formality of speech doth import a promise in the future not a duty in the Subjunctive yet the promise doth not include an impossibility of error no more then the promise made to your Church as you suppose doth exclude all error but that which is destructive Thirdly The future in the Hebrew doth not contradict a subjunctive in the interpretation when the scope bears it since the Hebrews as you may know have no proper Subjunctive And it is proper to the scope to understand it as of duty they should keep knowledge whereupon â—â—ey are charged for breach of duty therefore our Interpretation in this is more sound then your dispute upon it And therefore that which you say in your 19. Number that any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the Known Doctrine of the Church then let him rest securely when he knowes that that is unreasonable because the Priests are not Infallible May he not rest more securely in Scripture for the Church in all things is not as before infallible the Scripture is in all which it proposeth but the Church you say is not in danger of taking in any damnative error Well but the Scriptures sets out none at all but all things are not determined in Scripture Well but all things are not determined in the Church but all things necessary are taught in the Church which may keep us from damnative error Well and are not all things necessary taught in the Scripture why then not to the Law and Testimony why to the Cistern when we may have it at the Fountain why not to the Scripture particularly when what Authority the Church hath it hath from the Scripture in general and why doth your Church take away from the people the use of Scripture and why may not we be informed as sufficiently by our Priests as you by yours notwithstanding this Text especially since we go by Scripture you by Tradition or humane definition And if the Priests of yours were Infallible can you say Infallibly that they will not deceive you How miserably then do you provide for the poor people when you would have them require at their mouth not the Law of God but the Doctrine of the Church That which comes on in the same Number about Tradition before Scripture was answered before it was written The Word in the Substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it and when there is now as much need and as great certainty of Tradition as formerly then urge it And I thank you for Saint Irenaeus's Testimony I do not lye at catch but the most convincing dispute is by our Adversaries principles not the Fathers but yours as you apply them for we can make very good use of his words If the Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveyed to us as the Gospel was before it was written and this confirmes for me what was said before but now I assume the Scripture is now left to us therefore is there no need of certain conveyance of Tradition to us Surely you have a minde to help us for your own good Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations you speak of did rely onely upon Tradition they might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition for this is the state of the question Tradition in matters of Faith unwritten is of equal authority to Scripture Secondly If you say Salvation was written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost this may be meant to be done not onely beside Scripture but besides Tradition and thus was it done extraordinarily But why Thirdly Might not the Holy Spirit infuse Faith of the Gospel into those Nations by some of those who were Apostles or sent from them to Preach it and then the Tradition you speak of is the matter of the Gospel which is written and so it doth not appertain to the question of Traditions of proper name which you say are beside that which is written though not against it and then your discourse is fallacious from that which is the object of the Gospel delivered to that which is beside it delivered which ambiguity of the word Tradition if it doth deceive you yet doth it not consequently deceive me but if you mean Tradition here onely of the manner of communicating the matter of Scripture without writing then the former answer may satisfie you that Tradition was then more certain and they were more assured of it by the Spirit of God then we are now And also it might be to them as the Star to the Wise Men for leading them to Christ By the light of the Star they were guided to Christ but when they came to him they saw him not by the light of the Star but by the light of the Day so some might be directed to the Gospel by Tradition before they had the Scripture and then believed it by the light of Scripture You add also neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such Languages as they could all or the greater part understand So you This is readily denyed for God did take care that the New Testament should for the most part of it at least be first written in Greek And the Greek you know in the notion of the New Testament is contradistinguished to the Jew because so many of the world besides the Jews were Greeks and the Greeks Language was the most common then and therefore saith Tully in his Oration for the Poet Archias Graeca per totum orbem leguntur And God by his gracious Providence hath taken care that the Scripture should be translated into divers languages as you may know that so several Nations might have it familiar to them in their own Tongue which must condemn your Church for not permitting of it ordinarily to the people in their own dialect and also doth conclude that Tradition is no Infallible provision for a rule of Faith for how shall the people undoubtedly know that the Traditions were clearly discerned true from them which were false and also that they were faithfully handed through so many Centuries to the present time And yet if so this would not be sufficient for your use unlesse you or others could finde these two points more one how to evade a Circle by proving the Traditions by the Church and the Church by the Traditions and the second this that those Traditions have Infallibly decided the differences betwixt us which the Antients did not professedly handle as having not provocations thereunto If any thing be touched by the by you may know the rule Aliud agentis parva autoritas In your 20. Number you make a recapitulation of what you think you have done and I think you have undone untill you come to Sixthly I have found a lawful Judge who can be informed of all Controversies
will not hear the Church Let him be unto thee as a Heathen and Publican Here you see all Causes of greater Importance are to be brought to this Judge for if even private complaints are to be brought into her Tribunal and if for disobedience after her Judgement given of them a man be to be hold for a Publican or Heathen much more are enormiously hurtful crimes such as are the crimes of Heresie to be carried to her Tribunal and those who in so much more Importing matters disobey are also much more to be held for Publicans and Heathens And that no man may think that after this his condemnation he may stand well in his Interiour persisting still in the same judgement and doing so stand right in the sight of God it followeth Amen I say unto you Prelates of my Church VVhatsoever ye shall bind upon Earth shall also be bound in Heaven You see I have found a Judge so securely to be followed in his Judgement and so unsafely to be disobeyed that his Sentence given upon Earth is sure to be ratified in Heaven This also could not be true if this Judge were fallible in such prime causes as most concern the Church and all such causes are those which may bring in damnable Errors Conformably to this doctrine of the Church her being our Judge Saint Austin de Civit. l. 20.9 expounds to our purpose those words of the Apocalypse or Revelation cap. 20. ver 4. I saw Seats and they sate upon them and Judgement was given them It is not to be expounded of the last Judgement but of the Seats of Prelates and the Prelates themselves by which the Church is now governed are to be understood All this which I have said out of the New Testament you will the lesse wonder at if you Note that even in the Old Law it is said The lips of the Priest shall keep knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord God of Hosts Mal 2. Note here a grosse corruption of the English Bible which readeth these words The Priests lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the Law at his mouth whereas the Originals speak clearly in the future Tense Here by the way I must tell you that though the Scripture were to be Judge yet your most corruptd English Scriptures cannot be allowed for Judge Whence it followeth that those who do understand onely English can judge of nothing by their Scripture And so they must trust their Ministers to the full as much even in this highest point as we do our Priests in any point But let us proceed You see first that I have found a way so direct that fools cannot erre by it for any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the known Doctrine of the Church and then let him rest securely when he knoweth that Secondly you see I have found such a Judge as all true believers had for all their Controversies for more then two thousand years together before Moses did write the first Books of Scripture all which time you must needs make the Tradition of the Church the infallible Rule of Faith for here was no written Word of God upon which their Faith could be built and yet Saint Paul 2 Cor. 4. speaking of those who lived in those Ages before all Scripture saith They had the same Spirit of Faith And the reason is clear for the Word of God is the same whether it be revealed by the Pen or by the Tongue written or not written And what saith St. Irenaus l. 3. c. 4. if the Apostles had not left us the Scriptures Must we not have followed that order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whose Charges they left the Churches to be governed To this order of Tradition by the unwritten word many of those barbarous Nations do assent who have believed in Christ without any writing or Inke having Salvation written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and keeping diligently the ancient Traditions So St. Irenaeus who you see holdeth manifestly unwritten Traditions of the Church to be a sufficient Ground of Faith It is most manifestly true which he saith that upon this ground the Faith of whole Nations have relyed This ground therefore is infallible all Nations Faith relying on this even two Thousand years and more before the first Scriptures were written and the Faith of many other Nations who since their writing have believed and do believe the true Faith For how many of them never did see the Scriptures at all or never did see them in a Language which they could understand Neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such languages as they could all or the greater part understand They thought the Tradition of the Church a sufficient Rule of Faith for all which they could not do if this Rule were fallible We must therefore confesse it to be Infallible Thirdly I have not onely found a Judge so clearly pointing out the way that fools cannot erre by it but such a Judge as no exception can be taken against his sufficiency for no other Judge was in the Church for some Thousands of years amongst the most true Beleevers and afterwards amongst whole Nations Fourthly I have found a Judge to whom Christ hath given a certain Promise to teach no damnable error by which Doctrine the Gates of Hell should prevail against her Fiftly I have found a Judge whom All men are obliged I say obliged by Interiour Assent in point of Faith to obey under pain of being held here for Heathens or Publicans and looked upon as such by the Judgement of Heaven binding what the Church bindeth Sixtly I have found a living Judge who can be informed of all Controversies arising from time to time and who can hear Me and You and be heard by Me and You that neither I nor You can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we doubt we can propose our doubt and she will tell us clearly her meaning whereas the Bible can neither hear a Thousand new Controversies which arise daily nor be heard clearly to give any certain Sentence in them but onely say the same still which she said even before the Controversies began and about which Sentence of hers all the Controversie did arise neither doth the Bible give any such Judgement as will suffice to hold these and these men who teach these and these errors for Heathens and Publicans which the Church doth so clearly and so manifestly that they themselves cannot deny themselves to be condemned by the Church together with their Doctrine but all they can do is to raile against their Judge which the damned shall do against Christ their Judge I see no exception there can be made against this Judge Onely you will tell me that Infallibility is wholly necessary for the Judge of Faith which I
whereas there is but one sense of Scripture principally intended which is expressed sometimes properly sometimes improperly As for the mystical Divinity you know it is not argumentative but where it is declared in Scripture And as for the setting out of things Spiritual in way of Translation from things Temporal you may consider it is necessary if you will believe your Angelical Doctor because since our Knowledge comes here by sense we cannot for this state understand them but by compare to things of sense so that there must upon this account be Metaphors and what are Allegories but Metaphors continued And as for the Tropological sense which respects institution of life that is not difficultly found in more clear precepts Again if by impropriety of speech we should conclude an absolute need of an Infallible Judge then how should we Infallibly be guided by the opinion of the Fathers since so many of them especially Clemens Alexandrinus and Origen who were of the antientest of them are so full of this obscurity And as for your Objection that both Precepts and Councils are delivered in the Mood Imperative you cannot reasonably conceive that we should be so ignorant and credulous as to think that we should swallow down without chewing this your supposition that there are Counsells of Perfection above things of Command for when we have done all we must say that we are unprofitable Servants we have done what we ought to do St. Luke the 17. and 10. Unprofitable not onely to God as your men distinguish but also unprofitable to our selves because we have done but our duty if we did as much as we could which none does and yet if we did as much as we could we should not do so much as we should since the Commands of God are given to us according to the tenour of our ability in Adam which we lost by our own fault Our obedience therefore by it selfe cannot be profitable Another default you will finde or make in Scripture that it doth no where set down a Catalogue of Fundamentals But do you think in earnest that this is a cogent argument for your cause The Scripture doth not set down a Catalogue of Fundamentals therefore it is not to be the Judge of Controversies To your Antecedent we say that the Scripture doth give us every particular point which is necessary to be believed although it doth not give out the Number thereof formall and material how many and which they are Secondly It doth not onely afford that which is simply necessary but doth furnish us with many other particulars so that it is an abundant directory for our use And therefore is there no defect of Wisdome in this Law-maker when he gives us such a Law that Infallibly contains all necessaries and more and when those necessaries are not onely plainly delivered but also what is not plainly delivered is thereby signified not to be necessary Thirdly Again we admit humane dijudications of doubts emergent in some points and they have their use with us without Infallibility Fourthly Either the Scripture yet notwithstanding this is it whereby we must be determined in points of Religion or else the Church but the Church by the same argument is not the Judge because it doth not define whatsoever may be necessary to be held by a full Catholique in your sense Whether the Pope hath Temporal power or not is not this necessary to be determined if it be determined how came your Heart to deny it then whether he hath power Temporal directly as the Canonists or indirectly as others is this determined then how came Bellarmin to go against his Conscience on one side or other for he varied herein as your Widdrington speaks of him And Widdrington he is another against his power in his Apology for the right and Soveraignty of temporal Princes And why is not the question decided whether the Pope be Superiour to a Council in things Ecclesiasticall which the Sorbonists deny Are not there high points which are of weight to move an Infallible Conclusion Not to speak of Gods predetermination or whether the Virgin Mary was Conceived without Original sin How is then the Church the Infallible Judge of Controversies If you say that the Church determines as much as is necessary well then and so hath the Scripture which you acknowledge is Infallible but are not the former points necessary what can you instance in which is more necessary and not determined in Scripture If our Salvation as you hold be in jeopardy for not submitting to the Infallible Judge what can be of more concernment then to know Infallibly who he is and what power he hath which yet your prudent Religion will never make a determination of After this you taxe our Doctrine to be contrary to Scripture and first in the matter of Extream Unction by Saint James We say if you say right that it is clear against us by Scripture then the Scripture hath decided this question then the Scripture can judge and end Controversies And yet at the beginning hereof you speak very warily and discreetly it seems If by this term you would have us believe that it is not evidently declared against us in Scripture then we need say no more as to this case If it be manifest by Scripture against us and you mean your word seems as Aristotle and others use it in way of Elegance or of course then it doth not abate the tenure of the affirmative and then what need we any other Judge so are you held by this Dilemma Secondly That command of Saint James imports no Sacrament as you would have it but doth relate to the gift of Healing in those times Another example of our difference from Scripture you presse the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to be in our sense We answer first You say the words of Institution are clear in this Sacrament in which any wise Man would speak clearly and yet afterwards you say this Controversie the Scripture doth not decide How far are these from a contradiction if clear then either is decided or needs none but it is for your turn that it should be clear and not decided clear against us not decided for you VVell here again you incur the former inconvenience which I will let passe Secondly The words indeed are clear for the nature of a Sacrament which under a visible signe represents a spiritual thing and so therefore for the condition of a Sacrament any wise man could not speak more conveniently then in a figurative sense because it is symbolical to the Sacrament For if the real presence as you mean be corporal then is the property of the Sacrament destroyed because the signe is turned into that which is signified And you are in more capacity to yeild a figurative sense here because elsewhere you do object too much of it and here too little Indeed if Scripture had no other handling but yours it would after it more need an Infallible
and to follow the Primitive If the person be to be esteemed by the Doctrine not the Doctrine by the person as Tertullian's rule is in his Praescrip Then we may leave fellowship of persons for affinity with better Doctrine if by the communion with the persons we must also espouse the errours Fourthly as they have sunke their Patriarcate and have arrogated an universallity of domination and so have divided from all the world that they might reigne over all so we have resumed our antient libertie of the Brittish Church to subsist independently from them Yea this was acknowledged in effect by Vrban when he called for Anselme in the Council at a plunge Includamus hunc in orbe nostro tanquam alterius orbis Papam And therefore as to Communion upon subjections we are not bound and as to fraternall Communion we are ready in mind with any who are or when they shall be found since all the separation which was made by us if any made was in our own defence Fifthly if Spalatensis and Erasmus were able to judge many would have been of our Communion durst they have been like those whom St. Cyprian speaks of who were unconquerable because they did not fear to die And therefore as Justin Martyr said of Plato that he would as plainly have spoken for one God as Socrates but that he was afraid of Socrates's death so that he obscured his passages of Divinity with other passages which did differ so would many besides those in the Trent Council have spoken more freely for the Protestants but for the Inquisition and this hath made them blende good passages for us with some appearances against us So then since we communicate with the first four Generall Councils in Doctrine and with the Primitive times also in Discipline this externall division from you makes the quarrell but as the case stood no guilt and therefore no danger The Catholick Church hath the greatest promises the Roman Church is not the Catholick Church So then we may do well without their Communion if we pray for them Num. 10. In the tenth number he would winde himself off from the inconveniency of his own principle in the fourth page of the Treatise True it is to submit exteriourly to temporall judges they being able and only to judge of the exteriour man but God who searcheth the reins and the heart and who looketh most upon the mind which is the seate of true or false belief doth chiefly exact that those of his Church be of one faith interiourly or else they are not of one faith for faith essentially consisteth in the interiour judgement c. Upon which words I did argue thus We are bound to submit our judgement onely to those who can judge of the inward act But God onely can judge our internall acts therefore we must submit our assents onely to him and therefore to others no further than they speake according to him so that we cannot absolutely adhere to whatsoever is said in Councils which have erred Jewish and Christian too And now he saies I never said any such thing He means namely that Councils cannot judge of the interiour act Nor do I say that he did say so But I took his principle That God onely searcheth the heart and reins and looketh upon the mind and exacteth that those of his Church be of one judgement interiourly for my discourse The Argument is out of its own position And now if there had been need of his confession he hath acknowledged the Assumption that God onely can judge of the internall act for he denies this ability to Councils And therefore it doth appear that he is snarled and that Councils cannot binde the internall act because they cannot judge thereof But now therefore he would evade thus But God in whose name the Church teacheth and commandeth all which she teacheth and commandeth searcheth the heart and the reins What then Because they teach and command in God's name therefore have they God's omniscience If the Divine nature of Christ did not transfuse by communication of Ideoms a reall propertie to the humane nature of the Divine shall they thinke to makes God's Court which immediately obligeth in Conscience to be theirs They make God and the Council all one As they have given to the Pope Christ's Chaire so they will give to the Council God's Tribunall Whatsoever is taught in Gods name hath not always for it sic dicit Dominus God's word pierceth the heart as before but every thing which is taught under God's name is not according to his word as traditions This is just such an Argument as that of the Pontificians to prove that the Saints in Heaven see all things because they see him who sees all things Yes and he that searcheth the hearts giveth them his authority therefore they can binde in the intetiour act Hath he given them this authority Hath he given them this power if they affirme it it is high Blasphemy If they deny it the Argument of my Adversary to excuse himself is a nullitie And my Argument is yet good against them since his is no better than if I should say because they see one who sees nothing they see nothing And therefore this did fully absolve the substance of the fourth page or dissolve it the Council may be assisted and yet not with omniscience nor infallibility Num. 11. And therefore hath he no cause to say to me but you skip to my admiration of your Doctrine Let the judicious Reader judge which have skipped most he that answereth punctually or he that gives a treatise for an answer I urged him pressely and he answered me not so much as coldly not at all This was one skip for all And then he goes on with repetitions of our Doctrine and of his refutations of it before with references to the fourth chap. And then he tels me what shall be done in the next But I should not hear of it untill it be done Laudari non potest nisi peractum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this might have been skipped Then he comes to say somewhat of St. Athanasius As for St. Athanasius did ever he oppose his judgement against the definitions ef a lawfull Generall Councill Nay did it not appeare by the Council of Nice standing for his Doctrine that he might well know the true Church lawfully assembled under the lawfull Pastor confirming their acts would teach as he did Ans First the whole argument is drawn but a singulari and this will not conclude if he did not oppose Secondly if it did conclude it would not be contradictory for we do not maintain opposition Thirdly though he did not oppose the Synod of Nice yet doth it not follow presently that he did not oppose it by reason of an infallibility but because it was not deceived as ruling it self by the word of God Fourthly St. Athanasius had the same opinion against the multitude which the Nicene Council had before
Church not of the Church because the testimony thereof is resolved into Scripture of which the question is yea if the testimony of the Church were infallible it must be infallibly proved by the Scripture and also that it is our rule of faith But thus we see the importunity of the Pontifician for their cause if we should say we resolve our faith of the Scriptures into the testimony of the Church they would never ask us a reason of our faith but when we say we resolve it into the internall testimony of the Spirit for our own private assurance they will not let us sit down with that but will demand a proof thereof although the testimony of the Church if it were the formall reason of our faith must be infallibly made good to us by the internall testimony of the Spirit but that which they would have us rest in for the Church we may not rest in for the Scripture And yet also have we other arguments from Scripture it self which have more moment in them unto the belief of Scripture than the meer testimony of the Church as Dr. White notes in the twenty sixth p. of the way to the true Church which is worthy to be perused also upon this account that there are severall testimonies collected even of Papists for the belief of Scripture without dependence upon the Church as of Canisius Bellarmin Biet Gregorie of Valence Stapleton some whereof we have quoted allready So then by my Adversaries own argument if we need not depend upon the Church for belief of Scripture then not for other points of faith The thirtieth Article hath nothing in it considerable but for us first that he saith it to be that most fundamentall Article that such and such books be infallibly God's word So then if it be the most fundamentall article then it is also fundamentall to the Church otherwise it is not that most fundamentall article but the Church must be the most fundamentall article And if it be fundamental to the Church then we resolve our faith in the highest principle and that which is primo primum and the Papists resolve themselves into that which is at best but secundo primum Our faith then being rooted in Scripture we can give a check to their vaunting of the priviledge of the Church as St. Paul did to the Jew but if thou boastest thou dost not bear the root but the root thee so the Church doth not bear the Scripture but the Scripture it And secondly we note in his thirtieth number what he saith Take the Church without any infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost and their authority is but humane We assume this infallible assistance is not yet proved and till it be proved the authority is but humane and yet doe we not scoff at the authority of the Church as he chargeth us but do make good use of it without infallibility And thirdly we might note that if some other had the answering of these papers he might tell them that they are mendicants of the question for first here they say that they ground this point upon the authority of the Church as being infallible And then again she hath an infallible authority which we account a fansie and yet again this infallibility alone must be that which groundeth not this perswasion but this infallible assent And yet again take the Church without any infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost and their authority is but humane These things so nearly belonging and essentially to the question are to be proved not supposed yet all must be supposed by them that so they might not seem to run at the ring and hit it as we may speak only the last hath a truth in it but also it supposeth in the drift a supposition for their use But at the last we have an appearance of an argument We have no other infallible ground left us but the authority of the Church assisted by the Holy Ghost since the Scripture hath no where revealed which books be Scripture which not Ans To this we say three things first that the argument is no way cogent because there is no necessity of either if we can be assured by the Holy Ghost that these books be Canonicall And if we cannot how did the Church at first assure it self that they were Canonicall So then Omne reducitur ad principium as Aquinas's rule is Secondly unlesse they prove the authority of the Church better they had better have left this out for otherwise there is no ground of faith unlesse our ground be admitted if this be a true Dis-junctive proposition that either the Scripture must set down which books be Canonicall which not or else the Church in the proposall must be infallible And yet if the Scripture should have set down which books were Canonicall it must be resolved whether that book wherein they were set down was Canonicall by the Holy Ghost also Then thirdly if the disjunctive be not true then his discourse is false if it be true in the proposition then we assume against them that the Scripture hath no where revealed whether the Church is infallible and therefore there is no other way to know it to be infallible but by it selfe So then it must prove the testimony of the H. G. by it self and if it can then may we prove the testimony of the Holy Ghost concerning Scripture by it selfe if not where will they set up In the 31. Num. he would squat Num. 31. and deceive the chase by a distinction which will not stay him from running round in the proving of Scripture by the Church and the Church by Scripture He sayes No Sir you never heard me give this reason unlesse it were when I spake to one who independently of the Church do professe himself to believe the Scripture to be God's word as you do And this is the effect of this Number for his defence and of those Divines who do not deale thus in proving the Church by the Scripture with all those who have not admitted the Scripture as infallible for they first prove the authority of the Church and that independently of the Scripture to be infallible Answ This covering is too short and indeed not sound for I am not bound to take notice how they prove it to others but how they prove it to me If they prove it thus to me then by their owne confession they are included in a circle And they prove it thus to me because I hold the Scripture to be God's word independently of the Church and so he saith of me as you do Secondly whereas he sayes If I be a Scholar I may know that their Divines do not answer so when they are put upon the question Why do you believe the Church I do answer that for my part I never pretended to be a Scholar as they do signanter I have neither head nor heart nor body nor books for the Controversies but yet this I