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A17192 A moste sure and strong defence of the baptisme of children, against [the] pestiferous secte of the Anabaptystes. set furthe by that famouse clerke, Henry Bullynger: & nowe translated out of Laten into Englysh by Ihon Veron Senonoys Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4069; ESTC S109521 39,895 92

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thys maner Can ye drinke the cuppe that I shal drinke and be baptized with the baptisme that I shall be baptyzed wyth there the blynde may se that he did meane his passion that he should suffer It betokeneth also the inward illumynatyon of the holy spirite of God wherby the heartes of the faythfull are illumynated drawen as Actes .i. Chapter Ye shal be baptyzed wyth the holy ghost after these few dayes Nowe as they are deceyued in thys thyng by ignoraunce and lacke of knowledge so are they in all the other poyntes But now that the ignoraunt symple myght haue an wholsom Antidotus and conterpoyson agaynst this pestilent erroure especially in thys point of rebaptyzatyon and baptysme of chyldren I haue here translated thre most fruyctfull Dialogues vpon thys matter out of Laten into Englysshe whyche yf they be dylygentlye perused maye enarme and fence the reader agaynste all the obiectyons that can be made and inuented by these phantastycall and madde braynes And because that your worshypfull mastershyp hath bene alwayes earnest in the defence of the truth bearyng a singuler affectyon and mynd towardes all them that are studyous to set furth the glorye of god which godly affection and mynd ye haue many times as I haue bene by credible persons enfourmed declared in your communycatyon towardes me I could do no lesse of duty but to dedicate thys lytle laboure of myne vnto you in token of gratitude and thankefulnesse syth that none otherwyse I am able to deserue or recompence that beneuolente hearte of yours towardes mee God of his mercy vouchsafe with his holy spirit so to rule and guyde your mastership with the worshipfull gentlewoman youre wyfe that whatsoeuer yee shal do or thinke in al your affayres maye be to the glory of god saluatiō of of your soule Amē ¶ Thre moste frutefull Dialogues treatynge vpon the baptisme of chyldren very necessary to be red of all Chrystyans in these moste paryllouse tymes ¶ Symon the Anabaptist Ioiada the true Christyan ¶ That rebaptizatyon or baptyzyng agayne is not of god and that there is but one baptysme Symon I Haue taryed here for the more than an hole houre Ioiada I was almost perswaded I dyd almoste beleue that thou durst not come because that thou haddeste lyttle truste and confydence in the other articles Ioiada There is no artycle that I am soo sure of it is so farre that I should be afrayde to speake of it Simon But I wil proue that rebaptyzation is of God Ioiada By what scriptures Actes xix chapi Symon By the .xix chapter of the Actes where it is expressely set furthe that the .xii. men that had bene baptyzed by Ihon or in the baptisme of Ihon were baptyzed agayne by Paule in the name of Christe If it was lawfull after the baptisme of Ihon to receyue the baptysme of Christe why shoulde it not be more lawfull that the baptysme of the Bisshop of Rome should giue place vnto the baptisme of Christ For as those men of Ephesus had bene ignorauntlye and vnwyttingly baptized with the baptysme of Ihon and agayne were baptyzed by Paul In like maner we were ignorauntly baptized with the baptisme of the Busshop of Rome Ergo we maye lawfully be baptyzed agayne wyth the baptisme of Christe Ioiada As manye wordes as thou hast spoken so many errours hast thou vomyted and spued out Fyrste thou sayest that those men of Ephesus wer twise baptized which thing thou canst not proue Ac. xix cha Baptisme is not takē for water but for the doctryne for the baptisme of Ihon ought not here to be takē for water but for the doctryne Symon Thys is the onely refuge that ye flee to when ye be ouercomen by the truthe But ye can not proue nor strengthen these your sayinges with the scripturs nor by any truth Ioiada But I wil proue vnto the that baptisme is not alwaies takē for the wasshing that is done in the water Ihon. i. iii. chapter Mat. xxi chapter but rather for the doctryne Ihō .i. .iii. chap. And of thys thing there be most sure tokens signes notes as Mat. xxi chap. where Christ asketh the pharises whether the baptisme of Ihon was of god or of men Baptisme is takē for the doctrine for as the water doth wash away the filthines of the body so the trew doctrine doth clense the soul frō all errours superstytyon Act. xii cha Appollo sithens that it was of god why dyd they not credite beleue him vnderstanding by baptism as it most manyfestly appeareth the doctryne or testimony which they ought to haue beleued Simon Well go to put the case that in this place it is taken for the doctrine yet notwithstandinge it foloweth not that in the Actes of the apostles it shuld be takē for doctrine Ioiada In the mean season ye were to much ouersene in this thing ouer blinded saying most shamefully that we did affirme wtout any truthe the baptisme is often times taken for the doctrine But go to we wil also proue the baptisme is taken in the Acts for the doctryne In the .xii. of Actes Luke saith that a certain Iue called Apollo being an eloquēt mā taught in the way of the lorde did come to Ephesus and that he did teache dilygently those thinges that were the lordes knowing onely the baptisme of Ihon. Here the very blind may se the Luke did speake not of the water but of the doctryne The same Apollos did teache and instruct those xii men in the way of the lord whō afterwardes Paul doth aske whether after that they had beleued giuen credit vnto the doctrine What is to receyue the holy gost they had bene pacified in theyr hertes consciences by the holy ghost Here it is to be noted that faithe is not taken for that heauenlye gyft Faythe is here taken for the doctryne of fayth that illumynateth the hearte inwardlye but for the doctryne of faythe whyche one man dothe receyue of an other by hearynge But they dyd soo aunswere that Paule myght easely gather by theyr aunswere that they knew not what the peace of cōsciences nor what the holye ghost was He marueylyng therefore In quid initiati fuissēt This word to initiate whych we are compelled to vse in thys place signifieth to instructe or gyue instructyō in ani kind of relygyon science or knowlege what maner of doctryne thys was that had not set furth vnto them so necessary and principall poyntes dyd aske them wheruntoo they were baptyzed not wherin For he knewe ryght well that men are baptized in water But he asketh whervnto they were baptyzed that is too saye initiated and taughte what at lengthe was the marke that they dyd shoote at fithens that they knewe not yet the holy gost They made hym answere that they were baptized that is to saye initiated in the doctryne of Ihon. The Apostle dyd vnderstande and perceyue that they
churche not for theyr carnall generation birth but for the promise of god whyche he hath promysed that he wil be the god of the children SIM What if the parentes of the childe Whether the children of them the feygne thē selues to beleue ought to be baptized Act. viii Chapter shuld feigne their fayth and not beleue truely should not these children be borne of vnchristian parentes and therfore ought not to be baptyzed IOIA. I aske the Symon dyd Symon Magus of Samaria beleue or not SIMON He dyd not beleue but he did feygne hym selfe to beleue IOI What yf thy sayinges be repugnaunte vnto the scriptures SIMO I do not thinke it IOIA. I will shewe the therfore Act. viii chap. it is writtē after this maner When they of Samaria had gyuen credyte vnto Philippe which preached vnto them of the kingdome of god of the name of Iesu Christ they were baptized both men women Then dyd Simon Magus beleue also and being baptized dyd ioyne hymselfe too Philippe SIMON He did beleue that is to say he did confesse the faith with his mouth and sayd that he did beleue IOIADA This that I say this word fidele or faithful is of a larger sygnificatyon and can not be so narowly taken which thinge thou thy selfe dost graunte with me being cōstrayned therto by the aucthoritie of the scriptures But I aske the why did Philyp baptise hym sith that he dyd not beleue truely Diddest thou not say before that baptysme oughte too be mynistred vnto no man except he doth beleue truely and that baptism is a signe of the faith that goeth afore SIM Because that he saide wyth the other that he did beleue in Christe Philyp dothe not se the hearte but being contente wyth the confessyon of the mouth doth pronounce and baptyse God only seeth the hearte IOIA. So thou shuldest haue spoken and confessed that god onelye seeth the heart and that we oughte to be contente with the outward confessyon vpon this confession to baptise Sith then that the father of the infant doth confesse the fayth with his mouthe and saith that he beleueth in Christ Iesus moreouer doth beleue and confesse that god is his god the god of his sede and that he doth therefore brynge hys chylde vnto baptisme it is conuenient mete that we beleue his wordes thoughe some time we doubt of the words of the father yet know we that the chylde shall not beare the iniquitye of the father and that the carnall generation doth make nothynge to this but that they are and shal be called the children of god which partayne too the free election and gratuite promyse of god Do not all men knowe Ezechias that Ezechias being a faithful king was borne of a wicked parent But yet this thing did harm or hinder him nothing at all Esau euen as Esau got no profit therby that he was borne of a godly parent ergo the election of god doth remain fre SIM What if the child that is brought to baptism were not of the elect were it not better that a man shuld thē at length be baptized whē we shuld se perceiue that he is of the elect For they whiche are not elected are not of god they that are not of god ought not to be baptyzed IOIA. When shuldest thou thē baptyse him that came at the euening in too the vineyarde when shouldest thou baptise the thief on the crosse By this mean no man should be baptized and baptism shoulde be abolyshed for the electyon of god is not alwaies knowē vnto vs yea we shulde by that meane take that vpon vs which belongeth to god only God only knoweth who be elected and who be not for god onely doth searche the heart knoweth only which be elected which be not I do let passe that we coulde not thus auoyd the hipocrites For Simon Magus did feigne his faith wherby ye anabaptistes do iudge measure the election and yet he was not elected Ismael and Esau were not elected they were cyrcumcised Other that are alredy of age may do the same But tell me were Ismael and Esau elected or not SIM They were not elected IO. When they were yet babes and infantes were they numbred emong the people of god or not SI I can not tell IO. But it behoued that to know it syth that thou takesse suche matters in hand That they wer of the people of god I proue it by the circumcision They were circumcised by the commaundement of god circumcision was the signe of the people of god ergo in their infancie they were the children of god and also they weare of the people of god yea though they were not elected It is plain and manifeste by the lyfe that folowed the they were not elected and chosen SIM I could wel graunt that they were of the people of god but I can not recken them emonge the faythefull IOIA. Are not they that be of the people of god faithful SIM They that be of age are faithfull infantes and yonge babes can not be so for they can not professe theyr faith IO Ye synge alwayes one songe haste thou not heard a great while agone that chyldren though they can not confesse theyr fayth are rekened emonge the faythfull Or is god onely the god of them that are of age and not also of the chyldren Or dyd Christ suffer onely for them that are of age and not also for the Chyldren SIMON He dyd suffer for the satysfactyon of all the synnes of the whole world IOIADA Haue the Chyldren anye synne SIMON They haue the origynall synne Chyldren are restored by Chryste and not only they that be of age IOIADA Syth then that Paule sayeth that whatsoeuer was fallen by Adam the same was restored by Christe and not onely they that be of age but also Chyldren be loste in Adam It foloweth that children are restored agayne by Christ Yf they be restored by Chryst they are of God ought to be sealed with the seale of the people of god Baptisme is the seale of the people of god Ergo chyldren ought too be baptyzed SIMON Proue that baptisme is the signe or seale of the people of god IOI I proue that by your owne confessyon For ye say that baptisme is the sygne of the faythfull Actes x. Chapter What is to receue the holy ghoste I proue besydes by the wordes of Peter whyche Actes x. Chapter speaketh after thys maner Whoo can forbyd them to be baptyzed that haue receyued the holy gost as well as we SIMON But children haue not receiued the holye ghoste IOIA. In this place to receyue the holy gost is too receyue a wytnes that we are of god whych receiueth vs and that we are clensed and purged by god Act. x. xi xv Chap. This may be proued by the x. xi and .xv. Chapter of Actes Chyldren are clensed purged by God ergo
thou canst do it The chyef Argumentes of the Anabaptistes agaynste the Baptisme of infantes SIMON In the last of Marke Christe sayth to hys apostles go throughout all the wholl worlde and preach the gospell to euery creature He that beleueth and is baptyzed shall be saued He that beleueth not shall be condempned Also in the laste of Mathewe it is wrytten after this maner Al power is giuen vnto me in heauen and in earth goyng therfore teache ye al nations baptizing in the name of the father of the son and of the holy ghost By these it semeth to folow and that necessarely that baptisme ought onely to be ministred vntoo them that can be taught and instructed For he sayth first teache them and then afterwardes baptyse them whereby it foloweth also that baptisme is a signe of the faith that wente before For he saithe he that beleueth and is baptyzed shall be saued Let vs nowe adde and ioyne vntoo these and ponder dilygently both the examples and factes of Ihon and of the apostles and that whych I say shal be manifeste and playne For Ihon dyd baptise them onelye that dyd confesse theyr sinnes Actes .ii. Chapter Actes .ii. Chap. Luke doth wryte after this maner And they which receyued gladlye the worde were baptyzed Philip doth then at lengthe baptyse the stewarde of Quene Candace after that he had declared vnto him ye. liii Chap. of Esay had questioned wyth him of his faith Actes viii Chapter Actes viii chapter All the apostles after that they had preached the Gospell and that the faith was receyued did baptise the faithefull It foloweth then that baptysme as a signe is due vnto thē that can both heare and receyue the doctryne Infantes because that they want the vse of reason can neyther heare nor receyue the doctryn therfore they haue no faythe For Paule teacheth that faith commeth by hearynge and hearyng by the word of god Rom. x. Chap Roma .x. Sith then that Children can neyther heare nor vnderstande the worde of god they can not beleue Ergo baptisme is not due vntoo them which is a signe of the faythe that goeth before Yf thou canste A solution to the argumentes of the Anabaptistes answere me to these I wil tell and set forth myne other argumentes hereafter IOI Thou hast rehersed the chief and principal foundatyons of the Anabaptystes that haue anye showe or appearaunce but thys is noo newe thynge vnto vs whych haue learned and red in hystories that aboue three hundreth xlviii yeares agone that is to saye in the yeare of Christe M.C. lxxxii there haue bene heretykes The sum of the Anabaptistes argumēts that haue taught the same doctrine But because that ye do leane vpon a weake brickel foundatiō your fote shal easely be subuerted ouerthrowen in al your doctrin ye do most vrgently beat this into mens hedes the baptisme is a signe of the faithfull or of them that haue faith alredy Infantes or yonge babes haue no fayth Ergo baptisme ought not to be ministred vnto infantes In very dede if the wordes be wel and truly expounded and vnderstanded we do gladly graunt this thinge vnto you That baptysme is a sygne of the faithfull people But we do not deffyne cyrcumscribe This word fidelis faithfull or fidel ought not to be limited as the Anabaptists wil haue it or limite the faythful as ye do for yf no man shoulde be baptised but they that beleue truly and from a sincere hearte Iudas Simon of Samaria Demas and other hipocrites had neuer ben baptized Let no man thus take my sayinges although I would haue baptysme to be ministred vnto theym whome it is manyfeste and playne to be infydels but myne intente is to shewe that by thys word fidelis faythfull some what more is to be vnderstanded then the Anabaptistes do expresse SIMO What canst thou make of a faythfull but a faythfull I can not vnderstand how infantes and yong babes can be faithful sith that they do wante the vse of reason IO. But in thys busynesse we do soo speake of the faythfull that we do in noo wise exclude the children from the number of thē syth that the children and infantes are of god whome god doth alwaies admitte and receyue into his churche emonge the faythfull SIM It behoueth the to haue proued the same Who be the fideles faythfull Gene. xvii Chapter O comfortable sayinge both to vs and too oure children as I haue alredy proued the contrary IOI I wil proue it Genesis xvii chapi Where god doth make a couenaunt with Abraham the lorde doth peculyarly comprehend the chyldren in the couenaunt for he sayth I shall be thy god and the god of thy sede after the. And afterwards he commaundeth the infantes to be cyrcumcised vpon the eyght daye to receyue the signe of the Testament Wherby it foloweth that god is not only the god of thē that be of age and canne beleue in God but also of the infante Children are fideles or faithful and be in the churche the members of Christe which for lacke of age can not yet beleue for they through grace and the promyse are receyued in to the couenaunt and number of the faythfull SIM I care not for the olde Testamente of the Iewes these olde thynges are abolished by the gospel IO. By Iesu Christ the ceremonies are abolished and the figures fulfylled What parte of the olde testament is abolyshed by Christ but the couenaunte made with Abraham standeth styll Elles god were not our god and the God of our sede and shuld be made by Christ more vnmerciful and more straunge thē he was to the aunciaunte fathers before Christ Which to thynke were a foolysh thyng that I should not say an vngodly specially syth that in the newe Testamente The faythfull are the chyldren of Abrahā Roma iiii Gala. iiii Mat. viii Luke .xiii. and .xix. Chapter Ihon .i. Chapter alsoo the faythfull are called the chyldren of Abraham Rom. iiii Gal. iiii Mat. viii Luk. xiii .xix. Chap. Besides these Christ which expresse words doth say Suffer yonge children to come vnto me for to suche doth belong the kingdō of heauē Paul speaking of the children of the christians saithe Youre chyldren are cleane How should that be onlesse it were thorow grace mercy the promise of god It foloweth then that the children of the christians are of god ought to be numbred emong the children of god SIM These thinges do altogether repugne vnto the scriptures and gospell as thoughe the carnall birth should auaile some thyng before god wheras Ihon saith Whych were not borne of bloud nor of the will of the flesh or of man but were born of god Ye say that the chyld doth belong to the church because that his parentes are of the churche IOIA. We doo saye thys through the grace mercy of god wherof is the promise The children are of the