pray hear what Mr. Francis Cheynell preacht before the Parliament Serm. 1646. p. 2. and 3. God
Durell speaks as if there was hardly any difference betwixt you and the Church of England Bonasius Vapul 1672. p. 80. It may be worth saith he the consideration of those who are in Authority whether they may not enjoy Ecclesiastical Preferments who differ from their Brethren only in some few points of Discipline for as to the Essentials of Discipline I am not so quick-sighted as to find that we disagree c. But if it be so the more wicked you who have made crimes and enormities of a few indifferent points of Discipline What was it the terderness oâ— your Consciences that made a few Ceremonies to be Popery and Antichristianism so that upon their account you must call upon the people in Sion to war against Babylon Either you are the greatest Cheats in the World or else you differ from your Church at least in those points wherein as I have shewn you come so near to us chuse you which you please As for your loving and honouring the reformed Churches beyond Sea and the first Reformators of this I find no such thing in your Books but rather that you lov'd and honour'd your selves far beyond them all Mr. Dury in his Sermon to the Parliament upon these words Depart ye c. Isai 52.11 is pretty plain in it p. 5. I chose these words saith he because the destruction of Babylon and the deliverance of the Church out of it is the great work which God intends to accomplish by the Gospel in these latter times and because of the relation wherein we do stand to it for I conceive that God is not only working out our deliverance to bring us out of Babylon at this time c. Where could you have been worse than in Babylon before the good men in King Edward the fixth's time had done any thing towards a Reformation So you may hear him say at the 25 pag. None of all the Magistrates or Ministers of other Nations have ever given such an answer to this Call to come out of Babylon as you and we of the Ministry and this people have done for we have undertaken the Cause in the full extent thereof therefore we are in this employment nearer unto God than any others and he is more interest in us and in Scotland than in any other Nation whatsoever Two Witnesses more I hope will make the thing credible Mr. Boden in his Sermon Revel 18.6 Reward her as p. 9. c. saith 'T is no wonder that our forefathers did little or nothing against the Beast and the Babylonians for their eyes were blinded they could not see to work much less to fight but that we having clear visions and full discoveries made of the Beast and her abominations should sit still and be careless and suffer her for ever to play her beastly pranks is a most deadly shame and stain unto us And Mr. Tho. Goodwin in his foresaid Sermon Others had had the honour in the first Age of reforming p. 52. and we had been like blear-eyed Leah yet since we have been abundantly the more fruitful of Saints faithful and chosen And indeed the truth is you went so far beyond all other Reformers that you might well despise them as having done their work very imperfectly to what you did Pr. I took you to be but a Priest but I doubt you are a Jesuite too for you can turn other mens words to what sense you please I believe those good men meant no such thing as the interpretation you give to their words But whether they did or no 't is nothing to us we pin our faith upon no mans sleeve if they have said or done any thing amiss we utterly disclaim it We own the Kings Supreme Authority and we own the Doctrine of the Church of England and to prove the contrary by particular mens words as you have endeavoured to do is altogether lost labour because their Opinions is not the Rule we follow So that all your Quotations evince nothing of what you intended and you well deserve to be laugh'd at for having taken such a huge deal of bootless pains in repeating other mens words Pa. Very well 't is but making up your mouth and wiping of it and looking very demure and then you have done nothing and so you think you can abuse the world everlastingly But stay Sir dear-bought experience hath taught us that your goodly words are little to be trusted and you have approved your selves such incomparable Jugglers that we will see what you tell us before we believe it In the highest of your Rebellion you were for the King forsooth much more now he reigns Th. Palmer was Minister of the Army raised for King and Parliament as he stiles himself in the Title of his Sermon 1644. Mr. Beech at the Siege of Basing was fighting for the King pag. 24. We honour the King we fight for him we resolve though it cost us our lives we will have his love and his presence again And John Arrowsmith before the House of Commons calls him his Dear Sovereign 1613. p. 13. They saith he that brought our King into this Civil War are a Generation of scornful men that laugh at our Builders as Sanballat and his Complices did at Nehemiah What is this thing as ye do will ye rebel against the King a Generation which can neither find in their hearts to afford a good word of advice to our Dread and Dear Sovereign c. But 't is more than probable that by a worse than Jesuitical Equivocation you meant only a notional King the workmanship of your deceitful Brains for so we find a cunning distinction between the King and the Kings Person Tho. Case in his Sermon to the Court-Martial on 2 Chron. 29.6 7. And Jehoshaphat said unto the Judges Take heed what ye do c Tell them That though they had not a Jehoshaphat to give them that charge in his personal capacity yet they had him in his political capacity So Robert Austin D. D. printed a Book intending to prove 1644. That by the Oath of Allegiance the Parliament was bound to take up Arms though against the Kings personal command for the just defence of the Kings Person Crown and Dignity So you might be sure by such means ever to be for him and have him of your side whatever you did for so Mr. Burroughs prov'd by the same art pag. 27. That his most Loyal Party was not fighting against the King but for the King for the preservation of true Regal Power in the King and his Posterity and to rescue him from the hands of evil men who were his greatest Enemies And he said pag. 57. That the Saints and most Religious had ventured their Lives Fortunes Children and all for the safety of the King One would have taken him then for a great Royalist but that there was an unlucky Equivocation in the case The Scripture saith he pag. 28. bids us to be