that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
pass'd again over the Doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture if one doubted of the Churches Authority She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture and besides she perfectly understood that Mr. Claude rejecting the Name of Doubt acknowledg'd the Thing in other terms Which serv'd only to make appear how hard this Matter was both to think and say since being forc't to own it he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms For in fine not to know whether a thing be or no if it be not to Doubt is nothing It appear'd then clearly That the two Propositions which were in debate were establisht And I shew'd Mademoiselle de Duras in few words That her Church by believing two such strange Things had chang'd the whole Order of instructing GODs Children practis'd at all times in the Christian Church For this purpose I needed only repeat to her what she had heard me say and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express and I said to her as follows The Order of instructing GODs Children is to teach them before all things the Apostles Creed I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins and the rest As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father and in his Son JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe the Universal Church where the Father where the Son where the Holy Ghost is ador'd As much I say as he believes the Father so much does he believe the Church which makes Profession to believe that GOD the Father of JESUS CHRIST has adopted Children whom he has united to his Son As much as he believes in the Son so much does he believe the Church which he has assembled by his Blood which he has establisht by his Doctrin which he has founded on the Rock and against which he has promis'd that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher And he that says I believe in GOD and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost Rom. X. v. 10. when he says I believe confesses With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation as St. Paul says and he knows that the Faith he has is not a private Sentiment There is a Church a Society of Men which believes as he does 'T is the Universal Church which is neither here nor there neither at this time nor at another She is not confin'd to one only Country like the ancient Judaical Church nor is she to end as that was Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People as 't is written in Daniel She is at all times and in all places and so dispers'd that whoever will come to her may She has no Interruption in her Succession for there is not any time when one cannot say I believe the Vniversal Church As there is not any time but one may say I believe in GOD the Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost This Church is Holy because all she teaches is holy because she teaches all the Doctrin which makes Saints that is all the Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church and this is meant by the Communion of Saints In this Universal Church in this Communion of Saints is the Remission of Sins There is Baptism by which Sins are remitted there is the Ministery of the Keys by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth Matt. xvi v. 19. John xx v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministery which lasts as long as the Church that is to say always since this Church is believ'd at all times not as a thing which has been or must be but as a thing which actually is See then to what this Church is joyn'd and what is joyn'd to this Church She is joyn'd immediatly to the Holy Ghost which governs her I believe in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church To this Church is joyn'd the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh eternal Life Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints nor Remission of Sins nor Resurrection to eternal Life Behold the Faith of the Church establisht in the Creed It makes no mention of the Scripture Is it because it despises it GOD forbid You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church and because you never doubted of the Church you shall never doubt of the Scripture which the Church has receiv'd from GOD from JESUS CHRIST and from the Apostles which she always keeps as coming from that Source which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful Methought this Doctrin truly Holy and Apostolical wrought the Effect it ought to work But there is said I one Word more 'T is what I said to Mr. Claude and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument which every one may equally understand I mean the Learned as the Ignorant and the private Person as the Pastor The baptiz'd Christian before he reads the holy Scripture can either make this Act of Faith I believe that this Word is inspir'd by GOD as I believe that GOD is or he cannot If he cannot he then doubts of it he is reduc'd to examin whether the Gospel is not a Fable But if he can make it by what means shall he do it The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart This is no Answer for it is agreed That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost The Question is concerning the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses and there can be no other but the Churches Authority Thus every Christian receives from the Church without examining this Scripture as a Writing inspir'd by GOD. Let us go a little farther Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper the Bark of the Word the Body of the Letter No without doubt she gives us the Spirit that is the Sense of the Scripture For to give us the Scripture without the Sense is to give us a Body without a Soul a Letter which kills The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense is a Knife to cut our Throats The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood so did the Nestorian so did the Pelagian GOD forbid then That the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the Sense of it She receiv'd them both together When she
the Reading of the Scripture he must also be able to shew us one that precedes the Churches Instructions but this he will never find Whatever he does we shall always mark him a a Point of time before the reading of the Scripture which is that when the Church puts it into our hand but before the Church there is nothing she prevents all our Doubts by her Instructions 'T is an Error to imagin that we must always examin before we believe The Happiness of those who are born as I may say in the Bosom of the true Church is That GOD has given her such an Authority that we believe at first what she proposes and that Faith precedes or rather excludes Examination To ask now by what Motives GOD makes us sensible of his Churches Authority is to depart visibly from the Question He wants not Motives to fasten his Children to his Church to which he has given so particular and so resplendent Characters This very thing that of all the Societies in the world she is the sole to whom none can shew her beginning or any interruption of her visible and exterior State by any averr'd Fact whilst she shews all other Societies that environ her theirs by Facts which themselves cannot deny this very thing is a sensible Character that gives an inviolable Authority to the true Church GOD wants not Motives to make his Children perceive this so particular Character of his Church But whatever these Motives are not to forestall them here this being no place for it 't is certain that there are some since that in fine we must be able to believe on the Churches word before we have read the holy Scripture and that in the first Instruction we receive without speaking of the Scripture we are taught to say as a fundamental Act of our Faith I believe the Catholick Church Mr. Claude tells us that to authorize the Method by which we pretend to lay the Churches Faith as the Foundation of all the rest the Creed should have begun with saying I believe the Church whereas it is begun with saying I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost And he considers not that 't is the Church her self which teaches us the whole Creed that 't is on her word we say I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST his only Son and the rest which we cannot say with a firm Faith unless GOD at the same time puts in our Hearts that the Church which teaches us deceives us not After then we have on her word said I believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and begun our Profession of Faith by the Divine Persons whom their Majesty places above all we add an holy Reflection on the Church which proposes to us this Belief and say I believe the Catholick Church To which we immediatly after joyn all the Graces we receive by her Ministery the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Blessed Resurrection and in fine Everlasting Life The Fifth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty 'T IS to shew a desire of embroling matters to alledge here with Mr. Claude the Greek Church the Armenian the Egyptian or Aethiopick and that of the Cophti and so many others which brag no less of being the true Church than the Roman does Those say they who are bred up in these Churches revere their Authority every one of these Churches has Followers as zealous as ours True and pure zeal has no sensible Mark every one attributes his as we do to the Grace of the Holy Ghost and resting on the Authority of the Church in which he is says That the Holy Ghost makes use of this Authority to guide him to the Belief of the Scripture and all the Verities of Christianity This is in a manner Mr. Claude's Objection and thus sometimes when Men cannot free themselves they endeavour to cast others into the like Perplexity as theirs But he will gain nothing by this Address for in fine what cause does he pretend to combat for is it for indifferency of Religions Will he say with the wicked that there is not a true Church in which men indeed act by divine Motions And under pretence that the Devil or if he pleases Nature can imitate or to say better counterfeit these Motions will he maintain that they are every where imaginary GOD forbid we will both of us avoid this Rock He will avow then with me that there is a true Church which soever it is where the Holy Ghost acts thô by looking only on the exterior we cannot always so easily discern who those are in whom he dwells Hitherto we are agreed let us see now how far we can go together We agree that there is one true Church in which the Holy Ghost acts we agree that he makes use of exterior Means to put the Truth in our Hearts we agree that he makes use of the Church and of the Scripture Our question is to know by which he begins whether by the Scripture or by the Church whether I say he makes us believe the Church by the Scripture or rather makes us believe the Scripture by the Church I say that the Holy Ghost begins by the Church and it must be so since 't is manifestly the Church that puts the Scripture in our hands Nevertheless Mr. Claude leaves me here and begins to walk alone but he falls at the very first step into a Precipice For his Fear of acknowledging an infallible Authority in the true Church and of believing that on her word we may make an Act of divine and super-natural Faith concerning the Scripture obliges him to say that 't is not possible to begin the reading of the Holy Scripture by such an Act of Faith and that every Act of Faith which precedes this Reading is an Act of human Faith See the deporable Condition in which he puts a Christian at his first going to read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude cannot get forth of this Abyss without returning to the place where he began to leave me and saying afterwards with me that there is a true Church wheresoever she is the veneration of which the Holy Ghost first inspires into true Believers that by this Veneration which he at first puts in their Hearts he fixes them to the Scripture which this Church presents them that this Church requires also of all those she can instruct that they adore upon her word the infallible Truth of this Scripture and acknowledges not for her Children those which have only an human Faith for it But say they the Roman Church is not the sole which attributes to her self this Authority the Greek and other Churches will have one believe them on their word and teach that this is the Means to read the Holy Scripture with the
of Piety of real Sanctity Where then the Profession is wanting there are neither true Believers nor a true Church But moreover this is visibly not so else when Luther appear'd and Zuinglius innovated their Disciples must have made this Declaration This is what we always believ'd we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith and from the Pope and from Bishops and from the Real Presence and from Confession and from Communion under one Kind and from Relicks and from Images and from Prayer to Saints and from the Merit of Works Where are those who spake in this manner Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them On the contrary are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak as newly retir'd out of the Darkness of the Papacy and does not Luther glory at their head that he was the first who declar'd the Gospel All the Reformed grant it except Zuinglius who disputes this Honor with him He in the mean time acknowledges that he was the sincerest Monk the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists Do not the others use the same Language Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes who not only durst not declare their Faith whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church but after they were gone out of it durst not say they had always held in their heart the same Faith But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation In the Definition that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church he says 'T is the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one If before the Refomation there was no such Church the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was and if there were such a Church where Profession was made of the Truth and which by her Ministery gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds Separation Is it perhaps that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass and teach all the Doctrins which our Reformed have alledg'd for the Cause of their Rupture To think it only would be the greatest of Absurdities But it may be in teaching all these Doctrins they had not yet thought of excommunicating those that oppos'd them Whence then come so many Anathemaes against â—erengarius against the Waldenses and Albigenses against John Wickcliff and John Hus whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors What then had not those who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth that is according to Mr. Claude of the Reformed Doctrin yet found the Invention of making a Schism and was all the World agreed to suffer them But should all this be true the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better since still before it had any Existence there must be acknowledg'd a Ministery where without teaching either that the Sinner is justify'd by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordiâ—ate Prayer which is address'd to Saints or in fine without any of those Articles which distinguish our Reformed from us althô they place their Salvation in them they ceas'd not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary foâ— the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one What has the Reformation wrought if all these things are not necessary Aliments if even the Sacred Cup and consequently the Supper which according to our Pretended Reformed cannot subsist without the Cup is none of these Aliments necessary to the Christians Faith How they have tormented themselves in vain and how unadvisedly they have caus'd so many Troubles and shed so much Blood if these things are not necessary Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduc'd to the Apostles Creed or in general to the Scripture But the Socinian Church remins this Creed and this Scripture so that the Ministery of a Socinian Church would according to this Rule have furnisht the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one What then at last will these necessary Aliments be and if they are furnisht without the Substraction of any one only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture in what Heresy have they been wanting The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself Man Ans 4. q. the more he is intangled For after he has establisht as a Fundamental Truth that GOD always preservos in the Ministery all that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers and bring them to Salvation he says it does not thence follow that the Ministery is exempt from all Error even in its Decisions but that whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience or even concern Salvation the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil and preserve Purity Thus all would be reduc'd to Liberty of Conscience and what Error soever is taught in the Ministery provided they force none to follow their Decisions and suffer all contrary Doctrin good or bad 't is enough to make Mr. Claude say that the Ministery furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one But according to this Pretention there would be no Society whose Ministery should more furnish all necessary Aliments than a Society of Socinians who brag that they will not damn any one If it be said amongst our Reformed that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST 't is also said there that 't was no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries which as they say reign'd every where And if they will in fine imagin that 't is more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions which they call Idolatry besides all the Substractions we have just now shewn there according to the Principles of the Reformed and even before their Reformation it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe that it would be more easy for these true Believers who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrins under a Ministery full of Errors to cut off what is superfluous than to supply what is defective or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing than by adding the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those that diminish as those that add 'T would be better then for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉 and the perpeâ—â—al Visibility of the Church and 〈…〉 't is in fine sufficient all this Visibility being 〈◊〉 that GOD has preserv'd the Holy Scripture where the Faithful whether conceal'd or open
their Deputation or as they term it their Envoy had not this Clause of Submission The Churches were difficultly brought to make an Oath so little agreeable to the Doctrin they were inspir'd with and to swear against the Principles of the new Reformation such a Submission to an Assembly which after all whatever Name might be given it was but an Assembly of Men still according to their Principles liable to mistake but they must pass through it They said they did nothing if they did not at last oblige men to an absolute Submission and that to leave them liberty to examin after the last and final Resolution was to nourish Pride Dissention and Schism Thus against the Principles of the new Reformation were they fain to give other Idea's and 't was resolv'd to stick unalterably to the Submission and Oath in the Terms we have observ'd The Reason us'd by the Synod of Rochel to oblige the Provinces to this Clause of Submission to such things as should be resolv'd in the National Synod is That 't was necessary to the Validity of the Assemblies Conclusions In the general to render the Acts of an Assembly valid 't would be sufficient for those of whom it should be compos'd to have a Power of bringing to it the Suffrages of those that send them and the Deputies as well of the Colloquies as of the Provincial Synods came always furnisht with such Powers But there was something more strong requir'd for the National Synod and since the last Resolution was to be made to render such an Act valid and give it all its force 't was thought necessary it should be preceded by a Submission as absolute as the Resolution ought to appear irrevocable To this Decision of the Synod of Rochel that of Tonneins added Ibid. That the Submission should be promis'd in proper terms to all that should be concluded and decreed WITHOVT CONDITION AND MODIFICATION Now this is nothing but a Clause of Civility and a conditional Promise that might be made if they would not only to the Provincial Synods to the Colloquy and Consistory but also to every particular Minister Nevertheless they neither make it to these particular Ministers nor to this Consistory nor to these Colloquies nor to these Provincial Synods why so but to reserve something peculiar and proper to the Assembly where the final Resolution is to be made after which there remains nothing but to obey But if all that is here particular and proper be at the bottom only Words was this worth employing the Churches of the new Reformation and five or six of their National Synods This is what they ought to explicate if they would say any thing yet they speak not one word of it thô this Difficulty flies as one may say in their faces and that I have started it expresly In fine To reduce my Argument in few words every Oath ought to be founded on a certain and known Truth Now this Promise made to the National Synod and confirm'd by the solemn Oath of all the Pretended Reformed Churches We swear and promise to follow your Decisions being perswaded that you will judge well this Promise I say which way soever it be turn'd has no Certainty but in one of these two Senses The first We swear and promise to follow your Decisions if we find you judge well a thing indeed very certain but at the same time illusory since there is no person on the earth to whom one may not say as much and as I observ'd in the Conference Mr. Claude may say it to me as well as I to him The Second We are so perswaded you will judge well that we swear and promise to follow your Decisions in which Case the Oath is false if we are not throughly assur'd that the Assembly 't is made to cannot judge amiss All the Pretended Reformed have now to do is to choose which they will of these two Senses one of which is a manifest Illusion and the other which seems also the only natural Sense clearly supposes the Churches Infallibility Nor must they answer here That this Submission respects only publick Order and Discipline for in matter of Faith a Decision obliges to nothing less than what the Apostle St. Paul says Rom. 10. 10. To believe with the Heart and confess with the Mouth And our Reformed themselves understand it so when they declare in their Discipline That the Effect of this their National Synods last and final Decision is Vid. sup p. 13. That it may be acquiesc'd in from point to point with an express disowning of the contrary Doctrin He then who swears to submit to a Decision that shall be made in an Assembly swears to believe with his Heart and confess with his Mouth the Doctrin which shall be there decided But for the making this Promise and confirming it with an Oath 't is requisite the Assembly 't is made to should have a Divine Promise of being assisted by the Holy Ghost which is That it should be infallible Mr. Claude insinuated in the Conference That there was in effect a Divine Promise That those who sought should find and that the Oath of his Churches might have its foundation in this Assurance But he will never by this Answer get out of the Difficulty he is in For to render the Oath conformable to the Promise it must be conditional as the Promise is and as JESUS CHRIST said If you search well you shall find the sense of the Oath should also be If you do your Duty we will believe you which would be to fall again into the pitiful Illusion we have rejected To the end then the Oath we treat of may be made without rashness it must be founded on an absolute Promise from GOD on a Promise which secures us even against the Infidelities of men such as JESUS CHRIST makes his Church when he indefinitly and absolutely assures her Mat. 16. v. 18. That the 〈◊〉 of Hell shall not prevail against her As long as our Reformed shall persist in denying That the Authority of the Churches Decisions is founded on this Promise their Oath will be always an Illusion or a manifest Rashness and they will find themselves forc't either to defer more than they are willing to the Churches Authority or to acknowledge That they have by magnificent words impos'd on the Peoples Credulity since that after having distinguisht the Churches last Decision from all the rest by so remarkable a Character and so particular a Protestation of Submission 't will be found in the bottom That this Submission confirm'd by so singular an Oath is of no other Nature or Kind than what is naturally due to all Ecclesiastical Assemblies and every lawful Pastor that is one may always proceed from it to new Doubts and still examin after the last Resolution as after all the rest 'T is thus indeed according to the Principles of the new Reformation but the Principles of the new
whether dispers'd or re-united whether always subsisting or sometimes wholly extinct shall clearly find according to his Principles without any need of the Ministery all necessary Aliments For also of what use is a Ministery to them in which Error prevail And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them This is what the 〈◊〉 should say to avoid the Inconveniences into which we cast them But Mr. Claude neither durst nor ever will dare to do it because he would find in it Inconveniences yet more insupportable and more visible 'T is in a word because he sound that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency as I may say of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministery they must at last destroy the Scripture it self In effect Rom. 1. ◠10. he found in the Scripture that the Scripture ought not to be Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republick in Idea but of a People always subsisting which this Scripture calls the Church He has found that this People ought to be always visible on the earth since they ought not only to believe with the Heart but also to confes◠with the Mouth and to use his Terms make Profession of the Christian Truth He has found that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People to be their unchangeable Rule that there should be always Interpreters establisht by GOD the Author of this Scripture as well as the Founder of this People and that so the Ministery destin'd by GOD to this Interpretation was as eternal as the Church it self If he writ these great Words GOD always preserves in the publick Ministery all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation Man Ans 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministery to it self it must fall If then it be certain that GOD will always keep there all that is necessary to Salvation GOD himself must have promis'd it and the Eternity of the Ministery cannot be founded but on this Promise Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words Thou art Peter Matt. xvi v. 18. and the rest 'T is thence he concludes with us that JESUS CHRIST in speaking to a Church that confesses and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers since 't is by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles to a Church joyn'd to an exterior Ministery and using the Power of the Keys has promis'd her that Hell should not prevail against her consequently supported by this Ministery and therefore he affirms that GOD preserves always in the publick Ministery all that is necessary to the Salvation of GODs Children Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. directed to those that baptize and those that teach and concluded by these powerful Words And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World makes Mr. Claude as well as us say that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her Ibid. to baptize with her and to teach with her without interruption even to the end of the World Thus according to this Minister this Promise regards the Church as joyn'd to the Ecclesiastical Ministery which makes him also conclude that JESUS CHRIST promises the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministery but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World In fine Eph. iv Man Ans Ibid. a third Passage to wit that of St. Paul to the Ephefians makes him conclude with us that the Ministery shall last even to the end of the World and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST and bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks GOD then must concern himself with it without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministery After he had thus begun to believe he should have finish◠the Work and given Glory to GOD even to the end Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD when he said that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity to preserve always manger the Efforts of Hell a Church which should confess the Truth and an exterior Ministery which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments necessary to Salvation He ought then to proceed to the end and believe that the same Hand which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministery as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments would hinder it also from prevailing so far as to make any Error have dominion in it and that so much the rather as what he believ'd manifestly comprehends what is left to believe For if he believ'd on the Faith of the Divine Promise that there should be always a Church with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church he ought by the same means to believe that he would teach there all Truth JESVS CHRIST not being come Joh. xvi v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths but to teach them all Truth as himself declares in his Gospel Nor would it be to any purpose to say that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministery only sufficient Aliments which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans For JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin containing nothing but what is profitable Is 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things if we find not in the Ministery JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin entire we shall never find that Degree requir'd by Mr. Claude nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks 'T would be then something to believe that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministery all essential Truths for 't would be to acknowledge in the Church with which JESUS CHRIST teaches a beginning of infallible Authority by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity But to finish the Work and not to believe by halves we must also believe that JESUS CHRIST in teaching teaches all and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock This Ecclesiastical Ministery is of men subject to fall one may doubt after them for this would be to yield to the Temptation and no longer to believe the Promise We must say 't is of men with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be and teach always then manger human weakness and all the Endeavours of Hell Rom. iv v. 18. against hope we believe in hope that we shall find eternally in their common
Revelation the Church which is but the bare Interpreter No Sir reply'd I I equal not the Church to St. Paul but I say that to pretend one ought to be Believ'd without examining when one thinks to act only as an Instrument of which the Holy Ghost makes use is not to have Dominion over the Conscience as the Example of St. Paul demonstrates Besides I pretend not to equal the Churches Authority to the Apostolical The Apostles were Authors of the Revelation as you have very well said that is they first receiv'd the Truths which it pleas'd GOD to reveal The Church is only the Interpreter and Depositary But saving this essential Difference between the Apostles and the Church I say That the Church is as much inspir'd to Interpret as the Apostles were to Establish and that holding the Grace of Interpretation from the same Spirit which gave the first Revelation to the Apostles she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in Interpreting than the Apostles did in Establishing But that both the one and the other cause the Holy Ghost to have Dominion over them according to the Measure which is given to every one It must be prov'd said Mr. Claude that the Church has receiv'd a like Grace There 's no need of proving answer'd I immediately 't is sufficient to shew that the Passage you alledge is not concluding To this there was nothing said But if I remember well Mr. Claude exaggerated a little how strange it was that we would oblige Men to believe the Church like GOD himself upon her bare Word without making use for the Interpretation of Scripture of the Reason GOD has given us that those of Beraea did not so and that the Apostle according to our Opinion was much to blame for letting them examin his Preachings I answer'd That there was a very great Difference between the Faithful already Children of the Church and subjected to her Authority and those that still doubted whether they should enter into her Bosom That those of Beraea were in this last Condition and the Apostle would not by any means propose to 'em the Churches Authority of which they doubted But that the Faithful were not instructed in the same manner after the Councel of Jerusalem There the Apostles decided by Authority of the Holy Ghost Act. XV. v. 28. Act. XVI v. 4. It has seemed good say they to the Holy Ghost and to us What do Paul and Silas Carriers of the Councels Letter after this They went through the Cities as 't is in the Acts What to cause the Counceâ— of Jerusalem's Decree to be there examin'd 'T would have been to examin after the Holy Ghost himself What then They went through the Cities delivering them the Decrees for to keep that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders which were at Jerusalem See the Order The Examen in the Councel the Obedience without examining after the Decision the Examen in those of Beraea that is in those who not being in the Church have yet no Authority to regulate them Submission without examining in those who being already in the Church are only to hear her Decrees 'T is their Happiness to be in a Body which guided by the Holy Ghost can never be deceiv'd and by that means be deliver'd from the Danger of an Examen the end of which would perhaps be Error The Conference had already lasted four Hours I already had from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment one of the Propositions I would make him confess to wit That every particular Person ought to believe he may understand the Holy Scripture better than the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church He must yet own the other Proposition no less Important and see how GOD brought him to it As he had spoken much of this Dominion of the Church over Consciences repeating three or four times That we gave her the Respect which was due to none but GOD alone when we believ'd her without Examining I told him he need not make so strange of a thing which they did as well as we and upon that I askt him Whether a Believer at his first Receiving the Holy Scripture from the Church were oblig'd first to doubt and after to examin whether the Book she put into his Hand were truly inspir'd by GOD or no. If this Believer examins and doubts he renounces the Faith and begins the reading of the Gospel by an Act of Infidelity and if he doubts not he then receives without examining the Authority of the Church which presents him the Gospel To this see Mr. Claude's Answer The Believer you suppose who has not read the Holy Scripture and into whose Hands 't is put to speak properly doubts not he is ignorant He knows not what this Scripture is which he is told is inspir'd by GOD. He has heard his Father and those who instructed him say That 't was divinely inspir'd He yet knows no other Authority but theirs and as for what concerns the Scripture he knows not what it is Thus he cannot be said to be Unbelieving or Incredulous And pray Sir said he let me make you the same Argument upon the Church as you make me upon the Scripture The Believer to whom the Churches Authority is propos'd either believes it without examining or doubts If he doubts he is an Infidel If he doubts not by what Authority is he assur'd Is the Churches Authority a thing evident of it self and must be not find it by some Examen This is your Difficulty which you have to solve as well as I either let us quit 'em both or resolve 'em both together I declare to you that I will answer for the Scripture what you shall answer me for the Church I understand you answer'd I but before I explain to you how the Christian believes the Church let us first settle the Matter that is in question Is it not evident Sir amongst you as well as amongst us That when the Holy Scripture is shewn to Children educated in the Church 't is shewn them as a Book inspir'd by GOD and I ask whether they cannot when they are caus'd to read something in it make this Act of Faith I certainly believe that what I am going to read is GODs Word Mr. Claude answer'd here That those of whom I spake to him had yet no divine Faith concerning the Authority of the Scripture but a bare human Perswasion grounded on the Deference they had for their Parents and that they were but Catechumens Catechumens Sir said I. You must not if you please speak so They are Christians they are baptiz'd they have in them the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd they are in the Covenant according to you they have receiv'd Baptism as a Seal of the Covenant to which they are admitted and as the Covenant is seal'd in them by the exterior Seal of Baptism the Holy Ghost seals it interiorly in their Hearts Know your own Doctrin Upon this said Mr. Claude you know
not She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministery GOD forbid See how he cries out against this Abomination to say that the Ministery can be lost in the Church There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers since to transmit the Ministery after the ordinary manner 't is not requisite for the Ministery to be pure 't is sufficient that it is And thô for the transmitting of it there should be requir'd as Mr. Claude speaks not only Ministers of good Doctrin but also of good Life and good Example 't is as sure that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People as 't is that there will be always true Believers since that all the Ministery as well as the People must be there mixt of Good and Bad till the final Separation at the last Judgment Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESVS CHRISTs Church and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplor'd Cause And to see what an Overthrow to JESVS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces we need only consider the Promises of JESVS CHRIST and see in what it has pleas'd him principally to establish the Strength of his Church She is strong she is invincible because JESUS CHRIST has said Mat. xvi v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her But he did not say that Hell should not prevail against her till after he had said Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church adding presently after I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven 'T is then in the Ministery confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST and using the Authority of the Keys that JESUS CHRIST has principally establisht the Strength of his Church And to whom did he say I am with you even unto the end of the world Matt. xxviii v. 20. but to those to whom he said â—â—ach and baptize All the Church is comprehended in this Promise who knows it not But JESUS CHRIST would shew the Truth of this Doctrin Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST and this is the Church the People united with their Bishop and the Flock joyn'd to their Pastor where 't is clear that we must understand as he says elsewhere Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. Tr. de vnit Ecc. c. this Pastor united with all his Collegues and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy so often establisht in his Writings 'T is then with reason that JESUS CHRIST would shew the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministery and 't is manifestly seen that 't is to those who teach he would say I am always with you And what is here more admirable is that these Promises are so evident that Mr. Claude against the Prepossessions of his Religion was forc't to acknowledg them such as I have now explicated them For we have heard him tell us that 't is in effect of a confessing Church of a Church which publishes the Faith of a Church which uses the Ministery that JESUS CHRIST has pronounc'd that Hell should not prevail against her V. sup xi Ref. p. 99. seq And because JESUS CHRIST after he had said Teach and baptize adds I am with you Mr. Claude concludes as we do that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church that he affirms he will be with her baptize with her and teach with her even unto the end of the world 'T is then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministery which is principally comprehended in this Promise 't is principally in this that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church In the mean time against all this Order we are shewn the Ministery so weak and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST that it falls all together in one moment and on the contrary particular Believers so strong that they alone establish all the Ministery extraordinarily rais'd without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration Who does not then see that all is overturn'd in the new Reformation and that to say with them that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church to depose by their means all the Pastors and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministery by the common ways establisht in his word and always observ'd in his Church is to say that he would set up a Church in a manner contrary to that he has reveal'd and has always caus'd to be follow'd by his Church Or rather 't is to say that he would have this Church form'd after a manner so new amongst Chriâ—â—â—ans bear in its Original without ever being able to efface it the manifest Character of its Falsity But let us come to these true Believers of whom Mr. Claude brags to us I am not contented to dispute with them the Power he has given them to depose all their Pastors and make others I say that these true Believers never were There must notwithstanding according to this Minister have been true Believers even in the Bosom of the Roman Church for since according to his Doctrin there must be acknowledg'd without any Interruption an Ecclesiastical Ministery and an exterior Profession of which might have been said There are the true Believers they were true Believers under that Ministery and in that Profession whence they went forth I ask did they communicate in the Sacrifice where Saints are invocated where their Relicks and Images are honour'd where the Pope is nam'd as the Head of the Orthodox where JESUS CHRIST is ador'd as present in Body and Soul where he is offer'd where the Holy Sacrament is receiv'd under one Kind Not to communicate in this Sacrifice and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there were manifestly to separate and they are suppos'd not to have done that yet but if they communicated there continuing true Believers in what an Error are now all our Reformed who believe not themselves to have been true Believers till since they left communicating there Thus these true Believers are People in the Air 1 Kin. xix v. 18. these seven thousand so much bragg'd of in the new Reformation and by Mr. Claude Man Ans 2 part are so far from appearing that they are not in nature since before the Separation there was not any one who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host which our Reformed look on as Baal before whom one must not bow the Knee They say that these true Believers who by their actual separating compos'd the Reformation were before separated in heart from the publick Idolatry But first this is not sufficient secondly 't is not so This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude since he will have a Church always visible since he has just now defin'd the Church to be the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth