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A80765 The disputes between Mr. Cranford, and Dr. Chamberlen. At the house of Mr. William Webb, at the end of Bartholomew Lane, by the Old Exchange: on March 1. 1652, and April 1. 6. 13. / Published for the satisfaction of all that love the truth. Cranford, James, d. 1657.; Chamberlen, Peter, 1601-1683. 1652 (1652) Wing C6822; Thomason E666_6; ESTC R206920 19,015 40

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a lawfull assembly vers 39. or unlawfull vers 32 41. But by way of excellency because no Assembly so worthy as that which is called together to the worship of God Therefore it is ordinarily taken for such wherein we must also distinguish between the Church of Christ and a Church of Christ The Church comprehends all the faithfull Saints from the beginning of the World to the end As Ephes 1.22 and 3.21 and 5.23 c. Col. 1.18.24 and 1 Cor. 12.28 Heb. 12.23 A Church of Christ also is taken for any Church of Christ respectively as Mat. 18.17 and 1 Cor. 14. and 4.17 c. 1 Cor. 7.17 and 11.16.15.9 Philip. 3.6 And it hath also severall other Appellations as House City Body Spouse and Family or definitively either And that an uncertain providentiall Assembly or meeting as Mat. 18.20 Wheresoever two or three are gathered together in the name of Christ. In which sense Mr. Cranf distinguisheth it Ecclesia Fidelium Or more setled and constant which likewise are distinguisted by Times Nations or Places Distinguished by Times we read Act. 7.38 the Church in the Wildernesse And by Nations Rom. 16.4 all the Churches of the Gentiles By Places as Countries α Kingdomes β Provinces γ By Countrys α 1 Cor. 16.19 Church of Asia And by Kingdomes β 2 Cor. 8.1 of Macedonia And by Provinces γ as Galatia 1 Cor. 16.1 Gal. 1.2 and Judea Gal. 1.22 Citys of Corinth 1 Cor. 12. and 2 Cor. 1.1 Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus Thyatyra Sardis Philadelphia Laodicea Revel 1.11 And Houses as Aquila and Prisscilla 1 Cor. 16.19 Rom. 16.3 5. and Nymphas Col. 4.15 The Church of Christ is then and so long the Church of Christ as she saith and doth what Christ gave her to say and doe even as Christ himself John 7.17 and 8.26 28. and 12.5 and 14.10 24. and 5.19.30 And when she saith or doth otherwise she speaketh or playeth the Harlot in that particular By Organical was meant a definite setled Church of Christ compleated with Officers as a body with members 1 Cor. 12.12 Here Dr. Chamb. being called upon to prove that Presbyters did forbid Ministers of a true Church He proved it by this Syllogisme Ma. They that forbid Ministers Ordained by the Presbytery of Baptised Churches forbid Ministers of a true Church Mi. But Ministers of London Presbyterian Ministers forbid Ministers Ordained by the Presbytery of Baptised Churches Con. Therefore Ministers of London Prebyterian Ministers forbid Ministers of a true Church Mr. Cranf denyed the Major because no true Presbytery and because no true Church but desired that the last should be proved To which Dr. Chamb. argued Ma. They that have the true Marks of a true Church are a true Church Mi. But Baptised Churches have the true Marks of a true Church Con. Therefore they are a true Church Mr. Cranf denyed the Minor which was thus proved Ma. They that have true Preaching of the Word and true Administration of the Sacraments have the true Marks of a true Church Mi. But Baptised Churches have true Preaching of the Word and true Administration of Sacraments Con. Therefore they have the true Marks of a true Church Mr. Cranf denyed the Minor That they neither had true Preaching of the Word nor true Administration of the Sacramets Dr. Chamb. asked which he should prove Mr. Cranf bad him prove the true Administration of Sacraments Ma. They that have the true Administration of Baptisme and the Lords Supper have the true Administration of Sacraments Mi. But Baptized Churches have the true Administration of Baptisme and the Lords Supper Con. Therefore Baptized Churches have the true Administration of the Sacraments Mr. Cranf denyed the Mi. but bad him prove Baptisme Ma. They that have the Administration of Baptisme in the true manner and on the true Subject have the true Administration of Baptisme Mi. But Baptized Churches have the Administration of Baptisme in the true manner and on the true Subjects Con. Therefore Baptized Churches have the true Administration of Baptisme Mr. Cranf denyed the Mi. Dr. Chamb. asked whether he should prove first the manner or the subject Mr. Cranf said any which he would Then said Dr. Chamb. First I le prove the manner and then the Subject Ma. They that Administer Baptisme in the same Manner as it was Administred unto Christ Matth. 13.16 And as Philip Administred it to the Eunuch Act. 8.38 have the true manner of Administration of Baptisme Mr. Cranf cryed out and some with him prove the subject for that is desired by some here Then Dr. Chamb. proceeded Ma. They that Administer Baptisme on Beleevers and Repenters Administer Baptisme on the true Subjects Mi. But Baptized Churches Administer Baptisme on Repenters and Believers Con. Therefore Baptized Churches Administer it on the true Subject The Mi. was denyed and thus proved Ma. They that Administer Baptisme upon those that confesse their Sins and professe their Faith Administer Baptisme on the true Subject Mi. But Baptized Churches Administer it upon those that confesse their Sins and professe their Faith Con. Therefore Baptized Churches Administer Baptisme on the true Subject Mr. Cranf denyed the Minor and said they do not Baptize such as do confesse their Sins and professe their Faith Dr. Cham. said that might be attested by any that ever were present at their Baptisme Besides it were against their very Principles if they should not do so Saith Mr. Cranf I say they do not Baptize Believers and Repenters Saith Dr. Chamb. now you go back to the former Syllogisme Mr. Cranf said they do not Baptize Believers and Repenters but Renegadoes Dr. Chamb. said I gave no ill language but used the words of the Scripture and I hope you will not be angry with the language of the holy Ghost when I must use it in argument Renegado is language of Scripture saith Mr. Cranf Where said Dr. Chamberlen Mr. Cranf said because it signified Apostate Said Dr. Cha. Then why did you not rather use that Word The debate here made Dr. Chamb. forget to take notice how in denying the Baptisme of Believers and Repenters Mr. Cranf denyed the Conclusion But he proceeded to prove that they did Baptize Believers and Repenters Ma. They that baptize such as shall be saved baptize believers and repenters Minor But baptized Churches baptize such as shall be saved Con. Therefore they baptized believers and repenters Mr Cranf denyed the Major Dr. Chamb. urged Mark 16.16 Whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved Mr. Cranf denyed it Dr. Chamb. replied Contra Principia negantem non est disputandum Saith Mr. Cranf you are to prove it Dr Chamb. then argued thus Major They that baptize such as confesse with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God hath raised him from the dead Rom. 10. baptize such as shall be saved Mi. But baptized Churches baptize such as confesse with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with their heart that God hath raised him from the dead
Con. Therefore baptized Churches baptize such as shall be saved Mr. Cr. and some of his Party began to deride and say this was in gyro idem per idem All that are saved confesse and believe All that confesse and believe are saved Said Dr. Chamb. it is the greater truth in being reciprocal according to all the rules of truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With this the Company seemed to acquiesce in continuation of this promiscuous discourse Mr. Cranf used the word Renegado againe and said that baptized Churches baptized such as denyed the Faith not such as professed the Faith therefore we were all Renegadoes Dr. Chamb. replied I shall prove you so Mr. Cranf bid him do Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that practise what they neither have command nor example for practise what they should not Mi. But you who sprinkle Infants practise what you neither have command nor example for Mr. Cranf cried out is this to prove us Renegadoes Make your Conclusion Said Dr. Chamb. I was loath to use words of provocation and that are not written but Mr Cranf continuing in derision Dr. Chamb. said then I le prove you Renegadoes They that speak Lyes in Hipocrisie are Renegadoes But you speak Lyes in Hypocrisie Here the meeting broke up abruptly The last meeting between Mr. Cranford and Dr. Chamberlen at Mr. Webbs house at Bartholomew Lane end was on the 13. of April 1652. THe Question was still Whether Ministers of London Presbyterian Ministers were the Ministers of Jesus Christ Mr. Cranf as before Respondent Dr. Chamb. Opponent After Prayer as formerly the Dispute began in writing being so agreed the time before Dr. Chamb. began his Argument thus Ma. They that are Ministers of Jesus Christ are Ordained by Jesus Christ Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are not Ordained by Jesus Christ Con. Therefore they are not Ministers of Jesus Christ Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor The Ministers are Ordained by Jesus Christ Mediately Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that are Ordained by Antichrist are not Ordained by Jesus Christ Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by Antichrist Con. Therefore they are not Ordained by Jesus Christ Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares are Ordained by Antichrist Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they are Ordained by Antichrist Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that are ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor Dr. Chamb. Ma. They who were Ordained by the Bishops of England and their Successours within these thousand yeares are Ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by Bishops of England and their Successors within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they are Ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negatur Major Dr. Chamb. Ma. If they were Ordained by the Power or Ministers of the Pope c. then they were Ordained by the Pope c. Mi. But they were Ordained by the Power or Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negat Min. Dr. Chamb. Ma. If the Bishops of England within these thousand years were not Ordained by the Power nor Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Then there were some Bishops in King Henry 7. and K. Hen. 8. dayes neither Ordained by the Pope nor Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Mi. But there were no such Bishops in K. Hen. 7. nor King Hen. 8. dayes Con. Therefore they were Ordained by the Power or Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negat Mi. Dr. Chamb. Name any Mr. Cranf do you prove there were none Dr. Chamb. Ma. If there were any such then either they were allowed or disalowed Min. But there were neither any allowed nor disallowed that were such Con. Therefore there were none such Mr. Cranf Negat Minor None of the allowed Ministers were Ordained by the Pope Dr. Chamb. Ma. If the Pope had power at that time to place and displace whom he pleased then they were Ordained by the Pope Mi. But the Pope had power to place and displace whom he pleased Con. Therefore they were Ordained by the Pope Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Minor est falsa Dr. Chamb. Power of Ordination you grant is Approbation and Imposition of hands Ma. If their placing and displacing were a consequence of their Ordination then the consequence is true Mi. But their placing and displacing was a consequence of their Ordination Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Dr. Chamb. Ma. If the Pope had power of placing and displacing of Bishops then he had power of their Ordination Mi. But the Pope had power of placing and displacing of Bishops If placing and displacing of Bishops be greater then their Ordination then the Pope who did place and displace did also Ordaine Mr. Cranford Negatur consequentia The Civil Magistrate may remove or displace Ministers but may not Ordaine Ministers To place and displace is not greater then to Ordaine Dr. Chamb. Ma. If what the Pope did he did it as an Officer of the Church and it was so publickly acknowledged then the consequence is true Mi. But what the Pope did he did it as an Officer of the Church and it was so publickly acknowledged Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Though the Pope had power to do it he did not do it Some discourses as betwwen all the rest of the latter Syllogisme interrupted the clear dispute and then Dr. Chamb. followed with this argument to the discourse that was Ma. If all the particular parts and faculties of the Church of England were under the power and Ministry of the Pope of Rome then Bishops were Ordained by the power of the Pope of Rome Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Dr. Chamb. Ma. If so then Ordination is no part or faculty of the Church Mi. But Ordination is a part Ergo. Mr. Cranf Ne. consequentia Minor etiam est falsa The Church of Rome though it were Ulcerous yet was a true Church of Christ as a man is a man though full of Ulcers Truth came out of the Church of Rome The Scriptures that have been conveyed through the Church of Rome are true Scriptures Dr. Chamb. denyed that Truth came out of the Church of Rome or that the Scriptures were conveyed through the Ulcerous Church of Rome What is of their conveyance is not true Mr. Cranf often acknowledged that the Church of Rome was Ulcerous and Dr.