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heart_n	believe_v	preach_v	word_n	3,295	5	4.6829	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14406	Actes of conference in religion, holden at Paris, betweene two papist doctours of Sorbone, and two godlie ministers of the Church. Dravven out of French into English, by Geffraie Fenton; Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English.	Fenton, Geoffrey, Sir, 1539?-1608.; Vigor, Simon, d. 1575.; Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591.; Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau.; L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597.	1571 (1571)	STC 24726.5; ESTC S112583	180,168	252

conference to the ende it dissolue afore this matter be cleared In which respect to conclude and resolue in all the conference we are determined with Gods grace to set downe in writing no lesse briefly than as clearly as we can all that which God hath taught vs and we learned by his word of these matters as wel to satisfie our duty to God and his honor our obedience to the Lorde of Neuers and the Lady of Buyllon as also to content in the end and edifye the church A conclusion and resolution of the pointes aswell of the supper as of the Masse contayning that which the Ministers beleue and teach therof in their churches by the woord of God. THe ende soueraigne felicitie of men is to be knit with God dwel in him for that it is the onely meane by which their desires may be contented and satisfied and their harts and mindes fully deliuered from the hard and cruell seruitude of sinne and al other passions lustes feares distrusts which oppresse thē the same being the occasion that S. Paule placed perfect blessednesse and euerlasting rest of the happy in that the God is in them all things But bicause mē are naturally corrupt and vicious and of the contrary God is pure and holy in all perfection the difficulty is how to chuse the meane by which they may approche vnto him seing there is no societie betwene light and darknes nor any cōmunion betwene iustice and iniquity This meane cannot be found in them bicause that of them selues they are altogether inable and incapable to be raysed from the miserie and malediction whereunto they are falne headlong in such sorte as being blynde of vnderstanding they cannot knowe what is good for them and muche lesse séeke for it being frowarde and of hardened heartes And therfore it is necessary to forsake and come out of themselues and searche the meane aforesaid in Iesus Christ who was giuen vnto them of the father to be their iustice wysedome sanctification redemption way lyfe and truth Onely there restes now to know how they may be vnited and conioyned with him The Apostle teacheth vs it is done by faith by which Iesus Christ dwelleth in our heartes and restes in vs so that he and we are made all one as he is one wyth his father There be two principall causes of this fayth the one is outward and the other inwarde The inwarde is the holy spirite which is called a spirite of faith bicause he is the author thereof and hath created and produced it in the hearts of men inclining and disposing them to receiue in all obedience the worde and promise of God preached vnto them by the faithfull Executors and Ministers of the same whiche word is the externall cause of faith And as this faith increaseth and riseth by degrées so doth also the vnitie wée haue with Iesus Christ and by this meane with God vntyll as S. Paule saith that we concurre and méete all together in the vnitie of the faith and knowledge of the sonne of God in perfect man in the maner of a perfect stature of Christ This encrease of faith comes by the operation and vertue of the holy spirite which was the originall and first author of it And then after by the continuance of the worde purely preached and pronounced And lastly by the lawfull vse of the Sacramentes prouided as seales for the certaintye and confirmation of the fayth and assurance which we haue of the sayde coniunction with God by Iesus Christ together with participation of all the benefites grauntes giftes graces and blessinges which are purchased for vs by his fauour as remission of synnes our regeneration and mortification of the flesh with his concupiscence For the better signification of which thinges and to assure vs of the exhibition and vse of the same Baptisme was ordayned of God to the ende that in the water sprinkled vpon our bodies and in the promise of God added therewith we may behold as wyth our eyes the inuisible grace which God doth to vs to wash vs and make vs cleane of our spirituall ordures and so to sanctifie vs and make vs new creatures as also to assure vs continuallye of the eternall lyfe and make vs encrease in the hope we haue by our participatiō of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for our redemption and of his bloud shed for the remission of our synnes The bread and wyne are distributed to vs in the supper by the ordinance of Iesus Christ But as we acknowledge an vnitie and sacramentall coniunction betwene the exterior signe and the thing signified by it so we saye of the other side that betwene them both there is such a distinction that the one ought not to be confused with the other neither the spirituall thing so tyed to the corporall which representes it that either the one without the other cannot be receiued or by necessity they both bée alwayes indeuidablye knyt together Whereof it followeth that such are in errour who hold that in the supper the bread is transnatured into the substāce of the body of Iesus Christ And likewise those that say it is there knit and vnited corporally so that who soeuer receiues takes those signes be he faithfull or infidel takes and receiues immediately the thing signified by them Which errour wyth the moste part of others crept in vpon this matter hath proceeded in that men haue not well comprehended what it is to eate the body and drinke the bloud of Iesus Christ which ought not to be vnderstand as a maner that corporal meates are taken eaten but onely of a spirituall fashion as is declared in the sixt of S. Iohn which consistes in that that Iesus Christ dwelles in vs and we in him the same being done by the faith we haue in him As S. Augustine teacheth in his .25 treatise vpon S. Iohn saying why doest thou prepare thy belly and thy teeth beleue and thou hast eaten it Likewise in his third booke of Christian doctrine chap. 16. as followeth whē Iesus Christ saith if you eate not the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you shall not haue lyfe in you It seemes he commaundes to commit a great crime so that it is a figure by the which we ought not vnderstand other thing but that we must communicate with the passion of the Lord and kepe in memorie that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. Then the eating of the flesh and body of Iesus Christ is no other thyng than a straight coniunction and vnitie wée haue with hym which is wrought by the fayth we repose in his promises euen as by the mutuall promises made and receiued betwene a man and his wyfe the mariage concludes and is established betwene them wherein albeit being so knit they happen by any occasion to be seperate and farre of one from the other touching their bodies yet are they

for all that one flesh and one body by meane of the societie and matrimoniall acquaintaunce betwene them In like sort be it that Iesus Christ with whom we are knyt and vnited by faith and trust we haue in him and in his promises be as in respect of his body resident in heauen and we remaine here on earth so that there is a great distance betwene him and vs touching his bodye yet that doth not hinder vs to be flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones and that he is not our head and we his mēbers he our husband and we his spouse that we are not of one self body tyed with him that we are not cloathed of him and that we dwell not in him as the braunches in the vine Neither is there distance of time or place what soeuer it be nor difference of seasons which may hinder that coniunction that the faithfull eate truly his flesh and blood For as the auncient Fathers notwithstandyng they were two or three thousande yeares afore Christ dyed yet forbare not to communicate in his flesh crucified and eate the same meate spirituallye which we eate and drinke the same drink spiritually which we drinke so the faythfull also whiche are comen twelue or fiftene hundreth yeares after forbeare not in what place soeuer they be to participate as the Fathers with the same meate and drinke which they did Neither is there anye other difference betwene the eating of the Fathers that were before the comming of Iesus Christ and suche as haue followed hym but the reason of the more or of the lesse whiche is that in the one there is more ample and expresse declaration of Gods good wyll towardes vs than in the other By which we ought to conclude that from the beginning of the world vntyl the ende there was neuer nor euer shall be other coniunction betwene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Churche than spirituall that is purchased by the spirite of god For euen as there is but one fayth in the Fathers and in vs which considereth alwayes on the one and other syde our Lorde Iesus Christe euen so are not wée conioyned with him in other sorte than they were So that as the Fathers had no other societie or communication then spirituall euen so it followeth also that we neither are nor can be otherwise vnited with him than spiritually And yet do we not say that we and the Fathers are not fleshe of hys flesh and bones of his bones that altogether we participate not as wel with his humanitie as with his diuinitie But all our saying and opinion stretcheth to this that this participation which we haue there is by the operation and vertue of the holy spirite Which Iesus Christ in S. Iohn speaking of this coniunction teacheth clearelye in these fewe wordes the thinges whereof I speake to you are the spirite and life as also S. Paule our Fathers sayth he haue eaten the same spirituall meate and dronke the same spirituall drinke Wherein when we speake of thys spirituall eating both in vs and in our Fathers it must not be thought therefore that we would reiect the holye Supper of the Lord or once thinke that in the same the vse of breade and wyne is superfluous no more then the vse of the water in the Baptisme For our Lorde knowing the hardnesse of our vnderstanding together wyth the infirmitie and weakenesse of oure hearts and by a pitie compassion he hath of vs seekyng to remedye the same was not onely content to leaue vnto vs the ministerie of hys word to assure vs of the participation which we haue in hys flesh and bloud and all the benefites lykewyse depending thereupon But he hath also added thereunto the signes of breade and wyne which he hath annexed to his word as seales to seale in our heartes by the vse of the same the fayth which wée haue of the sayd coniunction by his woord Like as it dyd not suffise him to haue contracted the alliance with Abraham by the word and promise he made him but he added further the signe of Circumcision as a seale to confirme and assure more amply the sayd alliance To the ende then that euery one vnderstande what is the supper of the Lord and also what we beleue and teach of it ther must be considered and acknowledged in the same three thinges First the ordinaunce of the Lord contayned in hys woorde and declared by his Minister according to his commaundement By the which word this holy ceremony was ordained and established in the Churche to edifie and entertayne the members of the same which must be diligentlye obserued as to haue it in such honour and reuerence as appertaineth and not to put it on the beadroll or sorte of other ceremonies who haue no other ground or reason of authoritie than the onely wil and traditions of men yet there must be héede taken that by the institution and ordinance whereof we speake ther is vnderstanded a certaine pronunciation of words or any vertue which is hid in them as do the prests of the Romish church who by ignorance and their superstitious opinion thinke to haue consecrated and transubstanciated the bread and wyne which is in their Masse by the vertue of fiue wordes Hoc est enim corpus meum breathed and pronounced vpon the elementes Wherein they are no lesse deceiued than abused bicause the woord which is the formall cause of the sacrament is not a word sayd and spoken simply but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God don by the Minister according to his cōmaundement and a predication of the death of Iesus Christ wyth the fruite of the same by the which the heartes of the hearers are raysed into contemplation and meditation of his benefites and theyr faith kyndled and enflamed in his loue And where this is not done as is sayd we must not thynke that the elementes are sacramentes as S. Augustine teacheth vppon S. Iohn 80. Treatise in these termes from whence comes this vertue to the water that in touching the bodie it washeth the heart but that it is done by the woord not bicause it is pronounced but by reason it is beléeued this woorde is the woorde of faith which we preache sayeth the Apostle which is if we confesse with our mouthe that Christe is the Lord and beleeue in our heart that God hath raised him from the deade we shal be saued wherin continuing his matter he addes in the end these woordes this woorde of faithe which we preache is the same without doubt by which baptisme is consecrated to the end it may clense and washe The ministers inferre héere before two things the one that the woorde of Consecration is not as is saide a simple pronunciation but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance with all the misterie of the deathe of Iesus Christe The other that the signes and Elementes consecrated are not chaunged in

Neuers made request that after their Obiections and Aunsweres they would procéede to Resolution on both sides touching the conference the day before According to which motion the Doctors say that to iudge of a Booke whether it be written of the holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a Canonicall Booke from an Apocriphal or Ecclesiastical we must not rest vpon a priuate or particulare inspiration because a singulare persone can not haue any ordinarie certaintie that it is a true Reuelation of the holy spirite but stay vpon the common consent and accorde of the vniuersal churche And also that God notwithstanding he might haue reuealed to euery one the true knowledge necessary to saluation yet he hathe ordained a certaine meane to attaine to faithe which is a truthe reuealed meaning by the hearing of Gods woord preached by lawfull ministers sent by the pastors of the true churche as appeareth by the ●exte of S. Paule to the Romaines .10 and Ephes 4. So that if they meane to haue faithe and inwarde Reuelation of the knowledge of saluation come by the hearing of Gods woorde lawfully preached by the ministers of the same according to the ordinarie meane of assurance that we haue the inwarde Reuelation it must necessarily be assured that the woorde by which faithe is gotten hath bene preached by the lawfull ministers of the true church so by consequence be assured of the church afore the inward Reuelation obseruing the meane which Iesus Christe folowed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inwarde Reuelation is when it is referred to the common consente of the church And that of the contrary euery pretēded inward inspiration particulare or priuate is a false persuasion if it differ from the common accorde of the churche for Gods spirite is not particulare but common They say also that to take a false Doctrine we must examine it to know whether it be priuate or common like as our Lord in S. Iohn 8. hathe giuen a true marke saying Qui de se loquitur mendatium loquitur he that saith any thing of himselfe and his proper inspiration is a lier In like sorte it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man Prophecie against the Prophetes of Israel which Prophecie say to suche as Prophecie in their heart heare the woorde of the Lorde So saithe the Lord cursse be vpon the false Prophets who follow their spirite and haue seene nothing And a little after they sée vaine things and a Diuination ful of dreames saying the Lord saythe and the Lord sent them not and yet they haue giuen assuraunce to confirme the woorde of their Prophesie which false Prophets said they had 〈◊〉 inwarde Reuelation and the woorde of God. They woulde also that it be well wayed and considered that the stay of religion grounded and assured vppon an inwarde inspiration is the foundation of many sectes of our time as Anabaptistes and Swinfeldiens who lay their Doctrines vpon priuate ●●●elations alleaging proper places to serue them as a grounde of their Doctrine which the ministers inferred yesterday as Ieremie in the .3 Chap. Ioel. 2. and S. Paule 1. Cor. 2. The which being considered by Brentius and Bucer they haue confessed that by the only tradition of the church we were ascertained of the Bookes of the holy scripture according to the Doctrine of the auncientes as S. Ierome who confesseth to haue receiued by tradition of the churche and by the same to haue knowne that there be foure gospels Origen also saithe asmuch who reciting the Canonical Bookes of the newe Testament saith I haue learned by tradition that there be foure gospels neither is there foūd any auncient catholike that hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of Bookes vpon his only priuate and particulare inspiration And S. August lib. confess ca. 25 ●seth these woordes Veritas tua Domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admouensne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur ca. And touching the Bookes of the olde Testament whiche the Ministers will not receiue as Canonical by the iudgement of their inwarde Reuelation the Doctors auouche that before S. Augustines time or at the least in his time in the vniuersall churche all the Bookes contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued as Canonicall according to the testimonie of the Councel of Carthage where S Augustine was present and also the Councell Laodicene the Doctors also saie that if by inwarde inspiration we must iudge of Bookes the Fathers that assisted those Councels had it or at leaste might persuade them selues to haue it with more assurance than many others But where the Ministers saie that by theire inwarde Reuelation they iudge that they are not Canonicall 〈◊〉 Doctors referre to iudgemente who oughte soonest to b●●●●eued either the inspiration of the Auncientes receiued by the Churche by so many hundred yeres vntil this time or the priuate and particulare inspiration of the newe Ministers They saie further that they offer to proue that the Aunciente Fathers euen suche as w●●e neare the Apostles time as Irenaeus S. Cyprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others vse testimonies of Bookes reiected by the Ministers euen in the proofe of the Doctrine against Heretikes yea S. Augustine him selfe in the seconde Booke of Christian Doctrine Chap. 2. puttes all those Bookes amongeste the Canonicalles as also Damascene in the fourthe Booke De Orthodoxa Fide Chap. 18. So that to knowe if a man haue the spirite of God to discerne and iudge of the Bookes of the Scripture it behooues to reste vpon the common consente and accorde of the Churche as being the ordinarie meane of God lefte for that effecte experience also whiche maie be made is a sufficiente Argumente to conuince that the Faithfull by the inwarde inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall Bookes from the pretended Apocryphall which mighte be easily verefied if there were here at this presente euen somme of the Religion pretended reformed to whom not hauing bene as yet instructed in the diuision of Bookes if those Bookes were presented whiche the Ministers holde for Apocryphal they would not distinguish them in any sort from the other Bookes of the holy Bible And vpon all they conclude that if a man haue Goddes sprite c. vt supra Aunswere Touching the firste Article the Ministers were neuer of opinion as appeares in their former aunsweres that their Religion was grounded vppon theire particulare Reuelations but vpon the woorde of God according as it is sette foorthe in the Writinges of the Prophetes and Apostles the truthe of whiche they saide was moste principally assured by the testimonie and Reuelation of the holy Sprite They saie also that Faithe is not the Truthe in proper speache but the persuasion of the Truthe whiche is taughte vs in the Scripture Like as also this Faithe is not of our owne getting but a pure

other Auncientes teache vs clearely the manner howe to make our profite of the Faithe wée haue in the Omnipotencie of God which is in referring it to his Will and iudging his Will by his Woorde and not by false imaginations whiche either our sprites maye conceiue or others woulde propone to vs as Sathan did to Iesus Christe whom he wente aboute to induce to throwe him selfe headlong vnder a vaine truste to be succoured by the Omnipotency of God. And likewise the Monarchians who vnder the colour and pretence of Gods almightinesse which thei gathered of other myracles would proue establish their Heresies and take away the personal distinction which is betwéene the Father and the Sonne saying that God being almighty might by that reason make him selfe Father and Sonne altogether There be also Anabaptistes in these later times who vnder a vaine assurance they repose in Gods almightinesse which hope that he can nourish them as he did the byrdes will not incline to trauel Many other such like or greater inconueniences may happen to al those who hauing such wandring dispersed thoughts of the omnipotency of God would not restraine nor refer them to his wil which we see is also happened to the Doctors who seeking to measure Gods almightinesse rather by their imaginations thā by his wil woord are as S. Paule saith become vaine in their discourse their harts forsaken of vnderstanding are fillrd with darkenesse And as in seeking to behold the maiesty of God without the limits boundes which he hath appointed in his word they are becom ouerwhelmed engulphed in his glory so thei are also fallen into the which thei touched in their own resolution that bicause they haue not taken Goddes Woorde for theire guide nor followed the Pathes and footesteppes of his Holy Spirite they are swarued from Faythe whiche contrary to the opinion of the Doctours is not defaced nor reuersed by the consideration of creatures woorkes of God which are as mirrours of his glory and Diuinitie if not that by the same wée might be turned from the promisses of God by the which wée are assured of his wil and his Omnipotencie which doothe warrante and assure to vs the effectes and accomplishmentes of this his Holy will which maye be clearely seene and obserued in those that were sent by Moyses to espie and knowe the Lande of the Chananites twoo of the which Iosua and Caleb could neuer be drawne from the truste they had put in their God bicause that turning their mindes from the consideration of all such thinges as mighte kindle doubte in them as from the strength and munition of Townes the numbers force weapons and experience of the Countrie men they fixed their mindes vpon the onely remembraunce and contemplation of the promisses whiche God had made them where of the contrary others forgetting the saide promisses and considering nothing but what they sawe afore their eies fell and made to fal all the people with them into this cursed and damnable infidelitie for the which they were so graeeuously punished in the Deserte and shut out of the entry and ioy promised by God to their Auncestours And in the example of Abraham whose Faithe remained firme and stable chiefly by the consideration of the promise and will of God as S. Paule saith so that the consideration of Goddes Omnipotencie comes after to susteine and accompany that which he had of the promisse By these examples wée may sée what daunger there is to departe and fall from neuer so litle the woorde of God by which wee are guided to the knowledge of his Will and by the knowledge of his Will wée are drawne to the consideration and iudgemente wee oughte to haue of his Omnipotencie For wante whereof the Doctoures are fallen into the errours and madde fansies proponed to vs in their laste resolution that the Body of Iesus Christe at one instant may be in diuers places which as it is contrary to the faith we ought to haue and holde constantly of the wisdome prouidence and eternall truthe of God So likewise it is against the faith we ought to haue of the humanitie of our lord Neither doth that serue any thing to proue and cōfirme their error which they alleage chiefly of S. Ierome againste Vigilantius where his speeche importes no other matter than that the soules of the holy ones are inclosed in a certaine prisone as Vigilantius dreamed but doe accompanie the Lambe where so euer he goeth neither that which they alleage of S. Augustine in his Booke of the care we ought to haue of the deade séeing in the same Booke he himselfe confesseth that he standes doubtfull of that which the Doctoures assure and muche lesse the three authorities alleaged of S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ambrose and S. Augustine whose sentences ought to be vnderstande of the sacrament and not of the thing signified by the sacrament as we hope to vnfolde at large in the next conference We maruel much that the Doctors draw backe thus and will not enter but vnwillingly into the conference of their Masse to defende it as also of the supper celebrated in the reformed Churches to impugne it For seeing they holde it as the principall grounde of their Religion and propone it as a meane to saluation to all the world therefore in respecte not to be found seducers or light to beléeue or teach a thing which is not certaine nor well assured they ought to stand continually furnished with reasons bothe to proue and defend readily that which they beleeue and teache and also to conuince suche as would denie it But héere the worlde may discerne what is a wicked conscience who being feareful esch●es alwayes the light combate it is long since we haue vrged them with importunities to enter into conference of these two pointes and the rather to induce them to it we haue alleaged that it was the ende and purpose why the assembly was erected and that the Dutchesse of Buyllon in whose respect the companie mette had required it publikely once or twice like as also for oure partes we had often pro●essed not to come thither in other regarde than to satisfie the Duchesse in that point and not to be examined by the Doctors as they falsly pretende For we delite not to go to such Doctors to be examined to be priests as also to be taught in pointes of religion and to knowe the truthe we would not choose suche maisters nor haunte their schooles to suche ende Notwithstanding all which declarations repeated so often by vs yet the Doctoures haue alwayes hitherto deferred to conferre of the sayde pointes exspecting as is most likely some occasion to dissolue and ende the said conference afore there be any beginning to speake of it albeit if they were ledde with any zeale to Gods honoure and the edifying of his churche they oughte to enforce by al their meanes that these two pointes mighte be wholy reuealed and resolued whether

firste of Auguste at seuen or eight of the clocke in the Euening 1566. AFter wée had giuen our Resolution vppon the Article of Goddes Omnipotencie wee ment not eftsoones to returne vpon that Argument as hauing already sufficiently handled it but suche is the horrour of the newe Blasphemies conteined in the laste pamphelet of the Ministers that against our saide meaning wée are forced if not to reply at the leaste to admonish them together with the Readers of this presente conference in the matter of the saide moste execrable blasphemies with suche are vrged to confesse who will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the Body of Iesus Christ in the Sacramente of the Aultare are not ashamed to deny also euen the power of God him selfe The consideration whereof as wée hope will not onely confirme the Catholikes in the faith of the saide Article but also with Goddes aide bring home againe many that are strayed and separated from the Catholike Churche vpon the vnderstanding of the detestable erroures and blasphemies succéeding with the contradiction to the Real presence of the Body of our Lorde in the saide Sacramente whiche might also serue the Ministers for their conuersion if without passion they woulde examine sincerely iudge of the reasons actes proponed touching the power of God where as resisting the Holy Sprite in place to confesse their errours they are turned into all sortes of wrongs and iniuries againste suche as of good will reuealed them misconstruing our purpose as not to tende but to deface and roote them out wherin as wée were neuer moued so muche as in thoughte so of the contrary we desired nothing more than the saluation of the Ministers togither with all suche as were fallen from the true Catholike Churche whereof what better witnesse can we prefer than that in our ordinarie preaching we persuade the people to pray to God for them only we séeke to roote vp the raigne and kingdome of Sathan and to abolish all heresies and peruerse Doctrine rather by the preaching of Gods worde than any other meane And much do we maruel that the Ministers séeme so hotly netled against vs in their laste Aunsweres séeing it is without occasion on our side as only chalenging many of our propositions to containe matter of blasphemy which they might haue suffised either to denie or disproue leauing the Readers to iudge without entring into so warme choler seeing that as they make profession of pacience and modestie so though they were vrged in iniurie yet they shuld not enforce reuēge They ought to remember the goodly titles wherwith they honoure the Catholike doctrine as with the name of superstition idolatrie impietie abhomination and many other like yea not sparing the personnes calling the Popes Bishops and Priestes Antichristes and ministers of Sathan Against which checkes we are cōtent when occasion moues to proue by Gods woorde that such titles are inconuenient no lesse to the persons than to the Doctrine preached by them And so albeit the ministers their furie deserue a sharpe replie yet to qualifie their Waspishe stomakes we will forbeare to Aunswere the iniuries that touche our persons and estates and leauing all to the iudgement of the Readers without passion we will only proceede to the pointes that concernes the Doctrine In the firste place the ministers do great wrong to vs and oures to resemble vs with the Donatistes as imputing falsly to vs to drawe the Church into a certaine place as did the Donatistes who placed hir onely in Afrike For it is moste manifest that we neither knowe nor confesse other Churche then the Catholike who as the name beares hathe bene visibly since the Apostles and stretcheth thorow all the world in what Region Countrey or place so euer the faithfull beléeuing in Iesus Christ be albeit we reuerence the Romish church as amongst others the first and principal as Ireneus Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Augustine with other Auncientes gaue hir this honor to confesse hir principally and as mother of all the other Churches And therfore with farre more iust reason that obiection might be applied against the ministers who can not say that their Churche is Catholike as hauing taken hir originall in our time séene and knowne at Geneua and founded vppon the priuate opinion of one man without that in any time before it can be shewed that any suche opion hathe bene holden in any nation what so euer which shal be handled in his order when we discende to examine the errors maintained by the Ministers against the Article I beléeue the holy Catholike Churche For the rest the Ministers oughte not to haue alleaged the violence crueltie and furie of the Donatistes againste the Catholikes seeing suche example condemnes them and their like But bicause it doth but kindle a memorie of the hurts passed which Fraunce hathe suffred by the setting on of the Ministers and for feare to stirre vp eftsoones to newe wrongs we will stay no longer vpon this spéeche shewing notwithstanding to the Ministers that the Donatistes reproched the Catholikes to endure persecution by them and that to roote them vp they solicited Emperoures and Magistrates as the Ministers doe euill applie to vs who confesse to desire firste of all the Conuersion of all Sectes and if they will not come to amendment that then by good and holy lawes the Magistrates to lay suche punishment vppon them as God be not blasphemed nor the people tormented according to the Doctrine of S. Augustine in an Epistle sent ad Vincentium contra Denatistas where he Confesseth that the Catholikes persecuted the Donatistes as of the contrarie the Donatistes afflicted also the Catholikes Onely their persecutions differed for the Catholykes dyd not execute but by the Magistrates and that procéeded of Charitie to roote vp the euil which hindered the publike peace and tranquillitie where of the contrary the Donatistes persecuted without aucthoritie of the Magistrate and procéeded of malice pretending nothing but ruine and subuersion S. Augustine allowes the firste to be good and according to God and the seconde he makes to be wicked and of the inspiration of Sathan wherin he brings many examples of the scripture we haue stand somewhat long vppon this pointe the rather to purge the slaunder which the Ministers haue laide vpon vs as that in our preachings wrytings and conference we haue not searched but their destruction and alwayes to persecute them construing it as a matter of particulare hate againste them and not of charitie and zeale to the truthe to conuert as wel the ministers as suche as are seduced and abused by them wherein we call God to witnesse and protest all the contrarie with request to the ministers to beléeue vs attending Goddes iudgement vppon it who is the only searcher of the heartes and affections of men Touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie bicause he can doe all that he will if they would haue red the wrytings of S. Thomas whose