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A57981 A survey of the Survey of that summe of church-discipline penned by Mr. Thomas Hooker ... wherein the way of the churches of N. England is now re-examined ... / by Samuel Rutherfurd ... Rutherford, Samuel, 1600?-1661. 1658 (1658) Wing R2395; ESTC R19199 491,661 530

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I shall not undertake to reconcile our Brethrens charity and their faith when the Lord shall fulfil the Prophesies Isa. 2. 19 c. And what reason is there I pray you to say People are visibly redeemed but not visibly chosen to glory for the act of redeeming is not Christs visibly dying on the Cross for that Redemption material was visibly to no generations before that crucifying of Christ or to us but it is the laying down of the ransom of that noble life for such a certain number of Elect not one moe not one fewer than are written in the Lambs Book of Life I am of that opinion I hope with our Brethren and this is as much hid and invisible to man until their godly walk make their redemption in its effects to be visible as their eternal Election to glory therefore I much wonder of Mr. Lockyers asserting from Acts 15. but I hope my Reverend Brother Mr. Iames Wood hath by this silenced him for we look for onely silence from him except some other lewd brotherly help that the proper and allowed matter of a visible Church now in the dayes of the Gospel is persons truly converted such as God who knoweth the hearts of all men can bear witness of as indeed sealed by his holy Spirit I say This is the matter that we ought now to take to raise again the Tabernacle of David and none other no not in a whole Church as for that so far as very spiritual men can judge It s a dreadful addition to the Word CHAP. XVIII Answer to Mr. Hookers Arguments That the invisible Church is not the first subject of the Seals Me. H. Ar. 1. If those who were graceless and had no interest in Christ had yet a command from Christ to receive the Seals had warrant from his Word to require them then they had a right outward and visible in foro Ecclesiae to partake of them for there is no better right than Gods Command to enjoyn and his Word to warrant us to challenge any priviledge But many graceless who were no invisible members Ishmael Esau and all the males were enjoyned to be circumcised and all the houses of Israel to eat the Passover Ans. 1. What is in question is not proved to wit That the priviledges of special note in the Mediator Christ i. e. saving priviledges as Mr. R. often teacheth pag. 244 245. belong not to the invisible Church as to the proper and first subject But Mr. H. proves That external signs and external right to the Seals in foro Ecclesiae are bestowed upon rotten Members Magus and others 2. He ought to prove the visible Church is the onely principal subject of the seals as he elswhere asserts But this Argument proves it not 3. He frames the Argument of Infants who have right to be circumcised who have no command of Christ for Infants are not capable of commands or threatnings and brings not instances of these come to age under the New Testament 4. A graceless man as Magus hath thus far right to demand the Seals that he may say to the Church You sin in withholding the Seals and therefore I require you baptize me as Christ hath commanded you but he cannot say I have right even external to receive Baptism and I sin not in receiving it And Mr. H. Argument to prove it is naught Why saith he Graceless men have the command of God to challenge the Seals Magus hath the command of God to challenge and to receive the Lords Supper A command absolute he hath none shew me such a command Magus Iudas eat and drink at the Lords Supper challenge claim and receive Baptism All Israel eat the Passover be ye real believers or hypocrites be ye self-triers and prepared or not be ye clean or unclean I confess there were no better right to challenge the Seals than such a command if any such were but if Mr. H. or any of his reade such a command I pray I may see and reade also But Magus hath onely a conditional command which gives him no true and real right save onely conditionally to wit Magus receive the Seals and the Lords Supper so thou believe and examine thy self if not thou hast no right to the seals but eatest and drinkest thine own damnation And because these graceless men fulfil not the condition and believe not Mr. H. his Argument is wa●●ry They have right from the command of God which is the b●… right that is they have no right at all from a conditional command they not fulfilling the condition but such right as Robbers have to the Travellers purse yea they have no command of God but the contrary a severe discharge Isa. 1. 13. Bring no more vain oblations Matth. 22. 12. Friend how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment He that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to himself 1 Cor. 11. 29. Mr. H. p. 42. Iob and his godly friends were invisible Members but being strangers they are forbidden to eat the Passover Ergo the seals belong not to invisible Members Ans. 1. The thing denied is not concluded Iob and his godly friends had the marrow of the Seals and wanted some external signs which are not saving priviledges as I alledge pag. 244. That Iob was not circumcised possibly is said not proved by Mr. H. 2. My minde is not to deny that the visible acts of eating drinking being washed in Baptism belong not to visible believers as visible taking visible as coincident with real believers for invisible men can no more visibly partake of Ordinances than Spirits can be baptized and eat the Lords Supper 3. Iob and his godly friends were not forbidden to be circumcised nor to sacrifice Iob sacrificed warrantably Iob 1. c. 42. Iob professeth he was visibly in Covenant Iob 13. 16. and 19. 25. I know that my Redeemer liveth And so they were neither invisible Members onely nor debarred from the seals Nay Proselytes were admitted to the seals Mr. H. 〈◊〉 41. If the invisible Church be the first subject of the seals the invisible Church must have the seals firstly and the visible Church secondarily as heat is first in the element of fire and secondarily in things hot by participation as iron Ans. It is no Logick If the invisible and real believer for example Peter be the first subject of the seals including Christ signified in them then to receive the seals worthily agree first to Peter and to invisible real believers and secondarily to these same invisible believers as they do visibly declare by their savoury conversation that they are really believers but there is no real transmigration of accidents out of one subject to another that is cold Logick but such real and internal right to the seals and to Christ and his grace signified by the seals do neither firstly nor secondarily belong to such visible Saints as Magus and Iudas yea