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A14408 Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies.; Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English. Golburne, John.; Vigor, Simon, d. 1575.; Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591.; Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau.; L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597. 1602 (1602) STC 24727; ESTC S119134 189,279 272

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conioyned they be sometimes by some occasion seperated and remoued the one from the other as touching their bodies yet for all that do they not leaue to be one flesh and one body by meanes of the societie and matrimoniall familiaritie which is betweene them In like case albeit that Iesus Christ with whom wee are conioyned and vnited by the faith and trust which wee haue in him and his promises bee as touching his bodie resident in heauen wee yet abiding vppon the earth and that by meanes thereof there is great distance and space betweene him and vs as touching his bodie that neuerthelesse hindereth vs not to bee flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones that hee is not our head and wee his members that hee is not our husband and wee his spowse that wee bee not of one selfe same body that wee bee not engrafted into him that wee be not cloathed with him that wee abide not in him as the boughes and buddes in the Vine And there is neither distance of times nor places whatsoeuer it be there is no difference of times which can hinder such a coniunction and that the faithfull eate truly his flesh and his bloud For as the auncient Fathers albeit they were two or three thousand yeares before Iesus Christ dyed yet left they not to communicate in his flesh crucified and to eate the same spirituall meate which we eate and to drinke the same spirituall drinke which wee drinke The faithfull also which are come twelue or fifteene hundred yeares after leaue not what place soeuer they be in to participate as did the Fathers in the same meate and in the same drinke which they haue done And no other difference there is betweene the eating of the Fathers which were before the comming of Iesus Christ and of them that haue followed him but the reason of more or lesse that is to say that there is in the one more ample and expresse declaration of the good will of God towards vs then in the other Whence must be concluded that from the beginning of the world vnto the end there neuer was nor shall be other coniunction betweene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Church then spirituall that is to fay wrought by the spirit of God For euen as there is but one faith in the Fathers and in vs which respecteth alwayes on the one part and the other our Lord Iesus Christ so are we not also otherwise conioyned with him then they haue bene As then it is so that the Fathers haue had no other societie nor communion then spirituall It followeth thereof that we also are not nor can be otherwise then spiritually cōioyned with him Neuerthelesse it is not said that wee and the Fathers are not flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones and that all together doo not partake as well in his humanitie as in his diuinitie But that which wee say is that all this participation which wee haue in him is by the operation vertue of the holy Ghost which thing Christ Iesus in S. Iohn speaking of the meane of this coniunction teacheth clearly when he saith The things which I speake vnto you are spirit and life And S. Paul also when hee saith Our fathers did eate the same spirituall meate and dranke the same spirituall drinke Now when wee speake of this spirituall eating common to vs and to the Fathers it must not therfore be thought that we reiect the holy Supper of the Lord or any way thinke that the same vse of bread and wine is superfluous no more then the vse of the water in Baptisme For our Lord knowing the blockishnesse of our vnderstandings and the infirmitie and weakenesse of our hearts and through the pittie he hath of vs willing to helpe and remedie the same hath not contented to haue left vs the ministerie of his word to assure vs of the participation which we haue in his flesh in his bloud and in all the good things thereon depending but hath also willed to adde therevnto the signes of bread and wine which he hath as seales to his word to seale in our hearts by the vse of the same the faith we haue of the foresaid coniunction by his word So that it sufficed him not to haue contracted a couenant with Abraham by the word and promise which he made vnto him but added moreouer therevnto the signe of Circumcision as a seale for more ample confirmation and assurance of the said couenant To the end then that each one may vnderstand what is the Supper of the Lord and what the Ministers do thereof beleeue and teach it is meete to consider and acknowledge in the same three things First the ordinance of the Lord contained in his word and declared by his Ministerie according to his commaundement by which this holy cerimony hath bene ordained and established in the Church for the edification and entertaining of the members thereof which thing must bee diligently obserued to haue it in that honour and reuerence as appertaineth and not to place it in the ranke of other cerimonies which haue no foundation nor reason to authorise them but the onely will and tradition of men Neuerthelesse heed must be taken that by the institution and ordinance whereof we make mention we vnderstand not a certaine pronuntiation of words or any vertue which is hidden in the same as do the Priests of the Romane Church who by ignorance and superstitious opinion which they haue thinke to haue consecrated and transubstantiated the bread and wine in the Masse by the vertue of fiue words Hoc est enim Corpus meum For this is my body breathed and pronounced ouer the Elements Wherein they are greatly deceiued and abused for as much as the word which is the formall cause of the Sacrament is not a word simply said and vttered but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God made by the Minister according to his commaundement and a preaching of the death of Iesus Christ and of the fruite thereof by which the hearts of the hearers are lifted vp vnto the contemplation and meditation of his benefite and their faith stirred vp and inflamed in his loue and where the same shall not thus be done it must not be thought that the Elements be Sacraments As S. Augustine in the 80. Tract vpon Saint Iohn in these termes teacheth Whence commeth this vertue to the water that in touching the body it washeth the heart sauing that it is done by the word not because it is pronounced but because it is beleeued This word is the word of the faith which wee preach This saith the Apostle to wit If we confesse with our mouth that Iesus is the Lord and beleeue in our heart that God raised him from the dead wee shall be saued And continuing his speech hee addeth in the end these proper words to wit This word of faith which wee preach is that doubtlesse by which baptisme is consecrated
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophec●e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy E●umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey ex●resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perni●ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessiō of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
the persons calling the Popes Bishops Priests Antichrists Ministers of Sathan against which reproaches the Doctors content themselues to shewe by the word of God when occasion serueth that such tytles agree neither with the persons nor yet the doctrine by them preached Now although that the Ministers and their furie deserue a sharpe reply yet to mittigate their so inflamed hearts the Doctors will not answere to the iniuries which touch their persons and estates referring the whole to the iudgement of the vnpassionate readers and will only touch the points which concerne the doctrine First the Ministers do great wrong to the Doctors and their like in comparing them to Donatists and falsly to impute vnto them that they tie the Church in a certaine place as did the Donatists which placed it onely in Affrike For it is manifest to all that the Doctors know not nor confesse any other Church then the Catholique which as it name importeth hath bene visible since the Apostles time and hath her spreading through the world in what region country or place soeuer the faithfull beleeuing in Iesus Christ are Although they reuerence the Church of Rome as chiefe and principall among others as Ireneus Tertullian S. Ciprian S. Augustine and other the auncient Fathers haue giuen it this honour to confesse it to be principall and mother as it were of other Churches with more iust reason may such obiection be retorted against the Ministers who cannot say their Church to be Catholike hauing taken it beginning in our time seene known at Geneua founded vpō the priuate opinion of one man without that in former time one could shewe such opinion to haue beene holden in any Nation whatsoeuer Which thing shall be handled in it order when they shall examine the errors by the Ministers maintained against this Article I beleeue the holy Catholique Church Moreouer the Ministers should not haue alledged the violence crueltie and furie of the Donatists against the Catholiques for such example doth condemne them and their like But because it doth not but bring fresh to memorie the passed euils which Fraunce hath endured by the instigation of the Ministers for feare to incyte them further to say new iniuries the Doctors will not dwell long vpon this matter Neuerthelesse they shewe vnto the Ministers that the Donatists reproached the Catholiques that they endured persecution by them and that to roote them out they sollicited the Emperours and Magistrates euen as the Ministers doo blame the Doctors Who confesse first to desire the conuersion of all Sects and in case they will not come to repentance that the Magistrates by good and holy lawes may execute such punishment therefore as God bee not so outragiously blasphemed and the people grieued And therein they follow the doctrine of Saint Augustine expressed in an Epistle sent Advincentin contra Donatistas Where he confesseth that the Catholiques did persecute the Donatists and that contrariwise the Donatists also afflicted the Catholiques but that the persecutions were different That those of the Catholiques were not executed but by the Magistrate and came of charitie to roote out the euill which hindred the peace and tranquilitie publike And contrariwise the persecution by the Donatists was made without authoritie of the Magistrate and proceeded of malice which pretended but mischiefe and ruine and S. Augustine declareth that the first was good and of God and the second wicked and by inspiration of Sathan And to this purpose he bringeth many excellent examples of holy scripture This hath bene somewhat largely handled to purge the Doctors of the slaunder imposed on them by the Ministers where they reproach them that in their preachings writings and conferences they search but onely to roote out the Ministers whom they haue alwayes persecuted And they interpret the same as therefore proceeding from a particular hate of the Doctors against them and not of charitie and zeale of truth and of the conuersion as well of the Ministers as of those which are seduced and abused by them The Doctors therein call God to witnesse and doo protest the contrarie and pray the Ministers to beleeue them attending therevpon the iudgement of God who is the onely searcher of the hearts and affections of men As touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie because he can do whatsoeuer he will had they listed to read the writings of Saint Thomas whose doctrine they disdaine well had they knowne that this reason is no reason Because the Angels and they which are blessed conforming themselues alwayes to the will of God can doo all things that they will doo and there is no creature which can hinder the effect of theyr will and yet are they not almightie And as touching the saying of S. Augustine in taking it so as the Ministers do take it The reason of Gods omnipotencie is ouer-weake and false But to haue the true vnderstanding of this sentence it behoueth to consider that there is a difference betweene the actuall will of God and the power of will For God can wil many things which he willeth not nor euer will And euen so can he will more then he actually willeth whereby they ought rather to measure his omnipotencie then to measure it according to his actuall will And thus must be interpreted the text of S. Augustine that the almightinesse extendeth to all things which he can will and not according to that he actually willeth And S. Augustine is cyted by the Ministers being destitute of testimonie of scripture albeit they vaunted in their former answere to haue learned this reason by the scriptures In the article following the Ministers by slaunder doo falsly taxe the Doctors to haue cut off some words of theyr last writing which will not be found to bee true For the text of the Doctors beareth these words It is not to bee doubted but that aboue all conceit and imagination of humane spirit the power of God is great infinite and incomprehensible Where it clearly appeareth that the Doctors speake generally of all conceit and imagination without any exception thereof be it of wisedome or folly Therfore was it not needfull to expresse the words of the Ministers seeing that the Doctors spake generally And that which goeth before doth shewe the same as the Ministers haue cyted it where it is said that the Doctors reproued the said Ministers because they gaue some restraint and limitation of the omnipotencie of God For as much as they would not stretch it generally to all the things which men can conceiue and in their mindes imagine Where the words generally and all things do sufficiently declare that the Doctors haue willed to comprehend end the foolish phantasies and imaginations themselues which men may apprehend according to humane iudgement and haue willed to cut off nothing from the writing of the Ministers who peraduenture haue thought the Doctors would not say that God can doo all that which a foolish braine can